“Most of [Baltimore County] school system’s computers are PCs running Microsoft Windows software, but not in the labs for the graphic and multimedia programs, until now. School system leaders say the move makes sense because it will make it easier to provide technical support and because graphic design software is available for both platforms,” Liz F. Kay reports for The Baltimore Sun. “…the Apple logo has given way to the waving Windows icon in Baltimore County schools’ graphic design and multimedia computer labs…”
Kay reports, “Still, some say future graphic artists should learn using Macs. ‘If people are specifically interested in a career in graphic arts, to not be exposed at all to the Mac is probably a disadvantage,’ said Kevin Keane, president of IAPHC, an international graphic professionals’ network.”
“The Baltimore County Public Schools . . . has embarked on a quality journey, a journey that will take us to our goal of becoming one of the premier school systems in the nation.” – quote from the website of Dr. Joe A. Hairston, Superintendent of Baltimore County Public Schools.
“Students and staff can share information efficiently if everyone uses compatible equipment. ‘All of this can happen only if we’re all on the same operating platform,’ said schools spokeswoman Kara Calder,” Kay reports.
“The debate over Macs versus Windows reaches levels of almost religious fervor, with bloggers and Web sites monitoring every statement made for or against either operating system. Most agree that graphics firms chiefly use Macs because their software was originally designed for that operating system,” Kay reports. “Until recently, up to 90 percent of most printing plants used Macs, said Keane, the president of the graphic professionals’ network. It’s now easier to work in either platform, but he estimated about three-quarters of businesses still use Macs.”
“Jill Schuchart, a student in Eastern Technical High School’s multimedia communications program, said she and other classmates were disappointed when they heard the news. They remembered how the PCs always crashed at the multimedia program at Parkville Middle,” Kay reports. “She recalls thinking, ‘Oh, great. It’s going to be like in eighth grade again, when we couldn’t work on our projects.'”
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: Obviously, Baltimore County Public Schools’ initial plan — to substitute lead paint chips for sliced turkey in school lunches — was deemed less effective than the above scheme in achieving their ultimate goal of impairing their children’s mental abilities. Someone ought to tell these geniuses in Maryland that Macs can run Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows natively, before they flush any more of the taxpayers’ money down the toilet. It’s not a religious argument; it’s an argument about providing the best you can for your students or shackling them to cheap, limited, mediocre Windows-only PCs due to budgetary concerns or, even worse, due to the type of plain old ignorance evidenced in Baltimore County.
What’s better for education, Mac or PC? Info: http://www.macvspc.info/
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Related articles:
Boot Camp could be big win for Apple Macs in schools – April 12, 2006
Dude, you got a Dell? What are you, stupid? Only Apple Macs run both Mac OS X and Windows! – April 05, 2006
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And employer, what’s the first thing I look for in hiring a graphic designer?
Can he use a Mac? No, not that.
Can he use a PC? No, not that.
I look at their Work! I look to see if they have actual talent. Talented people can produce good results on either platform.
Application skills on the PC are easily transferred to the Mac and vice versa. But you can’t just move a talentless person from a PC to a Mac or vice versa and expect great things.
So good luck Employer with your strange “test”.
“”all TCO/ROI studies to date have favoured the Mac over Windows”
Actually the ones funded by Apple or done by somone with a pro Apple axe to grind favor the Mac.
Strangely enough the ones funded by Microsoft or with a pro Microsoft axe to grind favor the PC.”
LMAO!!!! Do you read ANY of the tons of articles? These TCO studies are done over and over again by many consultants of many biases… And the MAC, again and again and again, comes out on top, damn close to 100% of the time, because TIME IS MONEY. And the Windows platform, especially when HUMANS (not Geeks) are involved, simply takes MORE time to mess with – more things can and DO go wrong. That takes time to fix. Which costs money.
Are you foolish enough to think BIAS is the cause?
Here’s one more thing to chew on, if ya got the teeth for it – PCs typically install up to TWICE as many files per program than the Macintosh… That’s way more files to keep track of… and way more files to potentially become corrrupt or lost…
DO THE MATH.
I still haven’t heard a reasoned reply to these facts:
-Dell workstations are not much cheaper (if any) than iMacs for school districts because these districts (unless they are horribly corrupt) can’t just go out and buy the cheapest box Dell sells. They have to meet state standards and buy vendor support agreements.
-Macs TCO *is* cheaper (do some research. look at any numbers not funded by MS or some MS certification group)
-Macs come with iLife 06…a better suite of integrated creative content edu level apps can’t be found on a Windows box *at any price.*
-Macs (for now iMacs and soon, I’m sure, a cheaper edu. targeted desktop) can run Windows *just as well* as any HP or Dell box.
Read that last part again, those of you who are advocating for Windows. *Mac run Windows just as well as a WIndows OEM box!*
What on earth is the justification for replacing Macs with Windows boxes given those facts? I’m not trying to troll…I would *really* like to know what reasons Windows advocates are putting out there.
“That’s way more files to keep track of”
Yes, modern computers have lots of problems keeping track of files, turn you back and those sneaky files just vanish!
You can’t be serious putting this theory forward, can you? I mean can you? Well you did, perhaps you’re joking like the bazooka suicide guy. It’s just such a dumb idea.
“again and again and again, comes out on top, damn close to 100% of the time”
Show some evidence that even remotely sustains that position.
“Are you foolish enough to think BIAS is the cause?”
Are you foolish enough to beleive vendor sponsored research? Clearly yes.
“MAC, again and again and again, comes out on top, “
Point is if any Corporation, after passing the articles thru it’s own BS filters actually beleived them, they’d be flocking to the Mac. And it’s not happening.
What does that tell you?
It should tell you that most people don’t agree with your analysis.
Jobs;
“”all TCO/ROI studies to date have favoured the Mac over Windows”
Actually the ones funded by Apple or done by somone with a pro Apple axe to grind favor the Mac.”
Nice try but you’re out to lunch with that claim.
As mentioned by a Corporate Mentality, it’s been independent studies (Gartner, Aussie police service, Japanese bank (?), etc) that have favoured Macs.
“Strangely enough the ones funded by Microsoft or with a pro Microsoft axe to grind favor the PC.”
Not strange at all since it’s only MS-sponsored studies that go Windows way.
I Still Don’t Get It:
TCO: Jury’s still out on that one. Each side claims they’re the best (as does the Linux world).
iLife: Depends what you’re trying to teach. If it’s skills relevent to using a computer in corporate America, WinXP, IE, Office etc. are much more relevant.
If it’s playing with photos, movies and music you want, then you can get apps for the PC for that too.
Run Windows just as well:
Sure, but PCs are still cheaper. Yes perhaps the equivalently configured PC is closer to the same Mac but that ignores the fact that you can get 85% of the performance and 100% of the functionality for about half the price of the Mac. Lots of people, not just schools, are just fine with that compromise.
A Dell that pretty much matches the MacBook Pro is $1422 (compared to a $2148 MacBook once you upgrade the memory and add a modem to match the Dell), a Dell that matches the $1099 MacBook costs $839.
The entry level Dell notebook comes in at $499.
The cheapest Dell desktop with monitor costs $299.
The cheapest mac desktop costs $660 or so with a 3rd party 17″ monitor.
All prices are Quantity 1, retail.
So you’re a school, what do you do. Buy $499 Dells or $1099 MacBooks? $299 Dells or $660 Mac Minis?
Also don’t forget to add $80 to the Mac price for the educational version of Windows.
Your budget is fixed. You can have 30 Macs or 55 Dells. (or 30 Mac notebooks instead of 70 Dell ones) Which is best for your students? More PCs, or fewer Macs?
independent studies (Gartner, Aussie police service, Japanese bank (?), etc
lets quote from 2002 and one of Gartner’s studies:
“Last week, Apple Australia publicized a finding by research firm Gartner that found Macs are 36 percent cheaper to own and maintain than their Windows/Intel counterparts, based on a study carried out with Melbourne University.
Gartner now has restated its findings, claiming that the original data referred to a specific scenario and that the stated results do not represent the firm’s overall position on Mac total cost of ownership (TCO).
Apple Apologizes…
“
“If TCO is the only measure, than the lowest TCO we have seen is for a yellow pad and a pencil, with an equally lower ROI as well,” the department said.
“
“They don’t occur that often but other TCO/ROI studies (in Macs favour) have come from Gartner (pay to access), an Australian police service (about 1-1.5 years back)”
Source MacCanuck posting on ZDNet
Touche
Oh, my gosh, these are the people teaching our kids how to think?
I Still Don’t Get It:
TCO: Jury’s still out on that one. Each side claims they’re the best (as does the Linux world).
*Okay, fair enough. I believe that, taken as a whole, the research falls in the favor of the Mac. But, for the sake of the argument, fine.*
iLife: Depends what you’re trying to teach. If it’s skills relevent to using a computer in corporate America, WinXP, IE, Office etc. are much more relevant.
*If it is a competent curriculum, they are *not* teaching specific skills. Thinking skills, problem solving, functioning as team, etc. If your technology program is teaching how to use Office then you don’t have competent tech program. But, as I said, even if that is what you want to do, Macs can do it just as well as Windows PCs now*
If it’s playing with photos, movies and music you want, then you can get apps for the PC for that too.
*Once you buy the apps equivalent to what you get with iLife, the Windows PC is absolutely more expensive than a Mac.*
Run Windows just as well:
Sure, but PCs are still cheaper. Yes perhaps the equivalently configured PC is closer to the same Mac but that ignores the fact that you can get 85% of the performance and 100% of the functionality for about half the price of the Mac. Lots of people, not just schools, are just fine with that compromise.
A Dell that pretty much matches the MacBook Pro is $1422 (compared to a $2148 MacBook once you upgrade the memory and add a modem to match the Dell), a Dell that matches the $1099 MacBook costs $839.
*School districts are not using Dell coupons. I work in school district. I have access to quotes from Dell. You can not buy a portable equivalent to a MacBook for 839. That is just not true. At least, again, not in my state.”
The entry level Dell notebook comes in at $499.
The cheapest Dell desktop with monitor costs $299.
*I do not believe that there is a district in America that allows their schools to buy systems of that kind. In my district, the Dell configured portable goes for 1100 without bluetooth or a Core Duo processor. The Dell desktop goes for 839 with a 15″ CRT display. You would have to show me actual quotes to schools to get me to believe those numbers.*
So you’re a school, what do you do. Buy $499 Dells or $1099 MacBooks? $299 Dells or $660 Mac Minis?
*Again, phony argument. School districts have to buy service plans and adhere to state specs. They can not buy either of the Dell systems you mention here.*
Also don’t forget to add $80 to the Mac price for the educational version of Windows.
*Our Windows licenses are 40 dollars. I don’t know where the 80 comes from.*
Your budget is fixed. You can have 30 Macs or 55 Dells. (or 30 Mac notebooks instead of 70 Dell ones) Which is best for your students? More PCs, or fewer Macs?
*Your numbers, again, are bogus. There is no way the cost differential breaks out that way. The difference would be much more like two or three more Dell desktops and the same number of portables. And in all of your numbers there is no mention of the better software Macs offer, the enhanced security Macs offer, reduced virus spyware, malware risks, etc.
Dells are not significantly less expensive than Macs when being sold in large numbers and offer a wildly inferior educational tool. Its just not close anymore. When you consider reliabiility, TCO, built-in software, the ability to run Windows, superior service and support (according to JD Powers customer surveys year after year), superior build quality (according to Consumer reports year after year, then there is just no competition.
Macs are absolutely better for education and its not even close now.*
Matthy your argument eloquently explains how when I was young Apple had a near lock on the educational marketplace, (of course IBM PCs hadn’t been invented then, so not much competition) and how since then it’s eroded significantly.
The fact is that most educators just don’t agree with your analysis.
“*School districts are not using Dell coupons. I work in school district. I have access to quotes from Dell. You can not buy a portable equivalent to a MacBook for 839. That is just not true. At least, again, not in my state.”
Then you’re being robbed. a retail customer can do that buying Quantity 1 (no special coupons). The thing to remember with Dells is that you turn a aound and price them a month later, the price drops significantly. If you have a few month old Dell price list, I’d beleive that $1100. If the price stays high for you while it drops for the rest of the world, you need better people negotiating your contracts.
“*Once you buy the apps equivalent to what you get with iLife, the Windows PC is absolutely more expensive than a Mac.*”
Or use the free alternatives, your choice.
“*Our Windows licenses are 40 dollars. I don’t know where the 80 comes from.*”
Again Quantity 1 retail pricing. It’s good to hear you’re not getting ripped off as much for that as the Dell.
“there is just no competition.”
Yet the no competition keeps winning, 80-90% of the time in schools. Strange definition of no competition. Perhaps no competition does not mean what you think it means.
I am a Mac geek at heart. But as the former computer teacher at a “financially unstable” private school, I’d like to correct some of the misconceptions that I’ve seen in this thread. This took place in mid-2005, before the Mactel era:
For a ten workstation computer lab, taking advantage of a “free flat-screen monitor” promotion from Dell on P4 towers saved the school about US$4,000 over eMac. Mac Mini would have been an even more expensive solution for the school because we needed new monitors, mice, and keyboards. I tried to convince TPTB of the “total cost of ownership argument,” but to no avail. Sales sell, as it were. This brings me to my second point. I was the “computer professional” at the school where I worked. Nevertheless, my advice to “go Mac” was essentially ignored. It was hard to convince TPTB at such a “financially unstable” school to spend an extra US$4,000 on Macs when the classrooms and office were already equipped Microsoft Windows PCs. There was also a rather vocal and influential parent who expressed concerns to TPTB that Macs would not allow her daughter, who had been diagnosed as learning disabled, to receive the appropriate accommodations.
While it is now technically possible for schools to purchase Macs and then install Windows on them, that is a financially daunting proposition for schools like the one where I used to work. In short, schools may be ignoring Macs because of financial problems and/or parents who insist on Windows computers. Schools that choose Dell over Apple are not always “in the pocket” of Dell and/or Microsoft.
re: “Your budget is fixed. You can have 30 Macs or 55 Dells. (or 30 Mac notebooks instead of 70 Dell ones) Which is best for your students? More PCs, or fewer Macs?”
30 Macs!
Jobs –
“Point is if any Corporation, after passing the articles thru it’s own BS filters actually beleived them, they’d be flocking to the Mac. And it’s not happening. What does that tell you?”
It tells me that corporations and “the market” aren’t all that smart. It also reminds me that the “experts” guiding the corporate decisions are all MS certified and virtually clueless about Macs.
I was in the studio offices of a major TV network doing a photo shoot and had to use their network to FTP images to the client. The difficulty involved in simply getting net access for my laptop was pathetic, and the two IT guys who hashed it out gazed upon my Powerbook like the apes in “2001” encountering the monolith as I established the connection and initiated FTP upload with just a few mouse clicks. These are sharp guys. I was amazed at the complexity of issues they wrestle with every day. But, they just don’t know jack outside their own little MS bubble.
“gazed upon my Powerbook like the apes in “2001” encountering the monolith as I established the connection and initiated FTP upload with just a few mouse clicks. These are sharp guys.”
If that amazed them, perhaps not as sharp as you think…
Dateline 1971: Man uses FTP to upload files.
30 years later: Man repeats same feat with Mac.
Wow, I’m stunned, blown away. you da man.
“30 Macs!”
Please Mr KenH, is it my turn with the Mac yet?
No Johnny, go sit in the corner and wait, you’ll get your turn real soon now.
“55 Dells!”
Please Mr KenH, is it my turn with the PC yet?
No Johnny, go sit in the corner and wait, you’ll get your turn real soon now, as soon as we re-install this patch and hope for the best and as soon as you cute little virus writers stop destroying every single machine with the gleeful abandon of pigs in s**t!!
Uh, Johnny? Please don’t cry…
Mr Dave, you’re fired. We’re going to have to get someone who knows his arse from mhis elbow to administer the PCs.
“Then you’re being robbed. a retail customer can do that buying Quantity 1 (no special coupons). The thing to remember with Dells is that you turn a aound and price them a month later, the price drops significantly. If you have a few month old Dell price list, I’d beleive that $1100. If the price stays high for you while it drops for the rest of the world, you need better people negotiating your contracts.”
Maybe, but I doubt it.
Do you work in a public school district? As I mentioned in an earlier post I do agree that Apple needs a cheaper entry point for their Intel machines and I’m sure they will have one reasonably soon.
School districts can’t buy the shoddiest desktop Dell offers. It just makes no sense to do that over the life of the product. A Celeron-based machine, or even a P4, is obsolete the day it hits a lab at this point.
As I’ve said in previous posts, if you or anyone can show me where a public school district is buying Dell desktops with reasonably modern specs (not CRT displays, not P4 processors) with an extended service agreement for 299 dollars then please post some official quotes showing that.
Because, if that is the case, then we are in fact getting robbed as you say.
I have the Dell premier page for my school district up *right now* and the imaged desktop for our district with a P4 and 17″ CRT is 839 dollars.
I wish I could post a screenshot here are the specs and price pasted directly from the Dell premiere page for our district:
Public Schools Imaged Desktop
Featured at
$839
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 630 with HT (3GHz, 2M, 800MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Professional, SP2, with Media
512MB DDR2 Non-ECC SDRAM, 533MHz, (2DIMM)
Dell 17 inch E773s (16.0 inch viewable) Conventional CRT
40GB SATA 3.0Gb/s
1.44MB 3.5 Inch Floppy Drive
Dell USB Keyboard, No Hot Keys
Dell USB 2-Button Optical Mouse with Scroll
Mouse Pad
Integrated AC97 Audio
Internal Dell Business Audio Speaker
48X32 CDRW/DVD Combo, with Cyberlink Power DVD™
RoHS Compliant Lead Free Chassis and Motherboard
3 Year Limited Warranty plus 3 Year NBD On-Site Service
The standard imaged notebook, with a Pentium M and a 14″ display, is 1169.
Specs for the notebook:
Standard Notebook
Featured at
$1,169
Intel® Pentium® M Processor 740 (1.73GHz) 14.1 XGA, Intel GMA 900
Genuine Windows® XP Professional, SP2, with media
512MB DDR2 533MHz SDRAM, 2 DIMMS
40GB Hard Drive, 9.5MM, 5400RPM
Internal 56K Modem for Dell Latitude D-Family Notebooks, Factory Install
24X CD-RW/DVD w/ Sonic Digital Media™ and Cyberlink PowerDVD™
6 Cell Primary Battery
I just think you are really uniformed about how much bait-and-switch Dell does to make their machines seem cheaper than they actually are.
Again, if you really have evidence that Dell is selling desktops and notebooks with modern specs, and three year support, at the prices you mention…*please* post it.
And if Dell is selling their computers at those prices to other districts, and charging my district double that price at least, then what the heck does that say about them as a company?
re;”Please Mr KenH, is it my turn with the PC yet?”
I substitute teach in a school system, (approximately 15,000 students, k-12) that is in a multi-year process of switching to Windows.
Over a 3 year period it is my observation that there is less and less usage of the computers by students as each individual school gets more Windows and fewer Macs.
So what would be the point of having more Windows machines that are used less?
They use them now for specific assignments usually involving “Word” processing, and less for more creative things which could be of benefit to their future employers.
” you need better people negotiating your contracts.”
“Maybe, but I doubt it.”
What’s to doubt. Retail Price $839, your Price $1100 for less. Look up the definition of Robbed…
“I just think you are really uniformed about how much bait-and-switch Dell does to make their machines seem cheaper than they actually are.”
No, I price the individual configs.
“Again, if you really have evidence that Dell is selling desktops and notebooks with modern specs, and three year support, at the prices you mention…*please* post it.”
3Yr warranty adds about $109 to the cheap $299 machine.
For a $400 saving, including service, many would take that offer…
Configure it to your spec with the 3 yr warranty, price goes up to $498. has 40GB bigger disk (sorry can’t have smaller) and 2.5GHz celeron instead of 3GHz P4. Save $30 if you ditch the floppy which lets face it is a dumb thing to have in a machine these days when you have a CD-RW drive.
So about a $300 saving over your bulk negotiated price for almost identically performing hardware.
If you’re having trouble believing me, Just go to the website and price them yourself.
On the notebook, start with the Dell E1405.
Core Solo because that’s what you have the equivalent performance of (Core Duo add $40) 60GB HDD, sorry can’t get smaller. CD-RW/DVD R/W drive sorry cant get just CDRW/DVD, wireless, bluetooth, All other specs the same or better. $719 base price or $971 with 3 yr warranty.
Yep, you’re being robbed…
As I said, Dell prices move fast. You’re being sold obsolete models. you NEED smarter purchasing people.
“Core Solo because that’s what you have the equivalent performance of (Core Duo add $40) 60GB HDD, sorry can’t get smaller. CD-RW/DVD R/W drive sorry cant get just CDRW/DVD, wireless, bluetooth, All other specs the same or better. $719 base price or $971 with 3 yr warranty.
Yep, you’re being robbed…
As I said, Dell prices move fast. You’re being sold obsolete models. you NEED smarter purchasing people.”
What I find interesting about all of your comments is that you seem to be finding fault with my school district (I’m just a teacher, btw, I have no clue who negotiates tech contracts) for paying too much.
Shouldn’t you be more concerned with Dell screwing a public school system? Isn’t that where the fault should rest? Are you comfortable with the type of business practices Dell seems to be using here?
Certainly, not to come to Dell’s defense but I remain fairly certain that the prices you are quoting are not available to school districts or companies buying large numbers of machines.
Much like when a grocery store has some ridiculously low price on sodas to get folks into the store, there is almost some kind of ‘limit two per customer catch.’
I’m sure its the same here.
But even if it isn’t, I’ll ask you again…are you confortable with Dell screwing a *public school district* on price like that? Do you even want to deal with a company with those sort of practices?
“less for more creative things which could be of benefit to their future employers.”
Frankly I’m happy if employees arn’t screwing around with their family photo albums, re-arranging their music collection, burning the holiday movies to DVD and mixing their band’s latest demo tape during work hours.
I’d rather they were using “real” productivity tools and earning “real” money, and be able to write a coherent email or Word document, put a spreadsheet or project plan together or use industrial strength development or creative tools.
“there is almost some kind of ‘limit two per customer catch. I’m sure its the same here.”
No, Mac users just can’t seem to get over the fact that Dell’s prices are so cheap. No magic, no tricks, no one per household. Go to the site, order as many as you’d like. Want a lot of machines, call Dell, the price is lower again.
“But even if it isn’t, I’ll ask you again…are you confortable with Dell screwing a *public school district* on price like that?”
The problem here is that even a customer who goes to the website will get “Screwed” in the same way if he chooses a different, older model Dell. I bet I can find a machine on the Dell site with close to the specs you mention for close to the price you mention.
I can tell you now you generally get more bang for your buck with each new series of Dell machines compared to it’s predecessor in the same market niche. There’s also always a price/performance sweet spot where spending more in that series doesn’t buy you much more. (How much more is 0.16GHz worth to the average word processing, web browsing, emailing user?)
Your purchasing people need to keep up with change, and get those newer machines on your price lists and jeep up with that moving sweet spot.
“Do you even want to deal with a company with those sort of practices?”
As I said, your district’s fault, not Dell’s. Although I’m sure it would be nice if DELL were more proactive and helped you save money.