“I recently wrote about how 5 GB is insufficient for an iCloud account for many users, especially those who have multiple iOS devices,” Kirk McElhearn writes for Kirkville. “It would be a lot more logical for Apple to offer additional space when you buy a device from them.”
“Heck, I’ve got two Macs, an iPhone, iPad Air, iPad mini, and an iPod touch. I don’t use much of my iCloud storage, because I don’t back up a lot of data from the iOS devices,” McElhearn writes. “But still; what if I wanted to back them all up, and found that I hit the limit?”
“But there’s another problem with iCloud: it’s a black hole. When used as designed, you don’t see a file system,” McElhearn writes. “Each app that stores data on iCloud does so in its own space, and you can only access that data or those files from those specific apps. This is an annoyance. Say you’ve created a file with an app that stores your data on iCloud, and you want to view or open it in another app? On OS X, you can export the file, but on iOS you’re stuck.”
Read more in the full article here.
So if you want to misuse iCloud, you can’t? Open a file in another app? Sound like the writer is telling us how much he doesn’t know about how computers work.
Tflint – you clearly do not understand. It isn’t that I might want to open a file in another app, but I want to access files precisely as how you do so on your computer or Mac – just think of a project that you have, and you make a folder for that project on your computer. Into that folder you may have spreadsheet files, pages files, PDFs etc – all related to THE PROJECT, NOT the software that created them.
Its simply how people actually do work. Just think about it for a minute and you will understand…
Finally someone who understands the insanity that is iCloud. People just don’t work the way the iCloud paradigm is pushing. People organize files in folders with like subjects or the same project. On other platforms this is no problem, you can create a folder on your home screen, name the folder (“Business growth project” for example), and then proceed to put all files regardless of origin or file association in that folder (or at least shortcuts to them in that folder). When running out the door for a meeting you can just simple open the folder make sure you have the files you need and off you go. On iOS you literally have to sit there and open each app, 1 by 1 and scroll through the list of last opened files to find the one you are looking for in each app. This is just inefficient no matter how you slice it. No matter how great of a company Apple is, working this way is bloody inefficient.
What’s worse is they (and many other fans as well) are super sensitive when iPad is referred to as a consumption device which isn’t geared toward productivity, YET this paradigm of not being able to actually organize work products is in place…. It’s perplexing to me. I love Apple products and I don’t want to use another platform for my day to day, but I also do have legitimate work to do and while iOS has MANY MANY useful apps for getting the work done, it also works very hard to make organizing and keeping track of that work almost impossible and this makes productivity with iOS a tough sell.
Yes this sounds similar to my gripe about not being able to airdrop between iOS and Mac because of the lack of a file system (apparently) on the former. Yet for most people its not so much that there isn’t a complex file system its that there is no depository for files which can simply be accessed in one place, a universal utility which can be plugged into by other apps could surely organise, store and move/copy saved files on and off the device easily and would surely do the trick for most needs.
I have a similar experience with iWeb which is now defunct and once I can no longer use it will have similar problems of file access. If flexibility and usability of this type keeps improving on other platforms then iOS is indeed going to start looking very lightweight for productive needs. That would be very sad.
Could not agree more!
Ios not having a visible file system and not allowing to organize files as desired is a HUGE shortcoming! Annoying, , limiting and inefficient .
APPLE LISTEN !!!!!!!
The last time I was at the Apple Store, I was sitting at the Genius bar, when I noticed a Microsoft Office installation disk marked for store use. When the Genius came, I pointed to the disk and said, “That’s the cause of all our problems. Apple doesn’t use its own products.” The reason that Mail has stupid bugs is because they use Outlook. The reason they trashed Pages and replaced it with a toy that can print butterflies is because they use Word. The reason they destroyed Numbers is because they use Excel. They have booby trapped three professional applications in a row!
Now they want to store documents with the applications that create them. Even the Apple Store employees blanche at the prospect of them perpetrating that into OS X. It’s not the way people store data. So I infer that Apple doesn’t use iCloud.
I wondered out loud to an Apple employee if Apple uses Dell Computers and Microsoft Office on Windows in Cupertino. The employee didn’t smile or laugh, she turned pale and said, nervously, “I hope not.”
And now Jonny Ive is more important to Apple than the 30% of its customers who hate his UI stylings. I can’t even find the iOS Feedback page any more.
This is why we are being tossed about like a ship in a storm. Apple doesn’t pay attention to who is using what, or how they use it, and they aren’t even using their own products at all.
I pity the people who buy a Mac Pro. iCloud doesn’t work, Apple is dumbing down its apps, and OS X is turning into a cartoon. How many fourth graders need a Mac Pro? At least I bought my Apple stuff while it is still possible to avoid these “upgrades” to the software.
Apparently, you haven’t used tags before. Group your projects using tags on your Mac and all your files are contained. Doesn’t matter if they are in the cloud or saved on your local drive or NAS. You can see all files across all applications. Simple, you are just making it sound difficult and just don’t understand it’s implied simplicity.
Weren’t we supposed to have computers to sort things out for us rather than hide them?
Oh?? I didn’t realize iOS had an application built in that I could use to browse my files stored in iCloud based on how they are tagged from my Mac at home. What application is this? I’m sure a lot of people who weren’t aware of this would love to use this…
I certainly agree. The single file-by-app approach simply doesn’t work for the volume of pages documents I create. I’m told that the majority of university students can’t or simply don’t understand what a hierarchical filing system is. I use Dropbox as my ‘cloud’ because I can file in the same way on my iMac, MBAir and iPad (using Goodreader).
I create the hierarchy
Term folder
— Course 1 folder
— Course 2 folder, etc.
— Assignments folder
— documents (.pages, .pdf, .docx)
— Lectures folder
— Lecture 1 (Date) folder
— Lecture 2, etc. folder
— Assigned Reading 1 (usually .pdf) documents
— Lecture notes (usually .pages) documents
— professor’s lecture notes (usually badly formatted .docx which in review I convert to .pages, clean up, tag, rename, comment) documents
— presentation (usually .ppt which I convert to .pdf) docments
*huge eye roll* indenting by using spaces evidently doesn’t work here. I blew my own case.
More accurately, if you want iCloud to be more useful, it isn’t.
Opening a file in “another app” is something many people do every day. Export XLS to CSV for a text processor to work with. Preview a .doc using QuickLook. Open a .doc in Preview or a .ppt in Keynote because you don’t own Office or because you don’t wish to incur the ram & cpu overhead. Open an iTunes .m4a in Quicktime to edit or create a ringtone.
And so forth.
All useful thinks I do with my laptop or desktop computer. Could I open a .doc in Preview on my iPad? Well, I don’t think I have an app called Preview on my iPad. If I get such a document in my e-mail I can certainly look at it though, and I can open it in Pages if I want to do more. Similary, I don’t have Office on my iPad (and don’t intend to ever), but I can still open a .ppt in Keynote on my iPad if I want. Even if I had Excel on my iPad and I wanted to move a Numbers document into Excel (or vice versa), I could do that. So I don’t understand what the issue is. Either the things you are talking about doing are not things you do on an iPad, or they are things you can on your iPad. MacMan has a valid point above, but even there it is just a matter of a small change in your workflow. Rather than going to a folder and opening the document, you open the app then open the document. Yes, you have to remember which app to open to work on a particular document. Even my old brain can manage that.
There are PDF viewers and editors for the iPad. I very much would love to have a Preview app on my iPad/iPhone.
Kirk McElhearn is a very good writer. But he’s talking from the point of view of a computer geek who wants access to everything. I sympathize.
HOWEVER: Apple deliberately hides the iOS file system. They also deliberately hide the iCloud file system. The reason why is to allow the user to never have to think about it. ‘It just works’ the way it’s supposed to with the least possible amount of user understanding of technology.
Whether this is the best way to run iOS and iCloud is a reasonable debate IMHO. But simplicity is Apple’s goal and I don’t see that changing for Kirt or myself.
One solution: Get tools to hack into iOS and dig into the mirrored folders for iCloud on the various devices. Everything is there.
What about the middle of the road user? I don’t want to hack iOS, but I’m sick as hell of having 3 copies of my calendars floating around iCloud and not being able to just be in control. Every time I update iOS a bunch of “features” get turned on that I thought had been beaten into submission. Mac user since 1984, but pretty frustrated right now. ( Still better than the GooWin world)
There are lots of iOS hacking tools that don’t require jail breaking (Ensoul). They simply let you onto your iOS device to peruse and play around in the file system. Here are a few I know:
DiskAid
iExplorer
PhoneDisk
PhoneView
Pod to Mac
All of the above are shareware. Try the demos. At the moment I’d say DiskAid has the edge.
Wouldn’t it be easier if iOS just worked?
“deliberately hide…”
Well then they can deliberately put another stinking switch in the settings — I mean we have 4 just to adjust the colors and brightness now, since they couldn’t figure out what to leave alone in going from iOS6 to iOS7 — and make it SHOW the file system. It’s there. I see it every time I startup iExplorer on my MacBook. Just dumb (not you, Apple).
“The reason why is to allow the user to never have to think about it.”
And you seriously think that any kind of significant work of any real value can be done, or should be done, without “thinking about it”?
No, I don’t think you totally believe that, but after having an iPad for a few months (and I do like it) I realize just how little work I can actually do on it compared to OSX. It’s more useful like what a small paper note pad was, and YES it does great when you use it like that.
Heaven forbid they make OSX anything more like iOS!!!!!!!!!!! I am a content creator who uses 20+ apps, many of whom have app mandated project folders that you cannot mess with. One web project can contain hundreds of files that come from 6+ different apps. In those cases, filing by creation app is beyond insane! I use nothing but Save As in OSX so that I can visually confirm the time and location of every file save. I trusted the Lion and later variations filings systems for a few days and cost myself a lot more money than my computer cost to by because I trusted the operating system to file things where it wanted. Yes you use Time Machine, but Time Machine works a ton better when you can go back to a logical folder to restore something.
I use my iPad a lot, but the Notes app gets the most use , yes like a yellow post it note. Dropbox is wonderful, its understandable and relatively logical. Few Apple apps are worthwhile. If I have some waiting time I might use Pages to produce a draft letter, but always finish it on my old faithful Mac. I do use a good app called Notes Mobile that allows me to write on screen (oh horrors, a stylus, how Neanderthal!) because when you are taking notes while listening to a speaker, your perception is better writing as opposed to typing, try it sometime) You can then convert the writing to text and message it or email it to guess where, the MAC, the old workhorse machine that not coincidentally creates all the content that goes on iOS. (without which would be nothing except a phone.)
I, of course, was speaking about Apple’s POV, not mine, as I pointed out.
Is Apple aiming too low? Are they paying too much heed to the newbies and grannies? Judging from my-mother-the-granny, no.
Should there be a setting to access the file system? I could deal with it. But keep it hidden under the parental admin settings or similar.
And, it’s spelled ‘Mac’. ‘MAC’ is something else entirely.
The reason the iPad is a huge success is because it didn’t try to mimic the file structure used in laptops and PCs. Tablets that used that approach had existed for 10 years before the iPad and no one bought them. Making an iPad more like a laptop would take us back 15 years. Use your iPad for what it is intended to do and you don’t need a file structure.
Agreed. If you need that level of file system sophistication for “work” purposes but love the portability of the iPad – get an 11″ Air. That’s what it’s there for.
I don’t want access to everything; and I don’t think users should be able to access the entire iOS file system. I do think that iCloud documents should be accessible, though; that’s just a tiny fraction of the file system.
Hi Kirk! Certainly for we the geeks, I entirely agree.
I ABSOLUTELY agree. iOS NEEDS A FILE SYSTEM to allow access to data universally. I don’t want to have to remember which application I created a specific file in (PDF? Pages? TextEdit?) ALL data needs to be accessible within a filesystem for iOS to be taken seriously as a useful OS for business.
Apple – are you listening??????
As long as it’s simple. I’ve heard that a hierarchal file system is tough to deal with for the average user. Maybe iOS FS shouldn’t even have folders. Just filter by type and search. Tap to open; tap and hold to show the share / open with dialog.
Have you tried this with any appreciable number of files? Maybe that’s okay for Aunt Doris with her few dozen Pages files, but for 50,000 files.
In general, it’s enormously easier to look through a hierarchical file system. Yes, sometimes I forget where I put something and search with Spotlight. Sometimes it works. Just as often it doesn’t — even when I KNOW there is a file somewhere.
As Macman pointed out, we organize our work by project. If you go to a physical library, books are organized by topic, not be the type of printer they were produced with. The printer or program use to produce a physical or electronic document is IRRELEVANT to the organization of information.
Maybe tags then? Those could be your folders for those who want them. I like regular file systems, but in this case, I was thinking of Aunt Doris, not someone with 50,000 files.
I tried to use tags but I don’t see how they are useful, because I have more than 24 files.
Apple abandoned a flat filing system when it went to OS 2. The reason for that is still valid. Back then, wheels were round, and the reason for that is still valid.
A hierarchical filing system is much more flexible for everyone. If you don’t want folders, you just don’t make them. If you do want folders, you can create them. If you want a folder for each file type, you can set things up that way. If you want to file things by project, you can do that too.
The iOS way is coercive and inflexible. Notice that the iOS apps GoodReader, DropBox, and SugarSync, and especially InterConneX, let you different file types together in a hierarchy. If Apple loses its senses, there will be third-party applications that let us store files the way we want.
How do Apple employees in Cupertino store their files?
“If you don’t want folders, you just don’t make them.”
Brilliant. Aunt Doris can just have her 24 files in one lump.
“How do Apple employees in Cupertino store their files?”
Brilliant, again. I’ll put a bet down for ‘hierarchical file system’.
Not even so much a file system but as iCloud works now, if I create a txt file in app A I can only open and edit that file in app A. Even if the file is able to be opened with app B, C & D, those apps have no access to that file. To me, this is a serious limitation that makes iCloud good for syncing contacts, calendars, settings ect but useless for anything else. The 5Gb limit doesn’t worry cause I’m lucky if I use 10Mb.
I have no problem with near file systemless iOS but when opening from iCloud, all apps should be able to open any files they are capable of reading.
Not entirely true. You have to open it first in the app in which it was created then export it to another app. True, it is making a copy at that point, but you can work on a version of that document in another app. iOS devices are not laptops or desktops. They are not intended to be used as such.
Yes, but this requires the app to support the export to function. The fact that the file is initially locked to the app that created it is due to the way iClouds file system is set up, which is a way that is not friendly to sharing files between apps. IMO a mistake.
If they are not intended to be used as laptops or desktops I don’t think MS would bother with Office for iPad
Totally agree there has to be a degree of flexibility that without eventually will put an anchor hanging off iOS. Just hope someone in Apple has anticipated that and is working on a solution, visible file system or otherwise.
They will in the future.
Wishful thinking ? …….or???
And yet many people I work with can’t find the files they saved because it’s in a folder that’s in a folder that’s in a folder….
People will always find ways to misplace things. Put the files with the application, and they will forget how they named the one they want. Give them tags and they will not use them consistently.
You can’t fix a messy person by changing the file system. You will only ruin things for everyone else in the attempt.
Apple has never been that way (Mac at least). That was part of the 1980’s fight with Microsoft. In Windows you can right-click on the Desktop and select ‘make a new text document’, but with OSx/OSX you have to start the application, like Textedit, to create a new, empty text file (without 3rd party utilities which, the one that I used, was made inoperative somewhere around Snow Leopard — thanks Apple). It’s just part of their DNA. MS is file-centric and Apple is application-centric.
For me, iCloud is only used for syncing devices. No way would I use it for backup or file storage. There are other free alternatives that are much better, box for one. 50gb free.
I tried box and it was never very responsive for me on the Mac or the iPad.
I use copy now. 15GB for free. It’s not 50GB, but it works very well.
With just my iPad and two iPhones, all of my cloud space was consumed. No matter how many new devices I add to my account, the first five Gb of cloud space is all that is given away. Therefore, I will never get more than that first 5 GB of cloud space, unless I create a new Apple ID for each device, otherwise, It just merges into that first 5GB of cloud space given with the first device that is registered. I just added a 5c iphone and it couldn’t even sync because there was not enough space to backup. On a new iphone that had never been used?
Those who used to have to keep paper punch cards to keep track of their data and programs have gone the way of the dinosaur.
Those who used to have to keep 8″ floppy discs to keep track of their data and programs have gone the way of the dinosaur.
Those who used to have to keep 5.25″ floppy discs to keep track of their data and programs have gone the way of the dinosaur.
Those who used to have to keep 3.5″ floppy discs to keep track of their data and programs have gone the way of the dinosaur.
Those who used to have to keep R/W CD’s to keep track of their data and programs have gone the way of the dinosaur.
Technology progresses and search is the way to find your files rather than antiquated file systems. The only value a file system seems to give is a visual feedback to the data owner that the file is really stored. I can buy that ‘feedback’ argument but I will never care which physical part of the disc that my file is stored on and I will never care how it is stored anywhere else as long as I have easy access to it with a POWERFUL SEARCH tool.
iOS doesn’t have either…
Really? I use it all the time.
I can’t search for a document name on my iPhone/iPad. Nor can I save a document from an email to a particular location, like a project/client folder. That’s a problem.
Use the drop down search facility to search by document name. Use Goodreader to store files and docs related to a specific project. Problem solved.
You are comparing physical storage media with file storage techniques. That isn’t a valid comparison. Aside from the paper punch cards, I used hierarchical file systems on all those media.
Back in the days when dinosaurs weren’t just in zoos, I used a telex machine to create paper tape that stored data—but I used a telephone modem to upload it to a computer that stored it in a hierarchical file system.
Bully for you that you can use Spotlight to find everything. Must we all standardize on your technique, or can we each use our own?
You missed the point. Old methods are replaced with new methods and now we don’t have to file it in folders the internet isn’t arranged on folders but searches find things.
No, you just gave bad examples for your point. You didn’t make list of methods, you made a list of media. I don’t think you could show a similarly rapid turnover of methods.
Beginning with MS-DOS 2 and Apple’s System 2, we’ve used a hierarchical file system. We changed the storage media, but not the storage method.
Files on the internet are in directories. Just look at the URLs as you go through a web site. The web master is the equivalent of the computer user, because they both create, store, edit, retrieve files. Both use a hierarchical file system to do it.
You are right. It has always been done that way and there is no possible way to replace it, just like the QWERTY keyboard. It is intrenched. No one can imagine a better way to do it. Apple has to fall into line with everyone else.
“The only value a file system seems to give is a visual feedback to the data owner that the file is really stored”
Which is totally critical to the survival of a project that I may have 100 hours invested using hundreds of files from different apps.
If I were a firemen putting out a fire, I want to know RIGHT NOW where the water is.
I don’t agree with the “blackhole” comment. But I 100% agree with the idea that storage space should be scaled by owned/purchased device.
For some reason, Apple gave up the space now filled by Dropbox and other such cloud services. MobileMe, while flawed, had a file/folder interface that enabled the user to back up files in a conventional file-based organization. No question iCloud has dropped that model, and we need to think differently to make best use of it. There is reason to believe that the world is moving to a more app-based paradigm. Apple certainly thinks so.
I agree that working on projects with multiple docs created in multiple app can be awkward on iOS. But for home use, I find iCloud very functional. Open Numbers, select spreadsheet, move on with life.
The problem is that Apple has never clearly explained their reasoning behind the way iCloud works. It was intended to be a ‘simple’ backup mechanism that hides its inner workings from the average user, who is easily confused with the nuts and bolts of technology. This approach is consistent with the design of the iPad as well: to hide its complexity. As many users on this Forum have already noted, this simplicity is annoying to the more experienced or advanced users. What is needed is a more ‘advanced’ version of iCloud that works similar to DropBox, but it is also possible that Apple may have entered into some agreement with DropBox not to imitate their methodology.
DropBox fills the general purpose cloud file storage niche very well, including on iOS. iCloud fills the specialized inter-Apple device synchronizing need well, plus an email service. Apples and oranges, so to speak.
I’m not saying Apple got it right with IOS. There are many confusing and inefficient workflows in IOS when viewed from a computer user’s prspective. From the perspective of non-computer users, IOS and iCloud is really simple and almost idiot proof.
I see this everyday within my own family and circle of friends. All of my relatives have Macs and they love them. The number one issue that I help them with is finding lost files. They can’t remember what they named it, they don’t remember what folder it’s in, they end up with copies (or worse, aliases) all over the place, they can’t save a photo attaced to an email into iPhoto, etc. The list goes on and on. They expect the applications to be smarter about where files are saved and accessed. These all seem like obvious and intuitive things to me, but…
Haven’t read the McElhearn article ’cause he gets one thing wrong…you can open iOS docs from the originating app in ANOTHER app (do it all the time). For example, you want to open a Numbers file in another app (as a PDF, CSV, Excel, etc.):
1. Make sure you’re in the Numbers spreadsheet view
2. Tap the icon to the right of the + icon
3. Select Open in Another App
4. Tap the spreadsheet you want to open externally
5. In the Open in Another App view, select the file format (PDF, Excel, CSV)
6. In the next Open in Another App view, click Choose App
7. When the carousel menu slides up from the bottom, scroll to select the app (you do need to have an app the can open the format previously selected)
What if you don’t have that app to open the file? That’s the whole point of my article. As you said, you didn’t read it…
Oh come on…seriously?!!
There’s this thing call the apple app store, and you can find an app to open the most common file formats like doc, xls, csv, pdf, txt, etc.
A good app is GoodReader…it would have made your article a lot shorter. (You’re welcome)
Sure, but they can’t access files scared to iCloud by other apps.
Scared = saved. Sorry, auto-correct.
That’s true, Files are stored inside the originating app, so you can easily find them and open them, assuming you can remember which app you used to create them. If you delete an app, you delete all of the files it created. In iOS, that is always a danger. In a hierarchical file system, that is never a danger.
7 steps…..hmmmm ……..well ok if thats what you want
Don’t Apple employees use their own stuff? It’s inconceivable to me to write software that doesn’t at least work for ME first. That usually covers 80% of my users and then I work on the needs of the other 20%ers. It’s just goofy that they put up with their own bugs for as long as we have to…or maybe they don’t. Maybe their stuff in-house gets fixed right away and then they don’t have to worry about it. How many tens of thousands of built-in beta testers do they have (i.e. employees)? Do they use them, or do they listen to them as well as they seem to listen to us? I mean there have been some blatant bugs lately that COULDN’T have been missed in any sensible beta-testing program. The salesmen are in the building. It’s gotta be done by THIS date, so too bad if there are bugs. Am I rambling? I’m a programmer, and I just can’t believe the state of some of their stuff.
careful, Bob. If you say anything hinting that Apple isn’t perfect, then some of the rabid MDN fanboys will label you a troll. It is reassuring that several people here have the fortitude to speak the truth.
The solution to iOS, i have found, is to ditch it and use a MacBook Pro with Mac OS X 10.6.8, no iCloud. It’s relatively easy to host and share one’s own data, so we don’t pay someone else to do it for us. The blind worship of Apple and its hobbled consumer-grade services is beyond pathetic, so bravo to those who point out Apple’s failings. We can only hope that Cook & Co. are listening. Personally, I think Cook is deaf dumb and blind to the Mac community and appears not to understand how badly Apple has fallen behind the competition in iOS either.
This is exactly why I want iOS to mount like a USB thumb drive and show up like your Home Directory in OS X. So all your application data would go under Applications and have its own folder under it with the files, etc. Then Music, Photos, Videos, Movies, SMS or Messages, etc. Then you can add and remove items as you please, back up to iCloud as it wants, etc.
As it sits now its too closed for me and difficult to use if you want to transfer between your devices. Its almost easier to just use Google Drive or something like that and have it sync on your devices and computers.
But if your at work or school you don’t have the option and that is where I want iOS to mount like a thumb drive.
I’m not sure all that is necessary. I’d simply like a Documents folder, which would contain files saved to iCloud; not data, such as contacts, calendars, and other app data. I don’t want access to music that way; what’s the point? Same with movies and photos; you can access that content easily enough.
I found a cool little workaround:
Install Parallels. It presents your iCloud space to windows as a file system.
Enjoy!