As MacDailyNews reported this weekend (please see related articles below), Aliso Viejo, CA-based Net Applications announced November 2007 Operating System (and Browser) usage stats. With a new, enhanced marketshare site, Net Applications is now able to analyze global marketshare trends in much greater depth.
Net Applications now tracks more trends, summarizes OS versions better, and are now able to view market share by continent, country and even by state/province. Their new Mac OS usage map for the US provided “an immediate visual impact,” Net Applications ask in their December 1st Newsletter.
Net Applications writes, “Higher percentage Mac usage states almost perfectly match up with states that typically vote for Democrats. So, do Democrats prefer Macs? The correlation is striking.”
2004 US presidential election results by state:
(red=Republican, blue=Democrat)
2004 US presidential election results by county:
(red=Republican, blue=Democrat)
Meanwhile, the Mac continues to gain ground in Net Applications measurements of online share. November 2007 usage statistics show that globally, 6.8% of all computers online are Macs. That is the highest percentage Net Applications has seen to date.
More info via Net Applications’ report – “Democrats Vote for the Mac?” – here.
MacDailyNews Note: For what it’s worth:
Apple’s U.S. Retail Store Locations:
Also, via Wikipedia:
Prior to the 2000 presidential election, there was no universally recognized color scheme to represent political parties in the USA. The practice of using colors to represent parties on electoral maps dates back at least as far as the 1950s, when such a format was employed within the Hammond series of historical atlases. Color-based schemes became more widespread with the adoption of color television in the 1960s and nearly ubiquitous with the advent of color in newspapers. A three-color scheme — red, white and blue, the colors of the U.S. flag — makes sense, and the third color, white, is useful in depicting maps showing states that are “undecided” in the polls and in election-night television coverage.
Early on, the most common—though again, not universal—color scheme was to use red for Democrats and blue for Republicans. This was the color scheme employed by NBC—David Brinkley famously referred to the 1984 map showing Reagan’s 49-state landslide as a “sea of blue”, but this color scheme was also employed by most newsmagazines. CBS during this same period, however, used the opposite scheme—blue for Democrats, red for Republicans. ABC was less consistent than its elder network brothers; in at least two presidential elections during this time before the emergence of cable news outlets, ABC used yellow for one major party and blue for the other. As late as 1996, there was still no universal association of one color with one party. If anything, the majority of outlets in 1996 were using blue for the GOP and red for the Democrats.[citation needed]
But in 2000, for the first time, all major electronic media outlets used the same colors for each party: Red for Republicans, blue for Democrats. Partly as a result of this near-universal color-coding, the terms Red States and Blue States entered popular usage in the weeks following the 2000 presidential election…
The choice of colors in this divide is counter-intuitive to many international observers, as throughout the world, red is commonly the designated color for parties representing labor, socialist, and/or liberal interests, which in the United States would be more closely correlated with the Democratic Party. Similarly, blue is used in these countries to depict conservative parties which in the case of the United States would be a color more suitable for the Republicans.
More here.
The verbal equivalent of
• Pull pin
• Drop grenade
• See what happens…..
Oooooh, click-bait!
Speaking as a Brit, I’m going to get some popcorn and wait to see how this one turns out.
I am a fiscal conservative and a social it’s none of my business. Maybe I am a libertarian and I don’t know it yet?
I prefer macs because they save me money in the long run and the UI is intuitive.
There is another correlation to be considered. Those “blue” states also have higher levels of income and education than the “red” states.
It strikes me as ironic that conservative, Republican leaning states are called Reds.
It think that it has probably more to do with personal income than political preferences, though both are also related.
Yeah like there’s such a difference between to the two party’s.
Pick your poison America.
Hmm..
Mom: Democrat, mac
Dad: BIG democrat, PC
Brother1: Republican, PC
Brother2: Democrat, PC
Me: Independent, mac
Wife: Democrat, mac
Based on my small study, I see no correlation between Democrats and Mac use.
HOWEVER, I think you might find a correlation between mac users and wealth… and I think someone did this study once. If you look on that map, the richer states use macs more than the poorer states. It just so happens that poor states usually vote Republican.
In brief –> Mac user : wealth : Democrat
Whenever you see a Democrat using a Mac, you know right away that this is the only thing they actually do understand.
Actually it reflects percentage of population usage. States with large metro areas are going to have larger percentages of users than more rural states. It has nothing to do with politics, it has everything to do with where the most people live.
Maybe the Republican in me likes macs because they save me money and the Democrat in me like macs because they are beautiful and easy?
Why do we have to be one or the other?
Injecting political affiliation into the discussion of who’s using Macs is a worthless effort. With few exceptions Mac usage density parallels population density, and the location of Apple Stores.
MDN must be hard up for real news to resort to this kind of nonsensical fluff.
Gee, Librium. Try joining the Proofreading Party. You could use the initiation rites. (And DO keep being so very cynical about everything in life; it makes you appear to be so very much better than you really are.)
Dont’ be an idiot. The state by state distribution of welfare, taxes, and alcoholism rates look very similar.
It’s tough having a red govenor in a blue state, but we are much the better for it!
Gregg,
Thanks for injecting some sense into this nonsense.
Smart people prefer macs.
All are welcome!!!!
red blue
its all green
I think Mac users are younger…and Younger people tend to be more liberal than their older counterparts.
So in that way…I guess there could be a connection.
I’m the small dot on the far bottom left. The truth is I’m far right. I’m soon to be 75. iPhones rule.
Pat Buchanan for Prez.
This will easily become a 200+ post thread by day’s end.
Gregg Thurman,
Before you ignorantly criticize, click the link provided: Net Applications, not MacDailyNews, drew the correlation and posed the question, “Do Democrats prefer Apple Macs?”
@ Gregg: Right on!
Although it doesn’t bother me that MDN brought this to our attention. I saw it yesterday and want to comment to Net Applications.
What concerns me is that Net Applications is willing to make this extremely wild speculation of some sort of correlation based on one guy’s mindset. Net Applications should be ashamed of itself published such amateurish dribble. I guess they’re only good at reporting numbers counted up by software, not at doing real analysis.
That’s a lot of red!
http://www.joinrudy2008.com/
“Oooooh, click-bait!
Speaking as a Brit, I’m going to get some popcorn and wait to see how this one turns out.”
This is going to be FUN! I am going to open a beer can too
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That is the way it should be. Democrats are pro-education. Macs are also pro-education.
Most of the people who I know of that use macs are Democrat.
Also, the most politically active and powerful people on campus use macs.
Rudy2008,
You’re right, that sure is a lot of red! Too bad your home state is the wrong color!
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http://www.johnmccain.com/
Interesting that from the onset of color TV and through the Reagan days the Republicans were identified on these maps as blue. Somewhere during the Clinton days the main-stream media decided they wanted the Democrats to be blue. They now play if off as always being the way it is now.
Interesting that from the onset of color TV and through the Reagan days the Republicans were identified on these maps as blue. Somewhere during the Clinton days the main-stream media decided they wanted the Democrats to be blue. They now play if off as always being the way it is now.
Interesting that from the onset of color TV and through the Reagan days the Republicans were identified on these maps as blue. Somewhere during the Clinton days the main-stream media decided they wanted the Democrats to be blue. They now play if off as always being the way it is now.
Interesting that from the onset of color TV and through the Reagan days the Republicans were identified on these maps as blue. Somewhere during the Clinton days the main-stream media decided they wanted the Democrats to be blue. They now play if off as always being the way it is now.
Interesting that from the onset of color TV and through the Reagan days the Republicans were identified on these maps as blue. Somewhere during the Clinton days the main-stream media decided they wanted the Democrats to be blue. They now play if off as always being the way it is now.
Mac users tend to respect themselves more.
PC users will buy something that makes them waste endless effort until they give up on getting half the features to work, but then tell themselves that at least they saved $100 by not getting a mac. (Often ignoring the extra stuff they had to buy.)
Mac users take a broader view of the situation. We understand that their time is valuable, and a machine that just works means more time doing your job or raising your kids.
This broader view view of life is also correlated with wealth, and perhaps seeing through some of the political stunts that politicians pull.
Short view: We lowered taxes!
Broader view: Never mind that 6x the money you saved on taxes went into gas prices, as long as the government goes into debt everything is fine!)
Isn’t it strange that the younger you are the more you rely on parents and the state to take care of you. So you vote for the liberal agenda.
The older you get the less you enjoy paying everybody else’s bills so you vote for the conservative agenda.
I wonder why that is? I think that if we taxed the young more, they would smarten up sooner.
So it looks like Vermont and Hawaii have the highest Mac marketshare. I would have never guessed either..
As far as the political correlation, I’d say it’s complete rubbish. It has much more to do with income level and education.
Five pages?
I’ll look forward to calling Towertone various slurs, including “racist”, “fascist”, “stupid American”, etc. etc.. And it’s not even my country!
I am most of my family are Conservative Republicans.
We are also smart enough to all have Macs, one per person. (I’m not counting iPods, etc.)
Income plays a big role but level of intelligence plays a bigger role. But its not always a hard and fast rule and there are always exceptions. Look at George Bush, he has money and uses a Mac.
Of course they do!!! It makes them more efficient at taxing and spending us to death.
Well, duh. While there’s merit to the argument that the figures reflect population density I don’t think there’s any doubt that Mac users as a whole have more liberal political values than PC users as a whole.
Knee-jerk insistence that there couldn’t be a political component reminds me a lot of those tech columnists who still keep insisting that there are no real usability differences between the mac and pc.
Just because you want it to be true, doesn’t mean it is.
BTW, Rush Limbaugh uses a Mac..
This doesn’t jibe with the recent Gallup poll, that Republicans find themselves with better mental health than do Democrats:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/102943/Republicans-Report-Much-Better-Mental-Health-Than-Others.aspx
But that can’t be if they are Windows users. Discuss.
@Big Al
“The older you get the less you enjoy paying everybody else’s bills so you vote for the conservative agenda.”
Your a fscking idiot Big Al. 12 Billion a month for Bush’s war on a nation that had nothing to do with 9-11, lack of oversight on financial institutions so the U.S. economy and middle class retirements get flushed with sub-prime loans, and it is the the rich that get tax breaks and the middle class that gets stuck with the tax bill. The “failed conservative agenda” is what you mean.
Hey- someone had to end these courteous comments.
@ Smith,
“Maybe the Republican in me likes macs because they save me money and…”
Republicans and saving money has been a misnomer since Regan was in office. Do you realize that Bush has spent more of the taxpayers money than ALL presidents combined in history? Most of it going to the illegal occupation of Iraq. Did you know that Clinton actually had balanced the budget during his term?
Do Democrats prefer Apple Macs?
Although there are some correlations, there isn’t enough to justify that hypnosis based upon the limited presented data.
For instance the people living in those highlighted areas tend to have more disposable income and/or more technologically oriented.
I saw Al Gores Movie, It the film, his powerbook was always visible or in his hand most of the time.
( I think it was a PowerBook since I didn’t see the iSight Camera, and it was plugged into the old power cord )
I’m in Connecticut, and a student. My college has is 95% PC but the do have about 20 New iMacs.
And when I was in Florida,up to 9th grade, every computer was all Mac. My old highschool there only had like 10 PC’s in the media center, and nobody used them cause they were always infected and slow.
As Beryllium said first above this is likely nothing to do with political affiliation. The Mac usage map and the political party preference map are the result of the same underlying cause, which is *education*.
Areas of smart, educated, sophisticated people both use Macs and vote Democrat. Areas of dumb-ass country folk who believe everything they hear on the “TeeVee,” … vote Republican and use Windows.
It’s about IQ and sophistication only.
I don’t understand what this has to do with politics.
If you instead did a gradient map based on Gross State Product (GSP) per capita, it would probably match up even better with the Mac share map.
Clearly people in more developed (economically, and almost surely technologically as well) states prefer Mac. Is this a big surprise?
Going forward, which group of states do you think is a better indicator of technology trends, California, New York, Massachusetts, and Washington (where Mac OS is relatively strong), or Alabama, Mississippi, and West Virginia (where Mac OS is relatively weak)?
I think that it correlates more with education and income.
Grandpa,
If I’m a “fscking idiot,” but at least know how to properly use “you’re,” then you must be really bad off.
“The older you get the less you enjoy paying everybody else’s bills so you vote for the conservative agenda.”
It’s not all about money dude.
@Ampar…
“Five pages?”
Nah… WAY too early in the political season for five pages. Three maybe.
Oh ToweTone! Oh TowerTone!
Oh where art thou and thy bigotted comments, TowerTone?
They could quite easily do a regression analysis and make a real comparison. Just looking at two maps, where the Apple penetration map shows little differentiation does nothing to prove anything. Crap, Oregon barely went dem last time, and the same with New Hampshire, and yet they are two of the strongest Mac percentages.
The only obvious states that jump out are California and New York. Then again, Apple stores tend to congregate around urban population centers, as does the Democratic electoral strategy.
An apparent correlation means little without detailed analysis. For instance, there is no direct data on computer ownership versus political affiliation.
There are many possible variables contributing to the apparent correlation. One that comes to mind is disposable income concentrated in the northeast and along the west coast. Besides, if the map were to change drastically in the next election, the political explanation for the Mac usage correlation would be invalidated.
Mac purchases are more related to the ability to think for oneself a necessary element of which is to question authoritative sources. This is also essential to being creative and helps with earning money. Democrats of course are more likely to question authority than Republicans. In general terms it is all related although there are of course millions of exceptions in particular many Democrats don’t like Apple because they perceive their products as elitist.
Last IQ map I saw of the US was similar to the above, essentially higher around the edges, overall pale though compared to the IQ map of China.
Put together these elements and the chances of being a Mac user will be high:
Creative (artistic/business innovation)
Earns a decent salary
IQ top 30%
Democrat
Oh my God…..
Does this mean that I’m a Democrat?
(and shouldn’t this have been posted on a Friday?)
Wow, no wonder why the cliches of Mac users being condescending elistist snobs are perpetuated; just listen to the commenters and MacDailyNews writers in the last day:
Jeremy:
“Areas of dumb-ass country folk who believe everything they hear on the “TeeVee,” … vote Republican and use Windows.
It’s about IQ and sophistication only.”
MacDailyNews:
“Any random blue-vested circus freak trying to push Dells onto the mouthbreathers in Wal-Mart could have told us as much, thanks.”
(http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/15672/)
Feel the love.
Gandalf
I.Q. or education?
Big difference.
There is not always a correlation.
I hope that didn’t confuse you…..
Not this debate again! Ugh.
We’re all brothers and sisters under the aluminum skin aren’t we?
A Republican Mac user from NY.
All I know is that ever since Bush won, I’ve been in a real blue state.
I don’t know, if democrats are more likely to be Apple owners, but….
Rush Limbaugh
Glenn Beck
George Bush
are all Mac users.
The Mac-leaning states tend to be the ones with denser populations, thus requiring better network security (read: Mac). How much network security do you need on your computer, if you’re in the middle of a Kansas wheat field?
I’m a conservative Republican and I have never voted democrat.
I have a masters degree and do pretty well financially. (For SC that is)
I have NEVER owned a PC.
Make of it what you will
Does anyone seriously listen to what Glen Beck says? I mean really?
Well… guess what: wisdom won’t ever be a matter of what computer you use… lol
Can’t we all Mac along?
@Big Al
You’re right Al- I am bad off. I guess I could blame my typos on my public education, or maybe my lack of medical insurance so I can’t buy the meds I need to keep my mind “right” and stop these old hands from shaking, the drool from running out of my mouth and onto my Apple keyboard. But my main point is that not everyone who grows old also turns conservative. I owned an Apple IIe and I still listen to Led Zeppelin on my iPod, and I still hope that the future will have less lies and a better distribution of wealth to hard working people.
Now it’s lunch time and time for me to go open a can of dog food for myself- there are a lot of us older folk who can only afford pet food. Thank goodness for those brands with little cheesy bits. Older people have a natural craving for cheese!
@Grandpa,
You use a Mac, but eat dog food?! You’re values are out of whack!
(And I did use “you’re” correctly.)
WHOOPS! I meant “your”! LOL
Democrats are for the BCS and Republicans want an NCAA playoffs!
I’m not as think as you drunk I am, Officer!
MainMan… now with 3 kinds of irony!
@ChrissyOne
Yeah… I think I’m done with this one now.
Jim – TIV: “Nah… WAY too early in the political season for five pages. Three maybe.”
I’m sticking with five. There hasn’t been a good, long angerfest here in awhile.
“Oooooh, click-bait!
Speaking as a Brit, I’m going to get some popcorn and wait to see how this one turns out”
ROTFLMAO!!
(there are a few Canadians watching this as well
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@ auren
Many of us yanks actually sit back and laugh at the whole process, too. We use politics to identify people we wish to avoid.
That’s a population/money map more than anything else. Where you find a high population with lots of money (the first round of Apple Stores were built in areas with a median income of $300,000), you’ve found a group of people for whom dropping all their investment on Windows and rebuying Mac (switching) is not as much of a financial decision. Also, you’re likely to find a high number of people who don’t own computers (think households with several members becoming a “teen” over the next 10-12 years) who also have the resources to pick a platform based on desire instead of financial ability.
Not saying that Macs are particularly more expensive than comparitively configured PC’s, but that if you’re looking for places where people have money to buy your product, these are the areas you’re going to look first and foremost.
“(there are a few Canadians watching this as well”
And a few from Down Under.
Two hours and we’re at two pages. This should be a good one.
I’d love to stir this pot a little more, however as a Canuck I’ll just watch. One thing that always comes through in these types of “dialogues” is how Repulicans or those right of centre (note the Canadian spelling) always fall back on the old tax argument. It’s the same here with our Conservative party. They are going to give us a “big” tax cut which will net me about $100. However, those who are very very wealthy will save a considerable amount more. But this will all trickle down won’t it. Hahahahaha!!
Bush is anything but fiscally responsible and our Prime Minister is a huge fan of Senior Bush’s.
Hope my spelling and puncuation meet your standards “Big Al”.
“I’m not as think as you drunk I am, Officer!”
Don’t you mean “ossifer”?
Well maybe I stirred it just a bit.
MDN a little short on their hit quota last week?
Ron Paul 2008!!!
“Ron Paul 2008!!!”
Mrs. Paul’s for Dinner!!!
‘been spending a lot of time trolling Fred’s site, looking for evidence.
It’s with reassuring demagoguery that I say “An Alien for these troubled times.”
Fred is definitely from off-planet.
What happened to Alaska and Hawaii on the election maps? No space?
Any Republican using a Mac is trying to fool someone. Either themselves or those around them. (This is BS, but I am weak and just couldn’t resist. I hate labels.)
OBTW, there is a stronger correlation between red states and out of wedlock births and divorce rates than to PC use. Ironic isn’t it?
If more Republicans were like Ahnold, the country wouldn’t need Democrats so badly. Unfortunately the current Republican administration has shown the true colors of the Republican party. Unfettered government with no fiscal responsibility and no accountability. How can we hope this situation will turn out well. Cheney said it all “Go fsck yourself”
Liberty!
Are the red parts where the retarded people live?
Aside:
Your map of Apple Retail Store Locations is out of date. The one in Birmingham, AL was left out.
To the point:
It is also worth mentioning that the county the Alabama store is located in (Jefferson) typically votes democrat. Maybe the article has it backwards. Could Apple be targeting high concentrations of democrats to open their stores?
It’s an interesting day when Anonymous has the most salient insight. Let’s analyze all of the FUD flying around.
1) Do you think that Network Analysis has a hold on the absolute truth? What methods did they use? Did they survey your browser?
2) If Apple sells primarily to Democrats, then you’d think that Apple would be losing their shirt in Texas and Florida. But they’re not. So something doesn’t jive.
3) Of the Mac users I know, one is a socialist, one is a liberal, and three are conservatives. Of the PC users I know, one is a conservative Democrat, one is a centrist, one is a liberal, and three are conservatives. What does this mean? It means that computer and OS use is linked primarily to understanding the value of better OS design. Some liberals get it. Some conservatives get it. Most people are still asleep.
Me: Republican, Mac
@Quad Core
Rush Limbaugh
Glenn Beck
George Bush
..are all Mac users.
Because Macs are for creative types, and PCs are for the sheep who follow them.
Republican. And I live within 15 miles of three Apple retail stores.
“Those “blue” states also have higher levels of income and education than the “red” states.”
ahh red states, our very own third world nations, right here at home.
Of course democrats prefer macs! They are smarter, understand the idea of “long-term” investments (education, healthcare), and don’t fall for that Wal-Mart PC cheepo crap!
“Income plays a big role but level of intelligence plays a bigger role.”
Studies prove time and again that Intelligence and being a Democrat are inversely correlated, as are wealth and being a Democrat.
Sanks for da hep, Ampar! I love you, man!
To MainMan:
No problem! And I told our waitress to give you the bar tab and to take your keys.
“Do Democrats prefer Apple Macs?”
Yes, and Republicans prefer cherry dames…..
People you have it all WRONG!!! Beautiful women and handsome guys ALL use macs. That is the true link.
Tell me I am wrong.
So this means that, by the numbers, in the US population there are between 5-10% Democrats and so on. This does not work out right. Go figure, stats can be manipulated to mean anything you want.
Kerry, for sure, uses BOTH Macs and PCs. Ha!
,,,,and Ampar…5 pages ? No way. Its early in the Xmas season and people have Xmas spirit. If this was in the week before Xmas…ha! Xmas spirit my commercial ass! Get out of the way, there is a frikken sale damnit. Must be all PC owning republicans here at WalMart.
Heh heh heh
+
Republican and own 3 Intel Macs 1 PPC
+
It’s really easy:
Republicans= Me me me, money for me, short-sighted, Now now now.
Democrats= Me AND others, social capital, future can be better
Do an overlay based on education level and I’m guessing you’ll see an even more decisive correlation.
Let’s be real about this political thing. Given the growth of government spending under the republicans, it’s now conclusive that both parties due verily sucketh. As in.
“How much did you make last year? Give it to me.”
Jeff
If you think it is that easy, then it is you, not the platforms, that is simple.
It is a shame to get Apple even mentioned in politics. Remember what happened to the Pepsi guy and Steve Jobs? A great company like Apple is an envy by everyone in the world.
Macronancy – It’s not all about money dude.
Yes it is. You’ll understand when you’re a bit drier behind the ears.
Republicans just aren’t funny. Other than funny in the mean, petty way that Rush is. I can only think of one funny living Republican and that is P.J. O’Rourke. They just don’t do funny well.
P.J. O’Rourke is one of the funniest humans ever. And I’m including Pliny the Elder.
Hey, TowerTone, do you think Frank and Eddie are the same person?
Buster: O.K., but Happy Hannukah to you and everyone!
@Ampar…was trying to throw a bit of fuel on the fire but alas I doubt it will work.
I do agree with Asian watcher in that it seems silly to get Apple and politics dragged into a discussion. I think that anyone with a modicum of intelligence, that has had a reasonable exposure to a Mac will either switch or at least appreciate their value. I have seen this time and time again and I am sure most here have as well.
Now a link between republicans/democrats and tickle me Elmo’s…now there is something worth a discussion.
I think it’s in Republican Party Reptile, where he’s talking about pickup trucks… I seriously had internal bleeding by the time he got to “…spin all four wheels axle-deep in the mud, instead of just two..”
AAMOF, I think I’ll read that again. The weather in Seattle at the moment is enough to get Richard Simmons down.
“Jeff” said on Dec 03, 07 – 05:57 pm:
“It’s really easy:
Republicans= Me me me, money for me, short-sighted, Now now now.
Democrats= Me AND others, social capital, future can be better”
Yep… you are right. It IS easy to be compassionate when it’s not your money to spend.
p.s. This topic is boring.
There is a correlation, http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2004/12/3/11290/0220, but I don’t think that this story necessarily shows that.
I sense a party at Buster’s place! Can we bring our own hookers?
And have some skank-ass working my party?
I have got to party with ChrissyOne.
“do you think Frank and Eddie are the same person?”
I don’t think Frank is Frank, but rather an amalgamation of anxiety proffered upon us to prolong or intensify for entertainment the remedial concept that I can gain from the knowledge they possess, but which they cannot extend, due to my inability to grasp the complexities of their enlightenment.
And who da fsck is Eddie?
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“I have got to party with ChrissyOne.”
Reminds me of an old saying…..
Two is company
Three and a half is a crowd!
It IS easy to be compassionate when it’s not your money to spend.
What exactly makes it yours? If you’re a wage slave, it’s never really your money anyway, you’re just holding it temporarily for the corporations that surround you. If you’re in the top half of the top 1%, well, the money isn’t coming in off of any hard work, it’s all coming from supplying capital.
So if Carlton supplies the money for Wesley to run a plant where Brad manages twenty Mexicans who create a million widgets which Britney and Scarlette sell through a retail outlet (that Carlton bought from Thurston three years ago), who “deserves” the revenue from all the widgets and by what proportions? Carlton says, “well, I supplied the capital, without that, none of this would have happened.” Wesley says, “well, I managed the plant that produced the widgets which created all the revenue, without that function, none of this could have happened.” Brad says, “well, I smuggled in and managed the workers who produced the widgets, without that function, nothing would have been done.” The twenty Mexicans say, “Well, we made the widgets, without us, you wouldn’t be selling many widgets.” Britney and Scarlette say, “Like duh! It was our inherent hotitude and complete lack of morals that sold those widgets, without us, there would be no revenue.”
What this demonstrates is that labor is not the determining value in this equation of revenue redistribution. Since we all know how this redistribution goes, the obvious determining factor is scarcity of functional suppliers. Britney, Scarlette and the twenty Mexicans are completely replaceable. Brad and Wesley are a little more skilled so there will be a lot less available replacement labor in the market. Still replaceable, but doing so may have some detrimental effects. Obviously, the rarest commodity in this humans-as-mathematically-valued-cogs evaluation is Carlton.
Why are money suppliers so rare? Simple: capital is attracted to capital.
This pretty much rigs it for the rich. They will always be rare because of their compulsion to hoard control over money and the laws that enable them ensure it.
Your homework for tonight will be to, first: castigate yourself for your bullshit response; and second: write a 5,000 word essay examining the correlations between this kind of capital theory and the theory of general relativity.
The fun begins at 8.
Well, across the entire suck-ass equal-opportunity-whore-both-take-money-from-tobacco-companies-2 party system, one candidate stands way above the rest, in my view.
That man’s name, is,
Joe Biden.
AR
No one that participates in the system is above that system.
Effword
I have a better idea. Read both Walter Isaacson’s “Einstein” and Thomas Sowell’s “Basic Economics”.
Let me give you a small example, as digested by my talent as a simpleton.
You have $100.00 dollars to last you and your family through the week. You need gas, food, and a few items to get you till payday.
You go to the self serve gas station to save on the gas, thereby maximizing your buying power. You then go to the farmers market to get some fresh vegetables, and stop by a supermarket to get some hamburger meat that is on sale. While you are there, to save time, you pick up some soap and toothpaste.
Now, according to your analogy, only on a smaller scale, you have just cheated several people out of their livelihood, just to line your greedy pocket.
What about the kid working for less than minimum wage at the service station? The butcher, who owns his own shop? The dry goods store, a staple of the community for years? HOW CAN YOU BE SO SELFISH?????
You just spent more money than most of the people in the world get in a month, you rich, arrogant, heartless, greedy self serving bastard! And all just because YOU want to feed YOUR family and have a way to go to work. What did you give to the poor? Why do you, and you alone, have domain over the money you “blow”?
The thing is, effword, that the term “rich” is relative to its surrounding. The more you make, the less time it takes for OTHERS to decide how you should spend it. I hope you have seen the light….And if this doesn’t apply to you as your theory applies to larger bodies, then you have proven that there is no chance for a unified field theory!
@C1
I nominate your place for the party. Ampar is bringing the hookers. What can I bring?
Fiscal and religious conservative. Unix programer, Newton programer. Mac user since 1988. Mac’s have the better OS. Just wish there were more professional finance/stock trader programs – still have to use Parallels/XP for my trading platform.
Conservative for life. 3 iPods, iPhone, iBook, Powerbook, Airport Extreme, Apple tv. It’s just that conservatives dont walk around bragging about what we have.
What exactly makes it yours? If you’re a wage slave, it’s never really your money anyway, you’re just holding it temporarily for the corporations that surround you.
I earn my money and I spend it. I choose how much and where it goes. I reward different corporations (or non-corporations, mind you) based on what I perceive to be the best value. I also choose my charities, which is much more compassionate than inefficient, wasteful and anonymous government welfare/subsidy programs.
“Profit” is not a dirty word.
p.s. This topic is still boring. (unsubscribed from thread; email me if you really feel the need)
I guess if someone really does feel the need my email is public1@hazmatt.net. I forgot that, with this new MDN registration thing my name isn’t an email link anymore.
Have fun with the politics everyone!
Grew up conservative, nevertheless I was bright and bought my first Mac in Feb 1984 (intimation of hidden future intelligence). Went off to one of the most conservative colleges in the country- but I studied philosophy and learned how to think, studied sociology and learned how our society/culture grew in the past and how it acts now, and studied political science . . . and got sick to my stomach of our two party system. I HATE both parties, but I hate the left 1 % less. That’s how education made me a democrat.
The only thing I can say is that there are Americans,and then there are Democrats.
[I HATE both parties, but I hate the left 1 % less.]
Brilliant.
FWIW, I hate Windows 99% more.
I take it back Ampar… it just might make 5 pages after all. Especially if we post pics of the party at C1’s place.
This is my happening, and it freaks me out!!!
Democrats and Macs in the same sentence make me want to hurl! There can be no greater opposites! And, in this case, opposites do NOT attract!
I don’t think either Democrat-Republican rivalry or pictures of ChrissyOne’s party will get Ampar his five pages.
We need some more provocation. How about gun control? Are Mac users more likely to own hand guns?
And incidentally Ampar, last time Buster, TowerTone, et al. wasted away waiting for you on page 7.
I know I shouldn’t get involved and that only a fool takes up a fool’s argument.
Democrats and Macs in the same sentence make me want to hurl! There can be no greater opposites!
And yet the company is run by an avowed Democrat and nearly died when he wasn’t around. And it also has a prominent Democrat (sadly retired from full-time politics) on the board.
You must be really conflicted every time you boot up.
Here’s a survey that’s worth doing: what percentage of the people who develop the Macintosh (both hardware and software) vote Dem? If it’s more than 55%, will iMaki go and use Windows because it offends his/her personal sensibilities?
Probably not, because not even a Republican can be that stupid. Surely.
“And incidentally Ampar, last time Buster, TowerTone, et al. wasted away waiting for you on page 7.”
I find that hard to believe. Those guys are huge.
You have $100.00 dollars to last you and your family through the week.
You can’t so easily dismiss the scale. The scale is everything. Your paltry $100 example is nothing in the scope of money. Spending $100 around several retail outlets is not supplying capital. If an atomic unit of this system is a billion dollars, your $100 doesn’t ever come into consideration except as some part of a larger probability field. But I didn’t want to get into analogies to quantum physics or some phantom unified field theory. The homework was related to general relativity. Now get to work or I’ll fail you.
Now, according to your analogy, only on a smaller scale, you have just cheated several people out of their livelihood, just to line your greedy pocket.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to get at here. Nowhere in the above example do I imply that Carlton is cheating anyone of their livelihoods. It also doesn’t make sense that my small contribution to the revenue of a supermarket would somehow represent some repression of livelihood since such revenue is directly related to it.
the term “rich” is relative to its surrounding.
Seriously, this is just coy bullshit. I’m not talking about indoor plumbing and plasma teevees as representations of wealth. I’m also not concerned with “what is rich.” I’m talking about the flow of capital and its relationship to the justifications behind such petty and childish assertions as “No! Mine! Whaaa!”
“Profit” is not a dirty word.
I never said it was. Of course, every major religion has, but that’s neither here nor there.
I also think it’s quaint how you think you choose much of anything. And then call remitting what you owe a “reward.” That’s so cute.
Yer a good friend, Ampar. I love partying with you, man!
Well, lookee here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/science/04obchim.html?ref=science
Seems like there’s hope for TowerTone after all.
And for those other Republican monkeys as well.
Another interesting fact, which many Americans will deny, is that more than any other population, Americans trust and believe the propaganda their governments spew out. In no other country do the majority of people believe the propaganda given to them. In the USA, however, people lap it up and ask for more.
In no other country would a government be able to invade a country on such false premises, and then change the premises in mid-flight, change the facts to support the premise, and have the people still rally around them in support, believing their re-rationalisations. Yet this is exactly what happened in the USA with their invasion of Iraq. Only Americans would stoop to such gullibility and take every everything their government (and their propaganda outlets such as Fox News) proclaims at face value.
I’m guessing it’s because “critical thought” in American has been taught to mean two opposing positions, rather than serious analysis.
The USA is a leader in the world for one reason only: it has a monopoly on violence. It kills whomever it wants to kill, whenever, and will not heed any opposition. I will be happy when your army finally gets exhausted and your country finally goes into the toilet at the end of your stupid war, and other more developed and rational populations can begin to lead the world, without violence.
“it has a monopoly on violence”
Pitch an idea to Steve Ballmer and you might rethink that statement.
“Seems like there’s hope for TowerTone after all.”
Yes, and it floats. Who knew Forest Whitaker could direct?
“Americans trust and believe the propaganda their governments spew out”
Very true. And they really hate to be confronted with this fact. America has become a country of sheep locked in an eternal game of good-cop, bad-cop. Petty politics is the new blood sport, designed to pacify an intellectually bankrupt audience and distract attention from those who actually hold and exercise power, while creating the army of cheer-leaders and attack dogs, ready to fight to the death for a red or blue vote.
@Ampar
What a stupid response. Are you so glib about your country’s vicious and violent practices around the world, its abuse of power, its corruption and psychopathic behaviour because you’re ignorant or because you just don’t have to care? I imagine it’s a bit of both.
It sure is odd, Frank, that you don’t have a registered name.
Or more likely, that you don’t use it.
It would be less of a surprise than you think, to “come out”.
So shed your alter ego, and let everyone know who they are dealing with.
An why o why, dear TowerTone, would you want that? Hm? What does it matter to you? Aren’t there more important things to think about, such as how your government is hoodwinking you into killing hundreds of thousands across the world? All your politicians have to do is spout the word “Freedom” and you lap it up. No, you don’t care about that, because you don’t have to care. To you, it’s just some weird looking, weird talking, foreigners getting killed, some subhumans who just were too stupid or unfortunate to stay in their own country, instead of enjoying the “freeness” of the USofA. Deny it all you want, but you know it’s true. Tell me where you’ve been around the world. We both know you’ve stayed in your insular USA, not bothering to step outside and see the world for what it really is. To you, anything to know about the outside world is what Fox News or CNN is for. You know jack shit about the world, yet it’s because of people like you you’re government is ruining it. And yet, again, you don’t care because you don’t have to.
And what are you and your government doing to improve the world, Frank?
Tell me why you are unique in your ability to solve these problems, if only the world would listen…..
@Frank’s beans:
“What a stupid response. Are you so glib about your country’s vicious . . . “
How do you know where I live? Are you stalking again?
“because you’re ignorant or because you just don’t have to care?”
And have you stopped beating your wife?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions)
“I imagine it’s a bit of both.”
I imagine you’re too frightened to look in a mirror.
Now go away. The adults want to talk.
So, you deflect my questions instead of answering them, eh, TowerTone? Or is that famous American critical thought, where fair and balanced means one position vs. another position, instead of real analysis?
Well, the biggest problem in this world is the fact that the USA is out of control and using violence to retain control. That’s the biggest problem in this world. And it perpetuates because people like you let it. There’s very little my people can do to stop it other than confront the only people who can effect change: the American population.
So, you ask me what my country is doing, and I answer you that it’s NOT going around invading countries, lying about it, trying to destabilise other parts of the world.
Steve Jobs made a very interesting point when asked about the current warring going on in the world and how it affects Apple. Jobs mostly avoided the question, but he did state that industry depends quite a bit on stability, and wars get in the way of that. He also suggested to people to think about that.
Thinking about that, if you consider the amount of instability the US government bring to the rest of the world, especially places with growing economies, there might be another reason for all this warring. How is another country going to compete, if it’s geopolitical area is constantly under threat, destabilised? Answer: they won’t be able to compete, and that’s exactly what your country wants. The US government is not out to bring freedom to the world, it’s out to bring chaos to the world. Your government is dedicated to disrupt the development of any other competitor. And why would the good ol’ USA do such a thing? I think it’s pretty obvious: to make sure the USA has the strongest economy and thus the strongest military, and thus retain their monopoly on violence.
In sum, don’t bother asking me what I and my country are doing to prevent the USA from destroying the world for other people when it’s YOUR responsibility as one of its citizens to be responsible and accountable for it. My country is not engaging in espionage and bombing people into chaos.
@Ampar.
You ignore the questions, deliberately. Fine, keep your head in the sand. Of course, this is because you’re not the one getting the shit bombed out of your neighbourhood. You don’t have to care either, so you don’t.
Then I will rephrase the question.
What do you and your country do for mankind at all?
You are playing a game, Frank. And you are horrible at it.
“You don’t have to care either, so you don’t.”
Actually, I think you’re a pompous little prick who assumes to know what I think and what I care about. You don’t. Your first reply was ad hominem so I’ll return the favor. You have invalidated any chance of reasonable arguments of your own with fallacies and knee jerk responses.
P.S. Thanks for four pages. And bite me.
We never bombed Chaos. I think you’re thinking of Laos.
TowerTone, I’m not sure what game you’re referring to, but asking me what my country does is ignoring the problem. This isn’t some pissing match between countries and populations, comparing lists of good and bad deeds. If someone breaks into a neighbour’s house and kills that person, does it make a good defense for that killer to question the neighbour’s family about their good deeds?
This is about your government, your military, your actions that cause immense grief and suffering around the world. There is not other nation causing as much violence and suffering around the world as the USA. My country certainly does not. The USA is the instigator of a series of crimes against real people. Will you answer to that or not, is the real question.
@ Ampar: Okay, tell me you care, tell me you’re conscious about what’s going on, and then tell me what you’re doing about it. And I don’t believe my arguments were that ad hominen at all. Perhaps I was suggestive, but you can easily counter that if it’s not true.
@ Chrissyone: I’m not really sure what you’re referring to, but I meant the USA bombs in order to destabilise other nations and cause chaos.
It was a joke, dude.
“And I don’t believe my arguments were that ad hominen at all.”
“@Ampar What a stupid response.”
“An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone’s argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
C1: “I think you’re thinking of Laos.”
Or we could get smart and bomb KAOS.
We tried, but we missed it by that much.
C1:
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
(Who could forget Bernie Kopell as Siegfried?)
This guy is so ashamed of who he is and where he lives that he will not enter a debate with any good faith.
He has no desire to discuss events rationally.
He is as boring and overbearing with his prejudices as always.
Frank, please move to Baghdad so Blackwater can take you out…..
“Catfish are jumpin’
That paddle wheel thumpin’
Blackwater keeps rollin’ on past just the same . . .”
– From the other kind of Doobie.
“From the other kind of Doobie.”
that ties into the fact that Frank is on a ‘high-horse’…
(and maybe a ‘horse’ high. That would explain the delusions)
@ Ampar. Okay, re-read that Wikipedia entry again. You’re not fully understanding it. Sure, I called your response stupid, and it was. We can go over that, but I think it’s self-evident.
An ad hominen attack would be if I argued your argument is “wrong” because you’re stupid.
Incidentally, that seems to be the way you counter all my claims: by insulting me. I.e. According to you I’m wrong because I’m a “pompous little prick”.
Let me repeat, I say the citizens of the USA have an obligation to end their government’s violent and immoral suppression of other nations.
TowerTone’s only approach has been ad hominem – he’s arguing against my claims by trying to find out what country I’m from, as if that has anything to do with it. He doesn’t even realise his entire mode of thinking is ad hominem. He tries to discredit my statements by finding out something about me.
THAT’S ad hominem, folks. And it seems that is the mode of reasoning being pushed on American citizens; and unfortunately for the millions killed by the USA, it is working.
TowerTone: “that ties into the fact that Frank is on a ‘high-horse’…”
In case it’s still not clear, THAT is an ad hominem argument. According to TowerTone, my arguments are wrong because I’m on my “high horse”. He doesn’t even answer the question, he just deflects it with an insult.
Meanwhile, your government is destroying the lives of thousands of innocent civilians around the word and the only people capable of stopping them — the American public — sit by and ignore it.
To TT: That has to be the most annoying buzzing sound I’ve heard in a looooooooooong time. Know what I mean?
I got sad news for you Reds and Blues, there isn’t a spits worth of difference between the DNC and GOP anymore. They both spend like drunken sailors, they both expand entitlement programs, they both take marching orders from special interest groups, and they both work very hard to take away our liberties under the guise of protectionism or humanitarianism. It’s all B.S., all the time.
What happened to limited Federal government? What happened to fiscal responsibility? What happened to sound monetary policy? What happened to spreading liberty by example instead of by the business end of a gun?
I love this country as much as any of you but Frank has a valid point. Our CIA has been actively working to destabilize foreign governments, since it’s inception, for our economic gain. It’s a fact. Until we (as a nation) quit acting like we have some moral authority to police the world, we’re going to bankrupt ourselves financially, spiritually and morally.
The good news is there is a choice this election season. Google Ron Paul and find out for yourselves. Listen to the message and ask yourself, if we continue down the path we’re on, will the country be better for our children and their children? The two ruling parties have ruled us into disaster. This didn’t start 4 or 8 or even 20 years ago. This has been more than thirty years coming. It’s time to reflect on the Constitution. Read what the founders said, what they warned us against and see how far we’ve fallen.
Thanks for reading this.
MDN MW: “true” – Yes it is.
@ Ampar:
So, I point out your misinterpretation of ad hominem attacks, the fact that your country is destroying peoples all across the world, and you accuse me of ad hominen attacks, and then with your own ad hominem attacks refer to me as annoying buzzing. You know what, there’s a word for that: hypocrisy.
Your silence on your governments actions across the world speaks volumes. It is deafening. It is exactly what I’ve been trying to point out. You have validated everything I have claimed.
To the spoiled and the morally lazy, truth is an annoyance.
you mean this sound?
@ OBill-Wan Kenobi
Wow, that’s refreshing, and welcoming. Someone has guts to figure it out and admit it. Maybe there is hope. Thank you.
Oh, and macman, “balancing the budget” by raiding the Social Security Trust does not equal sound fiscal policy. It’s called a Ponzi Scheme in any other environment. What Clinton effectively did was put a big fat IOU in the box for you and I to pay. Thanks a crap load Bubba.
If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.
“I’ll look forward to calling Towertone various slurs, including “racist”, “fascist”, “stupid American”, etc. etc.. And it’s not even my country!”
“Oh ToweTone! Oh TowerTone!
Oh where art thou and thy bigotted comments, TowerTone?”
“In case it’s still not clear, THAT is an ad hominem argument. According to TowerTone, my arguments are wrong because I’m on my “high horse”. He doesn’t even answer the question, he just deflects it with an insult. “
You are nothing if not consistent, Frank. And predictable.
Like I said, you are playing a game that you are ill equipped.
Your next reply will be justification for your statements based on previous arguments.
I just pissed you off royally, didn’t I?
Go ahead, take all the rope you need…….
To TT: Yeah, that’s it! Also, the Jon Lovitz SNL character comes to mind.
Francis: Here’s the really funny and ironic part. You might be right about everything. But it doesn’t matter one whit because you are INCREDIBLY annoying. And that’s the truth.
Come on five pages!
Towertone…
I think Blackwater is exactly the kind of thing about which Frank has a problem!
Let me put something to you without entering into a who voted for what squabble.
People are actually seriously celebrating the fact that, in the most recent statistics, there were only (!) 637 fatalities in the past month; we’ve become so used to the absurd, almost pornographic level of violence and misery that 637 was pointed to as proof that things are truly getting better by the banks of the Tigris.
There’s only one problem: 637 fatalities in Iraq is – if my simple mental arithmetic is correct – equivalent to over 7000 deaths in the USA or nearly 1500 deaths here in the UK. Now, speaking from my particular perspective of sane and rational, if our countries (who jointly bear the most responsibility for this stupid, ill-conceived, badly-planned escapade) were suffering those kind of casualties on our own streets, we’d be writing to our elected representatives in horror and the media would be writing and broadcasting stories about the nightmare of violence and demanding change.
That is the chaos to which Frank is referring: we invaded a country based on lie and with next to no planning for what would happen when the mission was “accomplished”: when planning for the occupation of Germany, Marshall started working out the rules of occupation and the mechanisms for rebuilding what was expected to be chaos in early 1942.
The planners for Iraq’s occupation had a mere three months and, as if it that wasn’t bad enough, had people from the AEI and the like sticking their ideological oars in throughout the process to ensure that Iraq developed as a proper “free-market” economy after the American model (as if that was a key imperative to the Iraqi people, as opposed to being able to go to the market without being blown to smithereens).
Our politicians lied about why the war was necessary then they kept changing the lie to suit the “facts” which existed in any given short-term period. Then politicians from your side of the Atlantic decided to use Iraq as some sort of social experiment.
And all the time we ignore the real root of the problems we need to solve (Islamic extremism sponsored and encouraged by Saudi Wahabbi “religious” philosophy) because – between us – we prefer to suck up to a country whose political system is utterly polarised from the ideals we claim to support.
Let’s be honest: between your government and mine, we managed to take a dysfunctional country governed by a tyrannical autocracy and managed to somehow make it even worse.
And it’s not just my opinion or Frank’s or the majority in your country or mine: the guy who took over one wing of Israel’s intelligence services (I think the military intel) was quoted as saying that, on balance, the invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein had led to a vacuum which had created more long-term problems for the region than it had solved, such as the creation of continuous Shiite sphere of influence from Mashad to Tarabulus.
Think about that statement: a senior Israeli intelligence officer thinks it was either a bad idea executed badly (negligent) or good idea executed badly (incompetent).
If you don’t think that the equivalent of 250 people being murdered each and every day on the streets of America still meets the definition of chaos, I think you need to re-appraise your values to a certain extent.
@TowerTone:
I didn’t write those, so please feel free to discredit those statements. In fact, I discredit them right now. And no, I’m not pissed off. You will note that I have not called you a racist, a fascist, a stupid American, etc.. Yet, at least.
@Ampar:
“You might be right about everything. But it doesn’t matter one whit because you are INCREDIBLY annoying. And that’s the truth.”
That is really the saddest thing I’ve heard in a while. I don’t really care what you say about me or the insults you may hurl, but I do definitely care about what is going on in this world. The fact that you would ignore and dismiss such serious things even though you may recognise them to be true, well, for one thing, it is an admission of cooperative ignorance at the expense of so many lives destroyed, and for another thing, it’s just so vile. You have the ability to stop something terrible, and you make jokes about it. Maybe in 30 years you will regret it, but it disturbs me that right now you are so comfortable with it.
Frank should take a tonal cue from MCCFR. It won’t happen but hey, stranger things have happened.
You’re right, Frank. Democrats do prefer Macs.
“The fact that you would ignore and dismiss such serious things . . .”
You really do have a a reading comprehension problem, btw.
I’m not dismissing the serious problems in the world.
I’m dismissing you. Big, big, huge, enormous difference.
MCCFR
Sorry, but the argument between Frank and the rest of the world has nothing to do with Iraq or our respective governments and has everything to do with Franks’ lack of tact and need for acceptance.
If the war were to have never occurred, then it would be another matter that he would be distorting to simply satisfy his need (from weakness) to demonstrate that he is superior in thought to a simpleton from my neck of the woods.
I don’t really care to get in a pissing contest about the realities of the conflict, it is a bore. Besides, even if I could wave a magic wand (no, not THAT one, Frank) and convince him of anything beyond what his insecurities allow, that would be like throwing a new toy away….
TT,
With the greatest respect, the war may be a bore to you.
But to the 25 million people in Iraq, it is a tragedy to which they wake up every morning. As it is to the families who have lost their sons, daughters, fathers and mothers in the service of your country and mine. Not to mention those who simply came back wounded or maimed, both physically and emotionally and who have been woefully treated by the politicians on their return.
I would be careful about criticising Frank for a lack of tact if that’s your level of sensitivity to those circumstances.
Read carefully, MCCFR. I didn’t say the war was a bore to me. I have followed it very closely since its inception.
I know a young man, a son of a very close friend, who just got over there. Today is the last day to get gifts in the mail for Christmas delivery. This man grew up with my kids, and I am very proud of him. The war is not a bore to me.
Discussing it with people who have a hidden agenda is a bore.
And reciting to others what effect war has on a populace, especially a history buff, whose family had a long line of military service until I broke it, can be taken as a little condescending.
I don’t think you intended that. But it is.
I know several young men and women who have gone to war lately. Every single one of them that has comes back thinks the war was a mistake.
A few of them never came back.
Holy crap. I leave the room for a few minutes and looked what happened…..
Frank please tell me two things:
1) You are doing this only to help Ampar reach 5 pages
2) Your country that you keep mentioning is NOT Canada.
TT,
Condescension is not my aim, but I am concerned that there is a trend to trivialise what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan (which is well on the way to becoming a failed state) in a “success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan” kind of way.
I say this as someone who can see real trouble on the way: I worry that the foreign policy failures and military misadventures of the last several years are going to lead to regional instability in West Asia that will land up hitting us in any number of ways from security to the economy. I think we’ve bitten off more than we can chew, I don’t think we’ve dealt with Islamic extremism and I think we’ve developed some “diplomatic” marriages of convenience with some fairly unpleasant regimes.
And the thing I worry about most is that our actions have effectively given the “new” Russia (same as the old Russia, but with better tailoring and nicer cars) cârte blanche to become a truly unpleasant nation: arrogant, oil-rich, no history of democracy and even less respect for it, contempt for international conventions – including some pretty key ones, administered by former Marxist-Leninist intelligence hacks, run by gangsters (sometimes the same people), you get the picture.
We can’t really take the moral high ground with the new Russia: extraordinary rendition, pre-emptive invasion and spying on our citizens without judicial oversight have all queered our pitch on that front – Putin and his successors will simply tell us to go climb a rope with the added threat of making Europe freeze its nuts off.
And, as a result, I worry about Azerbaijan and Georgia caught in a vice between Russia and Iran.
Such is interconnectedness of all things in the world of Zen politics. Ho hum!
“My country certainly does not. “
Where do you live? Elbonia?
The odd thing, MCCFR, is that none of this is new! The problem with Russia, Islamist terrorist, having to align with unpleasant regimes, are all ongoing, and have been, for decades, and for some, centuries.
As far as losing our rights or freedoms, we are actually in a better situation now. The Feds and locals have ALWAYS watched those that they want, and even while there are MORE ways to keep check on someone, there is also more AWARENESS of that happening. More people watching the ones that are watching.
I don’t for a moment look at the current state of America and think that it is anywhere near as bad off as many believe, especially in light of problems we have overcome in the past.
Are we in perfect form? No, which is about as perfect as America can be.
By following the rules of the Film Actor’s Guild, the world can become a better place; that handles dangerous people with talk, and reasoning; that, is the fag way. One day you’ll all look at the world us actors created and say, “wow, good going, fag. You really made the world a better place, didntcha, fag?”
Last year I went to Iraq. Before Team America showed up, it was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles.
Kim Jong Il: Hans Brix? Oh no! Oh, herro. Great to see you again, Hans!
Hans Blix: Mr. Il, I was supposed to be allowed to inspect your palace today, but your guards won’t let me enter certain areas.
Kim Jong Il: Hans, Hans, Hans! We’ve been frew this a dozen times. I don’t have any weapons of mass destwuction, OK Hans?
Hans Blix: Then let me look around, so I can ease the UN’s collective mind. I’m sorry, but the UN must be firm with you. Let me in, or else.
Kim Jong Il: Or else what?
Hans Blix: Or else we will be very angry with you… and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.
Kim Jong Il: OK, Hans. I’ll show you. Stand to your reft.
Hmmm, lemme see. Rush Limbaugh LOVES Macs! Oh, and Karl Rove uses an iPhone.
Fact is, the majority of Democrats are Microsoft Windows people.
Are we about to get the “dicks, pussies and assholes” speech?
@ DeltaNick
So, the majority of people who are not Carl Rove use Windows? Your logic has blown my mind.
I am a true fiscal and social conservative and I only use Macs because they are the most productive computers. I think the stats presented have more to do with distribution than anything else.
Look at me! I’m recycling (com)post!!!
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/11581/P0/
hey, where was Ampar during all this?
DeltaNick…
Please, let’s not get into the things that Rush Limbaugh loves because that way lays madness. Or at least a substantial bill at the pharmacy.
Notice the one exception to the rule: Alaska.
Not only do we *sigh* vote Republican (and corrupt republicans at that) but we have a huge Mac usage.
I think no matter how we vote I see a LOT of friends with Macs because they work. People up here do what works. We don’t fart around for style or looks. We do what’s easy & nbest regardless of what it is.
Besides that there are schools everywhere using Macs.
Just my 2¢ from just south of the Arctic Circle.
“hey, where was Ampar during all this?”
Holy crap, nine pages? Nice ranting!
November, 8th 2006?
Not much going on then . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2006#2006_November_8
Wait a minute. Rummy stepped down the same day Vista went RTM? AHA! ! !
“I am a true fiscal and social conservative . . .”
But let’s not forget the fecal conservationists from Seychelles.
nothing to do with nothing
http://www.spymac.com/details/?2311958
Well well well…5 pages.
Color me wrong.
FIIIIIIIIVE pages Ampar.
Count them. Five.
What’s that red stuff all over the floor?
The problem is the “left – right” stereotypes of French governmental architecture. The true contrast is between the individual thinker & the group thinker: whether individuals are creators/owners of the state or the state creator/owner of individuals. That is; the individualist versus the statist. Hitler & Stalin were statists, Jefferson & Hamilton were individualists. Review the “Think Different” manifesto: Mac = individualist, Windows = statist.
One drifts into PC ownership: Mac users make a choice to compute “Different” What set of characteristics predominate in an individual are contextual. Ask Apple how they choose store placement. With rising share, they’re hardly clueless.
I’m a Proud Republican And A Mac User. GOD bless America!!!!
The problem is the “left – right” stereotypes of French governmental architecture. The true contrast is between the individual thinker & the group thinker: whether individuals are creators/owners of the state or the state creator/owner of individuals. That is; the individualist versus the statist. Hitler & Stalin were statists, Jefferson & Hamilton were individualists. Review the “Think Different” manifesto: Mac = individualist, Windows = statist.
One drifts into PC ownership: Mac users make a choice to compute “Different”
“Mac users make a choice to compute “Different””
These days with Intel hardware and Parallels, it’s not really that different.
Even Apple are pushing the idea that they’re a good choice for Vista in their latest Mac vs PC ads. Steve has embraced Wintel. It’s only a matter of time before Mac OS X is extinguished.
“Count them. Five.”
And somehow it’s just not as satisfying as I thought it would be.
“It’s only a matter of time before Mac OS X is extinguished.”
Everything is relative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
Independent. Mac user since 1987.
“Mac users make a choice to compute “Different””
These days with Intel hardware and Parallels, it’s not really that different.
Even Apple are pushing the idea that they’re a good choice for Vista in their latest Mac vs PC ads. Steve has embraced Wintel. It’s only a matter of time before Mac OS X is extinguished.
What a lot of WinDell propaganda bullshit.
Firstly, let’s kill off the meme that Macintosh on Intel is in any way a less valid Macintosh than “Mac on PPC” or “Mac on 68K”; at the end of the day, a CPU is nothing more than a highly miniaturised package of gates and transistors which no more defines the computing experience than my DVD player defines my movie collection.
“Mac on Intel” does everything that “Mac on PPC” did! Except – because Intel finally gave up the megahertz myth – it does it more quickly and more cheaply. And it also stays more up to date with the marketplace.
In a few weeks, I fully expect Apple to announce systems based on the Penryn family which means we’ll have experienced TWO separate Intel architectures (Yonah-DC [Core Duo] and Merom [Core2Duo]) and an enhanced process shrink (Penryn) in two years. Furthermore, we’ll see yet another architecture change (Nehalem) in the next 15-18 months.
Compare that to life at the mercy of IBM and Freescale; actually, don’t bother because there is no comparison.
The Macintosh experience is defined by the manner in which the (now commodotised) hardware components are integrated into the software environment – that’s why iSight works so well and why you can set up an AirPort link on a Mac that’s just come out of its box, as opposed to having to dick around with M$’ hopeless wireless network setup routines (is it WPA, is it WPA2, is it TKIP, do I care).
In this respect, M$ should be thrilled that Parallels and VMWare exist, because – between them – they achieve something that the physical PC industry has never managed to accomplish, namely the development of a stable, virtual reference platform on which Windows can, for want of a better word, run.
But let’s be clear: Parallels/VMware put Windows in its rightful place – it’s nothing more than a poorly engineered application environment that doesn’t deserve to be considered an operating system. It is a wart in the world of computing and warts – it should be remembered – are caused by viruses.
/These days with Intel hardware and Parallels, it’s not really that different.’
MCCFR take is spot on. Intel-PPC difference is unrelated for the most part and frankly many Mac users wouldn’t have a clue about what really is underneath the hood. As for Parallels, the advantage is to lure PC users to the Mac side where (and I have seen this soooooo often), they access Windows less and less with time.
Having Windows on your machine can be like a parent holding your hand as you tread into uncharted waters and are afraid. It gives you enough courage to make the jump. Once in,,,,wow…vive la difference!
To MCCFR:
Well said. Thanks.
“[Windows] is a wart in the world of computing and warts – it should be remembered – are caused by viruses.”
Great line! I need to put that on a shirt or a bumper sticker.
Buster…
Just one issue…
Having Windows on your machine can be like a parent holding your hand
Actually more like an abusive parent beating you with a baseball bat and sending you to bed without any supper, but I kind of understand where you’re coming from.
@MCCFR
Both analogies work lol
So, this is Frank. MDN has blocked me from posting comments. Good to see democracy and free speech are alive and well in the ol’ USA. What’s the matter, can’t handle a free discussion?
And you have the gall to think you’re free society. Get real, people, your freedoms are fading before your eyes, and not only do you not stop it, you like it. That’s the end folks, of the brave USofA.
I’m sure TowerTone and Ampar are twiddling their thumbs with glee, proving once and for all their hidden fascist tendencies. Oh, do you disagree, TowerTone? Do you Ampar?
The end of America, and its people LOVE it.
Hey Frank…you avoided my question. What country are you from that allows you to crap on America in comparison?
Frank:
Your arrogant pissing on my country has gone far enough
I’ve had it with you, putz. The America you insult is the same one that brings order and democracy to the rest of the world. In case you forgot, it’s the USA that rescued the rest of the world from tje nazis and the commies Maybe you think we should all be in some gulag. You don’t honor the freedom we gave you. Ungrateful turd.
and another thing you piece of turd scumsucker, if Macdailynews wants to cut you off,all the better for us! I say you don’t deserve to be here you worthless crap factory. I say we all BAN you and then we’ll all have some relief from stupidity. Good riddance.
Who’s with me? Anyone else who wants Frank banned?
To American:
I appreciate your anger at Frank’s comments.
However, I respect anyone’s right to express an opinion (disclaimer: MDN has the right to disagree since this is a privately owned forum).
I don’t think anyone should be banned but that’s my never humble opinion.
Frank presumes to know me and how I think. That is a bigger insult.
I seriously doubt he can understand this.
But, let them speak. It doesn’t hurt.
P.S. This is someone who was proud to be known as Twisted Mac Freak. Freedom of speech should be valued the most.
Ampar you speak very mature, and I can respect you for that. I don’t think that punk should have the right to disrespect us when it’s obvious he ought to be grateful. He just spits out arragant crude. Pissing on us. You think that ought to be defended? It’s not an opinion, it’s a bunch of pecker talk from a dipspit. People like that don’t deserve you defending them. Proud and free,noble are we. Hats off to you Ampar sir.
To Macdaily news
came a whirling flooze
in the name of Frank
and his mental crank
He mocked us and bugged us
crappered on our tour bus
and just wodn’t leave us alone!!!
good night all, be reading you in the morning sirs.
“I don’t think that punk should have the right to disrespect us when it’s obvious he ought to be grateful.”
Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing. Get angry. Speak your mind. It’s o.k. to be a disrespectful punk. Even stupid has its place. Life is too short to be angry for long.
However, if you try to take away my any of my rights, I’ll spend the rest of my life hunting you down to kick your ass. That’s as Frank as I will get.
Democrats suck. Commie-Terrorist-Loving Morons. Love my Mac.
“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe”
That’s only the real universe. The imaginary universe in which Apple is a successful computer company is not bound by any laws of science or logic.
“The Macintosh experience is defined by the manner in which the (now commodotised) hardware components are integrated into the software environment”
That’s actually NOT what fanboys used to say before the Intel switch on Macs. Back then Intel sucked, PPC ruled, and the PPC was going to rise again and take over the world.
Now Intel rules and the processor is unimportant.
For most Mac users their identity is defined by whatever diminishing differences they can point out between what they use and and a Windows PC, and as those differences disappear, so the rationalizations change.
Believe it or not, this kind of rationalization behavior is well documented with other cults, where for example the cult leaders will predict the end of the world, and the faithful they will go out and evangelize to all their friends. But when the end of the world as predicted doesn’t come they don’t regard this as something that tears at the very foundations of their faith and causes them to abandon it. Rather they will concoct fantastic explanations which strengthen it, e.g. that their faithful evangelical efforts caused whatever vengeful being was going to destroy the world to relent and allow it’s continued existence.
In analysing the Church of the Mac, it’s clear that the loyalty is to Apple not to any fundamental truths. If Steve blesses a thought or concept that last week was part of what the Church taught to be Heresy, the Faithful will immediately change tune and find ways to justify the changes in it’s teachings. In fact over time they will rewrite history and begin to deny that something ever was ever heresy.
Thanks Brother MCCFR for your demonstration of the truth of this.
The Church of Mac is a really interesting social phenomenon.
“The imaginary universe in which Apple is a successful computer company is not bound by any laws of science or logic.”
Did you read that before you hit “submit”? I imagine not.
@ Ampar
So, you’re such a big supported of freedom of speech, eh? What are you doing the people who are being silenced by the American government, by the American media? Do their voices just not count? Or perhaps you just don’t understand it is happening? Tell me this: what news do you receive from outside the USA?
Freedom of speech? You make big statements about it while patting yourself on the back, but have you done anything to defend it while your government is taking it away?
This is exactly what happened in the Soviet Union. The communists were brought in with the promise of freedom, but very quickly rights were taken away, bit by bit, until they became a totalitarian state. And how did it all start? The government spun it as a necessary in order to counter “spies” and “terrorists”. You think the terrorist line is a NEW idea??? It’s old, let me tell you. It’s just that no one is aware of it nowadays.
@ American
I’m pretty speechless. Mixing calls for banning other MDNers while writing crappy poetry? This site gets stupider every day. Go ahead, ban me asswipe. You just are too full of yourself to see beyond your myopic American coke bottle lenses.
Another thing to all of you: censorship always starts somewhere, and it’s started here. Where is it going to go is up to you.
@American
You comments about saving the world from the nazis sort of sums up why many normal people get irritated by Americans….in one word…arrogance. Please realize that ‘other’ people were involved in that conflict not just the US ( I am from a military family). Canada was fighting in 1939..the americans only jumped in much later. In the battle of Britain, it was Canadian pilots who helped save the day and the country. I am sure you didn’t mean it but your statement is pure arrogance which makes puts you on the same level as Frank. Please be careful when writing angry.
“have you done anything to defend it while your government is taking it away?”
Frank…many people in the US and Canada are currently fighting and dying in courtrooms and battlefields to defend democracy and freedoms including speech. Don’t be such a tool.
“Go ahead, ban me asswipe.”
Ummm…I do not think that American had any role in banning you. MDN probably banned you because they are less tolerant of your drivel that the others in this site.
Gee I hate being last post.
“Did you read that before you hit “submit”? I imagine not.”
What particular piece are you referring to, the perpetual insistence by fanboys that a company with 2%-3% worldwide market share is successful? The perpetual delusion that you have that in the computing world Apple will matter in the long term rather than become a footnote in history?
Phew…am glad I wasn’t last post!
Ummmm………
Jumping in so Buster doesn’t feel like the caboose.
Ampar… you’re one in a million on this thread bro. Killin me, yer just killin me.
I can’t believe it. Five pages and you all are still at it. I’m even more surprised I’m about to do what I’m about to do…
American, Buster, don’t get into a pissing match over who contributed more to the various war efforts in history. Recognize the US made significant contribution to the allied effort in WWII. Done. So did the English, French, Canadians, Soviets, Italians (they fought both sides), Australians, and the Poles (sorry to those I left out). Hell, the Poles were the only allied nation to fight on every front.
My point is, we shouldn’t be beating each other down for being proud of our nation’s contributions. Damn right we should be proud. We all should be proud of the efforts our parents and grandparents put forth.
This silly bickering about appearing arrogant is, well, silly. Honoring one group’s achievement does in no way detract from another’s.
On a side note, I strongly encourage people read up on Poland’s role in the war. The 1939 invasion wasn’t nearly as one-sided as many people thing. The Warsaw Uprising is hard reading at times, but it worth it.
Oh, and Frank. There are a great many Americans who remember what our country is about. We’ll be where we need to be and do what we need to when it needs to be done. Well, we might be late, but never too late. Our voices are quite, but we aren’t silent nor are we idle.
” . . . you’re one in a million on this thread bro.”
See, it’s not the size that counts but the motility!
@Fario
I understand what you are saying and in fact if you read my post carefully, you are essentially repeating what I said. ‘Others’ were involved. I merely gave examples of Canadian involvement as I know them best.
It would have been hypocritical if I would admonish someone then do the same.
@ Farlo
Yeah American are right where they need to be. In WW2 they were sitting on the sidelines, selling arms to the Nazis, even proclaiming Hitler “Man of the Year”. IBM, Prescott Bush, and many other prominent figures of the USA all supporting the Nazis. Except when the Soviet Union got invaded, then the Nazis didn’t have a chance fighting a war on 2 fronts. Then those Nazi supporters in the US knew they were on the losing side and came riding in so valiantly to save the world (and pick up a fair bit of loot), after millions and millions had already died.
But that’s besides the point. That’s where you WERE and it says nothing about where you ARE NOW and GOING TO BE. Right now you’re in a lot of places you’re not told about, and doing a lot of evil deeds you also aren’t aware about. If the USA commits an act of aggression and kills thousands in a population of some country, would your news outlets report? No. Would your news outlets call attention to it and inform the US population? No, and they don’t. If the USA committed an act of terror, would they be called on it? No, by the American logic it is “impossible” for the USA to commit and act of terror.
So pay attention to that: nothing the USA does can be considered and act of terror, even when they do commit acts of terror. Try to prove me wrong: tell me when the USA could be considered to commit an act of terror? You can’t do it because that’s the underlying axiom that your whole country has gobbled up. And with that reasoning in the air, your government is free to do ANYTHING is the United States. They have inoculated themselves from the judgement of “terrorist” and can commit unspeakable acts all over the world. You don’t and cannot see it because you accept the logic that it is impossible for the USA to commit acts of terror. And THAT is frightening. If it doesn’t frighten you, it should.
The people of a nation are the conscience of it’s government; but in the USA, their conscience is blind. Working, but blind.
@ Ampar
You make big claims about defending people’s freedom of speech? Are you going to make good on that promise for the thousands being held at Guantanoma Bay?
Frank, minus the hate and vitriol, much of what you say is true. Remember, however, the adage about arguing on the internet…
I say, gentlemen and gentle ladies, let me get a word in edgewise. Macs are becoming very popular with today’s politicians because you can run both OS X and Windows on it. And why does that make them popular with politicians? Because it allows them to flip-flop!! Nyuk-yuk-yuk-yuk! …..er, I mean …..muah-ha-ha-ha!!
Last post? Hope so!
“Last post? Hope so!”
I hope so too for you, Abdullah. I was just on my way out the door. I’m headed to Cuba with lawyers, guns and money. Wish me luck.
Jaysus Frank….chill out. You make it sound like Ampar pissed in your soup.
@Ampar…bring back some cigars. By the time you get back, we may even hit 6 pages albeit 6 pages a crap.
By the way, where the hell is Guantanoma????
“Guantanoma”
Skin lesions caused by frequent contact with bat excrement.
Yeah, that’s really funny. You’re right, “guantanamo”. You’ve said it all. Make jokes about it. Maybe it won’t be so funny in 10 years.
Would you make jokes about all the children you burned alive with napalm? Why is funny then to make jokes about the fathers you kidnapped, stole from their families, and imprisoned and held without rights?
Do you realise the USA has been convicted of war crimes – not just accused, but convicted. By the UN security council? But because the USA vetoed those convictions. Vetoed them.
Think about that, if you can.
Does this mean that Libertarians love Linux?
Ampar, there are some days you simply crack me up!
Good one.
@Frank…does it even occur to you that although the US is not perfect, all countries have blemishes. Hell, Canada like England, discriminated against Jews during WWII. Or does anti-american hate consume you.
Or more likely, you have having fun at this vs real anger.
that frank hates the usa because were the top of the world while he’s on the bottom. Yeah were not perfect but were the freest the strongest and the best. Other countries are backwards or just snobbery. Live in the USA to one day and you won’t live there for las than the rest of your life.
You don’t just live in the USA, you love it.
yeah American….in addition to all those other attrubutes, apparently you are the best at writing English as well.
Get real.
crap…apparently I can’t spell as well
BUSTER ! ! ! ! SIX PAGES ! ! !
You da man!
Buster, here’s the best tribute I could muster:
“O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.”
Thanks Ampar. For all their warts and pimples, Canada and the USA together is really a damn fine region of the world to live in.
This thread ended on the topic of defending freedom of speech. Although it took 6 pages, some how I think that was accomplished.
RIght Frank?
Here is my tribute to Canada.
and
The first, a most incredible composer (we’ll not talk about Shine)
The second, the perfect entertainer. (Dam you, Elvis, I want to wear your red shoes!)
to buster
I may not have the best spelling,but my screen is old.
Like i said you must be one of the snobbers. Its no crime to love the USA. We do it and we wear it proudly.
The only exception are the far left democrats, who I’m sure are mostly immigrants and foreigners. I wouldn’t be shocked if I heard they are from some communism country. Trying to destroy our nation.
TowerTone: That was wonderful. I love Joni and Diana. A duet would be amazing.
To the registered American:
“The only exception are the far left democrats . . .”
Be careful that you don’t generalize or only generals will matter.
I’m starting to get the feeling there’s some anti American sedimetnts around here.
Who cares about meaningless correlations, debatable inferences, and biased conclusions? Most people purchase a computer based upon their best understanding of price, functionality, and quality. I don’t think that political persuasion is a significant factor in computer selection.
Fred, you are wise. I salute you.
I enjoy urinating into my own mouth.
Is that why the British call it getting pissed?
On that notes, here’s a <a href=”http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=88633330621122317&q=noam+chomsky+duration:long&total=143&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7″>link to a video<a> all of you ought to check out, if you’re interested in learning more about American domestic and foreign policy. This goes far beyond the Democrat / Republican dichotomy. A true eye opener.
Sorry, that link is here