MacDailyNews Take: Why is that considered something that’s blowing up in Apple’s face? Why not Adobe’s face? Lynch seems more than a bit biased to us (read his full screed, link below).
The fact is that iPhone OS is Apple’s platform, Adobe. You know, like the Mac that you wrote off for dead? Whoops!
You chose your platform, Adobe. Now go decline into irrelevance along with it.
Lynch continues, “Officially, Adobe’s not talking about such actions, but there’s no question that Adobe is ticked off big time at Apple.”
MacDailyNews Take: Tough shit.
Lynch continues, “Unless things change drastically between Apple and Adobe in the next few weeks, from what I’m hearing you can expect to see Adobe taking Apple to court over the issue.”
MacDailyNews Take: Why do we get the feeling that Lynch’s big source is Lee Brimelow? If Adobe’s higher ups are really thinking about this, they’re not thinking clearly.
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: We can’t wait to hear Adobe’s legal argument, right after we hear Burger King’s lawyers argue in court that McDonald’s must be forced to offer Whoppers.
As we wrote last Friday, “[Adobe] should have focused more on Apple’s Mac instead of foolishly waiting for the platform to die and then, when it didn’t drop dead as you hoped, treating Mac users as second-class citizens while pimping inferior Windows PCs. Flash is a proprietary, resource-hogging, browser-crashing abomination and we don’t want ported software on our iPhones, iPads, or Macs; software designed for the lowest common denominator is inferior to software designed to take advantage of individual platforms’ strengths.”
Note to advertisers: (including those who advertise via third-party ad networks and become, in effect, our advertisers): Your Flash-based ads are no longer reaching the most well-heeled customers online: 50+ million iPhone owners. They’re also not hitting brand new iPad users or 35+ million iPod touch users. If you care about reaching people with discretionary income, you might want to consider dumping your flash-based ads and moving to a more open format that people with money and the will to spend it can actually see.
Help kill Adobe’s Flash:
• Ask CNBC to offer HTML5 video via the customer support web form here.
• Contact Hulu and ask them to offer HTML5 video via email:
• Ask ESPN360 to offer HTML5 video instead Flash via their feedback page here.
• Join YouTube’s HTML5 beta here.
• On Vimeo, click the “Switch to HTML5 player” link below any video.
Once again, the lawyers are the winners.
On what ground?!!! If Adobe sues, they will become the laughing stock of tech companies that can’t compete. I’ll consider company as a close relative to Palm.
Adobe can kiss my .
This is going to make things awkward the next time Steve has Adobe’s CEO on stage for an Apple Keynote Event.
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I can’t even begin to fathom what their argument will be (if this is true).
Apple can counter sue that Adobe is trying to force Apple to use a program (Flash) that seriously impairs computer performance. If Apple were an automobile it would be like Adobe demanding that Apple cars use Adobe’s wooden wheels.
Why?
What legal ground does Adobe have in forcing Apple to support Flash?
I’m confused. 😯
Lazy ass Adobe not only are OSX laggards, not only iPhone OS wannabes, and not only Apple blackmailers, but also think they can win a bitching match against Apple in court.
Piss on em.
Don’t worry Adobe,
There’s always the Joojoo. Apple doesn’t have a monopoly.
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I’m sure the Courier will materialize one of these years.
I enjoy MDN to show me what’s going on in Apple land. However, your comments in regard to this article show just how little you understand the law. It is one thing to not allow Flash to run on the iPhone for what was initialy a valid concern. (and continues to be) It is quite another to take advantage of a huge market leadership, also known as a monopoly, in the mobile device space and use it to drive a competitor out of a different space that you want to enter or that you already compete in. Apple went to far with their iPhone OS 4 agreement when they banned the use of tools like Flash CS5’s cross platform compilation features.
“Go screw yourself Adobe!!”.
Oh sorry, it looks like you already have!
You need to show how Apple’s decision is stopping Flash from being used on mobile phones or tablets. Apple’s decision only affects Apple products (unlike MS, that was dictating to other companies what they had to have on their own products).
Remember — The Official Company Line From Adobe is:
“SCREW YOU APPLE!”
They finally screamed it out from a blog but their actions have been saying it for years. You’re pretty damn gullible if you think Brimelow typed that out without approval from above. He’d have been fired by now.
1) Adobe trapped us into a $800 upgrade path. You can no longer upgrade a single title—it’s all or nothing.
2) Adobe thinks Windows 1st, Mac 2nd and they’d just as soon the platform died because they know we’d all be using Windows anyway.
3) The last ‘great improvements’ to Photoshop were layers & history. When was the last time you were truly excited about an Adobe upgrade? Um, ya— I can’t remember either.
If you own a Mac, I would think long and hard about supporting this company with your hard earned dollars. Adobe’s bloated crashtastic overpriced suite of locked down bullshit has seen the last of my money.
Great, sue away Adobe and while you’re at it, watch Apple buy you up just to quite the “static.”
The Voice of Reality,
I am no lawyer, but a huge market leadership is not a monopoly. Apparently, you don’t know much about the law either.
How can Adobe cry about no Flash on iPad, iPhone or iPod touch when, right now, there are no flash players available for these platforms.
The Voice of Reality,
It appears it’s you who is confused about the law. Apple has no monopoly. Anywhere. With anything.
Apple is also not trying to oust Flash in favour of their own product. They have no such product. Whatsoever. They want HTML5 to take the place of Flash. HTML5 is not Apples. At all.
Poor Adobe…….. Let’s see, do they offer the functions on the Mac versions that they offer on the Windows versions? Nope. Sorry, but outside of patents, you cannot dictate what other companies do or don’t do.
Go Adobe Go! I want to see Apple lose some more money on lawyer fees so they can charge more for Macs and take more from customers and increase profit to 60% lol
All the Mac heads love this idea… To give more to Apple.
I also heard that Bill Gates will sue Apple because Windows can’t be run in the iPad…
Adobe… Please, don’t be stupid
The Voice of (un)Reality writes, “It is quite another to take advantage of a huge market leadership, also known as a monopoly, in the mobile device space…”
Apple doesn’t have a monopoly, even in the smartphone space. Adobe is free to do their deals with Google, Symbian, Microsoft, their partners, et.al. And, apropos, monopolies are not inherently illegal, though acts committed in order to create or maintain a monopoly *may* be illegal. Apple has done neither. Adobe has no case.
If Jobs tried to call Adobe and work things out, he’d just be transferred to somebody in India anyway.
Jobs:
“Yes, I’d like to speak to Shantanu Narayen please.”
India Tech support:
“Thank you for calling Mr Jobs. Please, one more time, repeat your Adobe customer number and email address for me. Okay Mr Jobs, one more time please thank you , repeat your email address for me one more time please thank you. Okay yes, thank you, I think I’ve got it, it is—
S as in steve
J as in jump
O as in …
Adobe has no where to turn to.
On the left there is apple with a guard telling him to go away until he has something substantially better.
On the right, there is the big Hairy Steve Balmer from Micro$oft wanting to huge Adobe… and they have Silver light installed to finally sink Flash…
@The Voice Of Reality
What monopoly? Apple might have the mindshare of the masses, but certainly not marketshare. Nokia. RIM. Ever heard of ’em? Adobe has plenty of options if they’d like to continue developing their old, dying technology.
The Voice of Reality: I’m not sure you know the law either. The iPhone is a closed proprietary system as such Apple has the exclusive right to dictate how the platform will expand and provide it’s user’s with an interactive experience. It is not a monopoly to have a closed proprietary system. Apple has plenty of competitors in the cell phone OS space (Android, Windows 7, Symbian, etc.). Each of those too are proprietary systems, some closed some open. That’s the choice of each particular creator. Apple is saying with iPhone OS 4.0 developer agreement, that you cannot use the “development” tools made by another company to develop for Apple’s proprietary platform, in attempt to control quality and user experience. Obviously, anyone who knows anything already knows that Apple’s legal counsel has poured over the licensing agreements prior to their release. It’s clear that their counsel feels secure in making such a request. It’s up to Adobe or any other developer to go ahead and challenge that agreement. If Apple didn’t feel it had a strong position it wouldn’t have probably taken such a stance.
Good luck to anyone deciding to sue!
@ D0c
“I also heard that Bill Gates will sue Apple because Windows can’t be run in the iPad…”
I guess you missed the x86 emulation of Windows95
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I hope this war pans out positively for both companies. I need Adobe products, I work with them everyday. As much as MDN can show alternates the true fact remains that if you’re professional you’re using Illustrator and Photoshop and lately in print InDesign over Quark. That’s what the industry uses. They’re not perfect but they’re great products.
Apple’s the best platform and I’m not going to drop it anytime in the foreseeable future, but this escalating fight is just detrimental to my productivity.
@The Voice of Reality
I love hearing the monopoly BS. Do you have a clue about how much market share Apple has in the mobile arena? Do you have any idea what a monopoly is? Go get informed on the mobile market, HTML5 and Flash, then come back and talk to us. Apple has the right to control what does and doesn’t go on their platforms.
What could possibly be their legal argument here? If Apple chooses not to allow Adobe Flash on the iPhone or iPad, that’s their choice.
These ass clowns are cutting their nose to spite their faces.
600K iPads and counting. Seems likely that you’ll see a lot of HTML5-embedded sites go live in the coming months, if not weeks.
MDN Whoppers comment: BRILLIANT! LMAO!!
@MacDailyNews
Tell me what you really think.
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And don’t sugarcoat it.
Nice response, actually.
It is never a good idea to have too many enemies, however.
Apple brought Adobe into this world and Apple can take Adobe out of this world.
People have already taken Voice of Reality out behind the woodshed, so that’s done with, and the majority of blogs and articles *seem* to get it. But even people I know have thrown around “restraint of trade” and “oh oh, the DOJ will be on this” and my only response is puzzled embarassment. For them. If this was even remotely true, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony would have been sued years ago.
Obviously, Apple fans are a passionate bunch. But it seems to me that Apple’s detractors are far more prone to irrational thinking, liable as they are to believe any anti-Apple position even when it does not remotely square with reality.
Let’s be clear here folks – Apple has expressed concerns over Flash, and only Flash (to my knowledge). The rest of Creative Suite might not be fantastic, but Apple has not sought to pick on all Adobe products.
Flash has problems, problems that even Adobe has admitted to… problems on Macs and on PC’s too. A good deal of browser crashes on both platforms are due to Flash.
A monopoly in the EU is 20-25% market share. Unlawful behaviour is not having a monopoly rather than abusing a dominant market position.
It was this that allowed the EU to chase Microsoft.
Adobe:
Your ass is grass!
Go ahead make Apple’s day and join Palm and Pystar
Well, thank God nobody has suggested that “Apple should just buy Adobe” as a solution to this fracas. Yesterday’s business, this whole idea charging over a grand for a software suite. I know some people need it, but most don’t.
AS MDN helpfully points out, Pixelmator is less than $60 on OS X, and if there isn’t an iPad equivalent now, there will be, and it will cost no more than 10 bucks, put together by a couple of young’uns who will make loadsadough at that price point. That’sthe future of the software business!
Bravo Adobe!!!
Thank you for the courage to challenge MAC’s hostile assault on developers, Flash and all users of the internet. Just who the hell does MAC think they are?
Without Flash you might as well unplug the internet. Like Windows, Flash belongs everywhere. I can’t wait to see Flash content on the future Windows Phone 7 smart phones. Who will want an I-Phone then? Only the 2 or 3 MAC fangirls still standing. Buh-bye MAC.
Your potential. Our passion.™
Adobe=Pystar
@The Voice of Reality:
Apple does not have a monopoly on the mobile device market. The iPhone has less than 1/3 the smartphone market share in the U.S., if I recall recent stats correctly. Certainly nowhere near monopolistic status. Plus, there is nothing wrong with owning even 100% of the market if you don’t use your market share to unfairly prevent others from competing in the market.
Apple has made the decision not to allow Flash on its devices. Apple has given various reasons, but this is not Apple abusing its monopoly position (if it even has one, which it doesn’t). Adobe is not a competitor in the mobile devices arena. Adobe makes software which is used on websites to display various information.
Just because a product exists in the marketplace does not mean any company who wants to participate on it has the right to do so.
When Adobe builds a mobile device, let me know. Otherwise, your argument holds no water.
“… Adobe is ticked off big time at Apple (Steve Jobs).” Ok, so what? What has or is Adobe doing to win Apple (and Steve Jobs) over to the “Dark Side”?
THIS STORY IS OVER Adobe. You and Microsoft loose now!
Adobe’s representative in court;
“Yes, Your Honour, we (Adobe) did cease production of Premiere for the Mac. And yes, our Apple products do lack the features found on our Windows offerings.
And yes, despite crippling our software for the Apple platform, as well as dropping Adobe’s Apple products outright, we at a Adobe want, nay, demand, that Apple support Adobe products, and allow Adobe products on Apple’s proprietary products.
(Adobe lawyer turns to Apple lawyers, says, “So there.”, then sticks out tongue.)
But actually, I do not believe for one moment that Adobe is considering legal action against Apple.
I believe that Jim Lynch is simply another tool being used to foment dissent against Apple.
This is an opinion piece, and cites no sources or hard evidence.
This type of article is posted to give the reader the impression that Apple might be doing something wrong, that Adobe is being wronged.
Jim Lynch uses the words, “…is about to blow up in Apple’s face …”. This is Lynch’s attempt to paint Apple as undeservedly arrogant, and about to get what they deserve.
Oooo! Bad Apple!
This type of biased article is certainly nothing new from the arsenal of the slowly-shrivelling, Windows-centric industry.
Offer Whoppers at McDonalds? How about Mac OS X on a Dell? Nope, can’t force Apple to do that either…
Way back in the mid 90’s when my desktop video friends and I actually had access to Adobe co-founder and CEO, John Warnock, we petitioned and implored him to continue developing Adobe Premiere for video editing on the Mac. After all, it was the best desktop video editor available at the time. (Avid was prohibitively expensive.)
His response to our group of enthusiastic supporters? “Forget the Mac, we’re going with Windows.” We were understandably flabbergasted. We warned “You will rue the day that you abandoned your core users, Mac users!”
Well, it may have taken 15 years, but payback is a bitch.. Enjoy living in the past Dr. Warnock, because that’s the only place of relevance left for the craptastic Adobe.
Your “Note to Advertisers” is stunningly arrogant and indicative of where things have gone wrong in the Adobe v Apple debate. Why should advertisers switch to HTML5 just because that’s what Steve wants? Flash is ideal as an interactive animation tool as developer resource is plentiful and its cross browser and platform… or was until the iphone
It’s almost tempting to suggest that Apple buy Adobe, tear down all their products and rebuild them in Cocoa. I know that it doesn’t really make good business sense to do so but CS has become such a bloated warthog, it desperately needs a complete overhaul.
Alternatively, perhaps Apple should start developing their own “version” of CS – at least it would be done properly!
=:~)
The greatest irony in this whole situation is that Adobe has yet to deliver their Flash player for other mobile platforms. Neither Android, nor Web OS, Symbian, WinMob or BlackBerry have working Flash plug-ins for their mobile web browsers.
So, what Adobe says is: nevermind these other platforms, we are annoyed that Apple is kicking us out (even though we haven’t even delivered the Flash tool for iPhone yet) and we will sue!
This is just plain silly. I’m sure every one here shares the same thought: Flash should go back to its rightful place of a small, lean, web-based run-time for simple vector-based graphic animations (rather than being an OS within an OS). And everything else that does NOT need Flash should be, well not Flash. AJAX, HTML5, JavaScript and other open technologies provide plenty of muscle. Adobe should dedicate a few developers to building a DreamWeaver-like tool for development of animated, interactive multi-media content using these technologies. It would surely sell better than Flash.
“The Voice Of Reality” confirms my theory about against anyone who feels compelled to put “realist” or “reality” in their online nickname – the more compelled they feel to do this, the less likely they are to have a viewpoint which matches actual reality.
And don’t forget that Adobe *still* doesn’t have a released version of full Flash which works on mobile devices. After nearly 3 years of the iPhone’s existence. You’d think if they were *really* going to sue Apple over this, they’d actually, you know, have a mobile-ready product by now?
Hey, fix flash so that it is not a resource hogging battery drainer, and we’ll quit complaining.
Adobe: standing up for mediocrity everywhere…
Anyone els notice, and wonder how it is that in 2010 Adobe installs folders on your computer called ‘Macromedia’?
Lazy, ineffectual overpricing and, hooray that they are losing sleep over Apple…
Here’s a great take on the whole situation:
http://www.devwhy.com/blog/2010/4/12/its-all-about-the-framework.html
There are basically two important points the author makes:
1. Adobe and Apple have probably been in talks over this new Flash feature for some time. Most likely, Apple let them know very early on that they didn’t want this feature to be available and Adobe decided to go ahead with it anyway, in an attempt to force Apple’s hand. Make it public and make Apple look like the bad guy. Bad form from Adobe.
2. Apple doesn’t want Flash to be an iPhone dev tool because if it becomes popular and eventually the way that most apps are made, they become beholden to Adobe and are forced to check with them to make sure all of the Flash-based apps still work every time they want to update the OS. They don’t want to be tied that closely to Adobe.
I don’t think Adobe has much of a case here.
Of all the anti-everything not Apple fanaticism, MDN is on target big time with Adobe – a company whose arrogance approaches the Steve Jobs league.
I wish Pixelmator had as robust text creation features as Photoshop. If it did, I’d gladly clean out the lasts remnants of anything Adobe inside all my Macs!
Actually, there is nothing to stop Adobe developing a solution that “compiles” .FLA projects into SWF and HTML5 simultaneously.
Apple couldn’t stop HTML5 documents from making their way onto the iOS platform – especially after iOS4 – and it would be Adobe’s responsibility to ensure that the code generated performed efficientlyand was bug-free.
I don’t understand why this wouldn’t be practical: maybe Adobe could share their wisdom with us.
Also, Apple isn’t even close to having a monopoly position in the phone market or the portable device market. What it does have is – as MDN should point out – a dominant position in the profitable parts of those markets.
Now, if Adobe want to get up in front of a court and say “it’s not fair that we’ve got access to the segment of the marketplace that doesn’t make any money and is trying to calculate a survival plan because Apple does a better job of marketing to people who have their critical faculties intact and who are willing to pay extra for something that works”, that’s a hearing I need to be at complete with a large bucket of popcorn.
@dikkyboy
You clearly have no clue: the write once, deploy anywhere model is seriously flawed in that it encourages laziness on the part of developers – just look at Java. Flash is a great interactive animation tool but its performance, even on a Mac Pro is abysmal. HTML 5 is the way forward as it eliminates the need for plugins to play video. It also ends the reliance on having to pay through the nose for the tools required to create content.
And why the fsck do I have to visit Adobe’s website in order to change settings and preferences in Flash Player? I can think of no other program that forces this ridiculous behaviour – that’s true arrogance!
=:~)
Like so many have already tried. The argument will be, because Apple has an iPhone OS Monopoly keeping Adobe Flash off the iPhone OS is anticompetitive and is causing financial harm and damaging Adobes reputation.
But, As we know you can’t claim that a company has a monopoly in a narrow segment of a broader Market. The iPhone competes in the Cell Phone Market, The determination of a Monopoly can’t even be made at the smart Phone level Apple would have to control 90+% of the Broader market with is Cell Phones.
Adobe could not even claim that Apple has a Monopoly in the iPad market because the iPad is so new to the Market that the Market has not been defined yet. So the court would have to Rule on Broadest Market in which the device fits and competes, which would be the Personal Computer Market.
They could try the MP3 or PMP Market with the iPod touch but, does Apple hold enough of the PMP market to constitute a Monopoly and if so, how many other PMP devices run Adobe Flash, less then 1%. How many of Apples. PMP devices could run flash if it were made available? again less then 1%. The iPod touch however is a course over product a PMP player and handheld computer, so their for it does compete in the PMP space but, also competes in a broader market and Monopolies are defined by the Broadest market that a product or service competes in. For the iPod touch the broadest market it competes in is the PC Market.
Without Adobe being able to prove that monopoly anti-competitive, abuse of monopoly or even that Apple has a monopoly in anything related to harming Adobes.
@dikkyboy
suggesting HTML5 to advertisers is not “arrogant” but sound business advice… We recently remodeled our fashion e-store (which was designed entirely in flash 4 years ago) as both visits and sales had significantly dropped off over the course of the past year. If that’s where the customers are, that’s where we want to be – recipients of device giveaways are not our customers…
Just a clarification for everybody.
I submitted the story but it was written by SJVN. I think it was confusing because my email was on the submission form. Sorry for the confusion.
I am no fan of flash, by the way:
Why Flash Sucks
http://jimlynch.com/index.php/2010/04/07/why-flash-sucks/
“You need to show how Apple’s decision is stopping Flash from being used on mobile phones or tablets. Apple’s decision only affects Apple products (unlike MS, that was dictating to other companies what they had to have on their own products).”
Unlike Adobe, that *IS* trying to dictate to other companies what they have to have on their own products…
Seems like a slam dunk against Adobe to me, and I’ve only had a couple years of Law school.
@The Voice of REality:
You’re spouting nonsense, bro’.
Ford can’t required to support Chevrolet parts.
Well, at least not yet. Government Motors is struggling, so maybe “income redistribution” will be mandated…
but that is another story.
I think Pixelmator has matured enough to finally dump my copy of Photoshop…
As a mac user I want to sue Adobe for their F)($%*ing flash program and their shoddy CS4 that has ruined my workflow and reintroduced slowdowns and crashes I’ve not had in year. Good going Adobe – thanks for extorting $2500 out of me for your piggy bloatware and wasting $1000’s of my money every month with your buggy crash prone photoshop and illustrator. I wish you never bought Flash – it’s made you a crappy company.
I just counted the flash ads on this page and there only seem to be five of them. (Easy to do when you have “ClicktoFlash” installed and you see empty flash squares on the page.) On the other hand, there were 16 non-flash ads, so it seems that Adobe flash is starting to lose some advertisement real estate on web sites. Funny thing is there is an ad for Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 2 that is not flash based, but once you click on it, it takes you straight to the Adobe store that fills the screen with, you guessed it, flash.
Adope
Hello Pixelmator and GrapicConverter! Goodbye Adobe!
mmm, Whoppers.
@ Voice of Reality
Show us where Apple has a huge monopoly in the mobile space. I’ll wait while you get the info. Actually I wont because you’ll never be able to come up with the statistics. And FWIW, a monopoly isn’t illegal, just abusing it is. In which case, Apple is neither.
The only thing Apple has a monopoly on is mindshare.
If this guy is to be believed and sources inside Adobe are talking, I question their motives and so should have the author.
I remember thinking, with Bootcamp I can enjoy the best of both worlds by taking care of business on the Mac side, and then fucking off with so many games at my disposal on the Windows side.
I believe more than a few devs thought, this is great, we can continue to develop for the Windows platform and if Mac users really want our products, they can jump into Windows.
What Adobe failed to see coming is Apple would create another, more exciting platform. While Adobe sought to transform Windows into a graphics platform, thus creating an extremely profitable revenue stream.
Adobe knew the Mac platform was a lock and, to the point of almost abusing their relationship with Mac users, saw the Windows platform achieve graphics parity with the Macintosh, would begin a campaign to convince Madison Avenue that they could deploy cheaper workstations and tap into a vast pool of Windows-based workers who would do the work for much less.
But that’s the desktop platform for graphics where Adobe’s Creative Suite are the crown jewels in the media advertising empire, but holds absolutely
no quarter in the cell phone space. So, the only way Adobe can relocate into this space and continue to make money, is through advertising.
Let’s face it, the only product Adobe owns that is even remotely relevant to the technological leap going forward, is Flash.
If an airlines can refuse to carry you from point A to point B because you’re a fat gelatinous mass of shit, Apple can refuse Adobe passage on their road to the future.
Adobe, you should shed the dead weight that is Flash (in the pan) and develop something more worthy of your heritage.
You and Apple started this journey together and helped each other survive the odds, including the forces that tried to kill you in your cribs, so it would be a shame to see you resort to the government to solve your differences.
Adobe, if you want to make money in the mobile space, then be the first to develop the tools for creatives they’ll need to earn a living in the mobile space, rather than providing a select group of Flash programmers a means to create the very things most of us despise anyway; commercials!
Have you even noticed how extremely popular Click-to-Flash is becoming? The road in your future is being impeded with blockages at every turn and the message isn’t getting through. How long before Madison Avenue figures that out and begins looking at alternatives? The moment they do you will begin to slide into irrelevance, again. So why not be proactive with your future by taking it out of the hands of the government and the fickle world of marketeers and make us an offer we can’t refuse!
In the real market, it’s the consumer who is king, not the joker in the town square demanding an audience with pretenders to the throne.
First, I think we can all agree that Jim Lynch is incredibly silly in the way he typifies the possible suit, ie essentially as an Adobe win. Also, with regard to the relationship between the two companies, Apple is probably quite pleased with how things are going, since they basically gave Adobe the middle finger. Not exactly blowing up in their face.
Second, while I’ve enjoyed all the legal analysis here, the problem is not the admitted lack of expertise in the field. Rather, the problem is that we do not know the legal basis of any suit. I understand that it is tempting to speculate that it will involve abusive practices, but until the suit is out, it is just that: speculation.
Apple has been pushing this fight and is therefore likely comfortable defending their position and have confidence in their ability to win any such suit. If this goes forward, I would guess it would be a long and drawn out legal battle.
If Adobe has any case the only one I see gaining any traction is the willful desire on the part of Apple to trash Adobe’s product to anyone who will listen. I would think that no rational person would find for them but we all know juries don’t act rationally.
The trail could devastate Adobe in my view. Apple will be compelled to pay experts to demonstrate just how bad the product is and a loss could signal the death of Flash. Not smart marketing.
Adobe in my view is the party that has acted as a monopoly holder and is shocked to see the market move away. Best of luck on that one. Opening argument along the lines of “Apple has been so unfair to us. We hold a monopoly that they refuse to acknoledge. Not only that but they have the gall to tell the world how bad our product is. We intend to prove this”.
Jim Lynch,
who are you? and who cares…
ADOBE won’t sue Apple… ‘sources’ meaning you have no clue.
‘Sources’ tell me that you are a virgin who have no meaning in life but to make up stories.
Voice of Reality *does* have a point.
It could be argued that Apple has a monopoly in the MP3 market with the iPod. Having a monopoly isn’t illegal, but abusing that monopoly to unfairly eliminate competition is illegal.
It could be argued that Apple is leveraging its iPod monopoly by preventing Adobe from competing with Apple’s developer software for development on the iPod platform.
While the iPhone and iPad both use the iPhone OS and aren’t monopoly positions by Apple, they could be affected by any DOJ action. Additionally, other aspects of Apple’s business may be at risk.
Look at Microsoft and what they went through with their browser and separately with their settlement with Real Networks. The threat of this shouldn’t be taken lightly.
Apple’s position would mirror what they’ve already stated. While I agree with Apple’s stated position from a legal perspective, I’m not so sure it’s such a slam dunk that Adobe couldn’t create a huge headache and distraction for Apple. It may actually get traction and result in serious consequences even if it doesn’t get to the point of actual judgment.
Add this to all of the reasons why I wish Apple would just buy Adobe already.
I feel this report probably lacks veracity. If it is true, then Adobe management lacks a grasp on reality.
And if it is true, . . . it sounds like it’s time for a hostile takeover. I, for one, would very much like to have a more Apple-like UI with Photoshop. I would think the entire CS suite would benefit, as well.
I mean, . . . let’s get “serious!” (MDN word)
i think adobe might be in the right on this one. i mean, apple is saying to developers that they can’t create apps that are cross platform. cross platform apps are only going to support competition by forcing apple and other platform providers to constantly improve their product.
what do you guys think?
What everyone is forgetting that html 5 will be an industry standard and flash is a propriety adobe file and format.
@andymuns
Not just that. This isn’t just about the web.
Adobe’s also bitching about their new cross-compiler in CS5, which was intended to compile applications written in Flash to run on the iPhone. Adobe want developers to use that instead of writing apps in C, C++, or Objective-C, which are the languages that Apple mandates.
They can get lost, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t think anyone owes Adobe a living. I really don’t like the way they’ve been gradually taking over the web – have you seen how many Flash-only (not Flash-enhanced) websites there are? Truth is Adobe want to own the web.
Now Adobe want to own the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad software applications platform, too. Too bad. If they do sue, I hope they really come unstuck, because they deserve to.
The idea that Apple “hates” Adobe and is in a war with them is ridiculous. Apple uses pdf which they license from Adobe because it works and works well; it’s embedded in OSX. They aren’t going to use Flash because it sucks. I think it was Steve that said they had tried it on an iPad in the lab and it took the battery life down from 10 hours to 1.5 hours.
Apple doesn’t have a monopoly nor are they “abusing” their marketshare position They don’t make a competing product to Flash and aren’t trying to muscle out Flash in favor of their own which was the tactic MS used and got busted for. Apple is advocating an open source standard, html5 so the idea that Adobe can sue Apple over this is idiotic and if Adobe actually tries it, it will be a BAM (big a$$ mistake) and blow up in THEIR face; not Apple’s.
@The Voice of Reality
your point is mute
just like your intellect
more like the Squawk of Delusion…
cat got your tongue?
To Zune Tang.
Who doesn’t run a flashblocker. Advertisers using flash are only targeting users who are too stupid use one, like you. Youtube, facebook, NY1.com and Hulu and chase.com are the only sites I have whitelisted. Youtube and facebook and chase are on iPhone without flash.
@feral – I believe the word you seek is “moot”.
After Apple drives the value of Adobe down into the ground, they should buy the company and discontinue PC support. That should sell a few Macs.
@Z,
“apple is saying to developers that they can’t create apps that are cross platform”
Apple is very much *not* saying that. Just the opposite. Apple *started* iPhone development for 3rd parties by developing guidelines for webapps, which are, by nature, platform and browser independent.
Apple is saying that apps approved for their store can only use the Apple development kit and APIs. Anyone is free to develop code and resources and compile an iPhone OS app in Xcode, but port the code and resources over to another environment and produce the app for any other platform.
Apple’s reasoning for banning apps compiled using anything other than Xcode (not just Flash), is that these environments produce inferior software because when they allow for cross-platform compiling, they do so for the lowest common denominator. In my experience that is entirely true. I can’t think of any exception in history.
However, I’m not sure that’s a legally justifiable basis for abusing a monopoly position to create a barrier for competition (see my earlier post…the monopoly is the iPod, not the iPhone, and the competition is the programming tools).
It would be one thing if Apple could demonstrate that the apps produced by Flash were universally bad and detrimental across the board to the user experience of having an iPod. But I don’t think Apple could prove both. If Flash exported apps sucked, they’d just rank lower than the iFart apps in the store and devolve into oblivion by the market forces.
While it may be shown that Xcode allows for better apps, the definition is subjective as a developer may have justification for using Flash to export instead…such as experience with Flash versus no experience with Xcode and the desire to output to a variety of platforms.
A lot of people are arguing about Flash itself on the iPhone, and Apple is certainly not obligated to allow Flash itself in any way on the iPhone OS regardless of monopoly position.
Even if Flash were stable, no memory hog, etc., the one thing that would still bother me is that Adobe wants to control the GUI interface elements and behavior in a way that contradicts the Cocoa user experience.
Just look at the inconsistent way scroll bars behave. Not Mac-like. Doesn’t respond to the keyboard shortcuts that we are used to. No scrolling with the scroll ball (or if it can be done, it doesn’t happen automatically as with Cocoa developed apps).
This is in response to latest change in apple policy concerning development tools. Apple has gone too far when you start requiring everytthing to be developed Solely on apple products and development platforms. It is anticompetitive to not allow third parties to develop products on other hardware and software as long as it conforms to a specific spec on the device.
They are clearly doing this to prevent adobe from marketing their flash to html5 conversion toolset. That is just wrong. If it isn’t flash and it converts to standard code, it should be allowed. Apple is becoming a dictatorship that only wants th consumer to have what Steve Jobs wants you to have. Of course, they developed the hardware, but this is clearly a violation of the law.
Give 3Rd parties a way to distribute their apps outside of the AppStore if you want that particular clause in your agreement. But dont close out all other development platforms because you have an immature pissing match going on with another vendor. Geez. Time to grow up.
Click2flash
As Adobe will be happy to tell you, they are “ubiquitous” on the internet. Since, it is an absolute fact that Adobe Flash Player is on more computers worldwide and in the United States than iPhone OS X, there is no way that there would be a credible monopoly case. The closest thing legally I could see in this recent fight is a slander case, but since Steve has been careful to make his most vehement remarks behind closed doors, and since these remarks come to us from third-parties, they are hearsay and a slander case would amount to jack-squat.
Apple can do what it likes. It has no monopoly and needn’t worry about spurious arguments to the contrary.
Apple has told Adobe to go pound salt. End of story.
It is more likely that Apple would buy Adobe and gut the hell out of it than Adobe would launch ‘me too’ litigation against Apple now. Adobe would look foolish and petulant if they did such a thing.
I think it safe to say Apple is not interested in buying Adobe. It would, however, be fun to watch Apple take them over. No more Windows products from Adobe beyond CS5. Flash declared end of life. As Steve would say boom!
@ Zune Tang: Classic!
Hey Adobe, who needs who Now.
(Karma is a Bitch Ain’t it)
Lynch seems more than a bit biased to us… Mac Daily News is accusing someone else of being biased? Seriously? Come on, guys…
If anyone wants to know why I read Mac Daily News you can find it in the following response– “tough shit”. I couldn’t agree more. Adobe has snagged hints up long enough. Steve Jobs is ready for this fight and so am I.
@The Voice of Reality
“It is quite another to take advantage of a huge market leadership, also known as a monopoly…”
And by monopoly, you’re refering to Adobe’s FLASH here, are you not?
“…use it to drive a competitor out of a different space that you want to enter…”
And here, you’re referring to Adobe’s threat of a lawsuit…right?
-hh
the only thing apple has a monopoly on is its own product line and last time I checked my anti-trust law it is ok to restrict access to your own products to a defined set of tools that you make available to the public for virtually FREE! …ok $99…oops! less than what the Flash licenses are for the other devices! good luck with that….
…in any case, if the court case ends against apple and the judgment approaches anything large…simply buy Adobe and immediately dismantle it
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Adobe hasn’t done a dang thing since Warnock retired…I’ve used it since Illustrator88, Photoshop 1.0, etc. Think of all the toolsets that Adobe killed that put developers, illustrators, etc down the tubes….LiveMotion, Pagemaker, GoLive, etc etc…any lawsuits there?
“the only thing apple has a monopoly on is its own product line”
No, Apple has a monopoly on iPods and online music sales. It doesn’t have a monopoly with the iPhone. It’s the monopoly on iPods that would be relevant in a case with Adobe.
“As Adobe will be happy to tell you, they are “ubiquitous” on the internet.” and other similar statements…
It wouldn’t matter if Adobe was a monopoly with every product they currently sell or give away. At issue in a potential case would be does Apple have a monopoly with the iPod and are they abusing this position to eliminate competition (in this case competition with development tools)?
Adobe doesn’t have a monopoly with Flash regardless of how ubiquitous Flash content may be or however many browsers have the plugin installed. Certainly since they have yet to ship a product that competes with Xcode for development for the iPod, Adobe not only doesn’t have a monopoly in the field, they haven’t even entered it yet, but have been prevented from doing so from Apple.
“restrict access to your own products to a defined set of tools that you make available to the public for virtually FREE! …ok $99…oops!”
Actually, free makes things worse, and cheap ($99 doesn’t help). Take a look at the case against Microsoft. The two cases with the most traction were the bundling of the free media player (against Real Networks) and the way IE was installed (by default and hard to remove).
I’m not saying I like this. I’ve always hated Flash and the Flash development environment. But from a legal standpoint, I think Apple would have a hard time in court saying that they want to have the sole development kit for the iPod simply because they don’t want anyone else doing so and saying that’s not an abuse of a monopoly position with the iPod.
CS5 looks very strong. I hope to get the update soon.
Not having Flash on my iPhone is a giant pain in the neck.
I don’t care who is at fault, nor do I care what happened 20 years ago. I just want the situation rectified and I personally won’t be buying an iPad until it is.
Help kill Flash?
Why do I need Flash to view MacDailyNews site correctly ?
You apple fan boys are funny. If it wasn’t for adobe apple would have died out along time ago. The only people that used to buy apple were creatives using adobe programs and then douche bags and hippies tried to act like their creatives bought one.