“KCRW-FM General Manager Ruth Seymour was getting her teeth cleaned in February when her dentist suggested the station adopt a new technology called podcasting,” Charles Duhigg reports for The Los Angeles Times. “Seymour was unfamiliar with the software that allows listeners to download audio programs to such portable devices as iPods. Now she knows, and has plenty to smile about.”
“Apple Computer Inc. this week rolled out an updated version of its music software, iTunes, that prominently features podcasts of such KCRW programs as comedian Harry Shearer’s ‘Le Show’ and film critic Elvis Mitchell’s ‘The Treatment.’ Within a day, downloads from Santa Monica-based KCRW exploded from 3,500 a day to 100,000. ‘We’re reeling, trying to figure out what this means,’ Seymour said,” Duhigg reports.
Full article here.
Related MacDailyNews articles:
Apple iTunes leaves Microsoft Media Player in the dust – July 01, 2005
Apple iTunes podcast subscriptions top one million in first two days – June 30, 2005
Analyst: iTunes 4.9 helps Apple by bringing podcasting to the masses – June 28, 2005
Apple releases iTunes 4.9 for Mac and Windows with podcasting features – June 28, 2005
It means a lot of Americans desire commentary and news that isn’t influenced and controlled by the right-wing fake-Christian babblings of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the rest of that ilk. I notice that KCRW and Al Franken are the most popular Podcasts. Maybe iPod owners are more liberal, but probably more open-minded and intelligent.
Anyways, that’s my take.
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What this means???
it means “you’re welcome”
You’re welcome for my transformation of the media, bottom to top.
For killing off galactic sized-businesses that earn money by destroying everyone else instead of my providing people what it is they want to hear and see.
it means that millions of people could make comfortable livings instead of thousands of people making rockstar money not because they earn it, but because they control the distribution channels.
I’m taking the distribution channels and blowing them up because they have failed to use capitalism to their limits.. i’m bringing the invisible hand to squash them – unlimited points of distribution with unlimited options..
that is the real invisible hand of the next market.. and its going to beat the shi’ite out of the old media who have gone from great creators to marketers of commodities in less than 50 years.
the funniest part is that i made the deal with them to bring all their music to the iTMS only a few years ago, and now, i’m going to squash them with the very tool i used to bring them into the fold…. all while we keep selling iPods – an actually inventive device.
I wonder what percentage of KCRW podcast subscribers are people who live in areas without great public radio.
onlymacs: the hate-filled ravings of the communist/democrat party don’t seem to espouse love and respect of all as Christ did… Al Franken HAAAATES Christians. I’ve heard his belittleing and smarmy-hate filled comments from his lips myself. The ACLU does would call actual Christianity a hate-group if they could get away with it not because we hate, but because we believe that there is truth, and they HATE that.
God is the ultimate libertarian (little “L”) – He lets you choose Him or reject Him.. He doesn’t force you to give 50% of what you make to fund questionable wasteful government programs… and threaten to put you in jail if you’d like to keep some of that money so you can give it away to worthwhile causes..
the dems and reps both have a lot to answer for… but Jesus isn’t either dem or republican.. they’re *both* hoars for money and greed – just like the TV evangelists that seem to be more interested in their
gilded buildings, or the Jesus pimps telling you you have to give them
$1000 to know God, or like “Christians” that blame Sept 11th on gays.
I don’t understand the church that shuns the man with tattoos and
piercings, or the gay man seeking answers and walking in the door of
a chruch to find them…. They’re dressed up so nice and can’t be
bothered with people like gays and drug addicts, and the lost. Its
like you need to already be saved before you come in their doors.
Which is funny, because it was Jesus if i recall that was hanging out
with the scum of the earth like tax robbers, prostitutes, and
undesirables, just as well as He hung out with the leaders of the
Church in His day.. except He once trashed the businesses of one lot
calling them evil vipers. To the other lot, He said, ‘Neither do I
condemn you. Go, and sin no more’.
Many Christian churches don’t seem to sound or act as tho they need a savior because they seem to already be part of some club or clique. I am not part of that clique… Jesus is for losers, and i’m the biggest one. I need Him desperately. We all do.
and that’s not a right-or-left debate…. to make those choises is a debate on if there is liberty for people to make those choises.
rock on, brother…
let me sum up – I disagree with the idea that govt can take from you at their whim.. i don’t hate people that believe that.
the left hates Bush. they don’t disagree with him… they hate him.. they say it themselves, i don’t have to put words in their mouths.
there’s a difference between disagreeing with people and hating them… on the whole, generally, and leaving room for all kinds of exceptions, it seems that the left hates the right, while the right disagrees with and is wholly against the left’s ideas.
there is a big but very important difference.
continue to rock on.
Al Wanken, PBS, and all those commie libs can’t get it done. Get over it, you dems lost big time. The biggest podcast is the Rush.
OnlyMacs, Rush and some other conservatives have had podcasts for some time but you access from their site if you are a subscriber. I’m sure they have quite an audience (as well as someone like Art Bell) by charging for their service. As far as I know they don’t allow their podcasts to be d/l’d from iTunes so it won’t show up here. Therefore, the iTunes top ten does not indocate a top ten for the entire podcasting industry.
I think people want talk radio shows but it’s not a liberal or conservative thing. I don’t think all of the radio is controlled by Fox as there are plenty of liberal shows on the radio as well. People want easily accessible, good podcasts and that’s what iTunes provides. That’s all.
Has anyone noticed that they could start charging for podcasts as they are listed as “free”. Has anyone seen one for which you must pay?
MW- “figures”, as in it figures this would soon start a flame war on these pages.
As far as I can telll, KCRW reports the news more honestly and deeply than any station on TV (including CNN, Fox, etc…) The stations on TV have become equivalent to the childish opinions that you see so much of on threads like this. I guess inflaming people gets ratings, but I think so many people are sick to death of it that they are turning to NPR and KCRW. Any *news* station that basically tells you what to think isn’t really news. I include Al Franken, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, Cnn, MSNBC in this catagory. It may be entertaining, and may even bring up something that should be looked into, but the fact is that all these stations have an agenda. KCRW and NPR are as close to *real* news as you are gonna get.
Other. You need some serious psychiatric help. Go for it. I’m sure you’re welfare payments can afford it.
BTW, focus on building up your sense of humor dude.
How ironic, that on a weekend celebrating this great country, ron disrespects it with his divisive hate.
MW “country”
gman…I live in the LA area, and KCRW is NOT your typical Public radio station. They are extremely left-wing, and they don’t broadcast the standard NPR shows.
“left hates Bush. they don’t disagree with him… they hate him.. they say it themselves”
See here is a big problem. Because a few people on the “right” hate (and say so out loud) democrats, does that mean *everyone* on the right hates democrats? Of course not. So why do you think the same would be true for people on the left. Just because a few people have that much anger towards strong supporters of Bush, doesn’t mean everyone does. Clearly, you *want* them to. It allows you to tap into your anger and self pity and all that crap so you can feel justified in your own rage. This weekend, above all, you should drop that bullshit and realize that democrats and republicans both want to see this country remain great and lead the world toward a better place for everyone. It’s just that they have different ideas on how to go about it. Is that so hard to understand?
“KCRW and NPR are as close to *real* news as you are gonna get.”
Yes, if you grew up in the USSR in the 50’s
Is anyone else enjoying iTunevision? (I can’t wait for someone to figure out an easy way to refer to Video PodCasts… PodClips was one I found that’s pretty tolerable)
I’ve been finding a lot of PodCasts that use video and display in the Album Art window of the PodCast section.
I think that as soon as there is a better method to organize your PodCasts, this could easily be a step toward television subscriptions!
OnlyMacs, you STUPID commie c**t
American posters above
No one cares. Get over yourselves.
Liberalism truly is a mental disorder (yes, I’m quoting Mike Savage). Just wait to watch the fireworks over the Supreme Court nominees. The older I get the more I disdain weenies and I think we’ll get to see a lot of weenies coming out of the woodwork (get ready for Ted and Harry Reid).
Ted and Harry Reid.
Oh, the swimmer Ted?
hee hee hee…. you people are really funny.
Sorry, but its true.
You guys are as bad as Tom Cruise on Oprah.
Its fun to watch though, so please continue.
Dank,
You’re probably not from the USA (just going by your name), but please remember that Tom Cruise is a liberal.
Nikki
Tom Cruise isn’t a liberal. Tom Cruise is a nutter.
Bloody Xenu. What a load of second rate science fiction nonsense.
Hey “the other steve jobs”
You are exactly the kind of christian I hate, and I suspect precipitates the same feeling from million if not billions of others for your “faith”.
Have a nice day!
“????” “You are exactly the kind of christian I hate, and I suspect precipitates the same feeling from million if not billions of others for your “faith”.
Why so Much hate for christ followers?
“Tom Cruise isn’t a liberal. Tom Cruise is a nutter.”
He’s both—and he’s really short too.
Can’t we all just get along? or at least agree to disagree?
Christians that blindly follow GW and his cronies just because their church says so are completely ignorant of what is really going on. See, GW leads you on with all the divisive issues (abortion, gays, etc) but never acts on them. BUT what they do act on is giving corporations power and self governance which is not good for anybody but the rich. Here is the thing, either we will be regulated by the government, which is suppose to be by the people for the people, OR we are regulated by the corporations which are by the rich for the rich.
This country needs to get over the “GOD” thing. Fundamentalism is bad in any form, period.
Also ‘other steve jobs’ show me where Al Franken has ever said he hates christians. Give me proof, saying it doesn’t make it so. I think you hate Al Franken because he catches the right in their lies. It’s pretty funny how he makes O’Reilly look like a monkey.
http://www.sweetjesusihatebilloreilly.com/
PS — And people with ‘troop supporting stickers’ if you really support the troops here is an organization that you need to send money.
http://www.fisherhouse.org/
I think it’s great that more people are gettingn a chance to listen to Franken and whomever else Jobs is pushing.
It’s going to be like when Jobs pushed that “Fresh Air” NPR show with Terry Gross show when the audiobooks section came out.. Everybody tried it out because Jobs liked it so much – then promptly cancelled it when they heard how left-of-center it is.
We (conservatives) were in the minority for years, and we never resorted to the rhetoric of some of the out-of-power lefties today. Tip: you have to convince the majority of your ideas to regain power. The left’s problem? It presented its ideas and nobody agreed…
“Christians that blindly follow GW and his cronies just because their church says so…”
Wow, that statement says a lot more about the speaker than it does about the subject – do you really think there is an army out there of robotic Bush followers, following zombie-like the proclamations of preachers and the GOP? Is that what you think of people who disagree with you?
I suppose it’s easier than considering the possibility that other thoughtful human beings might have a different set of ideas and beliefs than you do.
Take it easy there, fella…
“Al Wanken, PBS, and all those commie libs can’t get it done. Get over it, you dems lost big time. The biggest podcast is the Rush.”
Hey!
Why don’t you go F*CK yourself you moronic retard!
The “dems” lost and so did the world! The election was stolen just as plainly as if they had come in with guns and ski masks.
You mindless losers are so utterly clueless as to what is going on it makes me want to puke!
There is a word for it:
DENIAL
Look it up!
Here is another one for you:
FASCISM
Look it up!
Considering you obviously support the BS that is going on, here is hoping you are soon added in the resulting body count. No great loss. Just one less room temperature IQ equipped moron to worry about.
“The left’s problem? It presented its ideas and nobody agreed…”
Gee, I didn’t realize GW won 100% of the vote.
“God is the ultimate libertarian (little “L”) – He lets you choose Him or reject Him.”
Ha. How deluded. Yahweh is the ultimate jealous, genocidal megalomaniac. He wants to separate out a chosen few while he burns and tortures the rest for all eternity. What a freak.
God is a fantasy
Pay no attention to twdldee. He doesn’t exist.
hey wuts w/the political postings…
chill out ppl
Why does it matter if he’s liberal, Niki, the point is he’s not a good person.
And further more, what does it matter if I am from the US?
Either way you all proved my point.
You guys are funny to watch.
Dank –
How the hell do you know what kind of person Tom Cruise is? That’s like me saying “Dank is twelve years old” just from reading your posts.
Now ‘Nutjob’ – I think we can safely say Cruise qualifies for that.
That was a funny post for about the first 10 lines. Give our scroll wheels a break. Your point doesn’t warrant that much space, dork.
That was a funny post for about the first 10 lines. Give our scroll wheels a break. Your point doesn’t warrant that much space, dork.
That was a funny post for about the first 10 lines. Give our scroll wheels a break. Your point doesn’t warrant that much space, dork.
“…Gee, I didn’t realize GW won 100% of the vote”
“…Ha. How deluded. Yahweh is the ultimate jealous, genocidal megalomaniac. He wants to separate out a chosen few while he burns and tortures the rest for all eternity. What a freak.”
Liberalism and atheism – they go together like PB & J.
Atheism is brought on by people who use logic as their primary source of information. Logically, it is clear that Jesus could have been some guy with a God complex at the right time in the right place. We see in our society people with God complexes fairly often (maybe once every ten years?), and with the lack of mass communication someone with a God complex could have much more easily created a big splash back in the day. So clearly, believing in Jesus as the son of God requires a lot of faith.
I leave the political rantings momentarily to comment on the subject of the article:
I live in L.A. and have listened AND subscribed to KCRW for more than a decade. They do indeed lean left, but that is typical with all academia and the KCRW is a product of Santa Monica College—a school I attended back in the ’70s. The station produces a number of wonderful programs and, IMHO, takes its community responsibility seriously. They do indeed run NPR and All Things Considered, which are also very well produced. These shows do lean toward taking the internationalist view that the USA is often “too big for its britches”, but if you can get by some of that, the shows contain a lot of great reporting. Harry Shear, who generates Le Show, from KCRW every Sunday has had his show listed as a paid subscription on Audible.com for a while. It is now free via podcasting. That is generous in my view and I salute KCRW for making their programming available, even to those that do not support the costs to do so through subscribing to the station.
To the right I say: Those on the left, with whom you disagree, are not necessarily Commies or traitors.
To the left I say: Those on the right, with whom you disagree, are not necessarily ignorant, moronic, hate mongers, gay bashers, or religious fanatics.
On this Independence Day I would hope that everyone in the USA (I recognize that we have some international posters) do a few simple things. Re-read some historical documents; they are short and clear. The Declaration of Indepence and the Constitution of the United States. Most people doing the name calling unfortunately have little understanding of the framework of our Republic. A recognition and understanding of the clearly defined rights and responsibilities of each branch of Government, along with the division of States rights vs Federal rights will illuminate for many willing to be truly open minded, the correct path we as a society should take. IMHO, most of the well reported “divisiveness” in this country would evaporate if the bulk of our populace understood the beautiy and logic of our Constitution, gave credit to the deep thought and debate that went into its formation, and lived by its edicts.
Happy July 4th everyone!
Believeing in Jesus as the son of God does indeed require a lot of faith. In fact, he was the first one to tell us that. It also, I think, requires a lot of faith to believe that a poor, obscure Nazarene living 2k years ago could be so precious and sacred and personal to the billions that came (and still come) after him, and just have been some guy with – what was it? A ‘God complex’?
Logically, a carpenter’s words would never have made it beyond his village, much less have changed the world.
“Considering you obviously support the BS that is going on, here is hoping you are soon added in the resulting body count. No great loss. Just one less room temperature IQ equipped moron to worry about.”
Now that is hate speech.
God bless you and help you out of your misery.
okay… i’m confused…
a few days ago i post something as harmless as “Lookit me! First Post!” and i get edited AND a brow beating from Guess Who for, of all things, “wasting space”. not just once… but twice!
today, in this thread folks are getting way off topic, downright nasty and taking up voluminous amounts of space and nothing happens.
so, here’s my question… what’s up with that?!
if moderators are going to edit, do it evenly and fairly across the board and keep things on topic.
and that’s my 2¢.
Tempus Fugit could not be more right.
Puto tempus fugere est.
The time fled, and now its time for me to, too.
I think personaly that regardless of wether Jesus was a man on a personal mission with a God complex or wether he was the actual Son of God doesn’t make much of a difference anymore. The fact is that so many people have prescribed to what he started and they get something out of it. That is good enough for me. I hold the same belief for Buddhists, Muslims or any other faiths out there. What bothers me about the “religious right” in this country is that most of them seem to have this burning desire to force their views upon others.
Hey †empus, shut yer rants and stop wasting space. Can’t you see we’re talking politics here?
Wow, “OnlyMacs”, you certainly have a an open-minded, more intelligent view compared to those who disagree with you. You must be very, very smart.
MDN way to turn our little Mac utopia into an American right vs. left bullshit chorus.
Surely, you could have guested how this story about Franken or whoever would have unravelled. Every time the Rush Limbauh (I don’t even know if I’m spelling these people’s names correctly) stories get posted here it turns into an American right vs. left cold war.
MDN here’s a suggestion: If you’re going to post these stories, create another room where all the Americans from the left and right can go at each other ad nausea
Now back to our regularly scheduled program…
well, i just want to say that you all are a bunch of nutty-nutheads! sheesh!
“Now that is hate speech.
God bless you and help you out of your misery.”
Reap as you sew fool… reap as you sew.
You people invented the fine art of HATE, so why not turn the blowtorch in your direction and see how you like it? Of course you all start crying like a bunch of little girls when anyone on the left with some balls gives you a taste of your own medicine.
Get over yourself with this “Help me out of my Misery” BS! God has treated me JUST FINE thank you very much.
Too bad He/She/It didn’t give you a brain to think for yourself with.
Must suck to be so out of touch with reality, but hey… As long as you keeping smoking that electronic crack pipe they call Fox News, I am sure you will remain fat, dull and stupid… But with a big content, and ARROGANT SMILE on your face.
MacMania,
For at least as long as Bush has been in office, anything remotely touching on Red v Blue topics has sparked this kind of reaction. Its our national divisiveness, but its also that Mac users tend to be passionate and MacDailyNews readers tend to be opinionated.
All 3 + politics = what you see
God bless you and help you out of your misery.
———-
What happened to separation of church and state?
eieio wrote:
“Hey †empus, shut yer rants and stop wasting space. Can’t you see we’re talking politics here?”
believe it or not… that kind of humor i can live with!
poindexter wrote:
“well, i just want to say that you all are a bunch of nutty-nutheads! sheesh!”
sho’ ’nuff, ‘dexter… sho’ ’nuff…
Hey neo, I am very smart. I own a couple of Macs, so that obviously places me several rungs above Windows users, don’t you agree
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Well, this was fun. Never enjoyed stirring up the pot so much.
I remember a consumer survey that I had commissioned once. There was some sort of correlation between Mac users, BMW owners and Democrats. On the other hand, there was a correlation between non-computer owners, Mercedes owners and Republicans.
I have no clue what it meant.
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Mike. There is nothing regarding the separation of church and state in the Constitution, which says:
Article [I.] (See Note 13)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
MW neither, as in neither promote religion or prohibit it.
If Rush was free like these other ‘bozos’ he’d be the #1 podcaster.
“If Rush was free like these other ‘bozos’ he’d be the #1 podcaster.”
You could be on to something there!
Lord knows there are millions of MORONS in this country that love to line that drug addict’s pockets.
The thing is, the word FREE just isn’t in the average Republican’s vocabulary, so don’t hold your breath.
If they can’t make a buck off of it, they have no interest in it, so… Don’t expect much in the way of FREE Podcasts from the rabid right.
“Mike. There is nothing regarding the separation of church and state in the Constitution,”
Right Ron,
We have just been imagining this for the last 229 years.
You people are simply amazing to watch.
Are you really this ignorant, or do you just pretend to be for fun?
actually, Ron IS right – there is no mention of a ‘separation of church and state’ in the constitution… there is only a ban on congress establishing religion – the expression comes from a speech by Jefferson years later…
Billy Bob Jack–
Just read the words.
I know you libs like to think that the Constitution is a “living” document.
As Rush says, “Words mean things”.
The authors are spinning in their graves right now, just like you lot trying to spin everything to your desires.
Get over it, you lost, President Bush is here for a while yet. You’re going to go into orbit when he nominates two, yes two, Supreme Court justices in the next couple of months.
“actually, Ron IS right”
Well I sure as h–l am not left, or pinko.
rolleyes
The thing is, the word FREE just isn’t in the average Republican’s vocabulary, so don’t hold your breath.
Yes we believe in working for a living, not slurping from the government trough. Work for welfare or don’t get it.
Nitzsche is dead.
Mom and Dads please take your kids with you when you go on vacation.
> Tom Cruise isn’t a liberal
Tom Cruise is a man brainwashed by the scientology “church”…
And anyone using the words communists and democrats (meaning the US party) within the same sentence and an equal sign between them is just plain stupid and disqualifies himself from any serious discussion – face it, the democratic party is more conservative than the typical center parties in more advanced parts of the world…
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Being a foreigner it’s always fascinating for me to see with how much hate the political debate in the US rages on! I wish the americans still had a great political writer like Marc Twain was to remind them that extremists are destroying the very same values they are fighting for!
Re: Freedom and July 4th
Very Christian-conservative Spain made Gay marriages legal last week, as well as adoptions by Gays and inheritance rights by one’s gay partner. They are the third country to do so. Wooo-hoooo!! I guess USA isn’t quite as free with their rights “…to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness” as they think they are.
Regarding this “freedom” you Yanks THINK you know something about…
“The thing about freedom, though, is that you can’t just want it for yourself, or only for your own kind. Freedom means everybody.”
~ Mab Segrest, author ~
“Liberty and justice for all. What part of ‘all’ don’t people understand?”
~ Patricia Schroeder, representative, U.S. House ~
On this Independence Day, remember the sacrifices of your soldiers…
“The Air Force pinned a medal on me for killing a man and discharged me for loving one.”
~ Leonard Matlovich, U.S. Air Force sergeant ~
If cruelty, hate, bigotry and oppression are your “family values”, the morals by which you teach your children, then I want nothing of you, your kind, or your religion!
Go, celebrate your day of “freedom” knowing not all people are free in your country; not free to express and celebrate love; not free to visit an ill loved one; not free to exercise the same rights as other couples; not free to raise and love an unwanted child. Like the minorities of the past, Gays do not seek to be special, just equal, just freedom from the oppressing majority. But that’s okay, you don’t give a damn, you have yours, right? F-k everyone else!
Is this the America that you celebrate on the 4th?
(BTW: “I have mine, f-k the rest of you!” is EXACTLY how 99% of the rest of the world sees the US. Serious! …and they’re right!)
there is only a ban on congress establishing religion –
—-
Ah, basically, the government cannot set up an official religion for USA, as was the Established Church of England, etc. etc.
In other words, one of the reasons the Puritans left England in the first place…
My point was, of course, let’s take the ‘God Bless our Enemies’ shit out of the dialogue please… God hasn’t done anything for me lately.. and he sure as hell hasn’t done anything for the US, or Saddam or anything going on in Iraq.
(Okay, so I’m an atheist.. should I really be using the phrase ‘sure as hell’?)
It’s always interesting to read a foreigner’s take on American internal polital debates. Mike here is obviously upset that America hasn’t embraced homosexual marriage. He sees us as saying “I have mine, f-k the rest of you!”
So tell me, BEFORE Spain recognized gay marriage last week, were Spaniards intolerant? Were they homophobic?
My guess is that you know exactly zip-point-sh*t about American freedoms, and base your opinions (I assume from your rhetoric) solely on militant activist groups, so I’ll give you the inside scoop on something: America will have the debate on gay marriage on our own terms and according to our own timetable. If we decide it’s valid, we’ll adopt it. If we decide it’s not, we won’t.
Hey Mike,
Don’t get in too much of a hurry to understand freedom. I mean, Italians were fascists just a few years ago, right? Oh, I guess the gay marriage thing wipes out that particular bit of history…
Oh, and happy Independence Day!
OnlyMacs said:
“…I remember a consumer survey that I had commissioned once”
translation:
“…I asked my mom & dad once”
“…the democratic party is more conservative than the typical center parties in more advanced parts of the world…”
well…?
would the so-called ‘advanced’ parts please step forward? I can only assume France, from the misspelling of ‘Marc’ and the lobbing of insults from anonymity…
“…If cruelty, hate, bigotry and oppression are your “family values”, the morals by which you teach your children, then I want nothing of you, your kind, or your religion!”
hey! even Italian gay guys are drama queens! small world…
Well lets look at America’s “freedoms”. 150 years ago, despite our constition, we had slaves. SLAVES. Then when Lincoln (the father of the Republican party) abolished slavery the South went nuts. The South, which is very rooted in Christianity. The South decided “screw the law” and made sure that blacks weren’t treated as equals. Liberals – yeah thats right LIBERALS, realized that this was atrocious, and went down south and risked their lives to bring genuine equality (or at least close to it) to the blacks in this country. When was that? 40 years ago? Whoa, a whole 40 years! The last group of people who have their rights withheld because of their belief system are Gays. The religious right does not want them to have equal rights, and I doubt they will for quite some time. The USA doesn’t yet live up to “freedom, and equality for all” yet. The USA sure as hell didn’t live up to it when we had Slavery, and didn’t live up to it in the 60’s. We have made progress, BIG progress though. It looks as if for the moment, however, our progress has stalled.
Shit man, if the uber-conservatives had their way, women in this country wouldn’t be able to wear skirts, and rock & roll would have been made illegal.
> lets see ya-
I can only assume France, from the misspelling of ‘Marc’ and the lobbing of insults from anonymity…
Wrong… that shows your level of argumentation: Pick out a small typing error and make of fool of yourself in the process.
I certainly won’t tell you what country I’m from – it’s enough to say that my country has been a democracy for more than 700 years (with its up and downs of course) and that in all this time we never had the primitiveness to attack a political opponents sexual behaviour instead of his political actions – which is probably why we are still a democracy.
In fact, you didn’t even answer to the fact that anyone who compares the democrats to communists is utterly illiterate and has no idea about what reality outside of Fox channels world is…
Bye bye, US democracy, Guantanamo is the most blatant proof that your president gives a shit about human rights he pretends to defend.
such drama!
first of all, slavery is certainly America’s great sin… Africans were caught by their neighbors and sold into slavery in this country – they were tortured, beaten, raped, abused, and systematically demoralized. Through generations of courage & determination they claimed their own right to the constitutional protections of this country…
gays have been – what – teased? Just because you can’t marry under American law, don’t start with the “I’m a slave” bs. By the way, straight guys can’t marry other guys, either. You’re not asking for ‘equal’ protection – you’re asking for ‘new’ protections. That takes time and debate.
also, this use of the term ‘religious right’ as the bogeyman upon whom you can blame all your troubles is adolescent.
> Halix
okay – still anonymous as to origin – still lobbing insults –
As to Guantanamo, I’ll just say that it’s interesting that some people are strangely silent about the grisly human rights violations of actual offenders (Syria, Egypt, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc.), but loudly (and anonymously) decry America if someone’s Koran gets mishandled between his scheduled prayer time and his afternoon snack time.
“Just because you can’t marry under American law, don’t start with the “I’m a slave” bs”
Puh-lease stop putting words into my mouth. You are the drama queen – I never made an equal sign there. Simply, gays are withheld certain rights and therefore not treated as equals in this country. That’s a fact. Hopefully someday the USA will make it over this one last little tiny hurdle. It’s not a big deal, but if we wanna walk it like we talk it, then gays shouldn’t be withheld the right to marry whomever the want to. That’s just my opinion.
Why is it that Europeans seem so transfixed on American politics? I mean, I read the occaisional Guardian or Mirror article, even the translated Pravda or Le Monde once in a while…
But I surely don’t assume from these media articles that I have the requisite knowledge of these countries to criticize them, much less to do so as violently as others seem to criticize the US. A lot of vehemence and not much insight or understanding.
> I’ll just say that it’s interesting that some people are strangely
> silent about the grisly human rights violations of actual offenders
1. You imply by that that the US are not actual offenders, which every sane person with any idea of the human rights and the Geneva convention will deny – we are not talking about someones Quran being flushed down a toilet. We are talking about people being held indefinitely and without any possibility to defend themselves legally in a prison that would be illegal by itself if placed in the US. We are talking about several people having been freed after months and years of emprisonment because some clever guy finally understood that they were innocent – without any kind of remuneration for their time life stolen because some idiots think that any guy with a beard is a terrorist…
2. It’s absolutely ridiculous if the US accuse for example Syria of human rights violation, if they continue their practice to send them presumed terrorists to have them tortured. There have been several cases of (as we now now) innocent people having been tortured in these states, because the US don’t want to make their hands dirty themselves (especially after Abu Ghraib…).
What you obviously don’t understand is that the magical word “presumed” that protects anyone suspected of illegal behaviour has no more value in the US as soon as you are suspected of terrorism (meaning “anyone who opposes our right to walk in any country we please” as defined by the US government).
The word “presumed” is the base of any legal prosecution in a democratic state, which is why Guantanamo casts quite a shadow on US democracy.
3. Arguing that “if someone else misbehaves I have the right to do so too” is absolutely the kind of Kindergarden argumentation I was expecting from you…
When their is no good argument available, everyone feel free to exaggerate what someone said, and change what they meant to make up something for you to have a case against.
Why is it that Europeans seem so transfixed on American politics?
Because America is the most powerful country in the world, and what they do affects everyone. Get it?
> A lot of vehemence and not much insight or understanding.
I have lived several years in the US and have finally leaved your country with the puzzling question why such a beautiful country with so many wonderful people can have such a catastrophic politic and legal system…
“…gays shouldn’t be withheld the right to marry”
Hey, man – I don’t necessarily disagree with you on gay marriage, and I know it seems like a small point to make, but it’s also an important one:
There is no ‘right’ to marry enumerated in the US constitution. There is only the law.
My apologies if I drew an inappropriate conclusion about your reference to slavery, but every time this discussion happens, somebody compares slavery to homosexuality and there IS NO COMPARISON. To avoid confusion, proponents of gay marriage should stop invoking slavery and argue gay marriage on its own merits.
>Halix
Belgium? let’s see, Austria? am I getting warm?
1st of all… If America extends the protections of the Geneva Convention to the captured prisoners held in Guantanamo, it would be purely out of courtesy, since, under Geneva itself, they don’t qualify for protection as POW’s.
Secondly, we’re all real sorry about the lack of legal expertise available to enemy combatants captured on the battlefield, it’s just that we’re still a little pissed off about the 9-11 thing, see?
Now I know some of you think all those people deserved to die just for being Americans, but most of us here don’t.
“Just read the words.
I know you libs like to think that the Constitution is a “living” document. […]
The authors are spinning in their graves right now, just like you lot trying to spin everything to your desires.”
Wait, so what is all this shit from the Right about America being a Christian nation then? That sounds like they are trying to use the context of the founding of our country to push their religious agenda on the rest of us. If they’re going to use context (though incorrectly), the Left should have the same opportunity. As such, you need to read a little relevant history and realize that the freedom of religion also implies the freedom from religion.
“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion”
Treaty of Peace and Friendship Between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, 1796-1797, Joel Barlow, negotiated under the Washington administration and ratified under the Adams administration.
“[…] no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities […]”
Thomas Jefferson, “Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in Virginia,” 1779
“Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.”
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802
“History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.”
Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect.”
James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774
“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822
“Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance.”
Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, Madison’s words, according to Gaustad, are from his letter of 10 July 1822 to Edward Livingston
“Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it is certainly the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.”
George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28, 1789
“I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being molested myself.”
John Adams from his letter to Richard Cranch, August 29, 1756
“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. […] It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses…”
John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788
“Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery […]”
John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788
Should I go on?
“why such a beautiful country with so many wonderful people can have such a catastrophic politic and legal system…”
ever stop to think that our political and legal system comes from the will and electoral decisions of a “beautiful country with so many wonderful people”?
maybe – just maybe – you DISAGREE with us. it’s okay! our political and legal system allows for that!
All of this war against the “others” is very disconcerting to me. Extremism & absolutism are sins from any standpoint. Fundies in the Middle East, on Fox & NPR leave NO room for disagreement. That can only lead to cr*p like the spew going on here.
My Mac, My iPods & my soon to be obsolete analog TV are not battlegrounds for name calling, fundie finger pointing & trash talk.
I used to think the Winblows vs Maczealots shi’ite was tiresome.
I now hope for real statesmen & reporters to show how tired most of the country is of those who treat the future of our society like a WWF tag match.
Happy 4th
Thats cool Puh-lease. I was just trying to show the evolution of this country and the march of true equality here. With regard to gay rights, I wanted to point out that we aren’t quite finished with the job (imho). Have a good 4th…
effwerd –
so what’s yer point? enjoyin’ that new Bartlett’s, are ya?
Cold…
Don’t you have any historic knowledge? Australia has been a monarchy for centuries, a part of the 3d Reich and occupied by the allied forces. It has officially become a democracy on april 27 of 1945, but a free democracy only in 1955.
Belgium has been a monarchy too, although always torn up between its neighbours. It has become a constitutional democracy in 1830, after having been a part of the Netherlands after the congress of vienna in 1815.
I really understand your being pissed of about 9-11, but let’s face it, Bush was warned by his own security advisor that such a think would happen, the FBI had 9 possibilities to prevent it – shouldn’t you rather be pissed off at them?
And if you wanted to follow the feeling in your stomach instead of your brain and take revenge – wasn’t Afghanistan enough? Wouldn’t have it been clever to capture Bin Ladin first instead of giving all islamic extremists in the world one more reason to hate you by attacking Iraq?
well I’ve been listening to a couple of KCRW broadcasts, and I’m having a hard time finding the part in their programming where they spin anything, or try and tell you what to think. I haven’t really heard any reporting of opinion, and they seem to interview people who are really knowledgeable about whatever they are covering. I know some people here think KCRW is left of center. Please give me some quantifiable evidence of that based on their actual reporting?
“…we never had the primitiveness to attack a political opponents sexual behaviour instead of his political actions – which is probably why we are still a democracy.”
So the key to a lasting democracy is not attacking a political opponents sexual behavior? What if he blows goats?
> ever stop to think that our political and legal system comes from the will and electoral decisions
> of a “beautiful country with so many wonderful people”?
You’ve got a point here, that’s exactly what’s puzzling me… well, I suppose there are two possibilities:
1. It’s the money and not the american people who in the end decides who becomes president.
2. The majority of people is fed up with politics and thinks it’s not worth to bother anymore.
Because I never met a single American who said that giving Bin Ladin weapons in the 80s was smart, who believed that politics should be a poor second to the church or who are ready to give up their freedom in a way it was ripped of from them with the patriot act…
> What if he blows goats?
As long as he is a good politician and the country profits from his policy he’s free to blow tulips or whatever he likes, as long as its legal…
“so what’s yer point? enjoyin’ that new Bartlett’s, are ya?”
No reading comprehension skills, huh? Its a long thread and I’m sure you have a short attention span but you can manage if you put some effort into it. Given your juvenile repartee that I use a new Bartlett’s, whatever that is, shows that you have neither the intellectual nor the argumentative facilities to participate in such a discussion. Maybe you should just go back to your GameBoy.
the above is the state of affairs in the apple world.
these worthless news stories and subsequent discussion (above) will continue until the first delays of the chip from intel for the new apples are announced.
weeks later steve will announce he has been secretly working with amd for a new chip for apples.
intel will suck, amd will not.
and the steve religion will advance.
>Halix
Sorry man, watchin’ the kids and didn’t have time to properly google ‘700 year-old democracy’. So you’re Swiss, then! Why so cagey?
As to:
“…the FBI had 9 possibilities to prevent it – shouldn’t you rather be pissed off at them?”
No, I’ll reserve my anger for the murdering bastards that did it, thanks!
And:
“… Wouldn’t have it been clever to capture Bin Ladin first instead of giving all islamic extremists in the world one more reason to hate you by attacking Iraq?”
Having Islamic extremists hate you is not exactly a badge of shame. I suppose we could have been cosmopolitan about it and apologized for being Americans – maybe pulled a Clinton and lobbed a couple of useless missiles at token targets – but I like the ‘hunt down terrorists and their sponsors and kill them’ approach much better. Call me kooky, but f*ck ’em. If they hadn’t done what they did, we wouldn’t be doing what we’re doing.
As for OBL, well, it’s coming… little bastard’s hard to find!
“…I use a new Bartlett’s, whatever that is…”
effwerd,
Bartlett’s is a book of famous quotations – I figured someone who worked so hard to get repartee, intellectual, and argumentative in the same sentence would know that…
> but I like the ‘hunt down terrorists and their sponsors and kill them’ approach much better
I’ve got no problem with this, but as even the CIA has to admit that Iraq has gone from a place where terrorists were NOT welcome to a place where terrorists are bread as nowhere else in the world, perhaps even you should question how wise it was to attack Iraq… (unless of course your own sources know something that the CIA doesn’t?)
And what is absolutely unacceptable is that when the US go huntin’ down terrorists it has to cost (at least) 10 times the number of innocent human lives that were lost in the tragic events of 9-11.
And back to square one:
I believe it was something like this–
Apple iTunes 4.9 dramatically increases KCRW podcast downloads
And you didn’t answer my question: Wouldn’t have it been clever to capture Bin Ladin first?
Because the problem is not only that extremists have more reasons to hate you, but the real problem is that practically nobody on this world stands behind you anymore – which must be quite a new feeling for the US…
“…that’s exactly what’s puzzling me…”
Halix –
What’s puzzling me is why you list only apathy and greed under your possibilities… is it not possible that the majority of Americans, those “wonderful people” as you called them, agree with and support our political and legal system to a large extent?
Are you so arrogant in your “more advanced” (your words again) country that you cannot imagine disagreement without vice as its cause?
“…you didn’t answer my question: Wouldn’t have it been clever to capture Bin Ladin first?”
Of course it would have been clever! You act as if it were a choice, and we decided to leave him at large!. When we find him, we’ll get him…
As for your CIA comments, they are absolutely wrong on all accounts. Iraq is not, in fact, a breeding ground for terrorists – instead, it is a magnet for foreign terrorists. They pour in from Syria and Egypt and Saudi Arabia because they know, as we do, that an Iraqi democracy stands in the way of continued terrorist presence in the Middle East. More Iraqis than Americans are killed by terrorists in Iraq.
Years of pacification, apathy, and self-delusion led to increasingly violent attacks on innocents by these groups – 9-11 was by no means the first attack – and the majority of Americans decided through the election process that it was better to fight this battle now, instead of passing it along to be fought later.
Look, everyone has always admired the Swiss commitment to neutrality. Switzerland is an important force for peace in the world. But sometimes the fight comes whether you want it or not.
… those liars of Fox News…
I have no problem with taking the fight to them, but strategically Iraq was clearly a dubious choice (no pun intended), and has resulted in a mess that we will be attempting to clean up for a long long time. We may never clean it up, and in the end, Iraq could be taken over by Islamic extremists more loyal to Bin Laden. Certainly Bush has given them ammunition when he said that if we fail it will result in “utter humiliation” for the USA. Well, we are in it now, and boy I pray that we can pull this thing out. Wether we do or not remains to be seen. I, for one, feel that we need to stick it out now that we are there.
“…but the real problem is that practically nobody on this world stands behind you anymore…”
This is not true, but even if it were, it still wouldn’t be the ‘real problem’. The ‘real problem’ is terrorism. There are currently 48 countries publicly supporting the coalition forces in Iraq, donating either men, arms, equipment, or money.
Perhaps you meant to say that practically no European media outlet stands behind us?
“…I pray that we can pull this thing out…”
I agree, G Spank, and all your worries about Iraq may indeed come to pass…
But I can only believe that the eradication of Saddam was a good thing, and that even a troubled new democracy is far superior to any murderous regime.
> Perhaps you meant to say that practically no European media outlet stands behind us?
No, I mean nobody with any weight… let’s face it, there are three powers that matter on this world: The US, the EU, China (and perhaps Russia).
It’s not only the European media who are against this war, it’s the people, even those of countries who officialy stand behind you (you don’t think that GB would be in Iraq if Blair had to ask the British…?).
China is too busy buying up the american industry with the dollars they get from you and has no interest at all to allow others to force upon them their view of human rights.
The same is true for Russia, where Bush has given Putin the perfect pretext for suppressing the Tchetchnians but hasn’t managed to build a coalition with them.
I repeat, nobody of any weight stands behind the US, you are alone – and have never been more in need of good friends. It will need a man with more brains than Bush to rebuild trust in your country…
“…there are three powers that matter on this world: The US, the EU, China”
No offense there, Halix, but I’d have to disagree and say that the will of all people matters, not just the big guys. And as for the comment about Blair, I believe he was just easily re-elected after standing solidly with Bush since 9-11? So maybe he did “ask the British”?
And lastly, America is not making decisions on national security and the war on terror in order to “rebuild trust” with the Swiss or anyone else. We will do what we think is right and necessary. If you trust us – fine. If you don’t – fine. You make your own decision. Bush, Blair, and the leaders of all the other countries who (according to you) “don’t matter” certainly have enough “brains” to understand this.
Helix, I completely agree with you about the USA being more alone than ever. That was one of the biggest problems with the way Bush handled buildup to the Iraq Invasion. HE FLUBBED IT (because, well he didn’t have much of a case). Straight up, he squandered one of our most important resources in the fight against Terrorism, our standing with the world community. That’s what I don’t understand about so many of the Bush supporters – we need to do a better job with this – it’s pretty damned important.
My question in this situation is this: Are we creating more terrorists than we are killing? I think that is the most important factor in this game. I wish there was an accurate way to measure that.
And yeah, “lets see ya”, I think it is AWESOME that Saddam is outta there, but I question wether or not it was worth the cost. But yeah, Saddam was a punk that needed to be put down (not unlike Fidel Castro).
wait a minute – just re-read your post…
are you implying that the US is the cause of both human rights violations in China and the situation in Chechnya?
Wow, is there anything in the world that is not the fault of the US, in your mind?
I don’t know what any of this has to to with anything but there seems to be much dissent at MDN today. Libs and Dems. Who cares really. So fun though. The only people you have to watch out for are the radicals on either side. Myself I’m Left and Right. I like to think myself as Left and liberal on most issues though just because I don’t want to be lumped in with the Right who come off as total crack-pot, scheming, greedy, childish, hypocritical, standing-on-moral-high-ground, fearful-yet-oh-so-arrogant-liars most of the time. Then again the Left often come off as weak. I guess I’d rather look weak and be strong than be and arrogant/ignorant follower of things I don’t truly understand. Fear. That’s the thing that really scares me about the Right. Their actions and arguments seem heavily steeped in fear. The irony seems to be that the Right can sometimes seem to blither on and on about their religious beliefs and what God wants and so on. So fearful and judgmental. Fearing and judging, as far as I know, are two of the only things that God consistently “hates” –and thats throughout all religions.
sorry for the rant….
and with robiwan’s words of, well, wisdom I guess… I’m off to nap
good arguments, guys, not too much name-calling
thanks
lets see ya –
Blair getting reelected was down to one thing. The complete disarray of the Conservative Party, Britain’s other main political force. During the campaign, Gordon Brown, the real intellectual heavyweight of the Government, had to basically hold Blair’s hand at every public appearance to stop him being pelted. Thanks to Iraq, Blair is very unpopular, and even those who voted Labour want him to step down. If the Conservatives had chosen Michael Portillo as their leader three years ago rather than Iain Duncan Smith (now replaced), Blair would have been out by a landslide.
Halix
“Don’t you have any historic knowledge? Australia has been a monarchy for centuries, a part of the 3d Reich and occupied by the allied forces. It has officially become a democracy on april 27 of 1945, but a free democracy only in 1955”
The Commonwealth of Australia was founded in 1901, and although nominally ruled by the British Monarchy, has been virtually an independent republic for its entire history. It was never occupied by the 3rd Reich, being located some 9000 miles away from Germany between the Indian Ocean and the Tasman Sea.
I’m sure you mean Austria, but just want to check that you do understand there’s a difference between the two.
Sorry ’bout Australia, I really meant Austria
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> are you implying that the US is the cause of both human rights violations in China and the situation in Chechnya?
No, I’m not, I’m just saying that Putin is doing about the same to Chechnya that Saddam was doing to the Turkish people in Iraq – and because it’s part of the “war against terror” he is with the good guys and it’s out of the question for Bush to question the way Putin is “dealing” with it. I mean, even the dictator of Tadschikistan cab get of after killing hundreds because Bush wants to keep his army base there…
If you want to put a moral blame on others you have to keep out of compromising situations…
I mean no disrespect, but I feel that the USA simply see’s Europe as weak in regard to security. Unfortunately, Europe has often fallen silent over the past few decades on behalf of freedom, democracy and security, choosing instead to outsource this responsibility to the USA. Explain to me why the USA needed to get involved in the Balkens? Your current lashing out at America rings somewhat hollow considering your efforts toward Soviet expansion, 1980’s Afganistan, middle eastern totalitarianism and theocracy, not to mention Europe’s colonialist history and it’s roll in current middle eastern tensions.
As far as the more “advanced parts of the world” such as Switzerland, I’m not sure how the Swiss model of conscription and firearms would work in the USA, but maybe we should give it a try, eh? Sadly, Switzerland’s adherence to neutrality is as shameful as it is admirable. Accordingly, I find it disingenuous to suggest that the USA cannot be trusted and has lost the support of Europe, a suggestion especially difficult to accept from a country with little to zero chance of becoming engaged in world conflicts. Switzerland won’t get involved, but they will be sure to point out everything that those involved are doing wrong. How thoughtful. It was suggested in an earlier post, albeit in a rather juvenile manner, that the USA thinks solely about it’s own interests with no concern for others. Would it be wrong to suggest that Switzerland more accurately fits this description?
You know, I actually enjoyed my time in Europe, including Zurich, and look forward to returning. I’d like to visit Scandinavia in the winter.
Question; if you had to choose between the USA or Syria to be the loan superpower in the world, who would you choose?
I chose not to vote for President Bush last November due in part to the WMD issue, but I make no mistake in assuming radical islamic fascist groups simply hate the USA because we choose to invade Iraq. Perhaps Europe’s proposal for waiting and dialogue would have been best, but allowing millions of people to suffer under brutal dictators for the next 20-30 years doesn’t exactly strike me as humanitarian. Preferable to the brutal devastation of war? I do not know.
“If you want to put a moral blame on others you have to keep out of compromising situations…”
English translation; I’m not going to do anything, but I’m going to criticize anything you try.
Perhaps this is this difference between the USA and Europe and seems to suggest that doing nothing is preferable to taking action. What you see as a moral high ground I see as zero tollerance for uncomfortable situations. How can you reason that sitting on the sideline places you in a morally superior position to criticize others attempting to affect change?
“Bartlett’s is a book of famous quotations – I figured someone who worked so hard to get repartee, intellectual, and argumentative in the same sentence would know that…”
I can see why you’d think those words would require work.