“Why? For most of the same reasons why I don’t expect the iPhone OS ever to support Flash,” Gruber writes. “Flash is the leading cause of application crashes on Mac OS X. It is buggy. It’s inefficient. Presumably The Tablet is going to have a faster CPU and more RAM than an iPhone, but that doesn’t mean Apple isn’t going to treat CPU cycles and memory as any less precious than they do on the iPhone.”
Gruber writes, “As I wrote in February 2008, correctly predicting that Apple would not be adding Flash support to iPhone OS: ‘As it stands today, Apple is dependent on no one other than itself for the software on the iPhone. Apple controls the source code to the whole thing, from top to bottom. Why cede any of that control to Adobe?'”
“To my knowledge, Apple controls the entire source code to the iPhone OS,” Gruber writes. “That’s not to say they wrote the whole thing from scratch. Many low-level OS components are open source. But they have the source. If there’s a bug, they can fix it. If something is slow, they can optimize or re-write it. That is not true for Mac OS X, and Flash is a prime example. The single leading source of application crashes on Mac OS X is a component that Apple can’t fix.”
There’s much more in the full article, “Tablet Musings,” here.
[Thanks to MacDailyNews Reader “MacVicta” for the heads up.]
Flash is the scourge of the internet…next to M$.
Flush Flash!!!
Can’t decide which is worst – Flash or Pelosi. LOL!
…. and that’s why I have click-to-flash on my browser. Unless I really need to watch something in flash, I don’t have to worry about Safari slowing down or crashing!
No FLASH? I hate to see this dead on arrival
Flash causes havoc on my safari browsing.
Flash has been flaunted as “must have”. We’ve gotten this far without it (iPhone). I think we’ll be just fine.
Apple could fix Flash if they bought Adobe. But perhaps not supporting it will force Adobe to address the bugs?
Apple has learned its lesson about not ceding control of an important part of its user experience to a third party. There will be no flash on the tablet, just like the iPhone.
I remember when I got my first iPod and there was no good way to plug it into my car. I thought, “Surely Apple can’t expect the entire automotive industry to change to accommodate their product.” But that was exactly what Apple expected, and now many (most?) cars have iPod kits standard or optional.
Its the same with the web. People say “Surely Apple can’t expect the entire Web to be re-written to accommodate the fact that Apple won’t use flash.”
But the Web will be re-written without Flash. Good riddance.
HTML 5 people, HTML 5. Can’t wait for it, the real death of Flash.
Why would the iSlate support Flash? It’s meant to
be nothing more than a new vessel to purchase iTunes content. If you had Flash, you’d have a hell of a lot less dependence on iTunes and that’s no good as far as Steve’s concerned.
The iSlate is gearing up to be a big ass iPod touch with a few extra features, not the remarkable device in some of our imaginations. Just like the Apple TV, everything you’re expected to do with it will revolve around iTunes. It’ll be a portable iTunes media player, not a tablet computer.
And, now that Apple owns Quattro Wireless, they can even be at the forefront of showing how those “ad” people can still get their point across using HTML5.
I don’t think Flash is going anywhere because there are MANY Windows systems (and other portables) that run it well enough for their users. But those companies that took their Flash content and quickly exported it as an iPhone app format have GOT to be happy that they’ve got an excuse to monetize their “Free” Flash game.
Who wants to support processor abusive software?
Unplug Flash.
Of course it won’t support flash, it uses too many CPU cycles. A portable device can’t afford sloppy coding.
@Dmitri – And not a moment too soon. Adobe has been on my list since they started charging royalties for PostScript, their supposed always-going-to-be-free page description standard that they suckered the world into adopting. They deserved to die then.
To make running of Flash optional, I also use (and recommend) ClickToFlash — http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/ .
Flash down the toilet… but what I hate equally is that every single web page now is infested with useless google ads that are made to look like content.
Someone make a filter to block this crap.
I am all for accepting ads that support the site owners, but this is ….
Flash rocks! I hope it is included!
adobe needs to follow google…
create a real device, put flash on it and see it fail
The iPod Touch is already a pocket computer. If the ‘iSlate’ is gearing up to be a big ass iPod Touch with a few extra features, then it’s going to be a tablet computer.
Hipp Hip Hooray!!!!
It sounds like you don’t own an iPod Touch (or iPhone). My “Touch” is more useful that my M$ XP Pro box at work (yes, the IT department is smart enough to off Vista and 7ista). I use of my MacBook Pro at home half as much as I did before getting my “Touch”.
I will be getting an “iSlate” (whatever the name)!
I’m a bit of a Flash developer. I admit it’s done to death on the internet, but for cartoon animation’s (what I do) that don’t involve a lot of scripts, it’s pretty cool. Seriously why do people hate it, what’s causing problems? Can anyone recommend an alternative that can do frame by frame animation and tweening. Serious question, I am curious.
@Garry,
Go ahead and use Flash as an animation tool… Nobody’s saying you can’t. But, you don’t have to deploy to SWF! Instead, export to h.264 mp4 at different resolutions so anybody can view your work, regardless of what platform they’re on – including AppleTV, iPhone, iPod touch, and even “slate” (or whatever it turns out to be) users.
John Gruber writes a cute headline grabbing question about flash – BUT – that is not the REAL and important question about the upcoming tablet.
The real question is will third party developers have Mac like access to the tablet or will everything have to go through Apple?
There are advantages to both. I for one, like the worry free universe of the iPhone. I can install, or tell my family and friends to install anything they want without worrying about that software mucking things up.
Question #2 – Now that Apple is buying AdMob, will AdMob be distributing Flash ads in the future?
Gruber: “iPhone OS”. <–No. It’s OS X, modified specifically for the iPhone.
Gruber: “Me? I think The Tablet is going to be running its own Whatever-the-Name-of-the-Tablet-Is OS.” <– No, you stunning dunce. It would, if it existed, be OS X modified specifically for the iPhone.
Q: If one has the single most secure and stable commercial OS on the planet, why would one create some new OS just for a tablet?
A: One wouldn’t.
The fact is that OS X is entirely able to run software supporting Flash. So why is Apple so reluctant to provide that support? Because FLASH SUCKS. As Apple clearly pointed out in the press, Flash is the #1 cause of browser crashes, in ANY browser, anywhere on the Internet. So one would want to support bombing your customer’s Internet experience because why? One wouldn’t.
But Gruber is fundamentally wrong in the first place. OS X on the iPhone already DOES support Flash, as found on YouTube, which was supported in the very first iteration of the iPhone onwards.
Conclusion: Gruber is off his trolley wheels, wasting our time with nothing coherent to say.
Now, that is a coveted feature. If Adobe does not take the time to fix Flash on the Mac, it is only a bloated insecure unstable technology that is primarily used in annoying distracting obnoxious ads. If Adobe fixis it, then they can complain.
@R2
What the heck do you know about what Apple is about to announce? I bet you are wrong in more then one level. Apple will not make a big deal over a oversized iPod Touch. Apple would not have taken 2 to 3 years developing an oversized iPod Touch.
Although I agree that iTunes will be central to the tablet, it will only be part of it. Besides, you don’t know how iTunes will be revamped.
Why is everyone here knocking Flash? Don’t you ever want to be able to take low-light pictures with your iPhone?
Waiting for updates from Adobe is pointless. For the past 10 years, they’ve avoided fixing even minor bugs in their programs. They just crank out a new bloated version of CS and ignore the fact that there were problems with earlier versions.
They’re laying off people, not developing product. We are almost through replacing their products with other, better (for us) solutions. No more annual $150 upgrade fees.
No 64 bit flash? Every browser is affected. Meanwhile, it’s become a hugh security hole, performance killer, and something I really don’t want to deal with.
@derekcurrie
1) YouTube encoded all their videos to h.264 specifically for these devices. Flash never runs on the iPhone OS.
2) iPhone OS is a modified version of OS X (at least built on it’s foundation). So will the iSlate OS. That’s all Gruber is saying. Apple has referred to it as “iPhone OS” as well.
3) Gruber is not a stunning dunce.
For a site that takes Microsoft to task about its evilness; why do I keep seeing Bing popups on every MDN turn?
“Although I agree that iTunes will be central to the tablet, it will only be part of it. Besides, you don’t know how iTunes will be revamped.”
Yeah, right. Just like it’s “only part of” the iPhone/iPod touch.
I don’t care how much they revamp it, the bottom line is that it’ll be a closed device in which Steve Jobs will dictate what you can and cannot do with it. You’ll be sitting around with your thumb up your ass waiting for him to add the simplest features that seem obvious to us but take them forever to implement (like two years for a goddamn landscape keyboard on the iPhone).
Steve is good when it comes to creating an intuitive, sexy vehicle but his imagination is quite austere when it comes to how far and how fast you can drive it.
The take-away from the article:
Apple can always add Flash with a software update should they need to; they can never remove it if it was there in the first place.
@R2;
Hate to burst yer bubble (not really), but the reasons you choose to bash Apple over? Those are the very things making them a success in the market today.
People, by the hundreds of millions, want computers/smart phones et al to become appliances.
You can sit around with your thumb up your ass for as long as you’d like wishing otherwise, but the age of the control freak geek is dead.
People have spoken, they’re voting with their wallets, and they PREFER Apple’s model.
Adobe is actively antagonistic against Apple. They will never fix Flash. With their incompetent programmers, I don’t even think they know how to fix it.
@DudeMac
Just because most Mac users prefer not to purchase Microsoft products doesn’t mean that MDN should not accept advertising money from M$ to continue advocating and supporting the Mac cause. Unless, of course, you are willing to foot the bill to keep MDN going…
I personally choose to shun Bing because I don’t trust M$ further than I can throw Ballmer. But the choice is up to you and other readers. All I can say is, “Bing at your own risk.”
@qka
If Apple ever incorporates Flash on the iPhone OS, then it will be encounter a tremendous backlash if it ever tries to remove it. Once the cat is out of the bag it is very difficult to stuff it back in. That is why I applaud Apple wholeheartedly for its upfront decision not to include Flash rather than making the easy and obvious concession to pundits and the masses. Apple is willing to shed the dross and take the heat for it, and that results in a better user experience for all of us and steady evolution of computer design and interfaces. M$, on the other hand, tries to cater to all people, which satisfies few and often leads to dead-end products. I don’t suppose that you have used a Big A$$ Table lately?
The bottom line is that it won’t matter if it’s a closed device in which Steve Jobs will dictate what you can and can’t do. The iPhone proves that.
So what’s your point?
John Gruber’s article is concise and logical. Apple will continue to ride the horse that that got them here during the 2000’s. I would love for Apple to open up iTunes to sales from indies along the same lines as the App Store. And I would also wholeheartedly applaud the sale of ebooks along the same lines. It would undercut Amazon and pull in a lot of business at the same time.
@Logan
Just to emphasize what you said:
1) YouTube encoded all their videos to h.264 specifically for these devices. Flash never runs on the iPhone OS.
Occasionally when browsing on your iPhone, you’ll see a YouTube video with a slash through the play icon, and clicking it doesn’t work. These are videos that YouTube has yet to convert, that are stored only in Flash.
——RM
Why does anyone care??? What is Flash actually good for except obnoxious advertising and badly-designed, gimmicky websites?
Disagree. With the iPhone, processing power and battery drain was a major issue. And flash animations on a device the size of an iPhone didn’t add too much to the experience of the device.
A tablet is different. As much ad it sucks , Flash is everywhere. For Apple to neglect its in inclusion for purposes of “making a point” wouldn’t be smart for a device it wants to push in volume.
McGruber!!
Is there a good alternative to flash for rapidly producing robust cartoon “interactive” graphics used in many instructional applications for kids?
“Why does anyone care??? What is Flash actually good for except obnoxious advertising and badly-designed, gimmicky websites?”
And I’m still amazed, amazed, at how many websites have their home pages in flash, with no way to avoid it! WTF are they thinking?
Flash! BOOM!!! end of flash…yaaaaaa!
Good riddance.
No Flash = feature
Flash = boat anchor
If they don’t put Flash into the tablet, it won’t be able to compete with real computers. No one wants a product that is the same size as a smaller computer, but can’t run the Internet like one. If they do implement Flash, they’ll have to put it on the iPhone.
This post, the original article and the comments are so riddled with BS and utter rubbish it is hard to know where to begin.
For starters, the utterly stupid assertion that Flash is “the single biggest cause of application crashes on OS X” is a total load of codswallop and destroys any credibility in the article. Where is the data to back this idiocy up?
The whole crapola about “controlling the software” is BS as well, what about Javascript? Does Gruber know anything about the web at all? Does he even know how modern browsers work?
Flash is here to stay because literally millions of web applications depend on its media extensions that make a brain-dead web browser into something half-decent for audio, video and games. Is Flash perfect? Far from it, but is there any way Microsoft, Google and Apple could agree on an open standards replacement? Maybe, but don’t hold your breath. HTML 5 is years away and may still never be able to play HD video so it will be useless. Oh, and Adobe pays the codec royalties (ever heard of MPEG LA?) so we don’t have to.
The ommission of Flash from the iPhone is somewhat understandable from a technical point of view but is mainly about Apple not wanting to allow an end-run around the App Store. If iPhone web-apps were too powerful they might cannibilize that little earner that unexpectedly dropped in Apple’s lap there.
Now, the ommission of Flash from the purported iSlate to protect the App Store would be pretty stupid in the short term, but Apple may just have enough clout now to make major sites build Flash-free alternative navigation for iPhone/iSlate visitors. (Many do already). Game developers (especially casual game people) are already moving to native iPhone app versions, but that market will never be as big as the general web, no matter how powerful Apple becomes, and their walled garden will never support the wild and innovative explorations that the general, Flash-and-other-plug-in-powered web can.
You are right but that’s the wrong answer.
Thinking that flash is good is bad.
Thinking that no other alternative can exist is really bad.
So, it is Ok to use Flash as a tool to create cartoons or movies, (Wade, that’s a good use for it) as long as the final output doesn’t involve having to use Flash to run it (flv or swf). OK cool. Still no alternative programs to use?
Sorry Wade I meant alansky. As an artistic tool it’s great, for simple one frame after the other movies. Final product being a H264, mov or mp4 no worries, who knows where it came from. I agree the scripting and coding can be a pain. I don’t do a lot of that interactive stuff. But it should simply be a matter of installing the free plugin to make things work.
The big reasons Flash Sucks:
1) Flash is a massive CPU hog. Now that I can stop Flash from loading into web pages, I no longer have my Mac running its fan non-stop trying to cool the abused CPU. This problem is entirely able to be controlled in code. Adobe, however, are too lazy to bother limiting Flash access to the CPU after animations/movies have played. They just keep on eating the CPU for lord knows what. Incredibly sloppy coding.
2) Flash is NOT secure, even to this day. Adobe have the ability to stop this problem as well. Instead they have what are called ‘Flash Cookies’ on by default. The easy solution is a simple note asking if the user would like to allow any one particular Flash file to put data on the user’s computer, one Flash file at a time. Adobe are crap when it comes to security lately, both in their coding and in their responsiveness to security holes, both reported and exploited. Shameful.
3) Like it or not, nothing bombs a web browser faster or more often that Flash. This is Apple’s own assertion. It is also consistently my experience, even in the latest version of Safari, which is supposed to be using memory sandboxing. I can’t speak for Safari’s problems. But I can tell you that it doesn’t matter what browser you use. Flash will kill it. Again, this is just plain old sloppy coding at Adobe. I have no doubt that Flash has inherent memory leaks in its base coding. Certainly buffer over runs are the general bane of ALL modern coding. But the Flash solution rests with Adobe.
Conclusion:
Adobe are incredibly sloppy and lazy. Yes, Adobe inherited the base code from Macromedia. Yes, Macromedia may well have provided crap Microsoft quality commenting in the code making it nasty to comprehend and update. But we are talking about out one of the most profitable application developers in history who are essentially making the Internet into a bad experience because of the faults of Flash. Adobe seriously need to clean up the mess that is Flash code.
@derekcurrie
Amen brother! You nailed it. Bye-bye flash.