“Apple Inc. customers, unhappy that the company dropped FireWire from its newest notebooks, are venting their frustrations on the company’s support forum in several hundred messages,” Gregg Keizer reports for Computerworld. “Within minutes of Apple CEO Steve Jobs wrapping up a launch event in Cupertino, Calif., users started several threads on the company’s support forum blasting the omission of a FireWire port on the new MacBook laptop.”
“‘Apple really screwed up with no FireWire port,’ said Russ Tolman, who inaugurated a thread that by Thursday had collected more than 200 messages and been viewed over 5,000 times,” Keizer reports. “Ironically, Apple has been one of the biggest boosters of the spec and was one of the primary drivers of the technology when it began development in the late 1980s.”
“Although the upper-end MacBook Pro — which Apple also revamped and relaunched Tuesday — includes a FireWire 800 port, users,” Keizer reports. “Others pointed out that the previous-generation MacBook, which Apple is still selling at a reduced price of $999, includes a FireWire port.”
“Apple has ditched technologies before, most notably when it was one of the first computer makers to abandon the 3.5-in. floppy drive in favor of an internal CD-ROM drive,” Keizer reports.
Full article here.
As we wrote yesterday, in a paragraph some seem to have missed (we suspect temporary rage-induced blindness):
“We’re still trying to figure out how Apple, among other concerns, plans to resolve the dichotomy between MacBooks that ship with iMovie and the lack of a FireWire port for DV cameras; the few relatively expensive solutions we’ve found so far (USB to FireWire DV Adapter) are all Windows-only. Surely Apple doesn’t expect hundreds of thousands of potential MacBook buyers who also own cameras equipped with FireWire to go buy new USB 2 cameras, right? Some other solution must exist or be in the works, right, Apple?”
To say nothing of existing FireWire drives and other peripherals.
Hello, Apple?
hmmmm – Apple is figuring people who buy a ‘basic’ laptop will be using ‘basic’ usb2 items with it. That doesn’t make sense in Bizarro World, but in regular old daily life it does.
Plus, Apple would cannibalize sales giving cheapos firewire AND high end graphics, because every cheapskate would buy a Macbook and try to cut corners. I hear it all the time: “I want to buy the cheapest laptop, camera, software, and skip training, but make large sums of money like the ‘pros’ do. And that’s exactly why these people will never be pros.
Here’s a hint – get the money from your wife/girlfriend, if she doesn’t have the $800 difference to get a Macbook Pro, you have bigger problems already.
Again, I fail to see what Target Disk Mode offers over an external HD boot. All you need is an external HD, and a bootable backup (SuperDuper, Carbon Copy Cloner). Which most people already have for backup purposes anyway.
Look, I prefer FireWire over USB any day. It’s clearly superior technology. But it’s not that much of a deal. Unless you’re having an older DV camera. But, well, there always were, and there always will be formats that die. It sucks, but c’est la vie.
@maclover
http://www.sweetwater.com/c683–FireWire_Audio_Interfaces
This is where most musicians sink big money (not to mention ProTools). The more expensive the interface, generally the better the sound quality. Average price for a *good* interface is $1000.
So, I should just go get a crappy USB2 interface to go with my new (hypothecital) non-Firewire Macbook so I can continue to record on location?
It’s people who *already have* a sizable investment in Firewire equipment and would like to upgrade to a small, portable Mac laptop who are upset. And there are a *lot* of those people.
Don’t forget, the old 13″ Macbook had Firewire. There was no reason to expect the new one would not. I know folks who’ve been waiting for months to upgrade.
“You don’t need FireWire, unless you’ve already been using FireWire and already own FireWire devices.”
And if you’re a Mac owner you’re used to Apple periodically making your hardware obsolete overnight, It’s just part of being a “Superior” Mac owner. So stop whining.
The low-end Firewire audio interfaces are 24-bit/96KHz, while the midrange and top-end interfaces are 24-bit/192KHz which is the current standard:
http://www.sweetwater.com/c683–FireWire_Audio_Interfaces
The USB interfaces top out at 24-bit, 96KHz, with most of them being 48KHz:
http://www.sweetwater.com/c695–USB_Audio_Interfaces
Obviously, there’s a difference in price, quality and capability for sustained data transfer.
That’s the audio interface. Many people prefer a smaller laptop for its convenience and portability. The Macbook used to be fine for pro audio applications. But that option has just been taken off the board, since you can no longer get pro-quality audio into the Macbook.
The lack of firewire on the MacBook Aluminum actually means that the “MacBook Plastic” is a better computer for musicians on the go. All recording interfaces (that are worth a sh!t, anyway) are firewire – and a MacBook pro just isn’t necessary for recording on the bus or in the motel room.
So basically I’ll have to upgrade my iBook G4 to the plastic MacBook, instead of the aluminum one. Or wait and see what happens on the first refresh.
What kills me is, how flippin’ hard would it have been to put a bloody FW jack on there? Yeesh.
USB to Firewire adapters: Yes they exist and I will tell you where to get them for relatively cheap. The problem of course is that they effectively hobble your Firewire devices to use USB 2 speeds. Boohoo.
The adapters. The links below are to the cheapest priced provider:
1) USB to Firewire multi-cable. Connect a Firewire device to a USB input. $25. Read about it at:
http://www.jr.com/suo200-multi-cable/pe/SMA_SUO200/
2) A combo universal hub or USB and Firewire. It provides access to both kinds of devices. $30. Read about it at:
http://www.jr.com/iogear/pe/IOR_GUH420/
Meanwhile, I too am disappointed that Apple have essentially given up on Firewire in the consumer market laptops and the Air.
HOWEVER, Firewire is alive and well in the professional market and is going to stay that way. Firewire 3200 will be available for computer integration before the end of this year. When it will be available in a Mac configuration, I don’t know. Meanwhile, USB 3 is unlikely to hit the streets until 2010. And again, the ‘specs’ for USB 3 look faster, but again the spec is only a BURST speed, NOT a sustained speed. And again Firewire 3200 will be faster because its spec is for a sustained speed unattainable by USB 3.
Keep in mind folks that Apple has NEVER considered itself in competition with USB. Apple were in fact the very very first computer company to make USB standard in all their computers. They did it a full year before any other computer company. If you doubt me, trolls, go do some homework and you’ll notice I am correct.
About HD camcorder and FireWire; many here are spreading a lot of confusion. Here’s the story.
HDV camcorders (i.e. HD models using MiniDV tape) are in a way, successors to the MiniDV camcorders of yesterday. The only way you can transfer/capture video from that tape is in real time, which is via FireWire. These are slowly dying away. Out of nine current consumer HD models, Canon only has two HDV models, one of which has been discontinued and superseeded by the other.
Tapeless camcorders seem to be the way to go. They can use HDV or AVCHD (the latter rapidly overtaking the former in popularity). These DON’T have FireWire; instead, they only use USB2, since there is no need for a continuous high-speed stream of data for real-time capture.
iMovie08 can automatically acquire content from these camcorders. Old Guy with a Beard is wrong; the process is simple intuitive and (relatively) fast – just like iPhoto. You connect your AVCHD (or tapeless HDV) camcorder via cable (or take SDHC card and stick it in the card reader), click on camera icon and all individual shots will appear as thumbnails. It may take a minute or so to import them if you have hundreds of shots. You choose which shots to import into iMovie and click Import. The clips get into iMovie library and you edit. Nothing simpler than that. And no FireWire in sight.
It is very likely that consumers will, over the next year or two, rapidly adopt HD camcorders. Vast majority of those will be tapeless. They won’t have FireWire and wouldn’t need it anyway.
Having switched from MiniDV to tapeless AVCHD (Canon’s HF-100), I no longer have any need for FireWire. Therefore, I can explore the next MacBook when my current (1-year old) becomes old enough for replacement.
Perhaps Steve knows something we don’t. Surely, Apple carefully researches their addressable market before making decisions regarding feature set. I’m convinced this was a decision based on the realistic demand (or lack thereof) of the market.
The demise of FW started with the elimination of FW from iPods. The elimination of FW from MacBooks is simply step 2.
I’d like feedback from MDN forum members on a possible issue -the performance of Apple’s USB 2.0 implementation. This may not apply to newer Macs but, in the past, the built-in USB 2.0 on the Mac was considerably slower than USB 2.0 on PCs. This showed up in HDD tests in which built-in FireWire significantly outperformed built-in USB 2.0 on the Mac, but was much closer to parity on a PC. I don’t recall if a third party USB 2.0 solution (ExpressCard slot) fixed the issue on the Mac.
I like FireWire and am very disappointed that Apple arbitrarily chose to drop it from the MacBook. This is an example of an idea that they should have vetted with the Mac community before implementing. Retaining FW might have involved a compromise in terms of cost or loss of other functionality (e.g., reduction in the number of USB 2.0 ports), but it would have been nice for the Mac user community to be involved and to have some warning that Apple was considering ditching FW.
I can only assume that Apple believes that FW1600 and FW3200 will not materialize and/or cannot economically co-exist or compete with USB 3.0.
It was nice knowing you, FireWire. Rest in peace with 3-1/2″ floppies and Apple Data Bus and NuBus and …
@oh no my shorts
If people would use there laptops for more then ‘flaming’ and do some research, they would find:
a 12″ powerbook with firewire like i have on ebay
any other firewire mac laptop with firewire on ebay
a refurb old macbook with warranty for $850 on apple.com
a refurb new macbook pro with warranty for $1350
so they must not be looking for deals if they cant find some
me myself, it’s time for a brand new $2000 Macbook Pro,
I’ve been whining about the price for years, and buying used, but no more, I work to get what I want, and this is what I want.
PPL:
If you have 3 kids and can’t afford a macbook pro, well who made that choice? you or Steve Jobs? I want Dodge Chargers, and Nikon d700s, and Macbook Pros, and Denon 3500s, and sexy young floozys, so I don’t have kids because they may conflict with my needs. Everybody needs to man up to the life they want instead of blaming Steve Jobs, and EVERYONE, including me, should be greatful we can even afford macs instead of being in some god-forsaken country waiting for a $100 olepc running linux or whatever the hell that thing is called.
Be greatful not regretful ( is that spelled right?)
Not quite (it is spelt ‘grateful’…). The point is valid, though.
Clearly, the main reason behind getting rid of the port was savings. USB2 chipset is significantly cheaper than FireWire (google it up if you are in doubt). Couple that with the limited demand and the decision is clear.
Not sure if anyone’s thought of it yet and posted…but a person can buy themselves an 800->400 firewire cord (like steve said in the key note) and then have a firewire 400 hub plugged in – it’s a work around that would work.
The problem is that the MacBook is too close to the MacBook Pro in spec, so Apple needed to do something drastic like this to differentiate the models. If only the MacBook had an Express Card port then the problem of FireWire, eSATA and future upgrades would be solved.
Adapter cables will not re-enable target disk mode, which has many uses including the transfer of data from an older Mac to a new one via Migration Assistant. Adapter cables don’t solve the performance problem that many if not most portable bus-powered USB drives have when connected to laptop computers. You can plug them into both USB ports, but then there go all your ports. This has to be one the most absurdly bad design decisions that Apple has ever made, period. Unbelievable!!!
I think the decision by Apple to drop Firewire from the Macbook range is a good one.
Why, for a start many users, new and old alike had a hard time deciding which model to buy if you’re into any form of content creation.
I’m an HD content producer and I can recall having it hard choosing between the high end MacBook and the low end Pro model. This wasn’t good for Apple because it meant undercutting their Pro line, I went for the mid range 15″ Pro model due to the silver aluminium look, it’s more classy and helps justify my somewhat high hourly rate. 17″ is just too big for me.
Technically speaking I could have done my job easily on the high end MacBook, but the black or white look just doesn’t cut it. Black looked too executive as though I am a salesman, white far too cheap for reasons I have already mentioned.
Consider that and now the added aluminium to the MacBook line, if there wasn’t a major difference in either connectivity or look, that most likely destroy the Pro line, in my opinion. So dropping a connection makes sense as looks are also important, Dell and Sony know this now and is why Dell have their patterned cased range for instance.
Using the student analogy, for say a movie production or photography major, most likely be on a tight budget, my options in cameras do limit me to USB over iLink or Firewire regardless if its 400 or 800. These are the students that are most likely to buy Apple anyway.
As a professional my needs are somewhat greater. For a start recording directly onto a Hard Drive or other solid state media is the way that’s going, for instance I have a Red One camera and it has these ports:
FireWire 800/400, USB-2 and e-SATA interfaces
RED DRIVE (RAID)™ hard disk drive (320GB)
RED-RAM™ flash memory drive (64 GB)
CompactFlash cards (8 and 16GB)
Depending on project I use any one of those methods for dumping filmed content onto my MacBook Pro. e-SATA is something else, which I don’t use myself, not because there isn’t a connection on my MacBook Pro, instead some clients bring along a small e-sata hard drive for them to take away each days content for viewing, called dallies – so they can see how their project is forming and ensuring it is inline with what they want as it progresses day by day.
Since movie and photography production are Apple’s main customer base they are just changing to meet that requirement.
Yes things are changing as more office based operations make the switch, which to be honest they don’t care about Firewire or USB, as long as it’s got enough of one or the other it doesn’t matter. Even if not I’ll add more via a hub.
Things would be different if Ethernet was dropped.
I hope my example helps ease some peoples worries, although with Target Disk Mode, perhaps Apple has plans to change its methodology in its use?
Yep he could have just connected them with a ethernet cable and put in ip’s and subnets… —jonathan
Now that sounds easy enough. All I have to do is spend twenty minutes hassling with config settings to accomplish a task that is plug-and-go easy with firewire.
ADDENDUM:
Just to clarify, my 15″ Pro does have an Express Card slot. It replaced the older PCMCIA slot.
My point is that I don’t use it at this time. I might in future, so not to rule it out totally.
Again, I fail to see what Target Disk Mode offers over an external HD boot. —elgarak
What HD boot? As far as I know, you cannot boot up from an external USB drive. Someone at Apple outlined a way to do it, but the method involved reinstalling OS X, which is absurd!
You also fail to understand that target disk mode is necessary for migrating data from one Mac to another. Without it, one can perhaps use ethernet, which means waiting hours for your data to transfer.
@maclover
Yeh I agree, and its grateful by the way.
Lots of great points made in this thread. Here’s mine:
I don’t necessarily have a problem with them removing the FW port on the Macbook because my work is in Audio which requires the processing power of the Macbook Pro. That said high bitrate multi channel audio interfaces are ALL Firewire as are the high speed external drives needed to capture live recording. I have way more $$ invested in FW peripherals than I do in the computing hardware.
I can tell you the FW standard is not at all dead for pro audio users where there are no comparable USB alternatives. I am hoping this is not a glimpse into the future of the Macbook Pro.
To all those who tell users to “simply buy a Pro”: There are folks who use their Mac for work but don’t want the footprint of a 15″ model. The MacBook (white) has far longer battery life compared with the old Pro (5:30 vs. 3:15, with my use). Add to that that the “new” MacBook is priced like a smaller Pro model, and the omission of an important interface makes no sense. Add a FW800 port to the faster model and call it the 13″ MBP, for Pete’s sake.
The latest version of FireWire, which is not even in use yet, uses the same physical port as Ethernet.
I think the Macbook’s one possible saving grace is if it is actually one firmware update away from having the newest specification of FireWire.
I use my little Black MacBook I bought last May in my IT field work and I often have to connect to other Macs that are in the target disk mode.
My MacBook does a great job and I’m sure that the new MacBook, if properly configured with a FireWire port, would too.
1. 99% of people dont need / use the firewire port
2. most new digital camcorders use usb
3. you can get fire wire on a card dumbasses stop bitching
4. costs apple a little less to make
5. uses a smaller pcb because of it
6. more efficient on the battery
yes it was a long lived apple standard, yes it sucks, what are you gonna do?
my question is if you boot one holding ‘f’ does it work as a usb drive now? – and will that feature work with firewire if you have one in the card slot?
it does suck; dont get me wrong… but this is the value mac we are talking about.
@hagar57 is exactly right on all points. The best way Apple can save face is to release a 13″ MBP. Great idea, and one that would make many people happy, I think.
I understand why many people don’t care or see what the big deal is, but musicians were shafted by this boneheaded move – of course we’d all love to have MBP’s but that just is not always realistic or practical and we RELY on Firewire. And yes there are still choices out there – either buy the white MacBook “classic” or buy older hardware. But clearly a sign of things to come. Taking away a feature without offering an equal or better solution is WAY not cool.
Makes it hard to recommend an otherwise compelling machine.