“I have certain misgivings about Vista resembling Mac OS X. With its translucent windows, such comparisons are going to be hard to avoid. But Vista’s similarity with OS X goes well beyond window dressing. Certain applications, such as Calendar, Sidebar, and Photo Gallery, appear to be directly, ahem, influenced by similar applications in OS X. Microsoft has a response to that claim, which I’ll reveal in part 3 of this review, but suffice to say they’re going to get eaten alive for these similarities,” Thurrott writes.
Thurrott also claims, “Of course, Windows Vista is still Windows, and that means you can be far more productive with Vista than is possible with OS X, especially if you’re a heavy keyboard user like me. Virtually all of the familiar Windows keyboard shortcuts work just fine in Vista, and since the system is basically laid out just like XP–with a familiar Start menu, taskbar, desktop, and folder structure, most users will be able to get right to work.”
MacDailyNews Take: That assumes you’re a Windows user for life and you’re incapable of ever unlearning keyboard commands for the bad copy of the old classic Mac OS that is Windows and learning the more productive Mac OS X way. That’s way too big an assumption for us. Familiarity doesn’t breed productivity; it helps, but it doesn’t trump a thoughtfully-designed UI in the hands of a power user. That way-too-big finger stretch from the command key in Windows to any letter key is just one example. On a Mac, it’s done right, with the command key more centrally-located, right next to the spacebar. On WIndows, you have to perform feats that would make Stretch Armstrong proud. Multiply that by thousands of other Windows UI mistakes and the end result doesn’t equal “far more productive.” Windows wasn’t designed to be more productive for the user, it was designed like an upside down and backwards Mac in an unsuccessful attempt to avoid triggering a lawsuit from Apple.
Talking about the 6-8 new Windows Vista versions, Thurrott continues, “it’s too confusing. One thing Apple gets right is that you get OS X, and you’re done. There’s only one version of the OS (well, there’s a version for servers too, of course) and Apple doesn’t try to bifurcate the market with a bunch of silly versions, most of which offers certain features not found in other product editions. It’s inane.”
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: Anyone who claims Microsoft is an innovator with Windows only need look at Apple’s OS release dates versus Microsoft’s throughout history. On every single day of the last twenty-two years (Macintosh debuted on January 24, 1984), Apple’s operating system UI was first, ahead, and leading the way and Microsoft copied it later – usually poorly. But, hey, there’s always one exception, so thanks to Microsoft (or whoever thought it up first) for that Mac OS X Command-Tab thing that we never use.
[UPDATE: 10:27am EST: Revised first “Take” description of Mac command key location on keyboard.]
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meatofmoose:
What I’m pointing out is that the vast majority of comparisons of OS X to Windows *are* only skin-deep. As for admiration being not well-placed, this gets to the heart of one of the issues: the computer is a tool. There is no reason to get deeply emotionally involved–it’s not going to love you back. This has nothing to do with admiration; it has to do with facts (I’ve given a couple of very real, very important examples, not just vague references to “ostensible design advantages”) about the underlying architectures of both platforms. These aren’t just any “well-made bricks;” these are at the foundation.
Inevitably there are going to be similarities between Windows and the Mac, and that is a great testament to the genius of Engelbart’s original GUI concepts (check out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8734787622017763097&q=engelbart). There is a strength for users in having so much similarity between UIs across so many different platforms–MacOS, Windows, Solaris, Linux (GNOME/KDE), BeOS, Amiga, PalmOS, etc. etc. But there seems to be a tendency among the Mac advocates to get very persnickety about certain things they feel they “own.” It reminds me of an uptight neighbor that thinks you’re copying everything they do to their house, lawn, car, etc. You might not give a rat’s behind what they do, but should they really take offense that after they put up a tree in their yard, you did too? Nevermind that yours is a maple and theirs is an apple tree, or that you want shade for the house and they want fruit, or even that you ordered yours months before they did but didn’t plant it until after. This isn’t some giant conspiracy to steal all Apple’s ideas, and besides, many of them weren’t originally Apple ideas anyways. To me, there is a bit of paranoia at work. What do they really want? Would they feel much better about themselves if Apple had originally came up with the GUI and mouse concepts, and to this day the only GUI computer available would be from Apple? I’m not really sure what is motivating people when they say things like Windows is “an inferior copy of OS X.” Would I say that OS X is an inferior copy of Windows because it has kludgy 64-bit support? No, it has inferior 64-bit support, but it’s not a copy. Would I say that the MacOS is copying Microsoft because they introduced pre-emptive multitasking years after Windows? No, that’s silly.
I’m not denigrating OS X as being merely attractive. I *am* denigrating those comparisons between Windows and the Mac which are very superficial and focus almost solely on reactions to the GUI. I totally agree that the UI is very important, and yes, it is the human interface (for most humans) to the computer. I also realize very well that there is more to OS X than the GUI… but what is rarely discussed–beyond saying that “it’s UNIX-based,” which doesn’t tell one much–is how those underlying pieces compare to those in Windows. Furthermore, I don’t want to give the impression that the Windows GUI should be dismissed, either, as there are plenty of things that can be compared and discussed about that, also (though I think there is a good chance that discussion would be completely dismissed on this site). This isn’t about praise/admiration and denigration at all–OS X is a fine OS. This is simply about looking at the facts and acknowledging that the Windows OS has many distinct, important technological superiorities compared to OS X.
Billy Ash:
I too was a Windows guy who considered switching, but my choice was made back during the Windows98/Me days. Needless to say, I wound up taking the plunge and have never looked back. I c
That said, your point about what Windows does right, as well as what luxuries a commanding market share will provide, are well taken – and too poorly considerd by most of the posters you will find here. XP is NOT Me, and does have enough good points to make anyone using it feel a degree of comfort. Which brings us the ‘Inertia Factor’ – the REAL hurdle to Mac adoption – and you are a good example of that in action. You needed The Push, based on your own requirements, to overcome your already well- established Windows Routines. And you didn’t find it. Everyone else using Windows will have a similar bar to clear, though some will look to different types of Pushes (system performance, keyboard shortcuts, software compatibility, etc…)
All in all, I found the part of Thurott’s article that MDN DIDN’T reprint to be the most troubling for the future: “For now, please understand that I was getting ready to be very negative about this build. I was prepared to be unimpressed. But Microsoft has pulled a fast one. The February CTP isn’t just good, it’s great. In fact, I’m feeling better about Windows Vista than I have in a long, long time.”
And THAT, folks, is why Apple’s momentum is going to die out. As Vista becomes more refined (it will), and as M$ plugs enough security holes (they will), and as more OSX exploits – harmless or not – are reported on (they will be), I think we’ll be seeing a re-solidifiying of Window’s marketshare position. Apple will be stuck around 5% – 10% at the most. That’s great news for Apple in the short term, but long term they really won’t have improved their position much. And if the Macintel transition doesn’t provide the benefits people are expecting (truly better performance and radically different products have just NOT shown up), when they are expecting them, I could easily forsee an actual collapse.
Consider if M$ is smart enough to parlay their role as HD-DVD ‘spoiler’ into something broader – i.e. as a champion of Fair Use Rights. Right now, Apple is on just entering the doorway to the wrong side of this issue. The whole Macintel deal is based on locking computers down, not encouraging fair use, in order to satisfy the content providers (of which Jobs has now become one himself – at Pixar/Disney). If that ‘black hat’ perception on Jobs gets any traction, it would be a really powerful – and more than a bit ironic – tool M$ could use against us.
They latter is all supposition of course, but not too wildly so. In any event, I don’t think we should be taking Vista lightly at all. If it’s ‘just good enough’, AND Gates somehow channels his soft & fuzzy philanthropic persona into his business strategy vis a vis consumers & DRM, we could be looking at a whole new ball-game that no one on the Mac side seems prepared for – that of our favorite OS being portrayed as the bad guy.
yikes.
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Blu Vg:
Where do I start?
“But there seems to be a tendency among the Mac advocates to get very persnickety about certain things they feel they “own.””
I am not “persnickety” about Microsoft copying or imitating Apple’s OS X. In fact, I rather enjoy seeing MS desperately trying to catch up with OS X by attempting to duplicate the same features designed by Apple.
“This isn’t some giant conspiracy to steal all Apple’s ideas, and besides, many of them weren’t originally Apple ideas anyways.”
This simple begs the question, why has it taken Microsoft so long to develop Vista and so quickly butcher Longhorn if, as you claim, these ideas were known years ago? It seems obvious that bringing an idea to commercial relevance is the important thing. For example, Lewis and Clark would have no historical importance if they simply had the “idea” of traveling to the Pacific coast but did nothing but sit on their front porches in Virginia.
“Inevitably there are going to be similarities between Windows and the Mac, and that is a great testament to the genius of Engelbart’s original GUI concepts.”
Inevitably, there are going to be similarities between Yugo SV and the Infiniti M, and that is a great testament to the genius of Gottlieb Daimler’s original concepts. Do you see the inherent discrepancy of your thinking?
“This is simply about looking at the facts and acknowledging that the Windows OS has many distinct, important technological superiorities compared to OS X.”
Please enumerate what “superiorities” exist for Windows versus OS X by carefully and analytically comparing and contrasting each of these. Try to be succinct.
“…but what is rarely discussed–beyond saying that “it’s UNIX-based,” which doesn’t tell one much…”
Again, you have failed to provide any rational or analytical comparison between the architectures of OS X and Windows. You more than guilty as the people you criticize by not providing any examples how the system architecture of Windows is better than OS X.
“I’m not really sure what is motivating people when they say things like Windows is ‘an inferior copy of OS X.’”
I would suppose that some Mac users, such as myself who are obligated to use Windows at work, have the unique perspective of being experienced using both operating systems. This is unlike many ignorant Windows users that I know, who claim Windows superiority, but admit never having used OS X.
meatofmoose:
“This simple begs the question, why has it taken Microsoft so long to develop Vista and so quickly butcher Longhorn if, as you claim, these ideas were known years ago?”
The things I referenced specifically as advantages that exist *today*, with or without Vista. Your point about “bringing the idea to commercial relevance” in a vague sense means nothing, as I could make the same comment about 64-bit support in OS X (more on this in a moment).
“Inevitably, there are going to be similarities between Yugo SV and the Infiniti M, and that is a great testament to the genius of Gottlieb Daimler’s original concepts. Do you see the inherent discrepancy of your thinking?”
No, to the extent that the analogy is valid. A more accurate analogy would be to say, among all cars, the similarity of the UI–ie., a steering wheel, a gas pedal, a brake pedal, etc.–is a great testament. It’s all little silly to argue about a manufacturer “copying” someone else’s “brake pedal UI metaphor”–as if it was their idea in the first place. Whether you like one manufacturer’s implementation over another’s is different and entirely up to you. Nonetheless, there still is the issue of which brake gets the car to stop the fastest.
“Please enumerate what “superiorities” exist for Windows versus OS X by carefully and analytically comparing and contrasting each of these. Try to be succinct.”
I’d go into greater detail, but I find it a bit bit of an odd request when I’ve already given two specific, important examples already (the CLI-only for 64-bit apps in OS X example easily confirmable through Apple’s own documentation–though they certainly don’t trumpet this fact–check out: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/64bit/). Are you ignoring that on purpose?
“I would suppose that some Mac users, such as myself who are obligated to use Windows at work, have the unique perspective of being experienced using both operating systems. This is unlike many ignorant Windows users that I know, who claim Windows superiority, but admit never having used OS X.”
I don’t only use both, I support both; in fact, for a long time, I supported a 50-50 Mac/Windows environment. In my experience, both the Mac and Windows users are ignorant about the platforms on which they work, but the Mac users are the only ones that get quite arrogant about it–which is especially sad, since the ignorance is so apparent. They wouldn’t believe the inadequacies of their OS back in OS 8/9 days, either–it took the release of OS X for them to see that. They only words they seem to believe are those that come from the mouth of Steve Jobs. How do you think the “reality distortion field” phrase got started? How short do Mac advocates think the memory is of those to whom they evangelize? For years they bashed Intel, now people can’t wait to get their hands on a MacBook. They perpetually fail to see–or choose not to see–the disadvantages of their platform and where it does poorly, and to separate fact from fantasy.
At any rate, I’ve given two good, up-to-date examples, so why don’t we start from there. If you feel those are not accurate, please feel free to dispute them. But if you find that they are accurate, please simply be a reasonable, rational person and accept the facts as facts. Again I maintain, OS X is a fine OS, but Windows has many distinct, important technologies superiorities compared to OS X.
Windows XP has more programs (GSView for reading PS files, full-featured DJVU readers, and better DIVX support, a better firefox, just to name a few) more short-cut keys (I use these ALL the time, and I’m just a mathematician that uses Latex). Windows XP hardware (made by other companies) is more reliable (apple has made a history of developing originally designed laptops that have recharging units fail, I personally went through 4 that failed on me) and cheaper (Compaq options, faster despite having slower Harddrives give you much more bang for a buck).
All apple add-on third-party software is pretty expensive. I had to pay 40 dollars just to get my apple computer to communicate with my tungsten.
On XP I have the choice of turning on auto-defragmentation or auto-indexing for searching.
The list just goes on and on. Sure Apple computers are pretty, but they lack functionality and aren’t practical. You can get all that you’d ever want from Unix like BASH or such by installing CYGWIN on your Windows machine. It’s so much easier than using I-installer for installing basic libraries on a mac…
I attempted to switch this year, but Apple failed me never giving me hardware that was reliable enough or software that’s compatible enough.
I like OS X, but OS X really needs something like the taskbar and start button. OS X can feel arkward and clunky at times. Its much easier using the taskbar than using alt-tab or expose, no matter what you guys say. Also, Finder can make looking for applications really difficult, especially if you have multiple applications. So, in some ways, Windows is more productive. Windows will only get more productive with Vista, with inbuilt search (like spotlight), improved start menu, flip and flip 3D (expose for windows), previews of open windows when you hover over them in the taskbar and the sidebar(a bit like Dashboards functionality).
On a side note, I think Windows Vista is going really well, and it will be much more than XP but prettier. Vista, it seems, will exceed OS X, at the very least until Leopard comes out. All NT based Windows OS’s are very good, and bagging them out isn’t warranted.
(im not a windows zealot, im just realistic. I have a Mac running OS 10.3.9)
Of course windows has copied stuff from apple over the years but to say that apple has not done the same is just blind ignorance.
OS X itself ripped off many things in its GUI from windows. I remember sitting down with a lifetime windows user when we first got an OS X machine in the building, he could find his way around it much better than I (an os 9 user) could because it was so much more like windows.
The dock is just a fancy taskbar, system pref – taken from the control panel, the menu folder structure taken right from windows. the user profiles, fast user switching… all of it came from windows. So lets not pretend its just a one way street of theft.
Will Vista be better? who knows but stop with the silly mud slinging, just let people decide which one they want and let it be.
since when does the little guy eat microsoft?