Ultimately Apple’s iPod is doomed to fail because it “only allows a very, very slim amount of participation by the outside world,” according to Dave Winer. Winer, described by PBS weekly online TV show NerdTV’s website, as the “Father of RSS and Web Logging,” talked about Apple’s iPod with the PBS’s Robert X. Cringeley in a portion of a rambling interview:
Be inclusive… Where it’s exclusive, you’re hurt – it’s not gonna work. That’s the Internet. And you might argue, actually, that that has always, even when we didn’t call what we were doing the Internet, that really was what we were doing. That was why the Apple II worked. That was why the Lisa did not work. That’s why the Mac worked, you know. That’s why ultimately the iPod is doomed. Because the iPod only allows a very, very slim amount of participation by the outside world. And, I guess it’s a temporary thing. The music industry needed that kind of – sort of control over it in order for them to let that thing do what it was doing. But, long-term, it doesn’t have a future in that way.
And I think part of it is the paranoia of the music industry, and part of it is that Steve Jobs really doesn’t like open platforms. And, ultimately, you know, he’s quite happy that – but something like the Archos that runs Linux, and it’s completely wide open. Supports – has Wi-Fi. It has every port known to man on it. That it’s not a – I mean nobody’s heard of it. Doesn’t matter. That’s the kind of product we’re gonna end up using, because it’s just – ’cause somebody’s gonna come up with killer app for all those – you know, whatever, anyway I’m rambling.
One of the things that’s like totally depressing about the iPod is all the car manufacturers that are building in iPod compatible ports there. That’s crazy, you know? USB, please, you know? I mean don’t do that. That’s so bad. – Dave Winer, October 11, 2005.
Winer also comments on Apple and CEO Steve Jobs:
Apple actually does work, okay? It’s the exception to the rule. It is the you sit at his feet and you receive the word of God. Okay. I personally can’t stomach that. I cannot sit in a goddamn room with Steve Jobs doing that. I wanna puke, you know?
It grosses me out, but there are a lot of people who like it, and his art is impeccable. I mean I did finally break down and buy a Mac, and I got it, and I like it. Hey, it’s a nice computer. It feels good. It’s – I like my Sony VAIO, too, but the Mac’s a good computer. He breaks the rule, and he gets away with it. But nobody else does.
There really shouldn’t even be one. Well, you see, his fatal flaw is the iPod, right? And the iPod’s wonderful. It’s breaking the market in every – it’s breaking it wide open. But it’s breaking it wide open for somebody else, because he’s playing the damn game the same way he always does. He can’t get spread out far enough to actually be the guy who continues to run it later. He’s doing it again.
He probably knows he’s doing it, okay. And he’s certainly cleaning up. And we’ll pay attention to whatever he comes out with next. That’s for sure. And it probably will be great, so, you know, but that’s his fatal flaw. But it’s probably one that he factors in. Jobs factors in, probably.
Full transcript here.
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Why is it totally depressing that all the car makers are building in iPod compatible ports, Dave? Because it shoots your argument that “iPod is exclusive” all to hell? Archos? Is that a joke? If not, give us a break. It’s an iPod world, Dave. Get used to it.
You have to expect this type of “expert” to be all about ultimate “openness.” Too bad it’s at the expense of common sense here. Winer is flat wrong about the iPod. The iPod+iTunes is the only cross-platform (Mac and Windows) solution, for one example of inclusiveness. It’s the Windows-only Napster, Yahoo, MSN-type outfits that practice exclusion.
Probable reason for Winer’s comments? Apple blasted by RSS community leaders for ‘proprietary’ iTunes Podcast implementation – July 05, 2005
Related articles:
Apple’s vs. Microsoft’s music DRM: whose solution supports more users? – August 17, 2005
Apple’s roadkill whine in unison: ‘incompatibility is slowing growth of digital music’ – August 13, 2005
Apple’s new iMac G5, iTunes 6, iPod video designed to bait Hollywood – October 13, 2005
Apple video iPod+iTunes could create mass audience for video on the go, despite studios’ misgivings – October 13, 2005
Watching episode of ABC’s ‘Lost’ on 2.5-inch iPod screen surprisingly compelling – October 13, 2005
Analyst: Apple has just produced ‘the tipping point’ for entertainment content – October 13, 2005
Fortune: With video iPod, iTunes 6, iMac G5 and Front Row, Apple ready for ‘a good holiday season’ – October 13, 2005
Analyst: Unlike Microsoft, Apple has the advantage by not licensing their technology – October 13, 2005
BusinessWeek: Microsoft fumbles while Apple turns the needlessly complex into the beautifully simple – October 13, 2005
Video report: Apple CEO Steve Jobs discusses new iPod, iMac and earnings report – October 13, 2005
NBC TV shows up next for Apple’s iTunes? – October 13, 2005
Analyst: Real and Microsoft deal ‘doesn’t change the dynamics for Apple in any way, shape or form’ – October 12, 2005
Apple’s video play likely to unsettle movie, TV, advertising and retail markets for years to come – October 12, 2005
Analyst: ‘media companies will call Apple to strike deals, Front Row is Media Center done right’ – October 12, 2005
Analyst: Apple rewriting media distribution rules, more people will consider switching to Mac now – October 12, 2005
Apple and Disney usher in new media era – October 12, 2005
Apple posts QuickTime of ‘One More Thing’ special media event – October 12, 2005
Apple’s Front Row with Apple Remote and iMac G5: media center done right – October 12, 2005
Apple introduces new thinner iMac G5 with built-in iSight video camera, ‘Front Row’ media experience – October 12, 2005
Apple releases iTunes 6 with 2,000 music videos, Pixar short films & hit TV shows for $1.99 – October 12, 2005
Apple unveils new 5th generation iPod, now plays music, photos, and video – October 12, 2005
Archos may be a good product, but running Linux means the average consumer will have trouble using it. The learning curve is too steep for the mainstream. My dad has trouble with e-mail, but he can use an iPod.
Thanks for the smile MDN. THE top story on the front page of yesterday’s Cincinnati Enquirer was, “Your favorite TV show … on iPod?”.
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051013/BIZ/510130331
It is indeed an iPod world.
podcasting anyone?
vidcasting?
what’s not inclusive?
PBS podcasts NewHour (and other things?)
ABC News too.
Follow the $
What’s his agenda?
Best line: “’cause somebody’s gonna come up with killer app for all those – you know, whatever, anyway I’m rambling.”
Too right you’re rambling…
I don’t doubt for a minute that if it really became necessary Jobs will have Apple do what’s necessary to keep the iPod healthy. Full stop.
Yes, the iPod is ultimately doomed. But then so is everything else.
Eventually, the sun will expand and consume the inner planets, boiling off our oceans, exterminating all life and essentially reducing Earth to a scalded wasteland.
In the meantime, I’m still enjoying my iPod.
Bah, he’s just unhappy because Adam Curry got Podcasts into iTunes
Most folks can live with “closed systems” as long as they can access what they want to and their wallets aren’t screaming …
The “open Linux/Windows” versus “closed Mac” argument just doesn’t fly here … entertainment is about SIZZLE, CONTENT and PRICE. Apple has the first two nailed down, and showed this week what the economies of scale can do by nailing down the last one, too.
Like, what’s like, so, like, totally like, I mean, like depressing is that this guy speaks like a high school nincompoop, with valley girl aspirations.
Could he be more clueless?
Interesting name, Winer.
“Eventually, the sun will expand and consume the inner planets, boiling off our oceans, exterminating all life and essentially reducing Earth to a scalded wasteland.”
The Bush administration is giving the Sun a good head start!
My thoughts EXACTLY Melanie!!! Hilarious.
Winer has GOT to be a guy WITHOUT an iPod. Perhaps we should all chip in and buy him a Nano (and a case to prevent further “wining” from him.
In five years when the ipod is paper thin and stored in your wallet, sending wireless music to your wireless ear plug I’m going to look back on his comments and laugh again.
is that guy on crack?!
he talks like a 14 year old female mall-rat.
“yeh – well – its like – y’know – totally depressing – apple is like – yeh – y’know – such a bitch”
Ugh, can’t people just enjoy the moment without interjecting their politics into everything? I m ean, clearly the sun’s expansion is part of the socialist plot to “include” everyone, right?
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“Let” as in “Let it be already!”
I have to agree with Dave, because, you know, the timing for devices are like bird migrations, that is, they come and go. And the timing for this device, though it may be popular at the moment, will never be purposeful, especially in context of the annual reports and such. Apple would do best to turn their attention to consumer products that have had enjoyed great success in the past, like transistor radios. Microsoft will always come to dominate Apple because they know the right consumer input level which gives them the insight to create products that meet critical mass. And Microsoft’s partners excel at product innovation due to the complex and simple nature of these partnerships. So you see, once you look at it like it really is it becomes clear that Dave is right on.
reading that article makes me think it was written by a preppy school girl…like, you know
And, ultimately, you know, he’s quite happy that – but something like the Archos that runs Linux, and it’s completely wide open. Supports – has Wi-Fi. It has every port known to man on it.
exactly why “archos” won’t work, you think record labels, movie companies, and broadcasters are going to want their material on something “wide open” that with linux will get hacked, and pirating gets fueled again….
doesn’t exclusive mean to only a few select?
last time i checked the iPod has a 75% market share and every company and their brother is making products for the iPod. i wouldn’t call that exclusive, it’s more all inclusive to me
“…Apple would do best to turn their attention to consumer products that have had enjoyed great success in the past, like transistor radios…”
– Chris Moore
the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
thank god you dont work at apple
A Bill Gates line he’ll come to regret when talking about portable video:
“I guess Steve’s kids just listen to Bach and Mozart,” Gates told the magazine. “But mine, they want to watch ‘Finding Nemo.’ I don’t know who made that, but it’s really a neat movie.”
(http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/244567_applefolo14.html)
I really have to say this guy is just unbelievable…
this guy reminds me of my days is college when i’d be at a party and get cornered buy some drunk, half stoned, “genius” who would tell me that poetry was irrelivant or that saw-tooth economic theory was the salvation of humanity. You have to listen to a half an hour of unfinished sentences, incoherent thoughts and unexplaned pretexts and hope you can get clear of him before he throws up.
I don’t want an inclusive music player, whatever the hell that is. I want to listen to my tunes. It’s insular. that’s the point of it. it’s MP3 cell/camera phones that are doomed.
It’s amazing and here is why. I know so many PC people and now this guy too talking about being inclusive. Definition of inclusinve in the PC world is, “i can download it illegally and not pay for what I want”.
The iPod being “exclusive” for PC people leaves them out because they’re belief of “I just download it from Kazza or bit torrent”. I don’t buy games, movies, software, music etc… EVERY PC person I know feel it’s their right to steal.
I have to agree with Dave, because, you know, the timing for devices are like bird migrations, that is, they come and go. And the timing for this device, though it may be popular at the moment, will never be purposeful, especially in context of the annual reports and such. Apple would do best to turn their attention to consumer products that have had enjoyed great success in the past, like transistor radios. Microsoft will always come to dominate Apple because they know the right consumer input level which gives them the insight to create products that meet critical mass. And Microsoft’s partners excel at product innovation due to the complex and simple nature of these partnerships. So you see, once you look at it like it really is it becomes clear that Dave is right on.
clearly you’re joking right? surely you can’t be serious. hopefully i can sit back and laugh at your sarcasm, but if it’s not, you seriously have no clue what you’re talking about….
Sure, we all know that global warming didn’t even begin until 2001. Idiot.
The Archos has Wi-Fi. So what? What do people use that for? Once a real, usable reason for having wi-fi, bluetooth whatever is found and can be done well then apple will most likely include it on the iPod or whatever product is applicable.
I have a few problems with the iPod but in general it “does what it says on the tin” (UK people will get that more), I might wish for this or that but nothing suits 100% of people. Linux and every port known to man may allow you to do everything, but 99.9% of people will end up doing nothing with it. Which is why Archos and other of its ilk don’t have the sales that iPod do.
ultimately the Dave Winer is doomed…
That’s life!
two words immediately come to mind: freaking moron. this clown is supposed to be an opinion-maker; yet, he cannot communicate even the simplest of ideas. not to mention the “fact” that he’s simply wrong. did i mention moron?
Hayley – Take a humor pill. Isn’t it totally obvious that I was poking fun of Dave’s incomprehensible rambling?
In response to the comment about the iPod not being inclusive: If you re-read the Cluetrain Manifesto, he has a point there. However, I think WiFi and communication is next year’s iPod innovation. This year it is video. That may be market driven, but it is what it is. I personally thinkg iPods linked with the internet and with each other would be fantastic and very much a participatory technology born out of the internet. It’s hard to wait for it patiently, but at least we can listen to and watch podcasts and v-casts on the go, which this guy totally misses on.
MDN MW: Still, as in still waiting for WiFi iPods
The iPod supports formats that are open standards … ie. AAC … and now, MPEG4 and H.264 … the competitors support Windows formats which are NOT open … as someone on another forum once said … ‘cry me an iRiver’.
Ultimately VHS was doomed because it didn’t play Beta, 3/4″ and 16mm film then, too.
I mean, ultimately VHS was doomed, because something better came along, after people sold billions of dollars worth of VHS stuff. I’ll be surprised if there are still iPods in the year 2025, because for one thing I think putting an “i” in front of a product name will seem as old-fashioned as calling it “Jet” something or “Astro” something, but Apple will have made billions, and come up themselves with the thing that killed the iPod, in the meantime.
Ultimately we’re all doomed, except maybe Angelina Jolie, who seems to be made of something alien and indestructible.
Dave’s last name is appropriate. . . .what a whiner
Sony has been “EXCLUSIVE” or proprietary for years. I guess they won’t make it either. After all, everyone knows about SD memory….. and what is it that Sony uses in all their products??? something called “memory stick”??
RIP Dave “WHINER”……
wow.. this guy’s a genius.. so well spoken..
what was his point? He hates the fact that SJ gets away with.. um.. being a jerk? Or something?
Wow.. nice little detour on what was, i’m sure, an otherwise interesting interview.
yes, Interview. Cringely was trying to interview the guy and he went on a ‘damn why is Apple still in business’ rant.
You like the Mac as much as your Windows-strapped VAIO.. wow.. Let me save you the suspense.. Steve ain’t gonna put that in his next Keynote..
This guy is an idiot. The iPod isn’t really that closed when you think about it. I mean I’ve been putting songs from EMusic.com on my iPod for over a year. All it really means is that it’s closed to anyone who wants to put an alternative DRM scheme on, which EMusic doesnt do. They are just MP3’s.
So his closed argument doesnt hold water.
And to DEAR MELANIE, im not too happy about our current leader either, but this isn’t a political forum. Keep it off here.
“VERY PC person I know feel it’s their right to steal.”
That’s because the same mindest (read: ignorant) that leads them to believe the PC rules, is the same one that doesn’t allow them to get a decent enough job to actually afford stuff, so they steal it.
Man, are these MS bubble heads running scared or what?
Their only product is iFud!
MW: Call As in: Call it like you see it!!
I don’t think the apple system is closed at all. Even though (as a music label executive i believe) that the music price points need to be raised…. but oh well thats an old argument for another time…
I think Apple should expand their “openness” into a prepay service for both music and movies. I would rather prepay at most 10 bucks a month (on average) to watch a certain number of downloaded/streamed episodes/songs of my favourite stuff. And If i wanted to buy an episode/song which i really liked I could aswell for a fee.
Hollywood like the music industry would prefer a continous flow of money from a customer (via a subscription service or a prepay service) rather than have a customer come in buy 1 episode and run the risk of lossing that customer. Sure one can lose customers anyway but by having a price point that starts at a prepay minimum of 6 bucks for example (which can cover 3 episodes or 6 songs) appears to be a less risky option.
The reason why I say this is becasue well, this methodology is still new, if big businesses can be assured of a somewhat less risky move such as the one I suggested then I believe Apple can fly even higher, with more networks joining in.
If my memory serves me right didn’t apple hire someone who worked for either Yahoo or Napster to establish their subscription services.??? Perhaps I am indicating the obvious..
MW Program: as in get with the program, Apple is introducing new ways to enjoy media.. There are lots of old people running both the music and movie industry.. its going to take alot of time and bickering..
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You people are clueless. Just because the Archos uses Linux for its OS doesn’t mean its hard to use. Thats crazy. Its got an interface just like the iPod does. Do you even know what OS runs the iPod? Didn’t think so. It doesn’t matter. I know someone that has one. Its a pretty nice device. What holds it back? Simple, it doesn’t work with iTMS. If iTunes never came out for Windows, the iPod would never have taken off. But what happens if the RIAA pulls the plug on iTunes? Watch sales to drop fast on iPods.
His argument is that open systems eventually win out. He also credits Apple for being the exception to the rule. A product like the iPod shouldn’t succeed because its closed, but it is succeeding because Apple has continued to be innovative. But now that its got audio, photos, and video what’s left?
The iPod has succeeded because of one thing. iTunes Music Store. Thats the real winner. And for it to stay successful, it needs one thing, DRM. This allowed it to get the RIAA. But the problem I have with DRM is that its a vendor lock-in. Its not about protecting the content. Its about preventing you from shopping elsewhere. The only alternative is DRM-free but until there is a website with big name artists who support DRM-free music, iTMS has no competition.
Its amazing how similar the iTMS/iPod is to OS X/Apple Computers. Apple claims to be a hardware company, but its actually software that drives people to buy their hardware. Without their great software, there wouldn’t be a need for their hardware.
He does have one point though …
“Because the iPod only allows a very, very slim amount of participation by the outside world.”
Sure, everyone can get an iPod … but what about the Music Store. The features offered are really nice, but can anyone in Australia get it? No. What about other countries? No.
I know … I know … it’s the Record Companies fault … but if Apple don’t get a move on and get their product out to other countries, then people will start to look elsewhere. Also, with the release of the Video iPod, why not “jump start” the iTMS with TV in the non-iTMS countries? This could help with getting the record comapnies on-board (just a thought … not much in it really).
C’mon Apple … give us iTMS. We’ve been waiting long enough.
AJ
Apple’s media devices are nothing, repeat NOTHING in the long-term without legitimate, paid-for, legal content.
I agree with the above, PC-users tend to think it is their ‘right’ to steal other people’s content.
What Apple understands is that yes, some media owners, (record industry in particular) are charging too much for content – THIS IS WRONG. They also understand that downloading illegally from torrent sites IS ALSO WRONG. Geeks like Dave want exclusive rights to other peoples intellectual property, consumers (like myself) don’t mind paying if the price is ‘fair’, (as in ‘Fairplay’).
Fairplay is the middle ground and the only DRM that will work in the long-term.
Dave Winer? Ignore him, he’s a dinosaur, stuck in the ‘Why pay when I can torrent?’ age.
Embrace the future Dave, consumers users of computers outnumber people like you now. The internet (and computer technology in general) doesn’t belong to the geeks anymore, it belongs to ‘the rest of us’. Remember that phrase Dave? The one that really p*ssed you all off in 1984?
MDNMW: personal, as in nothing personal Dave, but your time has come, and gone.
I have no idea what this guy is trying to stay. He can’t make a coherent thought if he tried…
… and global warming is BS. Scaremonger. It’s called WEATHER – you may have heard of it?
Winer was a Mac developer way back when. If I recall, the Frontier scripting environment and More, the first commercially successful outliner on the Mac, were two of his. He was a passionate Mac person.
And then he got pissed at Jobs and has been dissing Apple since.
that guys a fag…
and aj.. plenty of other countries offer itunes music store..
If my memory serves me right didn’t apple hire someone who worked for either Yahoo or Napster to establish their subscription services.??? Perhaps I am indicating the obvious..
—
Yeah, they brought in a consultant from Napster..
pffft..
please.
Listen to yourself… asking the public about a service that is unannounced and non-existent?
What?!
By propping up Podcasting, Apple can put off any subscription development.. free radio, video, etc content through podcasting..
Nobody’s thinking about subscription, especially not the guys that.. let’s face it.. own the market for digital music.
I can still remember the days when Winer gave his stuff away, now he charges for it and it ain’t that great. Totally early 90s in everyway.
Thanks, Dave for your wonderful contributions to the technology arena. Now, just because you’re in that arena doesn’t mean you’re an expert. Keep working on Manilla, stay focused on your weaknesses…
is his name pronounced whiner or weener?
Hey let’s give Dave Winer a break, he’s been in the industry for over 30 years and he been around the block a time or two. He understands true open source and what it means when something isn’t. Yes, the ipod is basically the only game in town when it comes to mp3 players — Apple controls it all. Great right? Maybe not if you’re an accessory partner and Apple commands 10% of your revenue. What do you do, other then succumb to Apple’s draconian demands (this is very Microsoft, by the way.) This is how a great idea breaks down after time; “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. Sometimes when analyze an opposite view, you see things you normally pass over. It’s called enlighten.
And while we’re on topic: Why does MDN attack everyone and anyone that has a different opinion other than “Apple is the best, it can never do any wrong”? It’s always “your with us or against us”. It’s really tiring. We have an administration in office that does this, why does this “your thoughts don’t agree with mine, so your wrong” thinking have to extend here? Where’s the free exchange of ideas; thinking differently… Either MDN’s editors are very young (many of their takes come off as juvenile), or they work for Apple’s PR dept.
duh … your name say’s it all.
I know that iTMS is in other countries you dolt … I guess it’s difficult for you to understand. The only way would be for Apple to release something to the rest of the world, and not the US.
All Mac users want is the complete Mac experience. We aren’t getting it. We pay the same (if not more) four our Mac’s, but we get less than half of what is offered.
Most analysts make some kind of sense, even if it is nonsense. But I can bearly understand a damn thing this guy says. You don’t need to read much of it to know this guy is sucking slough water.
one last comment – without even reading the above comments.
how can anyone take him seriously? his grammar is atrocious! my 5 year old daughter writes better then this idiot. and yes – i purposely do not use caps. his biggest offense is inserting questions every other sentence. it gave me a headache reading the first seven lines – i had to stop reading.
Well, during both last August and last June, Mr. Winer also asserted that the iTMS would become publicly available as a function of Google, but that never happened .. so … heh
http://archive.scripting.com/2005/06/15#When:6:18:31PM
http://archive.scripting.com/2005/08/27
Here is where ‘The Whiner’ is wrong.
Windows succeeded, in the long run, because everyone had access to programs ‘borrowed’ from work and friends and games borrowed from or swapped with friends. As a result, everyone had legacy software to think about when they bought their next computer. They had to get a computer that supported their sources of software.
Look at the iPods. They are the only devices that will support your DRM’ed music. They support most P2P music. They support all of the ripped music a present iPod user has on his computer. Who is going to buy a rival brand and start his music collection over again from scratch?
Millions of iPod owners will not abandon the platform easily. Free music and video is available for the platform now. Dave won’t be able to show you a source that is cheaper than free. He won’t be able to show you a player that can play all of your legacy files.
Dave’s killer app will rip DVD’s to small, very portable, very playable movie files as easily as iTunes rips music CD’s. It will store those files in a database and access those files as easily as iTunes stores and accesses music files. It will serve those files on the internet for all to use just as P2P programs distribute MP3’s now.
Who, besides Apple, is capable of writing that killer app?
Who would risk the litigation by releasing such an app?
mike says:
“By propping up Podcasting, Apple can put off any subscription development.. free radio, video, etc content through podcasting.”
first of all Songs/TV Shows on itunes is NOT the same as podcasts. a subscription/prepay service can indeed help out both the music industry and apple because then the big wigs at my company can back off and enjoy a steady steam of revenue. rather than rely on having a user on average download sixty songs.. ( i am taking that stat from SJ’s keynote).
but fine i will cater to your argument.. keep songs a non subscription service but tv shows and movies i think should be subscription because 80211n is still not mainstream and the technology has not caught up yet. The files for movies and tv shows are too large and no one has 20 mins these days. Sure electric companies are researching ways to provide internet over power lines ( i am taking that news from slashdot/wired) but we are still far away.
The only thing i like about your post mike was itunes radio. Coupled with advertising I think both apple and the music/movie industry can get another stream of revenue/promotion of their content.
I can see an ad. for the next episode for Desperate Housewives followed by the latest song by stevie wonder being aired for the first time on itunes radio!
MW cool: as in Cool beans!
Music Label executive ANON: “Hollywood like the music industry would prefer a continous flow of money from a customer (via a subscription service or a prepay service) rather than have a customer come in buy 1 episode and run the risk of lossing that customer.”
Do you, or anyone else, know how many iTunes Music Store customers are a) repeat customers, b) buy from the same label more than once, c) buy more than 5 tunes per month? If not, I do not see the validity of your concern.
“… you know, whatever, anyway I’m rambling.”
The guy kind of sums it up himself.
Dave Winer is trapped in his own dogma. Trapped, as in contrast to being free. Being so trapped, it’s no wonder he feels excluded.
Listen to Steve’s advice within his recent Stanford Commencement Address about not becoming trapped in dogma.
Steve Jobs, as in Apple Computer, has many natural enemies, most of whom wouldn’t mind if he and the firm failed miserably. Could Dave Winer survive in Steve’s shoes, handle Steve’s imperatives?
Besides, Winer inappropriately makes his complaints personal. There’s a team of remarkably qualified people backing up Steve Jobs. Where’s Winer fit?
It’s seldom you’ll hear such drivel from someone who has so appropriately been named by his parents.
Dave Whiner.
Bambi Hambi
Mac360
If I ever spoke like this where I work, the company would have sent me to get some sort of evaluation..and some time off….I really don’t know what this guy is trying to say…I guess he is at a level that I can’t understand….wow.
…anyway I’m rambling — sounds more like brain diarrhea. Stick a wiener in it quick. MW: english.
MDN, are you sure this interview wasn’t with Ellen Feiss?
Not sure if everyone realizes, but Winer used to be a Mac developer and did a scripting app named Frontier with his company Userland. Applescript came along and killed Frontier (Applescript=Free and Better).
Dave has never forgotten that and he used every opportunity after that to bash Apple. In the last few years he has been quiet, but it is obvious he has never gotten over his deep seated resentment of Apple and Jobs.
“…like transistor radios…”
The funny thing is the other day I was clearing out a supply closet and found an old transistor radio. It had a stylish dial and was probably pretty slick for its time. So I showed it to another person and said “Look, I found an iPod Retro!”
Winer – appropriate last name considering the whining rambling interview.
I suppose somebody will call me racist for this one, too (even though I have no idea what this person looks like).
reading that made my head hurt. I ramble, and that made my head hurt. It would be nice if Apple could release iTunes for Linux as it is making headway into the desktop world. If theyre worried about pirating they can already strip fairplay off the tracks with software, but its a choice and so far I have no reason to even attempt to as I am very satisfied with my digital rights under iTunes. It gives me exactly what Im looking for, the only time I have been upset is when I found out other people cant stream tracks I purchased on the store when I share my library. Apple does need to release Quicktime and iTunes for Linux, its not like it would take long to get the binaries.
WHY DOES MDN DIGNIFY SUCH RUBBISH BY REPRINTING IT???????
MND is really wasting everyone’s time by posting such drivel. This guys has a serious ADD problem. He can’t sustain a train of thought long enough to even finish a sentence. You can’t expect him to reason beyond his obviously superficial and clouded view of the world.
Not even close to interesting. Apart from the insight that such a posting gives into MDN’s sense of relevance (or lack there of in this case).
I think Dave Whiner is partly right and partly wrong…
When you talk about software and computer file formats, especially because of the Internet and the drive to share information, he is right that closed, proprietary protocols and formats won’t survive. That’s why Microsoft is relatively flat as far as growth is concerned. They always have to adapt anything they do to hook that format or protocol to either the Windows OS or the Office suite. Whiner stated that – Microsoft is trying to turn back the clock – back to the early 90’s, but they just are not able to put the genie back in the bottle.
Dave is also right about Apple being an exception to the rule. The iPod is also an exception to the rule – to a point. First of all, I don’t think that he has ever looked at the whole iPod thing. What he doesn’t get is that it’s just not the iPod – it’s the iPod and iTunes and iTMS and pricing and the whole purchase model. Another reason that I know he has not actually looked at the whole iPod phenomenon is that he refers to the iPod format as closed, and he doesn’t know that the other music/player offerings are more closed and proprietary. Can you get Windows Media Player for the Mac? Can you get it for any flavor of Linux? What about some of the other music software? At the same time, Apple (Steve Jobs) is going to eventually HAVE to license FairPlay to 3rd parties or get left behind.
He missed his own explanation about why the iPod is an exception that works. In that interview he was talking about the RSS and how the subscription model for news sites don’t work. I think the same holds true for online music. If it’s not quick, easy and cheap, there’s always the p2p model to get it for free.
As far as iPod video – I’m just not sure that it will be as successful as music. There is some very compelling concepts that make this very interesting. The idea of being able to load some movies and TV shows on a video iPod and being able to connect it to a laptop or video display in your car or connect it to a TV at a friend’s house or in a hotel room would be very cool. Although there are similarities, there are also some very distinct differences:
There will be infinitely more resistance by the motion picture industry to allow this type of purchasing model. Whether they finally allow this type of distribution method is yet to be seen.
Most TV shows and movies are what I would consider dated material. If you like a song, you can listen to it over and over, but the average TV show or movie you will watch it once or twice, then that’s it. Except for the exceptional cult classic most folks will not be willing to pay purchase price for that – they will want to pay a rental cost. I would class music videos as more music than video. Those would probably work with the music model. To be successful, I think there will have to be some kind of ‘rental’ model for video to make this all take off like the music/iPod experience.
What a Whiner
>>WHY DOES MDN DIGNIFY SUCH RUBBISH BY REPRINTING IT???????
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Hey, this thread was one of the best laughs I’ve had all week and I for one applaud MDN for posting it.
As for Winer, people have pretty much said it all here but I would make one point. Dave Winer is a man who got really lucky way back when and made enough money to survive without having to work (sold an outliner that never amounted to anything). Since then he’s done a bunch of small things and hyped himself into an “opinion maker”. Those things were…
He made minor changes to RSS (which was invented by Netscape) and claims to be the father of RSS
He started Userland, the smallest blog platform around, and claims to be the father of blogging
Adam Curry came up with podcasting and Winer “created” the enclosure tag to facilitate it and now claims to be the father of podcasting (a clever idea but hardly a revolution)
So basically, Winer is a guy who has never done anything of much use and has been insulated from the world for so long that he can barely speak coherently anymore. He thinks everything should be free and that capitalists are evil (but will do anything he can to make a buck because he’s a complete hypocrite).
I don’t take him seriously, but he’s good for a laugh.
P.S. He’s posted this thread on his site so you can expect his sycophants to descend shortly…
If you think he’s a moron, just imagine the people who worship him!
My DVD player is a closed platform – I can’t play DVDs on it that don’t conform to my area zone code or whatever it’s called, and I can’t change the software. But I don’t care – my DVD player plays DVDs very nicely, which is what I bought it for.
TiVo is a closed system. They control their product. Yet they sell millions of the devices, because it’s well done and makes recording TV very easy.
I find it rather funny that these analysts, commentators, people who hate Jobs, etc. don’t think the iPod will evolve and change to meet new needs, new features, etc. “But it’s just a music player!” They’re so shortsighted and blinded by their hate for Apple’s success.
“…anyway I’m rambling.”
That is the only coherent statement in the article.
I think the music executive summons up quite nicely the problem with the music industry, more concerned with revenue stream then their customers. Capitalism is about what the consumer wants not what the producer wants to sell. Five minutes with a calculator tells you that a subscription music service is not a good value.
i hate to go negative but whiner has to be one of the biggest jerks in the industry. what a thoroughly unlikeable fellow. if you’re among the circle jerkers who worship at his feet, all is great & groovy. but daresay you challenge him, the poor girl goes ballistic. it’s really a sight to see. but as someone commented earlier, he’s a dinosaur. not really relevant to the conversation going forward