Apple CEO Tim Cook on EU tax demand: ‘No one did anything wrong here and Ireland is being picked on… It is total political crap’

“Apple chief executive Tim Cook has angrily dismissed Brussels’ tax accusations as ‘political crap,’ suggesting that Ireland is being ‘picked on’ and is a pawn in a wider European Commission agenda to harmonise taxes across the EU,” Adrian Weckler and Michael Cogley report for The Independent.

“He said he would ‘love’ to see the Government launch an appeal against the ruling. ‘I think we’ll work very closely together, as we have the same motivation. No one did anything wrong here and we need to stand together. Ireland is being picked on and this is unacceptable,'” Weckler and Cogley report. “Mr Cook strongly rejected the assertion by European Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager that Apple paid just 0.005pc tax in Ireland in 2014. ‘It’s total political crap,’ he said. ‘They just picked a number from I don’t know where. In the year that the Commission says we paid that tax figure, we actually paid $400m. We believe that makes us the highest taxpayer in Ireland that year.'”

Apple CEO Tim Cook
Apple CEO Tim Cook
“Mr Cook said that Apple and Ireland had ‘played by the rules’ and would win the case on appeal. In the meantime, he said that the EU’s tax ruling is set to cause serious trade and the US,” Weckler and Cogley report. “‘This is a huge overreach that represents retrospective activity and is completely unfair,’ he said… ‘This conclusion that the Commission has reached has no basis in law or in fact. So I think it clearly suggests that this is politics at play.'”

I think that Apple was targeted here. And I think that (anti-US sentiment) is one reason why we could have been targeted. People in leadership positions in several countries tell me that this is the agenda. I don’t know where that comes from. But what I feel strongly about is that this decision was politically based, of that I’m very confident. There is no reason for it in fact or in law… At a worldwide level, Apple pays income tax of 26.1 percent… I’d be the first to say that the tax system needs to be reformed and that it should be made simple and straightforward. But it should be talked about going forward, not in a way that retrofits the law to what others wish it was. It’s patently unfair and not what you expect from a developed country that has a history of rule and law. — Apple CEO Tim Cook

Much more in the full article here.

MacDailyNews Take: That about sums it up.

It’s a no-brainer for Ireland to join Apple in the appeal.

By policy recommendation, any clawbacks should go directly to pay off Ireland’s debt. Apple’s €13 billion would be a drop in the ocean of roughly €200 billion debt. The idea of pissing off one of your best and growing employers while conceding to be led around by the nose by a feckless Brussels kleptocracy in exchange for a meaningless drop in the ocean isn’t smart, it’s stupid.

Apple is currently Ireland’s 34th largest employer. How much tax revenue (income and health (USC), capital gains, sales, property, vehicle registration, plastic bag, etc., etc., etc.) and economic activity (sales of gas, housing, utilities, investment, food, BEER, etc.) do Apple’s upwards of 6,000 employees generate for Ireland annually?

SEE ALSO:
Ireland’s cabinet delays decision on Apple tax appeal – August 31, 2016
Apple: The European Union’s pointless tax crusade – August 31, 2016
Irish cabinet may be given more time to decide on Apple tax appeal – August 31, 2016
Post-Brexit Britain could benefit greatly from EU’s tax attack on Apple and Ireland – August 31, 2016
Ryanair CEO Michael O’Leary on Apple tax row: Irish government should tell EU to f**k off – August 31, 2016
U.S. taxpayers could end up paying Apple’s bill for back taxes in Ireland – August 30, 2016
Morningstar: Apple remains fundamentally undervalued after EU tax grab – August 30, 2016
Obama admin worries EU’s Apple decision will cost U.S. taxpayers; Bernie Sanders applauds EU tax demand – August 30, 2016
Ireland doesn’t want Apple’s $14.5 billion in so-called back taxes – August 30, 2016
U.S. Treasury: The European Commission’s retroactive tax demands on Apple are unfair – August 30, 2016
EU demands Apple pay massive $14.5 billion in taxes plus interest – August 30, 2016
Apple CFO Maestri: Despite EU tax ruling, we will continue to invest in Ireland – August 30, 2016
Apple CEO Cook blasts European Commission for ‘ignoring Ireland’s tax laws, upending the international tax system’ – August 30, 2016
European Commission to rule Ireland’s tax arrangement with Apple illegal – August 29, 2016
Ireland prepares for a fight with EU over Apple tax clawback – August 29, 2016
U.S. government warns EU: Do not hit Apple with a massive back tax bill – or else – August 25, 2016
European Commission denies anti-U.S. bias after U.S. Treasury intervention over Apple, Amazon tax probes – August 25, 2016

40 Comments

    1. Regarding: “‘They just picked a number from I don’t know where. In the year that the Commission says we paid that tax figure, we actually paid $400m. We believe that makes us the highest taxpayer in Ireland that year.’”

      The number the EU picked was .005%. If you do the math Apple would have had to have $8,000,000,000,000 in sales for that year.

      1. There’s obviously a huge discrepancy between what the EU is saying Apple pays in taxes vs. what Tim Cook has been saying.

        IMO, Cooks needs to stop with the ‘we did nothing illegal’ argument as that could be viewed as evidence of Apple and Ireland colluding.

        Instead, Cook really needs to explain where this discrepancy is coming from. If it’s shown that Apple is truly only paying 0.005% of their foreign profits then the court of public opinion at least will not be swayed by any argument regarding whether it was legal or not, and neither will the EU. But if Cook can demonstrate that Apple was paying a more reasonable tax rate (i.e. anywhere close to the12.5% Irish tax rate or 26% that Cook claims they actually pay on international profits) then he would have a much stronger platform to make his argument.

        Frankly, I’ve been following this issue for a few years and still don’t know which is accurate. The challenge is for Apple and Cook to explain why they are correct and the EU’s number is not.

    2. The “taxes” Tim Cook is referring to… covers what?

      None of you have picked up on this. I believe it includes PAYROLL TAXES. Apple PR did this before. So it’s not just corporate income taxes Cook is referring to then.

      He’s spinning things like Apple PR and this will bite him later.

      The EU is something that is out of the reach of the US government. So is Canada, amd any other sovereign nation. You don’t dictate these things.

      Ireland made the decision years ago to join the EU. They benefited from it. It is countries like Britain who got tired of carrying the poorer countries like Ireland as taxes paid into the EU go to support member states.

      Like it or not, the law is the law and people and companies mist pay taxes.

      Apple is there for one reason: to avoid taxes. Period. No preferential treatment can be given when it comes to tax. Not only does this make sense, but it’s the law and society wants it that way.

      All of you, and Apple need to stop whining.

      Even if this wasn’t retroactive, you would still whine.

      1. The UK didn’t get “tired of carrying” anyone. Our newspapers have been pushing complete BS about the EU for decades, conditioning the British people to dislike and distrust it. It’s no surprise after all that for enough people to have voted Out to have swung the balance.

        If I thought for one second that the fabricated nonsense version of the EU the likes of the Daily Express, Daily Mail and Sun print about was real I would have voted to leave it too. Yet all three of those comics pretending to be newspapers lie all the time, on just about every subject their articles are about. So why would I accept their EU coverage to be true?

        Oh, and the owners of these newspapers don’t pay their sodding taxes either.

  1. Europe is a socialistic cesspool. Plus the EU government is obsessed with the need to control everything. Hell, they even regulate the curvature of bananas.

    The citizens of Britain proved to be the smartest ones on that side of the pond when they voted to get out. Ireland, maybe you guys should follow Britain’s lead.

    1. The ‘curvature of bananas’ myth has long been debunked. Please don’t propagate Euromyth untruths in order to oppose tax policies you dislike. If you do, you’ll be as bad as the pro-Brexit people were (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth#Straight_bananas).

      Apple in Ireland has several corporations. One employs 6,000 people. Another has no physical offices and no employees, and therefore (due to a loophole) doesn’t have to pay any but the most minimal taxes. *That’s* the division where worldwide App Store monies go, and where the 0.005 percent number for taxes paid comes from. That’s where most of Apple’s huge cash reserves are kept.

      Don’t underestimate the argument for back taxes; it’s more credible than most arguments on this site have so far recognized. The fact that the US wants the funds repatriated (so the US government gets a percentage, instead of Ireland) doesn’t make the EU’s legal claim of egregious past implementation of tax policy factually incorrect.

      1. It’s not egregious if both parties agree to it. It’s not “back taxes,” – taxes owed were properly paid. It’s political retroactive rethink tax policy. Something that will stop businesses cold if this type of shenanigan is allowed to happen. They might well end up killing the international business investment Golden Goose and shooting themselves in the foot at the same time. All changes should go forward.

        1. The EU regulation being enforced here predates the App Store’s creation, and predates the money being earned. What the EU is saying is that Ireland agreed with Apple to something which was illegal in contravention of a previous treaty.

          It’s widespread for enforcement of tax laws to only apply forward, but not a legal requirement. Apple may be quite properly subject to this ruling. It may be unwise to tax corporations, as you say peterblood, but it’s not illegal.

          1. Overtaxing corporations, reneging on agreements, retroactive taxing is not wise to be sure. Businesses want to know where they firmly stand, and not on shifting quicksand. (I would suggest you wouldn’t like it either if the government suddenly decided you needed to pay another 15% over the last 10 years when you thought you were done.)

            Ireland is liable for this, they should know and certainly their legal dept. should know what they could and couldn’t do by their own EU agreements. They had been doing this before the EU agreements. And from what I’ve read are supposed to be able to manage their own tax affairs. The EU will not stand if countries cannot control their own destinies and affairs.

            Apple is a special case in Ireland, Steve Jobs set up in Cork when not many companies were doing that. The fact they were given special treatment is not surprising. They may have sold themselves short though. Apple probably would’ve been thrilled even with a 6% tax rate.

          2. @geoffsauer: The debate really is whether the EU has the power to regulate its members’ internal tax laws. You state that the EU Regulation being asserted predates the money earned. According to the predecessor of the woman who made the ruling, you are wrong and it does not. Neelie Kros, who was the Commissioner in charge of competition before Margrethe Vestager, said that the state-aid rules relied on by Vestager were never meant to apply to tax matters. “EU member states have a sovereign right to determine their own tax laws,” she said. “State-aid cannot be used to rewrite those rules. However, the current state-aid investigations into tax rulings appear to do exactly that.” https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/01/apple-tax-ruling-fundamentally-unfair-former-ec-competition-chief
            Kroes is also critical of the retrospective nature of the ruling, saying “you cannot change the rules of the game through ad hoc state-aid enforcement, and then seek retroactive recovery for unpaid taxes.”

      2. Back taxes? That is where you are 100% wrong. You may not think Apple paid fairly, but they paid in 100% compliance with existing tax law/code at the time each tax bill was due. Retroactive taxes based on changing the rules of the game long after the game ended is indefensible. It’s more of the socialistic garbage that flows out of a large portion of Europe. Maybe the EU should focus on why such innovation and growth doesn’t come out of Europe and then formulate policies to encourage the kind of economic activity they are so jealous of. Trying to level the field by going backwards is pathetic. Picking pockets in this manner borders expropriation

      3. Hey georffsaucer, did you actually read the Wikipedia article or are you just citing it from memory based what someone wrote in the Huffington Post comment section.

        The EU does regulate the curvature of bananas and the wiki article actually say this. But if you want to better understand the EU rules on this subject, here is a very complete and well researched article from Forbes a few months ago.

        http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/12/to-properly-explain-the-eus-bendy-bananas-rules-yes-theyre-real/#184eeac824a2

        Regarding the EU’s “legal” claim against Apple, it is actually illegal. The EU treaty gives countries the right to manage their own tax laws. For the EU to now dictate how Ireland interprets Ireland’s tax laws is overreach to the extreme.

    2. You don’t get it. This has nothing to do with Apple. It is a political push to change international commerce treaties on taxation. They want a high profile case with billions of dollars involved, so they are targeting one of the biggest foreign corporation: Apple. EU wants the profit to be taxed where the sale occurs instead of having a company choose where it wants to be taxed. Apple is not in Ireland for the view, it is there but because it has the lowest taxation rate in the EU, and this is perfectly legal. Forging a new treaty is almost impossible and would take decades. Changing the ones in place to follow a EU court order is much faster. Sadly for Apple, they will be in the middle of this international political storm for years to come.

      1. FWIW, I can see the logic in wanting profits to be taxed on where the product(s) are sold, but because there’s also VAT in most of EU, how is this not effectively a form of double-dipping?

  2. While I agree Apple is unfairly targeted, this: “By policy recommendation, any clawbacks should go directly to pay off Ireland’s debt. Apple’s €13 billion would be a drop in the ocean of roughly €200 billion debt. The idea of pissing off one of your best and growing employers while conceding to be led around by the nose by a feckless Brussels kleptocracy in exchange for a meaningless drop in the ocean isn’t smart, it’s stupid.” is powerful.

    $14 billion isn’t exactly chump change (maybe to Apple it is) but everyone knows how stupid and shortsighted politicians can be.

    Ireland has delayed stating it will appeal the decision. Maybe some in government are eyeing that $14b? Future income be hanged?

      1. Scandals

        – IRS targets Obama’s enemies
        – Benghazi
        – Spying on the AP
        – The ATF “Fast and Furious” scheme
        – Sebelius demands payment
        – The Pigford Agriculture Department Scandal
        – The General Services Administration Las Vegas Spending Spree.
        – Veterans Affairs in Disney World and neglecting vets
        – Solyndra
        – New Black Panthers Voter Intimidation
        – The hacking of Sharyl Attkisson’s computer
        – Obama’s LIES about the Affordable Care Act
        – “I’ll Pass My Own Laws”
        – NSA Spying on American People

        Foreign Policy

        – Lack of solidarity with Israel
        – Disaster with the Arab Spring
        – Crimea
        – Leaving Iraq too soon and letting ISIS take over
        – Handling of Syrian Red Line
        – Calling ISIS “JV”
        – Failing to Recognize ISIS as a Radical (or Devout) Muslim Movement
        – Returning the bust of Churchill to the Brits
        – Lack of Confidence by NATO nations
        – Signing a Disastrous Nuclear Deal with the Mullahs of Iran
        – Paid $5 Billion & Released 5 Taliban Prisoners For Deserter Bergdahl
        – Waging war by attacking Libya without Congressional approval
        – Allowed the building of Chinese bases in the South China Sea and off the coast of Somalia at the entrance to the gulf of Aden
        – Paying ransom to Iranian for hostages- and using foreign currency in unmarked plane
        – Lying about paying ransom (which so-called journalists ignored)

        Domestic Policy

        – Failure to secure the Border
        – Illegals bringing guns, drug and diseases through the southern border
        – Bowe Bergdahl swap
        – Passing on the keystone pipeline
        – 9 Trillion dollars more in debt
        – Vast expansion of government
        – Racial Division at all-time high
        – Inviting Bomb Boy Ahmed to White House
        – Disrespect for Cops leading to Assisinations of Cops
        – Failed economic stimulus plan
        – Constant disregard for the Constitution and tyrannical rule
        – China overtook America as world’s largest economy
        – Double Downgrade
        – Housing policies failed to stop foreclosures
        – Price of healthcare has drastically risen for those purchasing it
        – Education policies failed to curb college costs
        – Highest percentage of Americans on Food Stamps and Medicaid
        – Record 92,898,000 Americans over 16 years not working
        – Lowest Labor Force participation rate of 62.7%
        – Denying the notion of American Exceptionalism
        – Securing the Olympics for Chicago in 2016
        – Naming numerous Communists/Socialists/Progressives to Czar Positions
        – Mismanagement and cover up of Terrorist shootings in San Bernardino, California
        – Mismanagement of Gulf Oil Spill
        – Disastrous Vetting Process of “Immigrants” from Muslim Nations
        – Refusing to Listen to CIA/FBI that there is no way to properly vet certain immigrants from Muslim nations
        – Fort Hood Shooting
        – Colorado EPA Disaster

        And counting until this mistake is finally over…

        1. Good Grief!

          Don’t Forget The Racist in and out of Congress.

          You know for six years the republican congress has not presented one budget. They have been to busy trying to make this President look bad. Why are they getting paid? No work no pay.

          Examine that nut trump. trump tells whatever group he standing in front of what they want to hear. Being that you are an expert on lies, I understand why you don’t list trump’s daily whoppers.

          You poor folks don’t know what’s in your own interest, but know that ronald, I mean, donald knows what’s in his best interest.

          For example, the trump modeling agency where he use “illegal” models from Europe, easier to get them in, their skin is white, nobody notices unless they talk. No Americans there! HaHaHa! That Guy! And he underpays them. That guy! Well hell, they are here and illegally working, who are they going to tell. That guy! HaHaHa!

          Or his manufacturing concerns, they are located Mexico. Clothing at that. That Guy!

          Or running a casino into bankruptcy, come on, the only place in the world where people come and just throw money on the table, then doing a deal where the Saudis ( Muslims ) buy the place by paying off the debt. No profit there. That Guy!

          Or the real estate company with its racist policies caught twice breaking the law. Oh That lad!

          Or, in case case of the African-American teenagers accused of raping a white woman in the park, this idiot, trump, takes out full page ads calling for their heads. The problem here, they were innocent. Turns out the woman and her biological father were having sex in the park and asked the teens (the kids) to join in. Where is the apology?

          Don’t be such suckers. Your bigotry is showing.

          Odd to me that so many of the racist, and bigots, in the south, joined the republican party in the 60’s. You do know why don’t you?

          Most importantly, you do get it, while the republicans are having you look over there, they can give their friends and pals all sorts of things (money). No budget, nothing to compare the spending to. Suckers!

          There have been times in recent history where the republicans controlled congress, how many departments did they close?

          Those that say government in too big too many regulation, what is the correct size? Which regulations do you want to get ride of? Are you saying get rid of americans? There are 330 million americans? Is that the big you are talking about? It seems to me the more people in the store the more sale people you need to hire. ( actually that is not what many business do, so they lose sells, and wonder why sells are falling off. oh well. long lines in walmart, bank, etc… )

          You do know as regulations are lifted jobs go away. The company tells you it cost to comply with the regulation. They are talking about the people. The people are the real cost. Your job. Funny you agree with them. Ok, when that group does loses their jobs, how many houses do you think they are going to buy, how many cars, how much eating out will occur, how many clothes from trump’s Mexico plants?

          Really, do you think trump can make an honest dollar. Wait, wrong question. Sorry. Do you think he know what honesty is? Really! Dude come on. Nobody’s around. Be honest with yourself at least.

          oh, yeah, get deprogramed, try randi rhodes live on youtube at 4:00 pm EST. you may learn something.

          1. Gosh that was funny, BOB! There are skeletons everywhere in the U.S. Government, and you just revealed a small sample from the Republican side.

            Of course, botty blames everything on Obama…soon you will find out how all of these things are really the fault of Obama, even those that happened before he became a Senator.

          2. Excellent diatribe, you get an “A” in Rhetoric! Especially effective: the conversational style, in stark contrast to the yawn-inducing lists of talking points usually presented here to damn Tim Cook or a political candidate. — Those damned lists are creepily similar to the long handwritten list of myself’s personal flaws that my Ex presented in divorce court. OK, sure, I burnt the house down but come on! Nobody’s perfect.

        2. Oh First . . . whatever. This one was good, even by your standards. You do know that most of the statement on that list of yours are just outright lies, don’t you? The ones that aren’t are stories with a grain of truth but so distorted for political gain. Do you really mean to tell me that you blame Obama because an American soldier went off the rails and shot up Fort Hood? Or that you don’t know that the date of the Iraq withdrawal was set by Bush Jr. and Iraq refused to renegotiate? Or that the US recovery from the recession was actually the fastest in the western world? Or that the Fast & Furious plan was started under Bush? Or that the failure to provide requested security improvements in Benghazi was because the GOP House refused them? Or that while Solyndra went bust it was just one of many companies that the Feds helped in creating an industry which has the largest jobs growth in the private sector? Or that illegal immigration is at a 10 year low – and was at its all time peak under Bush? Do you REALLY blame Obama because China built some islands in the South China Sea?
          I’d go on but I have more important things to do.
          You are SO gullible.

    1. First someone needs to figure out what Brexit is going to be. UK government keeps telling everyone it’ll happen and be successful, but they haven’t got a clue about what they want or how to achieve it. One thing’s for certain though, it’s going to be very expensive.

  3. I find it curious that the EU rely on court judgements rather than exacting legislation to close these loopholes. It highlights the sorry state of political structure in many democratic countries (including the States) where the legislature is becoming totally ineffective.
    I have not problem saying that the law is wrong and moving forward cannot be utilized in that way. But to retroactively demand taxation is ridiculous.
    In my opinion, taxation should be exercised in the country it was generated. Then it is up to the member states to determine their own level of taxation. Taking advantage of a few countries that offer psuedo tax havens is wrong and should have been blocked decades ago. It is laughable that the EU has just woken up to this given that they have looked the other way for such a long time.

  4. Apple is reported to have paid £12.9m in corporation tax in the UK in 2015 despite recording sales of over £1bn.

    The accounts for the year to 26 September revealed that the tax bill for two of the company’s UK entities increased 9% in 2015 from £11.8m in 2014.

    Apple UK’s revenue increased 4.6% but profit dropped to £78m, which resulted in corporation tax payments decreasing to £6.5m.

    Apple Retails UK, a division that runs the company’s network of stores, reported a 12% rise in revenue to £1bn and a profit of £6.4m, according to the Telegraph.

    Looks like Apple Retail is not very profitable at all, or does some creative accounting make it look this way!!!! Alot of Apple internal departments bill each other like Apple Cork who take a huge chunk for the items being sold in the retail stores, its basically loaned stock this makes Apple Retail Uk look like it makes very little profit

  5. I wasn’t around for the first 9/11 but after reading what Tim Cook had to say I can well imagine it would be something that Saddam Hussein could have said. There is no program to build weapons of mass destruction, there was no involvement in the second 9/11. It’s all political crap.

    Of course the only difference is Tim is when your country does political crap hundreds of thousands of civilians die. Maybe you should take another trip to another island and check out the Guantanamo Resort on the Bay your country runs and the anti-global sentiment that exudes from your country.

    I know that this situation is crap but then again so was the first 9/11, one of the greatest terrorist acts on the planet orchestrated by your nation and violating democracy at the core. You have to earn respect and it ain’t going to happen while you are based in a nation that is anti-global cause Apple is pro-global.

    Greener pastures await.

      1. There were some that were found but certainly not a significant amount and not a weapons program.

        From Pitt, William R. War On Iraq: What Team Bush Doesn’t Want You to Know: “since 1998 Iraq has been fundamentally disarmed: 90-95% of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capacity has been verifiably eliminated … We have to remember that this missing 5-10% doesn’t necessarily constitute a threat … It constitutes bits and pieces of a weapons program which in its totality doesn’t amount to much, but which is still prohibited … We can’t give Iraq a clean bill of health, therefore we can’t close the book on their weapons of mass destruction. But simultaneously, we can’t reasonably talk about Iraqi non-compliance as representing a de-facto retention of a prohibited capacity worthy of war.”

        Essentially the whole reason to go invade Iraq was poppycock. We are still seeing the consequences of such stupidity, but hey, what do you expect from a nation that is built on being at war 80% of the time since its inception. It’s in their DNA (Destructive Nuclear Arsenal).

        That’s why this tax thing with Apple is going to be interesting, they are usually dishing it out, now they have to take it. I’m still with Apple on this, and I hope they appeal it until it’s sorted in their favor but I’m sure that Apple’s home country will be rattling the sabers and might take some action against the EU. We’ll just have to wait and see.

        1. It’s true, we have war in our blood. We are all immigrants, that’s why—fleeing from war and persecution in our homelands, or arriving against our will on slave ships. Others of us fled crippling poverty or starvation, as did my own Irish forebears, for a chance at a decent life. Americans! — Motley crew that we are, quarreling amongst ourselves to no end, amusing the “proper” civilised world, we yet remain the stand-out destination for anyone wanting to make something of themselves, without bowing and scraping to unworthy accidental overlords. Yes it is a mess but better than a death sentence or serfdom. No one has ever defected from the U.S.A. As for dropping atomic bombs on Japan, they ran a sneak attack on Pearl Harbour, enslaved Asians, and specialised in torture. They practically defined modern imperialism. America has shed its colonies. There is no concept of innocence in war. Americans don’t pretend to innocence. If anything, we are insular. Leave us alone. If we sinned, let God judge us, not remote magistrates or political moralists.

          1. You have war in your blood because you are all migrants? Do you have any idea how preposterous that sounds? There are over 30 countries in North and South America, made up of migrants and you don’t see any of them going off on the tirades like your does. The closest I can think of something like that is Argentina going after Falklands islands around 1982 and that was a localized dispute, though not for Britain.

            No one has ever defected from your nation? Puhlease don’t try brainwashing propaganda on me. You might want to educate yourselves on this list of names, Arthur Adams, Joel Barr, Lona Cohen, Morris Cohen, Alexander Gelver, Bill Haywood, Harold M. Koch, George Koval, Arnold Lockshin, Martin and Mitchell, Isaiah Oggins, Lee Harvey Oswald, Alfred Sarant, Robert Edward Webster, Flora Wovschin. You might be familiar with someone from that list, Lee Harvey Oswald, who defected to the Soviet Union in 1959. There’s someone else that could be considered recent defector as well, Edward Snowden.

            Newsflash dahlink, your Imperialism is alive and well. One of the most insightful comments I heard from a serviceman who was in Iraq was regarding how democracy was trying to be instilled to a culture that was still learning about toilet paper.

            You ran a sneak, sleazy attack on Iraq, enslaved folks from over 50 countries and specialized in torture. You should count your blessings no one has dropped a nuke on you.

            There is a concept of innocence in war, innocent civilians caught in the cross fire and for the Iraq war since 2003 the estimates are all over the board but the smallest number is around 150,000. That’s a lot of innocent blood on your hands and it don’t wash off easily.

            There is nothing better that I’d love to do than leave you alone, but you go first. Leave the free and civilized world alone, and when a country elects a government through democracy, accept it, unlike the travesty you inflicted upon a nation the way you did during the first 9-11.

            I’ll give you full credit to your comment about immigration though, your country is number 1 when it comes to that but for the rest of your post, well I can only gather that by the time stamp that you wrote it late at night feeling very tired and ornery. You are so much better than that, I know you are.

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