“Apple’s iTunes has been nothing short of revolutionary. For just 99 cents, you can download almost any song onto your computer or iPod. For a few more dollars, you can rent a movie or buy an episode of your favorite TV show,” Brian Joseph reports for The Orange County Register.
“The service has become so ubiquitous that last month iTunes was named the nation’s second largest music retailer, behind only Wal-Mart,” Joseph reports. “It is a money machine – and our Legislature appears to have noticed.”
“You see, music and movies purchased on iTunes differs from those purchased in stores in one very significant way: it’s not taxed. California law explicitly restricts sales tax to ‘tangible’ goods – i.e. products that can be ‘seen, weighed, measured, felt or touched,'” Joseph reports. “A digital file, obviously, isn’t any of those things.”
“But the state faces an $8 billion deficit. The Legislature needs money. So it’s looking to iTunes,” Joseph reports.
“Last month, Assemblyman Charles Calderon, D-Whittier, introduced Assembly Bill 1956, which would apply sales taxes to media downloads. That would take a 99 cent song and bump it to $1.07 or more,” Joseph reports.
“New taxes require a 2/3rd vote of the Legislature, meaning some anti-tax Republicans would have to sign onto the proposal, but Calderon got creative,” Joseph reports. “Instead of proposing a new tax, AB 1956 simply requires the Board of Equalization to amend the definition of ‘tangible personal property’ to include ‘digital property.’ That needs only a majority vote, meaning no Republicans necessary.”
Joseph reports, “Voila! A new tax – without a 2/3rds vote.”
Full article here.
Did Apple create California’s budget crisis or did California’s legislature spend way, way, way more than it took in for years? Perhaps before taxing California’s consumers and taking a bite out of one of the premier California-based employers, the legislature should first look to reign in their massive, wasteful spending habits? You know, get your business in order first before you look to disrupt the well-performing businesses of others. Just a logical thought. We now return you to reality and the illogical thought patterns of California legislators.
Apple ought to noisily explore Arizona real estate opportunities. That would put an end to this sort of stupidity immediately.
[Thanks to MacDailyNews Reader “Bill M.” for the heads up.]
Hey MDN, you watch your comments. Somebody has to pay for Mayor Newsom’s immigration policies and he is too cool to pay himself.
Just my $0.02
P.S. 118 MB patch to Office 2008 just arrived.
Tax & spend politicians. idiots.
How about you stop supporting drug using fatherless baby making machines. That’s at least a start.. then look at your salaries. Only after you look to yourself can you start taxing me EVEN MORE..
Every chance you get, ask any elected official how many government employees they intend to lay off during their tenure.
My iTunes Store purchases (downloads) have always been taxed here in Washington, DC. I thought that was the case everywhere that Apple has a physical presence — they must abide by the local sales tax rate. Unlike, say Amazon, which does not have a physical presence here, and nothing is taxed when purchased from them. Californians have been getting off easy if they’ve had this arrangements for so long on so-called “intangible” goods!
@Aldebaran
I live in Kansas, no iTunes tax here.
California might be bad, but come to the great state of Maryland. We tax everything possible and try to run companies out of state.
Before this turns into a Dem/Repub thread, all politicians suck.
Oh, but we can’t CUT anything in California……..we just need MORE money. That will fix everything. Fix the educational system, it will fix health care, hell, it even fixes erectile dysfunction.
With Gas prices here in California well over $3.50 a gallon, there is NO WAY I’d support raising ANY taxes at all.
The key here is exactlly how the law would be written. If some one in CA bought software from a company in Texas and had to pay Texas sales tax, would they have to pay CA sales tax too??
That is one of the problems now with internet sales. Its a matter of who gets the money. Every state wants your money, and they do not care if they deserve it or now.
Greedy govt. 🙁
Typical left wing “Tax & Spend” libs. Feed at the public trough and tax everyone else. We’re doomed.
Poor California.
First Reagan has the Contra’s infect it with cocaine (which propagates and spreads gang culture throughout the entire country) in order to fund the Contra’s.
Then Bush’s buddies suck billions from them in an energy scam called ENRON.
It’s clear that republicans are willing to sacrifice California in a way that fits their agenda, even if the agenda is completely illegal.
I live in Arizona and am taxed on iTunes purchases. It’s dumb but if CA would appoint all the iTunes taxes to the educational budget maybe the state wouldn’t be laying of 16k+ teachers next fall.
maybe more companies should move out of california — let the brain drain speak volumes to the legislature of california
We have to pay tax on itunes purchases here in NJ. The corrupt politicians (mostly Dems) have ruined this state. I dont purchase as many songs since the tax.
I guess Gray-Out Davis had nothing to do with California’s fiscal problems, huh? Blame everything on the feds and take no personal responsibility.
And Democrats wonder why so many people vote Republican/Independent. It’s because people get sick of working into late April and even May just to pay their taxes:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/27/pf/taxes/tax_freedom_statelist/index.htm
Californians have it worse than most US States… And it’s trending worse:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/
Folks simply shouldn’t have to work 1/3 of the year simple for taxes.
Instead of raising taxes when confronted with a budget shortfall they should be looking at ways of eliminating the burrocracy [spelling intentional]. When I have a shortfall of money, I cut back until such time that I have more money or look for a better paying job! Perhaps the California Legislature should consider doing the same [either one would do].
Not at all surprising to see Democrats are up to their usual tricks to get around a law designed to make it more difficult to pass taxes too. Were I a Republican or Independent in the California Legislature, I’d propose a bill that makes proposals to amending the definition of ‘tangible personal property’ to require a 2/3rd’s vote too.
Not that I am a big user of iTunes [I still prefer physical media when I have a choice] but I’m glad I don’t live there.
— Hano
Sshhh… Will you please keep it down??? New York may hear you. New York is a vacuum cleaner when it comes to taxes. 8% sales taxes, high personal properity taxes, AND such thing as a school tax. Not to mention high gasoline prices – one of the worst on the East coast. You would think with all this income somebody in Albany could balance a state budget.
(Okay, I now need to walk away, go take a deep breath, and count to X.)
Peace.
Take a good look at what will happen should we give the White House back to the Dems. Barack Hussein Obama and his VP Jeremiah Wright will jack up taxes and kill the economy at a time when we’re already struggling. No amount of ad space on this site will change that.
“Tax & spend politicians. idiots.”
unlike the brilliant “don’t tax, but go ahead and spend money you don’t have” right wing, right?
lets be fair. the right wing got the entire nation of the USofA in economic trouble. now when the left tries to save the budget they are the bad guys?
look, i don’t like the idea of taxing iTMS either, but to “amend the definition of ‘tangible personal property’ to include ‘digital property'” is pretty reasonable.
unless you want to claim that what you download is not tangible, and cannot be used, listened to or watched, this is pretty reasonable.
also, important rule, if you are from a “red state” where the money your state gets back in aid for things like gov jobs and road projects is higher than the total taxes your state pays, you are NOT allowed to complain about taxes. i hear one more moronic “anti-gobrment” tirade from some putz in south carolina or wyoming or some other “red-state” that would be a third world nation without the US government supporting its infrastructure, i am gonna puke.
so yeah ron, “Feed at the public trough and tax everyone else.” i agree, no more blue-state money to ignorant hicks. that would clear things up for me fine, how about you?
Yeah, blame the “tax and spend” Democrats. They’re so much more irresponsible than the “borrow and spend” Republicans.
I say blow it all on war and contributions to our cronies, and let our grandchildren sort it out.
There is still no sales tax on Limewire.
Obama the Messiah will save us all from taxes.
http://www.fuckthesouth.com/ says it better than i can….
Yes, let’s be fair. I don’t guess Bill Clinton had anything to do with floating the dotCom bubble which popped, or feel-good liberals telling banks they should loan money to unqualified people so they could buy a house or, probably more like it, buy too much of a house and now face the possibly of foreclosure because they can’t afford their adjusted mortgages.
Bush is no conservative. But Obama and Hillary and McCain all want to steal more of my paycheck. They all want the tax cuts to expire, which means they all want to raise taxes. And some want to raise gasoline taxes. Where’s the love the liberals all espouse?
Who is going to complain about the pork in the budget? Nobody, it seems.
Who would rather have oil money stay in the USA from drilling, pumping and refining our own? Or would they rather keep sending $100+ per barrel to Saudi Arabia and the rest? Why do they want to keep funding the middle east? Why do they hate American companies and Americans so much?
I’d better stop here before my rant gets out of hand.
We have always had tax on iTunes in Alabama. Just thought it was the norm kinda like going out and buying the CD or DVD.
As soon as Cadillac Deval sees this – Massachusetts will be next in line. The Dems here never met a tax they didn’t like…
How about cutting services to ILLEGALS from any country!!
Use those billions to pay the difference. Why tax us when they make bone headed decisions.
Hey-got another, take away their (Legislature) money by 25 percent to pay for their mistakes. Between the two we will have a surplus!
Here is a thought for the table- are you listening Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and the Legislature?
Bet idea one or two will not even be considered- tax trash, tax music, coming-tax e-mail, tax, tax, tax until the no one can afford a loaf of bread- unless you are on the social system.
“…or feel-good liberals telling banks they should loan money to unqualified people so they could buy a house…”
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Yeah, the feel-good liberals took all that debt to Wall Street and sold it off as securities, too. Sure, that was Ted Kennedy doing that, I saw him.
The only thing politicians in general and liberal in particular are good at: taxing and spending!!!!
I’m Italian, I know what I’m talking about…
I forgot that only RepubliKKKans work on Wall Street. Warren Buffet must be the most staunch conservative.
Oh how I’m glad I’m not living in CA anymore. The US should exile CA out of the union. They can tax themselves to death and whine when the military isn’t there to save them from the invasion of Mexico.
Commenting on anonymous forums is easy.
Running a country whilst your every breath is analyzed by knee-jerk media boneheads is not easy.
Hey ‘@shen’ – What are you supposed to do when people scream bloody murder at things like taxes or gas prices, and then go and buy 13mpg SUVs?
Those ‘unqualified people’ you mentioned bought there own house without being forced to by any government policy.
You make your own economy. So go and make it.
I’m with Lurker PC up there, take a deep breath.
So what if people buy a 13mpg SUV. What does that have to do with gas prices and taxes? I guess you’re saying people who buy something that gets lower gas mileage should pay not only more tax (since they’re buying more gasoline) but should pay a higher tax rate so as to discourage people from buying a 13mpg SUV.
Interesting.
Right on ‘Just a Thought’
I came here the hard way – legally.
As a resident alien I keep the law, pay my taxes and I pay attention to politics.
It’s galling enough to watch the economy I have to function in get drained by illegals, but it’s far more galling to hear politicians tell me it’s not a big deal.
You are correct in that those “unqualified people” bought their own house without being forced to by any government policy. But Congress was urging banks to offer loans to people who wouldn’t have qualified for loans. When legislators with legal responsibility over your industry tell you to do something what else do you do?
Welcome. Glad you’re here. (no kidding)
No, I’m not saying that, but could you clarify your objection, I’m not sure what you mean.
Peace.
@G Spank:
Please, provide some corroborated proof of your allegations.
Mr. Banks:
•••You make your own economy•••
You’re not obliged to financial folly merely because the government permits it.
You don’t have to shoot yourself in the head because someone hands you a gun.
Quite why Congress did that I have no earthy clue.
I’m glad I’m here.
I’d like to move us north into Oregon, but that State is one step shy of California, and a ton of my talent wouldn’t move…
Just wonder whether you Americians need to pay tax if the iTunes servers move overseas.
We in Hong Kong don’t have any sales tax, but no iTunes Store either.
US gas prices are still less than half what the rest of the developed world pays (in EU, it averages at about $7 per gallon, at today’s exchange rate). Either way, they are where they are because of reckless spending of the current US government. At not time in the history of US had any single US government spent so much money in such short period of time. And solid chunks of that (government tax) money ended up in the pockets of companies tied to the current government leaders (Halliburton, anyone?). In other words, your tax money and high gas prices are financing the massive profits of companies that belong to the privileged circle. Not to mention that the oil companies are, with all the high crude oil prices, showing the record profits, all on the back of those minivan-driving soccer moms, paying $3+ per gallon.
Those who bought houses and couldn’t pay for them did that when the economy was strong. Had there not been so much government spending on a war (driving the economy and the US dollar down), many of the defaults wouldn’t have happened. Nor would have US real estate market gone down so rapidly and so low.
As for taxing iTunes, California went ahead through all those propositions during the dot-com years, financing all kinds of social programmes from the state budget (after-school meals, special programmes, etc, etc, etc). Whenever there was some kind of an election, there would be a vote on some proposition. It is now time to begin paying for those programmes, and dot-com is no more, so no more hefty taxes to pay for all that. ITunes ironically seems quite reasonable, since many other states already have it. The way it is being introduced, though is typical politics, though.
Listen to yourselves! Some of you want to make me think the way you do, and others of you want to deny me the ability to think for myself, with both sides wanting to kick some teeth in just to prove their point. Mama would say go to your room and cool off!
Typical liberals. They love to tax and spend and then tax some more. The best part is that they consider anyone that makes over 30K a year to be “rich” as that’s who will get their taxes increased if they get elected in November.
@ disconnect
Uh, no, I think what he’s saying is that if things are so bad with the economy and money in general, isn’t it funny how people can’t seem to give up their love of conspicuous consumption.
Personally, in January of 2003, when I figured out the GWB was going to war in the middle east, I saw the writing on the wall and bought a 45mpg VW Jetta diesel. Of course my friends were all buying giant cars at that time. Funny how that all worked out.
Couple of comments:
1) When I used to buy 99 cent cassette singles at the record store they were taxed. If I buy a CD now it is taxed. Is there a single logical, consistent reason why the same song should be subject to sales tax if bought on CD but shouldn’t be subject to sales tax if bought as a digital file? Let’s extrapolate further — if I buy Microsoft office for $299 at the store it is taxed; should I pay if I could buy it as a download for the same $299? This is particularly apropos as more people buy music online–digital purchases are replacing physical purchases, so all the whining about greedy polititicians doesn’t quote pan out.
2) The pols don’t have any real reason to save money because the degree of whining citizens produce about taxes doesn’t have any real relationship with the amount of actual taxes collected. California, for example, is not first in state taxes per capital, but rather is tenth. In my original home state of Florida the complaints about high state taxes are always high, no one in Florida considers their legislature as anything but a bunch of money-wasting, crooked, charge everything to the taxpayers spendthrift crooks. Florida is 37th in per capita taxes. My present home state of Pennsylvania has its own angry taxpayer groups, reducing taxes is a constant political platform, and most Pennsylvanians think that they are the most-taxed people out of New York State. Pennsylvania is right at the middle — 23rd out of 50 states, with per capita taxes only $35 a person more than Nebraska.
3) Historically, conservatives have always favored sales taxes more than any other kind of tax. Sales taxes tax consumption rather than saving and investment, and are the taxes the most under the control of the taxpayer–spend less money, pay less sales taxes unlike income taxes which grab a percentage from you whether you personally choose to conserve or not.
If I lived in California I would want to see the tax law changed because as a cheap motherfsker I like saving a buck as much as anyone else. On the other hand, as a taxpayer I would have trouble understanding why the sales of the largest music retailer are taxed, the sales of the third largest music retailer are taxed, but the sales of the second largest retailer are tax free.
When I purchased my CD’s from Tower Records (may they rest in peace), I paid sales tax. Now that sales tax revenue for CD’s is declining due to digital downloads, it makes sense to me to move the taxes to them. I’m happy to pay a few more bucks a year to help keep our public schools staffed and community parks maintained.
Cheating swine.
And they want our votes in the coming election?
Stuff ’em.
ps. I don’t think the emoticon box works anymore…
“Democrats look to tax…”
Wow, thats odd, they never like to tax.
@g spank
Nice attempt at diverting the blame.
Cocaine and Enron have little to do with Ca’s current fiscal problems.
As a Ca. resident it amazes me how huge our budget is and how the Gov manages to waste so much of it.
I live in Sacramento and what we consistently hear is that we need to spend more to fix our problems. All the while the state Gov bureaucracy continues to grow.
It’s both frustrating and depressing.
Who voted for that bunch of money-wasting, crooked, charge everything to the taxpayers spendthrift crooks??
Floridians!!!!!!!
CrissyOne:
Rock on. Making your own economy!
MacDailyNews – where political muckstirring comes first in the name of clicks and advertising revenue.
Personally, I find it a little odd that MDN thinks that the mob should get all fired up over iTS purchases for California residents and we get into the “thieving libs” comments, but nobody wants to talk about real issues like the Federal deficit – $9 trillion in the red, military spending raised by another $40 billion (8.1%), spending on education, training, highways and the environment cut by over $18 billion.
If you really want to know who has their hand in your pocket, ignore the distractions that MDN, ron and others want to highlight: these are diversions so you don’t see where the real money is going – from your payslips to Halliburton – so they can provide contaminated drinking water to US troops – and Blackwater.
Five years – nearly 4000 dead and sixty thousand injured – over $500 billion spent. For every $10,000 raised in taxes, the Federal Government gives $2,700 to the military and $1,900 in interest. A mere $450 goes on education which is an appalling indictment of the priorities of the nation.
Posting on a forum that requires a second click to get to the next page of useless comments.
Like this one.
“Like this one.”
That’s not as pointless as this one.
Rick from Sacramento said, “When I purchased my CD’s from Tower Records (may they rest in peace), I paid sales tax. Now that sales tax revenue for CD’s is declining due to digital downloads, it makes sense to me to move the taxes to them. I’m happy to pay a few more bucks a year to help keep our public schools staffed and community parks maintained.”
Spoken like a true politician.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”hmmm” style=”border:0;” />
The anti-tax tirade is cute and all, but more fitting a YAF nerd at some fake school like Regent or Liberty University.
The NeoConned think that they can get something for nothing by borrowing and spending a opposed to paying for what you buy through current taxation. At least those who advocate tax increases are honest enough to pay for the programs they propose.
The bottom line is that it costs money to run government and provide services. The money has to come from somewhere and why should a file from iTunes be so special?
Now if I buy a CD I get taxed but if I download the same content I don’t? That doesn’t seem fair to CD buyers. TAX ‘EM ALL!!!
Hahhah! “Tax and spend Democrats”, as opposed to the “borrow and spend republicans” who sold the future of this country to China.
What do you have to say to that, pugs?
The tax idea is just a stupid one. I am a liberal and I think it is stupid. What kills me is all the comments saying stupid liberals and their tax and spending. That should read stupid politicians. For every example of it with the Dems, you can counter it with one from the Republicans.
Give it a rest. Stupid is as stupid does.
I would like to see a stimulus plan where I am paid $0.99 for every track I buy on iTunes.
Which is better? With Tax & Spend, there is no interest to be paid, and no deficit to eat up future taxes. Borrow and spend is what’s killing this country.
Which is better? With Tax & Spend, there is no interest to be paid, and no deficit to eat up future taxes. Borrow and spend is what’s killing this country.
Which is better? With Tax & Spend, there is no interest to be paid, and no deficit to eat up future taxes. Borrow and spend is what’s killing this country.
Which is better? With Tax & Spend, there is no interest to be paid, and no deficit to eat up future taxes. Borrow and spend is what’s killing this country.
Which is better? With Tax & Spend, there is no interest to be paid, and no deficit to eat up future taxes. Borrow and spend is what’s killing this country.
Which is better? With Tax & Spend, there is no interest to be paid, and no deficit to eat up future taxes. Borrow and spend is what’s killing this country.
I’m going back to Limewire – Stupid Dem-commies
Still waiting for someone to explain why bits bought and sent over a wire or wireless from one machine to another shouldn’t be taxed, while the same bits sold recorded to a disc are taxed.
***crickets*** ***crickets*** ***crickets***
Open letter to Steve Jobs.
Dear Steve,
Oregon welcomes you. Why don’t you move the iTunes Music Store up north. I know it rains a lot more than California, but as long as you don’t leave them outside the servers will not care. Intel already has most of their plants around Portland and the chips inside the Mac were designed by Intel’s Oregon engineers so you already have friends up here. Plus, the Portland area probably has more Apple Stores per capita then anywhere else. We love Apple up here. Oh, by the way, we have no sales tax. In fact, one of our US senators, Ron Wyden, is the crusader in the Senate for net neutrality and keeping governments from taxing internet transactions.
So bring the ITMS up north where it will flourish and be safe from government interference and taxes. Just don’t forget your Gore-Tex.
Governor Ted Kulongoski
<< lets be fair. the right wing got the entire nation of the USofA in economic trouble. now when the left tries to save the budget they are the bad guys? >>
Save the budget??? The left doesn’t know what ‘budget’ means. You need welfare- sure, hey, how much?
You need food stamps- just ask baby- and don’t worry about that Citizen ‘thing’- Just a formality.
Oh- the Constitution- just fill in the blanks to whatever suits you.
“It takes a village” right?… liberal scum.
I hate those Democrats. Can’t do anything except creating more taxes.
I thought we had debunked socialism?
It’s called “Intangible” because that’s a digital download is. It lacks any physical properties.
You can’t redefine the word “intangible”.
What’s next- They’ll start taxing services as well?
MDN must have bills to pay
Those of you who point out that borrowing and spending is just as bad as tax and spending are absolutely correct.
As a LIFE LONG resident of California however, I can testify that our current situation must be lain squarely in the laps of the DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED LEGISLATURE.
They are the worst examples of tax and spend democrats. If you look up liberalism in the dictionary, their pictures are there. Long before the current housing and credit crunch, they literally taxed old people out of their homes. Had it not been for Howard Jarvis and REPUBLICANS and PROP 13 coming to the rescue of the average guy, MY grandmother would have lost her home.
The California State Legislature is EVIL. They REFUSE to stop spending. They literally run commercials that say they don’t have a spending problem, WE have a “priorities” problem.
When our current FAILED REPUBLICAN governor tried to do something about it, they handed him his ass. The UNIONS working with the DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE spent hundreds of millions of dollars literally lying to the public telling them that modest budget increases were cuts!!! The teacher’s union was the worst. Continuous commercials of “poor little children” looking so sad were run. In the end, most people thought that a 3% budget increase in education was somehow a budget cut.
So yes, the Republican governor BORROWED to cover bigger increases.
These “people” want to lay the tax burden at the feet of California’s rich, while at the same time they champion the unimpeded importation of millions of poor from Mexico because they know these people will vote Democrat!! That’s right, they want to import illegal aliens to have them vote.
California is one of the most business unfriendly states in the hemorrhaging businesses and productive people and supporting the poor of Mexico.
I don’t care if you are Democrat or Republican, this is the kind of crap going on in California, and this latest nut brained scheme is just an example.
And we will vote these people in again. Over and over we vote them in.
The California State Legislature is what taught me the fundamental differences between Democrats and Republicans.
When the economy is good, they constantly over spend. When the economy is bad, they REFUSE to cut back, they look for “revenue enhancements.”
Fabio Nunez, the speaker of the assembly, was literally on the radio talking about how the state wasn’t getting all of the revenue it was “entitled” to.
These people are the worst of the worst SOCIALISTS. They’ve never met a tax they don’t like.
They literally believe that if the average income of California citizens is $30,000 a year, and you make $100,000, YOU HAVE $70,000 OF THE GOVERNMENT’S MONEY!
I live in a state with sales tax and my downloads from iTunes store
are taxed at the rate in my state. If Californicaters also added a tax I would call it double taxation and I think this is illegal.
Hopefully, the legislator from Cupertino can straighten out the idiot from Whittier.
No surprises . . . the California Democrats would tax the oxygen you breath if the could get away with it.
@Opj
“Still waiting for someone to explain why bits bought and sent over a wire or wireless from one machine to another shouldn’t be taxed, while the same bits sold recorded to a disc are taxed.”
The law-
California law explicitly restricts sales tax to ‘tangible’ goods.
Taxes are collected at the point of sale.
iTunes are digital at the point of sale and therefor intangible. CDs are physical at the the point of sale and, say it with me- tangible.
Is that a concept you can understand? Because if you don’t get it, those crickets chirping are in your head.
Any cred you had for arguing subjects on this thread just went out the window.
@theloniousMac
“As a LIFE LONG resident of California however, I can testify that our current situation must be lain squarely in the laps of the DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED LEGISLATURE. “
“When our current FAILED REPUBLICAN governor tried to do something about it, they handed him his ass. The UNIONS working with the DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE spent hundreds of millions of dollars literally lying to the public telling them that modest budget increases were cuts!!! The teacher’s union was the worst. Continuous commercials of “poor little children” looking so sad were run. In the end, most people thought that a 3% budget increase in education was somehow a budget cut. “
Thank you theloniousMac. Astute and very correct.
Anyone following the Ca Gov should would be hard pressed to come to a different conclusion without bias.
By the way, the Teachers union is at it again- fear mongering.
“feel-good liberals telling banks they should loan money to unqualified people so they could buy a house or, probably more like it, buy too much of a house and now face the possibly of foreclosure because they can’t afford their adjusted mortgages.
Bush is no conservative.”
actually, my economist (and wife) would like to point out that it was moves by bush that encouraged loans to unqualified people.
but don’t let facts get in your way.
and yeah, just like EVERY failed conservative, after the fall, people claim he wasn’t a TRUE conservative.
….shame they are all like that.
learn something before you state “facts.” or is that anti-conservative?
Me me me me. You Americans are always the same. Everything from a personal “why should I be inconvenienced?” viewpoint.
Open your eyes and take a good look. The US economy is tanking. The state and municipal governments across the nation are suffering budget shortfalls and most, if not all, will be required to cut services or raise taxes. Cutting services will affect the disadvantaged first – you know, all those people the american democratic system thrown on the junk heap and you are going to have a lot of discontented people running around there soon…
Selfish people with money, and discontented people with nothing – sounds like a recipe for social unrest to me…
ps: let’s put this in context – this tax is going to add 17 cents to the cost of a song? 17 cents? How many hundreds of songs do you purchase each week?
Been paying 7% sales tax on iTunes here in NJ for quite some time now. Pretty lame.
FSCK ALL LIBERALS
“Save the budget??? The left doesn’t know what ‘budget’ means.”
yet they have balanced it in my life time, and the CONservatives took that and in just 3 years went to recorded deficits.
yeah, those dumb liberals know nothing about a budget, let the right run the country!
oh wait, we did, and now over 70% of the country think it is worse than it was before they took over….
…hang on to your ignorance conservatives.
byronic: i assume you are not american? you know too much about what is happening in america to be a typical american….
Tax and spend liberals = scumbag thieves. It’s not YOUR money, assclowns!
iTunes is already taxed in Utah. Songs cost $1.06 in Utah.
Why is it when Republicans bash govt. it’s ok but when liberals do, we’re un-Patriotic?
Why is it Republicans will bitch about the Mid-East and the price of gas but have no problem with W hanging out with the Saudis?
Why is it W complains about the guys up in Washington and what’s going on in Washington when he LIVES in Washington. He IS Washington.
All politicians are corrupt. Republicans are just better at it.
I can just see it now. “Dear Taxpayer. You just got your Epic Flying Mount and Epic Sword in World of Warcraft. GRATZ ON THE PURPLZ DUDE!!!
However, in accordance with California State Law, these constitute digital property. We estimate the value of your acquisitions to be approximately 10,000 gold in your realm, which leads us to compute a tax o $27.32 based on the commercial cost of gold on your server.
Please make a check out to the State of California. Thank You! Now go run Kara! We need the funds!”
shen
It was the Republicans who helped “balance” the budget under Clinton. I put that in quotes because it was never actually achieved, just as the deficit is not nearly as bad now as it is made out to be, as far as a percent of GNP.
Obamacanbeatupyomama,
You come off as an extremely young, inexperienced, naive, and just plain silly individual. I won’t attempt to explain in depth the differences between conservatives and liberals, but I urge you to one day, just quietly, close the door and ask yourself what you really believe in. Do you believe that government should just grow and grow with no limits? Do you believe that government is responsible for solving the personal problems of people? Do you believe that government should have the right to raise taxes whenever it wants to? Do you believe in the rights of the individual over the tyranny of the masses? Do you believe we should have secure borders and a strong defense?
Think about those things. You might be surprised to find out what you believe and who that politically aligns you with.
>iTunes are digital at the point of sale and therefor intangible. CDs are physical at the the point of sale and, say it with me- tangible.
Then let me put this more simply to you–so what? I know what the law is. I’m asking what legitimate reason is there for the distinction, and why not change the law? Obviously no one likes adding a tax to something that doesn’t presently have a tax. That seems to be the only reason given in two pages of screeds for keeping the distinction. All you’ve done is regurgitate the article back. Do you generally chew your cud, or only today?
Gee, you would have been really useful back in the pre-Civil War South. Why do we have slavery? Because, that’s the law. Yeah, but don’t you think it is wrong to own other people? It is the law, can’t you read! That’s the law, we own people. See, book. See, law.
Once again–Still waiting for someone to explain why bits bought and sent over a wire or wireless from one machine to another shouldn’t be taxed, while the same bits sold recorded to a disc are taxed.
(By the way, the reason California doesn’t charge a sales tax on intangible property is that “intangible property” usually means stocks, bonds and other investments.)
meanwhile, last week the fed took 200 BIllion tax dollars and used it to bail out banks that made bad loans because the conservatives encouraged them to make bad loans.
….so rightwing f#cktards can cry about a dime or some odd amount tax on a song. yeah, way to get your priorities right guys.
TT, i lived through it, i watched them bitch every step of the way and listened to the right complain about how it would destroy the economy. whatever.
i am not arguing that the deficit is as bad as it is made out to be. if the rest of our econ policy made sense it wouldn’t matter. but when the entire ball of policy from one end to the other is out of whack, little nudges are all it takes to mess things up.
also, we have 8-9 people pointing out they are already taxed in their state. so, again, as someone else asked as well, why should the bits on the CD be taxed but not these? please explain all you brilliant conservatives.
better yet, explain why MY taxes should go to an endless war that is being epically failed, but YOURS can’t pay to educate children or keep people alive?
taxes are only ok to kill people with?
“Do you believe that government should just grow and grow with no limits?”
if so, vote rethuglican, they have grown the government more in my life time than the liberals…
“Do you believe that government is responsible for solving the personal problems of people?”
if so, support the party that called a special session to save a vegetable named Terry.
“Do you believe that government should have the right to raise taxes whenever it wants to?”
if so, support the party that took 200 billion tax dollars and gave it to banks for making bad choices!
“Do you believe in the rights of the individual over the tyranny of the masses?”
if so, don’t support the PATRIOT ACT! oops! who wrote that!
“Do you believe we should have secure borders and a strong defense? “
if so, ask yourself, how has 600 feet of fence with a door protected us? how has sending thousands to die in a country that was never a threat helped protect us?
theloniousMac, are you really that damn dumb?
Shen
I never said this tax shouldn’t be levied. I have always been taxed on iTunes purchases and agree that sales taxes are a fairer system.
That has nothing to do with your statement.
Shen, I vote for what I believe in and you are absolutely right. To say that I am disappointed in the current and recent Republican administrations is beyond an understatement. George W. Bush has made a mockery of conservatism, and rather than calling it like it is, far to many Republicans are standing by the man.
The same thing is happening in California. I voted for a so called “Republican.” I got a flaming hot-tub liberal in disguise. He ran saying that he would control spending, that he would not grow government, that he would lower taxes.
Instead he has done just the opposite.
He has gotten naked and slithered into bed with the Democrats. In fact now he says the following “revenue enhancements” are on the table:
-Increase in the Sales Tax
-Reducing the state personal income tax credit for dependents
-Raising the gas tax
-Hiking student fees
-Raising park fees
-Raising tobacco taxes
-Elimination of the Mortgage Interest Deduction (oh that’s gonna help real estate).
So no, I am not “that dumb” as you say. I believe in smaller government. I believe in less government, government out of my life, out of my pocket, and off the backs of the people. I do not believe the government should bail me out of my crappy mortgage. I do not believe the government should handle my health care. I do not believe the government should compensate for my irresponsibility or my irrationality.
Yet try as I might by voting Republican, I get more of this.
So I have to wonder if my votes even make a difference. No matter who is in office, government gets bigger, even more scary (cough -patriot act- cough), and even more out of control.
I look at the current crop of presidential candidates and I see no difference in the top 3 candidates. No matter which one we get, we’re screwed. Obama is just Hillary with the penis she wishes she had. McCain is not that much different than the two of them. No matter what, we the people lose.
we pay sales tax on itunes purchases in texas, and we’re a very decidedly republican state.
all states and municipalities need to have some kind of revenue to pay for services that don’t amount to paying for welfare mothers and other such code words, often racist or xenophobic at the least. conservatives like to throw out in their “tax and spend” rhetoric but fail to realize that tax revenue pays for services that we all use, conservative and liberals alike such as: trash collection, police forces, fire departments, education, business loans, infrastructure (roads). These are services we don’t even blink at need to be paid for some way.
would the conservatives on this board rather see states cut taxes and continue to borrow money in order to pay for these services? or see such services cut off all together? if you borrow to pay it’s going to have to be paid back some day either through bonds or through raised taxes. if you cut these services and your house catches on fire or your robbed and there’s no fire department or police to assist you then what would you do? who would you blame?
i’d rather pay a sales tax then some kind of hidden tax such as a road toll, service charge, or the idea of the $5 isp charge to cover the failed music business. people don’t bitch about these because the word tax isn’t applied to them but that’s exactly what they are a tax.
blaming illegal aliens, “welfare moms”, or politicians is an easy out. it allows those who like to place blame to put themselves above others and not take personal responsibility for their actions and consumption; without realizing they too are part of the problem. its also easier to blame other than to offer solutions.
if you don’t want to pay a sales tax on itunes music then make your own music and give it away freely. if you don’t want to pay for “welfare moms” then hire one and give them a way to get off welfare; if you don’t want illegals coming to this country taking away our jobs, then grow your own vegetables or go pick your own, clean your hotel room the next time your traveling, build your own house; if you don’t want politicians raising your taxes and spending it then don’t call 911 next time you need the police or fire department. hell, run for office and put your feet to the fire to try to pay for services that we all use daily without thought.
@pay taxes in texas
The problem is that allowing any new tax in California is basically like giving drugs to addicts. The legislature is far too irresponsible to be given any more money UNITL they demonstrate that they can manage it.
Texas is no where near the problems we have in this state.
The broad concept of “digital property” is too nebulous to be allowed also.
And I don’t know about Texas but in this state we are contributing more to the bottom line of Mexico than Mexico’s citizens!
What?? All the complaints about legislators increasing sales taxes, and NOT ONE comment about the sweet deals that local and state legislators make with big retailers (*cough* Walmart *cough*) to pay no taxes on the goods they sell?? “Kevin!” you say, “You’re crazy! I pay sales tax on every taxable item I buy at these places.” Yes, but does Walmart actually pay them to the local or state government? There’s some evidence that many have arranged deals just to get those stores built where they have little or no tax burden. (I wonder what kind of “gifts” those legislators received from Big Retailers?) So, sure, you pay your sales taxes. But these places KEEP that money, rake in wonderful profits, and legislators don’t want you to know because they would get tarred, feathered, drawn, and quartered by the local voters. Oh, yeah, they’d be voted out of office, too. Think I’m kidding? Check it out. Didn’t you always wonder how they drove out small businesses? The local governments let them.
“So no, I am not “that dumb” as you say. I believe in smaller government. I believe in less government, government out of my life, out of my pocket, and off the backs of the people. I do not believe the government should bail me out of my crappy mortgage. I do not believe the government should handle my health care. I do not believe the government should compensate for my irresponsibility or my irrationality.
Yet try as I might by voting Republican, I get more of this.”
gosh, i wonder why……
you vote for the crooks who have done all of the things you are against for as long as i have been alive, and yet they do exactly what they have been doing! OMG!!!eleventy-one!
so yes, you are “that dumb.” over and over they screw you, and over and over you vote for them. no, maybe you are right, “dumb” is far too gentle a word.
you believe in government outta your life. off the backs of people.
unless they are people in another country, and then the government is there to kill them.
i am sooooo tired of conservative morons and their selfish little ways and their blame everyone else first and their “smaller government except where it helps my ass” and their tribalism and their jingoism and their stupidity and their tiny world tiny minds and their homophobia, racism and plain old ignorant hatred.
conservative is just another word for “too simple minded to think and too selfish to care.”
if you are all so much for “personal responsibility” why don’t you try showing it. don’t like the tax? move to a red-state backwater and enjoy yourself. god knows we won’t miss you! let the people who have moved up to being civilized enjoy civilization. we figured out that there is a price for civilization, we are just ready to pay it. too steep for you? fine. leave!
Kevin J. Weise gets it.
First Beatles song available on iTunes should be “Taxman.”
Kudos to the comment by Matt. I’m tired of seeing unwed losers on welfare with more kids than they (or should I say WE) can afford to support. When you don’t have a job, I guess all there is to do all day is F with someone ELSE who doesn’t have a job.
When the needy outnumber those that work, we can’t support them or ourselves.
@Opj
I wasn’t arguing for or against the tax. I was answering your question which you posited literally.
You want an explanation or opinions as to why there should be a tax on one and not the other as a basis for changing or not changing the existing tax law? I personally do not like the idea of increasing taxes without some fiscal accountability of which there’s very little in Ca. So I’m against this tax, but not passionately against it. I don’t think it will have much of an impact on iTunes sales. Song prices will still show as $.99 and folks won’t see the tax till they get their invoice. An afterthought.
So my answer may not satisfy because I cannot provide an argument for against or against a tax based on tangibility. But, I’d like to point out that we need to go back to when the law was written to understand the the distinction was made in the first place.
That reason is not as you say stocks bonds and other investments, there’s a completely different set of tax laws that address those earnings. It’s because of services. So you are wrong.
Why not ask why there’s a tax difference based on if we have it here, or to go at fast food restaurants, that would be a less controversial comparison. And such an incendiary subject for comparison. Tisk tisk. That should subliminally link my post to a racists southern plantation owner. Why not abortion, that will get pulses going and paint me as a ultra religious clinic bomber.
Ah the insults, “Chewing cud”. Yes I’m just a cow, part of the herd. My fault for not channeling your thoughts or interpreting a poorly worded question.
Your ability to argue a topic has again taken yet another hit.
By the way, does anyone understand (technically) why iTunes gift cards purchased via the Apple Online store are not taxed since a card is a tangible item?
Does the redeemer get hit with a tax? Are they taxed if purchased from best buy (I don’t remember if they are or not). OpJ, no need to attempt an answer since you can’t demonstrate credibility.
texas is consistently ranked near the bottom when it comes to healthcare and education. We can’t even pay for new roads!
all the new freeways in austin, where i live, are toll roads. they even tried to make an existing freeway system into a toll road! toll roads build by a private company from mexico, none-the less. the tolls that drivers in my city are paying aren’t even going to the local economy.
how’s that for benefiting mexico’s bottom line?
this is the new way of doing business in texas which our republican governor not only pushed for but continues to encourage. the new “trans-texas corridor”, if it happens, will be built the same way. this corridor will take farm land away from generational farmers, may possibly be built by the same foreign company, repaid through the hidden tax of a toll.
you’re mexico bottom line knee jerk reaction just illustrates the xenophobic statement i said earlier. texas like california has a high latino/hispanic/mexican population. in fact it’s projected that this demographic will be, if its not already, the largest population group in texas in the coming years.
immigrants, legal and illegal, send money to family back home; just like mommy and daddy send money to their kids in college. it’s families helping family out when, and if they can. my mom sent me money when i was in college, and for a few years, after marrying my dad and coming here from korea she sent money back to her family.
your “giving money to drug addicts” adage is played out! whether its tax revenue or borrowed money governments have to pay for services some, how some way. at least with tax revenue it won’t have to be paid back plus interest.
i have no problem paying a sales tax on trax i buy off itunes. at least i know that that revenue is coming back to my local economy to pay for the services i use and need. i don’t take the toll ways in austin cause all that revenue doesn’t.
UH, Kevin, those are called “economic incentives” to get business in the area to actually up the tax rolls.
One point that needs to be clear:Corporations do NOT pay taxes, their customers do. Doesn’t matter how you slice it, in the end, the price is passed on to the consumer.
It’s highly unlikely that whatever California gets from any iTunes tax is going to make much of a dent in their $8 billion budget shortfall.
Apple isn’t selling that many songs.
retails have to pay sales tax back to the state, it’s the law. what they aren’t paying for, or get brakes on, are property taxes. while there are vast differences between the two, i do agree with you that these “sweetheart” deals are often problematic. especially with companies like walmart who have been known to no pay overtime, schedule workers to work 29 hrs a week so they don’t reach the 30 hrs a week that would qualify them for benefits, and use shifty accounting practices to lessen their income tax burden.
Did anyone consider that you’re generally supposed to pay taxes on things (in most states) that you purchase over the internet anyway? If you order from Amazon to avoid tax, you are supposed to claim this on your tax return and pay tax on it (again, not in ALL states, but pretty universal)…so having an internet tax is nothing new, this would just ensure more people follow the rules…although it shouldn’t be iTunes specific…this should apply to any online store.
I live in Texas. We don’t even have income tax. Ha Ha Ha
“I live in Texas. We don’t even have income tax. Ha Ha Ha”
Careful there. The tax system in Texas is based on property and was set up when you could actually make money by selling cattle, raising crops, leasing and earning on your mineral rights from oil, gas or coal, and selling timber.
This system is stressed. Property values are artificially inflated to keep the tax board from having to “raise” tax rates. Try getting the money from the bank for what it is “valued” for taxes.
This system will have to be replaced at some point by a state income tax, but only if property taxes are relieved.
Signed
A Conservative from Texas
Let’s dig a bit deeper:
“texas is consistently ranked near the bottom when it comes to healthcare and education. We can’t even pay for new roads! “
Healthcare and Education are the number #1 gov & private systems impacted by the large influx of undocumented residents (paid artificially suppressed wages = less tax revenue).
“all the new freeways in austin, where i live, are toll roads. they even tried to make an existing freeway system into a toll road! toll roads build by a private company from mexico, none-the less.”
I hate toll roads. But there’s nothing wrong with providing a contract to a foreign owned corporation. It’s perfectly legal and makes sense if they provide quality work and competitive bids (still bugs me though).
Hell, I wish they’d outsource Ca Prisons south of the border. Govinator floated this idea but the union wouldn’t hear of it. $13K vs. $33K annual per convict = $20K savings.
Let’s say, we ship 100K of our worst offenders down to Hard Time in Mex. That would be a savings of $2 Billion!!
And-
Just because a person doesn’t like people coming to their country illegally and using their publicly funded services doesn’t mean they are a xenophobe.
I wonder what the MDN headline will read if this passes and Gov. Schwarzenegger signs this new tax into law?
California Governor Signs Democrat iTunes Tax Into Law.
or
Republican Governor Signs Democrat iTunes Tax Into Law.
How will MDN negate the fact that if this passes it will be a Republican governor who will sign it into law? Will MDN even negate this fact? Will MDN point fingers and blame both parties for a new tax in the State of California?
What will MDN’s snappy retort be? Hmmmmm?
heathcare costs are impacted mostly by uninsured, citizen and none, who go to emergency rooms to receive care. instead of having the privilege of going to an affordable primary care provider. you can’t just place the blame on undocumented worker, illegal aliens, or undocumented residents.
children should be educated, period! an educated society is a productive society. often times these children of undocumented residents are born in this country. would you deny a natural born citizen the right to an education just because their parents are not? this would be like denying mccain the right to run for president since he was born to american parents in panama; while it was a u.s. territory.
while legal, to have a foreign company build a toll road doesn’t negate the fact that a toll is a hidden tax and the revenue doesn’t benefit the local economy in the long term. yes, the worker may be local, but the 99 year pay back doesn’t. this is akin to borrowing the money to pay for the roads then letting successive generations pay it back. hell, this isn’t akin, it is borrowing the money to be paid back by successive generations.
why is it that conservative have no problem with deficit spending but screams to the high heavens about taxes?
shipping prisoners to other countries is stupid, wrong, and most likely unconstitutional.
“a toll is a hidden tax and the revenue doesn’t benefit the local economy in the long term.”
1) You don’t have to take the toll road. Most are built to alleviate traffic. Just take the old route.
“the revenue doesn’t benefit the local economy in the long term.”
2) Unless the road goes to an area that can use the new road as a selling point to raise land value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_North_Tollway
“why is it that conservative have no problem with deficit spending but screams to the high heavens about taxes? “
3) The Treasury is actually bringing in more money now than under Clinton’s higher tax rate. ‘Nuff said.
“you can’t just place the blame on undocumented worker, illegal aliens, or undocumented residents.”
Undocumented worker, illegal aliens, & undocumented residents are all the same thing. I’m pointing out a large contributor to the problem. I totally agree that the problem is much much larger. But border states have a high percentage of expenses related to undoc immigrants.
“would you deny a natural born citizen the right to an education just because their parents are not?”
Yes if their parents are here illegally. Because their family shouldn’t be here in the first place. Deport them and let they’re parent’s country bear the burden of educating their children. I’m not ashamed of this position.
I also don’t agree that just because a person’s parents timed their stay in the U.S. to coincide with their child’s due date, that child should gain citizenship. But that’s the law.
“this would be like denying mccain the right to run for president since he was born to american parents in panama; while it was a u.s. territory.”
No it isn’t. In so many ways, no it isn’t.
Toll roads- Did you read what I wrote? I’m just saying it’s not an issue that the road were built by a foreign company (you pointed that out). Yeah the 99yr plan sucks. I hate toll roads. That is until I’m late and can se one to get someplace on time.
“why is it that conservative have no problem with deficit spending but screams to the high heavens about taxes? “
Ah a very broad generalization. I never said anything about that subject in what I wrote. I’ve voted against every bond issue in CA since I was of legal age and I’ll be the first to bitch about the current administration and it’s spending. Please let’s not generalize.
“shipping prisoners to other countries is stupid, wrong, and most likely unconstitutional.”
Why?, Why?, and I doubt it.
like i said, i don’t use the new tollways in austin. how about reading this wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Tollways on texas tolls, give a good break down on pro and cons of toll roads as well as discusses the current moratorium on them in the state particularly this concern “The primary concerns leading to the moratorium were whether or not the tollways were hurting tax payers in the long run specifically due to the state deviating from its tollway authority model and contracting out roads entirely to private companies. Many legislators saw this as problematic as the primary function of these tollways would not be to serve the public but to serve as an instrument of profit for private corporations.” the other problem with tollway privatization is that the private companies can raise the price of the toll when ever they want, and the toll continues even after the cost of construction is paid off.
furthermore, the tollways in dallas and houston were paid through municipal bonds, the ones in austin were not. nor will the “trans-texas corridor”.
do you want to continue to pay your car loan company after you’ve paid off your car loan? not me.
bush has borrowed more money than all 42 previous presidents combined http://eteraz.org/2007/08/14/us-comptroller-slams-us-economic-inequity/ it states “According to the Treasury Department, from 1776-2000, the first 224 years of U.S. history, 42 U.S. presidents borrowed a combined $1.01 trillion from foreign governments and financial institutions, but in the past four years alone, the Bush administration borrowed $1.05 trillion.” these numbers by the way are from 2005. no wonder the treasury has more money now than during the clinton era. its mostly borrowed money.
how’s that for “nuff said’?
Fsck ’em all.
Apple needs to establish a floating nation-state, in “The Middle of Nowhere” as located in the old Mac OS “Map”.
No taxes. No Microsoft. Just cool Apple shit. Paradise!!
Just wonder how Jobs, the ex-hippie himself, would run it. Dictatorship? Commune? Holy Apple Empire? etc…
shipping prisoners to foreign countries would be unconstitutional due to the 8th amendment which states “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.” for california to ships its prison population to a foreign country would amount to an unusual punishment.
my “conservative yelling to the high heavens” isn’t more of a broad generalization than “tax and spend” liberal. nes pa?
one of the great thing about this country is that if you’re born here you are a citizen. mccain wasn’t born in the united states, he was born in panama, but since it was a u.s. territory he passes the “natural born” test, but barely. you’d like a country like japan where you’re not a born citizen if your parent or their parents were born in another country. japan has a large korean population who’s parent were born and raised in japan but aren’t considered japanese citizens because their parent were born in korea. many of these korean where brought to japan during the japanese colonization of korea as forced labor, many migrated during the korean war. regardless they’re sometimes 2 or 3 generation born in japan, pay japanese taxes, speak japanese, have japanese names, often times have married a japanese spouse but aren’t granted the same rights as the japanese just because their grand parent papers say nationality korean. is this the united states you want? although they’re treated as 2nd class citizens they at least receive an education.
as far as the timing of the birth of their child thing goes, this isn’t just something undocumented aliens (i.e hispanic) do. people of privilege do this too.
yes, border states have a large undocumented population and bear the burden of this population; however, picking the vegatables you eat every day, building the house you live in, and clean up after you. most of these aren’t jobs that american want anyways. the cotton pickin’ days of my paternal forbearers are over.
as far as foreign companies building the toll it was such a concern that the state of texas put a moratorium on new toll as this was a concern of texas legislators. the wikipedia entry i quoted earlier only says private companies, but the representatives that were interviewed by austin news station all expressed this as a concern.
I have always been charged sales tax here in CA for downloading itunes, I don’t know why we need a NEW law??
“But the state faces an $8 billion deficit. The Legislature needs money.” When is this not true?
Tax and spend Democrats, led by turncoat Arnold Swarzenager.
“”Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.” for california to ships its prison population to a foreign country would amount to an unusual punishment. “
Sorry for not being clear. I’m not saying that we should ship them to Mexican prisons. I’m saying we house them in facilities located in Mexico, staffed by folks from that country.
“my “conservative yelling to the high heavens” isn’t more of a broad generalization than “tax and spend” liberal. nes pa?”
Yes but you were responding to my post and I’ve never made that generalization. I know many fiscally conservative Democrats. I’ve never met liberal that told me they liked the idea of taxing and spending.
Your McCain analogy is very weak. He was born to US citizens in a US territory. There’s no grey line there. And he’s not running for the Office of Pres of Panama.
Koreans in Japan.
Big difference. They may not be citizens but they are there legally as are their parents correct? Do they have dual citizenship (I don’t know). Could they go to Korea as legal Korean Citizens (not suggesting they should)?
That’s too bad about Koreans in Japan and I wouldn’t want the same in the US.
That’s why I’m saying the undocumented immigrants should be deported to their country of residence. Your example makes a case for a speedy deportation so that their children are not acclimated to our language/culture and then have to adjust to life in their parent’s country.
“as far as the timing of the birth of their child thing goes, this isn’t just something undocumented aliens (i.e hispanic) do. people of privilege do this too.”
That’s not a valid argument to my point that no one should be allowed to do that. I’ll add- regardless of financial status.
“yes, border states have a large undocumented population and bear the burden of this population; however, picking the vegatables you eat every day, building the house you live in, and clean up after you. most of these aren’t jobs that american want anyways. the cotton pickin’ days of my paternal forbearers are over.”
This is my favorite arguement to rebut.
These jobs that you say American’s wont do, pay a wage that is artificially depressed because undocumented workers are willing to accept less pay to do them. Perfect example is construction where wages have fallen over the last decade.
Once a person is a legal resident, they will expect to be payed a fair wage, or wage commensurate to their abilities. Hey, I don’t have to worry about deportation so I’ll speak up, possibly unionize.
This is the catch 22. Once they are legal residents, they will no longer be useful to the dirtbags that take advantage of them.
Shady employers will continuing to seek out the undocumented to pay serfdom wages.
Also- Case in point, there was an ICE raid on a large meat processing plant in Utah (sorry I’m looking for the article but can’t find it). After the raid, the company had to refill the roster and there was a long line of residents wanting to apply for the jobs. I will admit that these transitions from subservient labor to legal labor are not always smooth for either the employers or the employees.
Will there be jobs unattractive to US citizens? Sure. Should we allow employers to seek out labor they can take advantage of? Hell no. I’d be happy to pay extra for food knowing that the folks processing it are making a fair wage.
On a side note, this practice appears to undermine NAFTA (not sure). But so do US Farm subsidies and those show no sign of going away (very sure).
Toll Roads-
Yeah, folks may be concerned but there’s nothing illegal about contracting a foreign based company to do work for you or your Government. I personally would much rather see the contract awarded (fairly) to a Mexican Firm rather than a European, Asian or Middle-Eastern firm. The more fair trade we do with our neighbors the better. Every job generated south of the border raises the Mexican standard of living and that’s good for everyone.
they’re gonna create another pirate revolution if they follow up. Get rid of your bad politicians before it’s too late California. I agree entirely with MDN. Us Puertoricans have been through a similiar nightmare once already.
to house u. s. citizens who are in jail in a foreign country would be unusual punishment as they would be serving their time in a country where they have no rights and those same prisons would not be subject to the same regulations as jails and prisons here.
there is actually a law suit filed against mccain, filed by a republican, to prove one and for all that he is eligible to hold the office of president if elected. yes, panama was a territory at the time and his parents are u.s. citizens. but the question still remains what constitutes “natural born”? does it mean born in the united states and/or territories or does it mean born to american parents regardless of whether or not the place of birth was a u.s. territory at the time. what if the child was born in guam, or on a military base overseas?
neither japan nor korea allow for dual citizenship. many koreans in japan are considered long term resident aliens, there have been programs to repatriate programs after ww ii, many stayed in japan, more and more are trying to become nationalized citizens. not an easy thing to do in japan.
i agree with you that unscrupulous employers use undocumented workers to pay serf wages. while this is wrong there are also many legal permanent workers who still keep these job after becoming legal. i had a friend in college who’s parent came here illegal, all of his brothers and sisters were born here, but they remained migrant workers even after receiving their green cards. these wages are artificially depressed for several reason to keep more money in the pockets of the owners and to keep prices down for the consumer. if the tomato you put on your salad was picked by a citizen making even minimum wage it would cost you more than $0.99 a pound; that’s the plain truth. but you stated you’d be happy to pay more, so we’re agreeing on the same argument.
as for as the meat packing plant is concerned i’m certain that once all this undocumented worker hullabaloo settles those same local will be out of a job as the meat plant goes back to undocumented workers. it’s happened before and will happen again. in colorado because of the exodus of workers they’re now using prisoners to pick crops in some counties. they’re definitely getting paid serf wages.
the toll roads being built in austin by the mexican firm didn’t create jobs in mexico; although it did create jobs locally. once the tolls are completed these jobs will go away, but the profits from the toll will continue to go out of the local and state economy. i agree the more fair trade we do with our neighbors the better off we are, however we’re also in a situation in places like el paso were companies moved jobs across the border because of nafta and created a situation like the maquiladoras all to save money for the corporation. the maquiladoras actually existed a while before nafta but none-the-less american jobs got taken away. this happened to my mom when her levi’s closed it el paso factory and moved across the border, this was way before nafta though.
Why don’t these rich Democrats spend some of their own money before taking it from us regular working peeps? Lying ass hippycrits they is. And what’s with all this talk of a bad economy? Where?????????????????
Been paying sales tax on everything from Apple here in South Dakota… and that includes iTunes purchases.
Where’s the physical presence of Apple in this state? A couple of resellers? There is certainly no Apple Store here, no AT&T;, NO iPhones.
We have no state income tax though, which is a bit of a consolation.
They say that americans are polarized politically. Reading this thread really drives home that point.
Thank god, i don’t live in california. Democrats will tax you taking a dump if they could.
do i smell a california tunes party?
The current Administration doesn’t seem to have much credibility. Who said the Iraq War would pay for itself? Why, the Bush Administration’s experts did:
“More people get killed in New York every night than get killed in Baghdad. The fact of life is that there will never be such a thing as one hundred percent security–it doesn’t exist.” – L. Paul Bremer III
Director of the Coalition Provisional Authority, 8/2003
“Iraq is a very wealthy country. Enormous oil reserves. They can finance, largely finance the reconstruction of their own country. And I have no doubt that they will.” – Richard Perle, chair
The Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board, 7/11/2002
“The likely economic effects [of a war in Iraq] would be relatively small…. Under every plausible scenario, the negative effect will be quite small relative to the economic benefits.” – Lawrence Lindsey, White House economic adviser, 9/16,/2002
“It is unimaginable that the United States would have to contribute hundreds of billions of dollars and highly unlikely that we would have to contribute even tens of billions of dollars.” – Kenneth Pollack, former director for Persian Gulf affairs, National Security Council, 9/2002
“The costs of any intervention would be very small.” – Glenn Hubbard, White House economic adviser, 10/ 4/ 2002
“Iraq has tremendous resources that belong to the Iraqi people. And so there are a variety of means that Iraq has to be able to shoulder much of the burden for their own reconstruction.” – Ari Fleischer, White House press secretary, 2/18/2003
“When it comes to reconstruction, before we turn to the American taxpayer, we will turn first to the resources of the Iraqi government and the international community.” – Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, 3/27/2003
“There is a lot of money to pay for this that doesn’t have to be US taxpayer money, and it starts with the assets of the Iraqi people. We are talking about a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon.” – Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense, testifying before the defense subcommittee
of the House Appropriations Committee, 3/27/2003
“The United States is very committed to helping Iraq recover from the conflict, but Iraq will not require sustained aid.” – Mitchell Daniels, director, White House Office of Management and Budget
4/21/2003
“The allies [have contributed] $14 billion in direct aid.” – Dick Cheney, vice presidential debate with Democratic candidate John Edwards, 10/ 5/2004 (Actually, $13 billion was PLEDGED, and on the date Cheney spoke only $1 billion had arrived. As of 10/28, 2007, the National Priorities Project estimated that the American taxpayers’ share of Iraq War costs exceeded $463 billion. Projected total cost, including care of injured veterans, has been projected to be nearly $3.5 TRILLION)
A former Republican senator from Maine once that that people like to speak of the government as an enemy – until they need a friend! Just consider the current mess on Wall Street, and the Fed’s bail out of Bear Sterns. It doesn’t seem to have occurred to anyone that greed is not self-regulatory.
When conservatives attempt to canonize Reagan, they tend to forget that he raised taxes 3 times: TEFRA, 1982, for example, was the largest tax increase in history. Reagan, to his credit, was a pragmatist.
“…And what’s with all this talk of a bad economy? Where?????????????????”
USA, 2008 – According to Martin Feldstein, George F. Baker Professor of Economics at Harvard, President of National Bureau of Economic Research, and Reagan’s chief economic adviser, the US is in a recession that will be unusually long and severe
These mother fucking a**holes. This is what my friend had to say about this, and I couldn’t agree with him more:
“Have you seen that fu**ing California legislators are going to TAX ITUNES? Because they allowed ENRON to TAKE OFF with our fucking money? We have to stop these a**holes. What these people have to do is GET OUR MONEY BACK. THEY NEVER TRACKED THE MAJORITY OF THOSE ASSHOLES DOWN, THEY NEVER RECOVERED THE MONEY, AND NOW I, YOU, AND STEVE JOBS HAVE TO BAIL OUT CALIFORNIA? Our politicians have to be held accountable for holding criminals accountable, and I’m not bailing this land mass of morons out on this one. Neither should you.”
@ ch blackthorne
well, at least the current Administration is not trying to tax itunes.
: P so there.
The Real Issue…
I’ve ready dozens of posts here, and I don’t believe I’ve seen what I think is the “real” issue… I believe the real issue is how the Democrats are attempting to get a tax past the people with only a majority vote! That is slime to the nth degree, in my opinion. Normally, a tax in California requires 2/3 vote by the legislative branch, but the Democrats are simply trying to change a word in an existing law, and hence adding a tax – that process only requires a majority vote. They are bypassing the intent of the law to get a tax enacted.
Just my 2 cents. Lots of good stuff in the blogs, but the slime of the democrats is my issue with the whole deal.
@TMac
If you want to live in a conservative state with little in the way of taxation you can always move to New Hampshire or some other state.
The simple fact is that California has a HUGE state government with a massive fixed cost base. Many of the reasons so many live there and keep coming is due to many of those services and the life they afford to the people.
It costs money to water a metro area of 7 million (greater LA) that has only enough water for 30,000 people. It costs money to operate the extensive state higher-ed system that is the envy of most other states and much of the world. It costs money to maintain a massive road network in an earthquake-prone state where public transit is largely a dirty word. It costs a lot of money to operate school districts teeming with immigrants from all over the world.
These challenges and others make California what it is, but also give the state the vibrancy and diversity that make it the engine of creativity and enterprise that it is. It’s not likely to change and to insist on it is like trying to force the sun to rise in the west and et in the east.
Bottom line-
Deal with California for what it is or move. It is what it is and is the monster it is because of it’s uniqueness.
@The Answer
Just wait until the real brunt of the economic woes hit in the third quarter. You’ll probably be taxed if you take a piss. Oh wait they do that already in the water you take from Nevada. California really sounds like nice place to be from. Let’s just say that I am glad that there are those of you who like to pay taxes and more of them. You really sound intelligent!
That’s George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing about him is that I read three–three or four books about him last year. Isn’t that interesting?
–George W. Bush
Washington, DC
05/05/2006
talking to a German newspaper reporter in the Oval Office
Sometimes when I sleep at night I think of (Dr. Seuss’s) ‘Hop on Pop.’
–George W. Bush
Washington, DC
04/02/2002
in a speech about childhood education
—Any questions?
@ChrissyOne
“Sure, that was Ted Kennedy doing that, I saw him.”
Actually, he was on his way there to do it… but suddenly his car veered off the bridge and his pregnant secretary went down in the car while Teddy swam to shore, slept overnight at a friend’s house, before, oh yeah, calling the police!
Well, after reading this thread, I have to say that it is a toss-up between Shen and G-Spank for the most clichéd and sophomoric posts.
Hi guys. It was enough to make a body ashamed of the human race. Help me! Can not find sites on the: Truth about detox foot pads. I found only this –
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />, Jocosa from Northern.
Hey. A physicist is an atom’s way of knowing about atoms. Help me! Help to find sites on the: Vibrator inserted. I found only this –
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”mad” style=”border:0;” />, Duglas from Salvador.