“Apple Inc. CEO Steve Jobs lambasted teacher unions Friday [at an education reform conference in Austin, Texas], claiming no amount of technology in the classroom would improve public schools until principals could fire bad teachers,” April Castro reports for The Associated Press.
MacDailyNews Take: Never have we agreed more with anything Steve Jobs has ever said.
Castro reports, “Jobs compared schools to businesses with principals serving as CEOs. ”What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn’t get rid of people that they thought weren’t any good?’ he asked to loud applause during an education reform conference. ‘Not really great ones because if you’re really smart you go, ‘I can’t win.””
Castro reports, “In a rare joint appearance, Jobs shared the stage with competitor Michael Dell, founder and CEO of Dell Inc. Both spoke to the gathering about the potential for bringing technological advances to classrooms. ‘I believe that what is wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way,’ Jobs said. ‘This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy.'”
Castro reports, “At various pauses, the audience applauded enthusiastically. Dell sat quietly with his hands folded in his lap. ‘Apple just lost some business in this state, I’m sure,’ Jobs said. Dell responded that unions were created because ‘the employer was treating his employees unfairly and that was not good. So now you have these enterprises where they take good care of their people. The employees won, they do really well and succeed.'”
Full article here.
[Thanks to MacDailyNews Reader “Bizarro Ballmer” for the heads up.]
One very big reason why the state of U.S. public education is woeful is precisely because of what Jobs said today. And Michael Dell is a simpering ass-kisser who’s more concerned about saddling schools with his garbage PCs and reaping the profits than speaking the truth and trying to effect positive change. Those are two facts, as clear as can be.
Apparently, at the conference Dell also did not utter a peep about shutting down companies and giving the money back to the shareholders.
Two more points:
• Teachers for too many years were grossly underpaid, but at least you knew the majority of teachers weren’t in it for the money.
• While unionization served teachers very well, it has grown beyond what it should be. The situation is currently out of balance and has been negatively affecting the quality of U.S. public education for years.
And, before anyone starts, let it be known that we’re not jumping on the bandwagon just because Jobs said it. We’ve been on this bandwagon for years. One such example:
MacDailyNews Take (March 29, 2005): Teachers who don’t want to learn new things should be fired immediately. Sorry for the burst of truth, NEA. The NEA’s Code of Ethics of the Education Profession states: “In fulfillment of the obligation to the student, the educator shall not unreasonably restrain the student from independent action in the pursuit of learning. Shall not unreasonably deny the student’s access to varying points of view. Shall not deliberately suppress or distort subject matter relevant to the student’s progress.” The NEA has been around since 1857; supposedly “working to provide great public schools.” However, U.S. public schools are generally woeful. Is it the National Education Association or the National Education Anchor? Perhaps it’s time America tried something else, something that’s actually effective and improves the nation’s public school system?
Related article:
Apple CEO Steve Jobs: ‘I’m going to just stay away from all that political stuff’ – August 25, 2004
Mac Fan,
it is too bad that you apparent hatred for unions clouds your thought process with bias. Perhaps something in your past has created such anger since you cannot get through to logic. I do detect a bit of jealousy over the comments that you want to be payed the same as union members. Perhaps further education might be in order…but no. Then you would have to endure those unionized, lazy, good for nothings. No, no stay in you present job and seek therapy.
I’m sure that most schools now have more WinPC’s due to Apple dropping the ball more than teachers.
There are no more bad teachers percentage-wise in schools than any other business. Bad teacher do get fired quite easily. The NEA union is a toothless lion due to Politicians using it as a whipping boy to divert people from the Politician underfunding the school systems. So I’m not sure what union Steve and MacDaily is talking about.
We are a leading wealthly nation and our schools are dying from underfunding and undersupport. Someday we’ll be so far behind other nations I believe we’ll need to turn this around or become a 3rd world nation.
James wrote: “I just love how MDN kisses Steve Jobs ass. Jesus that is so sickening… This site is becoming so incredibly stupid and predictable.”
You must be chronologically impaired. MDN was there first. If anything, Jobs is kissing MDN’s ass.
MDN and Jobs are both correct.
My state of Wisconsin is fairly generous to teachers’ pay. But there are far too many bureaucratic layers of hierarchy in the administative level.
There is far too much waste on meetings that accomplish nothing, while ignoring what teachers need in the classroom. Also political correctness in this state has run amok.
I do fault WEAC, our state’s union, to cover for bad teachers. But guess what, there are a lot of parents out there that don’t get involved at all in their kids’ education. How can you expect a kid to succeed when the parents don’t care?
Take a look at Milwaukee public schools. They have one of the highest dropout rates in the nation. Why do you think the charter school system started there has taken off? WEAC has fought this vehemently because it affects their union. Somehow they overlook the kids in that equation.
Sorry, Ron.
You caught me with my pants down.
You can stop looking now.
Also, I went to school in many cities, too many, but I finished in a small, rural district with little money and many dedicated teachers.
I’m on the same page with Big Al on much of this if my small town, lysdexic, urban dictionary self read it right.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=per+say
We may not all be teachers(though many in my family are), but we have all been taught, and know what it was in those people that inspired and intriqued us to learn. If someone is teaching just to make a buck, let them work on the highway. That’ll teach THEM a lesson!
Mr. Jobs,
I think my family and I have brought tens of thousands of dollars of your computer equipment and promoted the mac at work. Your blame for the dumbing down of American education is misplaced and you really don’t know what you are talking about. Try going to a middle school and teaching a class for a week while the focus of the whole school is preparing for a NCLB standardized test.
It’s really one of the most assinine statements you have ever made and pretty fascist. Either shut up or build a school the way you think it should run through a foundation. Make that several schools in several deprived areas. Teacher and unions are not incompetent, school systems and curricula that only serve the elite and antquated goals of the past two centuries are the cause of the problems. Many of those “educational CEO’s “are principals because they could not cut it in the classroom. What you said was bullshit. In fact the unions do not fight hard enough for teachers, and they are too often hand in glove with management. If they did more schools might have Macs.
pjstef:
The school=workplace analogy is flawed because we teachers can’t fire bad students- we have to educate everyone who walks through the door, no matter what language they speak or disabilities they have. You wouldn’t evaluate a manager if the manager couldn’t get rid of “F” employees. Besides, every teacher in California goes through a 2 year probationary period when they can be let go at any time. 2 years is plenty of time to know whether someone is right for the job and it it the administrators and the school board- not the unions- which hire and fire teachers.
You can’t fire bad students? No, but you can fail them.
Two year probationary period? Not good enough.
Just because someone performs well today, doesn’t mean that they will perform well in ten years. With a fire-proof safety net, where is the motivation to do well?
I am a sales manager at a car dealership. I got to where I am by repeatedly outperforming my peers. I have a stellar sales career history, but if I decide to stop performing today, I wouldn’t expect my dealership to keep me around just because I’ve been working there for nine years. I would expect them to expect more from me.
The business of business is propaganda. The business of teaching is education. The more education becomes like business; the more it purpose becomes one of propaganda
Thanks, Steve. I’m so glad I purchased more stock, JUST BEFORE YOU OPENED YOUR F@$KING MOUTH.
As usual, Frank Zappa was prescient. (Who announced on the Tonight Show that the Berlin Wall would fall? Frank.)
Here’s a sample from his 1983 song, “Stick Together”.
You Can’t Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 4
UMRK, c. 1981-82
FZ–lead vocals
Ray White–vocals
Ike Willis–vocals
Arthur Barrow–bass, rhythm guitar
Chad Wackerman–drums
This is a song about the union, friends
How they fucked you over and the way they bends
The rules to suit a special few
And you gets pooched every time they do
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
Once upon a time the idea was good
If only they’d a done what they said they would
It ain’t no better, they’s makin’ it worse
The labor movement’s got the Mafia curse
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
Don’t be no fool, don’t be no dope
Common sense is your only hope
When the union tells you it’s time to strike
Tell the motherfucker to take a hike
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ray: You can have a good thing . . . )
(Ike: You gotta stick, you gotta stick, yeah . . . )
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ray: A thing might you can do . . . )
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: I’m a bit . . . day-ay-yeah . . . )
(Ray: . . . )
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: I gotta need, yeah, I gotta need)
(Ray: Talkin’ ’bout men!)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: But . . . good for me today)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ray: . . . oh, y’all)
(Ike: I know you told me, I gotta be a diggin’ blind)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ray: . . . town)
(Ike: Unemployment line, unemployment line)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: I wanna know, I wanna know, I wanna know, yeah . . . )
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: Oh yeah . . . )
(Ray: Send my check was in a mess . . . )
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: Get in the line!)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ray: Talkin’ ’bout some . . . )
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
YEAH, GIVE EVERY STUDENT A FREE IPOD SO THEY HAVE TO LISTEN TO THE LESSON, THE TEACHER, OR THEIR PARENTS.
Of course, now that I think of it, EVEN EARLIER, Frank was on the cutting edge (sorry MDN, but if you want to be inflammatory, well…).
Here, Frank Zappa accurately describes the mindset of the neo-cons, in a RAP SONG (way BEFORE rap was popularized by black musicians) in 1981!
Isn’t it delicious, how he eludes to the right (wrong) being in bed with the “christian coalition”, even as right now, the truth is coming out, how the Bush administration has DISDAIN for the people who fleeced him into office! (values, bla bla, bs, bs).
Whoever we are
Wherever we’re from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It’s gonna take a lot more
Than tryin’ to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether
They call it THE EARTH
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
‘Cause we behave the same…
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near’n far
Dumb all over
Black ‘n white
People, we is not wrapped tight
Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religious fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin’ the Bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
‘Bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don’t believe in the book
We got over here
You can’t run a race
Without no feet
‘N pretty soon
There won’t be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won’t blow up
‘N disappear
It’ll just look ugly
For a thousand years…)
You can’t run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state
TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Hooray! That’s great
Two legs ain’t bad
Unless there’s a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get down!)
Not his, not hers (but what the hey?)
The Good Book says:
“It’s gotta be that way!”
But their book says:
“REVENGE THE CRUSADES. . .
With whips ‘n chains
‘N hand grenades. . .”
TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?
Have another and another
Our Cod says:
“There ain’t no other!”
Our Cod says
“It’s all okay!”
Our God says “This is the way!”
It says in the book:
“Burn ‘n destroy. ..
‘N repent, ‘n redeem
‘N revenge, ‘n deploy
‘N rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
‘Cause they don’t go for what’s in the book
‘N that makes ’em BAD
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb
To poof them out of existence
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise OURGOD
(“Cause he can really take care of business!”)
And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
It’s okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
‘Cause if we don’t do it,
We ain’t gwine up to hebbin!
(Depending on which book you’re using at the time…
Can’t use theirs. . .it don’t work . . .it’s all lies…Gotta use mine…)
Ain’t that right?
That’s what they say
Every night…
Everyday. ..
Hey, we can’t really be dumb
If we’re just following
God’s Orders
Hey, let’s get serious…
God knows what he’s doin’
He wrote this book here
An’the book says:
He made us all to be just like Him,”
so…
If we’re dumb…
Then God is dumb…
(An’ maybe even a little ugly on the side)
I forgot to mention, Frank was using MAC as far back as OS 7.
Jobs is 100% wrong. His response is typical of a person who knows nothing about education. We are in a situation where rude, disrespectful students and parents are running the schools. The SOCIETY is the problem, not the hard working underpaid teacher. The blame for everything always trickles down to the teacher, yet the teachers have little or no control over anything! The districts, boards, superintendents and principals waste all the money on stupid B.S. programs and then give teachers a $100 budget for the year. I’ve worked with hundreds of teachers over the years and there are very few bad ones. People who are not in the education field usually think they know something about education because they went through the system as a student. WRONG. Teaching is the hardest job on the planet. I’ve seen great teachers leave the profession becuase of horrible PARENTS, STUDENTS and ADMINISTRATORS. The teacher/student relationship is the most important important of teaching and it can NOT be boxed into a stupid “business model.” Why doesn’t Steve Jobs and The Macdailynews go get an opinion on the efficiency of brain surgeons, mosquito abatement workers, or something else they KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT.
Why don’t we pay teachers (and police, fire, etc.) on a scale commiserate with their value?
No child left behind, eh?
What do the troubled youth of today need???
The new 80GB iPod of course!!!
Who was pandering to who?
It’s not the kids fault… it’s the bad teachers fault.
Sounds like Jobs is pandering to his 14 year old fan base(customers)!
Old Stevie boy knows what side his bread is buttered on>
“@ WIllie – Perhaps you should kick your own “lazy ass” in the ass and get a decent job so that your jealousy won’t be so transparent.”
Been there Willie, done that. 30 years ago, I worked for a union (USWA) for 6 years. Regardless of how well I done my job, regardless of how much effort I put in, I got the same pay as the next guy. If the next guy missed 5 days of work each month, came to work drunk, and accomplished nothing in 8 hrs, he got paid the same as I did (afterall, he was our “brother”).. Of course he couldn’t be fired, he was our “brother” and if the company wanted to fire a piece of shit like that, the union threated to “walk out”. Union are more than happy to protect scum like that… Absolutely Pathetic.
Best thing that ever happened to me was getting laid off (as the plant shut down) and going back to school before taking a job in Construction/Project Management.
No thanks Willie. I’m going to retire in 5 years at age 55. My retirement will be good thanks to a good salary, good bonuses, merit raises, and smart investing (my 401k is lookin real good)….
Being 1/2 assed successful in life requires personal responsibility. I chose a path where I could get compensated based on my skill sets and the effort I put forth. If you’re not willing to work hard to get ahead, I agree, join a Union. You’ll get paid the same salary and benefits whether you sit on your lazy ass all day, or bust it. They’ll “protect” you from the “evil” company.
And the 83% of the nation who works without one know it… Unionism is nothing more than socialism.
Always-
Joni Mitchell was rappin before that. Of course, she gave credit to the street musicians she learned it from.
Mac Fan, I see the truth comes out about you union experience. Unfortunately you relate that experience to teaching and it really is apples and oranges. Teachers or at the least the ones I know are not in the profession to become rich. Buut that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be compensated fairly. A Union protects that aspect. Most teachers have salary increases based on longevity and/or credit earned. The Union sees to that. Most, but not all teachers pay something into their health insurance. The Union takes care of that. I think you might see where I’m going. You wanted to go into a job experience where you could be rewarded on job performance. Good for you. Is there job protection in teaching? Yes, the Union takes care of that. In your chosen experience there is no job protection and even though you are doing a great job, there is little insurance that you cannot be fired because you earn too much money. I think things basically balance. By the way, my future pension is looking good and my 403B is looking even better!
If you are so smart, teach.
The last thing kids need is a bloody iPod. Cell phones and iPods DO NOT belong inside of the classroom. Tell this to the stupids that allow students to bring them to school in the first place. The teachers have to deal with students texting each other or taking pictures of the teacher (without their permission) and display them for all to see. This is the stupidity of what I have to deal with every day…
The next time a “gimmie” kid wants a cell phone or an iPod, parents do the right thing for once. Tell them to get a bloody job and work for it on their own. My God, they would actually have to work for something. What a shocker!
Firstly, I am not surprised to read threads that the problem with education is the student, the parent, the administrator but NOT THE TEACHERS. This is the typical hubris and irresponsibility of typical NEA and union member.
Secondly, I am confused by the threads that rate teaching as one of the most awful and frustrating jobs that one could be cursed with performing. Who are these idiots who waste four years of their lives at university to take on the responsibilities of teaching is the job is so damn repugnant? Obviously, someone with no intelligence would waste four years of their lives for a job that causes them daily grief and misery, but then again, maybe people with no intelligence are the perfect NEA and union member.
Thirdly, is any amount of money just compensation for the rigors of teaching in a government school? Why don’t the brightest and most inventive teachers form their own private school system? They could “pick and choose” their students and parents and act as their own administrators and this would certainly eliminate the REAL problem, eh? Perhaps, in private practice they would be held accountable for their performance and that would be too stressful, so best avoid the responsibility of individual behavior and blame everyone else.
@ Huh?
No one said there are not bad teachers that should not be teaching. I am all for getting rid of them and having COMPETENT teachers in the classroom that are actually trained in their field. This is why I go to a university (Western Governors University) that produces COMPETENT teachers, not ones that have sat in a classroom getting C’s and D’s. Teachers should be trained in their respective fields, hence why I am being trained as a MATHEMATICS teacher. Most Math teachers are not even trained in the Mathematics field, which is the reason why Math scores are so pathetic in the US.
I recently joined the NEA as a Student Member, but mainly for the reason of providing me $1,000,000 in liability insurance coverage in case a student fabricates something and tries to get me in trouble just to have fun. In the case of a false accusation against me, I will be prepared to sue the parents of that child and the child as well, because if there is one thing I do not like in this world is someone accusing me of something I have not done. That really pisses me off to no end. I am not going to have my teaching career ruined by some mischievous little bastard that is hell bent on causing trouble. This is the reality of what we have to deal with in the classroom today. We have to constantly be watching our backs to make sure we don’t offend anyone which is absolutely ridiculous IMO.
Teachers are held accountable under the “No Child Left Behind” Act that your stupid political leaders signed into law. The NCLB is destroying good teachers and many of them are leaving the teaching profession because of this stupid and ridiculous law that President Bush claims is the savior of public education. All the NCLB is doing is forcing the public school system into ruin. What will happen when the system collapses? Private schools will open, and the losers will be poor people of all races in America. This is what the neo-cons want, and people like you are stupid enough to fall for it, hook, line, and sinker.
So are you saying that all NEA members are irresponsible? Are you saying I lack intelligence? If so, you can kiss my Royal Canadian Ass. For your enlightenment, I am very responsible (hence why I care about students and what they learn in Mathematics and why I am so vocal about education) and I am quite intelligent as well (IQ > 140). I have my mother to thank for teaching me how to respect authority and my elders. As a Canadian by birth, I can actually name all 50 states and their capital cities, and I can actually name almost all of the members of your present government. In addition, I know a lot about American history, unlike most Americans today. Soon, I am going to be an American citizen, one that will actually care about what is happening in this great land. I deserve American citizenship more than most of the people that were born in this country, and that is the honest truth.
Have you actually stepped foot in the American classroom of today? Many kids have absolutely no respect for themselves, let alone the teachers and administrators. Read my long postings on page 2 and you might be able to fathom why the school system is the way that it is presently. The root of the problem is what parents teach their kids, and I don’t know why people like you cannot see this. Kids learn the disrespect they have for teachers and authority from somewhere. It sure wasn’t from the teachers, you bloody idiot.
Note to all that care about students and education in the USA…
Over this weekend, I have decided that I am going to write a book on the state of education in the United States. I am presently discussing this project with another teacher, for her to become a co-author of the book. We had a very lengthy discussion on Thursday about education in the US, and I must have her as a co-author because she sees the “big picture” like I do. Her experience and views compliment mine greatly. The funny thing is that she is originally from Canada – it’s funny how Canadians can see the problems in the American education system. LOL
If any teachers out there would like to contribute something regarding your experience as a teacher, I would greatly appreciate it. You may send any submissions to jamesnrhodesATgmailDOTcom. Subjects may include classroom management, NCLB, your specific subject, administrators, parents, students, etc. Thank you and I am looking forward to reading your submissions.
@James
You are so right about what will happen with private schools. Here is an example.
I was in Dallas about 6 years ago in very nice upper middle class neighborhood with a friend.
He pointed out a school and told me he went there as a boy (he was in his late 40’s)
I said it looked like a very good school, he laughed and told me it was in the control of the state for
failing. I asked how can this happen? It was in such a good neighborhood.
He told me years before the city had to succumb to a failing area of Dallas and start to bus students from
one side of Dallas to the other because of failing schools. This once high achieving school was now on the state
list to be taken over with the same teachers and administration that make it succesful.
Beside the transformation of this school it created another stigma. Local families did not want to send their kids
to this school. The two local private schools were now swamped with requests to get into them. The waiting list
was 5 years and the tuition tripled in price. I’m sure some more private schools have opened since than but at what cost?
I know where I live in NY top private schools go for 25K a year for tuition. Even if the student has a voucher in hand the private school
can charge what ever they want for tuition and pick the students they want.