With President Trump’s tariffs, tech investors in Apple, other stocks are now in the crosshairs of trade war

“It’s clear from Trump’s post-tax-cut shift to correcting imbalances in global trade — something Trump has cared about for a lot longer and with a lot more passion than tax policy — that an evolving definition of national security is a geopolitical and stock market risk,” Eric Rosenbaum reports for CNBC. “The real threat from the new metals tariffs is that a broader, global trade war would have unintended and unpredictable consequences. And in the stock market context, a national security-defined trade war could be more significant — and harder to account for — in the market’s best and most widely invested sector: technology.”

“The damage could be much bigger than the ’rounding error’ within Apple earnings from the steel and aluminum trade penalties,” Rosenbaum reports. “Intel chiefs have long warned about Chinese telecom company ZTE and its telecom infrastructure equipment. The U.S. government has also long referred to Huawei as ‘effectively an arm of the Chinese government’ …But the warnings previously had not been taken to the level of the smartphone itself, which puts this national security dust-up squarely in the sweet spot of the market’s most beloved stock, and a stock whose fortunes are increasingly tied to sales in China: Apple.”

“Many China analysts believe it’s the Chinese government that has had this coming, because when it comes to technology, China’s own practices reflect the broader claims about ‘unfair’ trade policies,” Rosenbaum reports. “Scott Kennedy, deputy director at the Center for Strategic and International Studies… does not think Apple is a good target for the Chinese because Foxconn City in Shenzhen, China employs up to 400,000 people (though exact numbers are hard to get) and is supported by the Chinese government, and is possibly the largest factory in the history of the world. There’s U.S. geography to consider as well. Foxconn has started construction on a large plant in Wisconsin, since Trump was elected. Punishing Apple may not make much sense either… Derek Scissors, American Enterprise Institute resident scholar and China expert, said he also believes Apple’s contractor in China employs too many Chinese citizens for the tech giant to be a direct target.”

Tons more in the full article – recommendedhere.

MacDailyNews Take: With so many moving parts, we’ll have to wait to see how it all shakes out.

Analyst: President Trump’s tariff impact on Apple would be just a ’rounding error’ – March 7, 2018
Apple and other tech firms caught in crossfire as U.S.-China trade war looms – March 7, 2018
Apple Macs caught up in President Trump’s aluminum tariff plan – March 2, 2018


  1. I’m waiting to see the response from the World Trade Organization (WTO) as the issue evolves, changes daily. Mind you bringing up the issue of steel and aluminum as a security issue is an expected step for such an insecure country.

      1. Certainly seems to be a good idea to revitalize the industry though I can imagine other incentives that would also be beneficial. Your point is well noted TowerTone, I’m more interested in what the heaven is going on.

      2. You’re right. A liberal from a deadbeat nation has NO clue and does not have any moral authority to lecture another nation, the most generous carrying other deadbeat nations, as well.

        This problem was created by liberals and the Democratic Party going back to Clinton.

        President Trump is once again fearlessly stepping up to the plate, in many areas, to clean up the mess they left behind ..

        1. is always from above, looking downward on people with whom he actually shares terra firma. (Shhh, he doesn’t know, or what to admit that. His wisdom is supreme, you know.)

          1. “The Gospel according to Road Warrior! God speaks to Road Warrior and Road Warrior tells the world! Road Warrior, Road Warrior, Road Warrior, Almighty!”

            1. In binary mode that makes a pretty clear indication of who speaks to you botty.
              One side has a bunch of deadbeat countries that don’t pay their dues, the other side a war mongering country that adds way more than it should.

              In the middle is Poland, right on the dot. Leading the way to finding that right target. Should be an inspiration and guidance to all, by 2024.

              Now about your comment on the topic at hand. Oh you didn’t make any. Better luck next time.

            2. Thanks botvinnik, tough crowd to get compliments from. At any rate, on the topic, I do hope that what ever measures do get your country’s steel industry to a level you want it at. Your country used to have a wonderful reputation for steel, would be nice to see you regain it.

          2. It’s a question of perspective and a correction, I’m looking up to the heavens for inspiration, but still on terra firma.

            I simply stated that I’m interested in seeing the reaction from the World Trade Center on this issue.

    1. So, TT, the next time that your youngster throws a temper tantrum, then refers to it as a “negotiation strategy” for a new toy, you will clap for joy at how week it works. What a precocious child!

      Trump believes what he wants to believe and listens to people that stroke his ego, plain and simple. He is a hedonist rules by his gut and enabled by the greedy sycophants who make excuses for him or, far worse, praise his fickleness and lack of depth, character, and substance as “genius” misdirection.

      Trump is only loyal to Trump and his immediate family, with the caveat that if it comes down to a decision between saving himself and anyone else, Trump comes first.

      In Trump world, America is not first. The Donald always comes first.

    2. Established agreements can’t simply be renegotiated at the insistence of one party. If agreements can be summarily torn up, then what is the point of making further agreements?

      Trust is a fundamental principle underwriting international dealings. You squander trust at your peril.

      China hasn’t revealed it’s hand yet in response to these tariffs. Only a fool would underestimate China these days. If China decides to play nasty, things will become very unpleasant for America.

      It’s also important to bear in mind that China is adept at executing long term plans and president Xi Jinping has just been declared to be a de facto president for life. He can now make make long term plans in the near certain knowledge that he will be around to see them to fruition. Western leaders mostly only stay in power for a few years at a time and then get replaced, often by people with dramatically different ideas. Western countries first lurch one way and then in quite a different direction, which is obviously massively less effective than having a long term leader with a clear vision of where they are heading and the resources to make it happen.

  2. CNBC, lets make an article that contains lots of info of what they “think: will happen, doesn’t matter they really don’t know and it doesn’t matter that they are probably wrong more than their right, just need something to generate hits on the web site..

  3. Before democrat jackass Woodrow Wilson’s advent of the Federal Reserve and its whore sister, the Federal Income Tax, from 1789 until 1913, the federal government was financed primarily by tariffs, this had two wonderful results:
    • Limited federal government size.
    • Protected American industry and American labor.

      1. The Muslim Stench is going into the movie business on Netflix, the internet has responded…


        “Make Choom For Daddy”

        “Kenya See Me Now?”

        “Ganja With The Wind”

    1. How positively clueless!

      If you look at historical data and compare the countries with tariff protection with those without, you would notice how all the countries of the old Soviet bloc had massive tariffs and duties in place for all foreign goods, meant strictly to protect domestic industry and domestic labour. The end result was that the industry was woefully noncompetitive and far behind the rest of the world, as there was really no reason to compete with them — their only competition was internal. And with same protections from outside, nobody had any motivation to innovate much.

      America became an economic and industrial superpower once it killed its tariffs and opened its markets to the world. Had Toyota been prevented from entering the American car market, Studebaker would have likely continued to make their cars.

      If you look at the innovation coming out of a country and plot it against the protectionist policies (such as tariffs, duties, domestic production subsidies and all other anti-market government interventions), they are always inversly proportionate to the level of innovation; the more protectionist policies a country has, the less innovation (and economic growth) there is.

      This all makes perfect sense; what doesn’t make sense is that it is now Republicans that want protectionist policies, with labor organisations now cheering!! Next thing, they will start demanding for stronger labour agreements, social protection, single-payer health system and stronger social security plans..!

      1. Tricky Dick….you seem to think I am a republican, I am not. However, 2016 was the first time since Reagan I got to vote for a candidate that wasn’t “the lesser of two evils.”

        PS: Rand Paul is writing legislation to audit the Fed, to audit it is the first step in abolishing it. I don’t think Trump will take the Fed on until after his re-election. He knows that the last guy who tried it got his brains blown out in his wife’s face. (United States Note of June 1963)

  4. I can’t possibly see how are these tariffs beneficial for America. In order to protect (or re-create) some 30,000 jobs in that “rust belt” (where Trump already has full support anyway, so politically has no need to make favours), America is now willing to lose up to 200,000 jobs in sectors that rely on cheap steel and aluminium from overseas, and which will now be at least 10% more expensive, and this is in industries selling on razor-thin margins, where 10% increase in cost of raw material can send you to bankruptcy.

    More importantly, China. Very few in Trump’s cabinet seem to be able to explain to Trump how serious a threat China can be. There is a fundamental difference between China and all other comparably large economic powers. While the others are western democracies, where all economic decisions are also political, forcing those in power to be careful when making international moves that could potentially hurt local economy for a short-to-medium period of time, China has the luxury of a single-party dictatorship, where the chairman just promulgated a law that allows him to run for unlimited number of terms in office. Chinese president Xi can make any decision he deems necessary to protect Chinese economic dominance, or to punish others, without fearing political consequences.

    With the continued economic strength and trade imbalance with America, China now has America’s testicles in its firm grip and is ready to squeeze at any moment.

    There is only one possible relief for USA in this scenario, and that is a significant Chinese economic slowdown. One-Child policy, in place over the past 40 years or so, has resulted in an increasingly lopsided generational distribution, with every young couple aged 30 now supporting four parents and eight grandparents (twelve elderly adults receiving retirement benefits, supported by only two working adults), with no siblings to share that support. As the two previous generations age into retirement and health issues, Chinese economy will start feeling the results of the one-child policy. If China doesn’t manage to do something significant and radical to alleviate this issue, this will be the one thing that can hamper their heretofore unstoppable economic growth.

    1. The only problem is, the world will have to wait for another 10 – 20 years before China begins to seriously feel the consequences of this generational imbalance. Until then, they will have grown to become the strongest world economic power (by a significant margin, no less), and it will be China deciding American economic policy, not USA…

      1. You work WITH China, if you want to come out ahead. Because, if you go AGAINST it, China can be ruthless (and their leader doesn’t answer to any voters).

        It is much easier for China to exact vengeance than for USA, when such a move causes short-term economic hardship on population.

          1. Still no valid counterargument.

            A common behaviour here seems to be: when you lack valid arguments, simply go for the insults, that always works.

            Except it doesn’t. Because, contrary to what some people may think, there are also some smart people reading these discussions, and they can tell the difference between actual arguments and lack of them.

            Good luck in November! Cause you are going to need it!

            1. There are quite many people who pay good money for other people’s opinions and make strategic decisions based on that opinion.

              In these discussions, I avoid writing my own opinions; I have no expertise in this area to offer my own thoughts. I generally quote those who get paid big bucks to analyse things and provide advice.

              In the end, as someone profoundly said: “Opinions are like a$$holes; everyone has one, and most usually stink”…

            2. “In these discussions, I avoid writing my own opinions; I have no expertise in this area to offer my own thoughts.“

              Short answer: No way …

            3. Predrag has presented approximately 1000% more facts than trump troll Goeb has. Thank you goeb for reminding us not to listen to your incessant fact free political posts peppered with pathetic personal insults. We won’t miss you when you, Trump, and puppetmaster Putin are gone.

            4. I’d rather be Pro-Trump than an anti-Trump troll like you and PreDrag. The guy is amazingly tireless working for ALL the people.

              He posts selective facts and half-truths that only present a negative picture the same way as CNN, MSNBC, Schumer, et al. You never get the full BALANCED story.

              You want facts, I’ve posted this before:

              * 313,000 jobs added in February, 200,000 projected (blowout numbers).
              * Unemployment rate at 4.1 percent, the lowest since December 2000.
              * Employed Americans has broken eight RECORDS since President Donald Trump took office: 155,215,000 Americans were employed in February.
              * 31,000 manufacturing jobs added in February and sector employment increased by 263,000 since December 2016.
              * 6.9 percent black unemployment rate in February hits historic low.
              * Stock market soaring and breaking record after record since Trump took office.
              * Consumer confidence off the charts …

            5. Yes, indeed, those numbers are quite correct (although consumer confidence index has still ways to go to reach the levels of the late 1990s, but is certainly at the level of Reagan’s).

              All these economic numbers are a clear consequence of one major strategic policy: deregulation. There is no special magic here: less regulation makes it easier for businesses to increase profits.

              This is where your Republicans and Democrats fundamentally differ. On the right side, regulation (any regulation) is considered artificial and arbitrary government obstacle to free enterprise and free and open market economy. The fundamental belief there is that the forces of free, unhindered and open market will guarantee that every participant in commerce gets a fair chance, and any intervention, whether by restrictive rules, or anti-trust rules, by definition disturbs that natural balance that is ultimately the most fair.

              On the left side, the philosophy is that human greed makes people play dirty, and everything is allowed in love and war. Because we are a society of humans, who are far from perfect, that natural “balance” simply cannot exist, and humans will do anything in their power to tilt that balance in their personal favour, driven by the desire to succeed. And as a society of humans, when we let those imperfect humans run without any artificial barriers, we get robber barons of the late 19th century and their massively exploitative industries. It was the regulation that forced meet processing industry to introduce procedures for safe transportation, storage and handling of raw meat, significantly reducing the health problems from consumption of meat (and creation of FDA helped oversee the entire food industry). The point is, there are reasons for regulation, and they are always to protect consumers, either directly (by preventing hazardous product to reach market), or indirectly (by protecting open and free market for competitors, preventing anti-competitive predatory behaviour).

              During 2017, quite a lot of regulation has been dismantled, reducing cost of doing business in many industries, and this has obviously resulted in stock market growth (although that growth is a continuation from 2009).

              There is one major move of the Trump administration that those on the left seem to agree with (and those on the right don’t quite like), and it is the tariff move. While we will have to wait and see what the consequences will be of this one, although experts tend to agree that for every 1,000 jobs it saves or creates in the steel industry, 5,000 will be lost in manufacturing and other services.

              Bottom line: regulation is a necessary evil. It protects the air we breathe, the water we drink, it affords the small innovators to give it a shot without being smothered by a large incumbent… While dismantling them may give a shot to the economy, the long-term effects are always problematic.

            6. Once again, a few facts in a long tedious diatribe highly spiced with your opinions and liberal government dogma.

              Liberals as the good government regulation wizards saving the world from the greedy robber baron conservatives. That same old liberal carnard stereotype that thinks nothing has changed since the 1800s between the parties.

              And only you know valid counter arguments. Right …

    2. As usual, only tedious criticism for this president, you and TXuser.

      You have posted fantasy projections and opinions for the most part and all you know is, you don’t know. Just like you didn’t know Hillary would lose.

      If Meet the Press is hiring, you would be a prime candidate …

      1. So, essentially, you have no solid argument against my statement.

        Look, when your president has the lowest level of support even among his own party, not to mention the rest of the population, it is quite difficult to believe he will actually dome out on top.

        1. Last time I checked, Trump had approval numbers higher than Obama at this point in his presidency. Oh, that’s right. You only subscribe to fake media that had Hilliary winning in a landslide …

          1. Indeed, and it has for at least a few weeks now, and not just on Rasmunssen (which tends to be the most favourable to him).

            You may notice that I hadn’t compared him to any one prior president. Although, one could argue that at this point in Obama’s presidency, country was starting to recover from the greatest recession since the Great Depression, with unemployment rate in double-digits, while Trump’s low ratings come after a year of continued economic growth and declining unemployment. So, why do so many Americans (more than half) believe he is dong a bad job?

            1. Fair question and a couple points.

              I happen to believe polling is irretrievably broken. The breaking point was the 2016 presidential election where a couple polls you could count on one hand gave Trump a chance of winning. The overwhelming majority got it so far wrong and Trump won in an electoral college landslide.

              Same old methods used for decades that do not keep up with modern age and they do not sample all the people like those unplugged from the grid. I know and worked with professional pollsters and they joke all the time about getting any result they want if so inclined. Depends on the question and how you ask it.

              Polling is also a reflection of what people see in the daily BIASED media. When you have the majority media 24/7 destroy Trump channels and newspapers of the same methods it has an effect on the average person not politically engaged in detail. So the poll reflects then, what people see and hear, however skewed.

              At this point, they are a shot in the dark …

            2. I appreciate the effort at engaging in the discussion.

              I’m not sure I’m ready to completely dismiss polling, as off as it clearly was in the election. When you take a closer look at the election data, that win wasn’t really a landslide even by the most liberal definition of the term. In the swing states where Trump won, the margin was often quite slim, and, while this in no meaningful way diminishes the importance of the victory, does explain how the polls were not so profoundly off. In a country as polarised as it is today, it is impossible to get a landslide (in terms of popular vote) for one candidate or the other. The victory can only be obtained by swinging the very few that can be swung, so the polling can easily miss.

              And in that sense, polls really don’t have much value, if that margin of victory is slimmer than the margin of error in the polls. Except, they can provide trends, when done correctly.

              We’ll have to see how this goes in the next major election. As for the recent special elections, they were largely on the money.

            3. “When you take a closer look at the election data, that win wasn’t really a landslide even by the most liberal definition of the term.”


              Electoral landslide …

            4. Oh, come on! I’m not disputing the significance of the victory. We are now narrowly discussing the polling. It would be one thing if the polls had shown a landslide numbers in favour of Clinton, and result being landslide numbers for Trump, but they weren’t too far off with respect to numbers. Yes, they were predicting an electoral landslide by virtue of a narrow majority in swing states, which turned into a narrow majority for Trump.

              As wrong as the polls were in the end (entirely predicting the wrong winner), when you look at the underlying methodology and numbers, in the end, they were still within the numerical margin of error, since his victory in those swing states was very narrow, and their prediction was that she was going to get a narrow victory. In other words, the electoral college system made it look like the difference in what polls had predicted, and what had transpired, had been in some 15 – 30 percentage points, where in fact it was less than 3%.

              In the end, this doesn’t help anyone who wants to make decisions based on polling, in a political landscape where victories come more often than not with the slimmest of margins. Gone are the times of the Walter Mondale-type of landslide losses.

      2. So now I can get attacked without even posting?

        It isn’t a fantasy that the last time America imposed steel tariffs, it cost about 200,000 jobs. That is more than the entire 150,000 workforce in the steel industry. It isn’t a fantasy that the next target for tariffs, “overseas” carmakers, create jobs for hundreds of thousands of Americans. It isn’t a fantasy that the first casualty in this incipient trade war, Harley-Davidson, is already shedding jobs.

        It isn’t a fantasy that while Our Fearless Leader is attacking Chuck Todd, he is giving his pal Vladimir Vladimirovich a pass to stack US elections and poison UK residents.

        A man who can’t be trusted to keep his word cannot properly lead a country in a world where trust (but verify) is the primary currency.

        1. “.It isn’t a fantasy that the first casualty in this incipient trade war, Harley-Davidson, is already shedding jobs.”

          The first fantasy of yours, along with the rest of your post is Harley has been in trouble LONG BEFORE the tariffs were enacted. Stop lying …

  5. All Trump is doing is pointing out “unfair and unbalanced” tariffs.
    I guess none of you read what Elon Musk said last week.

    “Do you think the US & China should have equal & fair rules for cars? Meaning, same import duties, ownership constraints & other factors. For example, an American car going to China pays 25% import duty, but a Chinese car coming to the US only pays 2.5%, a tenfold difference. I am against import duties in general, but the current rules make things very difficult. It’s like competing in an Olympic race wearing lead shoes.”

    This is not a trade war. This is about equalizing the tariffs because the last 5 presidents did nothing to fix this shit.

    1. “This is not a trade war. This is about equalizing the tariffs because the last 5 presidents did nothing to fix this shit.”

      Precisely. Something the daily destroy Trump media will never tell you …

      1. You can of course decoratively say “This is not a trade war”, but saying it doesn’t change the fact that China, EU, Korea and Japan are all going to see it as a trade war, and act accordingly.

        The problem is not tit-for-tat reciprocating with tariffs. The problem is that tariffs have been proven as bad for the tariff-benefiting countries; never for the tariff-paying ones. In the history of the world economy, tariffs never produced the desired result (to protect the domestic labour) without significantly (and negatively) impacting the economy.

        It is a futile attempt to please the base that is already in his camp. I can’t understand why is he doing it — there are no political, or economic benefits for the country — only costs.

    2. Presidents did nothing to fix it because US banks and corporations and the top strata of US consumers are profiting by it. If you don’t like your trade deficit with Walmart or the Apple Store, then have you stopped trading your dollars for imported products there? Why not?

  6. Bring it on. European Union (the biggest market in the world) is happy to join the Chinese (“only”1.5 Billion people) and make the Trump pay the mess he created.

      1. You’re joking, right?

        In 2017, Of the five global car markets (North America, South America, EMEA, Asia/Pacific, including Japan/Korea, and China), only South Americans (8m) bough fewer cars than USA (17m). Asia, pacific, Korea and Japan together bought just a bit over 17m; EMEA did 21m, and China alone had 25m. And the trends are apparently going to continue; in 2017, USA had a drop (2%), while other major markets saw continued growth. Curious exception is the post-Brexit UK, that also had a drop.

        Yes, China will gladly buy all those Porsches if Trump puts up tariff barriers.

        USA has long ago stopped being THE car market for the car makers of the world. Today, China IS the market, and will remain that for at least ten more years.

        But good news is some 20,000 people will eventually get their steel jobs back…

          1. 2017 (serfs or no serfs):

            China: 25 million cars and growing (rapidly)
            USA: 17 million cars and falling

            I think you truly believe in that apocryphal quote attributed to Goebbels (“If you tell a lie and repeat it enough times, people will eventually come to believe it”).

            1. Like I said above, the trumpists never have facts or data. When confronted with the truth, the dickheads resort to personal attacks and change the subject. Classic loser behavior.

            2. You have to realize that bot-dork the trump troll thinks it is 1918, not 2018. Not having any knowledge of trade or diplomatic benefits, he swallows the isolationist BS his orange hero spews. High tariffs and isolationist policy has to worked so well for Russia, right? The Chinese wall has been a tremendous success in keeping out unwanted immigrants, right? You will be a more successful businessman if you spend hours every day whining and insulting everyone who says anything about you, right? This is the reality show that the USA has become. No principles, no willingness to collaborate, no effort to make hard investments today to create a better future. iCal this: by the time Trump is dumped, there will not be an all new coal mine, a new coal fired powerplant, or a new steel mill. These companies might hire a few people and pocket some extra short term profits, but the high margin industries tha America needs to be competitive in (as Germany demonstrates) are all going to get slammed in the foreseeable future, probably timed perfectly when the voters kick his fat orange ass out, at which point bot-dork the troll will blame either Obama or Hillary or the newly elected president who will have the unenviable task of rebuilding America from the tatters that decades of bipartisan corruption has left it. Especially the insane foreign offensive wars which lead to horrible overspending during peacetime, none of it paid for up front.

          2. You clearly have never been to China. I’ve been several times and seen considerable change myself.

            It’s a country which has changed dramatically in a very short period and there is now a massive middle class who are well paid, upwardly mobile and very aspirational. There are many ambitious technological projects ( space, military and scientific ) and everywhere you go, there are massive new infrastructure and hi-tech schemes both in cities and out of town too. My biggest criticism of China is that they are modernising too rapidly and are in danger of disregarding their history, which is a particularly rich and lengthy recorded history. In some cities, the ‘traditional’ buildings are simply modern recreations and are about as authentic as the stylised Chinatown architecture seen in many cities around the world.

            Go to popular holiday destinations worldwide and see which nationality accounts for the most foreign tourists. Chinese tourists were virtually unknown ten years ago and now they are the biggest sector in many international tourist areas. Coach loads of Chines people buying masses of local products are certainly not serfs and neither are they the elite. Huge numbers of Chinese have plenty of money to pay for travelling the world and buying whatever takes their fancy.

            Americans who underestimate China will be in for a very rude awakening over the next ten or twenty years when reality inevitably kicks in.

            1. @ botvinnik
              Actually I have seen quite a lot of Mercedes cars in China, not so much Audi or Porsche. I can’t be bothered to look for a link, but I remember Mercedes recently reporting that for the last few years, China was the largest individual overseas market for it’s products and that they enjoyed growth in excess of 25% within China last year.

              Convertible or sports cars don’t appear to be particularly common in China, but the ones I have seen included a high proportion of imported cars from Europe or Japan.

              I have some connections with the Aston Martin company and know that by the end of this year they will have expanded to 20 Aston Martin dealerships in China and are currently enjoying massive increases in sales to China. China is a market which high-end companies are taking very seriously indeed.

          3. So you assert that China is unfairly making too much money off of US trade that US corporations including Apple have willfully chosen. But nobody in China is going to buy anything with their wealth? This would be a historic first of any civilization.

            Sad how Trump fans can’t even manage the most basic economic concepts.

            If you don’t like trade, why are you investing in US corporations that have massively outsourced to undemocratic asian nations for decades? Why are you buying foreign made goods? Why would you even consider buying products designed by evil liberal California wackos who don’t politically align with your views? Lacking in principles?

      2. According to JATO, China bought 25.53 million cars in 2016. The US bought 17.55 million. Rate of automotive sales growth in China is well over 20%. The Trump Revolution hasn’t budged US sales growth above the longstanding ~2% which is strongly tied to population growth since the US is a mature and aging market. If you don’t think all luxury car manufacturers are fully engaged in setting up both manufacturing and distribution in China, you are willfully ignorant. I sense a theme here.

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