The following article was originally posted on April 9, 2010 at 5:27pm ET. By overwhelming request, and in honor of the Adobe’s killing of mobile Flash, we repost it here:
“By now you have surely heard about the new iPhone 4.0 SDK language that appears to make creating applications in any non-Apple-approved languages a violation of terms,” Lee Brimelow, Adobe Flash Platform Evangelist, blogs for The Flash Blog.
“Obviously Adobe is looking into this wording carefully so I will not comment any further until there is an official conclusion,” Brimelow writes.
MacDailyNews Take: Brimelow then inexplicably proceeds to comment further. This marks just the first of his many lies. Of course, in order to evangelize Adobe’s Flash, you have to be a liar.
Brimelow continues, “What they are saying is that they won’t allow applications onto their marketplace solely because of what language was originally used to create them. This is a frightening move that has no rational defense other than wanting tyrannical control over developers and more importantly, wanting to use developers as pawns in their crusade against Adobe.”
MacDailyNews Take: Whiners whine and liars lie and sometimes they’re one and same. We already explained this quite clearly earlier today: “Flash is a proprietary, resource-hogging, browser-crashing abomination and we don’t want ported software on our iPhones, iPads, iPods or Macs; software designed for the lowest common denominator is inferior to software designed to take advantage of individual platforms’ strengths.”
As John Gruber writes over on Daring Fireball, “My opinion is that iPhone users will be well-served by this rule. The App Store is not lacking for quantity of titles. Consider, for one example, Amazon’s Kindle clients for iPhone OS and Mac OS X. The iPhone OS Kindle app is excellent, a worthy rival in terms of experience to Apple’s own iBooks. The Mac Kindle app is a turd that doesn’t look, feel, or behave like a real Mac app. The iPhone OS Kindle app is a native iPhone app, written in Cocoa Touch. The Mac Kindle app was produced using the cross-platform Qt toolkit.” Full article here.
Adobe should understand programming for lowest common denominator implicitly because they long ago turned their backs on the very platform that made their company in order to design their apps for Windows, the lowest common denominator. That is why Mac users suffer with inferior Adobe software today. Adobe should have focused more on Apple’s Mac instead of foolishly waiting for the platform to die and then, when it didn’t drop dead as they hoped, treating Mac users as second-class citizens while pimping inferior Windows PCs.
In addition, “The primary reason for the change, say sources familiar with Apple’s plans, is to support sophisticated new multitasking APIs in iPhone 4.0. The system will now be evaluating apps as they run in order to implement smart multitasking. It can’t do this if apps are running within a runtime or are cross compiled with a foreign structure that doesn’t behave identically to a native C/C++/Obj-C app,” Daniel Eran Dilger reports for AppleInsider. Full article here.
Brimelow continues, “The fact that Apple would make such a hostile and despicable move like this clearly shows the difference between our two companies. All we want is to provide creative professionals an avenue to deploy their work to as many devices as possible.”
MacDailyNews Take: So, Adobe doesn’t want to own the proprietary toolset to generate profits by controlling the Web’s multimedia platform. The charitable angels at Adobe just want to provide creative professionals with blah, blah, blah. Well then, Adobe should drop Flash into the dumpster where it belongs, and embrace the creation of cross-platform tools that enable people to deploy open standards, such as HTML5, that actually will work on as many devices as possible, including 85+ million iPhones, iPod touches, and iPads.
Brimelow continues, “Many of Adobe’s supporters have mentioned that we should discontinue the Creative Suite products on OS X as a form of retaliation. Again, this is something that Adobe would never consider in a million years. We are not looking to abuse our loyal users and make them pawns for the sake of trying to hurt another company. What is clear is that Apple most definitely would do that sort of thing as is evidenced by their recent behavior.”
MacDailyNews Take: Adobe won’t do that because they’d go under. Real creative professionals use Macs. Adobe can’t live off Windows sufferers trying to use pirated copies of Photoshop or mangling amateur video with Adobe’s craptastic Premiere.
Brimelow continues, “Personally I will not be giving Apple another cent of my money until there is a leadership change over there. I’ve already moved most of my book, music, and video purchases to Amazon and I will continue to look elsewhere. Now, I want to be clear that I am not suggesting you do the same and I’m also not trying to organize some kind of boycott. Me deciding not to give money to Apple is not going to do anything to their bottom line. But this is equivalent to me walking into Macy’s to buy a new wallet and the salesperson spits in my face. Chances are I won’t be buying my wallets at Macy’s anymore, no matter how much I like them.”
MacDailyNews Take: Adobe’s Platform Evangelist relegates himself to second-rate media services and that’s supposed to be some big statement? A big joke is more like it; we’re certainly laughing.
Brimelow continues, “Now let me put aside my role as an official representative of Adobe for a moment as I would look to make it clear what is going through my mind at the moment. Go screw yourself Apple.”
MacDailyNews Take: Pure class and absolutely nothing new: “Go screw yourself” is exactly what Adobe’s been saying to Apple Mac users for the last several years.
One of these two companies is screwed and it’s not Apple.
Now, somebody over there in lazytown had better give widdle baby Lee his bottle, he sounds desperate.
MacDailyNews Note: Ever launch Photoshop? The length of time it takes for that mess of spaghetti code to launch is one reason why we find ourselves using Pixelmator pretty much exclusively nowadays. The [US$29.99] Pixelmator is really nice and it’s built expressly for Mac OS X, not released as an afterthought that fails take advantage of many of Mac OS X’s core strengths.
Note to advertisers: (including those who advertise via third-party ad networks and become, in effect, our advertisers): Your Flash-based ads are no longer reaching the most well-heeled customers online: 50+ million iPhone owners. They’re also not hitting brand new iPad users or 35+ million iPod touch users. If you care about reaching people with discretionary income, you might want to consider dumping your flash-based ads and moving to a more open format that people with money and the will to spend it can actually see.
Help kill Adobe’s Flash:
• Ask CNBC to offer HTML5 video via the customer support web form here.
• Contact Hulu and ask them to offer HTML5 video via email:
• Ask ESPN360 to offer HTML5 video instead Flash via their feedback page here.
• Join YouTube’s HTML5 beta here.
• On Vimeo, click the “Switch to HTML5 player” link below any video.
Related articles:
Beleaguered Adobe pulls plug on Flash; axes 750 jobs; shares drop – November 9, 2011
Adobe ceases development on Flash Player for mobile, refocuses efforts on HTML5 – November 9, 2011
Remember Custer’s last stand.
LMAO……. You know exactly how badly you hurt them by the way they react. When Adobe starts kicking and screaming like little spoiled children, you know for a fact that SJ just hit them where it hurts.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” />
Wow. I wonder how long that douche bag will be working for Adobe?
Exactly as MDN put it: Without Apple and the Macintosh platform, there probably wouldn’t even BE an Adobe, unless they invented some sort of DOS Command Line Enhancer and managed to scam Microsoft into using it.
How long do we think Lee will keep his job?
I have not bought Adobe products almost 10 years now. I can live without them. They have the worst customer service.
Here’s what Prince D.E.D. opined on earlier: “Apple’s prohibition of Flash-built apps in iPhone 4.0 related to multitasking”
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/04/09/apples_prohibition_of_flash_built_apps_in_iphone_4_0_related_to_multitasking.html
One who throws dirt is usually losing the most ground!
MW: “one!”
AppleInsider helped me understand some of the technical reasons for not wanting flash-ported apps.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/04/09/apples_prohibition_of_flash_built_apps_in_iphone_4_0_related_to_multitasking.html
It’s all about the new multi-tasking APIs. It completely makes sense. This is why the new restriction only applies to iPhone OS 4. If Apple just wanted to give these apps the bird they would simply update the existing developer agreement.
It’s not about hating on flash (even thought it sucks). It’s about making sure apps work properly with the new multitasking stuff in OS 4.
Brimelow: “I’ve already moved most of my book, music, and video purchases to Amazon and I will continue to look elsewhere”
Remove your shit and stick it up your hemorrhaging ass, do us all a favor…. if it was any good you’d have some proud accomplishments to back it up…
ZC:
Along with Adobe and Brimelow Go Fsuck yourself too. Nobody is forced into Apple and certainly there’s nothing says you deserve a good user experience.
Imposter alet- Not my post MDN
Above post ( unregistered user) is hijacked – NOT mine.
Oops, didn’t notice the date…
Apple should let customers decide whether they want to use Flash tho, I absolutely hate it when somebody tries to control what software I can use.
Why can’t Apple just set Flash OFF by default and perhaps issue some warnings if you turn it ON, but it should be possible to enable it in iPhone.
Flash never got over the first hurdle — they never got it to work on iOS, or (for the vast bulk of the time since 2007) on any other mobile OS.
Eventually they got something up — “mobile Flash” which couldn’t even handle regular Flash content. And I heard it described as “not frames-per-second, but seconds-per-frame”.
Apple has always focused on shipping products that worked, and worked at a level well above most of what the rest of industry routinely shipped.
This is all well known – their operation wasn’t meant for amateur hour. Adobe knew the bar they needed to clear and they never could clear it — this, from a major tech corporation with deep experience in development.
I believe that’s part of the reason why you weren’t given a block/unblock button: it simply wasn’t functional.
Wow, does he know how bitter he sounds. Apple wants control because they know that what works 100%. He is just upset that apple just crushed a major feature of CS5.
C1? Weighing in?
I use Adobe CSx Suite on my Mac – because I need to for client reasons. I would love nothing else than to not have to buy this bloated piece of cra* that adds insult to injury by being feature limited compared to Windoze versions. Adobe can go screw itself – and thats from a customer, not some over paid whiney evangelist.
PS:
Brimelow you yellow bellied coward – How come you disabled comments and links for feedback, after being so “bold” and prematurely coming on yourself ?
Chicken…..pluckpluckpluck
@Rayban
Apple is doing the best thing for their customers. If Apple allowed everything on their platform, it would be a big mess with crashes and poor multitasking. Then you would be on here blaming Apple for allowing this to happen.
Sorry, it’s Apple’s platform, and they get to make the rules. You don’t have to like it…….
@Rayban
and to put it in a different manner, maybe we should allow a company to decide whether they want a 3rd party POS lazy coding on their platform or not. Just like each individual customers, Apple is more like a proud individualistic company that doesn’t care to live by the poll very often. Instead of abusing a monopolistic position and unethical boardroom dealings like many of its peers, it allows for the customers to vote with their wallets.
How refreshing is that!
MDN MW: ‘wife,’ really???
Aldus Pagemaker 4.0 was a great product. It was totally screwed up once Adobe bought it.
Whenever my Mac crashes now it is always either Word or an Adobe product. They’re both bloated behemoths. Adobe has a chance to make it up to me if CS5 is an amazing and stable upgrade. Otherwise, I’m gonna start whopping around.
Adobe can just go suck on a beet.
I’m with you Cubert, I wanna hear C1’s take…
I’ve been a customer of Adobe since PS3 was new and a customer of Macromedia since Dreamweaver was launched. Not as long as some, but long enough. I’ve bought my last Adobe product.
Adobe is still a mud hut.
People looking for an alternative to Dreamweaver should look at the cheaper, lighter, less cluttered Flux from The Escapers.
I think ESPN will come round by football season. After all, ESPN is a Disney Company, and we know who owns the most shares of that Mickey Mouse Outfit…
Adobe’s overpriced and underpowered products are so 20th century. This is a major problem for consumers: programs like Photoshop which, in their time were hugely influential and spawned entire industries have fallen into the trap of sublime recapitulation – ie, adding bloatware with no real innovation.
Byte Magazine said it best back in 1994: “Indeed, it would not be an exaggeration to describe the history of the computer industry for the past decade as a massive effort to keep up with Apple”. That sentiment is even more true today than when was originally written.
=:~)
Pushing Pixelmator in favor of Photoshop is like telling someone that his Civic is just as good and confortable as a BMW. Sorry MDN. I do agree with this entier Flash thing on the side of Apple, but Photoshop is Photoshop and you obviously don’t make a living using it or else, you would see how ludicrous your Pixelmator comparison really is. On my Mac Pro, Photoshop starts up really fast, but yet, it was designed for this kind of work.
Brimelow continues, “Now let me put aside my role as an official representative of Adobe for a moment as I would look to make it clear what is going through my mind at the moment. Go screw yourself Apple.”
MacDailyNews Take: Pure class and absolutely nothing new; “Go screw yourself” is exactly what Adobe’s been saying to Apple Mac users for the last 15 years.
If you read nothing else, that’s all you need to read right there. As much as Brimelow pretends he can set aside his official role, he’s still making the statement as a representative of Adobe.
And MDN’s take is bang on the mark – this is final confirmation of the attitude Mac users have been feeling from Adobe for a long time now.
If Adobe had any integrity left, they would fire this guy for the extreme unprofessionalism he’s just displayed while speaking on their behalf.
Wow and wow! He went off, then MDN went off. Wow!
I use Adobe stuff and will for years to come, but where they lost me as a champion of their products was when they started sticking all those god awful stupid apps. in their products. Things like, Bridge, Updater, and Flash Player, etc. Junk-ware. It was about 10-12 yrs. ago, they moved to a “unified” interface for their apps. Well, time has come again, IMHO, for them to unify their interfaces again. Crap is strewn all over the place from app. to app. As each year passes their software and all the associative items that they string along with it appears to be more and more like M$ model. A model that keeps you “locked” into their “eco-system.”
Apple is clearly, forging ahead here. The iPhone/iPod touch and now the iPad are showing the personal computing system that not only the computing landscape is changing, but indeed the development for those devices too is reforming as well. When Apple moved to buy NeXT and the NeXT Step OS was the greatest day of my life. From that point forward, I’ve never looked at any other computing platform due to the OS’s solid UNIX based underpinnings. The only thing I’ve ever regretted about Apple was Steve Jobs ouster. If that event hadn’t happened, I’d have probably been using and doing the things I’m doing with their products now, five years sooner. With all the technical “duck-in-a-row” this time it’s Apple’s turn to demonstrate (and to dictate to some extent) how computing will evolve forward to meet the user’s needs rather than visa versa. Get “on board” or be left floundering and risk your companies demise as there’s a million “small” developers ready and willing to take your place, Adobe!
@Chas
Photoshop is NOT a consumer product. In fact, Adobe takes it so seriously that it is not only there flagship product, but it has been entirely rewritten in Cocoa to be able to take advantage of Apple latest technologies. Have you seen what Adobe has in store with this latest version? I would guess not, because you would not be blabbering this crap about lack of innovation.
The first word coming to mind to describe this Adobe “evangelist” is petulant.
The second word is pendejo.
As a diehard Mac user, I have no burden to support Adobe. But in all fairness, someone said Photoshop takes forever to load. As an Aperture 3 user, let me say that native Apple application is not a whole lot better. It’s still buggy and crashes. I am aware that there are a number of Mac users who are apparently quite satisfied with Adobe products.
On another note, it’s amusing. As I type this comment, there is an Adobe Lightroom ad prominently displayed to the right… funny
What a dopey loudmouthed punk making excuses for a dopey company. They should change the company name to Adopy. You have been screwing your customers with crappy, bloated, and buggy products at exorbitant prices long enough. It’s time Apple puts you and your suite of products out of misery.
My final copy of the bloated, crash-prone Photoshop was bought about 3 years ago. Pixelmator does just fine for my needs now. Flash has crashed and hogged my machines – starting with early PCs – for years. Why is there such arrogance at Adobe – and Intuit, as well? Instead of updating, cleaning up, and advancing their products, they are mired in the past. While we now have the wonderful Mac platform that does not place obstacles between us and our work, these guys have made that clean interface impossible with their monopolies. Step aside guys and let us get some work done.
Adobe Platform Evangelist: ‘Screw Apple. We did!’
Wow, how professional!
I’m a heavy user of the cs apps, and I find myself trying to use them less and less, they get slower every day.
For instance when opening a 50k PDF and waiting over 20 seconds for acrobat to activate and show me the PDF, I’ve already dragged it to apples preview application, read the PDF and closed it.
When acrobat finally wheezes it’s way into opening it I’m already doing something else.
Photoshop is the same. If I just need to quickly view the image, I’ll use quicklook.
Adobe would do well to remember how quickly mac users dropped quark when they started neglecting us.
The same can happen to you adobe.
with sh**t cross platform open file dialog boxes why oh why in 2010 does Adobe use this path /Network/Volumes/Xraid/usershortname/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/Proj….c ooops path too long everything fsckd up… WHAT is wrong with /tmp huh … is it so hard?
end rant
Am I becoming old and mistakenly believe Adobe once said they weren’t writing for Mac OS anymore? If this is true, then it’s nothing but a reversal of fortune. Do I remember correctly?
The hypocrisy coming from him is pretty profound. How do you think most Mac users have felt over the years as they watched Adobe screw Apple by delivering their products late, full of bugs, and with terrible performance? Didn’t seem to bother them.
You reap what you sow!
Without Apple’s adoption of Adobe’s Postscript printer language, Adobe would have been a stillborn company. Adobe paid Apple back by charging ridiculous licensing fees, bashing the Mac as often as it could, and then converting to all Windows development, making Mac users live with terrible ports.
Well Adobe, you’re reaping what you sowed. Good riddance.
So far, no one has more succinctly put it then John Gruber at Daring Fireball:
http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/why_apple_changed_section_331
Absolutely spot on.
‘moreman’:
When my iMac crashes 9 times out of 10 it is an Apple app that when down.
Sorry, but Ps is the industry standard. Pixelmator is great but not a serious competitor. Yet.
if there was ever a place to study fanboyism, this was it. I mean, holy shite.
It’s a bit cowardly on Brimelow’s part not to allow comments, and to close himself off from any counter-argument. He’s decided he knows all the answers already and isn’t ready to hear anything else.
That’s foolish behavior, and will not serve him well.
I think there are likely valid reasons Apple has done what it’s done. But, there’s something else here I’d like to point to Brimelow:
It’s a bit rich for anyone from Adobe to complain about Apple cutting off any particular avenue for something like Flash. Can you say Adobe FrameMaker? Windows ONLY. Can you say 64-bit? Windows ONLY (at least until CS5, I suppose). Adobe has not shown much interest in optimizing their apps for Apple’s hardware. So, Apple is wisely making sure that their platform is not to be held up by any 3rd party, including Adobe.
So, I’ll respond to Brimelow in his own fashion: Tough Shit.
“Apple should let customers decide whether they want to use Flash tho, I absolutely hate it when somebody tries to control what software I can use”
then why in the world are you using Apple products? You shouldn’t even be using Microsoft. You should be using Linux if your value system. Apple’s whole world is about trading off some freedom in return for simplicity. If you’re the kind that prefers to trade off simplicity for total freedom, then get a LiMo phone.
I read the MDN Takes all the time. But these ones are the best so far. Cut through so much thick smoke. Anyway, Sony with their PS3 picks and chooses developers all the time – it’s their box. Everyone hates it when someone exercises a perogitive they don’t like and here that is merely what Apple has done. They’ll say they hate Apple for all kinds of exagerated reasons but the real (and most exagerated) reason is that Apple just thinks about itself. Problem with that tiresome argument is that it’s actually perfectly normal to take care of yourself first. Even parents know they need to pay attention to themselves if they want to be fit and usefull to their children. Apple has probably never been so fit and usefull. It would be a shame for a developer with a good idea and good attitude to waste that over feigned misunderstanding of whose back yard the ‘i’ products are in.
@ Cubert
There’s no need for me to weigh in. Adobe has pretty much dug its own hole here. I spent too much time screaming and yelling and trying to get anyone to listen while I was there.
They like their strategy, so let ’em have it.
So if Adobe wants to provide the best for it’s customers why have they not re-written their products to run native on Intel Macs. How many years now has Apple been an exclusively Intel platform for Macs and still no native support from Adobe.
The real reason that Flash is not allowed to be ported is that it won’t work in the multi-tasking environment that Apple is providing in iPhone 4.0. It is not directed at Adobe Flash specifically, but at any apps that were not written to use the iPhone OS APIs.
Get a clue Adobe and Lee Brimelow. I call B.S. on Brimlow’s blog.
Adobe can’t possibly continue to employ this fool, because if they do they will be seen to endorse his comments. At the moment it’s just Brimelow saying “Go screw yourself Apple”. If he’s still in Adobe’s employ tomorrow, then it’s Adobe saying it.
If that happens, Apple has no choice but to protect itself and its users against Adobe’s aggression.
If you’re silly enough to own Adobe stock, sell it now.
@ Digital Mercenary
Er… not really. They DO run natively on Intel Macs. They just don’t use Cocoa APIs, they still use Carbon. And Carbon isn’t 64 bit and never will be. So I think that’s what you’re thinking of.
“In a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission Friday, Adobe identified Apple’s refusal to allow Flash on its devices as a “risk factor” for its business that could steer users toward “alternative technologies.”” (source: PC World)
Chickens. Home. Roost?
Brimstone seems all fiery now that Apple’s baked his mud hut.
I think they are feeling more and more pressure – you can do most of what Adobe CS does for less money using Apple products (final cut, aperture, iphoto, iweb, etc…)
“Personally I will not be giving Apple another cent of my money until there is a leadership change over there. …”
A leadership change? Oh really – go HTML5
Lee Brimelow did his company a great disservice by posting this. Truth be told, Mr Brimelow, your company, Adobe, did all it could to leave the Mac platform during Apple’s darkest period and especially during Apple’s Mac OS X transition. Who could forget Adobe’s announcement that Premiere would be Windows only apps. To add insult to injury Adobe began to ship Windows versions first before Mac OS versions because the current thinking then, Apple would be gone before the decade was out. When are the Cocoa version of Photoshop, Illustrator and After Effects going to be out? Those versions were supposed to be out three to four years ago. Hell, Apple made it easy for you when they transitioned to x86 processors and Mac users still ended being shafted by your company.
Steve Jobs would had given Adobe a lot of slack if your company, Mr Brimelow, supported the Mac platform firmly and consistently especially during 1998-2004 with first rate products not hand me down ports. Instead your company mistook Steve Jobs as a fool and Mac users as second rate customers just because Apple was financially struggling and it’s market share in less than 5 and now you are wondering why Mr Jobs does not want any of your products in it’s very popular mobile devices especially when your company is financially struggling .
So do not be surprised when Steve decides to stick to Adobe what it tried to do to Apple several years ago.
Amen to that statment Will. I could not agree more. I worked for Apple in the early 90s as a demo specialist for this new wonder program called Photoshop 1.0 exclusive to the Macintosh with the Apple QuickTake 100. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_QuickTake
After WINDOZE 95 was released it was downhill from there for Adobe and Apple. To this day I still have I’ll feelings toward Adobe and it’s business practices. I have vivid memories of Widoze PC Schmucks telling me that they had just discovered this WONDERFUL “NEW” photo manipulation program called Adobe Photoshop 3.0 for Windoze!!!! Adobe Fcked Apple HARD! Just Like Microdog with Office for the Mac. Good RIDANCE ADOBE! And I mean that in the most sincere way. FU Brimelow!!!!
He’s really comparing discontinuing CS software for OSX to this? Like, in the one case where people have invested thousands of dollars, spent years of their life learning their software, and have careers that depend on it. And in the other something for entertainment.
I get that he’s pissed that his companies code can’t be used. Fair enough. He has to say, “screw you Apple!” because Apple is saying, “Screw your and your shitty code, Adobe!” Understandable. But, Adobe, maybe if your shit worked better on Apple hardware/software, Apple wouldn’t be saying that.
His pretense of a noble Adobe and a mean, cruel, heartless Apple is pretty fscking lame. Adobe is just as mean, cruel, and heartless with regard to business.
So, screw you Adobe. Screw you and your Flash nightmare. Screw you and your motherfscker-to-install on Snow Leopard CS4. Thanks for PDFs, though. Those are lovely.
hugs, kisses, and donkey balls,
Johnson
adobe your outdated, spaghetti code is toast. I refer you to your recent sec filing which acknowledges you cannot live without apple. You blew it. Now lay yourself down on Apple’s trash heap.
Fortunately for Apple, most iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch customers care about the excellent user experience that Apple provides. Apple’s leadership and engineers obviously put a lot of thought and care into iPhone OS 4.0, and the efficient and controlled way it will do multi-tasking. By not supporting Flash from DAY ONE of iPhone, it’s not something users will “miss.” All this whining is mostly meaningless gibberish, and “Lee Brimelow, Adobe Flash Platform Evangelist,” should probably just shut up, because he sounds like an angry moron.
I think it is more of a defensive lash out. Adobe and Lee are scared and rightfully so. They thought they would be able to force their way on the iPhone/iPad platforms. Now, they realize that not only has Steve shut every door to the platform, but is convincing others to go away from Flash.
apple buys adobe and all is looking up again?
1-Flash is Spyware- it phones home-often and in a nosy fashion.
2-Flash is a resource hog.
3-Flash is poorly written shit software worthy of Micro$oftopoly.
4-Flash is the number one cause of Safari crashes.
Friends don’t let friends use Flash.
“…discontinue the Creative Suite products on OS X as a form of retaliation. Again, this is something that Adobe would never consider in a million years.”
Check your history Mr Brimelow. Your company did virtually that by refusing to support OSX when Apple gave Adobe the opportunity to serve your Mac customers early in the switch to the new OS. They were very rude to Mr Jobs personally, and claimed there weren’t enough Mac users to warrant going along. Yes, there was even talk Adobe was out to destroy OSX and force Mac users back to OS 9. Those of us who used PhotoShop and OSX (in other words EVERYBODY in the graphic communications field) had to switch to Mac Classic to use Adobe products. Perhaps no one has told you of our outrage, and how Adobe finally realized they needed their huge Mac base, which had all switched to OSX. Like I told my Adobe rep at the time: “Don’t make me choose between your products and my Mac; you won’t win that.”
OK, I am looking for an alternative to InDesign. Pages will NOT do it. Pages sucks compared to InDesign. Maybe Pages 4.0 will be good enough (if so, then Apple had better release it pronto).
We need alternatives to Photoshop and Illustrator. And I mean WORLD CLASS PROFESSIONAL alternatives.
For video, we already got the professional tools. We need alternatives to Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign.
Apple should just have bought FreeHand and PageMaker. Now Adobe owns everything in that corner.
This is just computer history. Adobe screwed Apple before, and now they are getting theirs back. I guess maybe Lee Brimelow is too young to know this.
Anyway, essentially HTML5 obviates the need for Flash, so it’s not really an evil thing but Apple is just moving the market to better technology (like it always does). Lots of folks want to stay the status quo (like Microsoft). That’s why we don’t get innovation.
“All we want is to provide creative professionals an avenue to deploy their work to as many devices as possible.”
Maybe they will learn to put the end user as their priority eventually. Why should we waste disk space and processor cycles and ram just to facilitate lazy programmers?
“apple buys adobe and all is looking up again?”
that is a Redmond strategy to retain the status quo.
Cupertino prefers to win by making the other guy obsolete.
CS5 Mac better better be the full Monty and run fast on iCore macs (multiple threaded using all processors, plugin optimized, 64 bit, optimized for more than the pissy graphics cards Apple sell) or it going to be a slow US summer for Adobe.
I believe that Steve and Apple have made their feelings about flash well known long before OS 4.0. Try when the first iPhone came out. Hahaha. Flash must and will die! And I wouldn’t miss Adobe’s CS suites ridiculious activation process. Or their huge updates. Reminds me of microslut.
Who is adobe?
wah wah wah…
Adobe blew it a long time ago… If it wasn’t for Photoshop, Mac users have no reason to use Adobe products.
It’s too bad Macromedia was bought out by Adobe. Outside of Photoshop, i don’t think Adobe was any better than Macromedia.
HTML 5… it’s about time…
now if hardware I/O standards: Light Speed would be pushed harder instead of another USB standard that would be awesome. Apple missed the opportunity it had for FireWire…
A question to all,
Do you think that two and a half hours to install Acrobat 9 on a ‘modern PC’ by a competent IT professional to be normal? Then crashes on start-up? Adobe has missed the boat.
I’d appreciate suggestions as to the best email address we could all use to provide Adobe upper management with our responses to Brimelow’s nastiness.
Wow… a lot of vitriole from a lot of people ( MacDN included ) that have no idea of what they’re talking about.
This is no different from how some banks and other websites block Safari for no apparent reason.
You all hate that, don’t you? Understand the issues, people, before you blindly put on your fanboy hats and wave hurrah.
If you don’t know anything about developing software you sound like an idiot on this issue.
C1,
Didn’t know that Adobe was past tense for you. Still, you’re 2 cents is appreciated!
I’m no apologist for Adobe; they have made some really dumb business calls that put them on thin ice. The Flash debacle — it runs on exactly ZERO smartphones today — has remarkably been turned by most commentators into a Steve Jobs hatefest.
But I think this article’s mudslinging encourages people to harden their views, not to reach a win-win solution.
Brimelow CORRECTLY notes that over the years, Apple and Adobe have profited greatly from their collaboration. Heck, without PageMaker, the Mac would’ve lacked its killer app and might have disappeared in the loud chorus of complaints about it being a “toy.” I know people who practically live in PhotoShop. They’d be thrilled to have a more capable product on their Macs, but until somebody else steps up, they’ll settle for a much better PhotoShop. Please!
Sooner or later, the blogosphere will turn on Adobe’s inability to put Flash on the Palms, the Blackberries, the WinPhones, and Androids and they’ll stop trying to make Apple the scapegoat. That’s a debate that MDN can influence, but not by ad hominem attacks on somebody who’s lashing out in pain.
At that time, perhaps Adobe will do a cool-headed evaluation of what their core competencies are, what their neat ideas are, and start acting like grownups. That is, IF they don’t get tricked into 8-year-olds’ type playground brawls like the name-calling here.
Jobs is playing rough, but basically is protecting the company’s interests by promoting its special features, fighting for mindshare while not letting others marginalize or commoditize the firm’s products. As a shareholder, “Bravo!” As a customer, I would like to see him throw down the gauntlet in a way that’d make it clear this issue is not about cojones.
None of turning the debate will be helped by this article’s misreading of Brimelow’s first few paragraphs, nor taunts about where he likes to buy music. (Most of my music comes from Amazon, too— then straight into my MacBook and thence onto my iPod & iPhone.)
If MDN wants to rally the troops, how about to get Adobe to cop to the fact that Flash on phones is (currently) a fantasy and that Apple has nothing to do with the problem. To have Adobe justify why their technology choices in Creative Suite haven’t been basically tantamount to telling Mac users to give up and buy Windows. To ask Adobe when will their Flash tools morph to HTML5 or some independent web standard, or to manage an open-source Flash reader that doesn’t suck eggs?
Apple and MDN you are total and complete hypocrites. What Apple is doing is probably going to spark an anti-trust lawsuit. Adobe has reached out to Apple to try and work with them to improve their mobile flash but Apple has refused (depriving their mobile customers access to 75 percent of web content that uses flash).
They are essentially trying to create a monopoly for html 5 by purposely blocking Adobe Flash and holding their content providers hostage by forcing them to switch over (even though many are ill equipped, have been using Flash for a decade, and don’t have the programming expertise to utilize html 5 which has much fewer development tools for it’s end users).
What you idiots don’t get – is Apple can force the mobile computing world that it has a chokehold on to abandon Flash, but desktops have and always will rule.
Microsoft sold 60 million copies of Windows 7 in 2010 alone. Think about that for a second. Windows XP, Vista, and now Windows 7 control 92 percent of the GLOBAL market share. The 5 percent share of Mac OS users is utterly inconsequential.
What I find even more ironic and hypocritical is that Apple continues to allow it’s Mac OS users access to Flash. If Flash is so evil, such a resource hog, so bad for the world – why isn’t it also banned on Mac OS. Think about that for a second you lemming brainwashed fanboy idiots.
In the end, Nobody gives a shit if Apple forces Adobe Flash out. The rest of the world will continue to use Flash whether you idiot fanboys, Apple, or MDN wants too or not.
P.S. MDN you talk a good game, but most of your videos are posted using flash and I can’t even access them in my iPhone as I read you lamenting about Flash. Hypocritical and stupid.
P.P.S Banning my IP address and deleting my posts won’t shut me up MDN. You are pathetic…
“For instance when opening a 50k PDF and waiting over 20 seconds for acrobat to activate and show me the PDF, I’ve already dragged it to apples preview application, read the PDF and closed it.”
This happens to me all the time. How can Adobe’s own product take so much longer to launch and load a PDF than Apple’s Preview?
Adobe needs to stop the bloat and get CS right, then replace Flash with a mindblowing HTML5 development tool that a designer could use. Adobe could own that market by offering the best product — they don’t have to own the platform.
If they don’t do it, something tells me Apple will.
@BiteMe, how exactly Is Apple creating an HTML5 “monopoly”?
It can’t be a monopoly if it isn’t owned by anyone, and is open to everyone.
Crazy how everyone who was mad at Apple for being so “closed” is now backing Adobe’s proprietary platform, and is mad at Apple for securing a future for the open approach.
If nothing else, the Adobe representative has demonstrated very juvenile behavior.
@MacNugget…
I’m with you there as far as Photoshop is concerned. Who else makes a world-class application that can approach it?
Yes, there are other applications out there with good features, but none that has the breadth and depth of Photoshop.
I’m not a fan of Illustrator… I sure wish Adobe would either resurrect Freehand or sell it to a developer who CARES about it.
What’s quite is funny is Adobe’s CTO, Kevin Lynch, has posted a fairly cool post, implying that Adobe aren’t too worried:
http://mediamemo.allthingsd.com/20100409/adobe-well-be-fine-without-apple/
But we have this blazingly hot post, showing that Brimelow, at least, is badly scared. It’s actually quite funny.
“This is a frightening move that has no rational defense other than wanting tyrannical control over developers and more importantly, wanting to use developers as pawns in their crusade against Adobe.”
It’s so overheated you almost see the steam coming out his ears.
It’s “frightening” – yes, we know you’re frightened, Brimelow!
There’s no just no “defense” but no “*rational* defense”.
It’s not just “control” but “*tyrannical* control”
Then we have these emotive terms “pawns” and “crusade”.
Brimelow thinks by piling up more and more extreme terms in a great heap, he’ll somehow force people to agree with him. And he has the cheek to use the word “rational”.
He just makes Adobe look weak and scared and dishonest. And all because Apple doesn’t want their platform to be “commoditized” by Adobe.
@ApplePi
“This is no different from how some banks and other websites block Safari for no apparent reason.
You all hate that, don’t you? Understand the issues, people, before you blindly put on your fanboy hats and wave hurrah.
If you don’t know anything about developing software you sound like an idiot on this issue”
Oh, it’s the same thing is it? There are a couple of surface similarities, I suppose: Apple and the Banks are both choosing to enforce their own platform and software decisions. But that is about all you can say.
So why would us “fan boys” say bully for Apple but be upset at banks? Maybe you should understand the issues first.
A bank website is on the open internet and is supposed to work on a standards compliant browser. That would be the professed aim. If they have “blocked” access to Safari for whatever reason, they can’ say it is for security or something (IE is the worst). It must be because they have been sold a crock by some blinkered “programmer” or company led by a salesman.
Apple’s platform is not the open Internet, and Apple’s stated aims and objectives are to create the best platform possible on their own device (which people are buying for it’s own sake).
People expect Internet banking to be, in fact, “Internet banking.” Just as they expect a phone to be, in fact, a “phone”. This would be like, if you bought the iPhone and got home and Apple’s all like, “what we actually meant was that you could make VOIP calls; OK, you can’t actually make real phone calls, but hey, what’s not to like? You can use it like a phone, can’ you?”
That’s my level of expectation for “Internet banking” worthy of the name. It is not my expectation for my moble device (my superior mobile device) to be able to run every half-a$$ed app from every crack-pot developer that wants to sell me an app. Sorry dude.
Firstly the comment from Mr Lee Brimelow, “Adobe would like me to make it clear that the opinions below are not the official views of the company and are entirely my own.”, are obviously a contrived smokescreen behind which Adobe is hiding to voice their own opinions. If Adobe really did not want Brimelow’s rant to be representative of Adobe’s true position then they could easily shut it down: either as his employer force him to remove the blog post, or, failing that, give him the pink slip. They have done neither – thereby making it patently obvious what their true position is. Which is good – because it shows that they are hurting with respect to Flash, and they can see that its days are numbered. Good, anyway they brought it on themselves.
The days of arrogant companies like Adobe or Microsoft ignoring (Internet) standards are coming inexorably to an end. I am not saying that Apple are saints, they are looking after their commercial interests, but they do not do that by hijacking standards (Microsoft 1) or by locking the Web into proprietary, poorly performing, platforms (Adobe 2).
Heck, Apple make a web browser rendering engine which they then share with the world. In comparison Microsoft spend years hijacking the web, forcing web developers to code websites to their abortion of a web browser (and try to spin that as a plus) and still with their latest iteration of IE can only fail with a score of 20/100 on the web standards Acid3 test (3).
Adobe is one of the worst companies in the technical space, cynically ripping off customers for years. To see that just compare prices of Photoshop between America and Europe (4). Do they think that people, I included being one of the people having been ripped off by them, would have any sympathy for them? Ha, they must be dreaming.
Anyway, to understand fully Mr Brimelow’s soapbox invective one only has to look at his title “Evangelist at Adobe focusing on [..] Flash, Flex, and AIR”. All of these Adobe products have the goal of, as stated in Adobe’s own words, of “Build [ing] cross-platform [..] applications”, and all of which are directly affected by Apple’s position regarding protecting their product (and customers) as stated in the iPhone OS 4 developer agreement.
Like any evangelist who discovers his ‘god’ (with a small g) is not really omnipotent he’s kinda unset. The truth hurts Lee, better get used to it.
To my mind this comment (5) below, referred to also by Gruber in Daring Fireball, sums up the issue with cross-platform layers/APIs well.
“In my experience so far with such ‘cross platform compatibility layers,’ they always produce results that water down each platform’s individual strengths and differentiations. And of course, instead of the developer being locked into the phone platform, they are locked into the compatibility layer’s platform.”
So Apple does not want itself, and users of its mobile space products, to be ‘beholden’ to Adobe, so? Should Adobe be surprised?
What goes around comes around, and it’s no longer 1997 guys.
———————————-
1 http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/04/iso-ooxml-convener-microsofts-format-heading-for-failure.ars
2 http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/iphone_agreement_bans_flash_compiler
3 http://acid3.acidtests.org/
4 Adobe Photoshop price: US online store $699, Europe online store $1,363 (based on EUR-USD currency conversion as at 10/4/10)
5 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1250946
I was good until somebody (Rike) brought up pagemaker. Then I was done. It was a world of hurt, a bag of shite, and the Adobe products that superceded it were.. one billlion times… better. We need a Godwins law for pagemaker.
Flash can get in through the backdoor for those who want it. Geohot just jailbroke the iPad.
http://iphonejtag.blogspot.com/2010/04/i-make-it-ra1n-on-themipads.html
BLOG UPDATE. CHANGES MADE AT REQUEST FROM ADOBE.
http://theflashblog.com/?p=1888
@BiteMe (A.K.A. “Marco” ?)
What Apple is doing is probably going to spark an anti-trust lawsuit.
Really? So, by trying to protect its reputation, and its users from crappy software, Apple will be open to an “anti-trust lawsuit”?
That’s like saying,
“We’re Moto-Z Car Manufacturer.
It’s come to our attention that oil company “Shill”, sells an automobile fuel that contains high levels of sugar, sand, and water.
We at Moto-Z are actively working to prevent our customers from having to use Shill-brand fuel in Moto-Z cars.”
– And then expecting an anti-trust lawsuit to come from the actions of Moto-Z.
BiteMe then writes,
The 5 percent share of Mac OS users is utterly inconsequential.
I won’t dispute your 5% claim. It’s unprovable either way, and it’s irrelevant.
What is relevant, is that Apple, and commenters on this story, have made no claims as to Apple’s market share being important to this issue.
Apple has not said,
“Waaah! We have 20% (or whatever) market share, and we deserve better treatment!!”
Apple is saying,
“We make great products for our valued customers, and we want our products to work optimally, and for our customers to be happy.
Adobe, your Flash product does not facilitate our goals at Apple.”
Do you see the difference, BiteMe?
(I doubt you do, or that if you do, that you care)
Also, if BiteMe wants to use the smaller marketshare of Apple as an excuse to treat Apple customers poorly, fine.
But if this “5%” marketshare is so inconsequential to the world of software, and to Adobe in particular, why this vitriolic response from Adobe, concerning the attempt by little wee, tiny, Apple, to ensure Apple products run smoothly?
Why doesn’t Adobe just say, “Apple who? … Oh, that Apple. Well, they’re so insignificant, they don’t really concern us.”
Instead, from Adobe, we read the screechingly infantile, “Screw you, Apple!”
– Sounds like Adobe thinks Apple is worth paying attention to.
BiteMe writes,
In the end, Nobody gives a shit if Apple forces Adobe Flash out.
– Interesting, BiteMe, because it certainly appears that Adobe “gives a shit”.
I understand your bitterness, BiteMe.
I once was like you.
I had invested so much money and energy and time into trying to make my Microsoft crap-boxes work, that to consider that Apple might be superior, was admitting that I had made a terrible, expensive, time-wasting mistake.
My ego didn’t want to accept that.
Neither does yours.
But when I was finally forced to switch, and I saw how my new Apple products made computing fun and easy, and my time productive, instead of being resentful that I’d switched, I was thankful that I had finally switched.
You will be too.
Adobe was once a great, innovative company. It still could reclaim it’s relevance. If you feel strongly that it’s policies and behaviour are flawed, you should communicate your opinion (politely!!!) to the Board of Directors.
http://www.adobe.com/corporateresponsibility/corporate.html
Thoughtful, civil arguments from customers can make a difference.
Hey Adobe, NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!
Zune Tang’s alter-ego?….
That’s a Professional spokesman for Adobe?! How embarrassing!
Another HUGE reason cross-compilers pose a difficulty is that the compiled code they generate can’t easily be checked for compliance to coding standards, the way source code can. Apple code must meet certain standards, and it can be challenging to do so with just any already-compiled binary.
Anyone who has tried to look at the output of any program that “translates” from one language to another or cross-compiles, has seen this. Garbage variable names for example: xy_16 = 4; l_23a = xy_16 / 2. HUH?
The generated output is gibberish to look at, impossible to understand or reverse engineer. You need the source code. And if the source code can be in any proprietary language or dev tool you want, then Apple has to have engineers on hand to know and be versant in lots of languages instead of one.
So once again there are often real, defensible reasons for the actions Apple takes. I say this as a 25 year software developer.
I have not worked with any other language than Basic (Q and GW). So I might be out to lunch on this but if you want to run an app that’s in a different “language”, doesn’t that take up more CPU due to “translating”, and could also cause instabilites?
Death to Adobe Flash.
I thought Adobe was for making bricks. Anybody up for a bricked iPhone?
I love how all of you try and defend the banning of Adobe under some banner of “we want to make the best products for our customers” and some how anti-trust behavior, is justifiable when there is a presumed altruistic motive?
Get a clue.
When Microsoft paired Internet Explorer with Windows, they made the argument that Explorer provided the most seamless experience for its Microsoft Windows customers, and under the auspice of providing the best experience for it’s customers, it paired the browser designed by Microsoft.
Note that Microsoft never banned you from using Flash, or another browser, they simply made you download it.
Microsoft was sued by the EU and forced to dismantle it’s Explorer from Windows and paid several hundred million dollars in fines.
Apple is doing something much worse. They are banning the use of Adobe in their products outright. Where are the “open development” people now to cry fowl?
Why do you assume Adobe will not try and develop their Flash product to make it better? Everything goes through development cycles? They have reached out to Apple but Apple flat out refuses.
Forcing people to use HTML 5 is creating an anti-competitive environment, the definition of a monopoly.
And why isn’t flash banned on Mac OS? Why don’t you fanboys try and answer even one of my points?
I bought Adobe Acrobat 4.0 about 10 to 12 years ago. I used it on Mac OS 8 and 9. When I switched to Mac OS X I was able to move Acrobat 4.0 over to a Windows machine since it was on a Windows/Mac disc for either platform. I’ve used it on both Windows Me (Horrible OS) and XP (SP 1 to 3). About 4 years ago, I downloaded a final update that made it fairly secure and, at long last, stable.
Acrobat 4 still does the job for me on the Windows side but waiting over 6 years for it to become stable on Windows was a sign that Apple and the Mac aren’t the only ones Adobe screws.
How come MDN removes posts that don’t agree with their opinion? I have had my post removed several time where I argue that iPhone should include flash as an option.
Is this your official policy MDN? Only Apple-ass-licking posts are allowed, the rest are deleted??
Truly utterly pathetic..you are like some stupid religious freak.
Brimstone
Lee Brimelow, Adobe Flash Platform Evangelist does a lot more than talk up Adobe products. He makes a damn good living teaching people how to use Adobe products. He uses many different teaching mediums. He influences thousands of web site designers and coders spreading flash throughout the internets.
He probably gets most of his money from Adobe but he has a really big dog in this hunt.
You can understand why he’s so pissed off. Apple is trying to kill off his livelihood.
I hope things get so bad that he has to attend someone else’s seminars to learn how to write Apps for Apple’s App Stores.
@ BiteMe,
HTML 5 is an open sourced, internet standard. How the hell can using an internet standard be anti-competative? Anyone can use it. Get your head out of your ass, man.
This is what Kevin Lynch, CTO for Adobe writes:
“I’ve been working with Flash for 11+ years and, lately, I’ve been considering developing for the iPhone in my spare time. My coworkers and I have several ideas for apps to write the simplest of which I could complete in Flash in about 45 minutes. Doing the same in Objective-C would take me months and it wouldn’t be nearly as well-designed, maintainable or stable.
We’ve been waiting for Apple to “thumbs up” the Flash/AIR packagers before we all shelled out hundreds of dollars to request Apple’s approval to write apps (which is ridiculous, BTW)! Now, given Apple’s latest moves, we’ll be keeping our money in our wallets and focusing our collective creativity on Android.”
I guess Adobe is giving up the fight, I mean why fight a war you can’t win. I really hope Apple is making the right call here, remains to be seen.
@ BiteMe,
Flash is not banned on Mac OS X because flash blocking software is readily available to all Mac users.
Points answered.
Here is a freebee. Adobe software has not worked very well on Macs for over 10 years. Whose fault is that?
Answer: Adobe.
@BiteMe,
“…Apple is doing something much worse. They are banning the use of Adobe in their products outright. Where are the “open development” people now to cry fowl?”
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, heard it all before. Get a clue yourself. Read your own quote: “…in their [Apple’s] products outright.” Get it? MS was doing the “bundling” on everyone else’s products (Dell, HP, IBM, Gateway, Sony, etc.). Not only that, the “bundling” is the least of it (heck, IE was “bundled” on the Mac desktop for a time).
The “much worse” part is what was going on in the back rooms. MS was threatening the PC makers and keeping them from putting any other browser on the desktop (or anywhere). They were witholding deals and threatening repercussions for any one who got out of line. If you can’t see the difference, you need to get a clue.
PC manufacturers couldn’t put Linux or other browsers on THEIR own products if they wanted to, despite having customers for it. This was dictated by another company.
Here we have Apple saying, “if you want to develop for our platform which runs on our hardware, and have your app supported and put in front of the end user, this is how you will develop for it.”
Really, what is it that you are not getting here? Is Apple interfering with what Nokia or RIM put on their hardware and platforms? Should Adobe be able to act like MS and dictate that their platform gets full consideration on all hardware that could conceivably be made to run it? I don’t think so. Get a clue or shut up.
@ Sefu,
“I really hope Apple is making the right call here, remains to be seen.”
Take my word for it Sefu, Adobe has virtually ignored Apple products for over 10 years. Adobe coders make shitty Mac OS X products. With over 100,000 developers already, iPhone, iPad and iPod touch users aren’t going to miss a thing.
Adobe also killed off Framemaker for OSX. That was inexcusable. It was the premier application for generating technical documentation. Apple even use it to create their own manuals. There was nowhere left to go except to a PC (virtual or otherwise).
Adobe has no friends here.
So, Apple writes a language that is the standard development language for it’s apps….
Urm, excuse me… Don’t EVERY software developer do that???
Go back under your rock and stop drinking the adobe coolaid!
And regarding flash, firstly flash was invented as an animation tool NOT a tool for creating websites!!
Using flash to make a website is like treading in tar. It’s a pain in the ass to update a flash site as you almost have to recreate the site again!
What adobe SHOULD be doung is writing a piece of software that is designed from the ground up to create rich media websites.
They should have stopped flash years ago – it’s crap.
Also, it’s a proprietry system that relies on the user to manually update the flash player.
This don’t work in this age of open standards.
Adobe, stop development of flash and create a piece of software that is easy to use and designed for it’s purpose.
I find all of this amusing. I like Apple products and as long as I do, I’ll use them. I like Adobe CS, it may be bloated but they’re great tools. Don’t care about their battle at all.
Adobe has everything to lose from Apple’s AppStore ecosystem and they’re hurting. And lack of Flash is a business decision first. It may be crap technology, but being able to build customer Flash apps in mobile Safari would be bad for apps… and that’s the reason Apple has not enabled it.
U mac fanboys are so ignorant it’s scary. Let me state some facts:
Flash is a application platform and cannot be replaced by HTML5, ever. Any developer like myself that has worked with Flash would (or should!) know this. HTML5 is just a (unfinished) mark up spec with limited functionality. Flash and it’s coding language are far more advanced.
Action Script 3.0 which Flash uses is more like a C language. The software itself is also by far the best for web animation and vector based graphics, as it’s animation and drawing tools are excellent, you can even use Flash solely for drawing or creating images, as it’s tools are almost as good as Adobe Illustrator for this. In the latest Flash you even have bone tool, which makes creating and animating characters a lot easier. Again, HTML5 is just a markup spec, it has no animation features and tools for such things, you can write a HTML5 website in notepad.
The whole point that everyone is getting upset about is the way Apple is going about all of this. They are using bullying tactics to get rid of a competing product this type of sh$t does not fly any more. If Apple truely feels that flash is bad & HTML5 is better why not let the consumer decide give the choice to the consumer if HTML5 is that much better then it should win hands down. But Apple just took that choice away form the end user because it is afraid that it will lose control of things like the app store if flash was to catch on in things like the iphone. Wouldn’t you like the choice when you first turn on your shiny new iphone or ipad to say hell no Adobe flash I don’t want you on my hardware frack off I like HTML5 better. But no you don’t get that choice it was made for you by Apple so that $500 hardware is not really yours I guess you just are renting it from Apple so what they says goes.
@Chrissyone,
What I meant to say is that they have never optimized their code for Mac on Intel. They are still doing fat binaries.
In addition, there has been little or no effort to modernize the UI.
@ Brimstone
“But no you don’t get that choice it was made for you by Apple so that $500 hardware is not really yours I guess you just are renting it from Apple so what they says goes.”
Right. Just like your car, TV, DVD player, lawnmower, dishwasher, blender, washer & dryer, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, walkman, wristwatch, surround sound system, refrigerator, and toaster you’ve even bought. These things are not yours, you only rent them from the people who built them.
What’s the difference? You want complete control of a device…? Linux awaits you in many fine products. You can go buy them right now.
But the iPad isn’t for you. It’s for people who don’t care about development tools, or runtimes, or clock cycles. And there are orders of magnitude more of those people in the world than there are of you. And most of those people don’t have a computer yet. Apple is interested in selling computers to new people, and their primary goal for those people is to give them a seamless user experience. That’s it.
In doing that, Apple evidently does not want to fall into the same trap that Windows is still stuck in – slavish devotion to backward compatibility that limits how a platform can grow and change. MS can’t cut the cord and start over, because they have a whole economy based on their current architecture. If they want to make big changes, it causes all sort of problems and breaks those runtimes. It’s hard to start over, but Apple have done it several times, like when they jettisoned their entire OS and built one on top of UNIX, or when they changed processors.
So the question is – do you really think Apple hasn’t done the math on this? Why should Apple allow a runtime environment (that was not designed for a touch device) that they will be then responsible for staying compatible with? The answer that so many folks are trying to make me believe is that there is this vast, rich community of Flash developers that will then migrate to another platform and hurt the App store.
But it seems to me that with all the tens of thousands of App store apps, and the level of quality that even the crummy ones have, and the incredible creativity and variation that’s found in the best of them, that the App store is doing just fine without Flash. Or Java or Silverlight. And I tend to think that Apple knows what it is talking about when it comes to performance and power management, and if this is how they need to operate to build the best system for all those millions of people who don’t give a shit about Flash, then so be it.
So what then, is Apple’s incentive? Just to placate you? Or all those amazingly talented Flash developers that gave us “Get a Free iPhone” banners or Sorority Life? You really think they’d put the whole platform on the line for that?
All Steve is saying is “Write an app for *my* system, plz”. Not for Adobe’s system so it can perform like a port on every platform.
And no, Apple is not BANNING ADOBE FROM THE SYSTEM OUTRIGHT. Adobe is free to use the same tools everyone else does, even if those tools don’t directly enrich Adobe. They make a couple of fine iPhone apps already, and they have a new iPad app called Ideas for making quick sketches, and there’s no reason they can’t make more.
But stop thinking that Flash or any other runtime on the iPhone OS is ever going to happen. It’s *not* going to happen. At least not any time soon or in any form that’s currently out there. There are a few good reason to include it, but there are millions more reasons NOT to.
@MDN: Pixelmator is a nice little program, but I hope you’re not suggesting that it is a full-fledged replacement for Photoshop. Because it isn’t and will never be. Only a very silly person would think that. With all its faults, Photoshop is still the big dog in the image editing universe.
@ Digital Mercenary
“In addition, there has been little or no effort to modernize the UI.”
No, actually there has been a tremendous ‘effort’, it’s just that not everyone likes what the effort has produced. But that said, I agree that the UI doesn’t demonstrate any real forward thinking, it just tries to organize all the same old buttons and switches in a pleasing manner. (using Flash!) I find it increasingly difficult to use because Adobe ignores the conventions of both platforms. In fact I really don’t use CS apps much at all any more, aside from the occasional layered PS project. I except Lightroom from this because LR was built outside the CS suite and has it’s own (beautiful, in my opinion) UI that would lend itself well to multitouch. If that ever happens now…
You two are the only ones who get it.
People think you can just replace Flash with HTML 5, but like you said, HTML5 has no development tools. It’s just a mark-up.
Many websites don’t have the staffing, resources, or expertise to publish using HTML 5 and Adobe has filled a need with relatively straight-forward developer tools.
The other point is exactly how Apple is going about this; using bullying tactics to force Adobe out of the equation. Even Woz doesn’t like the way Apple is going – but of course MDN and the rabid idiot fanboys on this website tore him down for going against Jesus, I mean Jobs.
It’s a losing battle on here, like arguing with a brick wall.
And to the idiot who thinks that “Mac OS has readily available Adobe blocking software” are you $ucking serious?
If Apple banned Flash from Mac OS, people would burn down Apple headquarters. You can get away from limiting people to 25% of online animation/video content on an iPhone or iPad, but if you tried pulling that $hit on their desktop environment, people would just go back to windows.
Nothing is as revolutionary as getting a broken flash box while trying to read a website.
It is with great pleasure to see Apple screwing so many partners! In the end, Apple will lose out when all these companies work against Apple…
In the end consumers will have more variety with other companies and Apple will be limited because companies will start to move away from partnering with Apple.
Keep it up Apple! I want to see this all unfold. It will hit you in the ass in the future.
And Adobe sees no puck, where next?
That’s innovation and progress.
You’re tooooo slow and snobbishly ad-ob-atic.
Adobe, learn to skate, eh?
Apple is.
@ Just lovely…
“It will hit you in the ass in the future.”
You’ve got it back to front ol’ chap. *This* is the ass whoopin’.
@Rike
“Aldus Pagemaker 4.0 was a great product. It was totally screwed up once Adobe bought it.”
Aldus Freehand was great too. Freehand under Macromedia was good also. It’s a shame that Adobe just killed it, ‘cuz I always liked it better than Illustrator.
@botoncandy
I agree with you. I love Freehand and still use it everyday alongside with Illustrator.
Time for Apple to splash some money buy Pixelmator, pump serious resources into it & replace Photoshop as the Pro choice.
Nothing could better show how worried and desperate this company is becoming and all down to their own stupidity.
Is it a self-threading screw?
Self-defeating, maybe.
Here in AZ the Ipad has a fatal flaw. 95 degree Fahrenheit operating limitation. So much for reading outside or using it as a laptop replacement. If I leave it in the car while I run into a restaurant it will be to hot to start up for at least 30 minutes.
Second, most of the really good stock market sites use (Java, Silverlight and Flash). Without these technologies most of the sites become useless.
I applaud Apple for most of their design decisions but temperature ceiling issues and applications issues will force me to demure on an Ipad at this time.
demur
Adobe could not organise a piss-up in a brewery.
The ABC (and more recently the BBC) have enabled a check on their RTMP streams known as SWF Verification. This requires that, approximately every 60 seconds, an application streaming from their servers respond in a particular way to a ‘ping’. Unfortunately for everyone, Adobe have decided to take the legal option of sending cease and desist letters to open source projects who implement this ‘feature’. Disturbing don’t you think?
You know how you can tell Adobe is really scared?
Because they’re sending paid shills to come defend them on MDN.
@Brimstone
You make your parents proud!
Bless them for raising such a superior child that seems to know it all and not allow his judgement be cloud by their experience. My parents also passed on their experience, their knowledge and a warning of what to expect from “learning the hard way”.
Parenting skills has a place in development.
Adobe has BIG plans to be revealed Monday!!!!!!
http://cs5launch.adobe.com/
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashcs5/appsfor_iphone/
Do you really think Pixelmator is better than Photoshop? I guess you are not a graphic designer. If Adobe decides to stop making software for Mac, I’ll buy a PC. Not that big of a deal.
If I could post a comment to Brimelow, it would be that because of Adobe’s BS of recent years … and in particular their crap support for OS X … I’ve already cut back my spending on Adobe products by over 70%.
Apparently, Brimelow doesn’t believe he has to worry, since the total of my contributions to their bottom line is still less than $100K. But I figure that I’ll hit that number in another 2-3 years worth of “Adobe Tax Avoidances”.
-hh
(thanks Sefu)
And for Kevin Lynch, CTO for Adobe writes:
“I’ve been working with Flash for 11+ years and… I could complete in Flash in about 45 minutes. Doing the same in Objective-C would take me months…”
Without him also saying that he has 11+ years deep experience with Obj-C, this statement is utterly devoid of credibility.
“We’ve been waiting for Apple to “thumbs up” the Flash/AIR packagers before we all shelled out hundreds of dollars to request Apple’s approval … we’ll be keeping our money in our wallets…”
A reliable predictor of how Big/Small of a Fish a client is the language that they use. Here, Mr. “Big Fish” is worried around _hundreds_ of dollars…
…perhaps he should go to the Adobe Store and see how much his own company’s products cost for EACH individual product upgrade, to see if those of us who each have thousands (personal) to easily tens-of-thousands (small office) invested in their product lines have any sympathy whatsoever for his personal whine….er, I mean ‘plight’.
-hh
“If Adobe decides to stop making software for Mac, I’ll buy a PC.”
Because Boot Camp was suddenly sucked into a tear in the space-time continuum? I’ll alert the media.
“Because they’re sending paid shills to come defend them on MDN.”
They’re not paid. That’s even funnier.
‘Brimelow continues…. “Go screw yourself Apple.” ‘
I hope that statement makes it clear exactly how DEGENERATE Adobe has become over the years. Nothing more need be said.
Adobe screwed themselves when the got into bed with Monkey Boy and MicroSloth
Ah…impersonating me are ya?
But I agree with my other self here.
Really terrible article. Windows lowest denominator? I have mac and windows and I really appreciate the flexibility of windows. Why do people visit this website??
To be enlightened by you
Flash will always rule and the only thing macs have going for them are the fact that any MORON can use them(which isn’t saying much). You can’t customize anything. All apple is about is money. The reason they don’t want flash is because it will screw over their billion dollar app store. If people can build apps or obtain apps for free that use flash, then how will greedy apple make any money? And the Ipad is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen in my life. Minimal storage and you can only do one thing at a time? How many idiots wasted money on that pointless product. How many of you mac retards actually went out and bought that thing?
All of us
Okay well after reading some comments i wanted to point at
“Comment from: Derek Currie- ‘Brimelow continues…. “Go screw yourself Apple.” ‘
I hope that statement makes it clear exactly how DEGENERATE Adobe has become over the years. Nothing more need be said.”
Yeah just because someone says that doesnt mean the entire community that opposes Apple have no point and Adobe is different then Adobe users. You find and angry user saying screw you apple and you blame adobe I hope that makes it clear how IDIOTIC that makes you an apple USER has become over the years.
How come Flash works great in all other technologies except Apple’s? Don’t you guys find that fishy? Maybe they are making up stories about why flash is bad for money reasons?
Oh my god!
You have all managed to get bought into the bullsh!t that Apple & Steve Jobs hand out!
If the Adobe flash player were SO bad, and Apple were so strong against : Quote “Flash is a proprietary, resource-hogging, browser-crashing abomination and we don’t want ported…” then how come it still works on a Mac desktop/laptop?
If it were so bad surely it would be removed from those too!?
It’s more a case of Apple wanted to control EVERYTHING that goes onto one of their devices. It has NOTHING to do with a player that apple never had a problem with until the iPhone came along and more to do with loosing control of the applications that go through the apple store – I.E if it were built in flash Apple would get NO money for the app…
Now don’t get me wrong – thats their choice. Where it becomes plain WRONG is when they expect you and I to shell out hundreds of pounds/dollars on their latest incarnation and then refuse to allow US to do what we want with OUR OWN EQUIPMENT?!
how about waking up, stop speed wanking over pictures of Steve Jobs and move on? surely everybody is sick of you all moaning?
sheesh
http://techie-buzz.com/tech-news/scribd-joins-microsoft-and-apple-in-ditching-flash-for-html5.html
Generic coward ‘MyOwnMind’ spews: “You have all managed to get bought into the bullsh!t that Apple & Steve Jobs hand out!”
No actually. We the customers brought these issues to Apple’s attention. If you think Adobe-Bashing was created at Apple, you’re either deliberately ignorant or plain stooopid.
Your assessment of the situation is so ridiculous that I can only conclude that you have had no experience surfing the web on a Mac using the Adobe Flash Player plug-in.
So please STFU until such time as you’ve done your homework and have something intelligent to add to the conversation.
Well Derek – thanks for your reply…..
So the flash player is a pain in the arse on the Mac then? strange as i have seen no probs with using it on a PC…..
Please don’t assume to know or understand any of my experience – I don’t assume yours or anybody elses.. In my job i spend a lot of time using both machines on the net. Yes i use the PC moreso as it’s my main tool. personal choice, no more no less.
What i HAVE noticed though is a pathetic argument between Apple & Adobe all because of the flash player on hand held devices. It has NOTHING to do with the player/adobe on any other apple product. These “problems” were never heard of before the iPhone and it’s clear it is a defense mechanism of Apple to blame Adobe.
Now don’t get me wrong – Adobe are also being just as childish with their accusations too. Where it’s all getting daft is with everybody buying into the bullshit of one camp or another and not reading between the lines.
Adobe want their player to be on the most popular phone the planet has ever seen and are having a fit because apple say no. Apple are making up some bullshit reason because they would lose control of the app development. —– see, read between the line to get to the truth!!
Also – do not tell me to shut the f*** up either – this is an open comment area. you not like what you read? fine, reply to it though don’t ask me to be quiet…!
Dear generic coward “MyOwnMind”:
I yawn in your general direction.
Skip the homework and go directly to bed before I spank you. You’re over-tired and ranting like a village idiot. You’ll feel better in the morning. THEN do your homework! THEN come back and try again.
I agree with everyone about how Adobe is sorta an inflated tird. They charge so much for their Creative Suites that I have been forced to reverse engineer their Dynamic Link Licenses.
Not that I have to use their products. The only product that I absolutely have to have is Illustrator. Other than that. Aptana, Netbeans, Gimpshop, and just about anything else that I use.
Snagit, Camtasia, 5 browsers, and also Itunes. Runs fine in Wine.
I switched back to OpenSuse 11, and couldn’t be happier. This pc has no graphics card, and it runs creative suite better than a pc with more ram, and a graphics card.
Go Figure, Adobe had to get their noses into coding. That is a Macromedia Job to me.
So yeah. Stay away from CS5.5, it is just a foolish update to force people to want to upgrade.
I haven’t ever spent more than 40 bux on an adobe product.
That was due to the Flex Training source book I bought.
Adobe is just like Microsoft. They don’t like their competition. So they find a way to buy them out.
Goodbye most of Novell, Sun, and also Vmware. You were doing to well to not be engulfed by the company that holds back technology, and also tries to re-invent the Dos Box.
lol
Go with ext3, not NTFS
Yes, Apple is the tyrannical blah blah blah. The same company that was the first to establish a fair pricing structure for digital music downloads and take control of hardware away from mobile phone carriers – they just want to screw consumers.
In contrast, Adobe, by keeping alive bad software for their own profit, are the champions of consumers!
Brimelow continues, “Personally I will not be giving Apple another cent of my money until there is a leadership change over there…”
Guess what? The leadership has changed. Get yer wallet out! 🙂
A great thread. And good to have both C1 and Ampar joining in. Just like old times. Ah….. nostalgia.
Microslot is ditching Flash also.
This blogger’s rant is yet another reason to wish I were a member of some other species.
Brimlow is an asswipe lying ass dog piece of shit.
Let’s layoff Lee!
I found the original blog and wanted to gloat, but the loser turned off comments. lol