“Wall Street greeted President Bush’s reelection with a broad stock market rally Wednesday, led by sectors thought to benefit from his policies – and potentially threatened by a Kerry administration. Shares in defense, energy, healthcare and pharmaceutical companies were among those posting big gains,” Josh Friedman and Thomas S. Mulligan report for The Los Angeles Times.
“With a stronger showing than he achieved in the disputed election of 2000, Bush is expected to quickly pursue his top legislative priorities, including creating individual Social Security accounts that taxpayers could manage on their own. Such a system could be a windfall for Wall Street powerhouses such as Citigroup and Morgan Stanley,” Friedman and Mulligan report. “Wall Street’s relief over the Republican incumbent’s victory is likely to continue in the short term, some strategists said, noting that stocks had been trading sideways since the summer amid political uncertainty and terrorism fears.”
“Technology stocks were mixed Wednesday, and it was not clear what effect, if any, Bush’s win had on the sector,” Friedman and Mulligan report. “Stalwarts such as Microsoft and Dell were up, and Apple Computer of Cupertino, Calif., hit a new 52-week high, gaining $1.81 to $55.31. But semiconductor stocks were largely down, as an industry trade group cut its forecast for chip sales in 2005. Silicon Valley Manufacturing Group President Carl Guardino said that one threat – the possibility that Kerry would make it tougher to send work offshore, a common tech practice – was eliminated by Bush’s reelection.”
Full article here.
let the political flames begin
you suck…
no, you suck… yada yada yada
George Bush will kick terrorist ass for anohter 4 years! Yes!
Hey foregin libs,
go F*CK yourselves!
For now.
The economy is great and geting better! Thank god no Kerry!!!!
I don’t think God takes sides.
Idiots
Matt Dair has sex with farm animals!
yeah… cuz he’s done such a good job of taking care of terrorism… fool!
The Dumbest President Ever for another 4 years. We should do about the same on terrorism (nothing) and on the economy (lose jobs) and on healthcare (lose care for many). Meantime, Dumbya will appoint a few new supremes to make it illegal to have an abortion. Any woman that has an abortion will be tried for murder. Also will make it illegal for blacks to vote. (the last one was a joke, but it ain’t funny)
Kareem…
The US$ is in the toilet, all your well paying jobs are being outsourced (to those f*ing “foregin”-ers) and most new jobs are minimum wage. Yeah; great economy.
Near sighted fool.
No matter which side you are on, you gotta admit that these posts can be quite amusing
Gee defense and energy stocks up? You think that might be because The Dumbest President Ever is in bed with the likes of Halliburton and Enron??? The Arab Sultans must be happy today!
Worst…president….ever!
All of you tree hugging commie liberal punks should just back off of this great president. He’s the greatest leader since Hitler!
Note that I, Jay Rice, did write this. I suspect that someone who claims to be Jay Rice may come along later and try to deny it’s me, but it really is.
Oh, and how about that huge deficit and massive debt built up over the past four years? Your great grandchildren will love that.
That’s another Bush article.
I think we can guess how MDN voted
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Long time reader.
First time poster.
Pass the popcorn please.
The lift is only temporary. It’ll fall back down since oil prices continue to rise, the deficit continues to grow and the jobs continue to disappear.
I wonder if all the lies Bush promised in 2000 will come to fruition in his second term?
Let me answer that one, no.
I have 3 draft-age nephews. I fear for them. I don’t want to see them go off to fight another bogus war for this president. It’s all about oil, money and power.
MDN shamelessly trolling for hits.
What’s the matter, Paul Thurrott just picking on linux this week?
No the stock market didn’t rally, it had a small rise of around 1% which is within the usual days range. It will probably reverse today.
The dollar fell.
As usual US media gets it wrong, headlines that Bush is good for business mask the truth. The sentiment is fairly neutral, short termers are pro Bush, long termers are worried about Bush’s policies.
The US is slipping in to debt at the rate of 6% per annum, both the consumer boom and government spending are financed by loans from countries with massive cash surpluses like China and Saudi Arabia.
The US will probably declare Saudi a terrorist nation and seize the assets (cash and oil) as a desparate measure to redress the economic inbalance.
Your more fears
Scare more foes
“The US will probably declare Saudi a terrorist nation and seize the assets (cash and oil) as a desparate measure to redress the economic inbalance.”
You managed to discredit your entire post with your last full sentence. Liberals…
Funny how all those Americans worship the devil and think it’s (super-sized) God! God, of course, stuffs his face with double cheese burgers, carries a gun, has no interest in taking a vacation, and screws his sister rather than go to school.
Funny how nine harmless letters can have this strange country of overweight, insular rednecks boarding up their windows and quaking in fear T-E-R-R-O-R-I-S-T. Watch out USA the ‘evil’ world is after your pizzas!!
From the very start, Bush allowed and directly ASSISTED the BinLaden family to escape the US on the very first plane out of here. Soon afterwards, when US troops had Osama trapped, Bush handed the final search efforts to a known ineffectual group of soldiers from a 3rd-world country, greatly increasing Osama’s chances of escape. And even then, there was no serious effort to find him. In fact, as it as been aired many times, Bush DIDN’T CARE TO FIND HIM!!!
I have NEVER seen ANY president come so close to performing a TREASONOUS act by giving such blatant aid and comfort to the enemy. If it were a Democratic President and a Republican Congress, they would have nailed him to a cross on the White House lawn. Money from oil companies and Halliburton to both sides of Congress prevented any such thing from happening to Bush. Now he is in there for another 4 years to complete what he had started; the sale of the Iraqi oil, and as an added benefit, the continued war spending for the profit and benefit of Halliburton.
If the goal was to eliminate Sadam, a secret assassination team could have easily done it within a few weeks, and NO INNOCENT LIVES or US SOLDIERS would have had to die for it. But, such a plan would NOT net Bush and his buddies any profit from it. Bush would not get the oil and Halliburton would not get the billion dollar defense contracts.
Bush should not have been re-elected HE SHOULD BE PUT ON TRIAL!!!
If the market surged it wsa more because people had a sigh of relief that the election was definitive and over with. “Real News” probably has it right except for Saudi Arabia. Bush is far too close to them for that to happen.
Iran, keep building nukes, ’cause you know Bush is. I hope we survive.
Indian stock market did very well, more american jobs coming our way!
Aryugaetu,
Well said.
Aryugaetu said: “such a plan would NOT net Bush and his buddies any profit from it. Bush would not get the oil and Halliburton would not get the billion dollar defense contracts.”
Exactly. But don’t forget the convenient “fear carrot” he so effectively dangled in front of the “51%” (http://www.willthomas.net/Convergence/Weekly/Rigged_2004_Elections.htm).
Think about this – Rarely does an incumbent get ousted when in the middle of a war.
Hilarious that MDN posts another obvious (heavy traffic) story.
Hey… everyone ELSE is doing it…
heheh.
Osama Bin Laden can kiss mah ass!!
Oh yeah, for those of you gullible enough to believe a draft would happen, IT WON’T!!!
2 dumbass Democrats introduced legislation to bring back the drafts.
Yep, that Bush sure is amazing.
I’m really pleased about his truthfullness – how he grossly lied twice about serious international matters (not personal lapses – this is big league stuff) – why he went into Iraq, twice (imminent thread of WMD use, Al Quaeda connection, both grossly false). Obviously this is why people who feel values are important supported him.
I’m delighted about how quickly he turned the economy around – first president since Hoover to lose jobs (and there have been lots of wars and recessions since Hoover). Hoover can be given a break however, since a lot of the fine points of economics wern’t known then.
I’m delighted about how he lead the fight against terrorists. After getting the entire world on his side after 9/11 (heck, even Libya sent condoloences), he managed in an amazingly short time to turn that into rage and disgust, establish an Al Quaeda cell in Iraq (something Hussein was unable to do), give the weapons that WERE in Iraq to the terrorists, and boost terrorist recruitment spectacularily.
The way he turned the budget around is simply an out of the park home run, however – a 5 trillion projected surplus into a 2 trillion deficit and climbing fast.
His biggest accomplishment has to be business investment – for a paltry few million dollars, the phara industry managed to get a 100+ BILLION windfall by banning medicare from getting discounts on drugs. But this isn’t bribery, its “campaign contribution”. Yep, health care is NAILED.
continued…
Whether individual people like it or not, the American people have spoken. A clear majority have voted for President Bush. The 2004 election is now over, so let’s get on with the next 4 years in this country.
…continuation
As a mac guy, I am still ecstatic how he let the convicted felon, Microsoft, off with nothing, after the federal appeals court upheld the conviction 8 to 0.
Lets also commend him on his groundbreaking civil rights work – he sponsored a judge who wrote a paper justifying torture “as long as major organ failure didn’t occur” (rape rooms, presumably, would be allowed, future Husseins take note). For this little nugget (fortunately not accepted), this guy was appointed as a judge. Now if he can just get 6 more people like this on the supreme court, things would be perfect.
The environment is outstanding – the scrapping of the new source review for power plants is simply brilliant – this way the people in the north east will get killed off from air pollution increasing the vote for the right, over time.
Federal intervention is in great shape – not intervening when the energy companies were raping California (due to the foolish law California brought in, to be fair) is an outstanding example of what the government agencies should do in the future – absolutely nothing.
I am troubled by his lack of progress on domestic arms – letting the assault weapon ban lapse is not nearly enough. Hopefully in his next term he can see to it all high school kids are given stinger missiles, all adults tactical nukes, with AK47’s in cereal boxes for the little kids. You have to be ready, you know….
think that covers off the biggies…
In a democracy, it is required that the citizens THINK, not respond emotionally, particularily to fear mongering. And call bribe accepting politicans to account, starting with the biggest. And reactive partisans – mindless supporters of ‘their guy’ regardless of what he/she does, should be jailed for treason against the country.
For starters – why is it that Canada, with national health care for all, pays around 10% of its GDP on health care, and covers everybody, but the US pays around 15% and around 1/3 have no health coverage? Pay more to get less – why is this? And why isn’t there near rioting in the streets over this? And why isn’t the press completely freaking out over this travesty?
On the bright side, it is a near certainty that Bush will grossly overreach (look what he did the last time when he had a severely weak mandate), and will, I predict, finally engage the population at large against him. In doing so, he will disgrace extremism for a long time.
One thing you should note folks. When you use the “terrorists” you are describing organizations that propagate terror.
Blow up buildings like Bin did, yup terrorism.
Invade countries without the sanction of the UN like the US did, yup terrorism.
Think abou this Mr and Mrs USA. The japanese during WWII never signed the Geneva convention and tortured Prisoners of war. Pretty barbaric.
The United Terrorist States has sunk lower than this. You signed the Geneva convention, yet tortured Prisoners of war AND in an act that I would view as the greatest crime against humanity you published those pictures around the world.
So the next time you use the word “terrorist” Mr and Mrs. United Terrorist States, remember the world see it as a statement about yourselves.
You certainly have made it clear that you don’t care much for the free world. Well we have a different opinion. So be very careful, cause we will be watching.
Jeez, there are some real idiots on both side of the political spectrum. On the right we have people who think everything is just dandy in the world and Iraq in particular. On the left, we have people who think Michael Moore tells the truth.
Here’s my suggestion. Stop reading what other people think and DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!
Now! Covering all points brought up so far from the bottom up:
1) Bush didn’t lie, but he sure showed the world he’s incompetent as hell in using obvious questionable intelligence.
2) A President has very little control over the U.S. economy (regardless of what past presidents may have you believe).
3) The world has with few exceptions hated America for a few decades now. Wasn’t likely to change.
3) War requires a lot of money. Bush went to war. Therefore, debt went up. There really should be no surprise here, folks. Stop acting like you didn’t see it coming.
4) A draft will happen if there needs to be a draft regardless of who was voted President.
5) People who think Americans voted for Bush out of “fear” are being as ignorant as those who believe Kerry would win by a landslide.
6) America, unlike Israel, has a standing policy of not assinating government leaders (but if they want to go down fighting, that’s their prerogative). So no, we couldn’t just kill Saddam and be done with it.
—
You know, I’m tried of responding. I’m gonna stop here. And it looks like the Bush haters are out in force. I want to see some Kerry haters as well so I can point out how wrong they are too.
But these are my own thoughts. I’d suggest you all DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. If you still believe what you believe, then I have nothing else to say. Thank you.
“So the next time you use the word “terrorist” Mr and Mrs. United Terrorist States, remember the world see it as a statement about yourselves.”
Blah, blah, blah. ‘You tortured prisoners!’ ‘You took pictures!’ ‘They were (GASP) . . . NAKED!’
Well Boo-Frickety-Hoo! In war, SH!T HAPPENS. And guess what, Libs? In EVERY war.
Buncha crybaby whiners, all of you too afraid to look reality in the eye and do the real dirty work of keeping America safe. That is, after all, the MANDATE of the President.
And F*CK the U.N. No good, ineffective, socialist pukes. Everything they’ve touched, they’ve f*cked up! Never changes. That bastard Saddam spits on U.N. sanctions for more than a decade, doesn’t abide by the terms of the cease fire (Remember: There was no ‘First’ and ‘SECOND’ Gulf War, this was a CONTINUATION of the original), and fires on U.S. and coalition aircraft enforcing the No-Fly Zones almost EVERY SINGLE DAY — and you cry your crocodile tears for HIM!?! While most Iraqi’s are THRILLED to have him gone!?!
SCREW Saddam. And remember to thank this administration in ten years when the entire region has shifted toward democracy. Whiners.
And yah, I use a Mac. Would frickin’ go near Winblows shit. But not everyone who uses a Mac is a whining crybaby. Fight this cultural war in their backyard, not ours.
Oh, and Aryugaetu: ‘Have an issue? Here’s a tissue.’
Wow – that’s a thoroughly thought out foreign pol…
Never mind.
Hey, the voters are always right!
America is afraid. how could we vote for a guy who built his platform on God, Guns and (fear of) Gays. It’s all about fear and you cowards in the “heartland” are VERY afraid! quit holding the country back!
hey me:
regarding your points:
1. Bush obviously knew that he was using questionable intelligence. Bush isn’t brain dead, altho he clearly has public speaking issues. To state that such obviously questionable intelligence was fact is, in my view, lying. Sure its possible that he is so incompetent that he honestly didn’t know, but I’m confident he is more intelligent than that. At some point, after all, an exaggeration bears such limited resemblance to the facts that reasonable people consider it to be factually inaccurate, i.e. a lie. Sure, I’m making a subjective assessment that his misrepresentation was so deliberate, known and severe, it was a lie, but are you saying you don’t agree??
2. The President has no direct control over job creation beyond hiring government workers. Presidents can, however, severely influence the economy and job creation through their economic policies. And they do, and this is one of the major things presidents try to achieve. Deficits, in particular, raise interest rates over time and kill jobs, for example (but this hasn’t happened yet in the current US economic cycle). There are a variety of incentives that can be given to create jobs, but tax cuts to the wealthy aren’t high on the list.
3. The U.S. has a long history of alliances, working with others except for Vietnam, Iraq II. So, while there are always those who will never agree, there is a huge chunk of the world, especially the industrialized world, that will go along with reasonable US military policy. I was stunned by how broad the coalition was going into Afghanistan, and how much the world CARED DEEPLY about the 9/11 tragedy. What blows my mind is how Bush turned this respect, concern, desire to help away and launched an optional, irrelevant to terrorism war in Iraq. And, lied/grossly exaggerated about it to such an extent that most people in the US still believe that Iraq had something to do with terrorism.
4. War does indeed cost a lot of money. Presidents have been able, except for Bush II, to handle it. They start by NOT giving out massive tax cuts, since this is obviously extremely dangerous/reckless economically – cutting revenue while expenses increase.
…continued
Scrawny – you have the added honor of also being an imbecile! i bet you’ve never even been outside the USofA. You just sit here on your farm listening to the fear the present adminstration pumps into your head. you will live (and die) in fear forever…and i’m happy for that…because YOU deserve it. WAKE UP! you and god fearing imbecils like you are holding a once great country back!
WAKE UP!
…continuation
5. I have looked carefully at the facts and I cannot for the life of me understand why people voted for Bush (but I respect that, it is a democracy; I am deeply troubled by the abuse of the first amendement into the right to lie, however, along with the right to bribe, err, campaign finance but I digress). So, it seems to me that Bush got votes based on emotion, intangibles like character (while ignoring the facts that show a grossly flawed character, especially as regards honesty, integrity, intellectual maturity (recognizing that simplistic answers don’t work in the real world)), misrepresentation, since the facts point the other way. If anyone can point to facts that support Bush, I would be grateful (but keep them factual please).
I can understand how anti-abortion people support Bush, and Bush did a good job in Afghanistan up to the Tora Bora debacle (where is the congressional inquiry into that, by the way – that is another travesty).
Bush isn’t that anti-gay, by the way, he only reluctantly supports the constitutional amendment against gay marriage.
6. The U.S., especially (and the rest of the industrialized world) has railed appropriately against arbitrary imprisonment, secret trials (remember the Soviet Union?). Now they do it. This is a travesty. Sure some evidence needs to be secret, but secret trials, secret judges. Secrecy is ASKING for abuse, and Bush loves secrecy. Sadly, I know where this is going to end up. In this climate, tossing another ‘fundamental’ policy (not targeting leaders directly) surely would be tossed quickly if it was viable (and, actually, for certain cases, it would seem to be not a bad idea if there were some reasonable checks and balances).
I have, as you yourself have suggested, based my comments on facts, not emotions such as hatred. If I am mistaken, please illuminate me but don’t slander this as emotion/hatred just because you, for reasons I would like to understand but don’t, disagree.
1. “Blah, blah, blah. ‘You tortured prisoners!’ ‘You took pictures!’ ‘They were (GASP) . . . NAKED!’ Well Boo-Frickety-Hoo! In war, SH!T HAPPENS.”
Oh yeah? Show me the pictures published during the time of the conflict depicting torture of POW’s that were released publically. Show me, you have the entire net.
2. And guess what, Libs? In EVERY war.
Please, don’t associate me with liberal terrorist Amurdercans. And let me give you a lesson. Peace defeats war. Every time. It will this time to, so enjoy your war mongering while you still can. There will always be room for peace.
“all of you too afraid to look reality in the eye and do the real dirty work of keeping America safe. That is, after all, the MANDATE of the President.”
Yeah, well here is another mandate: To keep the world safe from terrorists. And you Terroristic Global Hating United Hates. YOU are the Terrorists. YOU are the threat to world security. YOU will be brought to a reckoning.
3. The UN. Weel something we agree upon. After all, what do you expect from an organization that has it’s headquarters on such a low level pissant type of country that deserves nothing more than to be shipped off to Mars as space junk.
4. Saddam, Bin and Bush, they are all part of the same crud.
5. I really enjoyed your whine, bring it on some more.
“you and god fearing imbecils like you are holding a once great country back! WAKE UP!”
‘WAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaahhhhhHHHHHHHHH’
That’s the sound of me calling the WAH-mbulance for you. Crybaby.
Been outside the “USofA” many times. Especially to Europe. Love some of the people — hate some of their politics. BTW, who the hell’s living in fear? I’m NOT living in fear because I see the effectiveness of keeping the fight OFF of our soil.
Let me guess — you’re probably a backer of what Spain did by caving to terrorist blackmail. Spineless cowards. And where, by the way, do YOU live?
I see women voting in Afghanistan, the Taliban disenfranchised, Iraq holding elections — gee, I don’t know, maybe I AM living in fear. Yah, that’s it. You’re right. Strength must equal fear. Yup. Success must mean I’m cowering. Hmmm. Didn’t realize it, but I, I guess you’ve set me straight.
***NOT!!!!!!***
The only ones who are FEARFUL (besides Islamo-terrorists) are those in western Europe who are pissed that they aren’t suddenly leading a New World Order! (Hint: Germany. Hint, hint: France.) Get over it. ANY nation’s first order of business is to defend it’s interests. That’s what yours does (wherever the hell you’re from) and that’s what the “USofA” does. That’s the way it is. That’s the way it’s ALWAYS been.
Oh, and real friendly and all how you called me an “imbecil” (sic) and are happy that I’ll “die” in fear. Real civil. Peace to all, brothers (sarcasm).
Pull your head out of you-know-where and open your eyes to the real world. This ain’t no Star Trek “One World Government”, pal.
Now, to the point of the forum: Mac success forever. Death to Microsoft terrorism.
<JackNicholson> “You can’t handle the truth!” <JackNicholson>
Some folks have questioned my saudi comment so I will try to demonstrate why it is not that inconceivable that Saudi is next. Already some recent events tend to indicate that direction, most notably the US withdrawal of troops form Saudi.
US citizens have great dislike for Saudi anyway due to the 9/11 hijackers and the perception that Saudi controls OPEC and the oil price. Making a case for ‘retribution’ would be much easier than making the case for Iraq.
USA has a history of aggressively reversing position on allies indeed most recent wars have been against former allies, Iraq and Taliban. The Bushies former and current relationships with the Saudis will be as nought if the Bushies think they can get away with the pot of black gold.
Saudi is the easier target, low population density, long coastline (not landlocked by non-supporters) and biggest reward (cash and oil).
Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian regime so ‘humanitarian’ can be part of the argument.
Saudi has mostly US/UK weaponry, so it’s (crippled) capabilities are well known. ‘American intelligence’ is much better from Saudi than Iraq.
N Korea and Iran are less accessible than Saudi, they are also less desirable. N Korea doesn’t have a pot of black gold, Iran is more populous, more educated, more capable and democratic.
Daniel Ellsberg has much to say on the subject.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_29-10-2002_pg3_2
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr;=&q=ellsberg+saudi+vietnam&btnG=Search
Watch out Osama, your days are numbered! Bankrupt, my ass!
Sure Am Relieved=nazi.
are you gay too,
most of us aren’t thank god! you are a pathetic panty waiste dude!
News Flash to you liberal, commie, foreigners – the majority of Americans absolutely hate you pathetic, piece of crap, whining, pussies. Keep crying all day, we’re laughing our asses off at you. Bush will continue to kick the crap out of terrorists and countries that harbor them. Get ready ass wipes. Terrorists, your days are numbered.
Dave H, your an idiot.
Why don’t all you America bashing sissies post what country you’re from in you posts. That will tell everyone a lot!
sorry Sure Am Relieved, my mistake, it was for the other guy (confused posts)…
Mitigating against is that Mecca is located in Saudi, occupying the number one shrine of Islam would be risky. But if you consider the Islamists haven’t been able to launch an attack on US soil for over three years then maybe they simply can’t, or the risk is small enough.
The oil really isn’t flowing out of Iraq like it should. With sanctions lifted and infrastructure maintained it was expected to triple, it is currently lower than before the war.
http://www.iags.org/iraqpipelinewatch.htm
(Iraq Pipeline Watch – Attacks on Iraqi pipelines, oil installations, and oil personnel)
…it was for Proud American (whatever that means)
For the U.S. to suddenly turn on an old allay like Saudi Arabia would take treachery to a new level. Not impossible, but a whole new level of deceit and dishonesty.
On the other hand, Saudi Arabia IS the primary source of Islamic terrorism, through their sponsorship of extremist islamic education in Afghanistan, Pakistan as well as at home.
So, if the US were serious about attacking the sources of terrorism, Saudi Arabia would be the #1 target.
This isn’t going to happen, in my view, because:
1. The U.S. military is already overstretched and can’t handle any more wars right now. And a draft to beef it up is politically a non starter.. This is the reason N. Korea and Iran are so busy building up their nuke programs – the U.S. cat is currently very busy and distracted… (I forgot to mention that one earlier)
2. The world would REALLY, REALLY seriously lose it if new wars didn’t have strong justification via the U.N. etc., so much so that U.S. exports would suffer, at a minimum, and other nations would seriously think about getting involved on the other side. Said another way, Bush has spent the good will/political capital from 9/11 on Iraq and there isn’t any more left (in fact he has a significant deficit) for another war. Of course, deficits don’t seem to bother Bush
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3. Saudi Arabia is the home to Mecca, and non Muslim people invading Saudia Arabia would be effectively a war on all of Islam. Massive. The reason Bin Laden hates the Saudis is because they invited the Americans in during Gulf War I. Islam, is, ahem, somewhat xenophobic, in some areas.
im just tired of the US. Presidents of weak nations have to lick balls to bush just to make sure he won’t invade us, or play the “terrorist” act on us, we just want some freedom, i don’t care who the f*** is US president as long as he stays and out of our politics and economy.
Don’t know who de hell he think he is to put in trial the world and exchange fear for “terrorism”.
Hello. I am Michael Moore’s ass. I smell bad, but I make loud noises. My owner is a fucking nutty liberal who pulls his ideas out of me.
“For the U.S. to suddenly turn on an old allay like Saudi Arabia would take treachery to a new level. Not impossible, but a whole new level of deceit and dishonesty.”
But given the fact that the Nixon administration threatened to invade Saudi in 1973, whilst the Saudis were playing hardball with oil in the wake of the Yom Kippur war thus compromising American military operations in Vietnam, it isn’t beyond the realms of possibility.
The threat was forwarded to the Saudi regime through the Aramco management. This is a matter of record and members of the Nixon administration’s State department have admitted as much in open interview.
Sure Am Relieved – thanks for your reasoned comments.
It would be really easy to persuade US citizens that Saudi deserves to be next. US could go alone, the rest of the world would probably not get involved. US troop numbers would be relatively small, NATO/UN in Iraq would free up enough. Saudi doesn’t really have any friends and it receives much jealousy and resentment if only because money pours out of the ground over there.
Agreed Mecca is a big issue.
I am sure Bush is feeling pretty omnipotent now, God and the US electorate on his side. I can’t imagine he holds the rest of the world in higher esteem than he did even a week ago.
Saudi is next? Haha haha haha hah aha ha hahah haha hah ahhah haha , eh eh ahha ah.
ahem.
hah ha hahe heh ahe, eh ha eh whew…
That’s like saying Bush would invade Texas…
Terror is defined in the dictionary as ‘extreme fear’. I suppose therefore a terrorist’s job – his role in life – is to frighten people.
Does this make Bush a terrorist? Or is he just competing with other terrorists to see who can scare the wits out of Americans the most?
The joke is: fear is always fear of the unknown – and as any responsible adult will tell you, the unknown usually doesn’t exist – it’s a figment of an immature mind… a bit like the American God perhaps?
Well you’re all retards if you don’t realize by now that Diebold won the election and Bush took the credit. Rove played the “Jesus card”
perfectly and now we’re stuck for 4 more years of big business and government sleeping together while we are the ones getting screwed along with the environment. You can kiss the constitution goodbye you Jesus freaks and watch antoheer 100,000 iraqi civilians DIE in the name of Christ.
I was enjoying that political forum below, I thought I would enter this one.
Peace and Love man spread the word..
no hang on a minute kill, mame, destroy..back on message now, gotta love what ya americans are doin for us, gee thanks!
Kudos to MDN for posting this same useless story 2 days in a row, as though The Dumbest President Ever somehow made the markets go up…
Who Would Jesus Bomb?
What Would Jesus Do For a Klondike Bar?
What Would Scooby Doo?
why not saudi, get a bit of democracy in there?!
perhaps north korea, yeah i dont like them
can I add America to the list?
Tom Brokaw reported that George W. has a higher (by one point) IQ than John Kerry
chris,
what country are you from?
I love it. You libs really are truly pathetic!
He must be clever, he convinced 59 million american’s to vote for him despite the sh1t he’s done.
Yeah, Chris, what country are you from?
Before ya’ll get up in arms about the Suadi’s I want ya’ll to know my bro has the Saudi Prince’s dick up his ass while he’s giving the Prince a reach-around. So please back off from the Saudi’s. They are NOT in ANY WAY connected to Osama Bin Laden. I reapeat. NO CONNECTIONS to Osama Bin Laden. Thank you.
Kareem, I’m from England
Well, Chris?
Country?
You won’t answer, though. As with most Libs, you just avoid the question and resort to personal vitriol.
I say again:
Here’s a frickin’ tissue. Boo-Frickety-Hoo.
Stocks are short term. Just like the benefits of Bush’s economic policy.
I have heard rumors that the election might have been fixed for Bush on the computer voting machines. Won’t make any difference but definately would be in line with my expectations for Bush.
Check out this link only if you can handle strong language:
http://homepage.mac.com/gebryan/blogwavestudio/LH20040823135839/LHA20041103120718/index.html
Oh, darn — he DID answer.
So Chris, how does it feel to have America defend your ass to the tune of billions of OUR tax dollars while you just puke on that same America?
I’d really like to understand what that kind of ungratefulness is all about.
I’ve still got that tissue for ya, though.
No charge.
Is is moisturised, I need comfort.
America, my dear friends, are joined by a considerable British contingent in Iraq. In fact 3 members paid for it this very day.
Wow! Lots of anti-American foreigners visiting this website!
More Anti-US here
Don�t miss the thread titled
“Tech stocks climb as Bush wins re-election”
obl is there calling all Americans “Nazis”.
The funny thing is all of these foreign anti-amercan low lives are just extremely jealous that they are stuck in there hell hole countries and don’t live here.
Bush = Great for Stocks and Economy!
‘how does it feel to have America defend your ass to the tune of billions of OUR tax dollars while you just puke on that same America?’
How have you possibly achieved this?
How is my arse defended by attacking Iraq?
Help me as an unbalanced liberal..please!!
Sure Am Relieved:
Fair enough. I’ll respond a bit.
1. I am saying that while I think it was utterly incompetent to assume Iraq had WMD at the time of the war, I certainly understand *why* the administration and congress (yes, congress too) assumed they existed. Iraq had WMD. Iraq used WMD. And even if Iraq had destroyed these weapons, they had the intellectual personnel/resources to rebuild WMD (not so much nuclear weapons, but definitely chemical weapons). However, just because Iraq had WMD and had used them does not necessarily mean they currently have them. Did Bush lie? I don�t think so. I truly believe he surely thought Iraq had stockpiles of WMD. However, his sincerity does not excuse him from not questioning the robustness of the intelligence. Lie? No. Incompetent? Yes.
2. The economic polices between Democrats and Republicans differ, and in my opinion neither is right or wrong. Democrats focus on the immediate relief by offering more tax breaks for the less wealthy and getting money into their hands now. With this policy we see immediately results. Republicans focus on the long term by allowing people who are proven effective money managers (the wealthy) to reinvest that extra money to help the nation grow overall. This in return helps everyone (even the less weathly), but the results are not seen immediately. Most millionaires are self made millionaires who got their financial security from saving and investing. My political beliefs lie somewhere in between. I understand the importance of providing immediately relief to the poor so they can get by a little easier. However, I also understand the importance of long term investment so that in the future, everyone will be better off.
And personally, I believe Alan Greenspan has more control over the economy than Bush does.
continue…
3. No, Americans and the U.S. are simply not well liked around the world. You have about 40 years of pent of disdain against the United States before 9/11. That doesn�t disappear in one night. Of course the world cared deeply about the 9/11 tragedy. That is obvious, completely understandable, and very much appreciated. But having sympathy for us does not mean they liked us any more than before.
I already touched upon the lying part in my first point.
4. I agree with you here, but it doesn�t change the fact that war causes deficits. People shouldn�t be surprised.
5. Bush won because his “family values” and morals resonated with many Americans. Iraq and terrorism were not important factors as many had predicted. I�ll leave it at that.
6. Powell has always been a major advocate against this type of secrecy from the beginning. But I do agree with your comment. However, my point was in response to someone asking if we were so concerned about Saddam, why didn�t we just assassinate him, in which my reply was our laws don�t allow it. Bush won�t get impeached for declaring war on Iraq, but he will be impeached if he ordered the assassination of Saddam Hussein.
Personally, I don�t like Bush, but that doesn�t mean I don�t understand why someone would support him. 51% of the nation voted for him after all. You must realize that they all can�t be dumb or ignorant or redneck or whatever other insult I�ve heard used against them.
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Your thoughts were well thought out. Thank you. Feel free to respond and I�ll check back tomorrow.
Hannah says:
“The funny thing is all of these foreign anti-amercan low lives are just extremely jealous that they are stuck in there hell hole countries and don’t live here.”
You’re probably right Hannah. I’m sure they’d love to move next to you with your rebel flag flying and cross burning in the front lawn.
Do you spit tobacco as eloquently as you write?
America doesn’t defend our ass to the tune of billions of your tax dollars. America did lend us billions in the second world war, which we spent buying over priced US gear, then we paid it back.
Then we pumped out our oil faster than anyone advised and at low prices in the 70s, 80s and 90s in order to keep the US economy going.
Yes the Brits are in this mid-east oil game with the US, the warring only really started when UK oil use exceeded supply. At least we are more reasonable in our dealings and are doing something about reducing our dependence on oil.
Posts from Brits tend to be a higher quality on this board
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Nic says:
“Bush = Great for Stocks and Economy!”
Are you serious? I’ve been waiting four years to see any movement in the stock market. I’m trying to save to send 3 kids to college, but it ain’t workin’ out too well. I’m sure the Bushies deficit spending trickle down economy is going to kick in any time now.
A two day bull run ain’t jack crap. That’ll get wiped out in one day when oil goes back up to $55 a barrel.
Twenty Benson:
“…a terrorist’s job – his role in life – is to frighten people. Does this make Bush a terrorist? Or is he just competing with other terrorists to see who can scare the wits out of Americans the most?”
With the Americans Bush and BinLaden have found it’s as easy as taking candy from baby!
Great election. Dig that stupid look on Kerry’s face when he called it quits. Bush wiped that shit eating grin off that face once and for all.
Even if Bush were good for the stock market and the economy (which he’s not) then I would be appalled that any of you would vote your pocketbook over your freedoms, liberties and principles.
John Ashcroft took away your freedoms and liberties. Don’t give me that shit about “has it affected you in any way?” I have not been affected, but when my fellow citizens have been affected, that is bad enough. One man spent 2 years in jail, accused of nothing. Patriot Act prevented him from talking with family or lawyers. After 2 years, Bush & Co. let me him out. That’s it – you’re done. No charges filed ever. Life ruined. “He was guilty anyway” is your answer, right? (you redneck sonofabitch) Well, we have basic rights according to our Constitution (at least we used to) to a fair and speedy trial. Even those that you are sure are guilty should get this. That makes sure the gov’t doesn’t just lock up people it doesn’t like. At least that used to be the theory.
What about other things that you’ve given up just so you can vote to lower your taxes or to get the stock market going? Oh, and unless you make over $200k a year (I do) then Bush really doesn’t give you shit back.
Money is nothing compared to your liberties, my friends. It comes, it goes. Your liberties may never come back. Especially with The Dumbest President Ever lined up to nominate a few supremes. Oh, by the way, he lied when he said he didn’t have a litmus test. He lied…again.
How does the US defend the UK to the cost of billions?
I know we let you base your listening post here in North Yorkshire, and we let you use the UK as a convenient aircraft carrier.
But since WWII, when has American military might actually been used to defend the UK – I was under the impression we had our own nuclear deterrent, we arguably have a better trained air force (in as much as we can fight an entire war without killing our allies), and you can’t keep Iraq under control without our help and experience in pacifying restive populations.
BTW, more Brits killed today in an area that has been agitated by heavy-handed American military action, so maybe you should be thanking whatever God you pray to that you have an ally over here that is willing to allow its sons and daughters to be put in harm’s way fighting a war that – by common consent – was based on misleading intelligence (and that’s the polite way of putting it).
Bush = dumb poo face
People who voted for him = dumber poo faces
America – Land of the free “christian” religious fanatics for four more years. God help us all.
Kerry got flipped and flopped said:
“Bush wiped that shit eating grin off that face once and for all.”
Wow, the depth of your commentary is staggering. Thanks for enriching all of our lives.
All of you with strong opinions are like Bush. Kerry is a thinker, he sees many sides of issues (perhaps too many for a president), that’s why he is perceived as a flip-flopper.
Belief in god or religion is belief. Belief Democratic or Republican philosophies are beliefs.
Thank you, America, for having the gooder strategery to helperate me win this electoration.
God Bless,
George “Chicken Fucker” Bush
Bush won! Bush won!
The stock market went up 1.75% today!
Things are getting better everyday.
Just think in January there will be democratic elections in Iraq. For the first time ever! Democracy and freedom for the people of Iraq – what is wrong with that?
The Bin Laden tape showed he is slowly giving up the fight, he showed he is weak. Australia and Spain got a bomb from Bin Laden before their elections. For the U.S. Bin Laden sent a video tape.
And a Thanks to the British soldiers in Iraq. Those Brits backing Tony Blair are the smart ones.
One good thing about Brits is they love to talk and talk and talk, but you never have to worry much about any action. Unless they are sodding drunk and at football (soccer) match.
stocks always rise after an election. go bush! kill some more soldiers for your rich buddies and stack the supreme court to overturn row v wade. go mdn drumming up hits.
100% of America lost the election; 51% just doesn’t understand yet.
Oh, yeah, and good news that Arafat is on the way out. Watch for big positive changes in that area of the world!
Yay Bush!
And MacBeth: “kill some more soldiers for your rich buddies”. tut, tut, tut. Your ignorance is showing. Does his rich buddies eat the soliders for dinner or what? Do explain your wisdom.
Next time tell the Democrats to choose a better candidate. Heck you Dems not only lost the Presidency (again), but ALSO the Senate and House. Now who is out of touch with reality?
“100% of America lost the election; 51% just doesn’t understand yet.”
Oh, Bob, that is so clever. I think I have read it today on at least 100 times on loser Democrat blogs.
Bob look in the mirror and repeat after me:
“We Democrats totally, unbelievably lost!
We lost the House, Senate and Presidency.
We lost. We lost. We are losers.”
(Bob, Do you realize the Democrats will be out of power for a generation or more – that�s like 20-plus years.)
Now after denial, anger, and blame comes
time to do a clean sweep. Get rid of the ultra-liberal Michael Moore, Howard Dean, John Kerry, Barbara Streisand, George Soros wing of the Democratic party and get back to the conservative-type Bill Clinton Democrat.
Hint: Think Hillary.
If Apple would bring out a dual 3Gig G5 we would have something funner to talk about.
It looks as if the USA and Oz have about the same percentage of self-interested unfeeling rednecks as we both have recently voted in mindless morons!
(I have resisted my initial impulse of calling them far worse things … but it is so hard!)
Well there goes the neighbourhood … when it comes to issues bigger than terrorism … such as the evironment, planet Earth is well and truly screwed. Both USA and Oz and most of the other supposedly “developed” (banana republic) countries are on a doomed spiral into resource overuse, environmental degradation and pollution. The greenhouse effect is real, just as ozone depletion was proved to be real (don’t argue about trivial uncertainties the stakes are too high!).
I wish John Howard and George Bush would wake up to themselves and try to save this planet from the human infection. City or Country, the people who don’t care are the real rednecks!
Best wishes and Good Luck to the rest of humankind and to our long suffering planet!
Yes, Thorpedo, America is a great country!
Glad you don�t appreciate it—-but then you aren�t an American!
I am sure you are doing your part to stop the greenhouse effect and ozone depletion by not driving a car or using any public transportation or using electricty or any of the things on the Green Peace list of wasteful unenvironmently things. (Yeah, sure. Ha. Ha.)
Too bad your parents did not have the same idea of “human infection” and had one less child…correct?
Pretty smart for the dumbest president how he won this election is a landslide.
You people must not believe everything some fat, unshaved bozo puts into a film, ala Goebbels. It makes you look pretty dumb.
Most of this diatribe has been debunked. Grow up!
There’s no substitute for the real Goebbels. Look at the exit polls and see that only caucasians favored Bush – ultimate proof that we are the master race.
Heil Bush!
Gee Folks,
we have a winner, an intelligent response from “not Thorpedo” (original name!) …
>Yes, Thorpedo, America is a great country!
>Glad you don�t appreciate it—-but then you >aren�t an American!
You may have not noticed, in your blind rage perhaps, that I included all “supposedly developed nations” as they have a longstanding habit of using more than their fair share of resources. A lot of countries have a great history, a lot of good and a lot of bad. I can appreciate the USA (America happens to be the whole continent!) in all its good and bad features. Besides the flood of USA culture I have spent many visits there and lived there for a considerable time. I was asked (begged) by my University employer to stay, but a combination of homesickness and unease with some parts of USA lifestyle brought me home (raising a family at the time).
>I am sure you are doing your part to stop the >greenhouse effect and ozone depletion by not >driving a car or using any public transportation or >using electricty or any of the things on the Green >Peace list of wasteful unenvironmently things. >(Yeah, sure. Ha. Ha.)
Obviously you only have a binary zero/one, on/off philosophy about solving problems: either ignore it/ or not. Rather extreme huh? Like political stereotypes!
Solving huge problems is not possible on an individual basis except in the sense of generating a groundswell of support. Where Governments should be truly helping out is with these big issues, sponsoring and encouraging energy saving and lower polluting approaches.
I agree I am not perfect, but I do my bit, and I know I could do more. I walk when I can, cycle when I can (I live in a city with possibly the best bicycle network in the world), and drive an efficient AWD four cylinder car for long trips (high fuel efficiency). I use the minimum of lights on in my home and have energy efficient appliances. I hope to eventually have an even more (passive/active) energy efficient home. What point is there to wasting resources rather than using them well? The latter is better and an interesting challenge as a bonus!
To be continued …
Continued from above …
>Too bad your parents did not have the same idea >of “human infection” and had one less >child…correct? **
So you are threatened by reality. From a particular, perhaps not very popular with rednecks, viewpoint one can view humanity as an infection, or as a parasite or even (if we wake up) as a symbiont.
Or are you just feeling threatened by logical discussion? Well planetary changes will happen without you, an ostrich with a (red?) neck in the sand!
** P.S. (They probably did have one less child, mathematically speaking, as they may have changed their mind. Think about it if you can!)
After all, politics is like football. All that matters is that your team wins. Who gives a shit about the economy, about having a job, about healthcare, about Iraq, or about civil liberties? What’s far more important is that my team won. That’s what I love about this country – that we hate our own citizens even more than the damn foreigners.
Stupid liberals! To the ovens with them all! Heil Bush!
Gee Folks,
we have a winner, an intelligent response from “not Thorpedo” (original name!) …
>Yes, Thorpedo, America is a great country!
>Glad you don�t appreciate it—-but then you >aren�t an American!
You may have not noticed, in your blind rage perhaps, that I included all “supposedly developed nations” as they have a longstanding habit of using more than their fair share of resources. A lot of countries have a great history, a lot of good and a lot of bad. I can appreciate the USA (America happens to be the whole continent!) in all its good and bad features. Besides the flood of USA culture I have spent many visits there and lived there for a considerable time. I was asked (begged) by my University employer to stay, but a combination of homesickness and unease with some parts of USA lifestyle brought me home (raising a family at the time).
>I am sure you are doing your part to stop the >greenhouse effect and ozone depletion by not >driving a car or using any public transportation or >using electricty or any of the things on the Green >Peace list of wasteful unenvironmently things. >(Yeah, sure. Ha. Ha.)
Obviously you only have a binary zero/one, on/off philosophy about solving problems: either ignore it/ or not. Rather extreme huh? Like political stereotypes!
Solving huge problems is not possible on an individual basis except in the sense of generating a groundswell of support. Where Governments should be truly helping out is with these big issues, sponsoring and encouraging energy saving and lower polluting approaches.
I agree I am not perfect, but I do my bit, and I know I could do more. I walk when I can, cycle when I can (I live in a city with possibly the best bicycle network in the world), and drive an efficient AWD four cylinder car for long trips (high fuel efficiency). I use the minimum of lights on in my home and have energy efficient appliances. I hope to eventually have an even more (passive/active) energy efficient home. What point is there to wasting resources rather than using them well? The latter is better and an interesting challenge as a bonus!
To be continued …
To be continued …
>Too bad your parents did not have the same idea >of “human infection” and had one less >child…correct? **
So you are threatened by reality. From a particular, perhaps not very popular with rednecks, viewpoint one can view humanity as an infection, or as a parasite or even (if we wake up) as a symbiont.
Or are you just feeling threatened by logical discussion? Well planetary changes will happen without you, an ostrich with a (red?) neck in the sand!
** P.S. (They probably did have one less child, mathematically speaking, as they may have changed their mind. Think about it if you can!)
Only faggots, women, black folks, mexicans, asians, and terrorists voted for Kerry. Only white MEN should be allowed to vote, just like in the good old days. Now that our man is sticking around for another four years, maybe he can illegalize abortion, illegalize non-Christian marriages, and keep those tax cuts for the wealthy coming. The working class is only useful in the front lines in the war on terror as far as I’m concerned – lazy stupid fucks. I hate that my taxes pay for freeloaders. Kill em all. What do they think America is about – a free ride? Bullshit, it’s about morals – good old fashioned morals – that’s why our man won it.
And here I was, thinking satire was dead.
Hey Free World, if you get baited into telling your country to a yank I can guarantee you 95% certainty that they will insult your past, genetic, involment in wars and political slantings.
Here is what to do if you find yourself in this situation. Remind them that they are barbaric terrorists.
This thread is amazing!
The one theme that is evident throughout all of these replies is a point that I make to a lot of my friends in RL – try as hard as you may, and with the best intentions, there are a few basic traits of human nature that cannot be removed or tamed, and one of them is man’s desire to fight.
It is in our blood to make war. As we have evolved as a species and have been able to control our environment, and in effect “domesticate” ourselves, we have taken away the challenges that were inherent in our evolution – building a home, hunting for food, protecting you territory. That is how were are genetically programed. Hell, it is how ALL things that inhabit this Earth are programmed – survival of the fittest!
Now, here we are in 2004. We have people from all over the world posting their views of US/World politics on this board, at least 90% of which are hostile. But thankfully this is the internet, and this is the one place where we can all have a war, and we can get our agression out, but no one gets hurt (aside from a few bruised egos). Seriously, could you imagine if all the people that have posted here were actually in the same room, saying these things to each other’s faces? It would be total pandemonium!! We would all be beating the living crap out of each other, lol!!! Biggest bar brawl you have ever seen.
The point I am trying to make is that regardless of how hard we try, and how much we aspire to an ideal of peace, love, and harmony, “world peace” is an unattainable goal.
Alright – Round 2 (ding, ding)
FIGHT!
Yes Ransath! Bring on the Civil War! I’d sure like to blow some of these Republicans away. They won’t think they’re so tough with a can of buckshot in their bellies! I can smell the blood and see the expression on their faces from here!
Bush is going take USA so down that you can�t believe it.
He will destroy the US economy big time.
That will be fun to watch. =)
I would vote for Bush if one person could explain how lowering taxes(income) and raising spending(iraq) makes basic accounting sense.
One Guy from Finland said:
“He will destroy the US economy big time.
That will be fun to watch. =)”
Listen, I’m from the U.S. and Bush scares me big time. He’s the worst president we have had in the last two centuries, he’s controlled by Christian reconctructionists and neo-cons, he’s making us a bigger terrorist target than ever before, he’s lost more jobs than anyone since Hoover, he’s pillaging the environment, and he is running the economy with smoke and mirrors.
BUT…….the fact that you want the U.S. to go down the tubes (and drag everyone else with us) doesn’t impress me one bit. I for one still care about this country and would like to see some positive changes made.
Unless you have something constructive to add, don’t bother posting anymore.
1. Thorpedo:
An AWD is less efficient that a 2WD, inherently, due to the extra mechanics and associated parasitic losses and weight. Not to diminish your efforts; taking a bike to work is a much bigger deal, fuel wise, than AWD vs. 2WD on long trips.
2. The commentators who use vulgarity and insults:
I am struck by, after removing the aformentioned, how little remains. It appears you don’t realize the message is “There is nothing to say – the other guy is correct”.
It also seems that you think the other guy is, in fact, incorrect, however. May I suggest you consider reason and logic to make your point in the future?
Personally, I am trying to understand factual reasons why people supported Bush and I’m not getting much, other than for ‘me’ (I don’t mean myself, but the person identifying themselves in the name field as, literally, me). I am waiting patiently, but I can’t wait much longer.
3. Ransath:
I think the reactionary urge to fight is a sign of misdirected aggression/competitiveness. Use the aggression the way it was genetically intended, to attack the problem, not the people/the messenger – don’t personalize it/let emotions take over reason.
I think some people/cultures/companies (Microsoft, for example) are deeply confused/unbalanced on this and go for the person/country/company, not the problem. And in doing so, fail to solve the problem (and die over time), lower the level of discourse/have wars/kill good companies etc. etc.
Trade, listening and learning are the great keys to world peace. Trade, in particular, is growing – you don’t declare war on your trading partner, for example. Now corruption – lying (it used to be called fraud and purjury) and bribes (giving politicans large sums of money, regardless of whether or not its called ‘campaign finance’) are severely problematic.
Some countries are banning campaign contributions beyond a low threshold, for example, but lying is proving hard. The way it is supposed to work is that people are supposed to have a free and vigorous press that exposes fraud and corruption. The press has been disturbingly silent recently in the U.S., however, so much so that a number of, in my view, gross lies are believed by the American people, today (Iraq had something to do with 9/11).).
Hi Solid:
“Unless you have something constructive to add, don’t bother posting anymore.”
Here is some constructive idea for you to think about.
Note how many comments here include “anti-American”. Well it isn’t that people are “anti-America” but rather “Pro World”. The United Hates hates the world right now but to put a nice spin on it, well I guess they just want to be victims.
These days though
United States Citizens = isolationist warmongering planet haters.
Free Worlders: collaborative peace loving globalists.
So remember, promoting better life for you, your family and the world requires you to be “anti-american”.
There was an election?
bryanvotedindie heres the idea:
Tax revenue is strongly linked to the number and size of the monetary transactions that take place within a system. The number and size of the transactions that take place is linked to amount of money people/entities have to spend. Lowering taxes allows those entities to keep more money and spend it. Raising taxes will tend to have the opposite effect. Too many games fail to model this effect. Kids play them and grow up thinking higher taxes equals more money. I’m afraid the real world isn’t that simple.
The war, in the short term, was not an economic decision. That said, there are positive and negative economic effects of war. Positive being that someone gets paid to build the munitions. Lots of munitions. This pumps money taken in taxes back into the sectors that supplies war materials. The negative side is the fear/uncertainty created by conflict. People tend to spend less when the future is uncertain.
I hope that helps. It was nice to see someone actually ask something intelligent here. I’ll crawl back into my lurking hole now. All you conspiracy theorists can continue spewing now.
Yeah Joe, we had an election in the US. I voted. Someone counted my vote. Someone tallied everyone’s votes. Someone was declared winner. Real exciting stuff.
Somehow, regardless of what most seemed to think, the sun came up this morning. The moon wasn’t red last night. The rivers here aren’t flowing blood. I haven’t seen any locusts flitting around…no frogs either.
Strangely normal actually. The coffee is especially good this morning, too
Something has occured to me. Imagine how much would get accomplished by all of you if you’d spend all this energy on something productive. You’re doing nothing for health care costs. All this anger and vitriol is going to cost a fortune in medical bills.
Which company manufactures Maalox? I think I should pick up some of their stock.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14832124&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=god-help-america-name_page.html
Me:
Thanks for your reply.
1. If Bush thought Iraq had WMD due to incompetence, it would be scarier than if he had lied, in my view.
I have, to, however, respectfully disagree: Bush isn’t that incompetent, in my view, and knew full well there wasn’t an imminent threat of WMD use. Saying otherwise is so grossly misleading, I think you have to call it a lie.
It is possible that Bush has hired such extremists that they managed to convince themselves there was an imminent threat (there is considerable evidence in support of extremists). Still, Bush had other, regular people point out that this was ridiculious, whom he chose to ignore.
Its not the presence of WMD or not – that is, I agree uncertain (although Hussein’s capability had certainly been degraded significantly), but the statement that there was an imminent threat requiring urgent and IMMEDIATE action.
The threat from Hussein was unchanged from the past, or more likely weakening over time due to sanctions, and Hussein hadn’t used them for years, so why would he start now?
Plus, after 9/11, clearly the climate had changed and Hussein surely knew he would be getting away with a lot less (not that he was getting away with much, from a warmongering perspective), so, in fact, you could argue strongly that the threat was clearly reduced.
The other thing that enrages me is the argument that Iraq was behind 9/11. This is, again, such a gross exaggeration that, in my view, I submit it is a lie. I could accept ‘gross exaggeration’ however, but I would say they are the same thing. The bi-partisan 9/11 comission stated clearly that Iraq wasn’t behind 9/11 – surely that is the final word here.
There are a number of other things. Let me mention one big one: the cost of the medicare drug benefit. Bush had an optimistic projection of 400 billion. Congress, knowing about optimistic projections, got the medicare accountant general (think that was his title) to check this out more neutrally. This guy found that the cost was 600 billion, told the white house but the white house ORDERED him not to tell anybody under threat of dismissal.
continued…
http://attenuation.net/files/iq.htm
CLICK IT!
That and the fact that DC voted 90% in favor of Kerry says a lot too. DC just happens to be the most politically informed place in the USA…
… continuation
This guy was so bothered by this he wrote up a resignation letter, but was convinced not to resign. He also got a lawyer since he thought he was breaking the law, since he is supposed to be working for congress also (apparently, the white house, as his nominal employer, can order this – they got a lawyer too). Needless to say, the House blew a gasket when they heard about this – both sides of the aisle.
So we have lying to the American people, the World, Congress, and your own Republican party.
I have to conclude that Bush is an incorrigible liar, and utterly corrupt, as far as truthfulness is concerned, and not about minor things but about the most serious things of all, including war, where people end up dying, and basic accounting.
2. Good point. Not to quibble, but all rich people aren’t effective money managers, particularily if they inherit it, but this is a small point.
The big point here is that you need to target the tax cuts to where they have economic benefit, short term in a recession, especially, but long term also.
General tax cuts for the wealthy are considered to not be that effective, generally, by economists (with a few exceptions). Still, you don’t want the rich to feel left out, so they should get some. Targeted tax cuts for the wealthy, such as encouraging needed investment, speeding up business writedowns etc. are much more effective, certain and direct.
3. Ok, now its time for some disclosure. I am a Canadian. Americans and the U.S. are well liked here, less after Iraq II, but still, most people like y’all.
Bush, here, is strongly/intensely disliked, but it is important to keep the two separate, and Canadians do.
Canadians went to war with the U.S. in Afghanistan, and, as a Canadian I’m proud of it. We stand up for our friends with more than hollow sympathy. To be fair, our country is small relative to the U.S. (10% of the economy, population, roughly), our military is smaller yet again (we underfund it, I’m afraid), but we did what we could.
Sure, a lot of countries are jealous of success and there is some resentment, but that is petty garbage. The U.S., prior to 9/11 was, generally, widely regarded as a beacon of hope and democracy in the world. This is why people keep emigrating to the U.S. (well, except for Muslim people, recently, for obvious reasons).
continued…
continuation …
I think an example from Germany in the first part of 2001 (prior to 9/11) says it best: Clinton goes to Germany and they have to bring out the riot police for crowd control, so many people want to see the guy and shake his hand. Bush II visits and the riot police have to come out to quell a riot. It is not about Americans, it is about Bush, although a lot of people, I’m afraid, aren’t making the distinction.
I’m concerned that American media, and Americans in general are becoming too insular, and not travelling enough, getting news from other countries, finding out about other cultures, even less than before. This is dangerous, in my view.
4. War doesn’t cause deficits necessarily, war only increases expenses. The cost of Iraq II is 120 billion so far, total, or 60 billion per year, assuming a full 2 years worth of accounting. The current annual U.S. deficit is 450 billion, as I recall.
My point is that the deficit is primarily due to tax cuts (as I recall, some 250 billion), but also Iraq (60 billion, lets say), partly the economic slowdown (although that is changing, but slowly), a wack of other spending (Bush didn’t refuse any spending initiative that crossed his desk).
5. My concern about “morals” and Bush being “moral” is that Bush is massively untruthful, and thus seriously, habitually, immoral, from the perspective of truthfulness. In other words, the moral vote should have been against Bush.
Sure, perceptions about “family values” and its resonation is a separate issue, personal and extremely important for a number of people; I don’t think that one can be debated easily/I don’t want to open that one up.
6. Actually, given what Bush has got away with, I think Bush wouldn’t have been impeached for assassinnating Hussein (he wasn’t impeached for lying to Congress on medicare, which is pretty big – talk about a pliant, lapdog congress).
Heck, he could have even changed the law, in secret, first (he managed to pull off the so-called Patriot act, after all; in spite of what seems to be fairly obvious constitutional violations that will likely be tossed once the courts get hold of it).
continued…
last continuation…
7. My point is there are the strong anti-abortion voters (vote for anybody anti-abortion, regardless of everything else), partisan Republicans (never vote Democrat, regardless) which would give you something like 30-40% of the electorate.
But I don’t understand what the remainder saw in Bush. In fact, it seems to me that the other issues were so strongly anti-Bush, from a factual perspective, that the 30-40% would probably be whittled down, yet Bush and Kerry were tied, basically, for months.
Part of the explanation is a failure of the press – the fact that the myth of Iraq having something to do with 9/11 is still held by a lot of people.
Another part is that Karl Rove is an excellent election strategist, albiet with ethically dubious/illegal tactics in some areas, and that election tactic wise, I think Bush trumped Kerry. Still, this would only account for a few points – say, break a tie (exactly as happened).
This still doesn’t seem to add up, however. What am I missing?
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Sure am relieved, lets start with this:
“I have to conclude that Bush is an incorrigible liar, and utterly corrupt, as far as truthfulness is concerned, and not about minor things but about the most serious things of all, including war, where people end up dying, and basic accounting.”
Many people don’t conclude that, or may merely see it as the way politics is done. Add to that the unfortunate fact that the Democrats nominated someone who supposedly has his own ethical issues, not much of a record as a senator, and is a stiff to boot, and the outcome of the election makes more sense.
The final kicker might be the wives of the candidates. The next four years are profoundly uncertain, but I am EXTREMELY glad that I won’t be reading ThereZAH’s tidbits weekly.
Political Comparisons:
Arnold Schwarzenegger vs George W Bush.
Arnold:
1) Famous secret govt father: Austrian gestapo officer
2) Difficulty with English: Cali-FOR-nia
3) Famous for speaking spanish: Hasta la vista, baby.
4) Failed business enterprise: Planet Hollywood
5) Carpetbagging/Job Switching: Austrian bodybuilder to Hollywood Real Estate to Hollywood Superstar
6) Entered office under uncommon circumstance: 2003 CA recall
George:
1) Famous secret govt father: Bonesman, Ambassador, CIA Director, President of the USA.
2) Difficulty with English: Nuke-u-ler, Internets
3) Famous for speaking spanish: Hola.
4) Failed business enterprise: countless oil companies
5) Carpetbagging/Job Switching: Connecticutt born Silver Spooner cum Texan-Man-of-the-people Cowboy Governor.
6) Entered office under uncommon circumstance: Democracy in Florida ends at 5PM.
George W Bush vs Lyndon B Johnson
George:
1) Commonly known as: GWB
2) From Texas
3) Speaks like a third grader
4) False pretense to war: WMDs
5) Not elected president by the people: 5 out of 9 Supreme Court Justices approve. That’s good enough for me.
6) Left in the dark President with a really smart Vice President.
Lyndon:
1) Commenly known as: LBJ
2) From Texas
3) Speaks like a third grader
4) False pretense to war: Gulf of Tonkin incident
5) Not elected president by the people: Succeedanium (oooh, national spelling bee word) to JFK after JFK was blown away.
6) Left in the dark Vice President becomes left in the dark President.
cont from post before
George W Bush vs Adolph Hitler
George:
1) Very ideological
2) Republican ideals of white power
3) Likes to invade countries that do not meet US standards of democracy and freedom.
4) Unable to create a coalition to successfully wage war.
5) Does not like diplomacy.
6) Speaks well when using simple words and logic. “The terrorists hate us because we like freedom.” Oh, and uses a whispering method to relay this message.
7) World hates him.
8) Does not listen to military planners and generals. Main cause of military setbacks.
9) Annihilated fellow Republican John McCain in the 2000 GOP primaries by insinuating McCain abandoned Vietnam Veterans. In political calling polls, asked pollees “if you knew McCain had fathered illegitimate children with Vietnamese women, would you be willing to vote for him?” Criticized McCain for adopting a black child.
10) Carpertbagging/Job switching: see above.
11) Looks like a monkey.
Adolph:
1) Very ideological
2) Nazi ideals of white power.
3) Likes to invade countries that do not meet Nazi standards of aryan-ness.
4) Unable to create a coaltion strong enough to successfully take over the world.
5) Diplomacy? What’s that? Oh, like when we made a pact with Soviet Union not to invade Poland and invade it anyways? (First of all, what kind of times were they living in? What country goes “oh, btw, we signed this deal that says we won’t invade this country.” If i was that country, i’d be like ‘wtf? So before this pact, you actually wanted to invade us.’)
6) Very good speaker. Likes to yell. Not whisper.
7) World hates him.
8) Does not listen to military planners and generals. Main cause of military setbacks/loss of WW2.
9) Eliminates poltical opponents by having them killed. Even killed childhood friend and Nazi loyalist. Killed childhood friends and family members who may have known he had a part-Jewish linneage.
10) Carpetbagging/job swtiching: Austrian son of a Jewish dentist, fledling artist cum German Fuhrer.
11) Looks like Charlie Chaplin who often acts like a monkey.
——–
So, in the comparison test, which person is most comparable to G W Bush? The winner is Hitler with 11 similarities. Arnold and Lyndon are tied with 6 similarities.
You foreigners are truly pathetic. Thank god you don’t live in the US. Don’t worry we hate you! If you’re going to go on and on ripping the US and our great president, please state what lames as pathetic country you slither around in.
All of you foreign posters are Hitler! You people are rapist, murdering thugs! You lie, steal, cheat. You are corrupt! Please stay in your disgusting countries. We don’t want you here.
We’d rather live where we are, rather than the rather sad USA. Hubris beckons Yankees.
In the land of the blind the one eyed mn is King. Hail King George Dubbya!
Will at least 51% of you remove your blinkers?
I would like to ask a serious question here, and would like some serious responses. Please, no bloated rhetoric
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One of the the major problems for this entire world that looms on the horizon is North Korea. For those of you that did not watch the first debate, here are Bush and Kerry’s responses on dealing with North Korea.
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html
BUSH: And so I decided that a better way to approach the issue was to get other nations involved, just besides us. And in Crawford, Texas, Jiang Zemin and I agreed that the nuclear-weapons-free peninsula, Korean Peninsula, was in his interest and our interest and the world’s interest.
And so we began a new dialogue with North Korea, one that included not only the United States, but now China. And China’s a got a lot of influence over North Korea, some ways more than we do.
As well, we included South Korea, Japan and Russia. So now there are five voices speaking to Kim Jong Il, not just one.”
KERRY: I want bilateral talks which put all of the issues, from the armistice of 1952, the economic issues, the human rights issues, the artillery disposal issues, the DMZ issues and the nuclear issues on the table.
Now – here is the question. Which view do you favor? Personally, I do not think it is the responsibility of the US to deal with North Korea in any way. I think that responsibility lies soley on South Korea, China, Japan, and Russia. So I think I would have to agree with Bush here. Kerry’s response just reeks of American elitism.
What do you all think?
Ransath, whatever Kerry said is like yesterday’s bathwater.
North Korea has the right to build as many nukes as it likes. Neighboring states, and even far flung countries like the US, can blow up whatever N Korea builds when it suits them (us). Buying them off has not worked yet, as Jimmy Carter’s failure shows. It is probably worth another try, but after that its cruise missle time.
I suppose one effect of the election is that there won’t be any time wasted backrubbing the UN when such an action is contemplated; Kerry would no doubt spend a year kissing Chiracs bum for his Security council vote.
Dear Sure Am Relieved:
1. Thorpedo:
>An AWD is less efficient that a 2WD, inherently, >due to the extra mechanics and associated >parasitic losses and weight. Not to diminish your >efforts; taking a bike to work is a much bigger >deal, fuel wise, than AWD vs. 2WD on long trips.
I thought someone might bite … actually the losses are significant but not that great for the vehicle I have, a Subaru Outback, a damn sight better choice that the big heavy 4WD’s (and pretend 4WD’s) that are the choice of many tar top drivers … these two ton plus behemoths rarely go off-road and are inherently inefficient, gas-guzzling, unstable and dangerous. I have a real need for an AWD vehicle, in addition to its better handling and active safety dynamics.
I made the point that I am not perfect, but I make the effort where I can to be environmentally sensitive. In any case, saving the environment can not be just done on the individual level. It requires changes to the economic, social and political fabric of countries worldwide especially Oz, USA, Europe, etc …
Anyway, my main point remains, all these political issues etc are just trivia compare to the real problems … survival of the planet Earth in the sense of the current ecosystems and environment … the planet will outsurvive us in most scenarios in any case! We are a mere blip (or less) on Earth’s timeline.
Thorpedo, my favorite bumpersticker:
“Nature bats last.”
Road Warrior wrote:
—————–
Note how many comments here include “anti-American”. Well it isn’t that people are “anti-America” but rather “Pro World”. The United Hates hates the world right now but to put a nice spin on it, well I guess they just want to be victims.
These days though
United States Citizens = isolationist warmongering planet haters.
Free Worlders: collaborative peace loving globalists.
So remember, promoting better life for you, your family and the world requires you to be “anti-american”.
—————–
What a load of rubbish. Congratulations, though, Road Warrior, because you’ve stumbled on one of the key differences between your “Free World” approach and that of the U.S.: Yours doesn’t work.
“The United Hates hates the world right now”?????
What the hell does that even mean? Do you REALLY think that everyone in America HATES the world?
You call Free Worlders (whatever the hell that is) “collaborative peace loving globalists”. Read “peace loving” as “weak, ineffectual, lazy, head-in-the-sand, wishful thinkers”. That’s what your code words mean.
So the U.S. is stepping in and doing what the U.N. was mandated to do once sanction after sanction after sanction was ignored and spit-on by Saddam for more than ten years, and WE’RE warmongers? Why, because your sorry-ass nation is AFRAID to do what was required? “Pro World” my ass. More like “Lazy, lets-all-wave-peace-signs-at-them-and-hope-they-agree, dreamers”.
Peace through strength is the way peace is maintained. And at this point in time it’s the U.S. that foots most of the bill — and most of the lives — in helping to maintain it. I’d just LOVE to see what would happen if all the economic and related infrastructure that the U.S. provides to the rest of the world were suddenly pulled back. If we were to suddenly — as you say — become “isolationists”. You’d be crying in your tea for us to come back and “protect” you because you can’t do it for your damn selves.
But I especially like the last part you wrote:
“So remember, promoting better life for you, your family and the world requires you to be “anti-american”.”
Ummm, way to justify your hatred and vitriol there, Road Warrior.
Ransath wrote:
—————–
Kerry’s response just reeks of American elitism.
—————–
You’re absolutely right. People living here in his home state know this fool very well. He’s a spoiled, pampered, elitist snob who never earned a penny on his own (read: one failed cookie company) and marries increasingly rich women while handing over his balls to them. Can you frickin’ IMAGINE four years of Teresa Heinz (“Shove it!”) Kerry as first “lady”?
The mind reels.
I feel very badly for all y’all in the US…
I mean really. Just look at the mess you’re in now. Before this election the world was waiting for the American public to demonstrate that they weren’t assholes. That chance has been blown as GWB won both the electoral and popular vote. Now instead of people (myself included) thinking Americans are great and that they just got hosed in 2000 by the Florida vote, we now think you’re idiots who condone international terror campaigns, military and financial aid for countries who will do the bidding of the American (read: greedy republican international terrorists) government.
American foreign policy has always been aggressive, tragic and in many cases criminal but under this administration you guys are spelling out the beginning of the end. And you actually voted for it this time.
Give it a rest now chaps. 10.3.6 just got posted by Apple, meaning we can talk about Macs for a change.
robigone,
you spinless piece of crap. tell us all what piece of garbage country you hail from fool. i can only imagine.
Oh Hondo,
I can tell from the tone of your retort that you are angry… and American… and too young and foolish to know much about your own country’s policies and history. If you did know –and you weren’t an ass– then I’m sure you would have voted. You did vote didn’t you? Oh yes, I forgot about your age… and the fact that you are an ass… and wouldn’t have bothered to vote anyway. Do your homework Hondo… talk to you in a decade or so…
I agree with Hondo. robiwan – what country are you from???? Why do you leave that out? are you ashamed. I’m 37, MBA from Harvard, and live in Scottsdale, AZ. Proud to have voted for Bush! robiwan you are a very bad, deranged, person. Please tell us all where you’re from.
1. Joe McConnell:
Re: This is the way politics is done. My point is that it seems, sadly, that truthfullness has taken a major turn for the worse, in spite of already being in rough shape. My other concern is that people are unaware of these things, and thus have drawn false conclusions like Bush is moral, for example. People are, of course, free to draw their own conclusions. I have tried to state the facts clearly, and, try as I might, can only come up with factual, serious, even massive moral deficiencies regarding Bush.
“Nature bats last” – that is nothing short of brilliant.
2. ..
Aren’t these rather superfical observations? Isn’t it a better idea to get some idea of the person’s character, ability, record in the current job (where it exists)?
While I had reservations about Arnold, he seems to have done a pretty decent job so far, especially as regards not being extreme (he was always touted as a moderate, and hasn’t disappointed), bringing the two sides together, tackling hard issues. What more could you ask for?
Think I’ve pretty much covered off the Bush record. One point deserves mention: Bush campaigned as “a uniter not a divider” – a great slogan. The reality has been the opposite – Bush is grotesquely divisive, and, in fact, this is yet another serious example of Bush being untruthful.
LBJ was highly problematic, but he did win a election. It would seem that lying to congress should be a federal crime – that way, the (hopefully non-political) courts would look at the law and the incident and make a decision based on law. Maybe the penalty should be banishment from public office for 4 years, if you don’t fill an election promise that you made in writing, jail for lying to the people about war and other serious matters (it is fraud, after all).
Still, back to the current situation and reality: if the press doesn’t pound away on ethical problems, they’ll probably get away with it in the short term. You will notice that LBJ didn’t run for a second term, since he thought he wouldn’t get in. Still, as regards Vietnam, Nixon continued full tilt.
It is ABSOLUTELY disgusting that Bush Junior and/or his surrogates smears legitimate, decorated war veterans like McCain and Kerry, while, as McCain so scathingly said Bush was busy defending Texas just in case Oklahoma decided to invade while they were in Vietnam.
continued…
continuation…
All the other war hawks in the Bush admin also avoided Vietnam, and the only war moderate (Powell) was somebody who went. I find this extremely interesting – those who dislike war are those who know something about it. For the rest of them, its a video game, a theoretical exercise.
I think a comparison to Hitler is over the top in the extreme and diminishes your case. Hitler is the 3rd worst mass murderer in the world (after Mao, Stalin), but one who utilized the technical know-how of one of the leading countries in the world to practice a policy of race extermination on an unprecedented scale, using, among other things, reasonably involved technology. In other words, we’re not talking about a bunch of out of control thugs, but a massive, hands-on government program.
I am extremely troubled by a number of Bush anti-democratic moves, but to compare him to Hitler is, in my view, ridiculious.
And, to be fair, I am also troubled by the disappointing lack of substantive remarks regarding Bush, which I am DESPERATATELY looking for – I simply don’t understand what people see in the guy (I’m funny that way, I like to understand stuff).
3. Ransath:
Re: N. Korea.
Bush completely ignored Korea for the first few years, in spite of the previous administration insisting it was a serious problem that needed immediate attention.
Obviously, and legitimately, they got severely distracted after 9/11. But then got involved in Iraq II and tied down the bulk of their military, removing their big detterent (which was significantly enhanced after Afghanistan, by the way).
This emboldened N. Korea and Iran as regards their nuke programs – “this is serious, the U.S. is really aggressive, we had better use this opportunity while they’re tied up in Iraq to bump up our WMD”. In other words, this is another HUGE problem with Iraq II – now nuke proliferation is worsened.
continued…
continuation…
It seemed like Kerry was trying to say lets broaden the scope and fix this once and for all. I think its hard to say which approach is best – its a negotiation, and strategies are best decided by those at the table.
Whatever works best is best, but be flexible, responsive, focused, and stick with it until you get the desired outcome, within reason. Flexibility, responsiveness, reasonableness and sticking with something aren’t strong areas for Bush and his administration (other than for Colin Powell).
I’m sorry if this seems like a cop-out, but that’s how I see it.
Regarding sticking with it – look at how quickly Bush lost interest in Afghanistan (which now is producing 75% of the world’s opium, up from 10% under the Taliban).
While N. Korea is problematic, particularily if they start exporting this stuff around, I don’t see it as the end of the world. After all, there are a number of states that are generally considered to have nukes but don’t talk about it: Isreal, S. Africa (which has given them up), Brazil (although they may have stopped) so I can’t see them actually being used.
Still, they are very bad toys for bad people to have, and if they get shopped around, severely problematic (this is the biggest problem). Which also means that Bush should adopt the Kerry plan of cleaning up the old Russian nukes and the nuclear material they contain much faster – this will make the world safer, and is just plain a good thing to do. It doesn’t matter where a good idea comes from, you or your oponent – if its good, just do it.
continued…
contination…
4. Scrawny Austin:
Thanks for lowering the volume a decent amount. You have raised a good point in your comment following “Nature bats last”; I will reply:
I have worked in the U.S., and I have travelled in the U.S. a lot. I KNOW a lot of Americans are decent, honourable people, first hand. And I like them, generally, as a people, on balance. I have severe, massive problems with Bush, but that is separate from the U.S. and Americans in general.
The problem people have in the world right now, in my humble opinion, is that they don’t have the information that I, for example, have.
All they see is Bush’s dismissive attitude, and equate it with the U.S. in general – “you don’t agree with me, then get lost”. Bush had problems before 9/11 in this regard. Still, after 9/11, the ENTIRE WORLD, basically (including Libya, to my surprise, who is NOT a friendly western country) was on the U.S. side.
And we’re not talking about hollow words – we’re talking about sending soldiers in the REAL conflict against terrorism – Afghanistan. And this was a wonderful thing – the entire world pulling together in response to a terrible tragedy (sadly, tragedies happen from time to time).
And the result was outstanding – the Taliban was routed, and a big important message was sent – “you harbour terrorists, you don’t smarten up (clean it up, hand them over) after we point it out, we’ll take you down.” And the entire world is behind this, so you can’t hide.
This was REALLY important.
What has so frustrated/has so infuriated the world is how this was then SPIT upon, conceptually speaking.
Bush’s attitude was “great, everybody is on our side now, this would be a great time to invade something, they’ll let us get away with it if we push hard…Lets go get Iraq”. In other words, one of the most grotesque abuses of goodwill/power that I can recall. And massively hurting the cause of fighting terrorism.
continued…
continuation…
As mentioned, this has nothing to do with terrorism, and, in fact, has made the terrorism situation worse by increasing recruitment and alienating countries who were seriously trying to help. It also DESTROYED the message the U.S. and the world sent in Afghannistan regarding 9/11 being serious crap, and having serious consequences.
Now, the general perception is that the U.S. isn’t that serious about terrorism, but is more serious about settling old scores, in spite of there being serious problems out there like terrorism.
Like it or not, working with others is hard and takes time. But it is essential – even the U.S. needs help. Think about this – if the entire world was behind the U.S. in Iraq II, at a mimimum, it wouldn’t have been rushed, there would have been proper plans, there would have been the appropriate number of soldiers, the aftermath would have been clean and orderly (this HAS happened before – witness the Marshall plan after WWII).
Of course Iraq is a hard country to fix after it is broken, but, like all problems, with enough resources, time, effort, it can be solved. Unfortunately, the current rush job is a mess, as anybody who thought much about it, expected, sadly, including many in the U.S.
One of the way the U.S. needs help is it needs other countries to buy the bonds it issues to fund its debt. This one is very troubling – if the U.S. gets into trouble financially, because it is so huge, this will have massive global consequences. Remember what happens when a country declares bankruptcy – the IMF steps in. And this isn’t theoretical – the IMF had to bail out the U.K. in the 70’s, so it CAN and DOES happen to big industrialized countries.
This is why the U.S. dollar has dropped so much lately – the international currency market thinks less of the U.S., economically, than it did in the past (open currency markets are brutally honest and open). And, yes, this makes exports cheaper (good for exporting companies) but it makes imports (oil, for example) more expensive.
To be fair, I don’t think the U.S. is near bankruptcy, but the current direction is very troubling, extremely dangerous, and there are major financial pressures coming (baby boom retirement). Plus, what about health coverage for the uninsured and other generally worthwhile things that Americans want? These things aren’t free…
continued…
continuation…
So the current U.S. debt is increasing the cost of oil for Americans and giving more money to people like the Saudis who have, in fact, started the Islmaic terrorist thing, generally (although they are starting to crack down now, realizing they have created a monster than is threatening them).
Another way the U.S. needs help is it needs to maintain its customer base. Making your customers (other countries) angry via Iraq II is a very bad customer relations policy. Remember that the U.S. is an exporting country. Sure, this is being compensated for by a price cut due to the lower U.S. dollar, but keeping sales up by cutting prices is a pretty desperate move, and can’t last forever.
My personal, general feeling is one of extreme sadness. Americans are decent people, yet they are severely hurting themselves now, due to a reckless, extreme governent that doesn’t listen to others, even other Americans, even other Republican Americans, that don’t blindly agree with it (and, it seems, a perversion of the First Amendment regarding free speech into the right to lie which keeps a lot of this out of the public discourse by fogging up everything). I sure hope y’all get through this ok, but I am worried. And, personally, I say this not out of hate or spite, but as a concerned friend. But I don’t know what to do. And I still don’t understand why people voted for Bush.
Anybody???!!!! Can you explain?
5. The reason that people drive small, fuel efficient cars in a number of European countries is due to pure self interest – fuel is something like $5.00 U.S. a gallon. The reason people in the U.S. don’t is because fuel is cheap – around $2.00 U.S. a gallon.
Yes, it would be a good fuel saving move to raise the price of fuel in the U.S. (it would bring in a ton of revenue, wiping out the deficit, for example), but Americans like cheap fuel, and there would be severe political consequence for politicans that tried, since fuel prices are a big deal in the U.S.
Obviously, the environmental movement in these European countries were able to carry the day – convince enough people that paying a ton of tax on fuel is such a good thing that they voted for politicans who supported that. Surely it was done gradually, also.
continued…
last continuation….
And that hasn’t happened in the U.S., yet, and it doesn’t look likely, even though it would seem to be a good idea since it would reduce oil consumption significantly, especially middle eastern, encourage conservation of a non renewable resource/develop alternatives etc., reduce the price of oil and thereby stop funding states like the saudi’s, iran etc.
Finally, it is misleading to state that those countries with high fuel costs are being “good” and those with low are being “bad”. Significant people in both countries want what the other have – beware of tarring everybody with the same brush. Still, I have to admit that high fuel prices do seem to be, theoretically, a good idea, even though it would hurt every time you and I fill up (and I love powerful, fast V8 cars).
6. Craig (and others asking for the country of posters):
I would have thought this was obvious, but I guess it isn’t:
The reason people aren’t mentioning what country they are from is that it isn’t relevant to the discussion. They aren’t mentioning what they had for dinner last night either, for the same reason.
People, myself included, are deeply puzzled and are trying to understand how it is that Bush got the vote that he did. To me, at least, it doesn’t make any sense.
I’ll ask again (but I’m getting tired of asking):
If you or anybody else can provide a factual case as to why Bush was a good candidate, I would GREATLY appreciate it.
(please see my earlier postings for more detail, the facts I have been able to gather).
The 2004 U.S. presidential election generated extreme interest world wide, and, people are surprised at the outcome and want to learn. And this is a good thing – learning, inquiring, growing. The U.S. is a very influential country in the world, after all. Plus, the U.S. and the world are going to have to live with Bush and Cheney for 4 more years.
You, obviously, have to filter out the bile and vulgarity, and, if nothing remains, ignore it – the message was simply static. I am disappointed that it seems necessary to mention this (plus I am disappointed that people seem unable to maintain basic civility in the first place).
Country (and age, gender, race, location, state) are irrelevant, generally, to this discussion.
What is next – are people going to ask what race the person is, so they can cast racial as well as country slurs if they don’t like the comment?
Sheesh….
Sure Am Relieved:
Some of your points are well made, and I agree that comparing Bush to Hitler is as ridiculous as it is grossly offensive.
However, it is worth pointing out that some of the Straussian political philosophy that underlies neo-conservativism has disturbing echoes of Nazism or any other number of discredited movements, which effectively try to create a sense of national unity and purpose by creating a sense/environment of fear focussed on a given nation or ethnic group.
Nazism of course used international marxism and Jews, McCarthyism used communism, and neo-conservatives used the Soviet Union for most of the 70s and 80s (until the inertial death of Soviet communism) and radical Islam since they stopped focussing their intellectual prowess (sic) on William Jefferson Clinton.
For example, Casey’s CIA was used to promote the concept of the Soviet Union as a sponsor of global terrorism, despite the fact that many of the Company’s analysts explained to Casey that much of the supporting data was ‘black propaganda’ that Langley had fabricated in the first place.
We see echoes of this in the spurious intelligence used to link Iraq to WMD, and radical Islamic terrorism.
As I’ve said before, I personally don’t believe that GWB is a fundamentally evil man, however the motives of the people who attach themselves to his coat tails are perhaps more worthy of scrutiny than many here are willing to admit.
Wow, Sure Am Relieved, what a well though out series of postings! Nice to see some reasoned thinking rather than emotionally charged static!
While there is life there is hope … of course we may be upsetting the equilibrium of that system on this planet. Have been working from home for most of this year … so the (evil) Subaru Outback has been garaged most of the time (a recycled car in the sense that I bought it at auction … still a damn site more fuel efficient and cleaner that my Dad’s turbocharged diesel Landcruiser (heavy beast!).
We are suffering here too with our conservative PM John Howard re-elected (a dress reheresal for GWB!) … I believe his kids helped in the GWB campaign.
I suppose if the people around our leaders make enough noise they can’t do too much damage in one term … hopefully! I wish they both cared about the environment more. It is something that has to worked on at a economic, social and government scale.
49-49 in 2000
51-48 in 2004
Doesn’t look like a big change to me.
Bush exploited hatred of gays to win. That’s shameful.
The reason you slimy foreigners won’t post your country of origin is because you’d get your balls cut off by whatever scum bag runs things there. So save your criticism of the US and Bush for your neighbors in whatever hell hole part of the world you live in. We Americans could give a flying shit what you nimrods think!
I hate gays and muslimes!
Hi Scrawny Austin:
“your “Free World” approach and that of the U.S.: Yours doesn’t work.”
How so? And does that does that of the U.S. work?
“The United Hates hates the world right now”
“It means that the United States hates the world right now. I really apologize if you don’t see the play on words of the United States and the United Hates.
“Do you REALLY think that everyone in America HATES the world?”
No, I am not talking about individual US citizens, many of which are fine and decent folk. This is about the current administration.
“Read “peace loving” as “weak, ineffectual, lazy, head-in-the-sand, wishful thinkers”. That’s what your code words mean.”
That’s fine with me, it sure beats “strong, effectual, hard working, head to the sky war mongers who’s souls are destined for hell.”
“So the U.S. is stepping in and doing what the U.N. was mandated to do once sanction after sanction after sanction was ignored and spit-on by Saddam for more than ten years, and WE’RE warmongers?”
Yes, let the UN do what it is supposed to do. The whole war on Iraq undermined all that work. The head of the UN has stated that the war of Iraq is illegal. Now why don’t you turn yourselves over to the Hague before we come and get you?”
“Lazy, lets-all-wave-peace-signs-at-them-and-hope-they-agree, dreamers”.
Sure works well for us here. Last time I counted all our tall skyscrappers were still standing. I guess you are just jealous that we can wave peace signs and keep our buildings up.
“Peace through strength is the way peace is maintained.”
Strength of what? Strength of weapons, ideas, food? Don’t bother answering, you believe the strength of powerful weapons. Too bad your aim is way off.
“I’d just LOVE to see what would happen if all the economic and related infrastructure that the U.S. provides to the rest of the world were suddenly pulled back.”
So would I. Maybe there would be more of a distribution of the world’s wealth. That would be something. But stop with the iddle threats, by all means put your money where your mouth is. Take your pissant army and other monopolies home and don’t accept any products other than made in the USA.
You would try to be crying in your coffee, but you couldn’t heat it up with foreign oil. That is moot, you would no longer have coffee.
continued:
Hate and vitriol? Hey, we don’t go attacking other countries unwarranted. We don’t have terrorist attacks here, save for yours (and you make loud but ineffective terrorists so I don’t worry about it and all our buildings stand tall and proud. It is certainly not because we have a magnificent army but that we know how to peacefully live with other sane rational countries.
Of course that discounts terrorist bully nations like yours.
So I will just keep waving that peace flag, and when the UN asks us to go on a peace keeping mission we will send our military. Strength and diplomacy after all go hand in hand for making a wonderful peaceful place.
I know it is hard for you to comprehend this, since your country has been at war 43% of it’s history, you have come to have it as an ingrained part of your culture. You depend on war. But that will change.
Sensible:
Absolutely correct! All the people who cite this election as some sort of landslide for the Republican party obviously have no sense of perspective.
When Nixon was in the middle of a war (1972), he carried 60.3% of the popular vote, all but three states and 520 electoral college votes.
Reagan’s re-election in 1984 (against the hapless Mondale) garnered 58.8% of the popular vote, 48 out of 50 states (plus the District) and 525 electoral votes.
Even LBJ in 1964 was more of a landslide than this.
Incidentally, Kerry’s popular vote (55.95 million) was better than any winning ticket between 1960 and 2000 so the crowing Republicans who insist that this was a humiliating defeat need to learn to read some history books.
As for Bradford: I’ve repeatedly stated that I’m British and living in the land of warm beer and cold nights.
As for Angela: your party would be proud of you – do you buy your brown shirts ready to wear or do you have them especially tailored for you?
MCCFR,
We all know you’re from the UK. Most Americans love the normal UK people. Most don’t like the commie UK people. Road Warrior is a commmie through and through. RW – where are you from?????? China????? Keep crying dude, we don’t give a crap what you think!
MCCFR,
Bottom line, Bush won everything and it was decisive. Just because other elections were even bigger landslides for one candidate or the other doesn’t take away from the fact that Bush won every way he possibly could, decisively! We love and back our president. Watch out middle east terrorists.
Bill,
Learn something about politics – it wasn’t a landslide and no amount of spinning and shilling will make it one.
Controlling the Executive branch and both houses in the Legislature will ultimately lead to problems, as those who got GWB re-elected (i.e. the Christian Right) will demand the payback of a Supreme Court that is loaded towards socially conservative views.
Now whilst GWB might be minded towards that agenda, there is no guarantee that the more pragmatic legislature – none of whom are doing their last job unlike GWB � will play ball.
One missed Supreme Court nomination and a few screw-ups, and this administration could be a lame duck by the middle of 2006, which would be unbelievably dangerous given the pressures that this administration will face at home and abroad.
Just because someone isn’t a fan of Winner Takes All economics doesn’t make them a Commie or a Pinko – I’ve always been a centre/left social democrat, which is what our Prime Minister is supposed to be when he isn’t pursuing some ill-founded ‘destiny’ which appears to revolve around a desire to be the first elected President of Europe.
Time for a cooler head … ya didn’t know I could fit in the freezer compartment did ya! 😎
Gee most of the folks on this site wouldn’t know a real communist if they fell over one. Often they equate anything less than a near-facist government to a commie state; they seem to love guns, militia and marching around in uniforms; remind you of anyone from near-history?
It’s all about balance folks, the needs/wants of the individual versus those of society. And while Bush or Kerry don’t seem to be great choices at first (we had to deal with Howard and Latham in Oz) at least they are not robots; that is they seem to be human and have the capacity to learn from mistakes. So maybe if the planets are properly aligned we may get this, to us our special planet, Earth, out of the mess it is in. Lets focus on how things can be better, rather than wallow in the muck of what is.
Living in hope (and not too much delusion)!
Wow, you foreigner’s are truly disgusting! Thank god we could care less what you think. We saved your asses in WWI and WWII. We’ll save our own asses by killing off all terrorists. Blowing them up and killing them. They get a nuke off in one of our cities say goodnight to Islam!
“We’ll save our own asses by killing off all terrorists. Blowing them up and killing them. “
Wouldn’t that be a form of self-immolation?
Craig said: “I agree with Hondo. robiwan – what country are you from???? Why do you leave that out? are you ashamed. I’m 37, MBA from Harvard, and live in Scottsdale, AZ. Proud to have voted for Bush! robiwan you are a very bad, deranged, person. Please tell us all where you’re from.”
Craig, both you and Hondo a losers. Simple fact. You’re a 37 y/o Harvard grad??? You know, somehow I can believe that (however unlikely it might seem to most of us). You see Harvard produces some of the sickest, most indoctrinated neo-con pigs out there. I’m sure as a result of your over-blown business degree you’re a proud, non-thinking, Rush Limbaugh loving little Republican ass-licker.
I’m Canadian. I honestly fear for you and the rest of the world in the coming years under this administration. God Bless America…
Canadian,
That says it all. You people are like having Iran as a next door neighbor. The US is beginning to hate you back woods freaks and frenchmen too. UP YOURS CANOOK!!
Gerard:
Canada is like Iran? Hmmm… really? I’ve never been to Iran but it doesn’t seem likely.
So you are now the official spokes person for the US? As such your job is to anonymously spread hate in small Mac based online communities around the world. Well, I guess I’ll have to take your word for it –I live in what might as well be Iran and the US is beginning to hate Canadians.
Oh well. I have an idea. Why don’t you send some liberators up here to straighten us “CANOOKS” out…
And Wally wins a prize for bring up the most fatuous argument in this thread – the hoary old chestnut of America saving the world in two world wars.
He neatly forgets that America stayed out of WW1 until the sinking of an American vessel – so no desire to work altruistically for right and justice there.
And in WWII, he neatly forgets that the USA stayed out of the war until December 1941, when most of the ‘civilised’ world (i.e. Britain, the Empire and Commonwealth and the resistance movements across Europe) had been fighting the Axis powers since September 1939.
But again, the USA only entered a dispute once its own territory had been attacked, and after it had extracted maximum benefit by effectively turning the UK into an economic basket case whilst simultaneously allowing American companies to profit from German subsidiaries that were doing a roaring trade in supplying the Nazi state and the occupied countries.
Even with terrorism, American citizens funded the Provisional IRA through Noraid believing it be some romantic cause instead of the more accurate picture of a bunch of murdering, gun-running, drug-smuggling criminals who consorted with other psychopaths such as the Shining Path (Peru), the PLO and the FARC (Colombia).
So, when an American accuses you or your country of cowardice, feel free to remind them of their history of pragmatic expediency and tardiness at showing up to fights until it suited their narrow national interests.
And if you’re wondering why this is a source of annoyance to me, I was lucky on two separate occasions to be separated by circumstance from two IRA bombs in the 1970s.
Otherwise, I might have been dead by the age of 16 and my mother could have been dead at the age of 45.
But thank the Lord, the USA has now finally awoken to why terrorism is a bad thing – only four decades late, but let’s not quibble.
And if you’re wondering why this is a source of annoyance to me, I was lucky on two separate occasions to be separated by circumstance from two IRA bombs in the 1970s.
Otherwise, I might have been dead by the age of 16 and my mother could have been dead at the age of 45.
But thank the Lord, the USA has now finally awoken to why terrorism is a bad thing – only four decades late, but let’s not quibble.
And if you’re wondering why this is a source of annoyance to me, I was lucky on two separate occasions to be separated by circumstance (the choice of where to eat and where to sit, and subsequently an auto-immune allergic reaction) from two IRA bombs in the 1970s.
Otherwise, I might have been dead by the age of 16 and my mother could have been dead at the age of 45.
But thank the Lord, the USA has now finally awoken to why terrorism is a bad thing – only four decades late, but let’s not quibble.
1. MCCFR:
I am, like you. deeply troubled by the underlying motivation of a number of things that GWB has done. After all, these weren’t random acts.
What on earth was he thinking about making such massive tax cuts after he had already spent the surplus on an earlier tax cut? And while he was raising spending?
There is a school of thought that says that government will grow forever in size, unless you put some serious constraints on its size by cutting its revenue. People who take an extreme position on this, cut taxes first, to start the ball rolling, figuring that government will be forced to cut back eventually, when the deficits pile up.
Personally, I feel that line of thinking is irresponsible in the extreme, and that government should be providing value and charging, through taxes, what it is spending. Running a deficit, except in the most extreme circumstances, should never happen. And going to war (increasing expenses) while cutting taxes, should be grounds for impeachment for gross irresponsibility, in my view.
Back to your point: I am deeply troubled by the politics of division and patriotism. Why isn’t logic enough? I suppose I’m being idealistic here – a patriotic response to 9/11 was certainly reasonable, within reason, but, as has been said already, extending that to Iraq is wrong, and seriously fraudulent in my humble opinion.
This is the problem with these types of emotional reactions – once you start them up, they’re hard to stop. I suppose, if they’re kept within reason, the end does justify the means as a response to 9/11, but I generally loathe that type of justification, since it is so often abused. And, note that here it was abused to go to Iraq, very cynically and very quickly, I might add.
I disagree with you regarding radical Islam – this is a terrible thing, and, it needs to be combated vigorously and militarily, if it makes sennse, especially now since it is now on the offensive and has been shown to be serious. But there are many tools that need to be used, including, most critically, listening, learning (something this thread is short of, for a number of responders), seeing if there is common ground, areas we can work together on.
continued…
…continuation
I am very troubled how one of the world’s major religons, Islam, has, to a reasonably large degree been hijacked by extremists. Clearly this is a serious problem. And, clearly, people who practice/display hate (in the name of Islam or patriotism or ANYTHING), have, at a minimum, serious emotional problems and/or serious mental problems. Sadly, brainwashing hatred is common and easy, but that doesn’t mean it is any less evil, nor at a minimum, a serious emotional ILLNESS.
I am not a Muslim, nor into religion, but Islam, like all religions, is generally based on loving your fellow humans, so suicide bombing is a grotesque perversion (and, in fact, blatantly against Islam). Yes there are some deeply troubling aspects to Islam (female repression in Saudi Arabia is, in my view, a gross human rights violation, for example). Obviously, mainstream Muslims need to be encouraged, speak out, disavow violence etc. etc.
And any side spewing hatred, is obviously toxic, sick, and in need of serious therapy, at a mimimum. And this includes hateful anti-americanism, as well as hateful pro-americanism, in my view.
I am also troubled by the abuse of ‘national security’ to hide all kinds of nasty, corrupt, illegal behaviour. This is why freedom of information is so critical – get the facts out there, so they can be seen and fixed if necessary. It is extremely troubling that GWB is extreme AND highly secretive – what else is there that we don’t know? How many times does the lesson of “secrets are bad, generally, and need to be carefully justified” have to be learned?
I don’t think GWB is evil, but he sure has done some evil things, in my view, claiming, presumably, in his mind, that the end justifies the means. He, at a minimum, should know better, particularily since he is claiming to be moral, religious etc. 9/11 was seriously heavy duty crap, and it needed a seriously heavy duty response, but that didn’t include trashing the constitution, the Geneva convention, invading other, non involved countries.
And the motives of those on GWB’s coattails are indeed highly suspect, and it appears they are motivated by more than simple greed and corruption.
continued…
…last continuation
2. Thorpedo:
I was making a minor comment on the AWD – I didn’t mean it nearly as seriously as you’re taking it.
You are absolutely correct that a Subaru is still reasonable on fuel. And that work from home is much better yet again, since it might save office space, also (but pedal bikes are good too, plus they get you in shape). Small cars like Subaru tend to be light on safety features like airbags, especially side airbags, but I can’t comment specifically since I’m not into Subaru.
Until we get non fossil fuel energy, we have to be realistic – we’re not helping, we’re only hurting a reduced amount. Cleanly produced hydrogen for hydrogen powered cars would be good, but we’re a ways away from that.
I still am puzzled by the U.S. election, however. Why is the % of support for GWB so high? Ignoring the campaigning and all that – say 4 or 6 months ago. Perhaps I am being naive about the influence of sound bites on a lot of the population. I have to admit that, for things I am not that interested in, I can be swayed by superfical things like sounds bites.
It sure sounds like the message didn’t get out there/people didn’t know, but I’m guessing.
I am shocked by the extreme things GWB has done in his last term, however, and am very fearful for the next one. And I can’t understand why the moderates (i.e. most of the population) didn’t vote against him, massively. It also is not the case that GWB has the kind of people you are hoping for around him – in fact, they are encouraging/manipulating him, in my view, to be even more extreme.
You suggest GWB is human and not a robot. At least, as regards tax cuts, GWB seems to be fairly robotic – another budget, another tax cut, regardless of the deficit. He also seems to be robotically reaching for extremism. I hope I’m wrong; perhaps now that he’s been re-elected, he’ll moderate, but I’m not so sure.
3. robiWan:
I’m not sure encouraging liberation of Canada by the U.S. is such a good idea. The last time that was tried, the U.S. ended up burning down Toronto.
Unfortunately, that made Canada REALLY angry. Canadians then stormed down to Washington and burned the U.S. capital area including the White House to the ground. I’m sure neither the U.S. nor Canada wants to go through that again.