The Committee to Fight Microsoft (“CTFM”), the first civil rights and consumer action organization in cyberspace, will held a San Francisco news conference yesterday to announce that it has begun a campaign to block Microsoft Corporation from releasing Windows Vista to the general public unless and until Microsoft offers a general and unconditional warranty to purchasers that the program does not include “bad code.”
The Washington, DC-based CTFM celebrates its tenth anniversary this year.
“Bill Gates sells the public defective products,” says CTFM Executive Director Andy Martin, “And then expects us to spend years being his guinea pigs, while he corrects the myriad of defects and vulnerabilities in his defective code. This is mass consumer fraud. It is unacceptable corporate behavior. Over four (4) years after Windows XP was released I still receive regular ‘updates’ and ‘bug fixes,’ which reflect a product that was originally scandalously defective.
“Windows 95 was a disaster; it took three years to correct the major deficiencies. But the 95 fix, Windows 98, only created new vulnerabilities, and required yet another round of fixes for Windows 98. On and on it goes. No other company in America gets away with selling defective products and then expecting its customers to wait years for proper product operability.
“When computers were a tool for techies, bad code may have been understandable. Today computers are a mass consumer product. The idea that hundreds of millions of people should have to have a similar ‘XP’ as users of Windows XP is unacceptable.
“Two other unacceptable scams that Microsoft has used over and over again are to encourage people to ‘upgrade’ unsuitable old computers, and to encourage manufacturers to sell underpowered computers. XP was authorized for 128 RAM, which was clearly inadequate. Who would buy an inadequate TV set? Or an inadequate stove, that didn’t get warm enough? Or an inadequate refrigerator that didn’t get cold enough? No one. Why should someone buy or ‘upgrade’ an inadequate computer on Bill Gates’ say-so? The Committee to Fight Microsoft is launching a legal action effort to bar such practice, in advance, for Windows Vista. Bill Gates, you are on notice.”
Adjunct professor of law Andy Martin created the legal theories that led to litigation by state attorneys general against Microsoft. He founded the CTFM during the second round of federal litigation against Microsoft, and was an opponent of the original 1994 settlement.
Andy Martin has served as founding Executive Director of the Committee to Fight Microsoft since 1995.
Contact info:
Andy Martin of The Committee to Fight Microsoft, 1-866-706-2639, AndyMart20@aol.com
Web site: http://www.andymartin.com/
sign me up!!!
Brilliant. I hope this one sticks. We should make as much of an effort as possible to get this picked up by the mainstream media
Surprised it didn’t happen sooner. If I was a windows user, I’d be pissed too.
You have got to be kidding me. That has to be one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read. I’m surprised MDN is even publishing it. These guys are idiots. If MS is guilty, then Apple is guilty as well as any other software vendor who has ever built an app that crashed. Stupid, and MDN should be ashamed to stoop so low as to publish this crap out of pure misguided spite.
Dick Hurts,
try using a woman instead of your hand, .. you know.. it feels a lot better
I might like to kill MS just as much as the next guy but let’s put it this way: They can’t blame MS of shipping defective products and do nothing with any other peice of software (Tiger IS at 10.4.2 already; I know it’s far from being on the same level as Windows, heck, the same building, but still) A great plan with a great big flaw. The memory problem is not MS’s fault. It’s called ”Minimum Requirements” for a reason, people! Plus the computer makers are to blame for lack of memory in PCs. This CTFM should go ahead with their concept but with a different reason behind it. Oh, and change the name… we know you’re all Mac users so just call your selves Jobs for Microsoft CEO : JMSCEO
This is what all software vendors do! Look at Apple: Every major release of the OS brings a new round of fixes that last the 1 – 1 1/2 that the OS is around and then mac users pony up another $129 to upgrade and they start the cycle over again.
It isn’t just Apple – all software companies do that. This is simply plain stupid.
Me too!
the big difference is apple isnt upgrading because of major security issues or bad code… sure they have updates… but theyre free… look at 10.2.8 or 10.3.9.. you can run them now without problems and not have to upgrade to tiger… apple updates add more features and improve performance.. its all about evolution.. in windows case.. there are major security updates because of bad code and loop holes in the os.. their updates are crucial to the user because their comp is so vulnerable without them… this isnt so with apple… everyone has updates.. the differences lie in what they update! get a clue people!
He’s right. Apple’s updates for the most part are optional vs. Windows updates are crucial. I’ve never had my Mac contract a virus after 12 minutes online because I didn’t update it. How many PC users could say that if they never did the SP updates!
This is some dopey sh%t. Apple is not completely pure on these issues, though of course it’s much better. All this will achieve is clogging our courts and adding a de facto “lawyer fee” to the price of computers. Consumers should just stop buying a weak product. Eventually, they will.
Heh, a Lemon Law for Windows
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But this would affect apple, too. There are serious bugs that ship with OS X that have people in an uproar until the fix is released. Tiger was released with a significant internet DNS flaw that had the discussion boards at Apple.com all lit up. Currently my printer can’t even work with an airport connection due to Tiger. My network connection requires a reboot just to get the network speed full again, even though all the settings are correct.
Apple would be forced to hold off OS releases until they are fully baked, a long process indeed.
My two cents:
That part about computers being sold with just 128MB ram, meeting Microsoft’s recommended minimum spec…
Well, I sort of agree that its stupid to have something that just about runs, but its also unfair to say that other consumer goods are not like that.
Go to any of those home appliance stores, and you’ll see a diverse range of fridges, microwaves etc, all with different power usage and features etc. All depends on what you want to do. To use a car analogy, you can buy a mini cooper, and it’ll run.. just not as fast as a Ferrari, not will it store as much as a Humvee.
Sic ’em Andy!
BTW, I’m not saying that Microsoft’s coding is perfect – i also agree that there’s alot to be desired in it, made all the more glaringly obvious since switching to a mac mini – but sweeping statements need to be clarified and put into perspective first.
Afterall, it wasn’t long ago that Apple only shipped computers with just 256MB ram, that was deemed to be “just enough to run with”, but ideally should be (and thankfully, now is) standardised at 512MB. I just hope that this kind campaign doesn’t start getting too extreme. Then again, maybe it will help raise standards across the board on all OS’s. I think I’ll sit on the fence and see how things pan out on this one…
This is dumb. We all know Microsoft releases garbage, but how do you honestly define “bad code”? I wager there’s some “bad code” littered all throughout OS X, even if the majority of it is great. If you don’t like Windows, you don’t have to buy it. There are alternatives, like Linux and OS X. And if you don’t like the alternatives, then you’re free to write your own, or else don’t use a computer.
If you don’t like Windows, you don’t have to buy it
—
yeah.. tell that to Dell and HP..
there are no alternatives.. Cause Apple won’t license and Linux is not mainstream
And I like it
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cute, but complete bs…
caveat emptor
Andy Martin, of the “Committee To Get People To Notice Me”, today launched a self-aggrandizing website showcasing his time in Vietnam (which he apparently never learned how to spell) and several of the cause du jours upon which he has wasted untold hours of the court’s time…
How seriously are we supposed to take someone with an AOL account?
I agree there is a lot of hype in this orginisation’s stance about this issue, but you have to look at a few things:
1) If they toned it down a bit about software patches indicating defective product and focussed on CRITICAL flaws/security issues they have a point. As someone else has pointed out all software vendors have fixes/patches, however Microsoft is alone in have SO MANY CRITICAL flaws and necessary security patches.
Lets face it, Windows was designed as a DESKTOP/stand alone OS, it was NOT designed for networking, and especially the internet, as a result all those ports are left WIDE open by default and for the sake of expediency when Bill Gates FINALLY realised the INTERNET may be a go-er, crappy internetworking standards and settinsg were tacked ONTO Windows.
Sure the newer versions are improved, but in the DESPERATE need for backwards compatibility they still are as secure as Swiss cheese out of the box.
2) I find it amazing that an organisation like this exists. Whether you agree with them or not, you have to agree that their very existance highlights the difference between Microsoft and MOST companies, but especially Apple.
Only Microsoft enjoys market domination whilst being so universally disliked in general. Whilst I agree only a small MINORITY of people are as strongly anti-microsoft as these guys, go and ask the average person at your work what they think of Microsoft as a company. In my experience the answers are sometimes VERY negative, mostly negative, rarely indifferent and even more rarely glowingly positive. They are seen as a necessary EVIL.
Customer satisfaction is VERY low, but most have accpeted the myth that they have NO choice if they want to write a letter, or create a spreadsheet and want others to be able to “read” it.
However if Apple sales are any indication, there is a small, yet significantly growing portion of people realising that this is NOT true.
my 2 cents,
Luke
excuse typos…
I’m at work and so was just hammering it out!
Luke
One has to admit that they do have a point.
The scale is astonishing on which Microsoft have managed to put over to the world a software system attempting to do what OSX does is quite unnaceptable!
It is a bit of a stunt of course. But often in real life perception becomes reality, and this helps the perception so I’m happy to promote it. After all, the main beneficiary will be Apple.
Share price in 24 months will be >$100.
re: This is some dopey sh%t. Apple is not completely pure on these issues, though of course it’s much better. All this will achieve is clogging our courts and adding a de facto “lawyer fee” to the price of computers. Consumers should just stop buying a weak product. Eventually, they wil
YES – BUT AT LEAST YOU DON’T HAVE TO WAIT YEARS FOR A BUGGY UPDATE!
APPLE ALWAYS sends out updates quickly.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A COMPANY OF MICROSOFTS SIZE!!
THEY ARE TAKING THE PISS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MONOPOLY – IT’S CALLED ‘SCREWING YOUR CUSTOMERS’.
On a scale of 1 to 10 in stupidity arguments this one ranks pretty close to the example for a “10”.
If this case were to win it would open the door for litigation against every software developer.
Quit trying to compare software and computers to other consumer products. They aren’t the same!!
If you could you’d then have to launch a law suit against car manufacturers because once the tank of gas runs out your car doesn’t work as advertised. Next you’ll sue Apple because your computer doesn’t work as advertised unless you plug it into power. They don’t mention this is required so it must be a product defect!
Magic Word “pattern”: as in a pattern of stupidity doesn’t make one smart!
If MS has it’s way, we’ll be driving cars in the future controlled by Windows. One day, you’ll be driving along, the car will suddenly take over, drive you to a bad part of town where you’ll be held up for all your money.
Seemingly people will think this is Ok.
They are asking too much. I’d be satisfied if software was legally required to perform all its advertised functions perfectly (i.e., doing that it is supposed to do without error messages, crashes, etc.). As it stands, sometimes advertised features are not fixed until the next paid update comes around, and a free update is never released. I think that is truly scandalous.
The difference between Windows and Apple users is the overall customer satisfaction and how each company reacts to customer feedback.
Apple users don’t have the same problems that Windows user do. They dont have the same amount of maintenance, *ware, viruses and crashes. This is not a Mac/Windows war, this is Windows users who have gotten fed up with promises of better software and not getting it. Even promises of correcting problems in software that you’ve already purchased and not getting it.
Windows users have the same right to an OS that doesnt cost them money and downtime in the long run just like Apple users expect.
You paid for it. You should expect better. This group is letting Gates know that you’re not taking less and paying for it and that hes doing a lousy job. He’s had years to create a better OS. He’s got enough of your money to hire the best programmers on the planet. You decide, hows he doing? If you have any doubts as to his performance, you sould add your name to the list and start bitching.
My 2
Waste of time and would just mean more frivolous lawsuits. Companies wouldn’t want to develop anything. There is a limit to how much you can guarantee. Also if you don’t like Microsoft there is a better alternative called Mac OSX.
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Maybe, but you have to admit MS has gone way beyond those limits. And this may change the way software is tested and debugged BEFORE making the user try it.
BTW, I have a G5/Tiger, an old Pizmo PB, an 8500 and a 9650 on a home network. But I still think that Windows users that have either been brainwashed or have a large investment deserve better. I’ve know a few windows users and what they have had to go through.
I’m a little late coming into this conversation but after reading everyone’s opinions, I was wondering what the backlash would be if (and that’s a bif “if”) M$ cleaned up its act and started producing an OS that wasn’t prone to spyware, malware, viruses, etc? Companies like McAfee and Norton would be out of business!!
I think Bill Gates should be commemorated by the President for producing new jobs in the tech market! What would happen to all those people’s jobs if M$ actually made something right?!
And AOL can stick that apple crumb cake up Billy Boys….well, you know….
“Windows users have the same right to an OS that doesnt cost them money and downtime in the long run”
– I seemed to have missed that part in the Consitution.
– MS never claimed that Windows would work with every piece of hardware in existence. Problems due to incompatible hardware isn’t strictly MS’s fault.
– Even though MS may have made insecure software, they are not accountable for the malicious actions of those with criminal intent.
– If people are unsatisfied with MS, then don’t buy it. Nothing tricky there. At most, they should probably add a disclaimer to their products, which I think they already have by saying they are not liable for financial problems caused by their software. CTFM needs to get a life. There are times to hate MS, but at least be rational when you do it.
As long as hackers/*ware programmers write, those companies will never go out of business. They will get more sophisticated and better at their trade and remember, theres a lot of money to made.
Eventually even the MacOS will be hit, not as bad as Windows/Vista but hit nonetheless. Enen though MS and Apple (an other OSs) will be putting out patches/updates they may not be able to react fast enough.
And yes, Gates should be commemorated by both the Prez AND his fans.
camus
… MS never claimed that Windows would work with every piece of hardware in existence
Then MS shouldn’y have advertised that the OS is plug and play, because this is misleading cutomers into thinking ‘I can add anything to my box and it’ll work’
…There are times to hate MS, but at least be rational when you do it.
And how many years of being rational do you want to wait b4 saying this is enough?
If you purchased something and it ran as well as Windows, wouldn’t you want your maney back or some other sort of satisfaction?
…If people are unsatisfied with MS, then don’t buy it
Unfortunately there a lot of users that are either afraid of changing, have gotten bad information concerning other OS’s or have gotten soused to the daily crap that they do things out of habit.
And this last point was something that was brought to my attention by an at-home-Mac-user that supported Window users during the day. He told me that no matter how hard he tried to convince the powers that be to change, they took all their crashes/etc. in stride as though this was normal. You can’t fight this kind of mentality.
Why dont they stop their bitchin and just buy Macs…they are talking like they don’t have any alternatives.
As I stated in a previous post, there are reasons for not changing. Having to spend money for an alien OS may frighten many who possibly can’t afford it.
Maybe if they could rent a Mac for month, in this way they compare the 2 and decide. Rent with option to buy.
“Then MS shouldn’y have advertised that the OS is plug and play, because this is misleading cutomers into thinking ‘I can add anything to my box and it’ll work'”
– Hmm…plug and play isn’t exactly what I was thinking of. I was referring more to internal hardware. If Apple licensed Macs to all PC manufacturers, they’d have the same incompatibility issues as well. But since you’re talking about plug and play, Apple advertised the same thing for Macs implying that you can simply plug in peripherals and they will just work (necessary to save Christmas or however the ad goes) but that is not always the case just like Windows.
“And how many years of being rational do you want to wait b4 saying this is enough?”
– hating MS for personal bad experiences is rational. Trying to prevent a product from being released for reasons that afflict every software manufacturer is not rational.
“If you purchased something and it ran as well as Windows, wouldn’t you want your maney back or some other sort of satisfaction?”
– And I suppose I could demand my money back because the burger doesn’t really look like the picture, but I never do.
“You can’t fight this kind of mentality”
– Then don’t try to fight it. Why care about something that doesn’t affect you in any way whatsoever? Give someone information, but the decision is ultimately their’s. Fact is, a lot of people’s lives do not center around the technology they use.
This Andy Martin guy’s demands are completely unrealistic. Any manufacturer has a hard time creating a perfect, defect-free product. Why should MS beheld to a higher standard then say the automakers? Home appliance makers?, McDonalds? (McDonalds is being sued because eating lots of Big Macs can make you fat. Duh!!).
On top of all that, MS has the additional complexity of creating code to withstand the attacks of the large hacker community that wants to exploit Windows for malicious reasons. Talk about a constant running battle. For MS, this is a constant war. So, if you don’t want Windows and its associated problems, don’t buy it. As Nancy Reagan would say, “Just Say No!”. Before us Mac users demand that the other team be perfect, let’s keep in mind the realities of the situation and not give the appearance of lowering our collective IQ with stupid demands.
You’re right why fight it? dont you want a better product?
..And I suppose I could demand my money back because the burger doesn’t really look like the picture, but I never do.
But how much time do you spend on burger maintenance? How much money did you spend on your favorite burger? Can your burger handle email? If it was a refrigerator or an AC or a TV, would you ask for your money back? I know, burgers was just an example, though you could: false advertising, they paint and varnish the products for TV commercials
..Then don’t try to fight it. Why care about something that doesn’t… people’s lives do not center around the technology they use
But there a lot of people that work all day, and would like to use their systems for internet use, photos, music, and other diversions in their free time should be able to without all the associated maintenance, etc.
I’m a Mac user. I’m on your side. I’ve been using Mace for about 8 years. I have been on the internet since day 1. I (or my kids) have never had any of the internet maladies that Windows users have. If you are a Windows user how do you feel about your OS? How often do you need to do maintenance on it? How often do you need to check and delete *ware? How much have you spent in additional software and time in protecting it?
Telling MS/Gates that Vista should not be sold before it has been completely tested and debugged is not an unreasonble request. Dont use the user as the testing platform.
Yes, before you say it, Apple has their problems too. But not as pronounced as MS. And they have a better customer realtionship. Upgrades are availble automatically (if you want) through software update and if you want to skip a major upgrade, you can. Pay for the one that you really need.
There is an implicit warranty between consumer and manufacturer that a product sold will work as advertised and intended. The software industry (not just Microsoft… nearly every software vendor is complicit) is really the only industry that defies this warranty. Microsoft is merely the most visible and most egregious offender.
With any other product, if the product does not function as intended, the customer either gets a refund, discount, or replacement. With software, the customer is informed that they will have to install a patch when and IF one becomes available, putting the onus of functionality on the consumer who receives no compensation for a product that should have functioned properly in the first place. This is unreasonable, yet we’ve all come to accept it as a fact of life.
Meanwhile, software makers are constantly shilling out new versions and upgrades that add more often useless features, but don’t address the bug fixes that people expected to be fixed with the releases. In essence, people are duped into believing that the upgrades they PAY for will fix the defects of the previous releases THEY PAID FOR. Quark and Adobe immediately come to mind as serious offenders of this.
ALL software makers need to take more responsibility in testing their software and not rushing it out to an unsuspecting market. As consumers, we should expect software that has undergone rigorous testing so that it functions as intended and advertised. We DO have a right to get what we paid for.
…complexity of creating code to withstand the attacks of the large hacker community that wants to exploit Windows for malicious reasons…
If their code wasn’t so sloppy they wouldn’t have a large portion of the problems. But they never had to account for their code untill recently…all the *ware thats been hitting Windows machines.
And since when is wanting a decent product a ‘stupid demand’?
I dont see other large software companies having this worry because most of the others have programs that have been better tested and debugged. When there are problems, they at least make to the effort to patch/upgrade in a timely manner. Can MS say the same?
And by the way, this is an opportunity to see Gates squirm. CTFM seems to be disgruntled Windows users anyway.
Gates is just playing catch-up to Tiger with Vista. And, Apple is a moving target.
Well said, Hemorrhoid Rage (now theres a vision for ya)
Hopefully this will make all developers write better apps/OS’s (if it has any effect)