“Norway’s Consumer Ombudsman has filed a complaint with Apple’s music download sales service iTunes, arguing that the transaction terms violate Norwegian law. The move is the latest step in Scandinavian skepticism towards the successful service’s protection system of songs sold for use on Apple’s massively popular iPod player,” Joacim Lund and Jonathan Tisdall report for Aftenposten.
“Sales at iTunes are downloaded in a format expressly designed to be played on iPods, and if users want to play their music in another format on another advice after purchase, they must violate their agreement,” Lund and Tisdall report. “Consumer Ombudsman Bjørn Erik Thon told TV 2 that Apple iTunes would either have to change their practices in Norway or pay fines.”
Full article here.
“Apple was reported to Norway’s Consumer Ombudsman earlier this year by The Consumer Council of Norway, an independent consumer rights organization. The Consumer Council complained that the iTunes Music Store’s terms and conditions and DRM violated Norway’s Marketing Control Act,” Peter Cohen reports for Playlist.
“The group called FairPlay ‘an unreasonable technical term of use, in so far as it prevents purchasers of music files at iTunes from using other MP3 players than iPods. The sole purpose of this type of DRM is to lock consumers into buying products from a dominant market player.’ The group said in its complaint that Apple’s terms of service for using the iTunes Music Store expressly forbids users from circumventing the DRM, and said that such a restriction is forbidden under Norway’s Copyright Act,” Cohen reports.
Full article here.
We’ll comment as soon as we finish playing our Norwegian-bought Xbox games on the PlayStation we picked up in Oslo; right after we download some songs from MSN Music Norway that play on our Macs and iPods. But, first, we’re going listen to Apple iTunes Music Store-purchased songs on our Motorola SLVR mobile phone.
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Related articles:
Consumer Council of Norway files a complaint regarding Apple iTunes Music Store’s terms of service – January 27, 2006
Apple’s vs. Microsoft’s music DRM: whose solution supports more users? – August 17, 2005
They’re just jealous cause ABBA’s from Sweden
Are these guys so technically inept they don’t know how to burn a CD?
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Must be because iTunes makes it soooooo difficult.
I wonder how much money Microsoft “donates” to these consumer groups around the world. That or the heads of these so-called organizations are Microsoft zealots.
yawn
You said ‘Ombudsman’…
I guess in Norway, all software applications are written to ensure they can be run on all plaforms and not locked to one specific operating system.
On a similar note, its great that Norwegian razor blades are universal so you aren’t locked into buying one brand of razors.,, and inkjet toner cartridges… so on… and so on…
I think MDN is trying to have it both ways, here.
-Whenever someone says “Apple will fail again with the iPod where it failed with the Mac,” MDN is pretty fast to proclaim that music is nothing like games or any other application, since they can easily be converted to play on any other mp3 player.
-Yet, whenever someone complains about the format used by the iPod not working with other mp3 players, MDN makes silly comparisons about how your Playstation games don’t work on your XBox.
MDN. As you’ve said before, music is different than applications, which take a lot more development hours. Stop comparing the two when it suits you.
I hate motorola
My favorite band from Sweden is “Roxette”.
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Peace.
J they arent mixing their arguments.
If people say itunes will fail because it being a (so-called) proprietary system and the person claiming that compares it to the mac platform, it is certainly a valid response to point out that making music work on multiple platforms is FAR easier than making software work, making making the claim invalid, then its certainly appropriate and factually correct to do so.
If someone wants to talk about formats that are supposedly locking in consumers (which Apple isn’t doing anyway), its certainly a valid point to point out that other companies and businesses lock in their consumers to their hardware. Another valid point.
They arent mixing arguments. They aren’t picking and choosing as you put it. Each case is different and they use different points of fact to rebuff the arguments the writers are making.
Hats off to them. The more bad publicity that gets out regarding DRM of any kind, the better.
Hey “The Other Steve”, sure I can burn a CD to convert my iTMS purchased music to be DRM free. The question is why should I? What if I’ve got 500 songs? How many CD’s will that require I burn before I can convert to MP3 or AIFF? Why doesn’t Apple allow you to convert directly on your hard drive?
If you think Apple isn’t the one forcing DRM, you’re wrong. Try selling your music as an independent artist on iTunes and requesting that Apple not put DRM on it and see how far you get.
Also try playing the videos you buy off of iTunes on something other than the iTunes player. Then you can see why DRM sucks period.
Macromancer. I respectfully disagree (Wow, has phrase ever been used by an MDN reader before?
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Someone can’t play music on their (inferior) Creative mp3 player, and MDN’s response is to forget about it because why would one expect to be able to play Xbox games on their Playstation. Its a silly comparision.
No Lutefisk for you!
J, Jeff . . . Why aren’t you two bitching about Microsoft’s DRM policy as loudly as you are about Apple’s? Just because WMA-locked tunes play on MORE devices doesn’t make MS’s restrictions any less onerous than Apple’s for an individual user.
Now, if you’re against ALL music protection schemes, that’s one thing. But to grouse solely about Apple’s relatively benign DRM is unfair and hypocritical.
^
Microsoft’s DRM policy isn’t the topic. Fairplay is the topic at hand.
And to clairify, my only beef was with the incessant Xbox-Playstation comparisons.
Clarify, even.
J,
What about MDN’s excellent point that Motorola mobile phones play iTunes songs? That totally destroys Norway’s argument all by itself.
Nobody ever learns anything from France – even in the rare cases where there’s actually something to learn.
C’est la vie.
Norwegian jokes anyone???
“J,
What about MDN’s excellent point that Motorola mobile phones play iTunes songs? That totally destroys Norway’s argument all by itself.”
Fred. Yes, it does. But the Motorola example also demonstrates is that it isn’t such a stretch to have Fairplay music playing on other devices, or as MDN would say “an X-Box playing Playstation games.” Comparing mp3 players to gaming consoles simply does not work.
Hey “The Other Steve”, sure I can burn a CD to convert my iTMS purchased music to be DRM free. The question is why should I?
No, that’s a question of convenience. No one has ever claimed that it’s convenient to legally convert iTunes songs for use on other players. But too often we hear the bogus claim that it’s impossible.
iTunes songs can be legally burned to audio CD and re-ripped to another format. Therefore it is incorrect to say that iTunes songs can only be played on an iPod. Period. End of story.
Cubert:
“Norwegian jokes anyone???”
No. The armchair patriots haven’t come out yet.
“No, that’s a question of convenience. No one has ever claimed that it’s convenient to legally convert iTunes songs for use on other players. But too often we hear the bogus claim that it’s impossible.
iTunes songs can be legally burned to audio CD and re-ripped to another format.”
Actually, re-ripping an audio CD burned from iTunes as a means of circumventing the DRM isn’t technically legal.
Norway, why did you not allow British, American, French and other forces to supply Finland over your territory when they attacked the country and they were fighting for their survival?
That goes for gutless Sweden, too.
Hypocrites,
I’m singling out Apple because well, this is an Apple site and the story is about iTunes. But yes, all DRM should be removed. I agree that Apple’s Fairplay is the least obstructive of all the DRM’s. But thats not good enough. But its still about vendor lock-in. There are a number of digital music streamers out there to play music off your computer onto your home stereo. You can also do the same with TiVo. But none of them work with downloaded music from iTunes because of Fairplay.
Before there was ‘Lock In’ to any company’s devices there was the demand by The Music Labels for DRM on every music file sold over the Internet.
Many people the world over conveniently forget that salient fact.
Apple chose a DRM method that is in the iTunes software not in the music file itself. Thus anything sold on iTMS has DRM.
This was all done before any hint of device ‘Lock In’.
Remember that people!
You don’t want me to come over there.
Apparently they are enjoying all of the oil money in Norway:
http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/english/article250240.ece
Maybe someone can educate the Norwegian people about the unfettered marketplace as it relates to Apple products.
Well, when I heared about on the Norwegian news last night i made a report myself to Forbrukerombudet. I asked them to investigate a Norwegian internet musicstore for forcing me to Windows as they require Microsoft Media Player which isn’t available for Mac.
I do find it unacceptable that a dominant OS supplier (have more than 95% marketshare in Norway) is allowed to force me to buy a PC when I’m fully satisfied with my Mac. Going to be interesting to see the respons…
The legislation is not targeting iTunes Music Store DRM as such, but defines “relevant equipment” and gives consumers the right to break copy protection schemes i.e to play a CD with a copy protection mechanism on a PC. This definition is also extended to digital music files.
Microsoft DRM and others are also in line to be tested against the same legislation. Full story here.
On one hand, I will always take the side of ALL DRM IS BAD DRM, because it restricts the consumer from using the products of their choice.
For example, in two years, if I want to use a different mp3 player than the iPod (though I certainly don’t forsee that happening), then the hundred or so song I’ve downloaded from the iTMS will need to be burnt to CDs. If I continue to buy at the rate I do now, that will be a lot of CDs.
But, at the same time it annoys me that no one ever mentions the fact the Microsoft, Real, etc. uses DRM, too. They’re just as bad, if not worse!
Same country that is currently hosting thepiratebay.org, and blotched the Holloway investigation. Yeah…..
Jeff,
Because (thankfully) I know absolutely nothing about Windows and its DRM schemes, may I ask you this?
Can a song that I might purchase on a friend’s PC be moved to–and then play on–my iPod?
Are there ANY WMA-based music sites that will connect to/work with my Macs?
If, as I assume at this point, that the answer to both of the above questions is NO, then where does Norway or any of the complainers on this site get off criticizing Apple?
Also, some of the biggest restrictions of DRM comes from the major record labels themselves, not the company (Apple, Microsoft, Real) that makes the DRM.
Virgin Records doesn’t want non-DRMed music out there. No one ever points that out.
My CDs don’t play in my cassette player. Who do I sue?
Everyone here should remember just one thing:
All DRM architecture is mandated not by Apple or Microsoft, but rather by . . .
RECORD COMPANIES! RECORD COMPANIES! RECORD COMPANIES! RECORD COMPANIES! RECORD COMPANIES! RECORD COMPANIES! RECORD COMPANIES! RECORD COMPANIES! RECORD COMPANIES!
Crap on THEM, not AAPL and MSFT
Violate what agreement? iTunes lets you change the AAC format to several others. If this was not part of iTunes then these features would not be included. Don’t these people have anything better to do than whine about stupid stuff.
DAMN THOSE VIKINGS!!!
Oh yeah, sure… “I’m a VIKING, I can burn and pillage wherever I WANT! Oooh, I’m sorry, I can’t hear you! I’m binging and purging!!!”
Oh yeah VIKINGS?!? I’ve never heard of a Viking Astronaut? Ya think you’re such hot shit. I just played you out…bitches.
John:
“Violate what agreement? iTunes lets you change the AAC format to several others. If this was not part of iTunes then these features would not be included. Don’t these people have anything better to do than whine about stupid stuff.”
That’s hardly a valid comparison at all. Protected .aac cannot be converted using the software unless you “trick” it by burning the songs to CD, then re-ripping them.
…that Apple iTunes would either have to change their practices in Norway or pay fines.
breakdown or shakedown
*Apple pony’s up the bribe money.*
Luke
Stare onto you hand, in a few million years you MIGHT evolve a thumb.
What a loser
em de itoon sumisc stewr es goode. eu con birn ur muzic en empeethree fourmatt und den ree-eemport… bork, bork, bork!
My gut reaction: As soon as MS market share in Sweden is whacked by 50% for whatever reason they can find, then I’ll feel comfortable calling iTMS and related products “dominant market players” in the context of an excuse to levy fines for unfair or unreasonable business practices by the terms of Norway’s MCA.
Sheeesh – give me a break.
This is nuts!
Will someone explain to me WHY countries think they can argue about things like this? I’d really like to know.
To me – it seems like Sweden can sue me for not making pink feather dusters because I only make blue ones.
I realize it’s an over simplification – but if I have a product that is popular – but you can get essentially the same thing from someone else (only not as good) – why attack the popular item?
Please explain without resorting to political stereotyping!
“Please explain without resorting to political stereotyping!”
You’re asking a lot from this bunch, friend.
“Will someone explain to me WHY countries think they can argue about things like this? I’d really like to know.”
Countries are free to have their own laws. They should be applied to all the music download services, sure, but they can do what they want.
I think the US copyright laws that curtail for digital downloads the actions that fell under fair use for casettes and vinyl are ridiculous. I believe it is silly that burning to CD to remove DRM, then moving to to a crappy Creative mobile player is a violation of the license agreement. I think the US law should be changed to make that fair use.
MDN : poor choice of comparison with the SLVR. Not all SLVRs are born equal in that in USA yeah sure you can use it to play iTunes tunes. Not here, for some reason, Moto have disabled this (among others) feature in this region.
MW : age
” That’s hardly a valid comparison at all. Protected .aac cannot be converted using the software unless you “trick” it by burning the songs to CD, then re-ripping them.” – duper
Yes, it can. Do you know there are softwares to remove the FairPlay without CD-burning tricks? The fact that it is illegal to do so has something to do with the country’s legislation. So fix your laws first before you blame others.
What’s next? I want to run the superior Mac OSX on a crappy Dell computer? Do we sue Apple or Dell for that?
I want to play lasertag on Whitehouse property, but they arrest me every time I try. Time to sue the us govt.
Folks, Norway isn’t going after Apple. They are going after DRM in general. Why do so many people here get upset when someone attacks DRM? Are you afraid that without DRM, Apple’s iTunes would get squashed? I hate DRM. But I understand it has its place. Like a business document that needs to be opened by a specific person or something. But not music. I would find this very interesting though:
Suppose the RIAA gets some brains and realizes that it should try to embrace digital music rather than fight it. And they decide its not worth the money to go after the .05% of the population who pirates music, but comes up with ideas to enhance their products to the 99.5% of the population who would pay for it. Lets say they decide to drop DRM altogether. This would now allow serious competition for online music AND digital music players. Because now, anyone could purchase music online from any online store and could play it on any digital music player. I question how long Apple would keep the DRM on their software to keep people locked in to the iPod. Would they only drop it if people stopped buying from iTunes? Or would they drop it immediately.
Folks, this isn’t about Apple’s DRM vs. Microsoft’s DRM. Its about DRM vs. no DRM. And Norway is looking out for the consumer. I know thats kind of hard to understand to us Americans who’s elected representatives only look out for the interests of corporations.
Jeff writes: “Folks, Norway isn’t going after Apple.”
I am afraid you are wrong on that one. They are going after Apple. The motivation is not consumer protection. It is Microsoft protection. All Norwegian government agencies are completely in the pockets of Microsoft. They actively promote a Microsoft monopoly in their digital efforts. An ugly example can be found in the way the Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) handles the programming that goes out over the internet.
After much straining, some people in the Consumer Council have found some legalistic tricks they use to go after Apple. In this case they are not interested in consumer protection. The whole thing originated with a government-employed, Microsoft-inspired Apple hater. I have read the original documents.
That said, Norway does indeed in general have much better consumer protection laws than do the USA.
Here´s a little something to clear Your heads…
“We’re not specifically targeting iTunes Music Store DRM – MSN Music was explicitly mentioned in our original complaint together with CDON.com, Music Online.no and Prefueled.com and we are asking that their conditions also are evaluated against Norwegian law. This has been in there since the original filing”, says Torgeir Waterhouse, senior advisor to the Norwegian Consumer Council (Forbrukerrådet).
Since, however, iTMS is the leading store for online music also in Norway, iTMS has been picked to test the waters of the Norwegian Marketing Control Act; legislation passed by the Norwegian Parliament in the spring session of 2005 where consumers can legally break copy protection of CDs to play them on “relevant equipment”. According to the same legislation, Windows Media Player and mp3 players from competing manufacturers like Creative must be seen as “relevant equipment” for electronic music files acquired from iTMS.
Norwegian copyright legislation was for all intents and purposes harmonized with EU legislation in 2005, however with a twist where the legislator use the term “relevant reproduction equipment” giving the consumers the right to break copy protection schemes if the copy protection mechanism for instance is a hindrance for playing a CD also on a PC.
“The regulator said it was not reasonable that the consumer must sign up to a contract regulated by English law, rather than Norwegian law. It also said iTunes must accept responsibility for damage its software may do, and said it is unreasonable to alter terms and conditions after a song has been sold.” according to The Register.
“The Consumer Council has asked Apple to respond as to whether iTunes should work on other platforms – they have until June 21 to respond. After that the Council is likely to set another deadline and then start fining the company.”
Fairplay is one of the nicer DRM setups and i dont mind it because Im hooked on the iPod. But that is not to say that I dont hate DRM and that it only prevents the most technically inept or least determined consumers from circumventing their tracks DRM. The majority of those people will continue to use the iPod regardless. I understand that music is a business and that for it to succeed there must be a profit, but what the labels need to do is let the artists make the music they want to and not just be near carbon copy of what is already selling. There is too much repetition today, and while many great groups borrowed or pilfered parts of other groups they tended to make it their own. Todays bands very rarely sound different from each other and their skills are simple at best. The need for DRM is only to prolong the outdated music business model of the 20th century. Thats what’s so great about the Net it allows for groups to post songs and gain popularity until an indie label picks them up and records them to disc and can help them get started touring.
trying to follow this – and admittedly not doing good job…
but are you saying that the DRM is an example of poor consumer protection?
seperately – isn’t the DRM trying to protect the artist? Where does the artist fall in all of this?
cb
Whatever, Bjørn.
The group called FairPlay “an unreasonable technical term of use, in so far as it prevents purchasers of music files at iTunes from using other MP3 players than iPods. The sole purpose of this type of DRM is to lock consumers into buying products from a dominant market player.
What’s the big deal? iTunes DRM, the fact that iTunes works with only eight different varieties of iPods, or both?
First, Bjorn complains that non-iPod users are excluded from iTunes, then he bitches that iTunes isn’t good enough for these PC-centric consumers because of FairPlay. The stupid ass just can’t make up his mind what he’s so upset about.
Why can’t the manufactures of these PC-only devices also sell adapters and software for use with iTunes? Seems that Bjorn’s beef is with these bumbling bozos, not Apple.
I suspect that that Bjorn may be exhibiting buyers remorse for purchasing his PC-only Phillips GoGear Key014 MP3 Player and hooking up with MSNMusic.com. Well, Bjorn, it sucks to be stupid, but don’t blame Apple for your bad consumer choices.
I never hear about Mac users complaining that they can’t use any other music store. Poor bastards must not know what their missing, huh, Bjorn?
“Consumer Ombudsman Bjørn Erik Thon told TV 2 that Apple iTunes would either have to change their practices in Norway or pay fines.”
No. Apple could just pull out of Norway altogether, couldn’t they? Bang Bang You’re dead.
If you’re too inept to know how to burn a CD, then you deserve DRM. And it’s not like FairPlay is installing any rootkits or anything **couggSONYcough**, so it’s not disgustingly overprotective. Without the DRM, the morons that run the record companies wouldn’t provide music for iTMS, so there.
If Norway is going to bust Apple’s balls about DRM, they need to bust Microsoft’s balls as well!
@Nordfart – Nice link! I don’t know if that was the actual link you intended, but it is indeed HILARIOUS. And to think – these people are serious. LIVE SEX to save the rainforest? Ha! Unbelieveable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Ay – I appreciate the explanation…
Being Norwegian, and also working at an Apple reseller/service provider, I’m glad someone with some influence is finally criticising Apple. The past years Apple has shown no interest in following Norwegian laws, claiming that it, as an international company, doesn’t have to.
The recent complaint is not so much about DRM, but rather the fact that iTMS wants us to follow British law, and the fact that Apple somehow give has the right to change your rights to use music you already have bought.
Although Apple’s DRM is not that bad, giving you the right to burn your songs to CDs, copy them to your iPod and play the songs on different computers, Apple has, according to the terms of use, change all this so that it one day won’t be possible anymore.
According to Norwegian law this is not legal and I really hope Apple is forced to change this.
Also, Apple doesn’t care about our consumer laws. Any product sold in Norway is basically supposed to last for a certain amount of time, and if the product fails those selling the product is responsible for repairing it. Apple, unfortunately, doesn’t care about this, creating lots of negative marketing on its way. Every iPod dealer in the country is furious, as few iPods last for the minimum two years (mobile phones and computers are among those products defined to last at least five years, and an iPod might as well, although there are no legal rulings about it yet), and Apple refuse to give any compensation to its dealers (which they also are obliged to).
When talking to Apple support they now even encourage you to talk to the consumer council, as its obvious for even the representatives you talk to that what they are doing is against the law. The faster Apple is brought to court the better they say, refering to the lawyers and management of Apple Europe.
Yes, I agree with the previous post. The DRM is mostly the record companies’ fault but the Norwegian complaint is much deeper:
– Apple cannot require Norwegian consumers to comply with foreign laws.
– Apple cannot be released from the damage caused by the usage of iTunes and the purchased items
– Apple cannot modify the terms of service at any time.
To me, those ideas sound like common sense and I am a HUGE Apple fan.
to ignorant americans:
Norway and Sweden are two different countries
These people must be PC users, evidenced by their IQ level of the early shimpanzee!
Oh brother, when do these morons stop!
These people are just too stupid to understand that there needs to be a some protection for the artist and the labels.
Very well put… IQ level of monkeys. Monkeys don’t need iTunes or iPods… they need iBananas….
Just a bunch of GREEDY lawyers trying to RIP OFF all Apple users!
@: A norwegian working at an Apple reseller/Service p
—> I am glad to hear a native Norwegian’s point of view on this topic. It makes me look at things from a different perspective. You make many good points. Interesting – thanks for the input.
“…not worth the money to go after the .05% of the population who pirates music, but comes up with ideas to enhance their products to the 99.5% of the population who would pay for it…”
I have to question your statistics there… If the people who package and distribute popular music were only losing .05% of their investments to piracy, then why would they spend millions to stop it? From 2002 statistics:
– An estimated one in three discs sold were pirate products.
– …global piracy level reached 40% in the context of a shrinking legitimate market…
– More than 50 of the most popular titles of 2002 were seized and illegally distributed before their release dates.
Artists and record companies have been getting a**-raped by pirates for several years now, therefore DRM. The simple fact is that the only people who are upset by ITMS’ liberal file protections are people who want to illegally distribute music without the hassle of circumventing its DRM.
Typical whining Nordics.
yoyoyo your homegirl maggie