Google + Apple + Al Gore’s Current TV = ?

216 Comments

Apple Store“Earlier this week, fellow Fool Rick Munarriz wrote about Google CEO Eric Schmidt accepting a seat on Apple’s (Nasdaq: AAPL) board. Rick suggested that Schmidt’s move was about making life miserable for Microsoft. I’ve got a different idea,” Jack Uldrich writes for The Motley Fool.

“In the short term, I think it’s more about Apple landing a spot for its iTunes digital media service on Google’s toolbar, and Google finding new ways to leverage its advertising network. In the longer term, though the picture begins to get cloudy, I have a sneaking suspicion that video content will play an increasing role in the two companies’ future relationship,” Uldrich writes. “Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I see a link here, in the person of former Vice President Al Gore.”

“A board member at Apple and “special advisor” to Google, Gore recently turned Hollywood star with a leading role in the global-warming documentary An Inconvenient Truth. In addition to his political and environment interests, Gore is also the founder and owner of Current TV, a current-affairs TV channel that shows user-generated programs,” Uldrich writes. “I find Gore’s roles at Apple, Google, and Current TV particularly interesting.”

Uldrich writes, “It could be true that Google, Apple, and Current TV won’t do anything together to rival television — but color me skeptical. For one thing, Gore was also at the Edinburgh event, where he said that he hopes his new channel will reach 50 million people by 2010. A little help from Google and Apple could only help to meet such an ambitious goal… If Google does have plans to eventually rival TV, I’d simply encourage the company to be more candid about them. But then again, showing its hand so early might be just the sort of strategy that Al Gore would advise Google against.”

Full article here.
You know, because “Current TV” is soooo very successful and Al Gore’s strategic advice is soooo tremendously valuable – almost as much as Naomi Wolf’s.

The usual late-August Apple news lull seems to have caused a particularly virulent strain of daftness this year.

We think Apple put Google’s CEO on the board because Steve thought it made the boardroom table visually balanced from his perspective: four per side. Having four guys sitting on one side and just three on the other was driving him absolutely crazy! It’s really that simple.

Plus, as anybody knows, 8 is better than 7: the 8 spokes of the Dharmachakra, the 8 dynamics of life, tarot card No. 8 means “strength,” turn an 8 sideways and you have ∞, Carl Yastrzemski’s retired number, 8 maids a-milking, etc.

Related articles:
Google CEO on Apple’s board opens up many possibilities, including outdueling Microsoft – August 31, 2006
Re: Google CEO elected to Apple Computer’s Board of Directors – August 30, 2006
Dvorak: Does Apple’s board addtion of Google’s Schmidt portend Apple-Sun merger? – August 30, 2006
Apple and Google cozy up to make Microsoft jealous – August 30, 2006
Google CEO to help shape Apple’s future – August 30, 2006
Google CEO Dr. Eric Schmidt joins Apple’s Board of Directors – August 29, 2006

216 Comments

  3. Remember this?

    Thought you might be interested in this forgotten bit of information……….

    It was 1987! At a lecture the other day they were playing an old news video of Lt.Col. Oliver North testifying at the Iran-Contra hearings during the Reagan Administration.

    There was Ollie in front of God and country getting the third degree, but what he said was stunning!

    He was being drilled by a senator; “Did you not recently spend close to $60,000 for a home security system?”
    Ollie replied, “Yes, I did, Sir.”
    The senator continued, trying to get a laugh out of the audience, “Isn’t that just a little excessive?”
    “No, sir,” continued Ollie.
    “No? And why not?” the senator asked.
    “Because the lives of my family and I were threatened, sir.”
    “Threatened? By whom?” the senator questioned.
    “By a terrorist, sir” Ollie answered.
    “Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that much?”
    “His name is Osama bin Laden, sir” Ollie replied.

    At this point the senator tried to repeat the name, but couldn’t pronounce it, which most people back then probably couldn’t. A couple of people laughed at the attempt. Then the senator continued. Why are you so afraid of this man?” the senator asked.

    “Because, sir, he is the most evil person alive that I know of”, Ollie answered.
    “And what do you recommend we do about him?” asked the senator.
    “Well, sir, if it was up to me, I would recommend that an assassin team be formed to eliminate him and his men from the face of the earth.”

    The senator disagreed with this approach, and that was all that was shown of the clip.

    By the way, that senator was Al Gore.

    Also:
    Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called “political prisoners.”

    However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their hands. The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, “insisted” that all prisoners be released.

    Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists were first identified.
    It was censored in the US from all later reports.

    Reply

  4. Why the hating on Al Gore? He invented the internet. Everyone jokes about it but seriously, without the work he did in the Senate to get certain projects funded we would most likely not have the internet we know and love to today.

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  7. So Al Gore owns Current? Cool. That’s a neat network. I don’t watch it regularly, but when there’s nothing else on, I flip over. It’s never boring. And it looks like the network is run on a shoestring, so I doubt it needs much in the way of ratings to break even.

    (Oh, and the reason for the hating on Al Gore is because the site is run by right-leaners. It becomes obvious the longer you pay attention.)

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  8. Granny–the terrorist’s name was Abu Nidal, you menopausal, neo-facist, Lily Riefenstal (I’m too mad to care if I spelled that correctly) wanna-be!

    Look it up in the Congressional record. I don’t have to, because I was WATCHING IT AT THE TIME!

    Oh yeah, Ollie shitting all over the uniform he didn’t deserve. Makes one proud.

    Reply

  11. LordRobin,

    It’s obvious that MDN is joking, you insipid, tight-ass, insular “left-leaner.” Hey, I know ’em when I see ’em! (That’s a joke, too: see my “name?”)

    Al Gore is fine. And a fine target for poking fun. Or are only Bush and Cheney allowed to be made fun of in your tiny little world?

    Lighten up.

    Reply

  12. We hate Al Gore because we must NOT think for ourselves.

    Right = right! Always! There can be NO dissenting voices in democracy!

    What America needs is more of the same! MDN knows this and they cannot abide non-Republicans!

    This post will be deleted in 3… 2… and 1!

    Reply

  14. Again, it just goes to show that it sure doesn’t take much to draw the commie leftists around here offsides. Reading your dramatic (and often highly inaccurate factually) overreactions are always quite hilarious.

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  20. MacBill,

    Thanks for the URL; I loved the video. And I am sure the neo-conservatives* will guarantee that the Republican presidential candidate wins in 2008 as well.

    *(Neo-conservative? What’s so new about fascism?)

    Reply

  26. LordRobin – agree with you. I too change the channel to Current just to see what is on. Some of the spots are very clever. Didn’t know AG owned the network either.

    I am totally SURPRISED that Apple users are NOT bigger fans of Current given great tools such as iLife, Final Cut Express, etc. and how Mac users are suppose to be on the “creative” side. Who knew?

    MDN – you must be having a bad day. IMHO – your take is well BELOW your usual standard. The only point you made – and not very clearly I might add – is that you disagree with the article. Sarcasm – without providing any additional information about why you disagree with the article – is unbecoming and does not provide the readers with any real value / information.

    I’ll get off my soap box now. Peace.

    Reply

  27. iTunes digital media service into the Google Toolbar? I really don´t know who uses that toolbar. I use my mac every day for work and for home, and I don´t need that Google toolbar, and I really don´t think that getting the CEO of Google into Apple´s Board has to do anything with getting iTunes into the Toolbar….. it seems very stupid to me!

    I really think that it is a good move to have the CEO of Google in apple´s Board, but I think it would be even better to have Steve Jobs in Google´s Board!!!!! That would mean awsome Google + Mac integration! leave the windows world behind! more than it is already!

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  28. Al Gore (as VP I believe) was instrumental in pushing through legislation that put financial backing into the internet – insuring that it would be what it is today.
    I remember watching Al Gore on television talking about his legislation funding the Information Highway. Remember the Information Highway. Now it’s called the internet. Do a little reading.

    Al Gore – Unlike that puppet George Bush – is on the Apple board because Steve Jobs finds him to be a great value to Apple. Because Al Gore is a brilliant man.

    George Bush would no doubt be the kiss of death were he to find himself as a board member at Apple. Not to even bring up V.P. Cheney. Apple would be drained of all cash in a year.

    Every business venture that GWB has ever been in – when it ran out of funded money – went bankrupt. Kind of like what he’s doing to the U.S.

    Reply

  30. Granny,

    Ollie North did not site Osama bin Laden as the terrorist out to get him. In fact, bin Laden was a U.S. ally at the time – a ‘freedom fighter’ in Afghanistan. The terrorist North named was Abu Nidal, a Palestinian guerrila leader.

    As for Atta, this rumor originally sited Reagan as the president who let Atta go. But the truth is that no president forced anyone to release Atta. The Mohammed Atta involved in the Israel bus bombing in 1986 was actually captured by the FBI when he tried to come to the U.S. He was extradicted to Israel in 1990 and is serving a life term in prison. He is not the Mohammed Atta who was involved in the 9/11 attacks. Some name, different guy.

    Facts should be checked before spreading such stories. It is easy to do.

    Here are non-partisan articles debunking your bunk:
    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.asp

    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/atta.asp

    Reply

  37. “The 10 hottest years in recorded human history have all occured in the last 14 years.” (i.e. since the human race was carefully, properly measuring the temperature and writing it down)

    This is the take home 1 liner from An Inconvenient Truth.

    Am I the only person who finds this to be absolutely frightening?

    I’m surprised nobody else has brought this up.

    (if you haven’t yet seen the movie, see it or buy the dvd.)

    I welcome logical, thoughtful, factual comment on this. This is the big Al Gore issue – try and get with the times here people.

    Reply

  38. Left or Right, the web has made the spreading of bogus info easier than ever. There are plenty of unsupportable “facts” coming from both sides. Rather than pointing fingers at those you don’t agree with and slamming them for being “liars” when they sincerely think they are being honest, we all need to put a check on tongues and typing fingers before speak or type something that we haven’t exhaustively substantiated.

    I’ll tell you all what I hate. That is coming here for Mac news and seeing this spew of political bile.

    Give it a rest.

    Reply

  40. Al Gore is “brilliant”? OMG, I had to read that three times to make sure I was reading it right.

    And any idiot who believe “A Inconvenient Truth” is a “documentary” and not a bunch of bullshit propaganda probably also thinks Michael Moore really does write non-fiction movies.

    Reply

  41. >>Am I the only person who finds this to be absolutely frightening?

    Unfortunately, no, you’re not the only moron gullible enough to believe it. Try doing some research on so-called “global warming” and find out the truth, not the Al Gore politics.

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  42. Oh, don’t get in the way of Bush-voting Republicans and their little worlds of Democratic-loathing make-believe.

    The next thing you’ll be asking them to do is reconsider their support for “young earth” creationism or intelligent design.

    Bush-voting Republicans hate Gore because they fear that he’ll influence the 2008 by endorsing a candidate who’ll catch a public mood of environmental concern. So they’ll ridicule him and his views and they’ll lie about him and spread disinformation about his family.

    But when these people have the gall to talk about how Gore gets all of his money from oil, it’s worth pointing out which party’s candidates get the most funding from oil and gas companies or from the PR/lobbying firms that represent them (step forward, all those Republican politicians in Oklahoma, Texas, Nebraska, Louisiana and all the the other oil/gas states).

    And when they take potshots at Gore re: the Internet myth, the question they should really be asking is what the people they support have done to support innovation in the information technology sphere and to make sure that innovation was made available to the widest audience at the least cost. But that would require an analytical mind, hell it would require a mind.

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  44. I am a conservative. Al Gore seemed like a very good senator(not as good as Howard Baker, though) and an average VP. It has always amazed me how quickly he went downhill after the 2000 election. He was hilarious on SNL, then he got scarey. Maybe that explains why he is the ONLY presidential candidate I can recall that did not win his home state. Maybe they knew him better than we. I bet that bothered him more than Florida, which after 3 recounts by the media, showed Bush clearly won. Gore had more popular votes nationwide, but the Framers saw the wisdom of the electoral college to help smaller states have an equal say in national politics. And don’t even mention the Supreme Court. That was a Federal election covered by Federal laws, of which the Florida Supreme Court had NO jurisdiction. Let’s see that on Current TV!

    Reply

  45. Spark:

    Sorry, Sparky, I suppose that you could blame Al Gore for all public discourse here at MDN. Al did invent the internet, you know, and without Al none of this would have been possible. Therefore, if you have a beef, it’s with Al not with anyone here.

    Seriously, the best thing for you to do is to learn to live with it, because you are not going to make anyone change his or her behavior. Alternatively, you can choose never come back to MDN because, in all probability, you will find more of the same. Something about freedom of the press, oppressed, repressed, depressed, impressed, distressed, confessed, accessed, undressed, and I digress. I don’t know, you figure it out.

    Reply

  48. Since when did so many Mac users become 15 year-old rednecks? Must be all the Windows switchers. Explains why journalists and anybody not a Mac Zealot complains that anytime they criticize Apple they are electronically spat upon by Mac fanatics because of their non-belief. Makes me want to switch to Linux more everyday.

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  49. C´mon people get real, if it wasn´t for Bill Clinton picking Al Gore as VP, Al Gore would be long gone and disappeared from the celebrity politician landscape. Bill Clinton made Gore.
    Gore failed (for whatever reasons of the political debate you want to be on). Gore is a loser – twice now. Why Steve Jobs got himself involved with Gore when there are so many better Democrats to choose from one has no idea.

    What has Al Gore ever done for Apple? Please, somebody give me a concrete example. Are there any minutes of Apple board meetings where we could see what he contributed to the bottom line of Apple? Did Al maybe secretly gave Steve the idea for the iPod and Al is too humble to take credit? Did Al give Steve the “i” idea?

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  50. Interesting correlation, the more criticism liberal politicians receive at MDN, the more strident the comments from their supporters about the excesses of political discussions. Well, lads, get used to it, because, unlike some other countries, you cannot silence the voices the people.

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  51. More speculation, just like idiots who thought Steve Jobs was going to run for President of the US because Al Gore joined Apple’s board of directors.

    Steve Jobs is making sure what happened with the board the last time he was in charge of Apple won’t happen again.

    I don’t blame him, FSCKING JOHN SCULLY ASSHOLE.

    Reply

  57. Current TV rules! They were doing user-generated video long before it was popularized by YouTube and Google Video.

    (I love the show Google Current.)

    Mixing it up with Apple can’t be that bad.

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  59. Don’t get too excited about the veracity of Gore’s information in “An Inconvenient Truth”. Here’s what Al told Grist Magazine about global warming, when asked about the film’s doomsday scenarios:

    “I believe it is appropriate to have an overrepresentation of factual presentations on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience.”

    Science steps aside for politics…

    Reply

  60. mudflapper:

    You betray your bigotry and your stupidity by making the foolish, biased, unsubstantiated, and irresponsible accusation that “the religious right” is inclusively culpable for spreading lies. I thought that you left-wingers were above promoting self-righteous generalizations and sanctimonious stereotypes. Tsk, tsk, pointing out the mite…. (you know the rest).

    Reply

  62. I can use a computer to call people names! Thanks for my new computer! I’m important now! I can tell people my opinion and they will read it out of sheer curiosity!

    Mega dittos ditto-heads! Ya take that! Stick it! Yeah! I’m cool! I’m 4 years old!

    This is really sad. MDN sux.

    Reply

  63. There’s something almost orgasmic in reading about conservative macheads. As a liberal I have seen the pattern that conservatives don’t have a creative bone in their bodies. They only know how to destroy, take down, curse or ridicule, people, places or things. So it’s with twisted satisfaction that I watch them and ooooh and aaaah over macs, a computer that was created in a liberal village with liberals, and the in the minds of great liberals. Aaah the pleasure.

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  64. Oh, thanks a lot for starting this MDN!

    And speaking of being pissed, where the hell are my two free iPod Nanos that were promised to me on an ad on your site? You know, the one that speaks right up and says you are one of the specially chosen to receive two Nanos if you just go through this questionnaire?

    Of course I should have known – but it was on MDN, after all….

    No Nano’s, natch!

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  65. HmmmmmHmmmmm
    What is so creative about what you just posted? Being a liberal does not make you creative. Being a conservative does not make you a bore. I completely agree with you about liberals being more creative on the whole, but not exclusively. I could also accuse y’all of creating false realities, but that is not the purpose of this response.
    Libs and conservatives have a completely different outlook on life. That doesn’t make them mutually exclusive. What good is being creative when the money to finance that ability may well come from the “uncreative” portion of our society? Is it that hard for liberals to appreciate the value of anything conservatives do? I have been a musician most of my 44 years. I enjoy everything from Merle Haggard to Joni Mitchel. Allmans to Weather Report. Bach to Wagner. Miles Davis to Dwight Yoakam.
    Al Green to White Stripes. I take a pass on most rap and opera. My point is this, I hear too much bigotry and smugness in your comment. Try humor next time.

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  67. Heated political discussion is one thing, but this demonizing of people who dissagree with you is one of the most disturbing developments in this country of the last twenty years.

    Politics is not like football. Your team is not always right (which ever side that is) and trying to burn your opponent to the ground leaves no room for discussion.

    This is NOT the way politics has been run in this country when it is successful.

    Oh yeah and this is a Mac new site and I’m a conservative when it comes to pull down menus & quite liberal when it comes to RAM.

    Reply

  68. TowerTone
    I am completely where you are on the music and the politics. I am the same way. And actually I was wrong in using the term “conservative”. There are great conservatives out there and alot who disagree with this murderous bloated administration. The word I should have actually used is “wingnut”. As for the bigotry and the smugness you thought you heard….it was deliberately injected, not because I believe it…I was just baiting them….as they do the liberals. Why you might ask? Because, it’s fun.

    Have to commend you on your music taste. It’s weird how close our taste run. Lately I’ve been overcoming my aversion to opera (Bocelli is great). A couple of raps on my ipod too. Today’s music SUCK. Really SUCK!! The range of music on my ipod would make you laugh. From A-Z in genres, I probably have at least one song.

    Well hope my comment set you straight. There are people dying everyday and these wingers still stand behind this racist, unjust, murderous administration and cheer on as children are raped and murdered, soilders loose their arms and legs and lives, we the tax payers are robbed blind by Halliburton and Blackwater. The least I can do is needle them wherever I find them. Next time please don’t interrupt my fun. Please.

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  69. “This is NOT the way politics has been run in this country when it is successful. ”

    Fortunately that is not true at all. In fact, it is much better today than at many times in our country’s history. Nowadays, people hold signs across the street from each other and sling names on the internet. In the past when people disagreed politically (or otherwise) we had things like the Civil War, The shooting of Alexander Hamilton, The death of Abraham Lincoln, The killing of Joseph Smith, the shooting of Kennedy, and the attempted impeachment of Andrew Johnson.

    The beauty of America is that when people argue, tanks don’t start rolling in the streets. If the controversy over the 2000 election happened almost anywhere else in the world, there would have been deaths involved.

    Oh yeah, and what do you mean by “when it (the country) is successful”. O think we are pretty darn successful, and have been since the seventies.

    Reply

  71. There are people dying everyday and these wingers still stand behind this racist, unjust, murderous administration and cheer on as children are raped and murdered, soilders loose their arms and legs and lives, we the tax payers are robbed blind by Halliburton and Blackwater.

    No offense, but you really need to learn the facts.

    First of all, I do not understand how this administration is “racist, unjust and murderous”. I understand that people die in wars, and that ward SUCK. However, the murderers and racists are the people that decide to fly planes into buildings, strap bombs to children, and declare that the zionists and infidels must be destroyed for no other reason than that they exist.

    Also I don’t think I have ever met a single person that “cheers on as children are raped and murdered”. However, I do know that Saddam Hussein paid people to rape woman as a torture method, and killed many of his countries children, and he is no longer in business. I do cheer that.

    You are correct that soldiers do lose arms and lives. But what you neglect is that they volunteered to fight, knowing full well the possible consequences. They did this so that the fights would not be here on our streets, or on our planes. They did it so that you would continue to have the freedom to spew misinformed nonsense.

    As for Halliburton, can you name another company that has the man power, facilities and equipment to do the job of rebuilding? I don’t think you can. I don’t understand why it is that left-wingnuts constantly bash companies for sending jobs overseas, but then bash companies that hire thousands of Americans.

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  72. “Hey! I killed JFK. Credit where credit’s due, you Capitalist American Pig!”

    Heym maybe you really are still alive. I thought your brother was just playing “weekend at Bernie’s” with you.

    MDN Word: Beyond, as in “I just got a response from Fidel….from beyond the grave.

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  73. Anyone that says Al Gore is a moron must have scored lower on their SAT’s than Bush. You can call Gore many things and maintain some sense of intelligence, but to call him a moron is only showing the world how truly ignorant you really are.

    Oh and by the way I scored better on my SATs than our current president, which I think is rather sad.

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  74. MDN started all this with their inflammatory ‘take’, cool it fellas, it was a cheap shot.

    Anyone who thinks wars is about protecting you, and not in anyway about obscene profits, be careful, you’re powers of observation aren’t working properly.

    GWB & Co. are about wealth concentration a.k.a., ‘trickle down economics’, and They’re having a party, and we aren’t invited. They are doing anything that they think they can get away with in order to concentrate wealth and power. And when I say anything, I mean it, can we get a true investigation, instead of the whitewash known as the “9/11 Omission Report”?

    Watch “V for Ventetta” for an entertaining, yet scary, very real potential future. Outside of the glamorized violence, IMHO, it’s a great movie.

    Let’s stop dividing ourselves, because its Us vs. the State. Where are the true Conservatives (fiscal sanity, small government) when we need them?

    peace, understanding, abundance and health to you all

    Reply

  76. Ray Lane

    It is you who need to learn the facts.

    “First of all, I do not understand how this administration is “racist, unjust and murderous”.

    Racist. Remember Katrina. Lots Black people will NEVER forget their treatment by this administration. That includes the water trucks being turned away, abandoned on rooftops, left to drown, redneck sheriffs firing guns at women and children trying to cross a bridge and countless other stories. YOU LEARN your facts. I have mine down cold.

    Unjust. Remember Abu Graib. Our little Attorney General who gave permission to torture the men, women and children of Iraq. Remember private contractors forcing Iraqi men to rape the boys. Remember women being raped by American soilders. Remember the Iraqi man standing on the battery attached to his testicles with the hood over head. You know they call the in Iraq? THE STATUE OF LIBERTY. YOU LEARN your facts.

    Murderous. Let’s see how many people they’ve killed now. The the last “official” number is approximately 130,000 people. But the middle east media says its closer 200,000 Iraq. Men women, but mostly children. Bombs, melted children from white phosphorous. Depleted uranium. Lots of freedom and democracy there. They must love it. They have the Iraq that they’ve always dreamed about.

    As for the soilders. They signed to defend the country from REAL threats. Not threats made up by a bunch of greed, racist, rich men who only want to go war to kill and rob people. Our soilders did not sign up to be exploited. They were guardians against real enemies. Not fake ones. So them losing their lives and body parts based on lies is disgusting. And dishonorable to any decent human being.

    But don’t worry, they’re not going to expect people like you to stand for them since they can’t stand for themselves. The military is one place democracy does not exist. You’ll be too busy cheering on their next sacrifice for a war we’ve already lost and saying “oh well, that’s what they signed up for”, they deserved it”

    Oh, by the way…you’re favorite company Hallliburton has robbed you and every other American by overcharging our soilders for supplies and services. They’ve fed contaminated food and water to our soilders. Which makes sense, since they probably don’t expect alot of them to live anyway. You know, lots of improvised explosive opportunities to erase evidence.

    Do yourself a favor and go do some REAL reading. From all over the world. Start with BBC. Stopped being programmed by rightwing nuttery media. Think for yourself based on information from sources other than Fox News and rightnut radio.
    Don’t you at least owe that much to the soilders who are dead for your right to do that?

    Reply

  78. YOU LEARN your facts. I have mine down cold.

    Except for the fact that both the Governor and mayor are Democrats. And last I checked, they are the ones responsible for taking care of their citizens. The federal government is responsible for cleaning up their mess. The Mayor of New Orleans did nothing to help get his citizens out of that city, and last I checked, he is black. Is he a racist too?

    “Unjust. Remember Abu Graib. Our little Attorney General who gave permission to torture the men, women and children of Iraq. Remember private contractors forcing Iraqi men to rape the boys. Remember women being raped by American soilders. Remember the Iraqi man standing on the battery attached to his testicles with the hood over head. You know they call the in Iraq? THE STATUE OF LIBERTY. YOU LEARN your facts.”

    I woul love to know what you consider torture. Abu Graib was by no means torture. And you also forget that the men held their are TERRORISTS!

    As for the other things mentioned, I recall no evidence of Iraqi men being forced to rape boys. Furthermore, if you check your facts you would know that the soldiers involved in some of those other atrocities were courtmarshalled.

    “The the last “official” number is approximately 130,000 people.”

    If we keep it up, some day we may reach Saddam’s numbers. I believe he killed between 300,000 and 500,000. But I guess to you that was OK?

    “As for the soilders. They signed to defend the country from REAL threats. Not threats made up by a bunch of greed, racist, rich men who only want to go war to kill and rob people. Our soilders did not sign up to be exploited. They were guardians against real enemies. Not fake ones. So them losing their lives and body parts based on lies is disgusting. And dishonorable to any decent human being. “

    Nonsense. I suppose that when terrorists fly planes into our buildings that’s not a real threat. And what exactly did these greedy men rob? Oh yeah, nothing. Last I checked, it cost us money, but hy stick to facts when name calling is so much easier. I would love to know what lies they were told as well. I know you guys love to claim the WMDs were the lies, but the problem with that argument is two-fold. If the WMD angle was a lie, then that means Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, Tom Dascle are also liars as they made statements about the WMDs as well…before Bush was President. However, that does not matter as we KNOW that these weapons do or did exist. These weapons had been inventoried by the UN. The big question is “where are they know?” that is what is truly scary.

    “But don’t worry, they’re not going to expect people like you to stand for them since they can’t stand for themselves. The military is one place democracy does not exist. You’ll be too busy cheering on their next sacrifice for a war we’ve already lost and saying “oh well, that’s what they signed up for”, they deserved it”

    Last I checked we won the Iraq War in about two weeks. As for the rest of your statement, it is just a disgusting attack….which is often used when you have no facts to use.

    “Oh, by the way…you’re favorite company Hallliburton has robbed you and every other American by overcharging our soilders for supplies and services. They’ve fed contaminated food and water to our soilders. Which makes sense, since they probably don’t expect alot of them to live anyway. You know, lots of improvised explosive opportunities to erase evidence.”

    Their not my favorite company. And I fully support actions taken against them for any misdeeds.

    “Do yourself a favor and go do some REAL reading. From all over the world. Start with BBC. Stopped being programmed by rightwing nuttery media. Think for yourself based on information from sources other than Fox News and rightnut radio.
    Don’t you at least owe that much to the soilders who are dead for your right to do that?”

    I’ve done plenty of reading and watching and listening. But why is it that Fox News and Talk Radio are”nuttery media” just because you perceive them as right wing. Yet there is no criticism for left wing media like the BBC, CNN, or CBS?

    On a final note. If you notice, I have not had to resort to name calling in order to make my points. If you want to be taken seriousluy, use facts, not mud.

    Reply

  80. Do I seem upset with MDN’s take? Not at all, considering the real crimes happening right now… the proof to my point is the number of posts up already. If you think the road to fascism we’re on isn’t real check this http://www.free-market.net/towards-liberty/new-census.html or check this http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=731

    quick note to keen observers.. as on 9/11/01 the gov. was conducting a military drill, faking hijacked airplanes, hench the military ‘stand down’, they are doing another one in Chicago on 9/7. Not sure if it’s going to ‘go real’, but ya never know. http://cbs2chicago.com/local/local_story_237183654.html

    Fear = political capital = fascism.

    Are we having fun yet?

    MW-find, as in find out for yourself, don’t take Corporate/Governmental slanted news at face value.

    Reply

  81. Also, with all the political debating over who is or would be a better president or why we should or shouldn’t be in Iraq. Could somebody offer a solution to the terrorist problem? That’s what I would like to hear. If we are doing everything wrong, what should we do? Or what should we have done.

    Reply

  82. There is no such thing as liberal media, which they should be, as in a watchdog towards those in power. AirAmerica, except for Mike Malloy, who recently got canned, sadly, is mostly milk toast. DemocracyNow is almost liberal media, but who’s even heard of it, let alone listens to it.

    Reply

  83. perhaps we can stop treating Israel like a ‘trust fund baby’, and make them accountable to what they do with American Taxpayer’s money. Additionally we can stop supporting regimes who treat there people like shit. (Saudi Arabia)(China) [Rumour had it that Michael Moore was creating a documentary on the Bush/Bin Ladin/Saudi ties, I guess he got threatened, because he dropped that as he is now going after the Big Drug Companies.] We can stop harassing leaders who are actually helping their own people. (Chavez)

    the US provides, by far, the world with most of it’s killing machines, can our economy survive a more humane trade policy?

    Reply

  84. RayLane,

    Did you know, a large number of prisoners at AbuGhraib were released being found innocent of what they were being held for?
    http://newsfromrussia.com/society/2005/10/25/66160.html
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/15/AR2006061501930.html

    Did you know that children as young as 11 were being held at Abu Ghraib?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4339511.stm

    Did you know that Iraq was involved in an 8 year war with Iran?
    Did you know that they had the support of the American government in said war?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._support_for_Saddam_during_the_Iran-Iraq_war

    Did you know that there is no connection with the 9-11 terrorists and Saddam Hussein’s regime?
    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/attack/140133_bushiraq18.html

    Did you know all these things?
    Did you have your facts down cold?

    Reply

  85. “There is no such thing as liberal media, which they should be, as in a watchdog towards those in power. AirAmerica, except for Mike Malloy, who recently got canned, sadly, is mostly milk toast. DemocracyNow is almost liberal media, but who’s even heard of it, let alone listens to it.”

    No such thing as Liberal Media? Are you kidding? Read ‘Bias’ by Bernard Goldberg. He is an admitted liberal who wrote all about how CBS distorts the news to fit the liberal agenda. Let’s not forget CBS is also the network that used forged documents to taint a sitting president during a re-election year. Both Dan Rather and Walter Cronkite attend Democrat fundraisers. Do I need to go on?

    Reply

  86. yea, you need to go on…. Democrats are not liberals, they are at best ‘moderates’… Goldberg’s book was a crock. Some reporters, maybe even most are liberals, which would make sense, they know wtf is going on. But after that it doesn’t matter if they are, they Do Not Decide what is printed or aired. Don’t you realize that there are not major differences between the two major parties? They merely play off of each other, doing what the “other” side can’t get away with, two famous examples include Nixon opening the doors to China in the early 70’s and Clinton chiseling away at welfare, and signing NAFTA during the 90’s.

    Reply

  87. “Did you know, a large number of prisoners at AbuGhraib were released being found innocent of what they were being held for?”

    And your point is what?

    Did you know that children as young as 11 were being held at Abu Ghraib?

    Again, your point is?

    Did you know that Iraq was involved in an 8 year war with Iran?

    yes.

    Did you know that they had the support of the American government in said war?

    yes

    Did you know we allied with the evil Russians in World War 2? What difference does that make?

    “Did you know that there is no connection with the 9-11 terrorists and Saddam Hussein’s regime?”

    First of all, that is incorrect. Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9-11 attacks. Al Qaeda had been in correspondence with Saddam Hussein since the early 1990s. In that time, Iraq provided safe haven for members of AlQaeda, hostied weapons training, financing and encampment.

    Irregardless of these ties, Saddam Hussein supported terrorism in the West Bank through monetary support, he defied UN sanctions, and the treaties from the girst Iraq War.

    Reply

  88. “The 10 hottest years in recorded human history have all occured in the last 14 years.” (i.e. since the human race was carefully, properly measuring the temperature and writing it down)

    This is the take home 1 liner from An Inconvenient Truth.

    Funny, in Europe hot seasons are confronted with years dating from the beginning of last century. THIS very same July in some areas have been reported to record same high temperatures as 1945.

    Revealing to hear that in the US careful and proper measure of temperature, and record it, just started few year ago.

    Reply

  89. perhaps we can stop treating Israel like a ‘trust fund baby’, and make them accountable to what they do with American Taxpayer’s money.

    Such as what? Perhaps Israel should do like the UN requests and just tolerate the atacks and killings. Show restraint when a terrorist blows up a bus. Did you ever notice that no matter how many times Israel gives into demands they still get attacked? That is because the terrorists stated goals are to wipe out all Israelis. But apparently that is OK to most people. If your nrxt door neighbor killed your dog, your cat, or your child, would you show restraint, or do something about it?

    Additionally we can stop supporting regimes who treat there people like shit. (Saudi Arabia)(China)

    I’m all for that.

    We can stop harassing leaders who are actually helping their own people. (Chavez)

    Yes, he’s wonderful. Dd you know that Hitler came up with the idea for the VW Bug? Maybe we should have just left him alone too.

    Reply

  90. To think, American soilders died protecting rights of people like you.

    “Did you know that children as young as 11 were being held at Abu Ghraib?

    Again, your point is?”

    What a fucking waste. Ick. I’m done.

    Dude I wish you joy in staying programmed and bending over.

    See ya. Wouldn’t wanna be ya. Really.

    Reply

  91. Seriously guys and gals … Why don’t some of you try to check a few facts before posting? It’s real easy, beacuse, y’know, this “intenet” thing. Which Gore WAS instrumental in creating. Just go see what Tim Berners Lee has to say about it. Or read the spirited defense of Gore’s claim by Vint Cerf (often referred to as the “father of the Internet”) in which he stated “that as a Senator and now as Vice President, Gore has made it a point to be as well-informed as possible on technology and issues that surround it”.

    Gore never even CLAIMED to have invented the internet. What he said was “During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.” In Congress.

    And what would it say of Jobs, who picked him and have chosen to include him in several of his keynotes, if Gore really was as clueless as some of you would have him?

    He might not be the kind of guy YOU would have a beer with, and you might not want to hear about this climate issue (after all, denial ain’t just a river in Egypt, as Twain observed), but to claim that Gore is stupid or uninformed on technical issues is just plain … uninformed.

    And stupid or uniformed compared to whom? GWB? Who didn’t even OWN a passport when he ran for president of the most powerful country in the world?

    But can’t we all just leave these political issues out of _Mac discussions_? And the responsibility for that is the one who starts it. Don’t be that person.

    Reply

  92. “Democrats are not liberals, they are at best ‘moderates’

    But Liberals ARE Democrats, and they have control. I think many everyday Americans that are Democrats aremoderate, but certainly not in politics. Ted Kennedy, Harry Reed, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Chris Dodd, etc. are very Liberal.

    “Goldberg’s book was a crock. Some reporters, maybe even most are liberals”

    A crock? Why so? The man is an admitted liberal who lost his cushy job for reporting this. Besidees, there is evidence of liberal bias in the news all the time. Simple wording of headlines, etc.

    For example:

    Newt Gingrich’s $400,000 book deal while he was in Congress caused Media outrage! Senator Hillary Rodham’s $8 million book deal elicited media praise

    The Courier Post, reported in 1992, the abortion related activities occurring on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade. On that day, 70,000 pro-lifers marched in Washington. 150 pro-lifers marched in Trenton. 25 pro-choicers, also in NJ, held a candlelight vigil. And the picture shown? Was it the 70,000 people in Washington? The 150 in Trenton? No. There was a huge picture of the 25 pro-choicers and a pretty extensive story.

    Headline on 7/19/97: N.J. unemployment rate up 5.5%
    This would be shocking if it were true, but the facts in the article show otherwise. In May 1997, the unemployment rate in New Jersey was 5.4% and in June it was 5.5% – a very small increase, certainly not an increase of 5.5% as the headline says. The good news in the article is that the rate is a decrease over the June 1996 rate of 6.3%

    During the first 10 days of the uproar about Dan Quayle’s National Guard service in 1988, the 4 networks aired 51 evening news stories solely on Quayle’s National Guard service – in addition to raising questions about “controversies” 158 times during prime time network coverage of the Republican convention. Compare those stats to the 4 networks airing only 13 stories in the first 10 days of the Clinton “draft-dodging” controversy.

    Reply

  93. “No, the hating on Al Gore is because he’s a moron that doesn’t really add anything of substance to Apple.” -RC

    By “Al Gore”, I assume you mean “George Bush”. And by “Apple”, you mean “The Office of President of the United States”.

    —————————————————-

    “Al Gore is a moron. I am watching him on British telly right now kissing up to the UK. It is embarrassing to watch. What must it be like to be him?” -OBVIOUS

    Richer and more powerful than you, obviously.

    —————————————————-

    “…’Course, I’m not a tight-ass Liberal…” -HERBERT WALKER

    Okay, so you’re a loose-ass Conservative—as are most Log Cabin Republicans.

    Reply

  94. At least the previous administration didn’t leave office with an exponentially increasing national debt, a rapidly accelerating difference in wealth between the middle class and the ultra rich, or an attack on another country for non-existent weapons of mass destruction while 2 other possibly more dangerous countries were fact producing or gearing up to produce such weapons. Whether or not global warming is caused by a natural cycle or the result of human activity, the US infrastructure continues to deteriorate, and the dependence on petroleum from possibly the most volatile region on earth remains unabated.

    History eventually will sort out much of the truth. The USA is now the wealthiest and most powerful country on earth, a boast once made by England, Spain, Rome, etc. Sic transit gloria mundi.

    Reply

  96. I am sure Al Gore is a substantial asset to the Apple Board. His vision of shaping the future of technology and environment is remarkable. He has been successful businessman with David Blood of Goldman Sachs and created an outstanding TV network, the Current TV. The CEO of Google is an amazing guy and Apple is the best computer company ever. Nobody makes better sutff than Steve Jobs.

    Reply

  98. I was a Dem until my 30’s. Then I’d seen enough to turn Repulbican.

    Watching Dem’s pass laws to spend more and more of my money on “the poor” which in most cases are the LAZY and the STUPID” and I”m stuck paying for them via bleeding heart legislation. I don’t mind paying for those honestly in need, but it’s out of control.

    The main thing I am sick of is women OR entire families BIRTHING themselves into POVERTY! I’ve seen it in my distant relatives and here at work. They whine they don’t have enough money, don’t get paid enough, and then spit out 1 or 2 more kids. Why do I have to pay for this idiocy?

    I”m female so it isn’t male predjudice against women having babies. How many times have we all seen the single mom with 4 kids and food stamps? Have what you can afford and stop expecting the rest of us to have 2 jobs to pay for your needs!

    I GAVE a co-worker my used car because he had 3 kids and claimed he was too financially strapped to afford one. The next year he had ANOTHER kid. And ANOTHER about a year after that! If these people can’t keep it in their pants, then keep their hand out of my pocket!

    Reply

  100. Since you answered my call for civility with nam,e calling, I have to ask…

    Is this what you wanted?

    Do these partisan one liners get anyone anywhere?

    This ain’t a sitaution comedy or a football game..

    Partisanship is just an excuse to delare war on half of your own country.

    I hope ya’ll are ahving fun ( I can tell you are) but this is not the sound of a healthy democracy.

    Reply

  101. If nothing else, liberal rants are funny to read. It’s amazing the amount of venom and hatred from these “enlightened, tolerant” people. I don’t know… I find it hard to believe that people are really this clueless about the reality of the world we live in – but alas, I guess that’s what being a liberal is all about… all they have is talking points and diatribes against Bush. It’s no fun debating a liberal since they are so damn unprepared to have an intelligent debate.
    “Global warming doesn’t exist.” “Yes it does! You just hate the environment!”
    “Marriage is between a man and women.” “No it isn’t! You just hate homosexuals.”
    “The solution to poverty is to not just keep throwing money at it.” “No it isn’t, you just hate the poor and love the rich.”

    And as for the person who said the Republicans all get “oil” money, do your research. The Democrats receive just as much from oil, special interests, etc. Don’t be a hypocrite. I don’t like it either, but BOTH parties are in bed with oil.

    Reply

  103. Alan Colmes was all over Pat Buchanan for wanting to restrict illegal aliens from pouring into our country. He kept asking Buchanan if he just wanted a white America, totally trying to bait him into something totally different from the point Buchanan was trying to make. Which is the people are hear ILLEGALLY! People should not be aloud to illegally enter the US PERIOD! If they can get here by legal means fine. But illegals should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. Especially with the threat from the fanatical NAZI MUSLIM TERRORISTS! WHY DON’T SUPPOSEDLY MAIN STREAM MUSLIMS EVER SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE TERRORISTS OR TRY TO STOP THEM? WHY? WHY? WHY? WILL ON ONE OF YOU ENLIGHTENED LIBS ANSWER THAT ONE WITH A REAL ANSWER FOR ONCE?

    The mayor of New Orleans is ranting on and on about rebuilding a CHOCOLATE New Orleans over and over. No one’s calling him a racist. What the f*ck is that nimrod talking about. How about we just rebuild New Orleans. Why the hell does it have to be CHOCOLATE????????????

    Reply

  104. Why do the libs always compare Gore to Bush? Why can´t we just compare Gore to Gore?
    The guy is a coat-tails guy.
    His daddy was a rich Senator (Al Gore, Senior, 18 years a US Senator from the state of Tennessee), Al jr. rode into politics on his daddy´s wealth, name and political clout.
    Riding the coat tails of rich Senator Daddy. (Before that Al Jr. had a job writing newspaper articles.)
    Gore was a nobody Senator from a nobody state until Bill Clinton tagged him to be the next VP.
    The ultimate coattails deal for Gore.
    The Clinton charisma rubbed off on the press to pump up Gore. Of course the press always has a thing for Dems.
    Clinton was cool, so Gore was kind a cool….for a stiff asa a board Frankenstein unclever character he is. Clinton had great ratings (despite his Monica swallowings), economy was still going great (fake stock market boom/bubble) and Al Gore still lost the election. He didn´t even carry his own state.
    Then he wanted to run again for President and that went no where.
    Now he is schleping his “Mr. Environment” personna around that is a laugh.
    Al Gore – the coat tail man.
    What has he done for Apple? Forget the politics, what has Gore done for Apple?

    Reply

  105. If I continue to come to your site & it is full of irrelevent partisan politics…

    I won’t come back.

    You shut down a dope discussion recently much faster than this one…

    So pull the plug.

    If I have to wade through left/right name calling to read about Macs, I will go elsewhere

    Reply

  107. “If nothing else, (fill in the blank)rants are funny to read. It’s amazing the amount of venom and hatred…”

    Doesn’t seem to be subtantial differences between liberal, conservative, etc rants to me. It’s just a question of whose ox is getting gored.

    Reply

  108. So Judge Bork, if a white mayor said he wanted to create a vailla New Orleans that wouldn’t be called racist and everyone wouldn’t be going insane over that comment. Why does Nagen get a pass???????????? Complete BULL SH*T!!!!

    Reply

  109. Art,

    Well, I guess you got me there! I see your point.

    Still, I don’t think Nagin was trying to be racist – he just naturally wants as many future voters locked up as he can. Not that “chocolate” people all vote the same… uh, whoops!

    Aw, I’d better just forget this thread.

    Reply

  110. Well, now we know we have solved the all of the American political problems. We have reached the point of all caps cuss words and multiple exclamation points…

    Everyone knows that this is the signal for the end all further discussion. That settles it right here on a Mac disscussion forum, imagine that.

    Call the networks, we’ve settled all of these issues right here! It was just the right combination of lame putdowns & juvenile comebacks, spiced up with the correct number of repeated punctuation marks…!!!!????!!!

    Thank God for the asterisk so that we have some level of propriety.

    I’m off to make money with my Mac, the rest of you can stay here & solve the world’s problems….!!!!????

    Reply

  111. Well, now we know we have solved the all of the American political problems. We have reached the point of all caps cuss words and multiple exclamation points…

    Everyone knows that this is the signal for the end all further discussion. That settles it right here on a Mac disscussion forum, imagine that.

    Call the networks, we’ve settled all of these issues right here! It was just the right combination of lame putdowns & juvenile comebacks, spiced up with the correct number of repeated punctuation marks…!!!!????!!!

    Thank God for the asterisk so that we have some level of propriety.

    I’m off to make money with my Mac, the rest of you can stay here & solve the world’s problems….!!!!????

    Reply

  115. “Did you know, a large number of prisoners at AbuGhraib were released being found innocent of what they were being held for?”

    And your point is what?

    The point is they are suspected enemy combatants. The key word here is “suspected” if you are unable to parse that out yourself.

    Reply

  118. However, the murderers and racists are the people that decide to fly planes into buildings, strap bombs to children, and declare that the zionists and infidels must be destroyed for no other reason than that they exist.

    This is an oversimplification – as bad as “they hate us for our freedom.”

    Reply

  119. It’s amazing the amount of venom and hatred from these “enlightened, tolerant” people.

    And any idiot who believe “A Inconvenient Truth” is a “documentary” and not a bunch of bullshit propaganda probably also thinks Michael Moore really does write non-fiction movies.

    AL GORE IS A “””FSCKEN IDIOT””” !!!!!!!!!

    Liberal = cry baby, liar, tax you to death, celebrity suck up, liar, dishonest, liar, loser!

    Gstank, Davida, HMMMMMer, etc = dirt ball, terrorist loving, aholes!

    Ah bad old fwierd rears his ugly ass! Liberal, commie, terrorist lover!

    Reply

  120. 1.

    Pretty much a revealing news…:

    The reference was to the average YEARLY temperature, not one particular daily temperature.

    The reason for the recorded history qualifier was to eliminate periods in which humans weren’t having much of an effect, i.e. prior to the industrial revolution etc.

    May I suggest that you consider the comment on its merit, and avoid speculating about the author’s citizenship?

    2.

    The ‘political’ commentators:

    If you are a committed partisan of one particular side, why even speak? Everything the other side says is, to you, obviously wrong, and the evidence be dammed.

    And, don’t you realize that slurs and slander is a bad thing?

    Free speech does grant you the right to be vulgar, and say obviously false/unsubstantiated, foolish, negative, slanderous (to a point) things. Are you sure you want to do this? Exactly what value is this providing?

    The only voices I, personally, find interesting are independent voices, people who will listen to the facts, try and understand them, and, where there are disagreements about interpretation, listen to both sides and make reasoned, thoughtful conclusions.

    In other words, the independent voice and the open mind who has sufficient emotional self control to not be vulgar, and has sufficient respect for others to not disparage different views.

    3. Yes, it was disappointing that Gore included some political shots in his movie; with me, he lost points when he did that.

    But, still, he had some good points, in my view, and points that merit thoughtful consideration.

    Y’all really should see this movie and do some research. Be careful about mainstream press – the press is, currently, being vigorously manipulated, by those with a vested interest in the status quo…

    A really good quote from the movie:

    “it is really difficult to convince somebody of something when their job depends on not understanding”.

    Case in point: the tobacco executives testifying, on camera, to congress that tobacco wasn’t harmful nor addictive, or something to that effect.

    Do you honestly think they could have been convinced that tobacco was bad? And, given their obvious conflict of interest, is it really a good idea to give much weight to their opinion?

    And, today, oil and power companies opinions WRT carbon dioxide emissions?

    Something to think about?

    Reply

  121. Watching Dem’s pass laws to spend more and more of my money on “the poor” which in most cases are the LAZY and the STUPID” and I”m stuck paying for them via bleeding heart legislation. I don’t mind paying for those honestly in need, but it’s out of control.

    Funny, cuz it’s the Dems who are trying to ameliorate this situation with comprehensive sex education, family planning and reasonable abortion law while the Repubs (generally) push for abstinence only education (which has proven itself useless in fighting unwanted pregnancies) and are anti-abortion.

    Reply

  123. Could somebody offer a solution to the terrorist problem? That’s what I would like to hear. If we are doing everything wrong, what should we do? Or what should we have done.

    We’re not doing everything wrong. The war to dislodge the Taleban was a good start. The rest should be handled through law enforcement. All of the significant victories in the fight against terrorism have been through police activity. It also wouldn’t end up killing tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of innocents.

    Iraq was obviously foolish and counterproductive. SH was contained, the modified sanctions were working, relieved most of the deleterious effects on the civilian population, and were praised by the international community. If Bush had stuck with focusing on Afghanistan and the modified sanctions on Iraq, his first term would have been praiseworthy.

    We need to disengage from Israel. Not completely, of course. But a good first step would be to stop selling them arms and giving them billions of dollars every year.

    Believe it or not, terrorists can be negotiated with. Remember the IRA? The PLO? The best way to perpetuate terrorist activity is with an intransigent policy of zero communication and extreme prejudice.

    If I weren’t at work and talking off the top of my head, I could probably list a bit more.

    Reply

  124. Perhaps Israel should do like the UN requests and just tolerate the atacks and killings. Show restraint when a terrorist blows up a bus.

    Look: I know this is hard, but yes. There is nothing easy about the Israel situation. It’s a legacy clusterfuck from the colonial days and it’s not going to get better with vendetta. Diplomacy is hard work. Harder than war. It takes longer. You get screwed over repeatedly. Occasionally innocents get killed. But going apeshit doesn’t help anyone, and, in fact, makes things much worse.

    Reply

  126. Dems want all the poor to get pregant often, become addicted to food stamps and public housing and then vote the Dems back in.

    I look forward to when you publish your study demonstrating the validity of these hypotheses, Kristen. Feel free to email a PDF of it directly to me. No PowerPoint presentations, please.

    Reply

  127. Ray Lane wrote: “Could somebody offer a solution to the terrorist problem?”

    Yep, that’s easy.

    Step 1) Invade Afghanistan and root out the Taliban with the support of nearly the entire world
    Step 2) Complete the job there, make sure we do it right with patience
    Step 3) Use the unprecedented world support to establish unprecedented intelligence communication
    Step 4) Use our assets (say half of what we spent in Iraq) to secure our borders, etc.
    Step 5) Focus on reforming our communication between the FBI & CIA

    That’s it! Pretty simple right? It’s amazing these buffoons in charge f#cked it all up. They no nothing of how to wage a *real* war.

    MW: defense! No shit.

    Reply

  129. This gets tiring… bringinp up Hitler to disparage Chávez, that was stretching things abit wouldn’t you say? check this http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm a site describing how the Bush Crime Family started its fortunes.. making money from the Third Reich. And those senators you listed are moderates, they are not challenging the status quo in any significant way.. besides John Kerry is on of those Skull and Bonesman freaks, like his cousins the Bushes. You could’ve at least listed a real Liberal.. i.e., Russ Feingold, or the hated and assassinated by the Bush Clan, Paul Wellstone. Did you know that Harry Reid is pro-life, and very pro death penalty, his liberalism gives me the warm fuzzies.

    It is clear that the right wingers on this site attack people with childish comments, not ideas/facts with constructive criticism, very telling.

    Reply

  130. What as Al the Gore done for Apple????
    Not one person has an answer.

    Oh, gee, I don’t know. Could it be because no one here sits on Apple’s BoD? I also strongly suspect that BoD members are bound to confidentiality regarding their activities. And no one here know Al intimately enough to get beyond the first two points.

    I can speculate, though: He has sat in on board meetings, and voted on matters regarding the company’s direction. Is that good enough for you? If you like the direction Apple has taken since Jobs’ return, then you should appreciate the fact that the board, which Al is a part, has done a fine job.

    Reply

  131. In reality, isn’t Gore’s responsibility – as a non-exec independent director – to maintain an oversight on behalf of the shareholders, which is the equivalent of the guy who used to whisper “Remember, thou art mortal” in the ear of victorious generals returning to Rome.

    On that basis, he – along with the other independents – may be doing something right: Apple’s share price was a stock-adjusted $8 when he joined the board, it’s now $67 – and that’s despite the fact that the company is in the midst of several class action lawsuits based on alleged malfeasance that occurred before Gore’s appointment and SPJ appears to have a) mellowed enough to allow others to share the limelight and b) appears to have lost his previously legendary capacity to self-destruct through his well-known control freakery and explosive temper.

    Nobody’s saying that Gore has built Apple’s current success; however, he and the other independents have a role to play in reining in the executive board’s ‘visionary” (i.e. risky) tendencies.

    Also, criticising Gore for being a second-generation “coat tails” politician and not extending the same logic to the Bush family (now on the third generation – Prescott Bush/GHW Bush/GW Bush – JE Bush) seems a little inconsistent. (Can I call someone inconsistent, without being accused of indulging in ad hominem attacks? I don’t want to offend any thin-skinned Republicans.).

    Reply

  132. “Since you answered my call for civility with nam,e calling, I have to ask…
    Is this what you wanted? “

    What names did I call anyone?

    “Partisanship is just an excuse to delare war on half of your own country. “

    Not true, in war people kill each other….has anyone here died since reading these posts?

    “I hope ya’ll are ahving fun ( I can tell you are) but this is not the sound of a healthy democracy.”

    Sure it is. If this wasn’t a healthy democracy we wouldn’t be allowed to argue our points. Saddam Hussein got 98% of the vote in his last ‘election’, were they a healthy democracy?

    Reply

  133. However, the murderers and racists are the people that decide to fly planes into buildings, strap bombs to children, and declare that the zionists and infidels must be destroyed for no other reason than that they exist.

    This is an oversimplification – as bad as “they hate us for our freedom.”

    So, it’s an ‘oversimplification” to call terrorists that flew planes into our buildings murderers, but calling our president a murderer is fine…oh, OK

    Reply

  134. “Look: I know this is hard, but yes. There is nothing easy about the Israel situation. It’s a legacy clusterfuck from the colonial days and it’s not going to get better with vendetta. Diplomacy is hard work. Harder than war. It takes longer. You get screwed over repeatedly. Occasionally innocents get killed. But going apeshit doesn’t help anyone, and, in fact, makes things much worse.”

    Unfortunately, I disagree. Diplomacy does not work when the goal of the other side is to see you dead. Diplomacy did not work with Hitler, defeating him did. Diplomacy did not make America free from Britain, fighting them did. Diplomacy did not stop the Hamas from attacking Israel. Arafat demanded land for peace, Israel gave them land, yet the attacks continued. This is because you cannot reason with somebody who’s only goal is to kill you. Peace comes after military victory, it’s sad, but it’s true.

    As Golda Meir once said, there won’t be peace until the terrorists love their children more than they love killing the Jew.

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  135. I don’t really give a crap about Israel/Palastine/Lebanon, etc. They have their problems, and need to sort them out, and it’s not really something I think US taxpayers should be involved in.

    The main thing that is important to me, as a democrat, is that we wage this “war on terrorism” as smartly and successfully as we can. And it really upsets me how unbelievably retarded it has been handled thus far. These guys couldn’t fight their way out of a cardboard box. It’s so sad. We’ve played right into the hands of our enemies with our decision to invade Iraq. It’s pathetic, and will not end well.

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  136. And those senators you listed are moderates, they are not challenging the status quo in any significant way.

    so you honestly think John Kerry and Ted Kennedy aren’t Liberals?

    Besides John Kerry is on of those Skull and Bonesman freaks, like his cousins the Bushes.

    What does that have to do with whether he’s a liberal?

    You could’ve at least listed a real Liberal.. i.e., Russ Feingold,

    Ok, I’ll list him, and Diane Feinstein, and Dennis Kucinich, and others. Unfortunately, most people wouldn’t know who they are. Not everyone is into politics.

    or the hated and assassinated by the Bush Clan, Paul Wellstone.

    Uh, right….and did you know that Kennedy was actually killed by Beldar Conehead, and that Elvis is actually alive and hiding in Brazil.

    Did you know that Harry Reid is pro-life, and very pro death penalty, his liberalism gives me the warm fuzzies.

    He is also one of the most partisan liberals in congress. He brags about “killing the patriot act”.

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  137. effward: “And you wonder why people compare Gore to Bush? Do you know anything about the Bushes and GW’s past? Cuz it’s kinda relevant.”

    Why? What does Gore on the Apple board of directors have to do with George Bush? Is Bush on the Apple board of directors, too? And its okay that Al rode the coattails of his Daddy, but its not okay for Bush?

    Hell, all the Kennedy´s rode on the coat tails of their rich, corrupt Daddy. But what does that have to do with Al Gore and Apple? Gore is a loser. (If the Dems would have picked a better candidate Bush would not have won.)
    And I am a Democrat. I think of 10-plus Democrats better qualified than Gore to run for President.
    Gore is a carnival act.

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  138. Effwerd,

    You are so off your rocker it’s scary. You think that fanatical muslims can be negotiated with??????? Are you freaking kidding???? Please do me a favor and go try and negotiate with them. You’ll be headless in a nanosecond you moron. Terrorists only understand force. We need to take out Iran next. It has to be done. You’ll find out the hard way if it doesn’t happen you jack ass!

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  139. Gspank,

    You think Israel/Palastine/Lebanon, etc are not connected to everything that’s going on? You are a complete simpleton. Figure it out liberal neophites, it’s the middle east muslims against the rest of the world. Not necessarily the general population but far too many of them in every middle east country actually enjoy the terrorists hitting the west and support them. Fanatical muslims and schools need to be abolished yesterday. We are at a life and death war with this part of the world. Who in the west besides a muslim wants to live under their lovely set of rules. No women’s rights, beatings, beheadings, torture, no freedom of anything. You libs are SICKENING!!!!!!!

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  140. Anyone, regardless of political affliation, who likes what the Bush regime is doing is ripe for fascism, you are being played, and are getting the government you deserve. Stolen elections, political assassinations, needless wars, and deep corruption will become even more commonplace. The US is sadly full of brain/washed/dead zombies, and the world is lauging at you. FEAR is being used to keep you inline and stupid. We need the government to save us from the ‘baddies’, it’s too bad you don’t realize that the ‘baddies’ are the government. Wake up peeps, or to quote GWB..”That Goddam piece of paper”, a.k.a. the US Constitution will merely be a museum piece.

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  141. Ah Jeff, there you go putting words into my mouth. But that’s usually what happens here.

    What I found absolutely hilarious is that you call me a simpleton, and in the next breath say “it’s the middle east muslims against the rest of the world”

    Haheheahahehehah. Good one, Jeff. You can’t really overly simplify it any more than that. What do you know about the average Muslim in the Middle East, Jeff? Do you even know ONE personally? I doubt it. But you are probably used to casting armchair judgements based on your daily intake of Fox News. It feels good to pass judgement on others, doesn’t it?

    So, I make you sick, huh? Wow, you are thin skinned aren’t you. I wouldn’t recommend going into a war zone there, Jeff. My friend who is fighting in Iraq as we speak has told me things that are truly sickening. You wouldn’t last a second over there.

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  142. It’s pretty funny the way many people think here. They say “Fanatical Muslims” can’t be negotiated with, and then include most mainstream Muslims in the “Fanatical Muslim” grouping. It must make these people feel good somehow, to try and cover up there own agenda’s with all this bullshit. I would guess most of these people are religious Christians. So many Christians in this country want to kill Muslims. It’s a classic tale that’s been going on for centuries. None of these Christians want to admit it, of course, but it’s true. And of course it’s so easy to cast a vote for the death of innocents based on faith when your doing it from your living room couch.

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  144. yo enlish3d,

    You are asking exactly what Al has done on Apple’s board of directors?

    First of all… if you can even name another person on the board, do you ask of that person what they have done for Apple? Or do you just shut the fuck up and trust Apple to deal with what the board does or does not do for the company.

    Jesus fucking h christ on a popcicle stick. Why are people so pissed that *gasp* a Democrat is on the board at Apple, and want his contributions publicized and his presence justified, but they don’t ask word one about anybody else? Just goes to show that those who ask are merely partisan bigots.

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  145. Gstank,

    I have many friends and relatives fighting in Iraq you jack ass. Yeah war is a nightmare but it’s one that has to be fought. They are extremely annoyed at aholes like you and davida that undermine their missions and only look for the negative. There are so many more positive things happening that the liberal media only reports and jack asses like you believe hook, line, and sinker. davida you are such a disgusting human being words can’t describe it.

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  146. No women’s rights Rather like the erosion of Roe vs. Wade that’s happening on a state-by-state basis, and which the Religious Right will try and get federally mandated if they continue to be electorally successful.

    beatings, beheadings Which is different to state-sanctioned execution (or, as sane people call it, revenge) in what way precisely. 362 people have been “judicially executed” in the USA since GWB came to power as President and well over 110 were executed during his terms as Governor of Texas.

    By the way, when you drop a bomb on someone, it’s just the same as beheading them: they still die painfully. As tens of thousands of Iraqis could tell you. If they were still breathing. Our “justice” is just as brutal as theirs – it’s just we use technology to emotionally remove ourselves from the process.

    torture Two words: Abu Ghraib; anybody who thinks the practises there weren’t sanctioned and commissioned by the Executive branch is an idiot. And any moral superiority that the US could claim has been catastrophically eroded.

    no freedom of anything Yep, cause warrantless wiretaps is a great example of having freedom. Or having your medical records scrutinised by the security agencies. We have the freedom to go to work and the obligation to pay taxes. Other than that, our “freedoms” are pretty much being eroded day by day in the name of state security.

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  147. bodidly:

    I never thought that asking questions was a sign of bigotry, that searching for the truth was an act of intolerance, or that objective investigation was a symptom of prejudice. It may be that some people, fearful or embarrassed by the facts, are reluctant to have them revealed which naturally leads to speculation, rumor mongering, and criticism.

    Al Gore could end this public discourse, if he wanted to. I have not heard Al Gore publicly state that he did not receive financial gain from the stock options fiasco, did not know about the stock options irregularities before they were made public, was not aware of the harsh labor conditions in China, and has worked tirelessly to change the practices of Apple that make them a pariah in the eyes of Greenpeace. It seems obvious that Apple’s recent embarrassments taint Al Gore’s public image as an environmentally sensitive politician and zealous advocate for fairness, kindness, and respect for the common citizen. Certainly, if Al Gore is not guilty of the afore mentioned sins, it does beg the question, “Why is Al Gore so reluctant to defend his honor, his reputation, and his carefully crafted image?”

    Left-leaning maroons tend to see right-wing conspiracies and subterfuge everywhere, and demand full and complete investigation whenever guilt or misconduct is suspected of your political opponents. However, when one of your own is suspected of illegal, immoral, or unethical behavior the left solidly defends their “golden boy”. As is obvious from numerous posts here at MDN, the level of discomfort expressed by the left is real. As usual, the response of the left is not to resolve the issue by presenting exculpatory evidence, but rather to defame and smear the questioner and revisit the sins of their opponent (which I suppose is a unique way of saying, “See, we are less corrupt, less villainous, and less culpable than other people). This self-serving hypocrisy is what is destroying the republic, especially since the left claims that they hold undying fidelity to truthfulness, openness, and egalitarianism.

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  148. “Yeah war is a nightmare but it’s one that has to be fought.” The Iraq War? Are you sure it was necessary in the first place? I recall that it was launched because of Iraq’s “weapons of mass destruction” – weapons that did not exist. The raison d’être for the war was falacious. At the center of the administration’s case for war was a classified National Intelligence Estimate that found evidence of an Iraqi weapons of mass destruction program. Paul Pillar, one of the report’s principal authors, now admits that the NIE was written in a highly politicized environment in which the decision to go to war had ALREADY been made.

    From the Japan Times:
    “…(The Iraq war may) likely multiply terrorists by spawning a new generation of battle-hardened jihadists. The occupation of Iraq played into the hands of US enemies ideologically, tactically and strategically. It incited a deep hatred of US foreign policy around the world in general and among Muslims in particular.

    “Al-Qaida and its fundamentalist fellow-travelers were on the run after 9/11. Iraq fragmented U.S. military and political efforts, ensnared it in a military and diplomatic quagmire, regained sympathy to al-Qaida’s cause and fresh recruits to their ranks, reinvigorated their sense of mission clarity, and turned a strategic setback into a fresh opportunity. There was no al-Qaida in Iraq before the arrival of Western troops. It became a terrorist swamp because of the war…”

    Many of the posts here are simply strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks.
    Anyone care to compare and contrast Al Gore and Dick Cheney?

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  149. Ch.Blackthorne:

    Thank you for proving my point that the left, when it cannot claim innocence, purity, and irreproachability, starts the moral superiority game by suggesting that they have committed fewer and less egregious sins as their opponent. I suppose that we should all now rejoice that Al Gore is less corrupt, less villainous, and less hypocritical than other people, according to the definition of the left. Well, maybe Al Gore is actually more hypocritical than other people, my bad.

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  151. “Thank you for proving my point that the left, when it cannot claim innocence, purity, and irreproachability, starts the moral superiority game by suggesting that they have committed fewer and less egregious sins as their opponent..”

    NO CLAIMS WERE MADE!!! It’s only your perceptions. Everything I quoted is from published sources that anyone can read. Can you present a cogent argument without an ad hominem attack? Your own comments establish not only beyond a resaonable but beyond all possible doubt that you are no different from those you attack.

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  152. Ch. Blackthorne, you did write, “Anyone care to compare and contrast Al Gore and Dick Cheney?”

    Go ahead, you first. Begin with an exhaustive survey and analysis of the moral and ethical character of these two. Or where you suggesting we only examine and differentiate their taste in clothing?

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  153. Ch. Blackthorne:

    I never claimed that Dick Cheney was a paragon of virtue. However, in spite of the numerous ethical flaws and intellectual shortcomings of Al Gore, you still have the attitude that Gore is above reproach. According to you, any criticism or bad press related to Al Gore is characterized as an ad hominem attack regardless of the veracity or accuracy of the reports.

    I suppose, according your twisted logic, any examination, evaluation, negative commentary, disapproval of Gore is sacrilegious, something committed by right-wing infidels. Well, you may deify Al Gore in your own mind and grant him the status of a sinless divine being, but I won’t be worshipping at Al Gore’s Shrine of Sanctimonious Hypocrites.

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  154. My point is that it’s only a question of whose ox is getting gored (pardon the pun).

    All I have read here about Gore has been ad hominem attacks, and I would like someone to produce real evidence about what makes Gore deserving criticism -other than his party affiliation which seems to reason enough for some – so that I can read and draw my own conclusions. I have no preconceptions about Gore.

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  157. Oh, my! Ch. Blackthorne is getting all pseudo-psychological with his accusations of “projection”.

    Ch. Blackthorne:

    I suppose that if you can make an objective and unprejudiced conclusion without a face-to-face encounter and proper analysis, then you are capable of believing any at all without any empirical evidence and disregarding factual evidence contrary to your predetermined biases.

    “And you’re not?” Is this a careless admission that you really are “incredibly opinionated and dogmatic”? If you weren’t so serious, you would actually be funny.

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  158. That’s funny, Jeff, because my friends fighting in Iraq really like me, and completely respect that I have a backbone and stand up for my beliefs.

    By the way, what do your friends fighting over there think of how it’s all progressed? How do they describe the current state of Iraq? Are they optimistic about the future there? Just curious.

    And if you honestly think the opinions of a few liberals have any impact on how Iraq is being handled then you are living in the clouds. This administration has handled Iraq EXACTLY how it wanted to. The voices of dissent were TOTALLY ignored. Anyone who was and is behind Bush and Co. can take full responsibility (for once) for the mess in Iraq. You all got exactly what you bargained for, and right now the terrorists are loving it. Talk about making someone sick. You bloodthirsty fools did exactly what the terrorists hoped you would. Anyone who supported the Iraq war inadvertently supported the terrorist agenda.

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  161. Diplomacy does not work when the goal of the other side is to see you dead.

    This is an oversimplification and amounts to dehumanizing the enemy. The “other side” is made of humans. Humans can be reasoned with. Life is not like the movies. Obviously there are psychotics and occasionally the psychotics rise to power. For the most part, though, even psychotics can be dealt with as long as the balance of power favors the sane. Which brings me to your next point…

    Diplomacy did not work with Hitler, defeating him did.

    Psychotics with a war machines require different tactics. War may be inevitable in these circumstances due to balance of power issues but using this tactic with every case is naive and stupid. The whole problem with asymetrical situations like Israel v Hamas and Hezbollah is that the obviously stronger power feels that all military situations much be treated equally, which is misguided.

    Diplomacy did not make America free from Britain, fighting them did.

    Yes, I can see how political, diplomatic, and military theory from more than 200 years ago is so relevant to today.

    Diplomacy did not stop the Hamas from attacking Israel.

    The point is magnitude of the offense relative to magnitude of reaction. Israel can and should take a firm stance against the violence perpetrated against them, and pursue redress through legal and diplomatic means. But when it comes to aggressive invasion against a pitiful opponent as a means to securing a peace more conceptual than real, the result is sinking lower than your opponent. If that’s what you want out of society, fine, but I have no qualms about advocating a more enlightened and rational approach.

    Israel just bombed the hell out of Lebanon. Do you think this will solve the problem with Hezbollah? Do you think this will give them cause to pursue them again in the future? If both solutions fail to resolve the problems that cause the violence, the tactics are reexamined and altered to accommodate our current understanding of the situation. Adapt to win, that’s the new mantra from the neocons, right? Well, the same goes for diplomacy. If diplomacy fails to resolve the underlying issues that create the violence, diplomacy must adapt. Again, the difference is in the number of innocents killed, infrastructure destroyed, and ordnance deployed.

    Arafat demanded land for peace, Israel gave them land, yet the attacks continued.

    This was because Arafat was a fool who knew nothing of diplomacy or statesmanship. The Palestinians’ biggest mistake was ever thinking that he would advance their cause at all. All progress between Israel and Palestine while he was alive happened despite him and, except for his most strident supporters, everyone else was glad when he died.

    Nonetheless, he represents exactly the challenges that I described. You will have setbacks. Ask the British. Sometimes an asshole sneaks into the process. And maybe you have to wait for him to die.

    This is not to say that there is no military action involved in diplomacy. But the scale of it must be appropriate to the circumstances. The insurgent/terrorist tact of integrating into the civilian populace is an effective tactic for both defense and recruitment. The last thing a stronger power should do is fall right into that trap.

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  162. You think that fanatical muslims can be negotiated with???????

    Yes. Even if you used one more question mark, the answer would still be yes.

    Please do me a favor and go try and negotiate with them. You’ll be headless in a nanosecond you moron.

    Are you suggesting I walk into, say, an Iraqi insurgent stronghold and say, “I come in peace,” and see how that works out? Cuz that’s stupid. Diplomacy does not mean acting with blind faith (or rampant stupidity). In fact, it’s the exact opposite.

    Terrorists only understand force. We need to take out Iran next. It has to be done. You’ll find out the hard way if it doesn’t happen you jack ass!

    So are you a terrorist? Cuz it sounds like the only thing you understand is force.

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  163. “A second American Civil War could be a distinct possibility if the Neo-Cons fix another election.”

    Gpstank, efwierd, daviduh,

    I hope you all wind up in the middle of the next terrorist attack and we’ll see how understanding you aholes are then. I was in NYC close to the World Trade Center. You libs are absolutely effing disgusting people. The middle east has to be taken to it’s knees now before they get nukes and more powerfull. I hate you 3.

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  164. Well Antoine, it appears as though need something to hate. Liberals were just as affected by 9-11 as you were, pal. You don’t own that just because you feel the desire for blind revenge stronger than other people. And it is blind, Antoine, and foolish. Do you honestly think that by making innocent people suffer your wounds will be healed?

    The ironic thing is that it’s the “liberals” who can save America from another hit, because liberals would wage this war with intelligence and aggression. Don’t forget Franklin D. Roosevelt was a democrat, and liberal.

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  167. Al Gore is a moron, leading a pack of morons over a cliff with his global warming stick. Having Al “Sore Loser” Gore on the Apple board is a disgrace. Makes me seriously think about buying a Dell with Windows.

    With his global warming scare, Al Gore could do more damage to the U.S. economy than any other activity (oil prices, middle east wars, you name it).

    It is almost certain that the main cause of Earth’s warming and cooling over the ages is due to fluctations in the Sun’s total energy output. Chick Little’s like Al Gore want to believe that Man’s production of CO2 is the reason the Earth is warming a few degrees. The latest science shows that CO2 has contributed less than 1/4th of the apparent temperatue increase in the last century. (It can be argued that the Earth is only now recovering from the mini-ice age of the middle ages.)

    Those who rail against CO2 (and energy sources such as fossil fuels) remind me of the nuclear energy scare mongers. These scare mongers are to be blamed for our dependence on fossil fuels to produce electricity – they can blames themselves for all of the CO2 production these days!

    Al Gore is the chief idiot among these morons. Having him on the Apple board is a complete and utter disgrace. Steve Jobs screwed the pooch on this one…

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  171. Funny, Randy, I read it and agree with it totally. Amusing how you must have thought that it would somehow clash with my ideals. I would guess that’s because your brain has been scrambled by Fox News and other outlets into forming some sort of deranged notion as to what a “liberal” is.

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  172. “…because liberals would wage this war with intelligence and aggression.”

    G-Spank:

    Maybe you have a few examples of how well the Clinton-Gore administration handled terrorism; because I don’t remember which victories over terrorism this administration could claim credit. I seem to recall that Bill was more interested in getting his knob polished by Monica in the Oval Office than ordering retaliatory strikes for terrorist attacks on U.S. interests. In fact, it has been hypothesized, that Clinton’s paltry and limited attempts to inflict pain and suffering on terrorists and their supporters actually encouraged the terrorists to plan more devastating strikes. So, rather than acting quickly and decisively, Clinton actually assisted the terrorists by making U.S, appear weak and unwilling to fight.

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  173. Interesting, the only liberal that G-Spank can identify with to fight terrorism has been dead and buried over fifty years. Well, G-Spank, who is your nominee for the presidency in 2008? Hopefully, someone who isn’t as cold and moldy as FDR.

    During FDR’s administration, over 35 million civilians died or were injured directly or indirectly by military and naval conflcit. Do you expect me to believe that any liberal today would authorize military and naval actions that would permit the death of 35 million civilians for the sake of total victory? If you know of anyone, please tell us.

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  175. you libs love to slam Fox News every chance you possibly can. Fox is one of the only news outlets that shows both sides of the story. All main stream media is so completely left wing it’s scary (CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, MSNBC, NYT, Washington Post, etc., etc., etc.). And you psycho libs love to slam the one main stream source that gives a real “fair and balanced” take on the news. Liberal-Psycho-Terrorist Loving-Liars are what you freaks are. Thank god for Bush.

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  177. “Fox is one of the only news outlets that shows both sides of the story.”

    Holy shit that might have been the best laugh of the day for me. Good one.

    MacZealot, did 9-11 happen on Clinton’s watch? No, it didn’t. I’d say that’s a big one right there. Listen, terrorists have been wanting to bomb this country for some time now, mainly because of our fingers in the Middle East pie, which I think has been necessary by the way. As for who stirred the hornets nest, though, it can be argued that Republicans with their oil agenda’s would be the guys with the stick, and to that end they would be the most responsible for 9-11. But really, laying blame can be argued with both sides having points till the cows come home. I’m a big enough guy to not blame Bush for 9-11. The blame you want to lay on Clinton is even less tangible. Since we both want what’s best for this country, let’s focus on what’s being done since 9-11 to make these terrorists an inconsequential aspect of this world.

    Our response to 9-11 has been absolutely terrible. About the only thing the Neo-Cons did right was invade Afghanistan, but unfortunately they diverted their attention from that to the point of even making the one thing they did correct a failure. Their response has been a disgrace for the many reasons I’ve already pointed out. I could cut and paste if you want.

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  180. The liberals of 40 years ago and earlier were a lot different then you sniveling little gstank, daviduh, effwierd freaks. Gstank-what news source do you think is “fair and balanced”? I can only imagine your news source. Fox News rocks. ABC NY talk radio rocks. Air America Commie blows chunks.

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  181. G-Spank:

    Your are right! If Bill Clinton had acted like FDR and conscripted you to fight overseas we would all now be sipping tea on our front porches and discussing the finer points of gardening. In fact, if Clinton was like Harry S. Truman, he would have nuked Iraq and Iran into the Stone Age. Yeah, back in the day, we had some tough Democrats. See what you’ve done, you made me feel nostalgic for the good ol’ days when Democrats actually had balls.

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  183. Maczealot…

    Whereas you make me nostalgic for an era when Republicans had brains.

    Which is probably the key difference between the two sides: the usage of intelligent caution – the Democrat position – as opposed to the use of reckless courage by proxy.

    It’s easy to have ‘balls’ when you’re sending someone else’s sons and daughters to fight on your behalf in a war based on a litany of falsehoods and mis/disinformation. It’s actually more difficult to sit on your hands, examine the intelligence and develop a proportionate response.

    Be aware that the invasion of Iraq has left Afghanistan on the verge of becoming a failed ‘narco-state’ with opium production up by over 150% in Helmand province (the district where US forces were recently supplemented by UK personnel) and up 62% in the country overall. The money generated by opium production – itself a necessity in a country where nothing much grows and with precious little economic development – is being used to finance insurgency with the potential for a “tribute” also being paid to Al Qua’ida.

    Concentrating – for a concerted period – on central Asia should have been the primary focus of the US response to 9/11. North Africa has more than enough hard-ass intelligence services as does Islamic South-East Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.).

    Afghanistan, by contrast, has been a graveyard for every military force since Alexander The Great – it’s rocky, hostile country that is impossible to sanitise without concentrated, intensive, fully-focussed commitment. But, instead of delivering that commitment, this administration took its eye off the ball and elected to engage in a war that would result in an “extensive” (as the antonym of “intensive”) deployment of US troops.

    The result has been disastrous: Afghanistan has not been stabilised and is in danger of collapse whilst Karzai is not so much the President of the country as the Mayor of Kabul. In addition, Iraq is barely stable and occasionally appears to teeter on the edge of civil war as over 45,000 civilians have been killed since the 1st January 2003 (not to mention the 2600 US service deaths and 20,000+ casualties).

    So the legacy of this administration at this time looks like it will be a failed opportunity to create a stable Afghanistan and an expensive (in term of blood and money) and unnecessary war in Iraq.

    Please note I did not say unwarranted; Saddam was a murderous psychopath and any long-term foreign policy would have been to encourage his removal or the removal of whichever of his sons would have succeeded him had he died. However, part of being an intelligent leader is choosing not just where to fight your battles, but also when to fight them: Saddam was confined politically, militarily and economically, he was going nowhere – in short, it was a fight that could have (indeed, should have) waited for another day.

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  184. Democrat Presidents Kennedy and Johnson got us into the Viet Nam War mess and never did the job right resulting in a defeat for the U.S.

    Democrat President Kennedy bungled, wimped out on the Bay of Pigs fiasco and failed to get rid of Castro.

    Democrat President Carter bungled, wimped out on the Iran hostage situation and showed to the Muslim world that the U.S. could be weak if it had a weak President. (Jimmy Carter should rank in the bottom 4 of U.S. Presidents.)

    Democrat President Clinton had several opportunities to rid the world of Bin Laden and did not take them because of his Monica-related weaknesses.

    So, yeah, there have been lots of Democrat Presidents that screwed things up for America.

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  185. What G-Spank (and Jimbo von Muhhamed and others) doesn´t realize or understand is that the radical Muslims are not against George Bush per se, they are against everyone that is not a member of their religion.
    If you are not believer in the Islamic religion, you are an infidel, you are a dog, you are to be killed.
    G-spank thinks that once George Bush is not re-elected (tip to G-Spank he can´t be re-elected) that the Muslim war on the western (Christian, Jewish) world will go away. That the Muslims are mad at George Bush (cause Al Gore should have been President) and that if the western world would just convince the Muslims that lots of liberal Democrats hate George Bush, too, the Muslim war machine won´t include liberal democrats in their death and destruction terrorist threats and actions.
    G-Spank – the Muslim war machine would just as soon kill you as look at you…unless you are a Muslim.
    The third World War started a while back and one must choose a side – are you for the Muslims destroying the western world so that they impose their form of religious dictatorila Muslim mind control (think Talibahn, think Ayatollah in Iran) or are you for freedom of thought, creatvity and will of the people?

    G-Spank – The Muslims get a chuckle out of your hate for the President of the United States, it is just fuel for their war machine.
    I imagine if you would have been around during WWII and FDR that you would be espousing the greatness of Hitler and how FDR was slaughtering millions of innocent civilians.
    Choose your side G-Spank. Muslim hate or western Democracy (with all its imperfections) and freedom of expression and thought (I dare you to go on a Muslim web site and say negative things about their rulers….don´t leave your name and address. Ka-boom!).

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  186. Mondale:

    Let’s analyze your military strategy. Hmm, it seems that wherever your avowed enemy is located that your goal is to… run away… not attack… hide behind a skirt. Ya know, sometimes your enemies just don’t want to cooperate and fight on your terms. I know that this seems difficult for you to understand, but it’s true and absolutely predictable.

    Personally, I think that our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan have not achieved desired objectives (stable democratic governments), but since I don’t have the ear of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or access to specific military and political information what does my opinion matter anyhow?

    The $54,000 question is. “What to do now?” Apparently, the first response from people like you is “Don’t invade Afghanistan or Iraq.” Since we can’t employ Apple’s Time Machine and reverse history, I suppose that your ludicrous strategy is impossible to implement. Since we are in Afghanistan and Iraq, what do you think we should do now? Here are your three options: Stay the course and hope for the best, amp up the war and hope for the best, or run away and hope for the best. Which is your decision?

    I know what G-Spank would say, “Nuke the bastards like Harry S, Truman then send me and Mondale in to mop up the remaining resistance like FDR would have done.”

    Randy Deems:

    Thanks for pointing out that it was the Democrats who were on watch during the Viet Nam War. But the Democrats were also on watch prior to and during World War I (i.e. Woodrow Wilson, Democrat), World Ward II (i.e. FDR and Harry S. Truman, Democrats – both of them), Korean War (i.e. Harry S. Truman, Democrat), and, as you mentioned, the war in Viet Nam (JFK and Johnson, Democrats – both of them). I suppose that war mongering Democrats are responsible for more death and destruction that George Bush.

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  187. “The liberals of 40 years ago and earlier were a lot different”

    FDR interred 120,000 Japanese Americans for no better reason than they were of Japanese descent.

    Now Bush inters several hundred terrorist suspects, where if not actually found fighting there was some reason to believe they were up to no good and today’s liberals condemn it.

    Bring back FDR. He wouldn’t be a pussy about this.

    From your comments that FDR did good work, I believe you’re saying you’d be fine with interring all Muslim Americans provided a liberal president did it?

    P.S. FDR was wrong to inter Japanese Americans.

    I also like the quote, usually wrongly attributed to Churchill, but no matter who said it, and exactly how it’s phrased it rings true anyway.

    If you’re not a liberal when you’re 20, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative by the time you’re 40, you have no brain.

    “G-Spank – … I imagine if you would have been around during WWII and FDR that you would be espousing the greatness of Hitler and how FDR was slaughtering millions of innocent civilians.”

    Good analogy. Fortunately the American system is set up to protect G-Spank so that he can have these views.

    Reply

  188. “Saddam was confined politically, militarily and economically, he was going nowhere – in short, it was a fight that could have (indeed, should have) waited for another day.”

    So, Mondale, at least you agree on principle that invading Iraq was perfectly acceptable. The only issue you have is the exact time of day to invade, not the motive to invade. That’s not much of argument when you take the “moral high ground” of criticizing George Bush.

    If the Democrats and liberal Republicans voted to suspend funding for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan today this might force Bush to retreat. Yet, neither the Democrats nor liberal Republicans have the balls to do this, much less support out troops.

    In the end, people such as you say much, do little; and you wonder why you receive so little respect.

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  189. G-spank thinks that once George Bush is not re-elected (tip to G-Spank he can´t be re-elected) that the Muslim war on the western (Christian, Jewish) world will go away.

    More proof that when you don’t have a good argument you insert words into your opponents mouth that can argue with. Robert, you really are silly.

    Democrat President Kennedy bungled, wimped out on the Bay of Pigs fiasco and failed to get rid of Castro.

    The bay of pigs very well could have resulted in multiple nuclear strikes on American soil. Would that have been better? Maybe you wouldn’t exist!

    HawHawHaw,
    I didn’t say how FDR handled the Japanese was right. If I were alive back then I would have been against that, because I stand up for what I believe in, even in times of war. I know that’s weird to many of you.

    Maczealot,
    Afghanistan was the correct move (easy to see that), and Iraq was completely stupid (that was easy to see too). Now that we’re in this mess, what are we to do? Good friggin’ question. I guess the first thing would be to get these Neo Cons out of office. They’ve proved beyond a doubt that they are incompetent. Iraq is another Vietnam, and I doubt we will be able to see it through to stability regardless of any of your propositions, but my info comes from the ground there. GWB really got us into it, didn’t he? But let’s be real, GWB is just a face – it’s a whole posse that is in power behind him.

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  190. “I didn’t say how FDR handled the Japanese was right. “

    You said he got us through WWII and that I was ungrateful for what he did, which includes interring those Japanese Americans.

    My point is simply that what you call a “Liberal” from that age is a whole lot different from a liberal today.

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  191. “I stand up for what I believe in, even in times of war. I know that’s weird to many of you.”

    Not weird at all. In his own strange way George Bush is standing up for what he believes in, as are Al Qaeda, as are apparently you.

    So we just established that standing up for what you believe in isn’t much of a measure of anything.

    “The bay of pigs very well could have resulted in multiple nuclear strikes on American soil. Would that have been better? Maybe you wouldn’t exist!”

    Sure. Kennedy did the right thing facing down the Soviets. FDR did the right thing in facing down the Nazis. The USA is doing the right thing today facing down Islamic Extremists.

    Note that I ignore motivation for it: GW’s motivation seems to be because GOD told him to do it. Strangely enough, that’s Osama Bin Ladin’s claim too.

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  192. G-Spank;

    I see, the ONLY military and naval strategy for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan that you can imagine is to remove some Republicans from office. It’s obvious that you have no military and naval strategy for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    You know, your master plan of winning the war removing current office holders might work if Bin Laden was president and the Taliban had a majority in Congress, otherwise I really don’t see how the terrorists are going to capitulate with more Democrats spouting nonsense.

    Seriously, without a clear and defensible Democratic strategy to fight terrorism why should anyone vote for a Democrat?

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  193. “I really don’t see how the terrorists are going to capitulate with more Democrats spouting nonsense.”

    They’ll give up the minute G-Spank and all other Americans convert to Islam.

    The solution’s quite simple really, just take a pen to the constitution, cross out that pesky Freedom of Religion clause and write in that the official state religion is Isalam and we’re done.

    P.S If that happens, the government will find out why the second amendment’s there. My wife will be reaching for her rifle before she ever puts on a veil.

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  194. 1. Don’t support the Republican administration in any way form or fashion, this makes you look like a warmonger.

    2. Don’t vote against spending for the war either, this makes you look like a gutless coward. This may also make you look like a hypocrite, but that’s OK. The Democratic Party supports hypocrisy, it is just fearful of being called cowardly.

    3. When anyone asks, “How will you fight terrorism?” look them straight in the eyes and say, “Not like now!” or “Better!” or “Different!” Stupid, ambiguous, and ridiculous answers often baffle or daze the questioner and they will walk away.

    4. Pontificate loudly your opposition to current actions, this give the appearance of moral authority. The louder you speak, the more moral authority people may think you have.

    5. Criticize vigorously your opponent’s efforts, this gives the illusion that you actually have an alternate or better strategy when you don’t.

    6. When you eventually do have a strategy on paper that comes under criticism say, “That was last week’s plan, we have a better one today somewhere, and an even better one next month.” Always promise something better even if you haven’t a clue what the hell your talking about. Keep ‘em guessing! Confuse them. Make them feel stupid. This is the Kerry strategy and it would have worked if the election were not stolen by the secret Republican cabal.

    7. Always, always, always repeat this mantra. Learn it, memorize it, teach it to your children.

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  195. Seriously, without a clear and defensible Democratic strategy to fight terrorism why should anyone vote for a Democrat?

    Ok, Bush totally screws up and puts this country in effectively a no-win situation in Iraq. Since the situation he put us in is so screwed up, using your logic it means we must keep with his plan? That makes no sense.

    It’s like having a retarded kid trying to put a puzzle together. There’s a normal person that is saying “let me try”, but you won’t let them, because you don’t hear any definite plan from the normal kid.

    Anyway, I gotta go to the beach and forget about this stuff. Have a good Labor Day.

    Reply

  197. 8. Go to the beach.

    9. Forget about it.

    G-Spank, you are correct, we “don’t hear any definite plan” from Democrats.

    This means one of four things about Democrats:

    1. Democrats have no plan, thus you are unprepared to lead
    2. Democrats can’t think of a plan, thus you are too stupid to lead.
    3. Democrats are unwilling to plan, thus have no moral authority to lead.
    4. Democrats actually approve of the current plan, but just won’t admit it, thus are simply hypocritical and cynical.

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  199. G-Spank: “Ok, Bush totally screws up and puts this country in effectively a no-win situation in Iraq.”

    G-Spank – we won that war – Saddam gone, sons dead, democratic govt. installed, no worries of the country of Saddam Iraq terrorizing its neighbors.
    We won G-Spank.
    (Plus we have troops on both sides of Iran. Don´t think that causes heartburn for your nuke Israel Mullah buddies?
    It´s your friends the “Islam is a religion of peace”) Muslims that have problems not killing each other in Iraq.
    In Iraq Muslims are killing Muslims.
    They sure as heck aren´t fighting the coalition forces over there. Other than the ones the coalition troops go after.

    P.S. Today they captured the #2 Al-Queda guy in Iraq. I know, Sad news for you G-Spank. What´s Al-Queda doing in Iraq? Killing Muslims.
    What´s Al-Queda´s goal in Iraq- turing Iraq into Talibahn 2.
    Good news, right G-spank?
    I am still waiting for any Democrat to offer a solution to the Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq problem.

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  201. G-Spank: “The bay of pigs very well could have resulted in multiple nuclear strikes on American soil. Would that have been better? Maybe you wouldn’t exist!”

    Well, now you are really showing your ignorance.

    But I think its kind of funny that a you make an excuse for Democrat President Kennedy; as in Kennedy wisely called off the overthrow of Castro because of multiple nuclear strikes….from whom?.
    As if Kennedy didn´t plan the Bay of Pigs event (along with brother Bobby), didn´t know it was going on and suddenly he saved the U.S. by aborting the plan he approved to get rid of Castro for fear of nukes.
    LOL.
    The Bay of Pigs happened , the CIA-backed anti-Castro people invaded Cuba…it´s just that Kennedy got cold feet at the last second and would not allow the U.S. military provide cover for the anti-commie, anti-Castro forces. Democrat Kennedy wimped out. The pro-US, anti-Castro forces that landed in Cuba got wiped out.

    Oh, yeah, and Democrat Kennedy concocted the Gulf of Tonkin event so he could have an excuse to start the war in Viet Nam.

    But all that is okay, because Kennedy was a Democrat, right?

    Reply

  202. Paul in Florida:

    Don’t be too harsh with G-Spank. G-Spank’s partiality for unilateral strikes against nuclear-armed countries that pose a threat to world peace could be useful. I’m sure that even now; G-Spank is tallying how many bombs and cruise missiles would be needed to eliminate Iran as nuclear threat, and is itching to press the button. You go, G-Spank, send those wacked out Muslim nuclear-armed extremists to their paradise for the glory of Utopia. I’m with you, boy.

    Reply

  203. Soooo, if the West were to nuke Iran and martyr all 50 million of its citizens, were would they get 72×50 million virgins for the big reward? And do the women of Iran get 72 virgins, too? Are you sure that’s not 72 white grapes instead of virgins?

    These are the kinds of questions that serious muslims need to ponder. Don’t bother your brains with ridiculous stuff like science and engineering. After all, real muslims don’t need computers, just a worn copy of the Koran, thank you.

    To the best of my knowledge, not once does the Koran mention nuclear energy. So why do muslims have any reason to involve themselves with nukes? If it ain’t taught by the mullahs, then how could it possibly be of any value? I doubt there is even the mention of oil in the Koran.

    I wonder if Al Gore is going to write some Mac software to teach us all how to become muslims? Who knows, maybe he invented Islam. Maybe Al’s been hidden away for 1200 years waiting to return and put on the righteous path? Al Gore is The Hidden Imam?

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  204. “were would they get 72×50 million virgins for the big reward”

    After getting nailed by a Daisy Cutter, Osama made his way to the pearly gates. There, he is greeted by George Washington.

    “How dare you attack the nation I helped conceive!” yells Mr. Washington, slapping Osama in the face.

    Patrick Henry comes up from behind. “You wanted to end the Americans’ liberty, so they gave you death!” Henry punches Osama on the nose.

    James Madison comes up next, and says “This is why I allowed the Federal government to provide for the common defense!” He drops a large weight on Osama’s knee.

    Osama is subject to similar beatings from John Randolph of Roanoke, James Monroe, and 65 other people who have the same love for liberty and America. As he writhes on the ground, Thomas Jefferson picks him up to hurl him back toward the gate where he is to be judged.

    As Osama awaits his journey to his final very hot destination, he screams “This is not what I was promised!”

    An angel replies “I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you. What did you think I said?”

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  205. Maczealot…

    Actually, your “enemy” as defined by 9/11 was in Afghanistan, Pakistan and very possibly Saudi Arabia.

    And I was perfectly happy for the USA and NATO to attack Afghanistan: let’s face it, it already had anything of any cultural value destroyed by the Taliban, so you could quite happily have rained bombs on it for a year and a day for all I cared. Sadly, given that the US had the attention span of a goldfish, the job of sanitising Afghanistan has been left half-finished which is about as much use as only partially removing Japanese Knotweed from your garden.

    Afghanistan is now back to being a narco-state with opium shipments up 60%+ across the country and up over 150% in Helmand province; furthermore, the Taliban have regrouped and are now fighting a sustained insurgent battle in the south of the country. This is yet another iteration of the pattern of behaviour that has made Afghanistan what it is today and we should have done a more thorough and concentrated job before going to – unnecessarily – chase shadows in Iraq.

    I also single out Pakistan as a co-conspirator in this whole mess: Pakistan developed the whole mujahaddin concept and sold it to the US back in the Eighties. Sadly, we didn’t understand that the Soviet Union was just as worried then about Islamic fundamentalism as we are know. Furthermore, Pakistan’s nuclear teams have – with what can only be described as cavalier abandon – transferred nuclear weapons know-how to other Muslim countries, regardless of whether these countries were stable or involved in sponsoring terrorism. That the man responsible was allowed to get away with this by simply saying “Sorry” beggars belief – personally, I’d beat him with a cricket bat until he stopped twitching, but then I favour a more hands-on method of discipline.

    In addition, Pakistan’s porous borders and laggardly approach to trying to control the activities of the madrassas have been significant factors as to why we’ve been unable to pin down bin Laden and why we still have lunatics willing to blow up planes.

    Saudi Arabia also gets a big fat slap on the head for sticking its head in the sand with regards to the activities of Al Qua’ida within its own borders and continuing to fund the afore-mentioned madrassas with the express desire of perpetuating the ascetic, intolerant wahabbist version of Sunni Islam that has put everybody from Bakersfield to Baghdad at the risk of some misguided fool who wants to be a martyr.

    Iraq was a sideshow, which the pre-emptive invasion turned into a diversion, and if I can be bothered to reply to MeatOfMoose at some point tonight, I’ll explain why.

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  206. Okay, it’s time. Match the people (Rush Limbaugh, Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, John F. Kennedy) to the quotes below:

    1. “Republicans believe every day is the 4th of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15.”

    2. “If you’re not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you’re not a conservative at 40, you have no head.”

    3. “An economy hampered by restrictive tax rates will never produce enough revenues to balance our budget just as it will never produce enough jobs or enough profits… In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now.”

    4. “No nation ever taxed itself into prosperity.”

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  208. So Mondale, obviously those places are our enemies too. You have to start somewhere dip shit. What type of war would have happened if we went after Pakistan do you think??????? Get a foot hold in Iraq then work your way around. You libs are so freaking dense to not see what’s going on. It’s all part of the master plan. How come Europe can’t keep Afghanistan under control? They don’t want to so that’s the US’s fault. You are an ahole.

    Reply

  211. What can’t y’all look at ideas on their merit instead of which side they come from?

    If you write insults, did it occur to you that you may need professional help or at least help with emotional control? At a minimum, you are not adding anything positive, only adding negativity. If all you write are insults, you are also raising serious questions about your intellectual ability, and, by omission, stating that you have nothing of substance to rebut/say.

    Yes, sadly, vicious political attacks turn off the good, thoughtful people and cause them not to vote which is why they’re done. Sadly, in some jurisdictions, freedom of speech = the right to lie, which is just bizarre. And the right to bribe with unlimited “campaign contributions”.

    Why can’t you rant (or better yet organize) about institutionalized electoral district gerrymandering where one party or the other manipulates the electoral boundries to favour their party? Isn’t that electoral fraud? Isn’t this deeply unhealthy for a democracy? A constitutional violation of the right to representation?

    I don’t care who/which party does bad stuff – if its bad/wrong, its bad/wrong, period. Yes, the world is grey, not black and white, but still, there is right and wrong. Why aren’t politicans charged with fraud when they lie to the people? Corporations are (eventually, usually; attention lawyers: one word: Microsoft. Is the legal community sleeping?).

    If you’re blindly criticizing something from the other political party and/or blindly promoting something from your political party, did you ever think for a moment that you’re being played by partisan political hacks/manipulators? And that you should back away?

    What happened to independent thinking? Healthy skepticism?

    We’re on a Mac forum for goodness sakes – why can’t y’all apply thinking differently, looking at both sides to politics as well as technology?

    Remember that brainwashing, rote religious education, NOT thinking critically is how Islamic terrorists are created. It disturbs me to see signs of brainwashing/closed mindedness in the U.S. these days.

    As an exercise in good mental health, healthy independence, what about looking for good ideas from the other side? And engaging in civilized, respectful dialog?

    Did it occur to y’all that it is a DUTY of the citizenry to look out for the country – that is NOT get sucked in by slimey political schemes, be independent, think, be skeptical?

    And why isn’t everybody in agreement that deficits are a bad idea? And that cutting taxes while raising spending is just plain brain dead? And that, obviously, in some cases, small targeted tax cuts can raise tax revenue by stimulating the economy, but that massive ones will not? And that piling on massive tax cuts, when there is a deficit will make the deficit worse, raise interest rates and HURT the economy?

    Final thought: empty boxcars make the most noise. Think about this when you read/watch TV/write in a forum.

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  214. Sure am relieved – your premise is basically wrong.

    Insufficient taxes aren’t the problem. Too much spending is the problem. Reduce the taxes to a level that is sustainable, then cut spending to match revenue. This is the way conservatives think.

    Liberals want the government to tax everyone else, and then spend the money on liberal causes.

    We got into this discussion because Al Gore, the supreme liberal idiot, got himself on Apple’s board. Not that Steve Jobs is any more conservative, but at least he has a brain.

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  215. gb:

    Thank you for a civilized comment that didn’t attack the writer.

    I’m really trying to avoid filtering everything through a “conservative” or “liberal” lens, since that seems profoundly useless, at least to me, coming from the perspective of reality, and living in the real world and all that.

    Regarding spending, I’m basically trying to say look at things on their merit. For some things, most people would agree that spending is a good idea (a reasonable amount of well maintained roads, for example). If so, spend away, but tax accordingly.

    Too much government spending is a bad idea since government is, generally, inefficient and hard to manage, but so is too little government spending. The private sector policing itself has an obvious conflict of interest, so reasonable, professional regulation and enforcement is necessary.

    I also haven’t heard of anybody advocating a private sector military, where the army is, say, a Lockheed Martin subsidary – the military is a very big government expense. (yes I know there are private sector security firms in Iraq, and they’re getting shot up, just like the army).

    I understand that there are philosophies about more spending vs. less spending. I’m trying to make a more basic point: tax according to what you spend.

    Since government is usually trying to figure out what to spend on, that’s where the control has to come. But tie taxes to whatever you spend.

    Don’t like raising taxes? No problem, cut spending. Don’t like cutting spending? No problem, raise taxes. What will typically happen is a bit of both cutting spending and raising spending, a bit of tax cut and a bit of tax increase, with the odd very noticable tax increase for major expenditures like the medicare drug benefit and wars. But these increases had better be rolled back when, for example, the war is over.

    What is the right level of taxation? No deficit.

    Now cutting taxes while increasing spending? That’s like seeing a truck pull out in front of you and flooring the gas instead of the brake – you’re going to crash if you do that, guaranteed, obviously.

    Oh, and one more thing: since lying, sadly, seems to be part of the job description of politicans, why does anybody believe them when they claim media bias? A politican is saying somebody is biased….

    Humm, that is possible but isn’t it more likely that the politican is simply lying, again? Or deceiving somebody to repeat what they know to be a lie?

    Isn’t is possible that some news organizations (the ones who really try to be professional) are simply trying to do the best – report as they see it, with imperfect tools – human beings?

    Reply

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