“Steve Job’s reported ‘lambast’ of teacher unions last week during an ‘education reform conference’ does not reflect a new stance for Jobs,” Donna Bogatin blogs for ZDNet.
“Seventeen years prior, Jobs put forth a similar educational philosophy for an Oral History Interview at the Smithsonian Institution,” Bogatin reports. “Although Jobs’ remarks last week were summarized and headlined by the Associated Press as ‘Apple CEO lambasts teachers unions,’ the totality of his thoughts on the U.S. education system encompassed much more.
Bogatin presents some excerpts from Jobs’ Oral History Interview at the Smithsonian Institution. A sample of Steve Jobs’ comments circa 1995:
…the vast majority of the public are pretty mindless most of the time. I think the school situation has a parallel here when it comes to technology. It is so much more hopeful to think that technology can solve the problems that are more human and more organizational and more political in nature, and it ain’t so. We need to attack these things at the root, which is people and how much freedom we give people, the competition that will attract the best people. Unfortunately, there are side effects, like pushing out a lot of 46 year old teachers who lost their spirit fifteen years ago and shouldn’t be teaching anymore. I feel very strongly about this. I wish it was as simple as giving it over to the computer.
The unions are the worst thing that ever happened to education because it’s not a meritocracy. It turns into a bureaucracy, which is exactly what has happened. The teachers can’t teach and administrators run the place and nobody can be fired. It’s terrible.
Bogatin writes, “Mr. Jobs, I lend you my support, in what I am calling your ‘entrepreneurial education’ philosophy. I do not write as a disinterested observer, I have served as adjunct faculty in institutions of higher learning and, subsequently, have been required to be a member of a teachers union.”
More of Jobs’ comments in the full article here.
Related articles:
Steve Jobs & Rush Limbaugh agree: U.S. public schools are ‘unionized in the worst possible way’ – February 20, 2007
Apple CEO Steve Jobs blasts teacher unions, says US schools are ‘unionized in the worst possible way’ – February 16, 2007
So, Donna … Do you go to the head of the class, now ?
I taught English in the public school system for 25 years (western state) and was even a teacher of the year finalist in 1988. Everything Steve has said now and over the years is spot on. And more’s the pity for the children of this great country.
Unfortunately, there are side effects, like pushing out a lot of 46 year old teachers who lost their spirit fifteen years ago and shouldn’t be teaching anymore.
I have a two big problems with this statement.
First off, lots of folks including el Rushbo quoted several posts ago lament the inability to attract talented teachers due to factors like low pay. Now how do you expect to get people excited about going into the field if you announce they’ll be fired for the younger sexier model as soon as they hit middle age? And what do they do then? If they’ve trained as a teacher, gotten certification, etc. etc., how do they turn around and become a Wall Street banker or whatever at 47?
Second, why does this “lost their spirit” deal apply only to teachers? I know lots of engineers who were enthusiastic about their particular technical discipline but are ground down by boneheaded corporate management (think Dilbert). People turn into “Wally” with greater frequency than we’d like to admit. Should these people also be given the shove? Or should we address the real problem common to both professions, the lousy management/administration that crushes individual spirit and rewards bootlicking?
“Second, why does this “lost their spirit” deal apply only to teachers? I know lots of engineers who were enthusiastic about their particular technical discipline but are ground down by boneheaded corporate management (think Dilbert). People turn into “Wally” with greater frequency than we’d like to admit. Should these people also be given the shove?
Short answer: YES. The point is that in a meritocracy, they are given the “shove” because there is a more capable person that will take your place. That is true with any company in a competitive industry (if they intend to stay competitive). Not true in an entrenched bureaucracy (particularly if it is unionized).
Teachers Unions Are ‘Much More Dangerous’ Than Al Qaeda
Last night on Fox News’s Hannity and Colmes, right-wing radio host Neal Boortz claimed that teachers unions are “destroying a generation” and are “much more dangerous than al Qaeda.” He stated, “Look, Al Qaeda, they could bring in a nuke into this country and kill 100,000 people with a well-placed nuke somewhere. Ok. We would recover from that. It would be a terrible tragedy, but the teachers unions in this country can destroy a generation.” Sean Hannity agreed, noting, “They are ruining our school system.” Watch it:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/20/boortz-teachers-terrorists/
I think: unions have a legitimate place in society. Too much power in one place, any place, is bad.
One doesn’t push out a teacher merely because he/she is 46 years old. One pushes out a 46 year old teacher who lost his/her spirit [for teaching] 15 years ago. The 46 year old teacher who retains his/her teaching spirit retains his/her teaching position.
MW – effects: Imagine the effects of capable teachers on a new generation.
Rheinhard,
You misunderstand. The announcement is not “they’ll be fired for the younger sexier model as soon as they hit middle age”. It’s “they’ll be fired if they’re not effective teachers at any age, no matter how long they’ve been teaching.
. . . someone shoved an iMac up Steve Jobs’ bum.
I was an earth science teacher for a few years and I completely agree with Steve Jobs. The entire system is faulty, corrupt, and run by corporate interest (among other things).
It’s sad really…
@It’s Time…
Is a classic example of the product of our schools today. Nice informative post and excellent choice of verb tense.
Rheinhard,
You miss the point. Jobs is not arguing that teachers in their 40s get pushed out because of their age, but because teaching is a passion and many loose it. When they loose it the quality of their work suffers. It isn’t just teachers either, this can happen with any type of work like you are suggesting; however, Jobs’ comments are not limited to the teaching profession, that just happens to be the subject of his speach. You assume he is only talking about teachers when in fact, he is not. In fact, he brings this up when talking about how CEOs can get rid of underperforming workers. The point of that remark is that this principle applies everywhere.
This is very consistent with the kind of excellence Steve Jobs is known for. He demands this from those who work for him and he leads by example. The quality of Apple’s products is a testament to the sort of passion and perfectionism Jobs is talking about. Using Apple computers as a metaphor, schools should be instatutions where children are challanged and mentored in excellence in an environment condusive to success the same way an Apple computer enspires you to do better work or more creative work. It serves as an inspirational tool you want to use whereas a PC serves as nothing more than a tool that you are forced to use. School should be a place children want to go not something they have to do. Teachers, good teachers are an important key to this.
There is nothing worse than being stuck in a class with a teacher who projects bordem and sees their work as work. Compare that with a teacher who is passionate and annimated, who gets the whole class interested and participating, someone who inspires and challanges you to do better. This is what Jobs is saying needs to be reflective of our education system. But this will never happen until principles have the ability to get rid of the bad and hire the good.
Apple is succesful because Jobs was able to come in and get rid of all the underperforming people, the suits, the dead weight, and hire all brilliant and talented people needed to create these computers and the software that runs on them.
My sister was hired a couple years ago to teach high school Latin in a very wealthy school system in New York state. She was fired in nine months. Why? She came out of grad school thinking that students should actually be required to do strange things like *read*, and *think*, and prepare stuff called *homework*. She quickly became known as a tough but good teacher. She never said anything controversial. She just made her students work a bit.
She made two mistakes: she gave ‘F’s to two students on a midterm exam, because, you know, they failed. And she annoyed the other two Latin teachers in the district, who were mid 50s and didn’t want to work hard, because she actually pushed her students, and the comparisons between the classes started coming out.
So the parents of the flunked students raised a royal stink. And the teachers didn’t back her up, because they were threatened by her. So the principal fired her half way through the Spring.
The current system, even where there are resources . . . SUCKS.
A problem for a teacher who has taught for 15 years and has lost the passion for teaching is how the retirement system is set up for teachers. In the retirement system I’m familar with, the retirement benefits increase dramatically once you have been in the system for 20 or 25 years. Its hard to give that up when you’ve already invested a large portion of your lifetime into that retirement system.
MacMental.
It’s speech and speak. English is strange.
Mr. Jobs!!!! Thank You, Thank You, Thank You for having the moral compass to stand up for what is right!!! In this day and age of political correctness, being afraid of saying what is right, and just a lack of common sense, it gives me a great feeling that someone out there is willing to call people out. Every other country in the world that is excelling at education runs their schools just like a business. ALL YOU POOR, BURNED OUT, AND LAZY TEACHERS OUT THERE…. IF YOU DON’T DO YOUR JOB WELL IN THE REAL WORLD…. YOU GET FIRED!!! But in “imaginary teacher world” after a couple of years of doing an “okay” job they can basically keep their job forever! No wonder that 30-40 years ago we ranked in the top 10 for education in the world and now ( by most surveys out there ) we are lucky to be ranked higher than 40th! I know there are a lot of great teachers out there. My own mother is one. I have to listen to her tell me about the teachers that hand out a lesson at the beginning of class and then they sit there for the majority of the hour either reading the newspaper, or browsing the internet. I can’t do this during my job, I would get fired. Why should you? No wonder the kids in this country are getting dumber and dumber. To those bad teachers out there…. you better start doing your job better. My hope is that with Mr. Jobs standing up for what is right there will finally be a national outcry to fix this pathetic system.
As far as unions. I know that in some organizations they are necessary. Although, THEY HAVE NO PLACE IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM. Those in charge the teachers unions know I am right. I dare you to give me an example of how they benefit the stundents in the country. Yes, I said it. THE STUDENTS ARE WHY TEACHERS ARE TEACHING. If you are just looking for a job, I hear McDonalds is hiring.
Finanlly, thanks to you Mr. Jobs. Due to your bravery for standing up for this issue I hope others in power find the guts to stand up for what is right.
I have one more thing to add…
As far as teacher pay being too low. It has been proven that when compared to other jobs of similar duties teachers are actually very well paid. AND…… they work 9-10 months out of the year ( John Stossel did this survey just a few months ago ) . If you are a teacher and you dispute this, then by all means, GET A DIFFERENT JOB! ANYTHING BUT TEACHING THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY. I DON’T WANT SOMEONE STANDING IN FRONT OF MY KIDS “TEACHING” AND COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW MUCH THEY MAKE. You are progressing this feeling of entitlement that is now running rampant with today’s youth!
The problem with the educational system is not unions who protect burned out teachers. The problem is a stifling, overly-bureaucratic administrative system that only rewards training students to take standardized tests. Instead of complaining about a union that fights to protect what small interests teachers have, let’s work on the systemic problems that lead to burn out in the first place.
“A problem for a teacher who has taught for 15 years and has lost the passion for teaching is how the retirement system is set up for teachers. In the retirement system I’m familar with, the retirement benefits increase dramatically once you have been in the system for 20 or 25 years. Its hard to give that up when you’ve already invested a large portion of your lifetime into that retirement system”
The structure of the retirement system has, in large part, been decided by the teacher’s union. They are the ones who keep forcing defined benefit retirement plans (at least in the public schools) and fight defined contribution plans such as 401(k)s or 403(b)s, which would allow teachers to get out and take their retirement savings with them at any time. This just reinforces Steve’s point about the damage the Unions are doing to the system.
Let’s not forget that the Unions work for the teachers, not for the students.
I started grade school in the early 50’s. Even then, grades K-6 were basically a baby-sitting experience.
Because I was smart, I skipped a grade—twice—but that made no difference. The same old nothing was
being “taught” in every classroom. Grades 7-12 would have been more of the same but my parents and
I had all had enough of public school. Private school was much better. The teachers probably earned
2-3 times what the public teachers made, but they probably had to actually teach competently
to keep their jobs as well!
As one contributor pointed out, it’s not about the teachers or the schools or the unions, or even Steve Jobs—
it’s about the kids and how totally short-changed they are under our present educational system.
Apple Helped How?
… and how did Steve Jobs represent Apple as a solution to the issues confronting education?
On Apple’s time Steve Jobs should propose methods and procedures Apple is capable of bringing to the challenges faced by members of EDUCAUSE.
What ever his personal philosophies may be that influence how he prefers to spend his own money I wish he’d check them at the door.
Steve was invited to showcase Apple’s vision for the education market. He was not invited to quarrel with or slander attendees.
On this day he was part of the problem, not part of Apple’s solution. He needs to keep these Bad days to a minimum.
I recently moved to the USA (Manhattan, Kansas) for 6 months. We were extremely impressed with the quality and enthusiasm of the teachers and school admin staff. They all treated the children with the utmost respect and received the same respect in return. The teachers made a tremendous effort to challenge and interest students of all ability levels. The schools had many children from low income families and military families disrupted by deployments, which added to the challenges faced by the teachers. Despite any difficulties, the teachers and staff poured heart and soul into their occupations (our children).
I guess they had an ineffectual union.
The issue raised Tergenev is crucial.
Parents have the attitude that their kid is perfect. If (s)he receives a low grade, they will raise a stink about it with the teacher and the administration rather than doing the more difficult thing of prying their kid away from their video game/cell phone/browser/TV and encouraging some study habits. And god forbid a school should propose having a kid repeat a grade… this was routine 50 years ago, but now schools have been pushed into “social promotion.”
Show me a school where teachers can fail kids, where the threat of repeating a grade is real, where teachers can kick kids out of their classroom for talking, text-messaging, etc., and where the administration will stand up to pushy parents and support teachers with high standards, and you’ll have shown me a school where most of the teachers are passionate about what they do. Coincidentally, you’ll also have shown me a school where most of the kids come out knowing something.
When you work the hours (believe me, lesson prep, grading etc. extends well past actual class time) of an engineer but get paid half as much, have responsibility for 20–40 minors for 30 hours a week but get no respect from the parents, and get abuse when you try to enforce some standards, there’s precious little incentive to go into teaching, and even less to keep your “passion” for 15 years, let alone 35.
@ Alansky and Tergenev:
Both your points ring very true. My kids are currently enrolled in a public school system. Often times, when I attend these school open houses, I ask all of my kids teachers one question; and it’s the same question: Why are students being taught how to take a test instead of teaching them how to think? No teacher could come up with the right answer. The most repetitive response I get is it’s because of NCLB. That is fine. However, the primary emphasis seems to be on NCLB only. There is no freedom to create, to explore, and in the words of Steve Jobs, to “think different.”
As an example, my daughter is currently in the 5th grade. I am already tutoring her in Algebra 1. So, I asked her teacher if she could take Algebra 1 in the 6th grade. She told me no because Algebra 1 is not taught in the 6th grade. I asked a follow up question: could my daughter take the class with 7th graders. I have not received a response to my request. They asked me if my daughter really knows the subject. I offered them to give her an entrance exam. Again, no response. Well see…
And people wonder at the popularity of Home Schooling and constantly apply negative stereotypes to it. With all the problems students face in public schools (bad teachers being only part of it) the alternatives have become the way to go to really give your child a quality education! Alternatives like private schools, religious schools, home schooling, etc. can offer greater educational opportunities for your children. Public schools have simply lost their effectiveness.
I’m glad Apple has recognized this and has extended their educational discount to homeschoolers. Thanks Apple!!
BTW, it’s interesting that even Hitler recognized this and made the statement “He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future”. If public schools “own our youth”, what is it that they are preparing for our future?
“If public schools “own our youth”, what is it that they are preparing for our future?”
Think of how life was for the typical citizen of the former U.S.S.R., or any other socialist/statist utopia, and you’ll have a good idea.
Yeah, after all, there is a crapload of competition to be a public school teacher. I understand that not being able to fire a lazy, disinterested teacher is bad. But let’s not pretend that is the one and only problem at public schools or the one and only problem about teachers. The reality is that there is not a long line of gifted young teachers that are being kept out of the system because of unions. Without plenty of quality teachers, it does not matter if there is a union or not. The underlying problem is the quality of teachers.