“Apple Inc. customers, unhappy that the company dropped FireWire from its newest notebooks, are venting their frustrations on the company’s support forum in several hundred messages,” Gregg Keizer reports for Computerworld. “Within minutes of Apple CEO Steve Jobs wrapping up a launch event in Cupertino, Calif., users started several threads on the company’s support forum blasting the omission of a FireWire port on the new MacBook laptop.”
“‘Apple really screwed up with no FireWire port,’ said Russ Tolman, who inaugurated a thread that by Thursday had collected more than 200 messages and been viewed over 5,000 times,” Keizer reports. “Ironically, Apple has been one of the biggest boosters of the spec and was one of the primary drivers of the technology when it began development in the late 1980s.”
“Although the upper-end MacBook Pro — which Apple also revamped and relaunched Tuesday — includes a FireWire 800 port, users,” Keizer reports. “Others pointed out that the previous-generation MacBook, which Apple is still selling at a reduced price of $999, includes a FireWire port.”
“Apple has ditched technologies before, most notably when it was one of the first computer makers to abandon the 3.5-in. floppy drive in favor of an internal CD-ROM drive,” Keizer reports.
Full article here.
As we wrote yesterday, in a paragraph some seem to have missed (we suspect temporary rage-induced blindness):
“We’re still trying to figure out how Apple, among other concerns, plans to resolve the dichotomy between MacBooks that ship with iMovie and the lack of a FireWire port for DV cameras; the few relatively expensive solutions we’ve found so far (USB to FireWire DV Adapter) are all Windows-only. Surely Apple doesn’t expect hundreds of thousands of potential MacBook buyers who also own cameras equipped with FireWire to go buy new USB 2 cameras, right? Some other solution must exist or be in the works, right, Apple?”
To say nothing of existing FireWire drives and other peripherals.
Hello, Apple?
OK, let me ask the question one more time. to the tech minded out there:
Is there any reason (hardware wise) that a Mac cannot use a USB to Firewire cable?
How do the download specs compare?
en
A better question would be why we have two different, incompatible peripheral attachment standards when we could get by with just one.
It is unfortunate that the one standard had to end up USB, but that is the reality of the market now. I would suggest that people with FireWire peripherals buy laptops with FireWire. I would also suggest that people buying new peripherals look for USB compatibility, as there are now zero major companies advocating FireWire.
Can you boot from a USB external hard drive?
@ ElderNorm
Firewire allows iMovie to take control over a camera while editing, making it easy for shuttling and importing.
As far as specs go, USB2 IS FASTER than Firewire 400. BUT, tests have shown Firewire 400 will steadily perform at its peak of 400mbps while USB2 will not. For example, a Firewire iPod would load faster than a USB2 iPod if they both had 10GBs worth of data transferred.
By the way, ElderNorm, I wasn’t referring to YOUR question with the “a better question” line…
As for YOUR question, USB and FireWire are completely different, and they can’t be translated by just stringing a bunch of wires together in a cable. These USB to FireWire cables need a chip in them to translate on the fly, so the OS needs a driver to talk to that chip, basically.
So I went over to NewEgg and searched for HD camcorders. There are NONE, Zero, zip, nada, zilch with FireWire only. They are USB, or USB and FireWire combos. Lemme repeat: All currently sold HD camcorder models feature USB, and no FireWire only.
FireWire seems to go the way of the dodo.
As a photographer who uses many external firewire drives… looks like I won’t be getting the new Macbook after all.
🙁 Hm… Maybe a hackintosh is my best choice.
Chas
http://www.chaselliott.com
@IDon’t,
Yes, all Intel Macs can boot from USB hard drives.
@IDon’t
Yes, if you have an Intel Mac
@wannabe
I assume you mean computer makers as there are many external HD/CD/DVD enclosure manufacturers that provide Firewire.
Maxtor and LaCie for example
this is funny stuff. it’s not apple is forcing you to upgrade. they’ve always done this to people, in saying this what we have, like it buy it, dont like it suffer with windows, whats new? nada, anyway. I was smart overtime though bought everything with usb2. sorry firewire really didn’t catch on with the average consumers
I also checked Sony’s current lineup.
Their only camera that does have FireWire is their top of the line professional camcorder. That’s a >$3,000 camera, base price. I guess who can afford those can also afford a MacBook Pro.
All their other current HD camcorders are USB, and USB only, it seems.
@elgarak
I agree that new models support USB 2.0. My problem is that I’ve got a DV camcorder that’s about six years old that is in perfect shape. I’d rather not chuck it. If I used it more often, I might replace with a new HD one. But I don’t.
However, I do like to edit the content that I do shoot with it and my current Macbook does the job. The new one would not. And I’ve got to be far from the only one in this boat.
its peak transfer speed vs sustained transfer speed, especially when dealing with large amounts of data. FW 400 is faster than USB 2.0 for sustained transfer, USB 2.0 is faster for a short quick burst (sometimes) where it can in theory go to 480. In reality, USB 2.0 is not nearly as fast.
Never mind FW 800, or the new USB 3.0 or the new FW that is coming down the pike.
I will continue to use FW on my Macs… Too many peripherals I have depend on it (camera, scanner, external drives, etc…). That being said, if I was in the market for a new laptop, I would not be opposed to one without.
Now, how about eSATA or something?
i dont see many mini dv cameras out there anymore, they’re moving toward flashdrives, removable media. no need for imovie to shuttle/jog from the camera, just move the file over for editing and view it either via your choice of media hub(ATV,mobileme,iphone….).
I think the FW400 omission is a mistake on the MacBook and one which will be rectified before too long.
Clearly it was in the hands of a junior person in Apple and not fully rationalised.
It is sad that FireWire did not catch on as well as it should, but the fault is not with Apple who have promoted it strongly for years and years. Blame WinTel not Apple.
The biggest loss is FireWire target mode which is very very useful indeed. You can boot from a USB drive but you can’t do anything like Target mode.
If you have a FireWire only camera, you either have a pretty old camera or such a high end one that you shouldn’t really be squawking about having to buy the Pro laptop.
Finally, if Apple had only put one USB port on the MacBook so as to leave in FireWire, the forums would be filled with people complaining about the single USB port and why not drop the “useless” FireWire port and put in a second USB.
@limey,
That’s not so true. Last time I wanted to buy a stand-alone FireWire enclosure for a SATA notebook (2.5″) drive I found — ONE. One model from one manufacturer (MacAlly). And that was FireWire 400 and USB.
All the other FW enclosures were for PATA drives, or 3.5″ drives.
FireWire, especially FW400, is a dying connector. It survives for (semi-)professional applications as FW800 thanks to the really high transfer speeds.
The more I think about it, I think skipping the FW400 ports on the new MacBooks (and MacBook Pro) was a good decision on Apple’s part.
Why do you need Target Disk Mode on the new MacBooks with no FireWire Ports?
You can boot those from external drives, and you can take out the HD within a minute if you have a Torx driver.
What advantage doe Target Disk Mode have?
Indeed : Hello Apple ?!
The firewire port absence is just another symptom of Steve Jobs inability to think on more than one track. His track record is to offer as few options as possible to Mac users. Something new comes out, do away with the old. Not because there is anything wrong with the old, just because it’s old. Or in the case of the firewire port, just because it doesn’t suite his fancy to offer it.
Now he has completely done away with matte screens. I own two iMacs and one MacBook. I really hate to say it, but these may be my last. Although I suppose I could upgrade to the Mac Pro, and get someone else’s monitor to avoid having a glossy screen shoved down my throat.
Steve Jobs is just a control freak.
I would like to hear from Steve Jobs why Firewire was omitted. I guess he doesn’t mind that we won’t be able to use our existing Firewire-only video cameras anymore?
Steve, time to hear from you on this.
“So I went over to NewEgg and searched for HD camcorders. There are NONE, Zero, zip, nada, zilch with FireWire only. They are USB, or USB and FireWire combos. Lemme repeat: All currently sold HD camcorder models feature USB, and no FireWire only.
FireWire seems to go the way of the dodo.”
I’m glad somebody else noticed. Even the cheapo $500 JVC HDD camcorder I bought last year is USB only. FireWire is dead folks, it’s time to move on…
USB FireWire is available, but it’s Windows only. Get a life Mac users why buy a PATHETHIC Apple product while you can get everything you’ve wanted on a MS Window. Whenever you think of purchasing a computer THINK Windows. MS Windows For Life.
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I love people defending Apple…. they can do no wrong. Apple is growing, this decision won’t necessarily make the growth go away. But it will keep the growth from reaching it’s potential. Many cameras that say USB/FIrewire have the USB for pictures, Firewire is still a requirement for many many cameras. A converter with USB won’t work as video needs a constant stream, only Firewire can do that.
So the lesser, lower quality formatted cameras are all that will work (many mentioned above with high compression, yuck). Sounds like Apple is going to “good enough” is an OK business practice… ummm… sounds like another Company I know.
Plus, these aren’t $899 computers are they?
The absence of firewire, plus the absence of a matte screen, has pushed my wife and I out of the option to buy another Mac laptop to replace our aging PPC PowerBook. We simply can’t afford to move to a MBP to gain one feature without the other. Looks like Apple is going to have a short life span in this consumer’s home.
I see a refurb MacBook Pro is $1349 on the Apple website. For those worried about Firewire, that may be the way to go for now.
elgarak is mistaken when he says that all the Sony HD cameras are USB only. If he means Hard Drive and flash based video cameras, he is correct, but if he means Hi Def cameras, he is incorrect.
The tape based Hi Def Sony cameras and the DV (standard def) Sony cameras all use Firewire ONLY for the transfer of video. They use USB for the transfer of stills.
Millions of brand new consumer and prosumer video cameras in both Standard Def and Hi Def rely on only firewire for video transfer.
The Hard Drive (HD) video cameras in both standard and Hi Definition use USB only to transfer the video – but these are only a fraction of the installed base and a minority of the new sales.
These flash and hard drive cameras have not yet settled on a standard CODEC and as a result none of the major editing software like iMovie, Final Cut and Premiere (Windows) are able to import straight from the cameras. The video has to be converted via proprietary software – and it is a disaster in terms of frame drops and sound out of sync.
Don’t take my word for it – buy a flash based hi def camera of any make and take it to the Apple store and ask them “show me how you import this to iMovie”… and watch the fun.
The exclusion of firewire on the MacBooks effectively shut out millions or perhaps tens of millions of firewire camera owners – many of whom purchased the latest cameras yesterday.
That doesn’t even count those of us with firewire hard drives.
The lack of firewire will be a deal killer for any of the millions and millions of people who own firewire based cameras and hard drives.
Apple blew it and they blew it big time.
I’m waiting for the first class-action suit when thousands of folks in the next few weeks accept Apple’s advertising at face value and are not told “this computer doesn’t work with 99% of the installed base of video cameras”.
You just watch.
Not here. I’m RAGING over the loss of the matte screen on the MacBook Pro and the iMac. It’s RAGE. Causes my blood pressure to rise.
Most polls show that around 40% of users like matte. I’ve seen several on the web, and they’re all around 40%. So how can Steve say that the majority like gloss. Well, 60% is a majority. But it shows Steve cannot care less, because he knows we’re not going to leave for Windows.
I’m not going back to Windows. But I sure am going to try and keep my matte iMac and matte MBP alive as long as possible. Hoping they’ll last 10 years. I simply cannot, cannot use glossy screens.
I have tried my friend’s gloss iMac. When the iMac has the room’s windows to its side, the gloss screen is totally magnificent, better than matte in its clarity and color. But turn it around with the windows it its rear, and, for me, it is un-usable. I JUST CANNOT WRITE FOR HOURS AND HOURS A DAY ON MICROSOFT WORD, TEXT, NOT PHOTOS AN MOVIES, WITH ALL THAT REFLECTION. PLEASE LISTEN APPLE.
I too was upset at first, but thinking it over
– I do 100% of my video editing at a desk at home on the iMac
– you can always import your raw DV at home and bring the files with you
– if you really NEED to edit on the fly, on the road, you’re a power user and most likely getting a MBP
– most consumers are starting to switch over to their digital cameras for video and there is no hinderance for importing. Case in point are the new high end DSLR that capture HD video.
I agree that for students who are in college and will most likely only have one laptop, the MB will hinder their work flow. If video is that important, you’ll have to suffer and buy the MBP.
it’s in the firewire spec that a ethernet port can be used in place of an actual firewire port but what that requires hardware/software wise is unknown and there’s certainly no solutions out there for any platform to do this
While I understand why people are upset, I think they are missing the point of what Apple needs to do to support multiple laptop configurations at different price points. Let’s say I buy a car. I’d like the base model but want the big engine and leather seats. Well, guess what? The car maker says that I need the Sport model to get the bigger engine. If I want the leather seats, I need to upgrade to the Luxury model. They certainly could have made both the bigger engine and the leather seats available in the base model but then what would differentiate the base model from the Sport and Luxury models?
If you look at Apple’s laptops, screen size, processor speed and graphics performance are the main tools Apple has to create discrete models. I think what Apple is saying is that those features alone aren’t enough to justify the price differences that exist between the MacBooks and the MacBook Pros. So, in order to support those differences, they need to add (or subtract) features like Firewire, graphics cards and expansion slots.
Maybe the question people should be asking is how many more people are likely to buy a MacBook Pro now that would have bought a MacBook if it included Firewire. After all, Apple is a business and their goal is to make money.
The argument people seem to be making is that Firewire, like USB, should be on every computer. I tend to agree but I also know that if Firewire was included on the MacBook, I’d buy one instead of the MacBook Pro and Apple would be out about $1,000. If you were Apple, what would you do?
Virtually every consumer grade camcorder sold today uses USB and not FireWire. If you don’t believe me, just go to Best Buy or Fry’s and look for yourself.
If you’re using a pro grade camcorder, you don’t need to be buying a MacBook anyway, that’s what a MacBook Pro is for.
The main concern is regarding enclosures and external peripherals that you ALREADY own that are firewire. Using that older firewire video camera as an alternative to the fixed iSight camera is no longer an option, for one. Your external FireWire had drives are also out the window.
You don’t need FireWire, unless you’ve already been using FireWire and already own FireWire devices.
Responding to “ARGH!”… you’re just coming to the realization that Steve is a control freak now? What about mighty mouse. Steve is so adamantly against Apple making a 2 button mouse that he gave us what is essentially a 2 button mouse, but with only one button. Control freak, yes. Without it, no iPhone, no mighty mouse, no iSight, no multi-touch trackpad, no OS X, no stock prices higher than $20 a share.
Also, very few cars sporting the white Apple sticker. It has become cool to be an Apple fan now. Not that many “White Apple” fans had the Rainbow Apple stickers. That culture was changed by that control freak.
So by your argument, Apple is really telling folks who want FW to get a MacBook Pro. Sounds like a huge price increase to me, since the true replacement for the old MacBook is the new MacBook Pro.
unless I am mistaken, a new MacBook Pro, even without Firewire can use an expresscard with FW800 or FW400 ports to access Firewire devices and drives. This only leaves out the MacBooks that don’t have an expresscard slot.
For those of you that say all\most new video camera’s have USB. I say I can only afford 1 device replacement this year so I guess it will have to be the Video Camera in preparation for the MacBook as I can not do it in the reverse order and keep working.
Target Disk Mode is a life saver. Yes, this isn’t the first time that we’ve lost technology to the switching crowd that isn’t using it. But dumbing dow a system and raising the prices is pretty lo-res.
Hey, by late 2009, USB 2 also will be dead, and new cameras and storage devices will use USB 3. Also, another Web site reported today that some time ago, Apple applied for a patent to migrate Target Disk Mode to eSATA drives.
Back when Apple switched to Intel processors, I think the two companies must have come to some agreement for Apple to throw its support behind USB, and eventually phase out FireWire. If true, I’m sure Apple got something out of it…
@ Rog
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8671528&type=product&id=1197074520970
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8682829&type=product&id=1198286370318
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8671332&type=product&id=1197074520368
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8718694&type=product&id=1200703056029
The last link says “For easy image transfer” with USB. Not video.
@elgarak
Target Disk Mode is too fantastic to lose. Yes, you can boot from a USB disk, and we will have to find ways to make that work. Maybe apple can update the firmware of their machines to allow a pass-thru so that you can do a target disk mode in USB.
The reason that Target Disk Mode is so good, is because you don’t have to spend the extra money on an external HD. There are two main instances I use Target Disk Mode. First, if my Mac OS crashes and won’t boot, I can use another Mac in my office to look at my HD w/out any extra work and ever perform permission repairs to my disk and get it working. Basically, it’s the equivalent of taking your hard drive out and sticking it in another machine to work on it, all with a single cable and no work.
The second place I have used target disk mode is for ridiculously sized file transfers. I have a bunch of office files for some work we were doing that exceeded 30 GB of data. I needed to get them to another guy in my office and our external portable HDD’s were full and we were in somewhat of a hurry, so network xfer wasn’t going to work. Thanks to target disk mode, I was able to connect to his HD and xfer in just about 10 minutes.
That is the power of FireWire and that is mainly what I use it for. I don’t have any peripherals that are firewire only, just Target Disk Mode.
PetitionOnline – fill in the petition
if you feel the need for FW to be supported
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/MB1394/petition.html
Also there are many DV cams with USB wich is used only for the pictures, and no way to output DV. Some of my friends have JVC and panasonics like that (they were the inexpensive models)
for those bitching about no matte screens and the super glare. here you now have the best of both worlds.
http://store.apple.com/us/product/TR410LL/A?mco=MTIxODk3Mw
i’m if you search around you can find cheaper.
My Sony movie DV camera is Firewire only!
“The second place I have used target disk mode is for ridiculously sized file transfers. I have a bunch of office files for some work we were doing that exceeded 30 GB of data. I needed to get them to another guy in my office and our external portable HDD’s were full and we were in somewhat of a hurry, so network xfer wasn’t going to work. Thanks to target disk mode, I was able to connect to his HD and xfer in just about 10 minutes.
First – I’m definitely one who wants to keep FW, a superior technology… but I have a dumb question? Isn’t it possible to connect two Macs via ethernet port and transfer files directly? I’m sure there’s something I’m missing, but I would appreciate someone explaining it to me.
re: Sony:
I meant their <a >High Definition lineup for Consumers</a>. And I forgot to add “FW only”
Two DV cameras in there. The top-of-line is FW only (iLink in Sony lingo). The other one is USB/FW. The other cameras are non-tape formats, and all have USB.
@ripper Yep he could have just connected them with a ethernet cable and put in ip’s and subnets ex)
Computer 1:
192.168.1.100
255.255.255.0
Computer 2:
192.168.1.101
255.255.255.0
then started up file sharing.
link
Also Target Disk mode is great for applying an image to a machine also for upgrading it if your drive is borked.
“. . . avoid having a glossy screen shoved down my throat.”
That sounds like Rage Against the Macs sheen.
@ ripper, jonahan
Doable, but nowhere near as easy or fast as TDM. Most people don’t have a crossover cable available, so they’re going to go through a hub or switch. That will limit them to 100mbit Ethernet unless they have a gigabit switch.
So it’ll be 4-8 times slower than Firewire 400/800.
hmmmm – Apple is figuring people who buy a ‘basic’ laptop will be using ‘basic’ usb2 items with it. That doesn’t make sense in Bizarro World, but in regular old daily life it does.
Plus, Apple would cannibalize sales giving cheapos firewire AND high end graphics, because every cheapskate would buy a Macbook and try to cut corners. I hear it all the time: “I want to buy the cheapest laptop, camera, software, and skip training, but make large sums of money like the ‘pros’ do. And that’s exactly why these people will never be pros.
Here’s a hint – get the money from your wife/girlfriend, if she doesn’t have the $800 difference to get a Macbook Pro, you have bigger problems already.
Again, I fail to see what Target Disk Mode offers over an external HD boot. All you need is an external HD, and a bootable backup (SuperDuper, Carbon Copy Cloner). Which most people already have for backup purposes anyway.
Look, I prefer FireWire over USB any day. It’s clearly superior technology. But it’s not that much of a deal. Unless you’re having an older DV camera. But, well, there always were, and there always will be formats that die. It sucks, but c’est la vie.
@maclover
http://www.sweetwater.com/c683–FireWire_Audio_Interfaces
This is where most musicians sink big money (not to mention ProTools). The more expensive the interface, generally the better the sound quality. Average price for a *good* interface is $1000.
So, I should just go get a crappy USB2 interface to go with my new (hypothecital) non-Firewire Macbook so I can continue to record on location?
It’s people who *already have* a sizable investment in Firewire equipment and would like to upgrade to a small, portable Mac laptop who are upset. And there are a *lot* of those people.
Don’t forget, the old 13″ Macbook had Firewire. There was no reason to expect the new one would not. I know folks who’ve been waiting for months to upgrade.
“You don’t need FireWire, unless you’ve already been using FireWire and already own FireWire devices.”
And if you’re a Mac owner you’re used to Apple periodically making your hardware obsolete overnight, It’s just part of being a “Superior” Mac owner. So stop whining.
The low-end Firewire audio interfaces are 24-bit/96KHz, while the midrange and top-end interfaces are 24-bit/192KHz which is the current standard:
http://www.sweetwater.com/c683–FireWire_Audio_Interfaces
The USB interfaces top out at 24-bit, 96KHz, with most of them being 48KHz:
http://www.sweetwater.com/c695–USB_Audio_Interfaces
Obviously, there’s a difference in price, quality and capability for sustained data transfer.
That’s the audio interface. Many people prefer a smaller laptop for its convenience and portability. The Macbook used to be fine for pro audio applications. But that option has just been taken off the board, since you can no longer get pro-quality audio into the Macbook.
The lack of firewire on the MacBook Aluminum actually means that the “MacBook Plastic” is a better computer for musicians on the go. All recording interfaces (that are worth a sh!t, anyway) are firewire – and a MacBook pro just isn’t necessary for recording on the bus or in the motel room.
So basically I’ll have to upgrade my iBook G4 to the plastic MacBook, instead of the aluminum one. Or wait and see what happens on the first refresh.
What kills me is, how flippin’ hard would it have been to put a bloody FW jack on there? Yeesh.
USB to Firewire adapters: Yes they exist and I will tell you where to get them for relatively cheap. The problem of course is that they effectively hobble your Firewire devices to use USB 2 speeds. Boohoo.
The adapters. The links below are to the cheapest priced provider:
1) USB to Firewire multi-cable. Connect a Firewire device to a USB input. $25. Read about it at:
http://www.jr.com/suo200-multi-cable/pe/SMA_SUO200/
2) A combo universal hub or USB and Firewire. It provides access to both kinds of devices. $30. Read about it at:
http://www.jr.com/iogear/pe/IOR_GUH420/
Meanwhile, I too am disappointed that Apple have essentially given up on Firewire in the consumer market laptops and the Air.
HOWEVER, Firewire is alive and well in the professional market and is going to stay that way. Firewire 3200 will be available for computer integration before the end of this year. When it will be available in a Mac configuration, I don’t know. Meanwhile, USB 3 is unlikely to hit the streets until 2010. And again, the ‘specs’ for USB 3 look faster, but again the spec is only a BURST speed, NOT a sustained speed. And again Firewire 3200 will be faster because its spec is for a sustained speed unattainable by USB 3.
Keep in mind folks that Apple has NEVER considered itself in competition with USB. Apple were in fact the very very first computer company to make USB standard in all their computers. They did it a full year before any other computer company. If you doubt me, trolls, go do some homework and you’ll notice I am correct.
About HD camcorder and FireWire; many here are spreading a lot of confusion. Here’s the story.
HDV camcorders (i.e. HD models using MiniDV tape) are in a way, successors to the MiniDV camcorders of yesterday. The only way you can transfer/capture video from that tape is in real time, which is via FireWire. These are slowly dying away. Out of nine current consumer HD models, Canon only has two HDV models, one of which has been discontinued and superseeded by the other.
Tapeless camcorders seem to be the way to go. They can use HDV or AVCHD (the latter rapidly overtaking the former in popularity). These DON’T have FireWire; instead, they only use USB2, since there is no need for a continuous high-speed stream of data for real-time capture.
iMovie08 can automatically acquire content from these camcorders. Old Guy with a Beard is wrong; the process is simple intuitive and (relatively) fast – just like iPhoto. You connect your AVCHD (or tapeless HDV) camcorder via cable (or take SDHC card and stick it in the card reader), click on camera icon and all individual shots will appear as thumbnails. It may take a minute or so to import them if you have hundreds of shots. You choose which shots to import into iMovie and click Import. The clips get into iMovie library and you edit. Nothing simpler than that. And no FireWire in sight.
It is very likely that consumers will, over the next year or two, rapidly adopt HD camcorders. Vast majority of those will be tapeless. They won’t have FireWire and wouldn’t need it anyway.
Having switched from MiniDV to tapeless AVCHD (Canon’s HF-100), I no longer have any need for FireWire. Therefore, I can explore the next MacBook when my current (1-year old) becomes old enough for replacement.
Perhaps Steve knows something we don’t. Surely, Apple carefully researches their addressable market before making decisions regarding feature set. I’m convinced this was a decision based on the realistic demand (or lack thereof) of the market.
The demise of FW started with the elimination of FW from iPods. The elimination of FW from MacBooks is simply step 2.
I’d like feedback from MDN forum members on a possible issue -the performance of Apple’s USB 2.0 implementation. This may not apply to newer Macs but, in the past, the built-in USB 2.0 on the Mac was considerably slower than USB 2.0 on PCs. This showed up in HDD tests in which built-in FireWire significantly outperformed built-in USB 2.0 on the Mac, but was much closer to parity on a PC. I don’t recall if a third party USB 2.0 solution (ExpressCard slot) fixed the issue on the Mac.
I like FireWire and am very disappointed that Apple arbitrarily chose to drop it from the MacBook. This is an example of an idea that they should have vetted with the Mac community before implementing. Retaining FW might have involved a compromise in terms of cost or loss of other functionality (e.g., reduction in the number of USB 2.0 ports), but it would have been nice for the Mac user community to be involved and to have some warning that Apple was considering ditching FW.
I can only assume that Apple believes that FW1600 and FW3200 will not materialize and/or cannot economically co-exist or compete with USB 3.0.
It was nice knowing you, FireWire. Rest in peace with 3-1/2″ floppies and Apple Data Bus and NuBus and …
@oh no my shorts
If people would use there laptops for more then ‘flaming’ and do some research, they would find:
a 12″ powerbook with firewire like i have on ebay
any other firewire mac laptop with firewire on ebay
a refurb old macbook with warranty for $850 on apple.com
a refurb new macbook pro with warranty for $1350
so they must not be looking for deals if they cant find some
me myself, it’s time for a brand new $2000 Macbook Pro,
I’ve been whining about the price for years, and buying used, but no more, I work to get what I want, and this is what I want.
PPL:
If you have 3 kids and can’t afford a macbook pro, well who made that choice? you or Steve Jobs? I want Dodge Chargers, and Nikon d700s, and Macbook Pros, and Denon 3500s, and sexy young floozys, so I don’t have kids because they may conflict with my needs. Everybody needs to man up to the life they want instead of blaming Steve Jobs, and EVERYONE, including me, should be greatful we can even afford macs instead of being in some god-forsaken country waiting for a $100 olepc running linux or whatever the hell that thing is called.
Be greatful not regretful ( is that spelled right?)
Not quite (it is spelt ‘grateful’…). The point is valid, though.
Clearly, the main reason behind getting rid of the port was savings. USB2 chipset is significantly cheaper than FireWire (google it up if you are in doubt). Couple that with the limited demand and the decision is clear.
Not sure if anyone’s thought of it yet and posted…but a person can buy themselves an 800->400 firewire cord (like steve said in the key note) and then have a firewire 400 hub plugged in – it’s a work around that would work.
The problem is that the MacBook is too close to the MacBook Pro in spec, so Apple needed to do something drastic like this to differentiate the models. If only the MacBook had an Express Card port then the problem of FireWire, eSATA and future upgrades would be solved.
Adapter cables will not re-enable target disk mode, which has many uses including the transfer of data from an older Mac to a new one via Migration Assistant. Adapter cables don’t solve the performance problem that many if not most portable bus-powered USB drives have when connected to laptop computers. You can plug them into both USB ports, but then there go all your ports. This has to be one the most absurdly bad design decisions that Apple has ever made, period. Unbelievable!!!
I think the decision by Apple to drop Firewire from the Macbook range is a good one.
Why, for a start many users, new and old alike had a hard time deciding which model to buy if you’re into any form of content creation.
I’m an HD content producer and I can recall having it hard choosing between the high end MacBook and the low end Pro model. This wasn’t good for Apple because it meant undercutting their Pro line, I went for the mid range 15″ Pro model due to the silver aluminium look, it’s more classy and helps justify my somewhat high hourly rate. 17″ is just too big for me.
Technically speaking I could have done my job easily on the high end MacBook, but the black or white look just doesn’t cut it. Black looked too executive as though I am a salesman, white far too cheap for reasons I have already mentioned.
Consider that and now the added aluminium to the MacBook line, if there wasn’t a major difference in either connectivity or look, that most likely destroy the Pro line, in my opinion. So dropping a connection makes sense as looks are also important, Dell and Sony know this now and is why Dell have their patterned cased range for instance.
Using the student analogy, for say a movie production or photography major, most likely be on a tight budget, my options in cameras do limit me to USB over iLink or Firewire regardless if its 400 or 800. These are the students that are most likely to buy Apple anyway.
As a professional my needs are somewhat greater. For a start recording directly onto a Hard Drive or other solid state media is the way that’s going, for instance I have a Red One camera and it has these ports:
FireWire 800/400, USB-2 and e-SATA interfaces
RED DRIVE (RAID)™ hard disk drive (320GB)
RED-RAM™ flash memory drive (64 GB)
CompactFlash cards (8 and 16GB)
Depending on project I use any one of those methods for dumping filmed content onto my MacBook Pro. e-SATA is something else, which I don’t use myself, not because there isn’t a connection on my MacBook Pro, instead some clients bring along a small e-sata hard drive for them to take away each days content for viewing, called dallies – so they can see how their project is forming and ensuring it is inline with what they want as it progresses day by day.
Since movie and photography production are Apple’s main customer base they are just changing to meet that requirement.
Yes things are changing as more office based operations make the switch, which to be honest they don’t care about Firewire or USB, as long as it’s got enough of one or the other it doesn’t matter. Even if not I’ll add more via a hub.
Things would be different if Ethernet was dropped.
I hope my example helps ease some peoples worries, although with Target Disk Mode, perhaps Apple has plans to change its methodology in its use?
Yep he could have just connected them with a ethernet cable and put in ip’s and subnets… —jonathan
Now that sounds easy enough. All I have to do is spend twenty minutes hassling with config settings to accomplish a task that is plug-and-go easy with firewire.
ADDENDUM:
Just to clarify, my 15″ Pro does have an Express Card slot. It replaced the older PCMCIA slot.
My point is that I don’t use it at this time. I might in future, so not to rule it out totally.
Again, I fail to see what Target Disk Mode offers over an external HD boot. —elgarak
What HD boot? As far as I know, you cannot boot up from an external USB drive. Someone at Apple outlined a way to do it, but the method involved reinstalling OS X, which is absurd!
You also fail to understand that target disk mode is necessary for migrating data from one Mac to another. Without it, one can perhaps use ethernet, which means waiting hours for your data to transfer.
@maclover
Yeh I agree, and its grateful by the way.
Lots of great points made in this thread. Here’s mine:
I don’t necessarily have a problem with them removing the FW port on the Macbook because my work is in Audio which requires the processing power of the Macbook Pro. That said high bitrate multi channel audio interfaces are ALL Firewire as are the high speed external drives needed to capture live recording. I have way more $$ invested in FW peripherals than I do in the computing hardware.
I can tell you the FW standard is not at all dead for pro audio users where there are no comparable USB alternatives. I am hoping this is not a glimpse into the future of the Macbook Pro.
To all those who tell users to “simply buy a Pro”: There are folks who use their Mac for work but don’t want the footprint of a 15″ model. The MacBook (white) has far longer battery life compared with the old Pro (5:30 vs. 3:15, with my use). Add to that that the “new” MacBook is priced like a smaller Pro model, and the omission of an important interface makes no sense. Add a FW800 port to the faster model and call it the 13″ MBP, for Pete’s sake.
The latest version of FireWire, which is not even in use yet, uses the same physical port as Ethernet.
I think the Macbook’s one possible saving grace is if it is actually one firmware update away from having the newest specification of FireWire.
I use my little Black MacBook I bought last May in my IT field work and I often have to connect to other Macs that are in the target disk mode.
My MacBook does a great job and I’m sure that the new MacBook, if properly configured with a FireWire port, would too.
1. 99% of people dont need / use the firewire port
2. most new digital camcorders use usb
3. you can get fire wire on a card dumbasses stop bitching
4. costs apple a little less to make
5. uses a smaller pcb because of it
6. more efficient on the battery
yes it was a long lived apple standard, yes it sucks, what are you gonna do?
my question is if you boot one holding ‘f’ does it work as a usb drive now? – and will that feature work with firewire if you have one in the card slot?
it does suck; dont get me wrong… but this is the value mac we are talking about.
@hagar57 is exactly right on all points. The best way Apple can save face is to release a 13″ MBP. Great idea, and one that would make many people happy, I think.
I understand why many people don’t care or see what the big deal is, but musicians were shafted by this boneheaded move – of course we’d all love to have MBP’s but that just is not always realistic or practical and we RELY on Firewire. And yes there are still choices out there – either buy the white MacBook “classic” or buy older hardware. But clearly a sign of things to come. Taking away a feature without offering an equal or better solution is WAY not cool.
Makes it hard to recommend an otherwise compelling machine.
Basically, the exclusion of Firewire puts my Macbook purchase off indefinitely, unless I choose to go with the white plastic models. When I buy a computer, I don’t expect to also have to replace my camcorder (which I only purchased last year) in the process. The whole reason I went with a Mini-DV camcorder in the first place was because most of the models available last year could only do a direct video transfer using a Windows utility. Plus, they all used a much lower video bitrate, which more readily degrades during the editing process. (Not to mention the fact that Apple slot-loading SuperDrive does not accept the mini DVD discs that most DVD-based camcorders use)
I was hoping to get one of the new Macbooks so that I could do video capture and editing on the go. I already use my iMac for video editing, but I would’ve liked to have the option of untethering myself from my desk at home when creating movies.
If Apple gains a bunch of new customers with these Al Macbooks, more power to them. I just won’t be one of them.
just realized I missed the info…
no target disk mode
and NO CARD SLOT TO ADD FIREWIRE!!!! WTF APPLE~!?!
I do NOT want to rely on BS usb 2.0 for timemachine, and storage!!! REALLY!!! THIS SUCKS!!! USB 3.0 better come out soon goddamnit!
oh and btw, there should be a 2 hard drive option in the MBP!
oh and there should be a mac mini with support for expandable graphics, and 2 hard drives… DO IT..
My poor black musician friend is now NOT going to get a new macbook. 🙁 sorry apple I tried
It’s odd that no one seems to be concerned about audio interfaces and the like. The lack of a firewire port I am sure will also affect a lot of people with such devices that had no need to buy a pro model, because the macbook had enough power to run these audio devices unless they were running video as well.
While I lament the loss of FireWire from the new MacBooks (I was Apple’s Original FireWire Evangelist from 1991-1993, while it was still code named ChefCat), I understand the reasoning. The BIG main advantage of FireWire over USB 2 is the isochronous (Same-Time) data handshaking/transfer. Guaranteed data delivery at the time it is needed. This is very important to professional video editors, needing to work with one or more realtime video streams. USB 2 just can’t deliver that. While consumers benefit from FireWire in faster sustained data transfers than USB 2, they don’t really take full advantage of FireWire’s isochronous capability.
FireWire does cost more to implement in (chipset, connectors, licenses, etc.) than USB 2, and with everyone clamoring for lower cost MacBooks, something has to give. Also, you may remember the loss of Floppy disk drives, which Apple spearheaded, many a reporter claimed that the tipping point for no-floppy PCs had not come yet. When in fact it had, and Apple saw it and acted on it before everyone else.
Such is the way of FireWire on consumer products (computers and cameras).
Apple will not be removing FireWire from the MacBook Pros or the Mac Pro towers, as these are the workhorses for most media production houses. Until such time as some other much faster peripheral interconnect comes to fruition, with the same or better realtime (isochronous) capability at a lower cost (there are faster interconnects – but much more expensive), FireWire is not going anywhere. FireWire also has 1600, 3200 modes coming down the pipe as well.
The impact for those of us semi-pro media/video editors, will be that FireWire based external drives may become more expensive as there will not be as large a market for them going forward.
As for Target Disk Mode, all Apple computers have had Gigabit Ethernet for several years now. Apple has made the new MacBook’s Migration Assistant work with Ethernet. Gigabit Ethernet is not much slower than FireWire 400 (on sustained data transfers), so I suspect this also made the removal easier, since there is a reasonable alternative.
No matter what, I won’t use Windows. I’m upset, too- but throwing a temper tantrum in public in hopes that Steve Jobs will see or hear about it and change the error of his ways is not logical or constructive. OK, it’s good to vent, though. But think about it- most PC users could care less about matte screens or firewire, many have never used or heard about it- so if you’re upset, you’ll be in the same boat with PC’s either now or very shortly if you switch. Ever go to Best Buy and compare PC’s to Apples? Ugh. I’d pay double for a Mac- uh, don’t tell Apple that…
In reference to my previous post, it would seem there are people also concerned with audio interfaces and the need for FW. I missed those posts (along with the whole second page of posts, it would seem). I will be keeping my recently purchased black plastic macbook which has every thing I need anyways.
buy a macbook pro?….
I, too, was rather dismayed to learn about FW being dropped. I’ve been waiting several months for these upgrades, as I need to hand down my current MacBook to a daughter whose aging 12″ Powerbook was teetering on the edge of death. Our nearly decade-old DV camcorder is FW only, so I can relate to the those who are feeling the pain of this move. A few thoughts on the other side, however:
1. There’s a (slim) possibility that the new MBooks have the hardware to do FW over E-net, but this was not mentioned because something wasn’t ready on the software side. You may recall earlier MacBooks shipped with undocumented N-wireless capabilities that were later able to be unlocked through a $2 download.
2. Remember Apple hasn’t dropped FW from the entire line, only the aluminum MacBooks. If someone absolutely needs it in their notebook and can’t pony up for a Pro, there’s still the $999 model.
3. Alternatively, one can do what I plan to do (yes, I went ahead an ordered a new 13.3″): import DV on to another Mac and then transfer the files. Sure, it’s less than ideal, but it is a workaround.
I remember the hue and cry that went up when Apple dropped the floppy drive from the iMac. At the time it seemed to many (including myself) that this was a huge mistake. In retrospect, of course, it was the correct call. During the Jobs era, Apple has almost always been on the mark with these kinds of decisions. Skating to where the puck will be, I guess…
Musicians, Live on stage all love the 13″ form factor and firewire for audio is like light and day over USB.
There is no 13″ Macbook Pro so there is a ton of musicians that are screwed.
It isnt all about cameras guys.
Apple sells logic so they need to keep their stage musos happy or they will loose sales on hardware and software like logic
a 15.4 screen is not an option a traveling muso wants either
“Also Target Disk mode is great for applying an image to a machine also for upgrading it if your drive is borked.”
Your Macs must get their filesystems trashed a lot more times than you’re think from all the “Macs are reliable it just works” talk that goes here on until someone removes a feature you apparently need each day to keep your Mac working.
It’s NOT JUST VIDEO CAMERAS!!
I use a firewire only audio interface. It cost me £800 if I wanted to upgrade my computer I’d have to buy a usb interface and, trust me. They are a shit load slower than firewire. Even USB2 would never compete with firewire 400.
One laptop plus an interface upgrade is really something I can not afford right now.
I’m not in the market for a laptop right now, but I’m worried about Apple’s move to drop Firewire. Everyone knows why Firewire is the preferred choice over USB for video.
USB is winning and its all Apple’s fault. They have let their greed get in the way. Had they offered Firewire at a reasonable licensing fee, Firewire would be standard on PC’s and USB may never have been necessary.
Good job Steve.
I bought my first FireWire drives when I purchased my first Mac. Will Apple continue to support FireWire? Inquiring minds want to know.
alansky: What HD boot? As far as I know, you cannot boot up from an external USB drive. Someone at Apple outlined a way to do it, but the method involved reinstalling OS X, which is absurd!
You also fail to understand that target disk mode is necessary for migrating data from one Mac to another. Without it, one can perhaps use ethernet, which means waiting hours for your data to transfer.
All Intel Macs, including the new MacBooks, can boot from an external USB hard drive. Just start it up with alt pressed, select the external HD (which needs a bootable filesystem, of course), there you are. The internal HD shows up on the desktop/finder like an external HD. And the system transfer has been updated that you can transfer from an external HD as well. Which people should already have around, for Time Machine or other backup purposes (I use two external HDs, one for Time Machine, another for a weekly Carbon Copy Cloning). After all, HDs are cheap these days. And I survived through two HD failures thanks to backups.
* not logged in
@jocknerd
“USB is winning and its all Apple’s fault. They have let their greed get in the way. Had they offered Firewire at a reasonable licensing fee, Firewire would be standard on PC’s and USB may never have been necessary.”
Boy, I can’t argue with that. I just looked up the cost of Firewire licensing and was shocked. Until 1999, Apple charged $1.00 license fee per port. In May 1999, a consortium of 11 companies announced a joint licensing agreement that brought the cost down to a more reasonable $0.25 per system.
http://www.macobserver.com/news/99/may/990512/newfirewirelincensing.html
However, I read somewhere else that the cost of USB licensing is $0.01 per port, so Firewire was never even in the game for volume.
Too bad. It’s a better standard.
I use target disk mode twice a day. Once in the morning to sync my laptop at high speed with my desktop at work, and once more in the evening to do the same thing. It takes 5 minutes, but without TDM I would have to sync across the network for over an hour.
Maybe there’s some other high method but I haven’t found it.
Education is a huge market Apple has just stiffed.
We have money invested in firewire peripherals – interfaces, drives, and cameras.
We won’t be “upgrading”. The older model looks like run-out stock that won’t be available by the time we come to purchase. The MacBook Pro is out of our budget range.
We’ll be looking at PC Laptops that offer firewire connectivity.
One more point: It’s fine for Steve to mention the new cameras all having USB2, but we are hardly going to rush out and purchase a whole lot of new cameras (not to mention hard drives) as well as new laptops. Most schools are in a similar situation.
Tthere would be less anger if Apple was not removing a port with no replacement port offered. ie. The previous MacBook has USB2 AND Firewire – now Steve is saying this new one is a step up when it has LESS connectivity and doesn’t outperform the previous model?!
He must be seriously deluded.
This is a problem with a single source vendor of hardware who makes a limited product line. Sometims they’re going to make decisions you don’t like, but there’s nothing you can do. If you ran Windows, you’d just pick a laptop vendor who had FireWire or use a USB to Firewire converter, which are available for the PC.
But someone will see this outrage and soon offer a Mac $49.95 USB to Firewire converter and this problem of using legacy firewire devices will become history.
In the not too distant future, probably no new Mac will have FireWire. I’ll miss it. Target Disk Mode was something unique to Macs because of FireWire (and SCSI before it).
I guess the value of FireWire-only external drives and other FireWire-based peripherals just took a nose dive.
>MDN wrote: We’re still trying to figure out how Apple…plans to resolve the dichotomy between MacBooks that ship with iMovie and the lack of a FireWire port for DV cameras.
Why don’t you try and figure out how to jump off Steve’s left nut. Will you ever stop being a bunch of Apple fluff girls?
Glossy has better color etc.etc, but IF you sit with light splashing on to the screen, it can get a bit iffy.
WHY the F*** would you sit with light hitting your screen? It will make it more difficult to see, matte or glossy.
FireWire is great, but its a dying protocol, sadly.
Apple tried to make it fly, but all those cheap-ass PC people wouldnt bite. So its USB or a Macbook Pro.
Or are you really going to go back to Windows?
If so, then you must be even more dumb than your posts suggests.
SO: Stop the glossy and FW complaints – they dont hold very much water, do they?
If you are angry at Apple, then go see a counsellor.
Your anger is NOT at Apple, you have issues much deeper than anger at a computer co. that has no real connection to you. Maybe you need to get laid. Who knows, but it aint Apple that is making you nuts, its YOU.
Its really not possible to get more than irritated with a company – think about it.
If you still MUST HAVE matte, get a 17″ Macbook Pro.
NOW STOP THIS SILLINESS.
@ Grant Woods:
Cameras in a school are few in number, I would guess.
They also cost about $400 – $600 to replace, and wear out much more quickly than the Macbooks.
Surely you would use the ‘books you have and the cameras you have until they crap out.
That might be another 5 years.
When it comes time to replace equipment, you will just have to deal with the fact that almost NO cameras have FW any more.
“We’ll be looking at PC Laptops that offer firewire connectivity.”
Windows? You would inflict Windows on kids?
What kind of frickin sadist are you, man?
Thats why we home school our kids – these illogical and angry posts remind me what assholes most teachers are……
I justy don’t see the problem. If you need firewire, buy the old white macbook or the macbook pro. It’s not like there is no way to have an apple laptop with firewire, just that two of the models, air and aluminum macbook, don’t. So there is a choice, one cheap and one expensive. You can even bring out the old spray-paint can and paint your white new white macbook aluminum.
Also, seems like a lucrative market for someone to make a firewire hub that connects to usb, or a firewire to usb single cable. Probably won’t take more than a few months.
Rather than venting your frustration here, direct it at Apple here:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html
Could be a little more effective.
Wow, the fanbois are out in force today.
If El Jobso took a dump in each and every Macbook, the fanbois would say it was a worthwhile addition to the machine.
The removal of Firewire is definitely premature, as there is no complete replacement for its duties. They only just made it a “pro” feature, it wasn’t alway such.
And as for glossy screens only, well, that too is also a boneheaded decision.
It’s annoying that they assume they know what you want as a customer. Sometimes they’re right, in fact often so, but not this time. And not on laptops costing more than $1K.
I don’t mind about the fire, but would have been nice to see the express card in this laptop… at least then i could have dual firewire or dual esata via expresscards and that would cater for everything i need…..
It’s a doosey for sure… sub standard notebook for that ridiculous price point..
I can understand how some people are majorly pissed off at this decision and I understand their position but as a MacBook Pro user for the last year I have never used my FireWire ports ever (neither 400 or 800) seeing as I don’t own anything that uses the port.
No Firewire may be a deal breaker for using the MacBook in mobile audio recording. USB is fine for certain applications, but Firewire is a Digi Pro Tools requirement and more stable / low latency for multitrack recording in general. I think Apple is betting these folks want the bigger MBP screen anyway.
Some were raging when Apple droped floppy disks!
I was sad when Apple droped integrated SCSI AND the SERIAL cables… But who cares now?
Really, everything changes constantly.
You hate glossy screen? Hey! There are mate films around to stick on!
Adapt yourself to the changes, and everything will be just fine!
i remember the days when everything ‘just worked’ on a mac…. Jobs aesthetic for style and slimness is now hindering the very products we once enjoyed..
@Sky and simon
Using a notebook for serious job? For few more $ you have the Pro model… This is NOT a deal breaker if you earn you money with a notebook.
I’m with you almux except the smaller footprint of the MB is a nice-to-have for pro mobile applications. I would love a 13″ or even a 12″ for this. The 15″ is a good size / performance compromise, and I would never haul a 17″ MBP anywhere, pro application or not.
Like the common adage about today’s digital cameras, the best laptop computer in the world is the one you have with you when you need it.
Sky
I feel sorry for DROBO. Finally caving into overwhelming demand for Firewire 800, they’ve just ended producing models with USB.
And if you haven’t met FW DROBO, I suggest you look into it. At least, if you have a FW computer, that is.
All tape-based video-cameras (mini-DV and HDV) need FireWire. USB in those cameras is only for the photos. When people note that most cameras are HD and memory card based these days, and so Apple doesn’t need to include FireWire anymore, that’s a bit short-sighted. As most cameras prior to maybe 12-18 months ago were tape-based or mini-DVD (which the slot-loading drive will not accept). You can still buy consumer HDV cameras from Canon and Sony, such as the HV30. My HDV camera is a mere 18 months old. So most consumers, and I’m not talking about you gadget lovers, will have a tape-based camera. Also, the market is flooded with these cameras and people will have lots of tapes at home. If you borrow a camera from school or from the university, these will likely be mini-DV or HDV. We’re still at the crossroads, and are just now moving away from tape. It’s too soon to omit FireWire. That said, clearly the new MacBooks are not aimed at the crowd that has tape-based DV cameras, but young and educated people, and gadget freaks, who more easily buy new cameras. Still, I find it too soon to say goodbye to FireWire. Maybe in about 12 months we would be there. It’s just so Apple to ditch a format earlier just to make a statement, signaling that things are changing.
To those making the analogy with the time Apple ditched the floppy and SCSI, at least at that time, there were external floppy alternatives, and even SCSI adapters to USB. No such adapter will exist with FireWire. And even if there were an adapter made, it would have many compatibility problems, and also it would not be able to stream the full quality DV, and also not in real time.
Also, the white MacBook is available now, but you’ll see that in 6 months, it will be gone. FireWire will be ditched also from the Mac mini, and maybe even the iMac come January. I’m not able to buy a computer now, maybe in about 6 months and can only afford one replacement, and not the expensive ones. My Mac is getting old and I cannot use it to edit HDV, and DV only just about. I bought a good HDV camera with the thought that I could always edit the HDV when I buy a new Mac. But now, FireWire will be gone, and I have to buy a new camera also, even though it’s still working well? I don’t think so. A camera investment is no investment at all anymore, it seems.
C’mon people!
GROW UP!
Go here, spend $9 bucks, get an adapter – case closed!
https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/1394B6912C/
C’mon Mister Ejag!
READ UP!
We’re talking about the MacBook, which doesn’t have FireWire, not the MacBook Pro, which does have FireWire.
And according to the MacDailyNews poll, it’s a deal-breaker for 25 percent. 10 percent Google for the adapter. 10 percent rather buy a MacBook Pro (then going for other alternatives). That’s at least 45 percent that’s FireWire dependent. For 19 percent it’s an annoyance, but will work around it. So maybe another good 5 percent of that actually need FireWire, but maybe will buy a new camera, or something. That’s 50 percent that actually want or need FireWire. It’s currently only not an issue for 35 percent of the vote. That’s pretty low.
Now this poll will probably change and percentages will shift. And the poll is probably skewed. Still, I think it will show that omiting FireWire is still a huge deal.
“It’s just so Apple to ditch a format earlier just to make a statement, signaling that things are changing.”
So stop whining and buy a PC. You can still find many models with FireWire at all price points. Just how compromised does your Mac experience have to become before you realize that you do have a real alternative? And if you want Mac OS X and FireWire, well just shut up and pay the higher price.
The omission of FW400 is understandable, mostly in that for most users (particularly with 50% of buyers being new Switchers), USB2 can functionally take its place.
However, I do think that Apple missed the boat here, in two ways.
First, having a FW port creates product differentiation, even if it isn’t going to be used by many users. With the Mac already being more expensive than PC equivalents, this difference makes direct comparisons more difficult (FW being an ‘intangible’ of sorts): this is very much what Apple did with the early adoption of Gigabit Ethernet.
Afterall – – how much money are we really talking about? Its the cost of an Oxford 924 cpu ($xx) and a right-angle solder-on port ($1.25). Given that there’s aftermarket USB-FW800 boards that RETAIL for $75 or less, the incremental cost to Apple has to be $20 at most IMO.
Second, FW400 shouldn’t have ever been the port in question: the proper configuration should have been FW800 for the MacBook and FW3200 for the MacBook Pro.
-hh
“And according to the MacDailyNews poll, it’s a deal-breaker for 25 percent”
Except once those people are finished whining about how their precious Apple has screwed them once again, they’ll go out and buy a new hard disk or camera or get the white MacBook or a MBP. What else were they going to do? Get Windows PCs?
What this “Notification” does is let the FireWire users know FireWire’s life with Apple is limited and make different purchasing decisions for HDDs, cameras etc over the coming year.
To Compromised an others alike,
So if you’re a loyal Mac fan, and a little angry at Apple’s decision, I should just stop whining and buy a PC? And I should just shut up and pay the higher price, when previously when I bought a Mac I didn’t have to? Yes, times are changing when we Mac users were all civil towards each other, and supported each other even though we had different opinions, and when criticism towards Apple was considered constructive and valid. Oh, we once had fun together.
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I really find it offensive that these days, when we complain a little, people at many boards just say: shut up, and buy a PC then. That never happened when the Mac wasn’t as popular as now. I’m a little disappointed in the current Mac community. Every time we share our criticism, there are some angry people out there who won’t allow it. What, Apple is just King and we should kiss Jobs feet? Eventually, yes, as I am a Mac user and a loyal one. But not even being allowed to criticise Apple anymore? I should just be silent because it’s better for the Apple stock and growth of Apple? No way. We’re all Mac users. And I’m fine with people saying that they haven’t used FireWire and see no need for it. It’s just rude for the same people to say that those who do need it should just shut up, and are in the wrong.
And like I said, yes now we have choice, but in six months FireWire will be gone across the board, or at least, that’s what many fear. And it’s not nice to not know if the consumer Mac will still have the standard in 6 months. I would have less problem with it when Apple would just state that FireWire will be gone in six months. At least then I could tap into my savings (which I would rather not do) to replace my Mac now.
I’m still raging over the murder of Apple’s iCards. I don’t even like notebooks, but I’ll join this club, too!
Whoa. Sure is a bitch fest a goin’ on. Some people just want to complain, even when there are simple solutions to their issues.
As stated earlier, if you’re wanting a matte finish for your new MacBook or MBP, just purchase a matte film. They work great–I have one on my iPhone just for screen protection, and after months of regular use, it is still virtually scratch free. Imagine how long one will last on a notebook screen–essentially the life of the ‘puter! And the one I looked at (for MacBooks) is a whopping $34.95.
So, to the whiners, the gripers, the moaners, find a solution to your issues and move on.
This is one of the main reasons that whenever i buy a peripheral (external HDDs, etc), I always try to get one with both FireWire and USB connections. You just never know…
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For many of you, the lack of Firewire is a non-issue. But for anyone who’s involved in pro audio, digital video, or IT work, the Firewire port is essential.
What’s really disappointing about this is that Apple has very cavalierly blown off a huge portion of its most loyal and committed user base — the creative enthusiasts who actually use many of the higher-end hardware features of the machine. The ones who have a significant investment in Firewire-based equipment, who have built largers Firewire-based systems around their Mac.
And yes, this number is significant. Can you imagine that there’s a few kids using a Mac laptop to do audio or video projects in their bedroom? They’re using pretty expensive Firewire audio interfaces because USB audio interfaces are crap. Chances are, that kid’s next laptop will be Windows because $1200 was a stretch for him/her (or his parents), but $2000 for a Macbook Pro is simply out of reach.
How about schools who can’t possibly afford to buy a Macbook Pro for every student/teacher, but who don’t want to invest in old tech (white Macbook) and need Target Disk Mode to maximize the efficiency of a skeleton IT staff? They are no longer Macbook customers.
The worst characteristic of Apple is fast becoming its secrecy with regard to its plans moving forward. Last week I may have gone out and bought a $1000 Firewire audio interface with money I’ve been saving for a year. This week I learn that Firewire is no longer in Apple’s plans. It sure would have been nice to know that six months ago so I could have begun planning.
Apple has a tendency to make sweeping changes and damn the consequences. That was okay when it was a niche player, but now, as more and more people are getting on board, they are depending on Apple to provide stability, a roadmap for future interface adds and deletes, and the decency to not burn them on peripheral hardware purchases. Otherwise, APple will quickly develop a reputation as a hardware maker that lives in its own little world and doesn’t care about playing nice with others.
What happened to “you just plug it in, and it works”? It’s not just video cams, Steve.
Does anyone else wonder if this is the beginning of the end for Firewire on the “consumer” Macs? I’m very concerned that it’ll be missing from the Pro laptops at the next refresh. I’d like to know from Apple exactly which models they plan to phase Firewire out from.
And if Firewire is going away, period, I think there are a *lot* of audio and video professionals who would appreciate advance notice of that.
Apple, the ball”s in your court. I seriously think it’s time for you to be a little more forthcoming to your loyal customers about this kind of thing.
Peace.
To those who don’t understand Apple’s current MacBook lineup:
The LOW END MacBook STILL HAS FIREWIRE 400! And the cost now is only $999!
It is still the white plastic case, and has Firewire 400 just as it always has.
Firewire was only lost on the two ‘uni-body’ aluminum models. And yeah, I agree this sucks. But you can get an adapter cable for $25 or a universal hub for $30.
So please folks, stop your whining! You can still get the most excellent white MacBook, one of which I am joyfully typing on right now, and have Firewire 400. $999! OK? Here are links where you read about it:
http://www.apple.com/macbook/white/
http://www.apple.com/macbook/white/specs.html
“I’m glad somebody else noticed. Even the cheapo $500 JVC HDD camcorder I bought last year is USB only. FireWire is dead folks, it’s time to move on…”
Always glad to move on. So can I give you the address where you should send me the check to purchase a new USB-equipped camcorder?
Real Macintosh computers don’t have vampire video.
Real Macs do not have cheap polarized, glossy screens like a Dell or Gateway.
Real Macs have a stinking FireWire port.
If I wanted a cheap intel laptop without FireWire, I ‘d buy a Dell.
Apple, your chintziness and chiseling soul has no end. You effed up.
Some people here have suggested that Firewire had not “caught on” with consumers. No, the only people who decide what has “caught on” are the makers of products. They, for whatever reason (almost surely it has to do with money at some level, no?), decide which technology is the one that they demand consumers “catch up” on, and then go ahead and drop whatever it is that they want to drop.
I’m glad Apple customers are pissed off about the lack of a Firewire port and making a big noise about it. It doesn’t happen often, but it’s nice when the buyer says loudly: “Uh, oh, not so fast, bud . . . . . . . .”
Thing is, it all boils down eventually to trust. After Apple jigged around big-time with iMovie after having heavily promoted a previous version, I have become wary about each new product they put out. What is going to be missing the next time? It seems almost certain that within a short period of years, USB 2.0 may go the way of the dodo – and then it’s off to the store again to buy a whole new slew of devices that connect via Watchamacalit 3.0?
Inexcusable. Obviously Steve Jobs never intends to use a MacBook so he never realized that no Firewire should have meant an extreme price cut. When did Apple become Dell?
@derekcurrie
“To those who don’t understand Apple’s current MacBook lineup:
The LOW END MacBook STILL HAS FIREWIRE 400! And the cost now is only $999!”
This is an overstock item. My guess is they had a bunch in stock, they’re clearing them out, and when they’re gone, they’re gone. Look at the rest of the lineup — it’s all aluminum. The white Macbook is a white elephant. Why would I want to go out and spend $1000 on a 2-3 year old model that’s about to be discontinued? Would you do that? (Apparently you would)
There are no Mac OS X-compatible adaptor cables or universal hubs that will provide Firewire over USB. And even if there were, you’d still be limited to the throughput of the USB port, which is the very reason that Firewire is essential for audio/video — it has a greater sustained throughput than USB 2.
And finally, what about Target Disk Mode? There’s no solution for that going away.
To all you people for whom this is not an issue: stop telling people to stop “whining.” It’s not whining, it’s expression of legitimate concern. Just because it’s not important to *you* doesn’t mean that it’s not important.
I hate the argument being made by some that if you are a “professional musician” you should be able to afford a pro machine that will enable you to use the superior audio interfaces which use firewire. That argument basically says you have to be rich to achieve professional results.
What about the person who understands that a Macbook has a the power to handle recording but would like to invest their money into a professional sounding interface (and all the other things that go into recording). Once the macbook “classic” is out of inventory those users will have no choice but to buy old hardware or go to the pro line.
Of course there are significant advantages to moving to the pro line but it is not always practical or possible. Now the apple line is less democratic.
I understand Apple’s reasons.
This probably won’t hurt apple.
I understand MOST users probably won’t even miss Firewire.
Those who do need it I think have a valid argument.
“And if Firewire is going away, period, I think there are a *lot* of audio and video professionals who would appreciate advance notice of that.”
You can’t be serious, someone had to tell you FireWire was losing in the marketplace? You’d be one of those cigarette smokers going for compensation and saying “Well judge, despite all the evidence around me the company never told me they were dangerous”
@ Personal Responsibility
“You can’t be serious, someone had to tell you FireWire was losing in the marketplace? You’d be one of those cigarette smokers going for compensation and saying “Well judge, despite all the evidence around me the company never told me they were dangerous”
That is the most moronic comment I’ve yet seen on this topic. It shows that not only are you unable to read previous posts, but that you know absolutely nothing about the topic you’re criticizing.
Go look here:
http://www.sweetwater.com/c683–FireWire_Audio_Interfaces
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=firewire+video+interface&go=Go!
http://shopping.msn.com/specs/avid-mojo-video-input-adapter-firewire/itemid24773411/?itemtext=itemname:avid-mojo-video-input-adapter-firewire&fulldesc=1
These are just a few examples of pro-level audio and video interfaces that are used in every pro and semi-pro recording studio and video house in the nation. They are ALL Firewire. The audio and video industries DEPEND on Firewire. USB does NOT cut it.
If Firewire goes away on the Mac product line, I can <u>guarantee</u> you it’ll have a negative impact on the Mac’s popularity in these former Mac strongholds. Firewire won’t vanish on the PC. It’s a lot easier to replace the computer and get a Firewire card for a Windows box than it is to replace thousands of dollars of Firewire-only peripheral equipment.
Sheesh. Is this really so hard to understand.
OMFG: I can’t believe the devoted IGNORANCE about this sad subject. It is getting terribly boring:
‘oh no my shorts’ gets it wrong:
@derekcurrie
“”To those who don’t understand Apple’s current MacBook lineup:
The LOW END MacBook STILL HAS FIREWIRE 400! And the cost now is only $999!””
‘This is an overstock item.’
No. It’s not. I was just at the local Apple Store today. They reiterated to me what was already obvious: No. The white MacBook is not an overstock item. To believe so is PURE INVENTION. You probably believe in little green faeries that come in the night and sprinkle your eyes with sand.
READ READ READ! Cure your ignorance kids!
http://www.apple.com/macbook/white/
http://www.apple.com/macbook/white/specs.html
http://www.applestore.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook?mco=MTE3MjA
“The does-everything-you-want MacBook. Just $999.”
“MacBook also includes two USB 2.0 ports, a FireWire 400 port…”
“Connections and expansion: …FireWire 400 port (up to 400 Mbps)”
There, I fed you babies your bottle. Now shut the f*ck up and buy a WHITE MacBook instead. Apple has NOT abandoned you. Social Services is NOT taking you away so you’ll never see Firewire again. Got it yet? Or do I need to repeat myself ANOTHER THREE TIMES?
Whiners.
White plastic iMac: gone. Replaced with aluminum.
White plastic eMac: gone, not replaced.
White plastic iBook: gone
White plastic Macbook: replacement aluminum Macbook is available now. Going, going…
It’s old technology. It’s the old style. It <u>is</u> on its way to being discontinued. I give it until MacWorld 2009. iCal it!
HEY!
Get the WHITE MacBook.
NOT the Aluminum MacBook.
Get the one with FIREWIRE.
That’s the WHITE MacBook.
I said the WHITE MacBook.
Yes, the W H I T E one.
W-H-I-T-E.
Get it?
Then get it!
oh I wet my short is so fricking stoopid.
FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD
Just shut the hell up you moron.
“It is on its way to being discontinued.”
And you have ZERO data to backup your idiotic piece of FUD.
Why does it take RANTING AND SCREAMING to try to get through to few total fools who hang around here.
*Apologies to the majority or people here who bother to use there intelligence*
No ‘shorts’, I said SHUT THE F*CK UP!
Look, derekcurrie. Go here:
http://www.apple.com/
And look at what they’re showing. It’s the two new aluminum Macbooks, with the text, “Meet the <u>next</u> generation of notebooks.”
From that simple sentence, can you figure out that the white Macbook is the <u>last</u> generation of Macbooks? Which means that it’s old technology. It’s been around for years. It’s not an upgrade. And it’s going to be discontinued soon.
MDN, thanks for being patient. I’m not going to respond to derekcurrie any more.
oh no my shorts are leaking turd
sez:
FUD FUD FUD FUD
IGNORANT
BORING
FUD FUD FUD FUD
yawn yawn yawn yawn
“So please folks, stop your whining! You can still get the most excellent white MacBook, one of which I am joyfully typing on right now, and have Firewire 400. $999! OK?”
Sounds like someone just bought their first Macbook and doesn’t like being told that it’s obsolete.
Never bought a Mac, just to have it discontinued three months later, have you, son? Yawn. Stick around. Once that happens to you three or four times, you’ll learn how it works.
“If Firewire goes away on the Mac product line, I can guarantee you it’ll have a negative impact on the Mac’s popularity in these former Mac strongholds.”
It’s going away in the consumer space. Heck there’s still people who use IEEE-488 for some specialized applications and how long since you saw an IEEE-488 printer or disk drive? But you can still buy an IEEE-488 expresscard.
Perhaps you should be whining for Steve to add an Expresscard slot to MacBooks. At least that has a future.
You’ll be able to find a FireWire expresscard for a long time after FireWire disappears from the MacBook Pros. That’ll work for those niche applicaitons you mention.
… should shut the hell up.
@Compromised said:
“So stop whining and buy a PC. You can still find many models with FireWire at all price points. Just how compromised does your Mac experience have to become before you realize that you do have a real alternative? And if you want Mac OS X and FireWire, well just shut up and pay the higher price.”
For starters, switching from OS X to Vista is WAY too much of a compromise to justify a hardware platform switch.
Second, I have built an entire multimedia workflow – web, audio, video editing, presentations, photo, illustration, DTP, file management – on the OS X platform and can say with confidence that the same value / quality tools do not exist on the Windows side. I say this after many years working with Windows-based multimedia tools and workflows, including consulting in tools development with the big players. We did some amazing things in Windows, and at the end of the day I went home to my Mac workstation and got my creative work done.
Today, having no Firewire on the Macbook is only an issue because some of us have been hoping for a 12″ Powerbook replacement – small, mighty and suitable for Pros. I walked by a coffee shop just yesterday and saw a dude typing away on his 12″ PB with a self-satisfied smile on his face – go figure.
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The right answer for pros buying today is the Macbook Pro, which offers Firewire plus cardbus expansion, and thankfully it’s only a bit larger than the Macbook.
But as others have noted, the long term picture is cloudy. Firewire is vanishing from new mac laptop models faster than the industry is letting go of Firewire. For one, Digidesign certifies only Firewire and eSata drives for recording, and strongly advises against recording onto the system drive. So unless Apple plans to support FW or eSata on its roadmap, engineers with big Firewire audio investments are right to be concerned that even the 15″ MBP may not be viable in the future. A clear statement of support from Apple would be much appreciated.
For audio, it would be nice if one eSata port becomes a Mac laptop standard, and if Apple implements Firewire over ethernet, or else something like Uniwire as Muse Research is doing on Receptor.
In any case, Apple dropping Firewire from its 2008 Macbooks feels a bit premature to me.
“For starters, switching from OS X to Vista is WAY too much of a compromise to justify a hardware platform switch.”
So as I said, shut up and pay the higher price.
“The right answer for pros buying today is the Macbook Pro, which offers Firewire plus cardbus expansion”
So as I said, shut up and pay the higher price.
@Compromised:
The new 15″ MBP is a good option which I and many other Mac-based engineers will likely go with. But again, for me it’s a mobility issue and not a price issue, so I don’t know why you keep tossing out your “higher price” comment. I dig the 13″ MB form factor and am disappointed that FW was left out, by design, in 2008, while so much of the audio / video industry still relies on the standard. We’re not talking SCSI here, and we should be talking eSata in my opinion.
Likewise, OS X versus Vista is a workflow issue and not a price issue, so same comment as above.
“I dig the 13” MB form factor “
But the MacBook is a colossus, a beast carved from pure aluminum, probably the heaviest 13″ notebook brought to market this millemium. The MacBook is the fat girl at the portability prom. The Air is there too as the MacBook’s slightly less chunky sister, standing there in her 3lb glory next to her 2lb classmates.
Both are held in by highly tensioned corsets of pure aluminium which disguise their true weight from the onlookers. But fat heavy pigs they are.
I’m not fat, I’m just big boned!
LOL, touche Weight!
Sky
Macs have always been on the leading edge of change and innovation, from the first computer called “portable”. At 17 lbs it wasn’t that portable but it was a start. The first computer with ONLY an optical drive. The first computers with Firewire and the first mainstream computer with OUT Firewire. You “professionals” sure are not that innovative. I have a few items that are firewire only products, but I will do what all dedicated mac users and all people that are interested in NEW technology do when NEW things come out. Ill adjust, ill change. For those a$$holes that can’t get over a MINOR inconvenience, Get A PC and talk to Dirka Dirka Mohammad when it breaks.
Here is a link to a adaptor, that WILL work with Mac.
http://www.buy.com/prod/trendnet-usb-firewire-adapter-for-tc-nt2-usb-firewire-trendnet-usb/q/loc/101/205852397.html
It plugs into the ethernet port. Hope that helps you fools.
Its not just the camcorder issue, its Audio issue. Multitrack recording on a computer is firewire. The usb versions cant handle the load of all that audio. Macbook was a great mobile recording studio for a great price with firewire….no more.
For me, the only issue is that I cannot use the new Macbook with a Firewire drive containing Pro Tools audio session data. Digidesign certifies FW and not USB for this application, and USB drives generally cause read / write errors due to how they process realtime streams. Without FW, there is no obvious workaround on the Macbook (e.g. adapter cable won’t work) which will require me to carry the larger Macbook Pro if I want to edit on the road.
That’s the only issue – not a show stopper but a shame because the new Macbook is such a nice portable package.
One alternative to explore is how well the 128GB solid state drive option will work for editing audio. This is plenty of space for storing one or two active projects alongside system and apps. If it works, then the Firewire omission may be no big deal.
Sky
@ oh no my shorts
You said “For many of you, the lack of Firewire is a non-issue. But for anyone who’s involved in pro audio, digital video, or IT work, the Firewire port is essential.”
Then you buy the MacBook PRO. You said anyone involved in PRO audio. PRO. MacBooks have always been created as entry level for the NON PRO. Geeez!! All the Pro’s I know have a MacBook PRO. And they have MacPro’s NOT Mac Mini’s.
@MacRaven,
LOL, I can also haul my iMac around in a transportable case. But the point is, I’m going to buy one laptop to carry everywhere and occasionally do audio, and smaller is better.
I agree with you that pro users should buy a pro Mac. We’re just talking about the pros who miss the discontinued 12″ MBP and see how close the new MB came to filling this need. If the inclusion of a FW port would have ruined an otherwise brilliant design, then I can certainly understand and accept that.
Firewire is awesome.
Apple dumping it for 13″ machines is lame.
I now dub this thread the LAMEST I have ever encountered here at MDN.
I cannot believe the deliberate and stubbornly consistent ignorance posted here over and over and over ad nauseam.
How many times has it been said here? At least 7 times by me:
If you want a MacBook with Firewire, buy the WHITE MacBook. It’s CHEAPER than the aluminum MacBook too! Pay less, get Firewire. Shocking. $999. It’s not going away. Wipe away your tears.
But you’re determined to be clueless. Shame on you all. Go on. Flame me! But I’m right! And you’re wrong! And I can prove it! All anyone has to do is go to this web address!
http://www.apple.com/macbook/white/
And the lameness shall continue. Just watch…
“I cannot believe the deliberate and stubbornly consistent ignorance posted here over and over and over ad nauseam.”
LOL, and Derek keeps on reading! I rather enjoy this thread, Derek’s comments included. It’s not about caving in and buying last year’s model; it’s about media pros and others being invested enough in Apple to debate what direction the company is going.
@derekcurrie:
You know, I used to really enjoy & respect your comments, but I believe that you’re way, way, way off base here.
While I agree that technically, I can go buy the <u>not-yet-discontinued</u> White MacBook, if I believed that the White MacBook was a solid enough product, I would have bought it a year ago when it first came out.
Please also understand that for me, its <u>not</u> about cost: I paid $1800 for my 12″ PB years ago and I’m willing to pay the “MBP” price now, but only if it kept its features while also hitting the smaller form factor/weight.
Now you (or anyone else) can go “boo hoo” about how the 15″ MBP “Not all that much heavier, but that’s being apologetic and disregarding other customers’ needs.
For example, I injured my back several years ago and it still acts up occasionally, so not traveling light isn’t a particularly good option. FWIW, I did consider the MB Air for quite awhile, and in light of the MacBook not having FW, I still am. The question is … not cost … but if it will be able to do the job that I want for it to do, given its I/O performance limitations.
Amongst other options, I very well might go drop another $1000 to upgrade/replace my two Hyperdrive HD80’s…they’re a better alternative because of their weight and that they provide very fast card transfers in the field. Not coincidentally, they’re able to do that because they also don’t use USB2 for that.
-hh