Ultimately Apple’s iPod is doomed to fail because it “only allows a very, very slim amount of participation by the outside world,” according to Dave Winer. Winer, described by PBS weekly online TV show NerdTV’s website, as the “Father of RSS and Web Logging,” talked about Apple’s iPod with the PBS’s Robert X. Cringeley in a portion of a rambling interview:
Be inclusive… Where it’s exclusive, you’re hurt – it’s not gonna work. That’s the Internet. And you might argue, actually, that that has always, even when we didn’t call what we were doing the Internet, that really was what we were doing. That was why the Apple II worked. That was why the Lisa did not work. That’s why the Mac worked, you know. That’s why ultimately the iPod is doomed. Because the iPod only allows a very, very slim amount of participation by the outside world. And, I guess it’s a temporary thing. The music industry needed that kind of – sort of control over it in order for them to let that thing do what it was doing. But, long-term, it doesn’t have a future in that way.
And I think part of it is the paranoia of the music industry, and part of it is that Steve Jobs really doesn’t like open platforms. And, ultimately, you know, he’s quite happy that – but something like the Archos that runs Linux, and it’s completely wide open. Supports – has Wi-Fi. It has every port known to man on it. That it’s not a – I mean nobody’s heard of it. Doesn’t matter. That’s the kind of product we’re gonna end up using, because it’s just – ’cause somebody’s gonna come up with killer app for all those – you know, whatever, anyway I’m rambling.
One of the things that’s like totally depressing about the iPod is all the car manufacturers that are building in iPod compatible ports there. That’s crazy, you know? USB, please, you know? I mean don’t do that. That’s so bad. – Dave Winer, October 11, 2005.
Winer also comments on Apple and CEO Steve Jobs:
Apple actually does work, okay? It’s the exception to the rule. It is the you sit at his feet and you receive the word of God. Okay. I personally can’t stomach that. I cannot sit in a goddamn room with Steve Jobs doing that. I wanna puke, you know?
It grosses me out, but there are a lot of people who like it, and his art is impeccable. I mean I did finally break down and buy a Mac, and I got it, and I like it. Hey, it’s a nice computer. It feels good. It’s – I like my Sony VAIO, too, but the Mac’s a good computer. He breaks the rule, and he gets away with it. But nobody else does.
There really shouldn’t even be one. Well, you see, his fatal flaw is the iPod, right? And the iPod’s wonderful. It’s breaking the market in every – it’s breaking it wide open. But it’s breaking it wide open for somebody else, because he’s playing the damn game the same way he always does. He can’t get spread out far enough to actually be the guy who continues to run it later. He’s doing it again.
He probably knows he’s doing it, okay. And he’s certainly cleaning up. And we’ll pay attention to whatever he comes out with next. That’s for sure. And it probably will be great, so, you know, but that’s his fatal flaw. But it’s probably one that he factors in. Jobs factors in, probably.
Full transcript here.
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Why is it totally depressing that all the car makers are building in iPod compatible ports, Dave? Because it shoots your argument that “iPod is exclusive” all to hell? Archos? Is that a joke? If not, give us a break. It’s an iPod world, Dave. Get used to it.
You have to expect this type of “expert” to be all about ultimate “openness.” Too bad it’s at the expense of common sense here. Winer is flat wrong about the iPod. The iPod+iTunes is the only cross-platform (Mac and Windows) solution, for one example of inclusiveness. It’s the Windows-only Napster, Yahoo, MSN-type outfits that practice exclusion.
Probable reason for Winer’s comments? Apple blasted by RSS community leaders for ‘proprietary’ iTunes Podcast implementation – July 05, 2005
Related articles:
Apple’s vs. Microsoft’s music DRM: whose solution supports more users? – August 17, 2005
Apple’s roadkill whine in unison: ‘incompatibility is slowing growth of digital music’ – August 13, 2005
Apple’s new iMac G5, iTunes 6, iPod video designed to bait Hollywood – October 13, 2005
Apple video iPod+iTunes could create mass audience for video on the go, despite studios’ misgivings – October 13, 2005
Watching episode of ABC’s ‘Lost’ on 2.5-inch iPod screen surprisingly compelling – October 13, 2005
Analyst: Apple has just produced ‘the tipping point’ for entertainment content – October 13, 2005
Fortune: With video iPod, iTunes 6, iMac G5 and Front Row, Apple ready for ‘a good holiday season’ – October 13, 2005
Analyst: Unlike Microsoft, Apple has the advantage by not licensing their technology – October 13, 2005
BusinessWeek: Microsoft fumbles while Apple turns the needlessly complex into the beautifully simple – October 13, 2005
Video report: Apple CEO Steve Jobs discusses new iPod, iMac and earnings report – October 13, 2005
NBC TV shows up next for Apple’s iTunes? – October 13, 2005
Analyst: Real and Microsoft deal ‘doesn’t change the dynamics for Apple in any way, shape or form’ – October 12, 2005
Apple’s video play likely to unsettle movie, TV, advertising and retail markets for years to come – October 12, 2005
Analyst: ‘media companies will call Apple to strike deals, Front Row is Media Center done right’ – October 12, 2005
Analyst: Apple rewriting media distribution rules, more people will consider switching to Mac now – October 12, 2005
Apple and Disney usher in new media era – October 12, 2005
Apple posts QuickTime of ‘One More Thing’ special media event – October 12, 2005
Apple’s Front Row with Apple Remote and iMac G5: media center done right – October 12, 2005
Apple introduces new thinner iMac G5 with built-in iSight video camera, ‘Front Row’ media experience – October 12, 2005
Apple releases iTunes 6 with 2,000 music videos, Pixar short films & hit TV shows for $1.99 – October 12, 2005
Apple unveils new 5th generation iPod, now plays music, photos, and video – October 12, 2005
mike says:
“By propping up Podcasting, Apple can put off any subscription development.. free radio, video, etc content through podcasting.”
first of all Songs/TV Shows on itunes is NOT the same as podcasts. a subscription/prepay service can indeed help out both the music industry and apple because then the big wigs at my company can back off and enjoy a steady steam of revenue. rather than rely on having a user on average download sixty songs.. ( i am taking that stat from SJ’s keynote).
but fine i will cater to your argument.. keep songs a non subscription service but tv shows and movies i think should be subscription because 80211n is still not mainstream and the technology has not caught up yet. The files for movies and tv shows are too large and no one has 20 mins these days. Sure electric companies are researching ways to provide internet over power lines ( i am taking that news from slashdot/wired) but we are still far away.
The only thing i like about your post mike was itunes radio. Coupled with advertising I think both apple and the music/movie industry can get another stream of revenue/promotion of their content.
I can see an ad. for the next episode for Desperate Housewives followed by the latest song by stevie wonder being aired for the first time on itunes radio!
MW cool: as in Cool beans!
Music Label executive ANON: “Hollywood like the music industry would prefer a continous flow of money from a customer (via a subscription service or a prepay service) rather than have a customer come in buy 1 episode and run the risk of lossing that customer.”
Do you, or anyone else, know how many iTunes Music Store customers are a) repeat customers, b) buy from the same label more than once, c) buy more than 5 tunes per month? If not, I do not see the validity of your concern.
“… you know, whatever, anyway I’m rambling.”
The guy kind of sums it up himself.
Dave Winer is trapped in his own dogma. Trapped, as in contrast to being free. Being so trapped, it’s no wonder he feels excluded.
Listen to Steve’s advice within his recent Stanford Commencement Address about not becoming trapped in dogma.
Steve Jobs, as in Apple Computer, has many natural enemies, most of whom wouldn’t mind if he and the firm failed miserably. Could Dave Winer survive in Steve’s shoes, handle Steve’s imperatives?
Besides, Winer inappropriately makes his complaints personal. There’s a team of remarkably qualified people backing up Steve Jobs. Where’s Winer fit?
It’s seldom you’ll hear such drivel from someone who has so appropriately been named by his parents.
Dave Whiner.
Bambi Hambi
Mac360
If I ever spoke like this where I work, the company would have sent me to get some sort of evaluation..and some time off….I really don’t know what this guy is trying to say…I guess he is at a level that I can’t understand….wow.
…anyway I’m rambling — sounds more like brain diarrhea. Stick a wiener in it quick. MW: english.
MDN, are you sure this interview wasn’t with Ellen Feiss?
Not sure if everyone realizes, but Winer used to be a Mac developer and did a scripting app named Frontier with his company Userland. Applescript came along and killed Frontier (Applescript=Free and Better).
Dave has never forgotten that and he used every opportunity after that to bash Apple. In the last few years he has been quiet, but it is obvious he has never gotten over his deep seated resentment of Apple and Jobs.
“…like transistor radios…”
The funny thing is the other day I was clearing out a supply closet and found an old transistor radio. It had a stylish dial and was probably pretty slick for its time. So I showed it to another person and said “Look, I found an iPod Retro!”
Winer – appropriate last name considering the whining rambling interview.
I suppose somebody will call me racist for this one, too (even though I have no idea what this person looks like).
reading that made my head hurt. I ramble, and that made my head hurt. It would be nice if Apple could release iTunes for Linux as it is making headway into the desktop world. If theyre worried about pirating they can already strip fairplay off the tracks with software, but its a choice and so far I have no reason to even attempt to as I am very satisfied with my digital rights under iTunes. It gives me exactly what Im looking for, the only time I have been upset is when I found out other people cant stream tracks I purchased on the store when I share my library. Apple does need to release Quicktime and iTunes for Linux, its not like it would take long to get the binaries.
WHY DOES MDN DIGNIFY SUCH RUBBISH BY REPRINTING IT???????
MND is really wasting everyone’s time by posting such drivel. This guys has a serious ADD problem. He can’t sustain a train of thought long enough to even finish a sentence. You can’t expect him to reason beyond his obviously superficial and clouded view of the world.
Not even close to interesting. Apart from the insight that such a posting gives into MDN’s sense of relevance (or lack there of in this case).
I think Dave Whiner is partly right and partly wrong…
When you talk about software and computer file formats, especially because of the Internet and the drive to share information, he is right that closed, proprietary protocols and formats won’t survive. That’s why Microsoft is relatively flat as far as growth is concerned. They always have to adapt anything they do to hook that format or protocol to either the Windows OS or the Office suite. Whiner stated that – Microsoft is trying to turn back the clock – back to the early 90’s, but they just are not able to put the genie back in the bottle.
Dave is also right about Apple being an exception to the rule. The iPod is also an exception to the rule – to a point. First of all, I don’t think that he has ever looked at the whole iPod thing. What he doesn’t get is that it’s just not the iPod – it’s the iPod and iTunes and iTMS and pricing and the whole purchase model. Another reason that I know he has not actually looked at the whole iPod phenomenon is that he refers to the iPod format as closed, and he doesn’t know that the other music/player offerings are more closed and proprietary. Can you get Windows Media Player for the Mac? Can you get it for any flavor of Linux? What about some of the other music software? At the same time, Apple (Steve Jobs) is going to eventually HAVE to license FairPlay to 3rd parties or get left behind.
He missed his own explanation about why the iPod is an exception that works. In that interview he was talking about the RSS and how the subscription model for news sites don’t work. I think the same holds true for online music. If it’s not quick, easy and cheap, there’s always the p2p model to get it for free.
As far as iPod video – I’m just not sure that it will be as successful as music. There is some very compelling concepts that make this very interesting. The idea of being able to load some movies and TV shows on a video iPod and being able to connect it to a laptop or video display in your car or connect it to a TV at a friend’s house or in a hotel room would be very cool. Although there are similarities, there are also some very distinct differences:
There will be infinitely more resistance by the motion picture industry to allow this type of purchasing model. Whether they finally allow this type of distribution method is yet to be seen.
Most TV shows and movies are what I would consider dated material. If you like a song, you can listen to it over and over, but the average TV show or movie you will watch it once or twice, then that’s it. Except for the exceptional cult classic most folks will not be willing to pay purchase price for that – they will want to pay a rental cost. I would class music videos as more music than video. Those would probably work with the music model. To be successful, I think there will have to be some kind of ‘rental’ model for video to make this all take off like the music/iPod experience.
What a Whiner
>>WHY DOES MDN DIGNIFY SUCH RUBBISH BY REPRINTING IT???????
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Hey, this thread was one of the best laughs I’ve had all week and I for one applaud MDN for posting it.
As for Winer, people have pretty much said it all here but I would make one point. Dave Winer is a man who got really lucky way back when and made enough money to survive without having to work (sold an outliner that never amounted to anything). Since then he’s done a bunch of small things and hyped himself into an “opinion maker”. Those things were…
He made minor changes to RSS (which was invented by Netscape) and claims to be the father of RSS
He started Userland, the smallest blog platform around, and claims to be the father of blogging
Adam Curry came up with podcasting and Winer “created” the enclosure tag to facilitate it and now claims to be the father of podcasting (a clever idea but hardly a revolution)
So basically, Winer is a guy who has never done anything of much use and has been insulated from the world for so long that he can barely speak coherently anymore. He thinks everything should be free and that capitalists are evil (but will do anything he can to make a buck because he’s a complete hypocrite).
I don’t take him seriously, but he’s good for a laugh.
P.S. He’s posted this thread on his site so you can expect his sycophants to descend shortly…
If you think he’s a moron, just imagine the people who worship him!
My DVD player is a closed platform – I can’t play DVDs on it that don’t conform to my area zone code or whatever it’s called, and I can’t change the software. But I don’t care – my DVD player plays DVDs very nicely, which is what I bought it for.
TiVo is a closed system. They control their product. Yet they sell millions of the devices, because it’s well done and makes recording TV very easy.
I find it rather funny that these analysts, commentators, people who hate Jobs, etc. don’t think the iPod will evolve and change to meet new needs, new features, etc. “But it’s just a music player!” They’re so shortsighted and blinded by their hate for Apple’s success.
“…anyway I’m rambling.”
That is the only coherent statement in the article.
I think the music executive summons up quite nicely the problem with the music industry, more concerned with revenue stream then their customers. Capitalism is about what the consumer wants not what the producer wants to sell. Five minutes with a calculator tells you that a subscription music service is not a good value.
i hate to go negative but whiner has to be one of the biggest jerks in the industry. what a thoroughly unlikeable fellow. if you’re among the circle jerkers who worship at his feet, all is great & groovy. but daresay you challenge him, the poor girl goes ballistic. it’s really a sight to see. but as someone commented earlier, he’s a dinosaur. not really relevant to the conversation going forward