“Apple’s much-touted new operating system, OS X Leopard, is in some ways worse than Windows Vista, says the founder of the Linux open source project, Linus Torvalds,” Nick Miller reports for The Sydney Morning Herald. “Torvalds was in Melbourne last week for the linux.conf.au conference and was invited to pass judgement on OS X versus Windows Vista in a wide-ranging interview.”
“‘I don’t think they’re equally flawed – I think Leopard is a much better system,’ he said. ‘(But) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for. Their file system is complete and utter crap, which is scary,'” Miller reports.
Miller reports, “He poured scorn on the modern trend to treat a new version or update of an operating system as a cause for major celebration and marketing. ‘An operating system should be completely invisible,’ he said. ‘To Microsoft and Apple (it is) a way to control the whole environment … to force people to upgrade their applications and hardware.'”
Full article here.
[Thanks to MacDailyNews Reader “bioness” for the heads up.]
MacDailyNews Take: Apple is methodically making their move to ZFS. Filesystem changes must be carefully considered for platforms with large user bases – which is something that Torvalds has absolutely no experience with on the desktop. The fact is, the performance of Linux on the desktop is, to turn a phrase, “complete and utter crap.” In January 2008, Net Applications’ measure of operating system usage share online put Linux at 0.67%. Ouch, just 0.67%, after all of these years! Apple’s Mac OS X, even with its filesystem that so concerns Linus, but which also happens to work perfectly well for users, stands at 7.57%, more than 11 times that of Linux. In fact, Apple’s iPhone and iPod touch already hold 0.17%. Apple’s Wi-Fi mobile devices will likely surpass Linux on the desktop this year. Linux users, and Torvalds himself, should give up the ghost. Linux on the desktop is a pipe dream. (Linux in the server room is a totally different story.)
As for an operating system being completely invisible, Mac OS X does a much better job of getting out of the user’s way than Windows or the various Linux flavors, which, from what we’ve seen, all seem hell-bent on making ugly clones of the Windows UI failure in what seems to be some desperate attempt to keep the delusional fantasy of Linux on the desktop alive.
Hey, brother, we didn’t ask for a war, but we’re well-prepared to fight, if you insist.
Apple has shareholders and employees and infrastructure. It’s a company, not a commune. To criticize them for charging for their work is disingenuous and/or naive. Obviously, if Mr. Torvalds has proven anything, it’s that you can’t get world class user interfaces from disorganized, disconnected, and unfunded ragtag bands of volunteers. The money Apple makes goes into perfecting the experience for the end user. Linux has so much to learn in the area of UI – the most important area for people who use computers, by the way – that it’s impossible to quantify. Even Windows is better.
Mr. Torvalds won’t like to hear this (and perhaps that’s why he’s lashing out), but, usage figures prove that, of the roughly 10% who are informed about what they are buying, almost all of us would rather pay for Mac OS X than have Linux for free on the desktop.
Now, all of that said, in a way we do kinda sorta agree with Torvalds on this general concept: The perfect world has no place for the very flawed Windows, the “choice” of the uninformed.
Our perfect world? Mac OS X on desktops, notebooks, and mobile devices (in the hands of users) and Mac OS X Server and/or Linux in the server room.
[UPDATE: 2:56pm EST: Attempted to clarify in the Take that most Mac users have made an informed choice (so have Linux users), while most Windows users have not (or they wouldn’t be using Windows, they’d be using Macs). Read any random bunch of independent OS reviews and Apple Mac is the clear choice. Much more than software lock-in, Windows depends on ignorance to survive (and even thrive) today.]
I hate it when we use “Windows Logic” to dis Linux. Such as “since everyone uses windows, it must be good”. Linux is perfect option for those interested in the platform, and their success is not based on how many computers are running the OS. Linux has it’s own following, own momentuum, and it’s own reason for existing, which really has no impact on Windows or OSX.
Now I’ve been perfectly happy running my OS 10.5.1, but even I know that I’ve bought into the Apple ecosystem, and that it comes with it’s own set of hooks and barbs. I’m happy, but that doesn’t mean that everyone will be happy, or that everyone should be happy.
What Linus said is probably true, and yes what MDN said (wrote) is also true.
“disorganized, disconnected, and unfunded ragtag bands of volunteers.”
Oh dear, there is that oft-repeated nonsense again. There is nothing disorganized, disconnected nor unfunded about Linux development. Quite the contrary. It is highly organized with a well-established (and well-known, if you care to look) structure; highly connected with one of the most active mailing lists in software development at lkml.org and extremely well-funded with heavyweights such as IBM and Google pouring billions into development.
Stats? “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics” Certainly true in this case. The low percentages oft-quoted for Linux reflect sales only. By far the vast majority of Linux systems are installed without any sale taking place — hence not counted by anyone.
As for your Mac: probably the best thing you can do with it is install Linux on it.
@ Jooop & MPC Guy
I totally agree… why does the user always have to repair files permissions, etc… I never have these type of file corruptions on my PC. Why is the file system so overly complicated on Mac compared to PC’s? Thank goodness for spotlight … otherwise it would be difficult to find any file on a mac.
HFS+ vs. NFS – discuss. Ready, go!
Sour grapes, bitter pill. Linux lost, Linus. Sorry.
I would argue that Leopard is the most invisible OS of all. It does not interfere or impose on my work or play at all.
Exactly the opposite with Windows and Linux…
I am using Linux for desktop at work (I have no choice). I used RedHat 9 in the past and now I am using FC6.
Man, what a pile of crap…
Almost all of you bashing Linux and Torvalds are viewing this web page on a browser based on KDE.
From Wikipedia
“Safari uses Apple’s WebKit for rendering web pages and running JavaScript. WebKit consists of WebCore (based on Konqueror’s KHTML engine) and JavaScriptCore (based on KDE’s JavaScript engine named KJS). Like KHTML and KJS, WebCore and JavaScriptCore are free software and are released under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License. Some Apple improvements to the KHTML code are merged back into the Konqueror project. Apple also releases additional code under an open source 2-clause BSD-like license.”
From a technical standpoint, Linus has a point. The current crop of programmers at Apple, though they have achieved some success, they are far from perfect. If you really want to sober up, go to http://www.rixstep.com and you’ll see the ugly warts that are internal to the Mac OS X operating system and file system. So, I can see where Linus is coming from. As far as consumer OS and all…OS X rules. The site is run by NeXT Step old-timers. NeXT Step was Jobs baby and was the precursor to OS X.
The move to ZFS should improve things. If the Apple coders stick to great programming guidelines and techniques that is.
Oh come on MDN….you can dish it out but can’t take it. Typical!
Torvald’s language is no different than your’s when it comes to everything else non-Apple.
I also think you could be very wrong about Linux in a couple of regards:
– If I could get photoshop and dreamweaver to work on linux, I’d switch. Microsoft office would be good too.
– if they made it easy to install applications, a lot of other people would too and they’re getting much better at that. YUM works great.
The latest distros with the new KDE look pretty slick and there’s more than one way to skin your desktop. It doesn’t have to look like a Windows desktop or an Apple desktop which actually looks like the Zenwalk desktop (hmmm, which came first, eh?). SuSe also does a pretty nice desktop?
I know that Apple didn’t invent their current desktop/dock paradigm.
Could be a different story in a couple of years. Things can change quickly – everyone thought Apple was dead a few years ago.
Geeze, Linus comes crawling out and making statements. Where is this Linux Desktop revolution that everyone keeps saying is going to happen and never does?
Perhaps Linus should run for office. He promises everything, delivers nothing.
Linus Torvalds vs. MDN
The Linux guy said something I absolutely agree with: “He poured scorn on the modern trend to treat a new version or update of an operating system as a cause for major celebration and marketing. ‘An operating system should be completely invisible,’ he said. ‘To Microsoft and Apple (it is) a way to control the whole environment … to force people to upgrade their applications and hardware.'” This entire “total-control” thing drives me nuts. Being locked into any company’s version of a particular technology is bullshit – But it’s also the way that it is – for the most part, (but not completely thanks to 3rd parties that do provide some cross-platform relief).
MDN said: “…from what we’ve seen, all seem hell-bent on making ugly clones of the Windows UI failure in what seems to be some desperate attempt to keep the delusional fantasy of Linux on the desktop alive.” From what I’ve seen I absolutely agree. Linux UI’s promise something different then either Mac or Win but up to now fall miserably short, and really do reek of MS Windows most all of the time.
MPC Guy said: “…finder works for the most part, but Apple in trying to differentiate itself from Windows sometimes does it in a negative way.” Listen friend, Mac’s Finder does not try to “differentiate” itself from Windows. Windows blatantly copies UI design concepts and functionality from Apple, moves it from right to left, or top to bottom, and calls it good, or calls it Gadgets. And they do that with impunity – Completely protected by the U.S. Gov. It truly pains me to think what percentage of our tax dollars go directly into MS’s pockets. Yikes! But the point is, just keep your who’s-copying-who ducks in a row there.
And what really bugs me about Linux is how Windows users that have never given OS X a good thorough try want to use the fact that they’re running Ubuntu et. al. as a way of showing that they’re not really tied down to MS. Uh huh, yeah right. And right after they get through showing off the latest Linux GUI they get right back to work by switching back to Windows.
hey there mdn.. go easy on the new guy :\
“Wow, a whole Mac department that has never experienced the joy of 3D gaming on a affordable sub $1000 system.
Amazing.”
Really? Why would I want to do that? I am not a 7th grader living in his parents basement.
I teach 7th graders, and gaming is more important to them than education. 35 year old gamers remind me of them.
Sorry, but true.
So from MDN’s perspective Windows must be superior to Mac OS just because it has a larger share of the market. MDN needs to word their arguments a little better when trying to defend Apple/Mac OS.
Leopard didn’t force any hardware or software upgrades. What’s Torvalds talking about?
As soon as I can resize a window from somewhere besides the lower right corner I may consider the Mac’s UI superiority.
Here are the warts..
http://www.rixstep.com/2/4/20080128,00.shtml
Software update 10.5.2 is hopefully gonna fix some of this.
Even with the bug, Leopard still rocks.
Well I have to say that leopard is a bit flakey, dashboard crashes all the time, as do other programmes, also things get sluggish, and my general impression is something a lot less stable than tiger.
Today i plugged in a new shuffle and itunes went looney and i had a very rare black screen reboot message. I would go back to tiger but it’s such a pain to do, I will have to stick with leopard till they sort out these problems, i do get the feeling that there was a little bit too much concentration on flashy effects etc and less on reliability
Linux is just a rip-off of UNIX.
“Utter crap” might be a slight exaggeration.
HFS+ is no worse than any other mainstream file system from the previous decade, and it certainly gets the job done. In the area of performance, it seems to run circles around supposedly more “modern” file systems like NTFS. The addition of journaling and metadata support has helped keep it reasonably up to the task of running modern Macs.
That said, it could be (a lot) better in areas like volume management, file integrity, etc. These are all things that ZFS is very good at, and is probably why Apple is moving in that direction.
By the way, the need to “repair” permissions has nothing to do with the underlying file system. HFS+ keeps track of permissions just fine – the problem is that various installers and other programs have different ideas of what permissions ought to be on the files and folders they touch, and as a result, they can get out of whack over time. Repairing permissions is not like repairing file system corruption – nothing is really “broken” at the file system level – all it does it set permissions back to what Apple recommends they be if they’ve been changed. And honestly, repairing permissions is way over-recommended as a fix to everything. It’s not really something that has to be done all that often in most cases.
I hate the knee jerk reaction to just attach anyone who says something bad about Apple.
I am a die hard Mac user, I have owned every one computer of EVERY mac generation, I bought apple stock in the dark days, etc etc. but I STILL don’t think just because someone has Valid negative criticism about Apple they should be attacked.
The truth is HSF+ SUCKS, and if there is one person whose criticism of our OS of choice should be paid attention too its Linus.
Instead of crying foul and acting like babies; face the truth and demand change from Apple.
OUR amazing OS needs an Amazing file system, and right now we are in crapland; wake up and smell the coffee.
He wasn’t saying Linux is better he said OSX is a great OS saddled with a crap file system.
As far as OSes being invisible, that point is also valid considering that this WAS the intent of the Mac OS to start with.
Simple, Clear, powerful, INVISIBLE.
like all good design it is not about the thing itself, its about its function.
MDN, Grow UP…
you make Mac users sound like whiny babies.
(Luckily the majority of us don’t make us look bad.)
Is Linus actually saying that the hodgepodge FAT32 and NTFS is *better* than HFS+?
He must be joking.
I want Linux to do well – a second front against the Windows monolith but it’s purity doesn’t cut it in the real world.
Reality check!