Rush Limbaugh spoke about Apple CEO Steve Jobs take on U.S. public education and unions today with quotes from April Castro’s article for the Associated Press:
In Austin, Texas, last week, “Apple Inc. CEO Steve Jobs lambasted teacher unions Friday, claiming no amount of technology in the classroom would improve public schools until principals could fire bad teachers.” He compared skrools to businesses with principals serving as CEOs. “’What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn’t get rid of people that they thought weren’t any good?’ he asked to loud applause during an education reform conference.”
The bottom line here is when he says, “I believe what’s wrong with our schools in this nation is that they’ve become unionized in the worst possible way,” conservatives and just plain people with any common sense have been saying this for decades, but could they get put into the headlines of a story? No. Only if you’re a big lib, only if you’re a big Democrat, do you get applauded for this kind of talk.
I am happy and proud to be on the same page with Steve Jobs. The way to put it is, I’m happy and proud he’s on the same page with me. If he finds out I agree with him, he might change his mind. But I mean this is classic. This is an AP story. Do you know how many average, ordinary American people have been saying this? Do you know how many political candidates on the Republican side have been saying this, and when they say it, they get tarred and feathered and the NEA comes after ’em? Jobs says it, “Wow, why, we must really think about this. Why, there might be something here that we haven’t considered before,” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Full transcript here.
Related articles:
Apple CEO blasts teacher unions, says US schools are ‘unionized in the worst possible way’ – February 16, 2007
Apple CEO Steve Jobs: ‘I’m going to just stay away from all that political stuff’ – August 25, 2004
Rush Limbaugh and Apple Computer to intro new podcast service via iTunes – March 08, 2006
Rush Limbaugh announces video podcasts for Apple iPod starting December 12th – November 30, 2005
Rush Limbaugh: ‘I am the hottest thing in podcasting’ – June 09, 2005
Rush Limbaugh and Apple Computer working to bring podcasts of radio show to iTunes Music Store – May 17, 2005
Rush Limbaugh says ‘Mac OS X Tiger Rocks,’ posts link to free Rush advertisement for Mac – April 30, 2005
The Hill: Put Rush Limbaugh on Apple’s board of directors; he could sell tons of Macs – January 26, 2005
Rush Limbaugh calls for Apple iCal to Sidekick solution – November 12, 2004
Rush Limbaugh: Why does Apple put politics first? – June 27, 2003
Rush Limbaugh comments on Gored Apple – March 21, 2003
USA there you go…
Greetings From The Best School System In The World
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Well, so long as Steve doesn’t start abusing painkillers and indulging in questionably legal sexual practices in the Caribbean we’ll be OK.
Good to see you back Finland, and I couldn’t agree more!
Wow, I can’t wait to hear the hate filled diatribe certain to follow from the Lefties after reading this story!
Please, don’t hold back, show your intolerence and be sure to denounce anyone not following in lock-step with your dogmas
Liberals have not tarred and feathered conservatives for asking for teacher accountability. It’s that liberals tar and feather conservatives for not proposing a plan that also takes into account the rights of unionized workers. Bad teachers need to go but not at the expense of other areas that make the effect moot.
No rant this time. I’ll just repeat once again, the solution to this problem is not nearly as clean and as simple as either Steve Jobs or Rush Limbaugh would have us believe. Until all the players in the education market are held accountable at roughly the same level, making it easier to fire “bad teachers” (however one chooses to define the term) would be like throwing a pitcher of water on a roaring inferno. A satisfying hiss, I suppose, but no real effect.
Go ahead, flame away!
That’s a nice picture of Rush.
“Liberals have not tarred and feathered conservatives for asking for teacher accountability. It’s that liberals tar and feather conservatives for not proposing a plan that also takes into account the rights of unionized workers. Bad teachers need to go but not at the expense of other areas that make the effect moot.”
Sure they have. Any time it is even mentioned there are huge backlashes and articles in papers, etc. As for “the rights of unionized workers”, what is it they are looking for that teacher accountability would ruin? Conservatives have also pushed for HIGHER teacher wages to encourage more better candidates to become teachers.
Whenever I see a quote from Rush Limbaugh, he’s whining. I thought conservative windbags like Rush were all about self-empowerment and avoiding the victim mentality, but every time I hear him talk he’s spouting off about how liberals and the liberal media pick on him and Republicans in general. Every day Republicans are sounding more and more like the libs they hate. Spend, spend, spend, bigger gov’t, bigger gov’t, bigger gov’t, whine, whine, whine. Republican or Democrat? Hard to tell the difference.
And I highly doubt the concept that unions were bad for schools originated solely from Rush (i.e. “Steve agrees with me”. What an effin’ ego). The two brain cells that aren’t awash in pain meds keep his fat ass body standing upright, and don’t have time for actual complex thinking.
And I know a case of good teachers quitting because of a bad Principal who was backed by a bad superintendant
MDN must need hits. Nothing attracts trolls in like invoking “Rush” on this site.
Let’s see how long it takes to descend to slashdot levels and beyond…
You guys remind me of people I met from Norway who said something similar. When I asked them how they managed to educate so many people from disparate ethnic and national backgrounds, they responded, “Oh, immigrants have their own schools” separate from the majority.
Oh.
Here, that was outlawed in 1954 because that’s considered racial discrimination, though segregation still exists in some form in urban settings, in particular. I ask you– if you have a large degree of ethnic heterogeneity, how does your country solve this? I recall hearing something about the Sami people– have they been an issue as they have been elsewhere?
I ask because it’s easy to work with everyone if you’re all on the same page (read: color, ethnic heritage, hockey team). Smaller is easier, too. That’s why in the US, you may hear of how bad the education system is as a whole, while the reality is that there are thousands of local systems that are excellent.
Just wondering what it’s like for you guys way up there in the cold north. Based on your tone, it sounds like you may have perfection.
HR
Way to pick apart his point of view.
You really showed where he is wrong and you are right.
Ever consider where you see most of those quotes?
Ever bother to listen with an open mind?
You actually proved his point.
Aren’t hemorrhoids a pain in the ass?
It curdles my stomach to read “Rush Limbaugh” and “Steve Jobs” in the same sentence.
Steve should have known to keep his mouth shut. You attract the bigots and idiots and drug addicts if you’re not too careful.
before this thread gets taken over by the political wanks who can only think of issues in terms of US left and right (which is to say far right and far far right from most of the rest of democratic world), i have one basic question: what sort of system of accountability would people like for public schools?
Supposing we all, as taxpayers, agree that there should be some way of tracking who is wasting our money and making life more difficult for their students, the question to be answered is how do we find these people out and get rid of them. Still with me? The next question to ask is: are unions making it easier or more difficult to get rid of the incompetent? I think the answer to that one is clear. Once we agree about that, the rest is just haggling over price.
The industrial revolution was a long long time ago. We now have wage and work safety laws to protect workers from abuse by the factory owners. With these things firmly in place, why do we need unions again?
As you were …
the problem is when Rush says it, it’s pure ideology. He’s just saying it because it’s the Republican talking point. It doesn’t apply to every single instance (which is the downfall of ideologies)… in this case, there’s something to it.
predictably, Rush loses when he isn’t thoughtful. I like that Steve Jobs decided to say something that might not help his company’s sales in one particular state. He’s got a point.
The problem is, where do bad teachers come from? There’s a shortage of teachers as it is, firing them would give you a WORSE problem. Better to have continuous teacher traning, and better feedback mechanisms.
I mean, come on, when they make 30 grand, you think there are droves of new teachers graduating every year? Steve’s advice would be kamikaze on the American school system.
Maybe if we paid them more…
Oh wait, that’s a liberal point of view. Doh!
Mike
I don’t see where paying someone their value is considered a liberal point of view. Seems more like common sense, which should transcend idology, and is the reason Rush and Jobs agree on this.
It’s glib and fascile for both Jobs and Limbaugh (and the conservatives who commented above, and probably below) that the problem with education is “bad teachers”, and if we could just fire them, all of our problems will be solved.
The fact is that Limbaugh and other conservatives hate unions, no matter whether they do a good job or not. Schools are a perfect example of the so-called “market” not working, because you get most teachers working their asses off for very little pay, and doing a damned good job with little support.
Meanwhile, some jerk-off CEO (not Jobs) can basically run his/her company into the ground on a multi-million dollar salary, and if (god forbid) the board — comprised of his/her buddies and corporate peers — wants to fire him/her, he/she gets a multi-million dollar severance package.
Maybe the problem with education in this country is that we don’t value it as a society. After all, some kids still manage to get educated pretty well in the same school districts where others do not, and — even correcting for their socioeconomic advantages over the others — it is possible to get a decent education in a lot of places in this country. Those that don’t either don’t value it enough, or live in places where the schools have been allowed to fall into decrepitude.
And that has nothing to do with “bad teachers” or the ability to fire them …
Is those goddamn books. Burn the motherfsckers!
I think I’d rather have Steve agree with Bill Gates…yuck…
Yeah, Rush, isn’t it funny that when you are a loudmouthed, arrogant, obnoxious blowhard that noone listens to you (except people who think exactly the same way you do) and when someone who is accomplished, respected and admired (Steve Jobs) speaks, people listen.
Maybe it has nothing to do with being a Republican or a Democrat. Maybe the moderates (aka: the rest of us) are the ones who are willing to listen to rational, thoughtful and intelligent people regardless of their background and won’t tolerate listening to blowhards, regardless of their background, even if they happen to be “right” with the content of what they are saying.
As my mother told me… consider the source.
If there’s two things I hate it’s Rush Limbaugh and over demanding power house unions. The unions need to be controlled for sure, but Rush just needs to be lethally injected. Steve Jobs isn’t on the same page as Rush, because Jobs has potential to do something past breath fire about ideas that are different from his, and although some would argue to the contrary, Jobs doesn’t try to convince his peers that he “knows everything”, anyone familiar with Rush Limbaugh’s Show has heard his bridges from commercials to his show and can’t argue otherwise.
I’d be more likely to support Jobs on this (and, I suppose, Rush) if someone could give me a definition of a “good” and “bad” teacher, and who gets to decide which is which. I know at least half a dozen school teachers (including friends and family) and I’ve heard from ALL of them that teaching is pure politics: what classes you teach, what students you get, what classroom you work in, all of it.
How do you judge is a teacher is teaching well if they dump half a dozen “special” kids in their class. Or what if all the smart kids are tracked into a lousy teacher’s class?? Based on test scores, they’re going to be a “great” teacher, right? This kind of stuff happens now — imaging how bad it’ll get when money and careers are on the line.
That said, I have no idea how to “fix” the schools. I mean, how can you regulate that every student wants to learn, and every teacher brings their best game to work every day? You just can’t.
the real problem: Is those goddamn books. Burn the motherfsckers!
except for the Bible, i presume?
Well, Rush has been saying this for years, that much is true. But he claims liberals are praising Jobs for this. Who is doing that? I’ve read several articles ripping Jobs a new one for his stance. Wired’s Leander Kahney is the latest bozo to take Jobs to task.
Unions can be just as self serving as any greedy corporation. Protecting an incompetant workers jobs is just as abusive as coporate downsizing or outsourcing to save a buck. I work for a company that does business with unions and if you could see the backroom dealing, fraud, politics, and ego trips that I see you would be just as disgusted as I am by their pretentious and self righteous clamouring over workers rights and corporate abuse. Hypocrites.
MikeK: …give me a definition of a “good” and “bad” teacher, and who gets to decide which is which.
dammit man, get your own nick … i was here first. If you insist on keeping it, how about going all caps or something. Also you should know that i’ve pissed off a few people here. You may not want to be confused with me.
now, to your point. The answer is a combination of supervisor, peer, and student review. Throw out the top and bottom scores (like in figure skating, to control for personal bias). In addition to this, we add mandatory teacher testing, with minimum score requirements to keep your job and financial incentives for scoring higher. With all of these things in place it will be a lot easier to pick out the teachers who are coasting on tenure and 20 year old teacher editions of text books.
No system of evaluation will be perfect but as taxpayers we have a vested interest in how well these people are doing their job.
Dittos!
Is those goddamn books. Burn the motherfsckers!
Those who start by burning books finish by burning men.
Never forget that.
Rush agrees with Jobs, now it must be true!
MDN why not get involved in your local school, spend some time there, volunteer, help out in the classroom, help a teacher, grade some school work, and learn about some of the real issues going on. Why do people think they are experts about schools and yet they never set foot in one (and I am not talking about when you were a adolescent or teenager going to school looking at the world through the mind of a kid) go as an adult get involved, learn something.
I come from a family with seven kids, all of us went to public school, have multiple degrees and/or advanced degrees in science and engineering with the exception of one brother who only has a bachelor degree. I believe we had opportunities people in other countries never had. The difference between the students in our school who succeeded and those who failed is that the successful ones took advantage of the opportunities provided by them!
Get back to talking about the Mac or shut down!
This should effectively wipe out any political aspirations Jobs may have had.
Wonder if there’s still enough room on Apple’s board for both Jobs and Gore…
Eric:
“Yeah, Rush, isn’t it funny that when you are a loudmouthed, arrogant, obnoxious blowhard that noone listens to you (except people who think exactly the same way you do) and when someone who is accomplished, respected and admired (Steve Jobs) speaks, people listen.”
You know Rush Limbaugh has the most-listened to radio show in the U.S. with something like 20 million listeners, don’t you? As for people listening to Steve Jobs, Rush did remark about how funny it was that the media reported what Jobs said when conservatives have been saying it for years.
Hmmmm…….. I would have totally thought MDN would use one of the much-less-than-flattering photos for someone like Rush… but I was apparently wrong.
A hint of MDN’s political allegiance?
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This is just getting embarrassing. Steve should just stick to what he’s good at; this political crap is so dumb.
“Those who start by burning books finish by burning men.”
WOW. You are soooo right about that (and this is coming from one who has done extensive studying of such bloodbaths as the Inquisition and Reformation).
I come from a family with seven kids, all of us went to public school, have multiple degrees and/or advanced degrees in science and engineering with the exception of one brother who only has a bachelor degree.
All (or most) of you went through the public school system pre-Columbine, correct?
I’m a teen of the 80’s. The worse we’d have were kids smoking in the bathroom or sneaking a beer into the parking lot. The only time you saw a cop was for the occasional morning fender bender. Lock-downs were unheard of. Thank GOD I graduated when I did!
There are tremendous opportunities in schools today, but also equally tremendous distractions. Unions and protected-for-life teachers are just a sliver of the problem. A very broken society, psychotic PlayStation Generation kids, and anarchic classrooms, IMO, point to much more serious underlying problems.
Don’t forget that bad administrators need to go to. Administration consumes an enormous amount of school budgets. My parents are both teachers, highly respected by their student’s parents and fellow teachers, but they go through the most insane nightmares dealing with their school’s administrators.
MW=Carried. I’ll try to get carried away with this topic…
…or maybe I should try NOT to get too carried away with this topic?
I agree with Jobs. It starts because of laziness. I went to consult at a school district back in the early 90’s. A new superintendent just came on board. One of the first things they asked him was to do something about “Sylvia” who had been having excessive absences from her first day of her employment. He asked them, “How long has Sylvia been working here?” They answered, “35 years”.
It’s laziness. No one has evaluated education personnel effectively for years. So they get tenure and it’s tough to get rid of them. It takes patience, time, and dedication to evaluate teachers effectively. Two out of three won’t do. Teachers unions kick and scream if they are held to hard and quantifiable measures making excuses for parents, bad family situations, etc.
Don’t blame the teachers. Very few Administrators are able to manage the educational process in the school. Call me. I can help.
“I take it all back.” —Steve Jobs
Early one morning, a mother went in to wake up her son. “Wake up, son. It’s time to go to school!”
“But why, Mom? I don’t want to go.”
“Give me two reasons why you don’t want to go”, the mother said.
“Well, the kids hate me for one, and the teachers hate me, too!”
“Oh, that’s no reason not to go to school. Come on now and get ready.”
”Mom, then you give me two reasons why I should go to school.”
“Well, for one, you’re 52 years old.
And number two, you’re the Principal!”
Hmmmm…….. I would have totally thought MDN would use one of the much-less-than-flattering photos for someone like Rush… but I was apparently wrong.
A hint of MDN’s political allegiance?
MDN is renowned for its pro-bush stance. The fact that Rush is a Mac-head makes them giddy.
I love the site, but seeing that racist, draft-dodging, hate-spewing, hypocritical drug addict makes my large intestine want to leap up through my neck and throttle my brain*.
*All credit to Douglas Adams, another noted Mac-Head.
CounterCop
“It’s glib and fascile for both Jobs and Limbaugh (and the conservatives who commented above, and probably below) that the problem with education is “bad teachers”, and if we could just fire them, all of our problems will be solved.”
No, but it would be a start. Would you take that attitude if they were cops?
“The fact is that Limbaugh and other conservatives hate unions, no matter whether they do a good job or not”
I didn’t know that. Thanks for explaining me to myself. I thought I just hated the bad practices that SOME of them have.
“because you get most teachers working their asses off for very little pay, and doing a damned good job with little support.”
Well, then it shouldn’t matter if the bad ones are fired, and why aren’t they getting paid more? the union?
“I love the site, but seeing that racist, draft-dodging, hate-spewing, hypocritical drug addict makes my large intestine want to leap up through my neck and throttle my brain*.”
Who said anything about Bill Clinton?
Hey Ug,
Steve used to be a big drug user himself.
WTF are skrools????
Screwed up schools?
That Rush is such a wonderful man. Thank the lord for him exposing liberals for what they really stand for.
“WTF are skrools’
ebonics
I wonder when was the last time Steve or Rush spent extensive time in a school. You know, as a volunteer or as a parent of a student. Its pretty easy to make comments from a distance without any knowledge of what is really going on. Kinda of like us making comments on what is wrong with Apple’s upper management.
“That’s a nice picture of Rush.”
Yes, he does look rather dapper in that photograph.
I hear Bill Clinton is also a cigar man.
RMN
Actually school vouchers would solve the whole problem… (instead of private education being a priviledge of the rich)
Exactly how is it that private schools attract better, more highly qualified teachers and yet, ironically, offer LESS pay and FEWER benefits?
Maybe it’s not the pay folks! (the libs never seem to get this one right)…. I have attended both public & private schools (grammar & middle school public, high school private) and the difference in the quality of teachers was amazing in spite of the pay differential….
Meanwhile incompetent Rollins on leaving Dell only gets $5M:
Dell’s executive compensation committee has proved the cruelest of masters, handing ex-CEO Kevin Rollins a piddling $5m on his way out of Round Rock. The company today revealed the embarrassing payout in a SEC filing, detailing its parting of ways from Rollins.
The former CEO will stay on until May 4 as an advisor and continue to receive his salary and benefits until the final axe falls. At that point, the severance package – if you can call it that – kicks in with Rollins taking five $1m installments through April 15, 2008.
You’d have to go back to the Carter years to find a top executive taking such a slim exit deal.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/21/rollins_exit_slap/
I think the biggest problem in renumeration today is the discrepancy between executive pay and that of the ordinary worker.
I’m tired of people like Rush and those at FOX (faux) NEWS, trying to divide our country with the old tired propaganda, that Liberals are worse than the Taliban !!
Our country was founded on the presumption that ALL points of view are valid, as well as necessary.. if we are to keep our nation healthy ..
Imagine, if EVERYONE thought like the neocons !! ..
So.. the next time you feel like blasting a Liberal … or a Conservative, for that matter … stop and think for a moment …
We need both !!
uhhhh its called balance !!
“Steve should have known to keep his mouth shut. You attract the bigots and idiots and drug addicts if you’re not too careful.”
Yeah, like people named ‘Ugh’
“The problem is when Rush says it, it’s pure ideology. He’s just saying it because it’s the Republican talking point. It doesn’t apply to every single instance (which is the downfall of ideologies)… in this case, there’s something to it.”
so when two people say the same thing, only the person YOU like is corrct? Even if it is a “Republcan talking point”, then I guess you must support the republicans?
“The problem is, where do bad teachers come from? There’s a shortage of teachers as it is, firing them would give you a WORSE problem. Better to have continuous teacher traning, and better feedback mechanisms.”
There is no teacher shortage at all. I personally know of two people that have been waiting for an opening for a couple of years.
“Maybe if we paid them more…
Oh wait, that’s a liberal point of view. Doh!”
Actually Rush, Hannity and others have been advocating higher pay to attract higher quality teachers for years.
California took up this issue with a popular vote on this very issue, and it failed.
Seems that in the long list solutions to improving public education, this issue was far down the list.
Maybe Steve Jobs was in Paris on election day.
RMN said: I hear Bill Clinton is also a cigar man.
Yes, he is. I once shared a cigar with him. His knowledge of cigars is vast!
If I was Steve, I’d do a 180! He has to know that if Rush agrees with you, then you are in trouble…unless they are on the blow.
Hey! I agree with Steve and Rush too!
“Well, so long as Steve doesn’t start abusing painkillers and indulging in questionably legal sexual practices in the Caribbean we’ll be OK.”
Instead, he will get bjs in the executive office and drive young women off bridges and elave them to drown.
Yu’al know this also goes for colleges and universities….in fact I have a very good friend that teaches at a very large university in Oklahoma and when he got there, all he could talk about is tenure…(did I spell that right)….and he and I went to another very large state university in Arizona, where we constantly were amazed at some of the professors that were not doing their jobs…they just plain sucked, but they couldn’t get rid of them….now, he is one of those and sits back and does nothing…this just isn’t right and needs to be corrected….nothing political here at all…
but the old saying is something like this:…”those that can, work, those that can’t, teach”……how true it is….
Please God, never assault my eyes again with a headline containing the name Steve Jobs with filth like Limbaugh!
We ought to teach English only in all the schools in the USA for a start. Then Eliminate the 14th amendment, which was meant for the children of slaves, not so that pregnant women could sneak into the country and drop their baby to get citizenship—-ridiculous.
Steve should have known to keep his mouth shut. You attract the bigots and idiots and drug addicts if you’re not too careful. Kinda like –
“Are you proposing censorship? I certainly hope not, we don’t need, want, or respect those who do not support free speech as well as the rest of the Bill of Rights! It’s obvious that you learned nothing about U.S. history, you pathetic bastard. If living in U.S. offends you, much less visitations to MDN, please leave, the door is always open. No one is forcing you to stay. Adios, asshole.”
“Where Mac news come first” – yeah, right.
“Ready, get ready, get ready, Stormtroopers comin’, get ready” – Ted Nugent
When Jesus returns and Mr. Limbaugh is seated on his right, you Darwin worshippers out to destroy America will discover Rush and Steve are right, and our school textbooks without a word of God in them will be burned in the Lake of Fire, just like you.
You’ll find out, and so will Godless Europe because it’s the second Roman Empire. Ronald Reagan destroyed the Soviet Union, and George Bush will destroy Socialist Europe and terrorism.
God bless Rush and Steve.
“MDN is renowned for its pro-bush stance. The fact that Rush is a Mac-head makes them giddy.
I love the site, but seeing that racist, draft-dodging, hate-spewing, hypocritical drug addict makes my large intestine want to leap up through my neck and throttle my brain*.
*All credit to Douglas Adams, another noted Mac-Head.”
LOL on the Douglas Adams quote!
Yeah, I’ve heard around these boards that MDN is pro-Bush, but in my ~2 years of being a Mac-user (and reading MDN), I’ve never seen anything that would lead me to believe that. Maybe I haven’t been paying attention.
Meh… it wouldn’t change my opinion of MDN if they were pro-Bush. As has been said numerous times… smart people use Macs.
Ben Dover… et al
I’ve taught in both elite private schools & public schools… elite public schools select who they teach and exclude those that may be “inconvenient”.
Private schools don’t attract better teachers, the worst teacher I ever met was at a private school.
The trouble with anecdotal “evidence” as claimed by right-wingers (or myself above) is that it comes out in the wash when it is applied to universal education, and that is what is under attack.
Vouchers are private school subsidies. Rich people get to shop at “exclusive schools” while the majority get to go to some fly-by night enterprise…
People don’t shop at Wal-Fart because they “want to” they shop there because they can afford to shop there!
Same for education; discount education means shoddy “products” resulting in mass produced plastic people who are taught about rules and how to consume.
“I pay for a private school” as I was reminded by one very angry parent ” not so my child can learn anything but so she can meet people of her own class…” My crime was to suggest that we offer a scholarship to one—note ONE—child drawn from a nearby poor neighborhood.
Needless to say, you know who won that argument!
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You see stuff like this on MDN….. BECAUSE
1) It is relevant that Limbaugh and Jobs can have the same thought.
2) Because the people who run this site ARE NOT stupid, Cool-Aid drinking Liberals. Radical liberalism is a mental disorder!!
3) And Limbaugh is wrong 100% of the time?…… And you, as a radical, liberal are right 100% of the time????
Oh… not to let Rush off the hook.
I wish he would stick that cigar where his intelligence shines… now that’s a realbuttal!
Sorry, I promise no more gratuitous idiot bashing
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You see stuff like this on MDN….. BECAUSE
1) It is relevant that Limbaugh and Jobs can have the same thought.
2) Because the people who run this site ARE NOT stupid, Cool-Aid drinking Liberals. Radical liberalism is a mental disorder!!
3) And Limbaugh is wrong 100% of the time?…… And you, as a radical, liberal are right 100% of the time?
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OH NO!!!!!! MDN, Pro Bush?? Could it be?? OH my God, You mean all of you Mac heads are not liberals? ALL and I mean ALL my friends are liberals. There for I only see my world as all liberal. With bigoted, raciest Republicans that I can spew my “hate” at. That Limbaugh he is evil and wrong 100% of the time!! I am right because I am liberal and I am progressive. I think I am so smart!!! Shit!!
The real problem is unions in general. At one time they were necessary. They’ve grown fat, lazy, greedy and corrupt. They are killing this country. Pick your industry or government agency. In another 10 years there won’t be an american car made in the U.S.
Sorry but Rush and Steve are both wrong. Their solution to the problems in education are far too simplistic. If only it were that easy – you cannot just fire all teachers and problems are all solved.
Teachers must be trained to be competent in their field(s) of instruction. This is how you get a much better teacher in the classroom. Paying teachers more would be nice, but that is not the only thing that needs to be done. Stop cutting their health care benefits as well, because that is a trend that is happening all over America. Who in the hell feels great about going to work when you know your employer is giving you the shaft? Think about it…
To get children to behave better in the classroom, parents should sit down with their children and explain a few things. eg. how to respect their teachers and elders – that would be a start. Perhaps then a teacher that is competent could teach a class without having to be constantly interrupted by someone who thinks its funny to be disrupting the teacher’s lessons.
We need the ability to get rid of school board members and principals that are bad as well, not just the bad teachers. Like I said in a previous thread… Teachers, parents, students, administrators are supposed to be in a partnership for schools to run well. When one part of this breaks down many problems arise.
School administrator pay really needs to come down when you compare their salaries with that of teachers. The gap is incredibly ridiculous. No school board member deserves pay reaching $200,000 a year, especially when a teacher has to scrape by on just $30,000+ a year. See the inequity in the school system?
TowerTone
“I love the site, but seeing that racist, draft-dodging, hate-spewing, hypocritical drug addict makes my large intestine want to leap up through my neck and throttle my brain*.”
Who said anything about Bill Clinton?
Well played, sir. Well played. Though, to be fair, and according to the infamous Lewinski dress, Clinton spewed nothin’ but love.
Oh yeah – I’ve heard Rush’s pet cause is the cleansing of the frayed educational landscape.
I love morons that hide behind Rush because he has a loud mouth. I’m a liberal democrat (because you all aren’t happy until youve labeled someone) and I listen to Rush for this simple reason:
If you filter all the self-rightousness out and the machine-speak (simple logic that makes everyone that does not agree with him wrong – he and O’Reilly have turned it into an artform) – then you will learn something about Washington.
Rush is the union leader of white collared conservatives. And like unions – who protect worthless minions who can’t protect themselves – Rush serves the same roll. Think about that for a minute.
However – I think this is Rush’s attempt to cross-over. He is bored and his audience stale. He wants to try new things. So jabberwocky-ing his way into the attention sphere of Apples audience is his cry for help.
He’s an idiot. And he obviously has company.
MDN puts a nice ass pic of Limbaugh but when it’s someone they don’t like they photoshop eye patches on their face.
“He compared skrools to businesses”
Does he also have “skrool” aged children?
“This is just getting embarrassing. Steve should just stick to what he’s good at; this political crap is so dumb.”
You are sooooooooo right. Caring about schools is embarrassing and dumb
“I love the site, but seeing that racist, draft-dodging, hate-spewing,”
Isn’t it sooo much easier to throw out hateful insults than to argue facts.
I didn’t realize that Limbaugh was a draft dodger or a racist. But if YOU say so, it must be true…..even if you don’t provide proof.
No one else is guaranteed a job if they suck. Why are teachers special?
It’s a tough job and they might need to be cycled out if they are burned out and incapable of handling the job anymore. It’s too important a job to have people in it that are not effective and have no passion for the job anymore.
I had lousy teachers and we learned very little from them. I recall going into my high school guidance counselor and demanding that never be put in a certain teachers class again (one or 2 who taught my major) because they were so ineffective it was a joke.
Rush and Steve Rule!
“I wonder when was the last time Steve or Rush spent extensive time in a school. You know, as a volunteer or as a parent of a student. Its pretty easy to make comments from a distance without any knowledge of what is really going on. Kinda of like us making comments on what is wrong with Apple’s upper management.”
How do you know they don’t? Apple and Jobs do a lot of business with schools, therefore he may have been in many schools. And as somebody attempting to peovide solutions to schools, I am confident that Apple has done extensive research into the school systems so they can understand the needs of that market.
As a parent that has volunteered in public schools and attended public schools, I can testify to the VAST discrepancies between schools and teachers. Some are great, some are awful.
That being said, there is also the tendencies to allow the kids too much control and the teachers too little control. Money is great…technology is great….small classes are great, but there are more important things. Good, high-quality teachers that can control a classroom trump all the other things, as do involved parents.
Personally, I would rather see more money given to teachers to help attract better teachers than more computers.
“Our country was founded on the presumption that ALL points of view are valid, as well as necessary.. if we are to keep our nation healthy ..”
That is completely incorrect. This country was founded because the settlers of the colonies were tired of being ruled from afar without representation.
Also, ALL points of view have never been considered valid. Roger Williams was removed from Massachusetts Bay Colony and nearly killed just because he disagreed with the leadership.
Irish settlers were banished to the forests just due to the fact that they were from Ireland.
Black Africans were enslaved and their voices were ignored just due to the color of their skin.
Joseph Smith and his Mormon followers were chased out of multiple states and killed for having different religious beliefs.
Women were not allowed to vote.
The KKK’s viewpoint is not thought of as valid by most Americans.
“Sorry but Rush and Steve are both wrong. Their solution to the problems in education are far too simplistic. If only it were that easy – you cannot just fire all teachers and problems are all solved.”
-Nobody suggested that we should fire all the teachers. Furthermore, nobody said that this is the solution to school problems. The ability to remove bad teachers is just one problem that happens to be getting the discussion.
Teachers must be trained to be competent in their field(s) of instruction. This is how you get a much better teacher in the classroom. Paying teachers more would be nice, but that is not the only thing that needs to be done. Stop cutting their health care benefits as well, because that is a trend that is happening all over America. Who in the hell feels great about going to work when you know your employer is giving you the shaft? Think about it…
-Not all over America. In my home state the teachers had the top Blue Cross plan for themselves and their families for life.
To get children to behave better in the classroom, parents should sit down with their children and explain a few things. eg. how to respect their teachers and elders – that would be a start. Perhaps then a teacher that is competent could teach a class without having to be constantly interrupted by someone who thinks its funny to be disrupting the teacher’s lessons.
-Unfortunately, the children that are causing the problems are often the ones who have parents that DON’T do these things.
We need the ability to get rid of school board members and principals that are bad as well, not just the bad teachers. Like I said in a previous thread… Teachers, parents, students, administrators are supposed to be in a partnership for schools to run well. When one part of this breaks down many problems arise.
-Thats true!
School administrator pay really needs to come down when you compare their salaries with that of teachers. The gap is incredibly ridiculous. No school board member deserves pay reaching $200,000 a year, especially when a teacher has to scrape by on just $30,000+ a year. See the inequity in the school system?
-While I can’t speak for all schools, most school boards make nearly nothing for their school board work. Some are even voluntary positions. As for administrators, they do make those amounts, and deserve to, if they are doing their jobs. The solution is to raise teacher salary AND accountability. Some states do pay their teachers fairly well, but many do not.
“However – I think this is Rush’s attempt to cross-over. He is bored and his audience stale. He wants to try new things. So jabberwocky-ing his way into the attention sphere of Apples audience is his cry for help.”
I don’t think so. This is one of the things he has talked about for years.
“He’s an idiot. And he obviously has company.”
Well, you did say that YOU listen…..
“People don’t shop at Wal-Fart because they “want to” they shop there because they can afford to shop there!”
Incorrect. I am fortunate enough to have the ability and money to shop at a variety of shops. I shop at Wal-Mart because I like the fact that they have huge varieties of products in one place, their shelves are full and they have lower prices. I also like Target for similar reasons. Granted, there are some items I wouldn’t buy there (Computers, for instance), but for most things, I like it.
I realize that there are some folks who will shop elsewhere for a variety of reasons….they hate crowds, they like the more personal interaction in smaller shops, etc. However since you said “people don’t shop….”, and I am a ‘people’, I thought you might want to know that your generalization was wrong.
i had a bad experience once
The sad fact that Jobs and Limbaugh – an incredible hypocrite-blowhard agree on this issue points out how uneducated/ignorant they both are about the real problems facing educators. Of course there are lousy teachers, but there are far too few controls on the many lousy administrators/principals, many of whom were lousy teachers who left the classroom to make more money and get more power over their betters. The current mania of NCLB and standardized testing is killing education, and forcing teachers to teach more and more only to the tests that politicos and administrators make the alpha and omega of education. Shame on Jobs, and Limbaugh, well he has the credibility of a junkie. Go figure . . .
Wow! Rush is jealous of Steve.
> …When Jesus returns…. Get over it. Like Ghandi, no one ain’t coming back from the dead. I can’t understand why people expect such an event. Even Howard Hughes couldn’t hide that effectively. Until he died.
I’d be interested in knowing what Al Gore thinks about this issue.
What would the reaction be if Steve’s comments on this were something that Al Gore and Rush could both agree upon?
Wow. I’m so glad I don’t read the political threads. All I know is, if some guy came up to me and showed me the above picture of himself, posing in such a manner, I would say to him:
“Wow, you’re a real douchebag, aren’t you?”
Can any of you imagine the type of person who would *want* to be shot like this? Do you know this person in real life? “Oh yeah, can you make me look like the guy from the
” rel=”nofollow”>Warrant album cover? That would be great! Maybe you could get all my money and my latest wife in the shot too, you know, so I could show off all my stuff! Excellence In Photography!!!”
Gawd, please stop parroting this drug addict’s tripe. It’s gotten stale. REALLY stale. Let it die.
-c
The problem isn’t the teachers, it’s the paradigm. Making it easier to “fire bad teachers” will simply result in a rash of arbitrary dismissals more likely for political reasons than anything else. Attracting good teachers to a bad system will only disabuse good teachers of their idealism. Also, good teachers are the most likely candidates for termination in a bureaucracy given that they are usually somewhat non-conformist and assertive.
No more curriculum by committee. No more federalized standards, oversight, and economic “incentives.” The current administrative aspects of education do more to harm education than “bad teachers.”
On the philosophical level, use a multiplicative approach rather than an additive one. The highest priority should be to teach kids to love learning and how to solve complex problems, not how many facts you can stuff in their heads and extract later in a test.
(Yes, I’m over-simplifying, too.)
Great joke, very funny.
The only sensible thing said in all these threads.
_______________________________________________
Maybe –
S. Jobs has got the ball rolling and out in the mainstream, his take was purposely simplistic and the discussion is now developing.
I often tune in to Rush on my car radio when I take my lunch break.
HILARIOUS!
Yesterday, he was coughing a lot, and explained that it caused a pain in his side, etc., then discussed at some length his cough syrup.
THERE YOU GO. HE’S HIGH AGAIN!
I wonder how much codiene syrup he can suck down. I mean, if he can take THIRTY OXYCONTIN A DAY (while railing against drug use on his program), I’ll bet he can down, what, 3, maybe 4 bottles in a day?
What a wastehead.
Sorry to enlighten those to which this statement applies:
Rush Limaugh is a Big Fat Idiot.
Two pages of posts and more to come. Why the hell do you think MDN is running this piece. Their advertisers would love it. Both left and right moths go straight into the flame. Good one MDN you sucked ’em all in.
Steve Jobs and Rush share this fact giving them great expertise: Their highest accomplishment educationally is High School.
A much better picture of Rush Limbaugh can be seen HERE .
Very funny parody! (You could here the whining, even through that extrapolation).
I notice they all whine that way, Crusty old Ed Levine, Sean Hannity- especially.
He whines about Hillary, “people say she’s mean”.
What a pussy!
Here’s another good one.
http://www.jibjab.com/jokebox/jokebox/jibjab/id/106527/jokeid/40526
Steve may be liberal, but he’s also a billionaire and that clouds his judgement. He has no idea what its like to live off of $50,000 a year, let alone a teacher’s salary which averages less than $40,000. I know a lot of teachers. Its a thankless job. They work 10 hour days. They are no longer allowed to teach, because they have to follow some curriculum to prepare students for standardized testing. Forget talking about current events. It won’t be tested and they are on a tight schedule to memorize content before the tests take place.
Teachers aren’t the problem. Its the legislators and administrators who are the problem. But isn’t this the case in almost all business and government today?
Actually, a little-known fact-
Mr. Limbaugh was actually enlisted as the official Oxycontin spokesperson.
http://www.larryflynt.com/ad_parodies_gallery/source/rush-limbaugh-parody.htm
(Sorry, Granny. I know. I am a truly disgusting person. And creepy. Very creepy.
@ Jeff
You are the only person IMO that makes any sense here (I can’t count myself though). LOL
Do you guys know what teachers start at in my state of New Mexico? A whopping $30,000 for a BA degree, which is bloody pathetic IMO. My two year Computer Analyst/Programmer degree added on to the BA Mathematics (5-12) degree that I will receive soon enough will give me an extra $2. Wow! I busted my ass for my two year degree for a paltry sum of an additional $2. A teacher asked me this a while ago… With all the Math courses I have to take to be highly qualified as a Math teacher, why am I going to teach Mathematics? Sometimes I have to wonder…
If I go for a Masters degree within a year after I graduate, I will see only around $40,000 once I get it.
Yeah, teachers have it rough. They work (at my school) from 8 AM til 3:30 PM (7-1/2 hour days) nine months a year, with a week off in the fall for a break, two weeks off at Christmas, a week off in the Spring for a break, and anytime snow is forecast. They work a 180 day calendar, compared to a 260 day calendar for most of the rest of the business world. Hmmmm. lets see, 180 is 70% of 260. Looks like the pay is just about equal to the work output.
They work a 180 day calendar, compared to a 260 day calendar for most of the rest of the business world. Hmmmm. lets see, 180 is 70% of 260. Looks like the pay is just about equal to the work output.
Yes, because, as we all know, pay is always commensurate with productivity. Just look at the US Congress. Or pro baseball players.
@ Eric:
Overpaid, unionized workers are one reason (not all) our factory jobs are overseas. American factory workers performing unskilled labor all day, demanded to make near the same money as those of us with a 4 year degree or with a skilled trade. But those same people as consumers want their Walmart prices on goods and vehicles. So all our manufacturing has left for foreign places who pay less so they can have “low, low prices.”
Unionized auto workers getting paid high prices to put the same part on ALL day long, are the reason cars cost nearly as much as houses. (Not by California standards but middle america where houses range from the $50,000 for cheapies to $80,000 for average honest workers, and $150,000 for a really nice one.
The liberal union people arguing everyone should make near degree level wages has put the very people out of jobs that they were trying to boost the pay on. There was a time in this country when things were made here, were affordable, and ONE income could support a family very adequately. My dad did it AND put us through college with no loans on a trademen’s salary. Now with 2 people working you can just get by because of tax and spend and welfare and high prices. It’s a mess.
I was going to be a teacher until I experienced how out of control the classrooms were with the new liberal ways where kids do what they want and the teachers aren’t allowed to take control and make kids accountable for their actions. No wonder the good ones don’t stay, and the crap ones are there because they are too lazy to teach and too lazy to find another job and can’t be fired.
If Rush Limbaugh ever had an intellgent thought in his head it would perish from loneliness.
Yes, because, as we all know, pay is always commensurate with productivity. Just look at the US Congress. Or pro baseball players.
Yes, you’re right, it is.
Congressmen don’t make a whole lot of money, and baseball players make what the market bares. For instance, if player A gets traded to team B, and team B can now sell 2000 more tickets per game then they will effectively make an extra $8,000,000 in ticket sales and probably another $300,000 in concessions. Therefore, if he is paid $4,000,000 per year, the team profits $4,000,000 and is therefore worth the salary. It may seem unfair, but that’s business.
1. A key problem nobody has mentioned much is the kids:
Schools needs to adopt a fundamental, iron clad rule, with the wise (notice the weasel word here) teacher as the sole judge: students do not have the right to disrupt the class.
Teachers have a RESPONSIBILITY to enforce this, but wisely. That is, recognize that they’re dealing with exhuberant, often dubiously behaving students, but have “lines of disruption” that, when crossed, result in immediate removal, with escalation, with ironclad support from administration (none of this “thats your problem, don’t send your problems to us” B.S.).
A big problem today is that teacher penalties have been removed, and disruptive students get time off. Yes, teachers got carried away in the past, sometimes, but the pendulum has swung too far the other way.
2. Obviously parents are a big part of why the students are misbehaving, but the schools are pandering to the students and the parents by not being tough on this.
And, yes, integration of a variety of kids of variable skill levels is important (its the real world, after all), but only if the class is not disrupted.
And, yes, what to do with the problem kids is a hard problem, but, you cannot back down: students do NOT have the right to disrupt the class, even ‘special’ kids.
3. And its high time that parents were held accountable for failing to provide the essentials of life to their children. If a kid breaks the law, the police should be checking out the parent – did the parent damage the child by misproviding? Parents do not have the right to emotionally, psychologically and physically damage their children.
There, hows that for incendiary?
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(its seemed like the discussion was winding down, so time to toss in some fuel)
@ admin
“Yeah, teachers have it rough. They work (at my school) from 8 AM til 3:30 PM (7-1/2 hour days) nine months a year, with a week off in the fall for a break, two weeks off at Christmas, a week off in the Spring for a break, and anytime snow is forecast. They work a 180 day calendar, compared to a 260 day calendar for most of the rest of the business world. Hmmmm. lets see, 180 is 70% of 260. Looks like the pay is just about equal to the work output.”
I guess you are forgetting that teachers also have to create lesson plans for multiple classes, do administrative paperwork, mark papers and tests for multiple classes, volunteer for extracurricular activities at their particular school, etc. Don’t forget that during the summer many teachers do teach and also many do take extra courses, etc.
I really like morons like you who think that the teaching profession is so damned easy. You are a bloody idiot – there is no simpler way of stating your obvious lack of intelligence.
I have news for parents of any child that I will be teaching in my future Math classes… If any child of yours disrupts my classes, so the other students that want to learn cannot do so, I will simply kick your child out of my classes. No hesitation. That child will not re-enter the class until a meeting between parents and myself is arranged to discuss the reason why your child thinks it is bloody hillarious to disrupt a class. I don’t plan on putting up with your problem child, not even as a Substitute Teacher (the position I am in presently).
It is time for teachers to stand up to administrators and parents who think it’s the teacher’s responsibility to have to deal with problem students.
“Mike
I don’t see where paying someone their value is considered a liberal point of view. Seems more like common sense, which should transcend idology, and is the reason Rush and Jobs agree on this.”
Well we don’t know Steve and Rush’s commentary on this… but I was saying by paying them MORE, you would attract higher quality candidates. It’s not a free market solution, so I know Rush wouldn’t agree…
“Increase teacher pay and education will improve.”
Bullshit. Microsoft has some the highest paid executives and their high salaries hasn’t seemed to improve the quality of Microsoft products.
“Vouchers.”
Also known as “freedom”, “choice”, and “preference by performance”. People want it, NEA is dead set against it.
” (Teachers) are no longer allowed to teach, because (teachers) have to follow some curriculum to prepare students for standardized testing.”
No testing means no way to measure intelligence and academic aptitude. It astounds me that some people actually think that quality cannot be measured quantitatively and objectively.
If public schools were working well why are most universities and colleges needing to provide remedial courses for freshmen? If public schools are working well why are many businesses recruiting foreign workers? The facts are obvious, the public school system is a failing miserably.
Congressmen don’t make a whole lot of money, and baseball players make what the market bares.
Neither of which addresses the issue raised: that *productivity* determines wages. Learn to pay attention.
James:
1. Administration (the people who HIRE teachers), in most cases (my spouse is a teacher), strongly prefer that classroom issues stay in the classroom. When the administration is broken, the teacher sends the student out and the admin sends the student back, with no consequences, with the unspoken message “keep this in the classroom, we don’t want it”.
In other words, the administration, in so doing, UNDERMINES the teacher. Needless to say, the student is then emboldened and the problem gets worse, and other kids start emulating.
Of course there are some excellent administrators. And tough, good administration can quickly turn things around if tough but fair rules are applied consistently and fairly.
Standing up to the administration tends to be, ahem, a career limiting move…
2 Administration hates to go up against the parents, where, almost invariably, the inappropriate behaviour of the problem student was learned. So, the school just sucks it up and tries to ignore it.
Why does the administration hate to go up against the parents? Because the parents can easily make a huge fuss and get the school board/superintendent to lean on the administration.
So, after getting their head beat in a couple of times, the administration, except in the most extreme, obvious, well documented cases, goes really easy on parents.
Standing up to parents, except in extreme, obvious, well documented cases tends to be even more career limiting… For both admin and teachers.
3 I urge you to maintain your integrity and passion, and don’t let the system wear you down and force you to compromise unreasonably. But, the administration is not really on your side to the extent that they should be, and, parents of problem kids most emphatically aren’t on your side – in most cases, the parents of problem kids are simply grown up versions of the problem you’re encountering.
That said, education is the primary tool society has, today, to repair screwed up parenting, as well as train kids for the life in general and the workforce beyond what the parent do. And, amazingly, it works in most cases. Children are, after all, quite resilient, and a lot of dubious behaviour is about finding out what the rules really are.
4. As others have said bad teachers are part of the problem, but so is bad administration, bad oversight (school boards), bad parenting/poor school preparation, poor funding (school books, physical school buldings), inappropriate expectations (students don’t appreciate education) – there are a lot of problems.
I think firing bad teachers is a good idea if it goes along with firing bad administration, firing bad oversight (when did an elected official last get fired, say, for lying?). These 3 things would solve most of the problems, in fact.
5. The fact that society still allows schools to degrade physically, be ill equipped, teachers salaries be low suggests that society doesn’t value education as much as it should, however – there is a message there…
6. My nose is still out of joint over the fact that parents can, effectively damage their children; we may need more laws here and certainly more enforcement. This would help with problem children, although it is more of a longer term solution.
I hasten to add that if a parent is having trouble handling a child, and they ask for help (say, call a social worker), that is ok. Much better if the parent had better parenting skills and didn’t run into the problem in the first place, but that is a separate, parent training issue (where is parent training, anyway?).
What angers me is parents who damage their children and won’t listen (say, the school calls the social worker and the social worker is told to get lost).
7. A skilled teacher can spot future criminals in kindergarten, in most cases – something to think about….
Rush is such a buffoon. He’s saying that the solution to our educational system problems is to abolish unions and fire teachers – he’s clearly not kicked his prescription drug addiction. Jesus, he looks just like Boss Hog in that photo, all he needs is a white suit.
Way to razz people to get clicks, MDN…
“Neither of which addresses the issue raised: that *productivity* determines wages. Learn to pay attention.”
It addresses the point he made which was incorrect. Perhaps YOU should pay attention!
It addresses the point he made which was incorrect.
Yes, the point he made was incorrect.
wankers
Let’s examine Noble Laurate Milton Friedman’s approach – vouchers. His point was simple, education today is pure socialism – nothing more, nothing less. The government owns and operates over 95% of all k-12 schools. Worse yet, most all school districts are independent government agencies which have no realistic oversight. Worse, the boards are typically elected in off year cycles (e.g. low voter turn out), which allows the union members to dominate. Come on folks, this is a recipe for disaster. Parents have no input, no control. If you don’t believe this, try and complain about cirriculum or poor management. Schools have no Inspector General functions, no rules concerning neoptism, no process to collect the inputs of stake holders. NOTHING. Basically, the system is nothing more than a self licking ice cream cone.
As for teacher pay. Give us the facts. Average salary my ass, give us the average, the mean, and the max/mins. Let’s look at this honestly and systemically! I worked with an Air Force 2Lt would got out of the military after a year because of the pay cut he took from his former job – a shop teacher from Texas with a mere 5 years of experience – and nearly 4 months off a year. Plus, if your education college had the same reputations the one at my school had, you had to know it had very low standards. Low standards or easy ussually means low pay. Reality man. As for you folks that thinks teaching is a breeze, get over it, it is not! If you are good you will spend many hours of preparation and many more hours of grading.
Final note. Would all of you people who use personal attacks, please get a life. Actually, get an education, learn how to argue, learn how to debate honestly – personal attacks, calls to higher authorities, etc wastes everyones time.
NOT a majority of teachers in MOST states are members of ANY effective union.
Jobs and Limpbaugh have different moitvations for saying the same thing, and neither did their homework.