“Apple has rolled out a slick new 17-inch version of its MacBook Pro, the Intel-powered replacement for the Powerbook. It’s cool, lovely and fast (up to four times faster than the old one) and can run Windows thanks to Boot Camp software. The downside? Price. Expect to fork over $2,800 for one with a gig of RAM. I love Apple hardware but that price makes me think more than twice when you can get a couple of decent Dells and change back for the same coin,” James Derk () writes for for Scripps Howard News Service. “At $1,999 the thing is worth a look; at $1,599 it’s a category killer. It just needs to get a thousand bucks cheaper somehow. Does Moore’s Law apply to Apples?”
[James Derk is co-owner of CyberDads, a computer repair firm, and computer columnist for Scripps Howard News Service.]
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: Well, now. We hereby publicly challenge Mr. Derk to find a Dell laptop that meets the following specifications that costs less than half the price of Apple’s new 17-inch MacBook Pro. And look up “Moore’s Law” while you’re at it.
Apple 17-inch MacBook Pro specs for US$2,799 configuration:
• 2.16GHz Intel Core Duo
• 1GB (single SODIMM) of PC2-5300 (667MHz) DDR2 memory
• 667MHz frontside bus
• OS: Mac OS X
• 120GB 5400-rpm Serial ATA hard drive or 100GB 7200-rpm drive
• One FireWire 400
• One FireWire 800
• Three USB 2.0 ports
• 17-inch display
• 6.8 pounds
• 1.0 inch thin
• 8x SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
• ExpressCard/34 slot
• Built-in 54-Mbps AirPort Extreme wireless networking (802.11g standard)
• Built-in Bluetooth 2.0+EDR (Enhanced Data Rate)
• Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T Gigabit Ethernet
• ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics processor, dual link DVI support, 256MB of GDDR3
• DVI output port
• Built-in iSight camera
• MagSafe Power Adapter port
• Apple Remote
Now, of course, the Dell is hobbled from the outset as it is OS-limited and cannot run the world’s most advanced operating system, Mac OS X. Apple’s MacBook Pro can run Mac OS X, Windows, Linux, and basically any other OS you care to run. So for our challenge, we’ll be extremely generous and pretend that major differentiator doesn’t exist. We’ll go even further and also pretend that the MacBook Pro’s included iLife ’06 and Front Row software are meaningless, too. So, can Mr. Derk or anybody find a Dell laptop that meets the following specifications that costs less than half the price of Apple’s new 17-inch MacBook Pro?
Oh, wait! Before you try it, Mr. Derk, we see your ruse. You wrote “you can get a couple of decent Dells and change back for the same coin,” so you allow yourself copious wiggle room to choose any two pieces of crap from Dell’s bargain bin, label them “decent,” and prance around CyberDads jingling your extra change? Hey, co-owners of computer repair firms wouldn’t like it too much if everyone’s computer just worked, now would they? What is the going rate for a Windows wipe and reinstall due to unrecoverable spyware/malware infestations these days, anyway? But, we digress.
So, back to the fun, two can play at that game. Our generosity, however, has now been rescinded. The ability to run Mac OS X and iLife, etc. plus Windows matters. It matters a lot. So, let’s first visit Dell’s website and find something that’s as close to Apple’s flagship MacBook Pro 17-inch as possible:
Dell XPS M1710 (catchy) specs:
• 2.16GHz Intel Core Duo
• 1GB (single SODIMM) of PC2-5300 (667MHz) DDR2 memory
• 667MHz frontside bus
• OS: Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
• 100GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive
• One 4-pin IEEE 1394 (FireWire 400)
• Six USB 2.0 ports
• 17-inch display
• 8.8 pounds
• 1.67 inch thick
• 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
• Intel PRO/Wireless 3945 802.11a/g Mini Card (54Mbps)
• Dell Wireless 350 Bluetooth Internal (2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate)
• Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
• 512MB NVIDIA GeForce Go 7900 GTX
• DVI output port
• Remote Control for Windows XP Media Center Edition
Total cost = US$4,008. (Not a typo, not Canadian dollars or Singapore Dollars; and for the world’s ugliest, heaviest, colored light glowing, OS-limited, bathroom-scale-looking POS, no less. By the way, it’s a good thing we’re fairly advanced Web surfers; navigating Dell’s bait and switch Web morass and actually getting a list of specs together to compare with Apple’s product is nearly impossible.)
Okay, so with the Dell, we get a screen with a bit higher res (Windows’ inferior UI needs the extra room), 3 more USB ports, a better video card, but no FireWire 800 port, no built-in camera, no MagSafe power port, and no built-in ambient light sensing keyboard and display. We do get (thankfully) Anti-Virus/Security Suite Pre-installed PC-cillin Internet Security: AntiVirus, Firewall, and 15-months of Spyware removal (sounds fun, see what you’re missing Macheads?), but no ability to run Mac OS X or any of the best-in-class Apple Mac-only apps like GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, iWeb, iPhoto, etc. – plus the Dell is much thicker, two pounds heavier, and immeasurably uglier.
So, who’s getting ripped off here, exactly? Which company’s flagship portable laptop is really the better deal? The one that will win design awards around the world or the one that, when closed, people will mistakenly try to step on to see how much they weigh? To paraphrase Derk, the Dell just needs to get a $1,209 cheaper somehow, learn how to run Mac OS X, grow a FireWire 800 port, a built-in camera, gain a first-class industrial designer, and shed two pounds and nearly half its thickness before it would warrant even a cursory look.
By the way, you can get two 15.4-inch MacBook Pros and $10 change for the same coin as the $4,008 Dell XPS M1710.
Advertisements:
• Get the new iMac with Intel Core Duo for as low as $31 A MONTH with Free shipping!
• Get the MacBook Pro with Intel Core Duo for as low as $47 A MONTH with Free Shipping!
• Apple’s new Mac mini. Intel Core, up to 4 times faster. Starting at just $599. Free shipping.
• Apple’s brand new iPod Hi-Fi speaker system. Home stereo. Reinvented. Available now for $349 with free shipping.
• iPod. 15,000 songs. 25,000 photos. 150 hours of video. The new iPod. 30GB and 60GB models start at just $299. Free shipping.
• Connect iPod to your television set with the iPod AV Cable. Just $19.
• iPod Radio Remote. Listen to FM radio on your iPod and control everything with a convenient wired remote. Just $49.
Related article:
Dude, you got a Dell? What are you, stupid? Only Apple Macs run both Mac OS X and Windows! – April 05, 2006
maybe he needs a couple of active braincells to review it properly
I can actually agree with MDN’s take because it contains logic instead of propaganda — a rare occurrence for MDN! :~)
Ha, ass.
Why can’t natural selection apply to stupid people?
If he keeps it up, stupid people won’t buy Macs, and they’re the ones who need a trouble-free computer the most! :p
One little typo in his e-mail and you’d send it to
jerk@yahoo.com
Coincidence, I think not ; )
I’m not defending the guy, but maybe what he actually means is that he can get some desktops for the price of a laptop. Maybe in his mind, apple = laptop, dell = desktop.
just copied and pasted MDN’s take to him.
to quote that contemporary philosopher, comedian Ron White….
“you can fix any part of your body at the Dr.’s office now-a-days. But you can’t fix stupid!”
Cute that MDN configured it with the optional GTX version of the 7900 card, which racks in an extra $400.
Preach it Brother!!! YES! That MDN Take ROCKS!
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” /> I always knew Dells were sh!te, but it’s beautiful to see it spelled out.
“By the way, you can get two 15.4-inch MacBook Pros and $10 change for the same coin as the $4,008 Dell XPS M1710.”
Perfectly put, MDN.
I actually just picked up a refurbished MacBook Pro for $1699 and added another 512MB RAM for $49 from newegg. Such an awesome computer.
Why does the mac need a 400 and a 800 port. Wouldn’t the 800 do both?
Gosh – have you seen the Dell XPS M1710?
It really does like my bathroom scales!
– That and a sort of flattened red Xbox. Which is no coincident, methinks, as this is clearly a top of the range gaming laptop.
Glad I don’t play games.
And maybe he should stick around and compare the soon to be released new iBooks with his “decent Dells” before knocking the MacBook Pro for price. The MBP is clearly top of the range, not bargain basement.
To be fair, the Dell that MDN configured kicks the crap out of the MacBook Pro in terms of gaming performance – which is the target market of the M1710.
Configure a Dell E1710 to match the PowerBook Pro 17″, and I’m seeing $2370. (2.16Ghz, 1GB 667mhz RAM, 120GB drive, x1400 graphics – probably matches the underclocked x1600 in the MacBook Pro, bluetooth, 802.11g, upgraded battery, dual-layer DVD burner, Windows Media Center 2005)
So the actual fair challenge is the $2370 Dell vs the $2799 MacBook Pro. The extra $429 is easily worth the superior design, the smaller size and lower weight, the FireWire 800, lightup keyboard, magsafe connector and so on.
Funny.
I love how these PC hacks always love to claim that you can save soooo much money from Dell when in reality Dell usually costs the same or more than the competition once you actually add things you need in a computer like a processor and RAM.
Oh man, that rebuke was just the sweetest – GO MDN!!!
durkadurkadurkadurka
What a Djerk
… so basically this idiot that MDN is talking about is full of BS, but MDN is full of BS too. I’d say that MDN is slightly less full of BS than the dude is though. Good job MDN, for sucking less than the competition.
The MacBook Pro 17″ is overpriced.
right on !
think he’ll read it ?
Whoops, I just realized I was wrong. The stupid dude was claiming, in effect, that you can buy a similar Dell for $1350 or so (a bit less than half the price of the MacBook Pro). MDN countered that a similar Dell costs $4000.
stupid dude: underestimated price of similar Dell by $1000
MDN: overestimated price of similar Dell by $1200
…so I guess MDN actually was more full of BS in this particular case. Nice work guys. Way to stick it to ’em.
Whoops again! Jeez, I goofed again in MDN’s favor. MDN actually overestimated the price of a similar Dell by about $1600, not by merely $1200. Sorry.
Nick:
Yeah, and then use your $750 coupon for that Inspiron E1710, and suddenly your $2,370 becomes $1,620.
MDN “conveniently” forgets to mention this. Dell builds boxy laptops, to be sure, but that $1,000 sure is compelling.
“But coupons aren’t fair!” people whine. Ah, but they’re there to be used now, aren’t they?
Even if you configure an Inspiron 17″ as close as possible to the base-config MBP, it still comes to $2600ish. Pretty steep, when you consider that the Inspiron line is Dell’s equivalent to the iBook line.
This guy is barely suited to breathe, let alone comment on things like this.
MW: account; there’s no accounting for the stupidity of M$ fanbois.
Nick: if you spec out an XPS laptop, it comes out at $3500-3600 without the video upgrade that MDN applied. Yes, you can spec out a cheaper Inspiron, but comparing an Inspiron to an XPS is like comparing an iBook to a MBP. The high-end line is always going to cost more than the consumer line.
If you think the 17″ MBP is overpriced then don’t buy it.
Toby,
Why does the mac need a 400 and a 800 port. Wouldn’t the 800 do both?
So I can connect my FW400 DV Camcorder and capture to my external FW800 500GB external HD (and keep the internal HD free of raw footage) of course!
Rory:
“…comparing an Inspiron to an XPS is like comparing an iBook to a MBP.”
The Dells I was referring to:
$2300 E1505 — 2.16Ghz Core Duo, 667Mhz RAM, 5400 120GB HD, bluetooth, dual-layer DVD burner, 802,11g, upgraded battery, ATI x1400 256MB graphics
$2600 M1710 — 2.16Ghz Core Duo, 667Mhz RAM, 5400 120GB HD, bluetooth, dual-layer DVD burner, 802,11g, upgraded battery, NVidia 7800 256MB graphics
I fail to see your point.
Oops, I priced that XPS too low – I should have said $3500. You pay a lot for the 1900*1200 screen, the pretty colored lights, the kick-ass NVidia 7900 graphics, and the plasic cover with “XPS” printed on it.
Let’s also not forget the MBP looks the dog’s bollocks. That’s good if you don’t understand British vernacular.
The styling of the MBP is second to none and that is worth paying for.
Its a bargain in fact.
If you don’t like the styling go and buy a childish looking alienware lead-weight.
the best part about Dell is that its REALLY easy to figure out how to buy a compute ron their site…
easy compared to, say, solving Fermat’s Last Theorm or calculating the trajectory of an interplanetary spaceship.
cause i first didn’t know if i was a gamer, a small business or a large business…
then i didn’t know which of the 4 laptops with 4 different price points which were ALL called the M 1710 …
and the one that i configured (after it yelled at me for having a configuration conflict) came out to….
$3393.
which, honestly, pretty much sums up buying a PC – if you’ve got shit to do, and that shit you have to do is NOT spending all your time trying to figure out HOW to buy a Dell – then just buy a Mac – I’ve made it easy and simple and straight forward…
and cheaper.
Is there any such thing like a “decent Dell”?
Odd, isn’t it, that you hardly ever hear anyone say “Nah, not buying the BMW, I’m going to buy two Fords instead”?
jderk? What is that d doing in there?
Is that Dell Jerk?
Here is the link to the Dell laptop that can be configured to closely match the MacBook Pro 17′ at a lower price:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=E1705S4&s=dhs
mind you, I would prefer the MacBook Pro (I bought one), but we might as well get our facts straight.
Normally I like to do these side by side comparisons myself because I want to make sure they’re accurate but I just don’t have the time to figure out the dell website. I want to pick my computer based on the specs I want, not by telling dell what I need to do and having them tell me what I need to buy. There are different lines that can configured in different ways to approximate the hardware in the new PowerBook (I’m boycotting MBP, it’s a freaking stupid name) but since I can’t figure out which one is the most fair comparison because there is no reasoning to the divisions and lines they make I can’t say for sure who wins.
This all just goes to show that the difference between the dell and the apple isn’t hardware. It isn’t even software. It’s philosophy. Dell is add, add, add. More choices, more configurations, more case colors, more operating system flavors, more USB ports, more product lines, more company divisions, more steps to the process. Apple is simplify, simplify, simplify. Two product lines, a couple of configurations each, beautiful silver or white, the best operating system (although you can add others if you want, but apple doesn’t make you decide that at the same time you pick your hardware) fewer steps in the process. The one thing from dell that I wouldn’t mind apple stealing is the more ports philosophy. I don’t need 6 USB ports, in fact I’m fine with the two I have but I often wish I had more than one firewire 400 port.
But aside from ports, Apples’ philosophy leads to a better consumer experience for me at least. Maybe someone else out there wants to be able to pick 7 different ways to get hardware with nearly identical specs. I’m fine with the choice of 6 notebook configurations if I know that all of them are high quality.
I found out why the M1710 is so much more than the E1705:
1) The M1710 can take up to 4GB RAM, where the E1705 and MBP can only take 2GB.
2) The M1710 has a lot of pretty colored lights and bright-colored plastic casing.
3) The M1710 is available with 7900 GS or 7900 GTX graphics, either of which massively outperforms the mid-range x1600 graphics of the MacBook Pro. The E1705 is available with integrated graphics (on par with the Mac mini – ugh), x1400 256MB (on par with the MacBook Pro’s underclocked 1600 256MB), or NVidia 7800 (much better than MBP).
That’s pretty much it.
It occurs to me that the M1710 with 4GB RAM running Photoshop natively in Windows would sure humiliate a MacBook Pro with 2GB running Photoshop through Rosetta. Not that anyone uses Macs for doing graphic design work or anything like that.
Well, I just need Dell spec’s… (no cam, no FW 800…)
with Apple design at low Dell price’s!
I see where he got the “a couple of decent Dells for that price” from. It’s kind of disturbing.
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=E1705S2&s=dhs
Bump up the specs to 1.83Ghz, 1GB RAM, 80GB drive, dual-layer DVD burner. It’s about $1300.
Sure it is slightly slower, has slightly less storage, and has integrated graphics just like the Mac mini – so it is not suitable for gaming. Doesn’t that qualitfy as a “decent Dell”, if any Dell does?
Two E1705 laptops configured as I described would indeed cost a bit less than one MacBook Pro 17″. They would not be on par with the MacBook Pro, but they would certainly be “a couple of decent Dells.” He never claimed that you could get a couple of Dells that are just as good, just “a couple of decent Dells.”
MDN-
Why don’t you re-calculate with Linux (the world’s most cost-effective OS)?
I’m not going to bother writing this troll writer.
However if someone wants to point out this comparison chart to Mr. Clueless, they can do so.
http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/laptop/2006/0424_lt2800.html
It used to be Mac’s were significantly better than a similar equipted PC, but with the recent Intel switch and Mac OS X exploits it’s not been the case.
Right now the only real difference is the choice of operating system preference. Which one gives you a bit more free programs than the other.
It’s really sad the comparison chart now says “Mac OS X, exploits fixed more often/faster” than no exploits at all like it used to.
In fact that’s not really true, Mac OS X has exploits that have not been fixed for months now. Apple can’t fix the metadata exploit because it will require altering the operating system and Microsoft can’t fix certain exploits because it too would require altering the operating system.
So it’s really looking bad for Mac OS X lately, I just hope Steve is addressing the issue because a few holes is fine, but now it’s a flood.
Here is the most interesting comparisson yet:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=E1705S2&s=dhs
Bring the specs up to 2.16Ghz, 2GB 667Mhz RAM, 120GB 5400 rpm HD, NVidia 7800 256MB graphics, 1900*1200 display, 802.11g/a, bluetooth, upgraded battery, dual-layer DVD burner and Soundblaster Audigy.
That’s a higher-resolution display, twice the memory, and a much faster video card than the $2799 MacBook Pro 17″ comes with.
$2547.
Now it’s becoming more clear – go with Dell and you can get something decent for half the price, something a bit better for a little bit less money, and something much better for a lot more money (4GB memory capacity, twice as good graphics, pretty colored lights, $4000). You’re still getting a big ugly plastic brick that can’t do Mac OS X, but there it is.
Oh I like to add that with the Dell option there is a choice what to upgrade the laptop with verses the MacBook Pro which there is no choice.
If you don’t want a remote control for the media center on the Dell you don’t have to buy it for a savings of $23. Of course the list goes on, Bluetooth, wireless etc etc.
This all can add up to a significant savings which can be applied to buying a iPod for instance.
Why pay for what you won’t need?
Of course Windows totally sucks ass, but there is no alternative really.
Apple is moving very slowly into some choice in upgrades now, like getting faster hard drives for the laptops and video cards for iMac’s
Andrew:
I like how that link you provided adds $495 of added-on crappy software to the Dell to make the MacBook Pro look like a better deal. Very Cute.
As someone above implied you can configure a Ford (indeed any ‘cheap’ make) to a BMW (or Merc for that matter) and probably still get it cheaper (if arguably because like Dell configurations often you don’t). But somehow it just isn’t the same and the experience is far less satisfying (at least 90% of the time/cases) and of course that lies in the areas that one simply can’t configure into the lesser product. In the BMW this is the driver experience and build quality amongst other things. In the Mac its the superior user experience, the iLife suite, the size, weight and looks, the ease of use, the care over the little things… well do I need to go on? Certainly you can argue over the importance of these for years but personally I love to have a sense of well being when using technology and you simply can’t put a price on that, although anyone who has experienced the thing will find that Dell will attempt their own version by putting the fear of God in you and price you up to and beyond the equivalent Mac before you realise it. And you know i bet when asked those buyerss will still parrot off the price on the site before they were manipulated to extend their credit.
It would be intresting to see the price of the comparable computers that people actually pay Dell as opposed to that price (often theoretically) offerred by Dell on its site. Also of course the price after a year or two’s use would be another interesting comparison.
Anyways, all that said, I wouldn’t trade my 1.83Ghz Core Duo 1GB $1750 MacBook Pro 15″ for any Dell. Heck, I’ll probably part out my Windows PC on eBay; the MacBook Pro is faster (even at running Windows XP) and quieter. Silly little 2.6Ghz Athlon64 single-sore computer. =)
Hi Nick, the Dell you provided ends up at $2671 when I added a remote control and XP “Professional”. That’s more expensive than the basic Macbook Pro 17″ .
I meant the first link you posted about the E1705. The second is indeed cheaper, like 400$.
I am happy to cram out the additional dough for the absence of incoming worms and viruses through my ugly squeeking windows.
Come on Nick you are now losing credibility here. Of course you can get a couple of less well equiped Dells for about the same price. You can also get a couple of less well equiped mac laptops for the price too. If you keep taking off what you think are inconsequential ingredients here you simply end up with a pen and paper as the comparison, and my word look how much cheaper and lighter that is. Did he make that point however no. Was he implying that you can get perfectly good ‘equivalent’ Dells, well of course yes he was, this is simply the second hand car salesman technique. The very same argument goes for buying the more expensive Dell laptops too, the extra just doesn’t make it worthwhile if you want to put subjective values on things but did he make that point? Again no. Please don’t try to suggest that this guy is being objective or judging the computers by the same standards because he isn’t, and you are progressively in your posts trying to hide that fact. Your own objectivity is, despite some worthwhile early points seen to be increasingly merely smoke and mirrors too.
Just In
American Army drops Mac support.
GameSpy is too blame of course.
I’m just shocked.
http://forum.americasarmy.com/viewtopic.php?t=213321
The only truth to free market economies:
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!
Now that said, don;t forget to tck on Applecare.
Hey Nick… go find yourself a girlfriend….
sheesh…
who needs magsafe and buit in camera? more like a gimik and out of the average people no one even usues firewire 400 not alone 800. About UI?? who really cares how does the operating system looks like? as far as the programs work on it, you’re not going to make a leaving out of stearing at the preaty os (omg look at that preaty picture ooooo!!)
I dont have a clue where did that price for dell come’s from? even top of the line XPS lap top doesnt cost as much and you get as good of the features.
MDN Magic Word: (sssshhhh… quiet) “job”, as in Nick, GO GET ONE! So you can also buy your Dell…; then your time will be occupied with keeping it running.
Andrew is ranting about “exploits” again (yes, I’ve read all the articles about them) and Nick seems a bit… desperate. How many comments has he had now? 7? 8? 9?
Please do get a life. And also, while you’re at it, get that Dell you keep saying is so “pretty” and has “kickass graphics” because it seems to be the thing you love to evangelize the most.
And Andrew, I’ve counted and there have only been, like, 15 exploits found. Every operating system has exploits, nobody’s doubting that, but the problem is, nobody ever takes advantage of them. They don’t really matter at all.
Although I really wish they would stop posting them all over the world fror all eyes to see because although surprisingly nobody has done anything to exploit the.. exploits, it’s sort of an invitation to do so.
Oh, and by the way, Mac OS NEVER had zero exploits.
It occurs to me that the M1710 with 4GB RAM running Photoshop natively in Windows would sure humiliate a MacBook Pro with 2GB running Photoshop through Rosetta. Not that anyone uses Macs for doing graphic design work or anything like that.
So what’s the point then that it “humiliates” MBP?!?
See, this is the problem with those pc folks, it doesn’t matter if their shity boxes run circles around a Mac, because a mac user will only use a machine that can run OS X…
I couldn’t care less for the Dells and HPs of the world.
nick are you a lawyer?
because i find your pedantic nerdgasms pretty annoying…
there’s no such thing as a direct comparison between
apples and oranges anyways so i think
ballpark figures are more than adequate–
you don’t need to bring out your calculator…
you don’t have to measure or weigh them…
you don’t have to repost every revision…
article made an ignorant statement that
MDN pointed out to be assinine…
your first post made your point (the first time)
but i don’t think MDN’s point was diminished at all
by your squabbling… and nitpicking…
if you really own a macbook just be glad you
got a good deal…
Fantastic editorial. I’ll definitely share this article with friends.
Nick, you’re comments where some of the few impartial comments through out this long list of comments. You should know that this is a Mac propaganda site. Everything is slanted here and if you try and talk reason you get blasted by everyone.
If the MBP is so superior then why doesn’t it support 4gb of ram? Come on! The MBP is suppose to be cutting edge performance but it’s underclocked (because it’s cute design can’t handle the heat) and it only supports 2gb of ram.
Bottom line is that the MBP and the Dell both have their advantages and disadvantages. In the end though I choose based on the OS and that’s why I chose the MBP. I would have no problem using the Dell if it ran OS X.
Here’s a shoot out, between the “$2,800 17″ MacBook Pro vs. $2,800 17” Dell Inspirion E1710
http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/laptop/2006/0424_lt2800.html
Whilst I don’t think the MDN example is a prefect comparison, I think it’s clear that Mac’s are comparable in price to Windows PC’s when you configure them as close as possible on the major points. Even if a MacBook Pro was to end up being a few hundred more it would still be better value because of all the extra stuff; size, design, weight, iSight, backlit keyboard and so on and so forth, not to mention the arguably higher value of the software.
Bottom line is that a MacBook Pro is a high end machine and it costs a fair chunk of change. A comparable machine from some other manufacturer is going to be similar, maybe more, maybe less, but as a percentage of the total price it’s going to be close. Any difference has to be judged on how much you value the extras.
To say that a Mac is twice as expensive is just misleading and stupid. I mean you can buy 2 Dell machines for the same price of a more expensive, higher specced Dell machine. Does that make the more expensive Dell worse?
Nice poem, crayon1… Or are those lyrics?
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”raspberry” style=”border:0;” />
There has been no restraint in the subjectivity and bias of Dell versus Apple laptop performance and economic comparisons, and the added bonus of “I’m geekier than thou.” attitudes. No doubt, if I want a thorough, thoughtful, and objective comparative analysis I would best look elsewhere.
Windows does not use memory above 2GB at all efficiently and for a laptop application 2GB should be more than enough for anybody.
I will be editing HD on my MBP, running Shake and Motion to the max. I know 2 GB is fine for mobile work. When the Intel Towers arrive I’ll fill one of them with at least 4 GB and let the vastly superior OSX make full use of it!!!!
Putting >2 GB in a PC at the moment is little more than pointless. The 3 GB switch is not always acknowledged by all applications so you’ll have memory kicking round in your PC that ain’t being used. You might have bragging rights, well, until someone informs you of the above.
I shall be placing my order for a 17″ MBP tonight and hence forth I shall be known as Switched….
If you’re allowed to use coupons on the Dell price comparisons, can we use educational discount on the MBPs? they don’t check, after all…
I priced the Dull I’d buy (theorectically) at roughly $2,800, which includes the equivalent of AppleCare. On price alone, that’s an additional $349 in Dull’s favor.
I’d buy the Apple, but like everyone here, I’m not everyone, and I don’t shop on price alone. I liked the BMW and Ford analogy, but most people do shop price, all the time. Apple is kidding themselves if they think they’ll make any inroads into the Doze market with $3,600 notebooks vs.$2800 books from a marketing machine like Dull.
Windows does not use memory above 2GB at all efficiently and for a laptop application 2GB should be more than enough for anybody.
I’m gonna share a real funniy piece of pcism sukcness:
I had an AMD box to run a banking app only available for Windows.
With 256 Ram, Windows 98 would run ok, but when I upgraded memory to 512 Mb, it ran slower!!! And no, this is not a case of ram speed or parity or whatever, because I changed the chip, I took the 256 out and put a 512 in.
Go figure…
What is the going rate for a Windows wipe and reinstall due to unrecoverable spyware/malware infestations these days, anyway?
Since no one else has answered this question, I’ll bring it up. My company (A small local ISP) does computer wipes and reinstalls for $80 total. That’s 2 hours of labor. If the customer has data backup concerns, there could be an additional $20 tagged on for Data Backup and Restore. We have had some customers come in as many as 5 times to have their systems wiped and reinstalled, shelling out around $400+ over the last couple of years. We charge between $60-$80 for Spyware/Adware/Virus scanning & removal and downloading of all Windows updates. Some people are willing to continue to pay for this over and over again, even though I suggest to them, through their rants of frustration as they fork over 3 or 4 crisp $20 bills, that they could save money and hassle by going Mac. I’ve had maybe 3 people actually listen and switch because of what they’ve had to go through (and pay) with their old PCs. Yet, the majority of them are still willing to pay through the nose to bring in their crappy Dells, Gateways, HPs, Compaqs and Generic PCs to have us once again, clean or reinstall their software.
Go figure.
RELEASE THE HOUNDS!
Dakroland: My point exactly. Boot Camp, is not going to change the average buyer’s mind. We Apple boosters are using too much passion and not enough reason. All the spyware/malware/BSD problems in the world do not make up for the fact that Dulls etc. are several hundreds of dollars cheaper in the most common configurations than Apple. All the included apps like iLife are not going to change the simple fact: people shop price.
You’re correct that MOST average users are not going to be swayed– for them computing is an afterthought. I am seeing new interest in nMacs, though– once the new Macbooks come out, I am helping new buyers buy. One in particular cites his Dell needing five major repairs in less than a year and my enthusiasm for my computer as the reason for his switch.
Even my staunch, Windows-only brother has recently stated that the only reason he hasn’t gotten a Mac is because his wife would become a computer widow while he played with it. True or not, it’s the first non-bashing words from him. People ARE paying attention to Apple’s computers again. Mac share will increase, no doubt.
-Nick-
“Kick-ass gaming machine…???” Oh come on, give me a break. That has very little to do with hardware (for similarly configured machines) and everything to do with game developers utilizing the power that the hardware and OS are ready to provide. The way I see it I am in fact getting a gaming quality machine, but made to do work. I recently priced some Alienware hardware out of a gaming magazine and compared it to the latest Macs, Alienware clearly more expensive for essentially the same hardware on the Mac side. Will the Alienware stuff run games faster, yes; why? Because that developers write software tweaked for that hardware and OS.
Two wrongs don’t make a right
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”confused” style=”border:0;” />
All the included apps like iLife are not going to change the simple fact: people shop price.
That is why when people call me up on my tech line and ask me honestly which computer I recommend, I always tell them I own 3 Macs, and they should consider one too. They are shocked when I say that, considering my work is basically all about dealing with Windows internet connection issues. Everything they throw at me as an excuse not to buy a Mac is now so easy to shoot down. But you are mostly right. Some, not all, people shop solely based on price alone. You will never sway them because they cannot wrap their brains around a higher price being less expensive in the long run than a cheap Dell. I try to get them to factor in expected extra costs for software restores, spyware/malware scans, downtime, etc. but it hardly ever seems to register to them. However, there are many people I’ve spoken with over the years who DO listen, and they are proud owners of Macs to this day. They used to call me at least once a week with problems with their internet connections, but now I never hear from them. I have called them and asked how things are, and they are happier than they ever were.
People do listen, eventually. Whether they do it before they make a mistake or after is another thing altogether. In the long run, we have to be wise, not just zealous about our Macs. Know when to not push the issue, and just put the bug in peoples ears. If they want to listen, look for the signs and then help them. I don’t consider myself a Mac Fanatic, but rather a Mac Advocate. I won’t blast people for articles like the one above, but I will correct misinformation when I see it. Whether it’s negative OR positive for the Mac or PC. The problem is there is so much of it out there, that people don’t know what to believe anymore.
wow- “I can actually agree with MDN’s take because it contains logic instead of propaganda — a rare occurrence for MDN! :~)”
The regular MDN guys must have been out of the palatial MDN office lounging around the corporate MDN swimming pool and one of their maids wrote the comment.
Even if the correct price for the dell is $1620, that is still a lot of money for a bathroom scale.
Who cares?
People buy for different reasons. These comparisons on price/performace don’t really matter or people would all buy the same product. People buy for different reasons. Cost is only one of many. Why do you think that there is Ford (Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin) GM (Chevy, Buick, GM, Pontiac, SAAB ), Mercedes (Chrysler, Mercedes, Dodge), Volkswagen (VW, Audi), Toyota (Toyota, Lexus), BMW (BMW, Rolls-Royce) etc. etc.
Dell does a great job of allowing individuals to pick the exact specification that they want in a computer. Apple limits your choice. Big deal. We will each buy what WE think is good value. Nothing else.
Besides, I would hate it if everyone used a Mac. It’s good to be different.
Excpet mac isnt different any more, a pc in a preaty box and mac os x
I gave used “PC’s” for over 20 years.
I have been through Compaqs, Gateways, I have built my own, this message is being generated on a linux Box made by Monarch, I have a Toshiba 17″ lap top next to this box….well I hope I am conveying that I do know about different quality “PC’s”.
The Alienware Corporate Hq is down the street from my house here in Miami. Dell just bought them because Dell does not make any true high end machines anymore.
SO my point is: When the guy that wrote the original refers to a decent Dell, I am confused. I was not aware that Dell made PC’s of the same qualitiy as Apple. In fact they just bought Alienware so they could get into that market. The Alienware machines (The only Dell owned subsidiary that cranks out laptops that are comparable to Apples) prices their laptops in the same range as Apple.
The computer lab down the hall from me is loaded to the max with new Dell’s. Not a one has the workmanship or fit-and-finish of my 4 y.o quick silver. The Dells have chips with clock rates 2-3 times faster than my G4. Yet my G4 performs better because it is not bogged down with 20 anti-virus suites and 400 needless Novell applets needed to make Windoze network friendly and hacker safe. Yes and my G4 has connected to the net 24/7 for 3 years. The only exception being hurricane induced net outtages.
Let’s compare like with like here.
it’s so annoying when fsckwits compare notebooks saying one laptop is “1.0 inch thin” while the other is “1.67 inch thick.”
They both have thinness or thickness. If you must, say the MBP is .67 inch thinner.
There’s a lot more than 15 exploits for Mac OS x over this time and really it only take one.
When I read articles, dare I say fantasy’s, like his it makes me think that anyone can do it. The article, although spelling and grammar were great, is just trash. Did he actually research the facts and figures or did the Dell fairy deliver them to you? A very legitimate question…..
He needs to have someone read to him the MDN comments and maybe somewhere in his “how to be a journalist” handbook there is a paragraph, page, or even a chapter on “boy did I really embarrass myself this time….”
Like Moka’s Uncle, I’m deeply confused by seeing the words “Dell” and “decent” in the same sentence. Actually, I’ll go further and say I’m not even sure that the two words should even be in the same paragraph.
Here’s the thing: just got back from a client who – before we got involved with them – purchased an Intel iMac. They also have some POS Packard Bell running Windows XP Home.
Packard Bell is buggered even after running SpyBot and AdAware because the so-called operating system has become infected with a rootkit exploit, and I can either spend a few hours trying to figure out how to get rid of it or I can – following the recommendation of an MSFT VP – “nuke it from orbit”.
Following that little exercise, we tried to get both the Macintosh and PB to use the Netgear wireless router/modem as WPA-PSK clients at a moderate level of security. Surprisingly (not!), the Macintosh did it unquestioningly whilst the Windows XP box running a Belkin USB dongle thing decided it would have nothing to do with WPA-PSK. Curiously, the symptoms were the same as for a Core Duo Samsung that I delivered to a customer the other day – three-year old PowerBook configured in 20 seconds using WPA-PSK, 5-day old Samsung forced to use WEP.
My customer (or, more accurately, my customer’s wife) was given a 10-minute briefing on why, despite the fact that I make no money selling Macintoshes, she should switch her entire home and she’ll probably convince her husband to pay for it.
I’m not certain what the inverse is for “the whole is greater than the sum of the parts”, but whatever it is Dell + Windows must qualify for the part, as would anything + Windows.
Via Digg:
New $2,800 17″ MacBook Pro vs. $2,800 Dell Inspirion E1710
http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/laptop/2006/0424_lt2800.html
Seems like a fair comparison. This seems a LOT more fair than MDN or Mr. Derk.
I’m a Mac fan, but MDN loses credibility with all the Mac zealot propaganda they write.
WHAT IS ALL THE FUSS ALL ABOUT? EVERYONE, PLEASE DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GO TO DELL.COM AND HONESTLY CONFIGURE AN APPROPRIATE XPS LAPTOP THAT IS COMPARABLE TO A 17″ MBP!
RESULTS?
17″ MBP: $2799!
17″ XPS: $3148 … minus $200 for the superior 1900 resolution lcd? … totalling now $2948!
Please comment if I left something out.
Oh, and did anyone notice that the Dell left out the following: Keyboard backlit, superior Apple design, iSight camera, Magsafe, advance Mac OS X, and iLife 06?
************************************************************************
XPS M1710:
Intel® Core™ Duo Processor T2600 (2MB Cache/2.16GHz/667MHz FSB)
Operating System (Office software not included):
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
Remote Control for Windows XP Media Center Edition
LCD Panel:
17 inch UltraSharp™ Wide Screen UXGA Display with TrueLife™
Memory:
1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHZ, 2 DIMM
Hard Drive:
100GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive 100GB72
Combo/DVD+RW Drives:
Featured Upgd-8XCD/DVD Burner(DVD+/-RW)w/dble-layer DVD+R write capability
Wireless Networking Cards:
Intel PRO/Wireless 3945 802.11a/g Mini Card (54Mbps)
Video Card:
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 7900 GS
Primary Battery:
80 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Sound Card:
Integrated Sound Blaster® Audigy® ADVANCED HD Audio
Network Card and Modem:
Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
Wireless Personal Networking Card:
Dell Wireless 350 Bluetooth Internal (2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate)
The writer’s mentality is that you can get 2 hondas for the price of a mercedes. Therefore, Mercedes should really lower their prices to kill off Honda!
As the MDN example clearly shows, the 17″ MacBook pro competes quite well with a similarly appointed Dell. The writer misses that this laptop is aimed at the high end. When the intel version of the iBook comes out, he might still be able to say you can get two Dells for the price, but again, you’d have to go 3 levels down.
Dell e1705 vs. MBP 17″
Strictly speaking as a hardware to hardware comparison.
Both have:
2.16GHz Intel Core Duo Processor
Same 2.0 MB L2 cache
Same Ram and 667 FSB
Same HD
Give an edge to Dell with the Nvidia Video Card
Macbook Pro is $2799
Dell e1705 after a $750 off $1999 coupon comes out roughly to 1415
Even if you take off $200 with Apple’s education price you still pay $1184 more.
We know OSX blows Winblows away but.. can someone explain strictly on a hardware to hardware comparison how the MBP is more powerful?
What do you use your computer for that Dell’s specs can’t do?
It’s basically the same.
I have only Mac’s in my house, but since the pricing of the Mac Mini, I’m getting annoyed at Apple’s pricing.
Microsoft (can’t stand them!!!) became the richest company in the world through software. Apple has the best OS on the planet and still all you hear is “Apple makes their money on hardware).
Apple, release OSX to the world and Microsoft’s market share will take a staggering dive.
It’s proof, if you release trash at the right price, people with buy it.
I just think Apple’s prices don’t justify their hardware.
One quickie, for a hardware company they seem to have constant problems with their hardware. From their Ibook problems, to the G5 imac and now some heat issues with the MBP.
Lower prices, and get more of the world onboard.
Apple has the chance to be what Microsoft (they still suck) is, and they are not taking advantage of it.
Again, the best software and mostly hardware around and Apple is blowing it again with their prices.
If they would’ve licensed their roms back in 1984 and had Mac clones from the beginning they would’ve owned the industry instead on having an under 5% share.
APPLE WAKE UP, YOU’RE REPEATING HISTORY!!!
This is just stupid.
jderka derka made an asinine comparison and has succeeded in getting the peanut gallery all riled up. Lets face it, he was trying to insinuate that Macs are way overpriced.
Two unspecified Dells for the price of the MBP 17?
Give it a break. Since we seem to like the car analogy… I can also buy two unspecified Fords for the price of a Chevy Corvette. It don’t mean jack$hit.
The MBP17 when compared with its reasonably close rival Dell is priced similarly.
Shame on you Mr Derka Derka
The initial price you pay for an object is not the whole truth, guys. Stop whining about it. Compare the Total Cost of Ownership over say five years, and then you can really compare two items. It is a sad fact, that a Windows box will cost you — in antivirus software, in antivirus subscriptions, in maintenance time, in configuration time, much more than a similarly-equipped Mac box. I am an ex-Windows user and dealing with all of the hassle of Windows was one reason that I switched long ago. My time is worth something. Is yours?
One other point about the Dell versus the MacBook Pro, Apple’s laptop has built-in gigabit ethernet. The Dell laptop doesn’t (at least in the comparisons).
From now on, anyone, online writers, people who post to MDN, anyone who posts an article this stupid will be called a …..DERK.
Has it occured to anyone that the Dell looks like it got its inspiration from a Wolff tanning bed…
…so why are people under the impression that the M1710 is the closest thing to a MacBook Pro? The E1705 is a much better match. The M1710 has 4GB RAM capacity and a graphics card designed for uber-geek game players. It’s a much more capable computer than the MacBook Pro is.
Configure an E1705 to have slightly better specs than the MacBook Pro (2GB RAM, much better video card, 1900*1200 resolution), and you’ll be charged $2547:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=E1705S2&s=dhs
Now instead of comparing a far stronger computer to the MacBook Pro, you’re just comparing a somewhat stronger computer to the MacBook Pro.
MDN – you guys don’t need to lie and cheat to defend the MacBook Pro. Come on.
MacDailyNews, you guys are usually pretty good, but you’re WAAAY off base here. The thing most Mac buyers don’t seem to understand about Dell is that you can make a deal there. You can find different configurations, go in through company vs. personal sites, check different days, and even buy coupons off eBay.
It would actually be fairly reasonable to expect to buy 2 similarly equipped Dells for the price of one 17″ MacBook Pro if you’re willing to put in a little effort. You’re still left with a crappy Dell, but price is definitely VASTLY in Dell’s favor.
Can someone comment on my post @ 11:27am?
When we were talking PPC vs. Intel, you could make an argument,
but now we are comparing Intel and Intel.
And if you look, at an e1705 vs. MBP 17, it’s basically the same components.
Obviously, a Core Duo 2.16 from Intel is the same whether it’s in a Dell or a Mac, correct?
It’s the same basic chips.
Is is too far a stretch to say that the motherboards are the same or at least closely related?
So, you are paying close to $1200 (base on my previous post) for what, a built-in iSight and magsafe?
You are paying over $1200 for OSX and a little Apple logo!
Can anyone justify that?
I guess you all forgot the warm welcome you gave the guy when he switched:
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/6659/
He said this time it was “cool, lovely and fast” but you all skipped that part?
At $1,999 it would be a killer.
Random: Why can’t natural selection apply to stupid people?
Why can’t natural selection apply to computers? Apple would be on tip top, no?
No, the MDN take isn’t biased in the least bit.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”raspberry” style=”border:0;” /> I configured an HP with identical specs and it was only $1954 (the dv8000t series). I could not imagine Dell’s price being twice HP’s price. I also see that several other posts have an identical Dell for less than the cost of the Mac. I call BS on your $4000 price tag. You also forgot to add the price of Windows on top of the Mac, if you’re really looking to try and convert any of us. This site is such crap.
Of course one can buy a couple of decent Apple laptops for $2800, too. They’re called iBooks…
And fooling around with e1705 config, well, it a few hundred dollars less expensive for comparable specs. A few hundred bucks is a few hundred bucks.
Now, if your e1705 dies much before your new MacBook, then obviously the Dell becomes more expensive.
You forgot the most important point, you can’t load OSX onto a PC.
IMHO, Mac laptops cost more. Probably not fair to say they cost $1000+ more. But hundreds more.
If you want OS X (supported), you buy a Mac. At least Apple puts serious work into the design. And they are among _the_most_reliable_ machines made.
Plus, Mac users get seriously cool OS and software. And now the option of running MS Windows at full speed.
You should probably make up your own mind. If you think you’ll be happier with a cheaper Windows machine, do you really need **Mac**Daily News to validate your purchase? They’ll say you’re nuts. Oh well. Buy your clone. You’ll be happier.
If you want a Mac laptop, you have a roughly a half dozen choices: consumer laptop configs, (will we get 12 incher MBPs?), MBP 15 configs, and MBP 17″ configs. If you’re a real hacker, you’ll get a clone and hack OS X onto it.
Bot
http://www.cyberdads.com/blog.html
James Derek is a part of CyberDads. He owns both PCs and Macs.
http://cyberdads.com/
Interesting there are no comments on the cyberdad blog about this….
Maybe he has a life and doesn’t care that much about OPERATING SYSTEMS?
Oh, and from the guy’s blog on “Rules for Safe Computing”
5. Buy a Mac. None of the above applies to the Apple platform.
—
Nice hack job, MDN
Best… article… ever…
He said decent Dells, not comparable. Can’t any of you people read?
“Category killer” is a positive thing in case ya’ll flunked marketing.
Oh no you dih-ant!
MDN is da bomb!
Does the Dell have optical digital audio in and out?
Just a side note about coupons …
Companies provide coupons … most consumers never send them in (at least, that’s what they teach you in most business classes). So it’s a sort of scam. It creates the illusion that you’re getting a deal … when it’s likely that the rebate price is what they’d normally charge anyway … and are making a good profit on. In other words, it’s not a steal.
Rebates and coupons skew alot of things … consumer perception, revenue, and, I’m sure, how these sales are reported when accounting figures are released. I don’t know all the implications, and don’t have the time to research. If anyone has any real professional experience with the way these thing impact a business model, please enlighten us.
After all … why bother with a coupon? Shouldn’t they just sell it at the adjusted price? There’s something shady here.
And now the blog at cyberdads is completely devoid of the MacBook Pro 2-second review…
Seems MDN made a new friend!
“with the Dell, we get a screen with a bit higher res (Windows’ inferior UI needs the extra room)”
what the?? He almost makes it sound like a higher resolution screen would be a bad thing,,
that biased crap makes the review loose all credibility
coupons = paper spyware
The blog at CyberDads is still there? What you talking about, Willis?
And, he said “decent”.
And, even if he didn’t, he was right.
http://laptopmag.com/CES2006/WrapUp/Fujitsu-LifeBook-N6410.htm
>>Random: Why can’t natural selection apply to stupid people?
>>Why can’t natural selection apply to computers? Apple would be on tip top, no?
It does, free markets are very good at this. What you see today with the OS X vs Windows market shares is the result of millions of consumers making judgments on what works for them as a blend of price, performance, features, prettiness, familiarity etc (Natural selection, product a competes against product B on all those attributes and the winner ends up int he shopping cart).
For the point of argument if we take as true for an instant the idea that 100% of PC customers worldwide regard Macs to be superior and would rather have a Mac running OS X than a PC running Windows. (So don’t point out why they would want a mac, we’re taking that as a given)
Well apparently if that were true then on the way to the checkout counter something happens to a horrifying 96%+ of them which makes them choose another product.
So the above assumption is not very plausable. A more plausible explanation is that the vast majority of people out there think instead that a Windows PC is the right PC for them.
you should be pissed that it’s taken this long for you to be able to run your favorite operating system on current hardware. Intel, ATI, SATA, USB, this is all PC technology that has nothing to do with Mac. Your just caught up in the spin and the cool factor. wake up. I’ll get one because it’s cool. If it lives up to Toshiba’s great products, then cool. oh, and BTW, love that the bigest ad on your site is from Microsoft! Your just silly!
Nick, based on your links, I customized an equivalent Dell and came up with $2855 from the first link and $2389 from the second link. Both are within the range of the 17″ MBP.
Annoyed with Apple Pricing, dude, where did you see the Inspirion for that price? Show us a link. Your price seems to be for an entry-level E1705, NOT with a 2.16 Core Duo and 1 gig of RAM. The 2.16 is a $300 premium over the 2 ghz, $500 premium over the 1.83 ghz, $600 premium over the 1.66 ghz.
You Dell apologists get your facts straight. Compare items as close as possible. MDN does a disservice as well by using a different class of machine with inflated video card specs to make a comparison.
In the final analysis, the Derk guy is still way off base, if anything, the pricing between Dells (on sale) and Macs are COMPARABLE.
Enough already of the Mac and OSx is the answer to everyones prayers, as its clearly not. A user who runs both side by side as I do, that is the new Mac 17″ and a fully specced E1710 (which came to $6200 AUD) will soon find out just about everything he said here is nonsense.
nicw
What an ass does he not know about virtiual pc ? Also a product of microsoft #2 dual booting
No, Amberhawke, you just can’t read what he wrote. He wrote “decent” not comparable. He was saying the MBP was too pricey, which it is.
Then the MDN overreacted as usual.