“The logo will change, but the tool is the same. That was the message from Henrico County school officials, who said yesterday that they hope for a smooth transition next year in the switch from Apple iBooks to Dell laptops for all high school teachers and students,” Olympia Meola reports for The Richmond Times-Dispatch.
“Dell Inc. and Apple Computers Inc. were neck and neck until the home stretch, according to school officials. But a combination of factors — including a $4 million price difference — gave Dell the advantage,” Meola reports. “Dell offered the county 15,800 machines at $1,131 a piece compared with Apple’s $1,386 per-unit cost. The four-year, $17.9 million deal with Dell will still push the School Board over budget by about $250,000.”
Meola reports, “Meredyth Hoggatt, a history teacher and selection-committee member, said the move to Dell should be more of a transition than an attempt to reinvent the wheel… Adam Hall, a sophomore at Hermitage High School, said he is pleased with the planned switch to Dell, because it has a better operating system. ‘They’re better than what we have now,’ he said.”
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: Amazing Ignorance Alert! “The logo will change, but the tool is the same.” A Dell with Windows XP “has a better operating system” than they would with Apple’s Mac OS X Tiger.
We’d say that these dolts deserve what they’re going to get for the next four years, except it’s the students and the teachers who will suffer instead of the morons who were snowed by Dell and made this deal without looking past the initial sticker price.
Related MacDailyNews articles:
Henrico school board dumps Apple Macs, picks Dells with Windows – April 29, 2005
PC World review gives Apple’s Mac OS X Tiger 4.5 stars out of 5 – April 30, 2005
Ars Technica: Mac OS X Tiger ‘at least twice as significant as any single past update’ – April 28, 2005
CNET: ‘If you’re tired of Microsoft’s promises, Mac OS X Tiger may be your best incentive to switch’ – April 28, 2005
BusinessWeek: ‘Tiger bolsters Mac OS X’s edge as the best personal-computer operating system around’ – April 28, 2005
Associated Press: Mac OS X Tiger ‘provides another excellent incentive to switch from Windows’ – April 28, 2005
Mossberg: Apple’s Tiger ‘the best, most advanced personal computer operating system on the market’ – April 28, 2005
InformationWeek columnist: Apple’s Mac OS X Tiger ‘a compelling upgrade’ – April 28, 2005
NY Times: Apple’s Mac OS X Tiger is the most secure, stable and satisfying OS on earth – April 28, 2005
Wired News: Apple’s Mac OS X Tiger ‘full of welcome surprises’ – April 27, 2005
Frist
these lost out big time
What’s great is that after the first week of operation, when all the computers have viruses and porn ad on them and after the first year, when tech support has been living at the school fixing the dells, the parents in the school district and the rest of world won’t hear a single peep from the school board about how bad a decision they made.
“Okay kids, time to scan our hard drives for spyware…”
jeez, how much is support going to cost?? and what about liscensing for windows server? or maybe they didn’t run a server before, and just used laptops to internet…either way, totally sucks
and they did this all because of a $55 price difference.
idiots!
The point about needing microsoft office is completely valid. All dells will come with it.
er…make that a $255 price difference. sorry, i was using a Dell.
Typical union speak.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”cool grin” style=”border:0;” />
Vote for vouchers and get this lousy layabout loser union out of our once great education system. Just read some of these comments and the spelling in the same. I would venture a guess that one or two of the posers-sorry- posters, even went to college.
Now watch that price difference slowly, or perhaps quickly, melt away with support cost overhead. So much for educators being visionaries…
School officials said “The logo will change, but the tool is the same.”
Ever wonder why home school kids get the top spots in educational contests, could it be the ignorance of school officials?
Guys, this is the school distric’s web site. It has a link to why they switched to the Dell’s. Man, this is a funny read! They are that stupid!
http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/
HENRICO COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS
HUMAN RESOURCES DEPARTMENT
P.O. BOX 23120
RICHMOND, VA 23223-0420
JOBLINE: (804) 501-5480 We need 200 IT people right away.
FAX: (804) 652-3763 Don’t use this. We’re not sure how to use it yet.
PHONE: (804) 652-3664
TDD: (804) 652-3932 What’s TDD????
Give them a buzz.
Yup, Vincent, very funny read indeed. Here’s the Director of Technology:
“Lloyd Brown, director of technology for Henrico schools, explained the features of the new Dell Inspiron 600M laptop. The screen is 14 inches compared to the iBook’s 12-inch screen. It has two USB ports and a track pad for moving the mouse. The Dells will utilize a Windows XP operating system.
Brown also addressed the question of security — how to prevent students from accessing inappropriate web sites. First of all, he said, “The type of laptop does not have anything to do with security — it’s your filters. Therefore, security will be a challenge with any product.”
Strange, and the iBooks don’t have two USB ports and a track pad? The Dell would utilize outdated technology like Windows XP. They could have had TIGER! But most of all, the type of laptop does not have anything to do with security, just filters! Filters, that’s all Windows users needed all this time. Who’d a thunk it?
This dork doesn’t know the difference between web content blockers and anti-virus/worm software! Sad. Sad.
“The logo will change, but the tool is the same…” They’re about to find out what ‘tools’ they are.
Too bad about the kids. Don’t have much sympathy for the teachers or parents: as adults in this topsy turvy world, they need to be better informed and engaged in the shit that affects their kids and their money.
Come on office …. pay too much for what you can gaet for free neooffice is sweet … even appleworks is better than that junk , i think iWork is almost perfect …. i doubt that those students whill use excell that much ….
Sorry bad english .. I’m brazilian ….
I like this quote:
“The type of laptop does not have anything to do with security.”
Wow, and all along I thought Macs were more secure. I guess I was wrong.
“What’s TDD?”
A Telecommunication Device for the Deaf allows a person to transmit typed messages over the phone lines to another person with a TDD. Most TDD’s include a keyboard for typing messages to send and a display and/or printer to receive messages.
This might not be such a bad thing. There are apparently some Apple fans in Henrico, ones that will keep a close eye on the Dell program. At the end of a certain term, I’m sure an analysis will surface- hopefully unbiased (thanks to the Apple fans in Henrico). This will be a perfect opportunity to compare total outcomes between the two programs. This could be good for Apple (even if they “lose” in the analysis- they would be given an opportunity to learn from mistakes), or it could be GREAT for Apple- they could win in the analysis, and stick a big, fat Cupertino tongue at the naysayers, and at Dell. Personally, I think Apple will win big.
There are plenty of other pilot programs across the country, and Apple is leading the way in many of them. The Henrico Experiment will only enrich Apple’s devotion to such programs.
About the above article, I gotta feel for poor, clueless Adam Hall. To say that XP is better than Panther is, at the very least, a stretch of the imagination (a debate in this is beyond the scope of my note). But compared to Tiger, XP really doesn’t stand a chance. He’s obviously a victim of the Redmond FUD engine….
this was about money, plain and simple. the it guy now has job security. just wait till all their dell get hit by a virus and all the elementary and middle school kid’s ibooks keep chugging along. someone will eat crow.
macvspc.info. Enough said.
ron: Interesting information you’ve provided. To answer your question about TDD, that is a telephone device for the deaf. It allows the deaf to communicate to a person on the other end via live text messaging. In the years before, they used a TTY.
I don’t know if the annotation after the jobline number is a real request or your comment. Assuming that it is a real request, the cost of 200 additional IT people should hover around $6 million annually. That will digest the entire $4 million savings in one year alone. The school district claims to have overshot the budget by $250,000 to get the Dells – wait until they see the IT costs to come. Furthermore, 200 additional people will be sorely insufficient for the needs that will soon clobber that school district. I suppose they figure that the teachers will gladly fill in for needed extra IT personnel.
Unfortunately, this being a public body means that no-one is ever likely to admit a mistake. If the systems end up as 15,800 doorstops, they will harp on about the $4m saving rather than the extra $17.9m it will cost to replace them.
I’m typing this on an iMac DV 400, purchased just after they came out in 1999. It’s running Tiger beautifully at nearly six years old. Do you think those Dells will be still useful at that age?
Rhetorical question. Don’t bother answering.
Obviously the price difference is the cost of Office for Mac versus the free OS and Office from Microsoft to help Dell get the contract. When Dell asks for a bigger maintenance contract in 6 months because they are losing their shirts on the existing one no one will ever hear about it.
Jdoc has posted my exact view. This could be very good news for Apple.
DULL must have nearly burnt themselves to clinch the deal.
If the DULL computers prove to be a virus infested pain it won’t take long to find out. The true cost of ownership will then be exposed.
If Apple prove to be better then the next run off won’t force Apple to burn themselves to clinch the deal. My experience is that long after you’ve forgotten the ticker price saving you will experience the true value of the deal if reliability and useability are proven to be better.
How did they arrive at the figure of $1,386 per iBook? A 12 inch with Combo bases at $949 with the educational discount. And they obviously would get them cheaper than that.
So, an extra $400 in maintenance and software? I doubt that students need the $400 Professional version of Office.
HENRICO COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS
HUMAN RESOURCES DEPARTMENT
P.O. BOX 23120
RICHMOND, VA 23223-0420
JOBLINE: (804) 501-5480 We need 200 IT people right away.
FAX: (804) 652-3763 Don’t use this. We’re not sure how to use it yet.
PHONE: (804) 652-3664
TDD: (804) 652-3932 What’s TDD????
Sorry that I didn’t spell it out for some of you slow guys—-all of the comments after the numbers were my attempt at humor. The comments were supposed to be the School Board asking the questions.
Excuse the attempt. Go back to sleep. Long live Rush. That’ll stir it up.
Maybe they can get the extra 200 IT people when King Bill gets rid of the H1-B visa cap…
Wonder what they are going to do with all the iBooks they currently have????
“Lloyd Brown, director of technology for Henrico schools, explained the features of the new Dell Inspiron 600M laptop. The screen is 14 inches compared to the iBook’s 12-inch screen. It has two USB ports and a track pad for moving the mouse. The Dells will utilize a Windows XP operating system.
A lot of the bad things that I have heard about a Mac relate to most peoples greater familiarity with PCs and XP rather than the that fact that the particular task “cant” be done on Apple. I work in pre-press/print production and graphic design. We have a mostly Apple user base at work although a number of those people are from a PC back ground. The PC users at work whoi dont know how to do something on a Mac think it cant be done when there is no one else who can show them what they need to do.
I think this is also a mentality with a lot of people out there when they have their first Apple experience.
Why do schoolkids need laptops anyway? From ANY company, even Apple. A total waste of taxpayer money. The need current textbooks and good teachers.
But when you have current textbooks and good teachers, laptops can add a lot. It makes things more interactive, which will keep the kids interested in learning instead of dreading school.
‘…Lloyd Brown, director of technology for Henrico schools, explained the features of the new Dell Inspiron 600M laptop (compared to apple ibook)….It has two USB ports and a track pad for moving the mouse….
what the f*ck???
are these people on crack?!
Apple needs its own Office
I hope the news covers the story when the next big virus comes along and brings their network to its knees.
Did the IT director actually say, “track pad for moving the MOUSE”? Hey Lloyd, a track pad moves the cursor. So does a mouse. But one doesn’t move the other.
If their IT people understand neither hardware nor software (see that antivirus vs. content blocker gaffe), they’re getting what they deserve. Let them eat cake.
“I’m typing this on an iMac DV 400, purchased just after they came out in 1999. It’s running Tiger beautifully at nearly six years old. Do you think those Dells will be still useful at that age?”
Beautifully? Really? I highly doubt that. We installed Tiger on an eMac 700 (3 years old) last night and it was quite painstankingly slow.
And if this means anything we have a Dell Optiplex at work (550 P3) that is around 6 years old and it runs XP quite well.
Dell fineprint:
Please note that our advertised price does not include delivery or state taxes – $100 extra. Monitor not included – $100 extra. Windows XP Home edition is shown for display purposes only – Dell recommends Windows XP Professional for $150 extra. Dell 3 year warranty excludes educational purchases. Thank you for purchasing Dell.
[This is a joke]
These guys spout so many made up “facts” and distorted half-truths. I smell a rat. None of their justifications demonstrate any objectivity.
At the bare minimum, someone influential on the committee has a bias to WinDells. At worst… someone(s) are getting a kickback.
The parents should be calling for an investigation.
“they hope for a smooth transition next year”
Hope, is most often posponed dissapointment.
chrish:
did you forget that you and all the other mac users only make up 2% of the market, or in your delusional world does everyone use a mac and those who don’t are outside the norm? since when was making a decision because it costs less a bad one, ESPECIALLY when most of our governments are running gigantic deficits. is it just all of you idiots, or has the whole economy thrown out simple economics?
and those of you who claim that people who use PCs spend their whole lives dealing with viruses are simply put, IDIOTS! Like there is no word to describe how big of an idiot you are. If you dont’ spend your whole lives downloading internet porn like most of you probably do, or even if you do, and you AREN’T an idiot, then YOU DON’T GET VIRUSES.
oh and another pet peeve: stop blaming all your idiocy on using a dell. every time you make a simple mental math error, like John did earlier, don’t blame it on your computer. even if it was the computer’s fault, and it somehow sabotaged your decision to type 255 by replacing it with 55, any person who was NOT an idiot would realize that before submitting and change it.
The day the mac community returns to reality will be the day the sky falls.
It was about the money, they didn’t allocate enough funds to buy decent kit.. Not that it was all rosy with the iBooks, don’t forget Henrico got plenty of iBooks with duff motherboards. Do Dell laptops last for four years?
They probably paid for Apple for Virex in the iBook program (doesn’t every govt-linked tech person say best be safe) and think that’s what saved them – Dells have anti-virus software too, and more variety.
The unnamed writer of the article doesn’t seem very tech savvy and may well have misconstrued meanings and responses. Sure sounds like Apple suggested save money by not licensing Office and they didn’t like that, it is office that created MS’s monopoly, not Windows.
“They hope for a smooth transition…”
And I hope that I’ll wake up tomorrow and look like George Clooney!
The difference is that I know that I’ll be disappointed.
bisabuelo:
Do you think that blanket market numbers equal installed user base numbers? Is this part of your “simple economics”?
I used to do education sales and I would bet the RFP included Office to give dull the advantage. I’ve helped write RFPs to guide the selection process.
biggieG said “Beautifully? Really? I highly doubt that. We installed Tiger on an eMac 700 (3 years old) last night and it was quite painstankingly slow. “
How much memory does your eMac have?
“Adam Hall, a sophomore at Hermitage High School, said he is pleased with the planned switch to Dell, because it has a better operating system.
‘They’re better than what we have now,’ he said.”
Translation from teen speak: Hacking at Windows allows me and my friends to get at porn sites which we can’t do on Apple computers. The bigger screen size allows us to see porn better. Plus there are more games for Windows. Thank goodness the school board is clueless about technology.
I thought Paul Thurrott was the last person in the world who thought Windows was better than Mac OS. And even he’s starting to waver.
Those poor kids ain’t gonna know what they’re missing with Tiger. And all because of the prejudices of one or a few persons …
What are the hardware requirements going to be for “LongWait”?
You can thank the union movement to the end of (in western nations anyway) child labour, unsafe working conditions, a living wage, holiday leave, sick leave, compassionate leave, penalty rates for overtime and public holidays, protection from unfair dismissal, etc, etc, etc….
That’s not to say they don’t stuff up from time to time, or get silly ideas in their collective heads, but on the whole they do their best to protect the interests ordinary workers from the excesses of capitalism and intrusive government.
Proudly a union member ( http://www.RTBU.com.au ).
Artisiculated:
If not, what is the user base then, since you seem to be omniscient? Until shows me some data otherwise, that’s what I have to go off of. The other figure I’ve heard is 1 of every 33 computer users. Is that better?
BB: “If you dont’ spend your whole lives downloading internet porn like most of you probably do, or even if you do, and you AREN’T an idiot, then YOU DON’T GET VIRUSES.”
If you think that is the only way to get a virus, YOU are an idiot. Wake the f up.
Teen: I want to webcam with MSN messenger.. You mean I can’t do that on my Mac … Hey Mom Hey Dad! This Mac Sucks!!!
I want a PC it’s got a better operating system!
OH MAN,
What a big mistake, hope they they got lot’s of body bags. Cause I work for Dell and what goes on in the plant and in the their products really suck bad. I feel real bad making the junk, but it a pay check.And now they is buying WHAT 15,800. Sound like future congressmen and ladies. Oh the country is in trouble now. You plant bad seeds, you weeds
Surely families which want an Apple Mac will still be able to go out buy one?? Why is this a really “the sky is falling” type of problem?
I feel sorry for those who felt and/or know that Macs are better – they’re the one’s who’ll be frustrated over the next few years.
bisabuelo:
Don’t need do do your research for you. No need for omnicience, just the ability to know the difference between two different metrics. Equating overall market share to installed user base in computer OSes is kinda like equating octane to volume in your gas tank. Sorta related but don’t confuse them.
I know it’s a weak analogy, don’t get hung up on it
that’s enough from me.
Off topic, sort of . . . I just installed Tiger onto my iBook 800 w/ 640 MB of RAM — upgraded existing Panter without any problems.
Tiger networking and copying from a Tiger to Tiger equipped machine is faster — Safari is faster — everything is as fast as Panther — perhaps a bit faster.
The only annoyance is that Spotlight is still indexing my drive, several hours later, and causes temporary pauses and spinning beach balls when trying to do some things — Spotlight indexing will get out of your way, if it senses that you are using the computer, and there will be no slowdowns or beach balls — but if it senses that you are not using the Mac, it starts up its indexing process — be glad when it is done.
My iBook should be the same one that the school system has, except with more RAM. It is STILL perfectly usable for general purposes, except video or iDVD activities.
” A Dell with Windows XP “has a better operating system”
Michael Dell is gonna be scratchin’ his head over that one for a while..
Dell, HP, and Sony are probably annoyed with MS these days to be running such an outdated, buggy, swiss-cheese OS.. Which is a why a few of them have been sending roses to Steve Jobs, with an OS proposal…
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
It is obvious to see how dependant people think they are on Office. Example:
I’m in grade 11 and bought a Mac. I’ve used iPhoto and the like to create slideshows, DVDs, movies, etc. Simple and easy to use.
I was asked to MC the grade 12’s graduation this year and figured I could help out with the slideshow they usually do. Perfect! I could drop all the photos into iPhoto, hit Slideshow, burn in iDVD, and sell it. And it would look incredible (anyone who’s ever used the combo know what I mean).
Well, I got the royal screwjob and “The Man” says they’re going to do the whole slideshow in (get this!)…. PowerPoint. Yes, read that again. PowerPoint. And they’re showing me how much they’ve worked so far on: “3 hours of work and we got 5 students done!” They have 25 kids graduating this year. Anybody who’s had to do a presentation in PowerPoint knows how long it can take, and how horrid the outcome is. Now compare that to iPhoto.
Then they want to burn it to a CD and sell it. Ouch. This means they’re gonna force people to huddle around their ugly, 15″ monitor and click through a PowerPoint presentation, while they sit at their desk. That is, if they have PowerPoint installed. This cuts out many of the people I know who are graduating who don’t have Office, and people who don’t have a computer. That is not entertainment.
With iPhoto I can burn a great looking slideshow to DVD, and let people watch it on their couch. That is entertainment.
The reason “The Man” said we couldn’t do it in iPhoto is because it wasn’t compatible with Office. Simply amazing…
To The Dark Side of the Moon,
That just goes to show how ignorant (and brainwashed) when it comes to technology and Microsoft.
Macintosh PC
Total Laptops 15,800 15,800
21,898,800 17,800,000
per unit 1,386.00 1,126.58
difference 259.42 Mac is more expensive purchase price.
We’ll call this the “Mac Premium”.
difference over 4 years 64.85 Mac Premium per year for each of 4 years
Question 1: Does the support-cost differential exceed the Mac Premium?
ie: how many extra support calls per year for the PC, and
at what cost per call?
Question 2: Is the software included on the Mac worth $259.42?
How about in terms of the exciting multimedia-based
educational opportunities (both in terms of delivery of
curriculum materials and student-created content)?
In other words, is the educational opportunity worth the
Mac Premium? This might not be a linear calculation.
Help fixing the question/calculation, please.
Question 3: What happens when you combine Question1 and Question2.
Question 4: Can the software included on the Mac (or similarly-capable
software be acquired for the P? If so, at what cost?
——-
MW: “them” As in, well, you fill in the blank…”
Adam Hall, a sophomore at Hermitage High School, said he is pleased with the planned switch to Dell, because it has a better operating system.
In his wildest dreams!
Bisabuelo:
Marketshare is a touchy subject among the players in the computer market (Dell, HP, Apple, etc). However, let me take a different perspective. Since we’re talking about the education market, let me offer this tidbit: Apple’s marketshare is more like 20-30% in the education market (exact figures, no. But much more than the 2% ‘total’ market).
Having said that, the Wintel makers have little to nothing to offer these kids that Apple doesn’t have. In fact, Apple has more ‘solutions’ geared towards the education market than the wintel crowd- iLife suite, Powerschool, etc. Throw on top of that a MUCH more secure, and VIRUS FREE environment (ergo the whole ‘how does one IDIOT acquire a virus’ argument becomes moot).
The article above offers no hint at any real advantages that the Dell solution has over Apple (cost is measured in TCO, not just initial costs. We’ll find out more about the TCO of the Dell solution in about 4 years, then compare it to the Apple solution which has just been discontinued. Only then can we discuss cost in a reasonable forum). It offers more FUD arguments (‘scroll pad’, ‘better OS’, etc), with no real tangible advantages, except Word compatibility. This is a sad state of affairs- that entire industries make long-term, expensive decisions based on things like .doc compatibility. Word is a word processor, just like any other (Pages, Staroffice, Wordperfect, etc). People happen to be stuck with Word simply because MS created this proprietary format. Problem is, the competitors don’t stand a chance because of:
1. The buying mentality of institutions as described above
2. The bundling of the software at either a VERY reduced price, or free (hints of the Netscape war all over again). Dell charges the ‘normal’ price for MS Office on their website, but for this deal, it happens to be dramatically reduced. An unfair advantage, indeed.
Unfortunately for everyone, this is NOT good for the marketplace as a whole. All the rest of us are paying for this discount, and innovation is stifled in the meantime. Dell and MS have the $$$$ to take small hits like this, and MS has abused its monopoly in this manner in the past (this is part of the reason that MS should have been broken up, but I digress. Remember, it’s NOT illegal to have a monopoly. It IS illegal to abuse monopoly power). If you can’t see why this is NOT GOOD, then I can’t help you any further.
Back to Apple. They provide excellent, well-built hardware, a stable, modern, robust, safe OS, and software that’s second to none. TCO has been proven over and over again to favor Apple. Where’s the Wintel advantage?
“The logo will change, but the FOOL is the same!”
So Dells are a bit cheaper than Apples but, as John Ruskin said: “There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man’s lawful prey.”
It sounds like they had motherboard burnout problems with the iBooks. The same happened to my iBook. Apple was terrific about fixing mine, but it is not difficult to imagine that this was a significant pain for such a large laptop deployment.
Hopefully such problems are behind Apple now.
I wonder how much this had to do with the decision…
As per NetCraft:
OS, Web Server and Hosting History for http://www.henrico.k12.va.us
http://www.henrico.k12.va.us was running Microsoft-IIS on Windows 2000 (Verizon Internet Services)
when last queried at 1-May-2005 10:28:59 GMT
Windows servers and Windows Laptops== virus writers having a FIELD DAY !! (or the magic word party for this post)
If there there is no virus/worm/spyware outbreak in this system, that can only mean one thing… a cover-up
… not speeking how ugly the Dell laptops are to look at …
At the end of the day the decision came down to money. nothing else. Dells are cheap and nasty
Maybe they’re using OS 9
bisabuelo:
My friend has a daughter in college with a 2 year old Compaq laptop running XP – I found 2,500 instances of spyware and 72 viruses. And they were not from porn sites either.
I have a daughter who has been in college for 2 years, and her G3 iBook has had 0 viruses and 0 spyware in those 2 years.
And she can do everything, and more, than any kid there with their Windows PC’s – especially when the IT department goes around warning about the latest virus some student brought into the network.
And that, my dear bisabuelo, is THE REALITY.
“The logo will change, but the tool is the same. I’m sorry but you school officials are in for a very bad reality check. The Mac operating system and iBook hardware are no where near the same. The Macs just work but PC’s need constant repairs and tweaks mainly because they are being attacked by viruses, spyware, trojans, and hackers. I speak with experience since I do this kind of work everyday for the past 10 years as a corporate desktop support technician. I’ve worked with both PC’s and Macs and the Macs are way more secure with OSX and cannot be attacked nearly as easily as the current Windows systems.
Sure Dell can out price Apple in the initial sale, but watch out when you need to get all those PC’s cleaned because they all got viruses that crash the applications you use or the OS itself. The teachers will suffer and the students will suffer but obviously you didn’t think about that when you made your decision to save a few bucks in the initial sale.
Now you will have classes that will not be able to function because the teacher won’t be able to teach what was on the schedule for that day. She will have to teach how to get rid of that spyware or virus of the day. And that’s if the teacher is really knowledgable about computers.
Good luck with that 3rd world scripted support as well. You will have teachers on the phone for 2 and 3 hours with there support and they will be no help.
So count your cash because your going to have to spend it on lots and lots of tech support to fix everything.
Qman:
What i’m saying is, if your daughter actually knew what she was doing, she wouldn’t get any of that crap. I’ve had my Dell running for almost 3 years now (I too am in college), and not once have I received a virus or spyware. If you protect yourself well and use common sense, it really is quite easy to avoid viruses and spyware. Sure, you don’t have to protect yoruself with OSX, but that’s just nature of being #1…by A LOT.
bisabuelo:
It’s my friend’s daughter (the one with XP) with the problems not mine. My daughter laughs at her PC using friends when they are disrupted with a virus or spyware and can’t use the college network. (Do you remember Blaster?)
And yes, I also have a Windows XP PC at home, with hardware and software to “protect” it from all that crap. But I don’t think that is anything to boast about. In fact, it’s a sad state on how lousy Microsoft’s OS’ are.
Which to me, is the main point of all this – Microsoft allows it operating system to be sold on crappy $300 eMachines you can buy at Walmart. Or, if that’s too much, you can go to your local flea market and buy a used system for $125. Great, you can save money, but you still have a lousy operating system you HAVE to supplement with extra hardware and software to guard against all the internet has to offer.
Why should we, as consumers, have to put up with that? I have a Windows XP Upgrade box in my hand – NOWHERE does it mention anything about guarding against viruses, spyware, email attachments, and so on. If Bill Gates would admit they screwed up, instead of blaming everything and everybody else, I might respect him. For a quick second anyway.
Using my Mac is a joy. I don’t have to bother with any of that bullshit, and I can do more with it than I can with my XP.
I also don’t believe in that “well, since they have over 90% of the market, of course they are the best, and of course they are gong to get attacked.” Windows is inherently more insecure than OS X. That’s a fact.
You don’t believe that WalMart is the best store just because they’re number one do you? If you want cheap stuff, you go there. If you want cheap PC’s, you use Microsoft.
qman:
Microsoft’s decision to allow “anyone” to use their OS on any platform was the smartest decision Gates and co. have made. Apple’s decision to remain exclusive is what put it in the shithole until the ipod came along. Let’s face it: not everyone can afford a 2000-3000 computer. There is nothing wrong with offering cheap options. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.
When you refer to “hardware” to protect yourself, I’m sure as to what you are referring to. A physical firewall? If so, there is no need to use a physical firewall outside the corporate environment. There are plenty of FREE software solutions. AVG antivirus, which I use and believe is far better than any of the cost based solutions, adaware and spybot for spyware, zonealarm or now the built in windows firewall for firewall protection. Implementing any or all of those solutions protects you against 99% of intrusions without costing a penny.
Next, how did Gates screw up? It’s hard to call a man worth almost 100 billion dollars a screwup. A man that gets fired from his own company, now that could be considered a screwup. Yes, his company has made mistakes. IE is a piece of crap when compared to firefox. XP has bugs and vulnerabilities. But with SP2, you will find, that from unbiased users, there are relatively few complaints. It’s a continuous process to stay ahead of hackers. No OS will ever be 100% secure, not even your precious OSX Tiger. Anyone who argues that OSX is impenetrable is naive. If they can get past the mounds of security in front of many government and corporate servers that don’t even run Windows, you better believe they can get past OSX on your iMac sitting in your living room. It’s just a matter of simple economies of scale. Attacking Windows users produces the most results for the least amount of effort, so why not go with that?
Speaking of tiger being buggy, most unbiased sources will tell you that tiger is a buggy, unfinished, and rushed product. The fact Apple started working 10.4.1 before tiger was even released to the public should speak for itself. Apple announed a first half 2005 release date, and they stuck to it at the expense of polish. OSX is not perfect as much you would like to think it is.
Now through the course of all my posts, I have never said that Microsoft is the best as you seem to think I have. I am just arguing that touting Apple as perfect and Microsoft as crap is just a tad presumtptious. Both have their advantages, both have their disadvantages.
these guys have been using Macs until recently? and now want to switch back to Windows XP Service Pack 2 and Dells??
just what did those people from Dell tell them?
“Awww, c’mon! We’re cheaper and you’ll get used to the malware! Besides, if you wait about 18 months (give or take a quarter) you can BUY Longhorn and then your computers’ll be almost as good as your Macs were 2 years ago!”
…they are in for one helluva asswhuppin’. just wait until those PC get crammed full o’ spyware and adware.
“I have never said that Microsoft is the best as you seem to think I have. I am just arguing that touting Apple as perfect and Microsoft as crap is just a tad presumtptious. Both have their advantages, both have their disadvantages.”
true dat. no one can really argue with this. i mean, you could, but the man has a valid point. the only thing i can offer by way of rebuttal is this… go to this site:
http://ciac.org/ciac/bulletinsByType/bul_vendor_list.html
in the Vendors section click on Apple Computer (Macintosh) in . scroll through the list. take a look at the dates and make a mental note of how long the list is. then go to the Microsoft section and do the same.
the list notes both known weaknesses and viruses for a variety of platforms. my point? well, in short, Windows gots a lotta “disadvantages” and more are being found or created as i type.
in this instance, Mac OS is far and away, without a doubt the lesser of two evils.
To Stiffnipples-sorry-NiffStipples, your comment was great, especially the bit about the “panter.” ‘Goes with your name.
“Off topic, sort of . . . I just installed Tiger onto my iBook 800 w/ 640 MB of RAM — upgraded existing Panter without any problems.”
bisabuelo wrote: “Speaking of tiger being buggy, most unbiased sources will tell you that tiger is a buggy, unfinished, and rushed product. The fact Apple started working 10.4.1 before tiger was even released to the public should speak for itself. Apple announed a first half 2005 release date, and they stuck to it at the expense of polish”
Could you give us a clue as to where these “unbiased sources” are? The most thorough review that I’ve ever seen of an OS was by John Siracusa at http://www.arstechnica.com on Tiger. Take a look at it, you might learn a few things about how substantial an upgrade this really is, and how it pretty much paves the way for Apple to lead the rest of the industry for the next decade or so.
As for 10.4.1, I’m sure they started that a while ago- that’s just good engineering and dedication. Nothin’ wrong with that at all.
Bill Gates caught the technology community off guard, as is the case most of the time when a monopoly as large as MS was built up so quickly. Basically, people were clueless (and many still are) about what computers really are. Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, and as such has been personally as successful as you can get. The rest of the industry, and especially consumers, suffer as a result. Overall, IMO, MS has NOT been successful for the tech community at all.
I do not know this for certain, but the Henrico project was running Mac OS 9 previously. I could certinaly understand why they might think XP is better. Heck, Win2k is more stable!
Now, after 4 years of dealing with OS 9 and four years of not having to deal with viruses, malware, etc., it might be easier to succumb to the Dell message of XP security and stability. Henrico may not have the mass experience of dealing with OS X and it’s current cutting edge stability, productivity, and (especially) security.
Henrico got played, and played well. As so many of you have commented already, they may not have a clue as to what to expect – either from OS X 10.4 (in a positive way) or XP (in the secutiry and maintence realm).
Personally, I think the whole project is a waste of taxpayer money. They should spend it on attracting and keeping better teachers, not ephemeral technology. I know I remember and appreciate the teachers that reached me, not what kind of computers we had or multimedia that was shown. A good teacher doesn’t require this stuff, the crummy ones use whatever they can for a crutch.
I just decided to scan my XP box for spyware, since I’ve been slumming the web for about 3 or 4 months now without any a/v protection, a/s protection, etc. I didn’t find anything.
“Look kids, it may look like a rock with pretty drawings on it, but it’s really a high tech computing device. Trust us, we grew up on these things and we came out just fine. We use them all the time. You won’t even notice the difference. Just ignore all the hundreds of new, high-paid technicians that will be constantly at your side to fix your new rock, err…computer.
jdoc:
looks like a pretty in depth review you pointed to. From the parts I read, it looks like he has great things to say. Unfortunately, I don’t have time to read it all the way through. The article I was referring to was actually at http://www.anandtech.com which MDN just recently posted on the main page. Another great review with lots of praise, but he manages to not get blinded by apple marketing and gimmicks to see a few flaws. That’s all I’m saying.
It’s possible for a Windows machine to be “safe”. If it’s not connected to the Internet and the user never shares files with anyone else. Sure it can be virus/spy/adware-free.
As I meant to add in my previous post –
…Henrico may not have the mass experience of dealing with OS X and it’s current cutting edge stability, productivity, and (especially) security [including parental controls]…
But Henrico certainly does not have the negative experience dealing with Windows and its related support issues, only the (presumabley) bad experience with OS 9. I guess that’s about to change!
My presumption of OS 9 was incorrect – it is “X.2.6”
You can read directly from Henrico County’s website:
http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/Announcements/Dell/index.htm
http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/iBook/
There are details about the Dell laptop:(http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/inspn_600m?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs)
No details about what Apple proposed this time.
The Henrico quote about the bigger screen is off base – the Dell screen offers 1024/768 resolution. The same number of pixels as both of the iBook displays. Hey, at least you get a bigger computer….
One big thing in Dell’s favor was the usage of MS Office. Perhaps Apple decided to stay with AppleWorks and not ammend the proposal to include Office? Or did Apple get forced to include Office and the “larger” screen and consequently get priced out?
I am a student at Henrico county and have had an iBook for three years. Before receiving it, I was readily exposed to large apple computer labs and other apple software. My experience with apples is comparable to that of PCs. I am incredibly exited that I will be supplied with a Dell computer next year.
The vast majority of the people leaving posts on this website seem to be loyal Mac users, and not any person who has had experience with the HCPS iBook initiative. The “help! desk” as it is called is always swarmed with too many problems. Besides broken latches, CD drives, cracked screens, and other damages directly related to the iBooks fragile nature are software meltdowns. Too many of my friends (and myself) have had terrible hardware crashes and other problems caused by a lack of training. An extraordinarily high majority of students (and teachers) in my county have home computers that run on windows based operating systems. Simply put, we understand how to run the Dells. Although the school system attempted to train us on the use of the iBooks, nothing compares to what you are used to and have years of experience with. I went through a semester of training on a class set of iBooks, yet I was handed an iBook without sufficient knowledge of how to operate the iBook. We were basically given a computer and expected to figure out how to use it. On top of all of this, an extremely limited number of loaner iBooks (if any) are available for use while our iBooks are out for repair (as they usually are). Dell has promised to provide us with a larger supply. Ultimately the Dells will be the best for the Henrico county public school students and teachers. I hope that each and every person who stumbles upon this will be able to look beyond his or her narrow views of maces and realize that this switch will be the best for us, the people affected by this important decision. (by the way– if you are going to leave me comments saying that I have a close mind based on my age, please refrain from doing so. I am a student in the International Baccalaureate Program and have an opinion with much more valid perspective than the majority of those viewing this comment will.)
alright all you mac people out there. hi im devin i live in henrico county ok i go to deep run high and have been using the ibook for a very long time, it is a pain in the !!@# ok. it breaks all the time hard drive screan blah balh it goes on, and it comes out of my pocket. its ridiculous. apple may have a nice os but they need to get there ibooks together and there emacs. we use those 2. alright i am a pc and mac user and my pc has inevidably crashed due to viruses thats all my mac has crashed for ummm everything else. see my point im not saying macs are bad i own a ipod like eveyone else in my school cause every one is rich pretty much. so anyway the dells will be nice we need a change we have had way way to many problems with the ibooks and were sick of it. not to say that money wasant and issue but its not like were just turning on apple we have been with them forever, we were the first and largest to ever pull this off. and were still doing it for the elemtry and middle school kids thats whats gonna happen to all our old ibooks. and it doesant come out of the tax payers dollar to answer some of your questions. so its not really our parents probem if it becomes one which im sure viruses will, but it comes with the territory,. as for all of you who think that were all looking at porn are you friken crazy they have blck after blck its like impossable plus are you really that queer to look at it on your ibook we all have home computers, i have a 2000 dollar toshiba laptop i got a few months ago and a couple days ago my parental units lol just bought a brand new dell and my mom has laptops even my little brother has a computer in his room. so its not that big of a deal i mean my school is so rich the student parking lot is filled with porshes vetts lexuses benzes rovers you name it we got it, and the houses dont get me started i live right next to a house bigger that 50 cents on cribs. its ridicoulous. sorry if im bragging to all you people who were making fun of my county cause i am really not like this, but as far as you narrow minded people its all true and your little ibooks with there falling apart parts you can collect them at the mac for parts place in a couple years cause thats were there a goin. so you need to just deal cause it isant your problem.
omg, everything that “anonymous henrico stuedent” said is completely true. deep run is filthy rich, and so are a lot of the other schools in our county. noone hears all the times that people don’t do stupid things on their ibooks, only when they do. i can assure you that a majority of the people are so scared to screw up their ibook that they only use it when absolutely necessary. our ibooks crash all the time, physically break, have software screwups, etc… and i know that there will obviously be problems with the dells… but ANYTHING is better than the pieces of crap that they give us now.
How much will it cost the school to pay for a virus, or whatever those guys catch?
Alright all you Macintosh fanboys. First off, I think that Apple along with all of its products suck, but I will try to leave my own personal bias out of this.
I am a junior at Douglas S. Freeman High, and I have had an iBook for three years. First off, I am sure this isn’t a concern with most of their products, but the shoddy construction of the iBooks was astounding. I worked at the help desk and we would place bets on how many people would come in for broken backlights, broken mousepads, broken whatevers! Secondly, the iBooks were notoriously unreliable. All of my teachers warned my classes against keeping anything on the iBooks, and not realizing how bad the iBooks truly were, I took no precautions except to backup to the school server.
Right before a large test, I opened my iBook and to my surprise, every single document had corrupted. I depsperatley checked the server, and GASP, those files were corrupted too!
Finally, enough with the “Get a Windows computer and it will have tons of viri and spyware before you even take it out of the box” crap. Yes, there are more viri for Windows, but since you don’t download much on a school laptop, that isn’t a concern. Seconly, people are just as apt to search porn on a windows computer than a mac.
So finally, stop being such elitist bastards. Wake up and smell the roses, macintosh will never surpass windows in anything except fanboys.
By the way, check these out, you might find them interesting:
LinkLinkLink
Sorry, that last link is
Link