“Most of [Baltimore County] school system’s computers are PCs running Microsoft Windows software, but not in the labs for the graphic and multimedia programs, until now. School system leaders say the move makes sense because it will make it easier to provide technical support and because graphic design software is available for both platforms,” Liz F. Kay reports for The Baltimore Sun. “…the Apple logo has given way to the waving Windows icon in Baltimore County schools’ graphic design and multimedia computer labs…”
Kay reports, “Still, some say future graphic artists should learn using Macs. ‘If people are specifically interested in a career in graphic arts, to not be exposed at all to the Mac is probably a disadvantage,’ said Kevin Keane, president of IAPHC, an international graphic professionals’ network.”
“The Baltimore County Public Schools . . . has embarked on a quality journey, a journey that will take us to our goal of becoming one of the premier school systems in the nation.” – quote from the website of Dr. Joe A. Hairston, Superintendent of Baltimore County Public Schools.
“Students and staff can share information efficiently if everyone uses compatible equipment. ‘All of this can happen only if we’re all on the same operating platform,’ said schools spokeswoman Kara Calder,” Kay reports.
“The debate over Macs versus Windows reaches levels of almost religious fervor, with bloggers and Web sites monitoring every statement made for or against either operating system. Most agree that graphics firms chiefly use Macs because their software was originally designed for that operating system,” Kay reports. “Until recently, up to 90 percent of most printing plants used Macs, said Keane, the president of the graphic professionals’ network. It’s now easier to work in either platform, but he estimated about three-quarters of businesses still use Macs.”
“Jill Schuchart, a student in Eastern Technical High School’s multimedia communications program, said she and other classmates were disappointed when they heard the news. They remembered how the PCs always crashed at the multimedia program at Parkville Middle,” Kay reports. “She recalls thinking, ‘Oh, great. It’s going to be like in eighth grade again, when we couldn’t work on our projects.'”
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: Obviously, Baltimore County Public Schools’ initial plan — to substitute lead paint chips for sliced turkey in school lunches — was deemed less effective than the above scheme in achieving their ultimate goal of impairing their children’s mental abilities. Someone ought to tell these geniuses in Maryland that Macs can run Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows natively, before they flush any more of the taxpayers’ money down the toilet. It’s not a religious argument; it’s an argument about providing the best you can for your students or shackling them to cheap, limited, mediocre Windows-only PCs due to budgetary concerns or, even worse, due to the type of plain old ignorance evidenced in Baltimore County.
What’s better for education, Mac or PC? Info: http://www.macvspc.info/
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Shouldn’t someone tell them of the Intel Mac’s ability to run Windows and OSX?
This will set the students back a grade…
TOO BAD. FIRST?
Won’t somebody please think of the children?
I thought schools were for children, not to fund technical support companies.
There are a lot of underlining fundamental buisness issues why this sort of thing is occuring.
A lot of it has to do that Apple was so mismanaged and ruled by a defeatist additude ever since Steve Jobs left Apple.
Steve Jobs has admitted long ago that Microsoft has won on the desktop.
What’s important for us Mac users is that Apple remains profitable and develops new products that sell well. There will always be a substancial percentage of people who depend upon reliability and style.
The Macintosh will tag along for the ride and we will get to enjoy the best computing platform for as long as possible. Provided we continue to support Apple.
Apple has still been in buisness for all these years, but PC companies who sell their garbage with virtually no profit will come and go. IBM, Compaq, Gateway and now it’s Dell’s turn to go.
Apple has a bright future, proof of that is with the iPod and new stuff they are dreaming up in Cupertino.
Steve is back and he’s got a plan that’s working!
Well, they deserve all the virus and tech support bills they get.
No sympathy here.
These kids need jobs in the real world, Training them on Windows makes perfect sense.
They will be Dells. Dell has been on a quest to destroy Apple in education by selling it’s cut-rate sh*t at a loss on the intial contract. After you hve made a huge investment in Windoze software they have you.
Let me guess, Dell’s planning to loose a dollar a unit and make it up in volume?
Nope, more likely the school’s looking at the fact that it can buy twice as many PCs for the same money, or the same number of PCs and spend the rest on something else.
“Students and staff can share information efficiently if everyone uses compatible equipment. ‘All of this can happen only if we’re all on the same operating platform,’ said schools spokeswoman Kara Calder,” Kay reports.
Hmm, I wonder what kind of information they have been unable to share up until now.
As a computer service company, we see this all the time.
Apple’s are the “red headed step children” no offense to Red Heads, or
Step Children to IT staffs.
Windows IT people do not like Apple. Why – 2 reasons
1. They are threatened because Macs need less support than Windows
and so they might be out of a job.
2. They are threatend because Macs do not work like Windows and they
feel inferior to their users.
Either way Windows Geeks can not get their minds around Macs.
My company has 2 camps to eliminate this problem. The Mac camp
of which I am one and the Windows camp which supplies 80% of our
service business. Viruses/Spyware are the number one problem for
our clients today followed closely by operating system patches.
Hopefully, with Intel Macs, Apple will pick up the naysayers like this
school.
Mike
http://www.tektaxi.com
….strange that education officials are making a hugely stupid mistake. they’ll only f**k themselves over in the long run
Jobs,
If you want to use that failed argument — platforms change too rapidly to try to teach specifics, you should teach concepts on as wide a range of platforms possible — then Macs are used in 75+% of graphics-related businesses. So, training them on Windows makes absolutely no sense.
Teach concepts, not specifics: if you taught a 7th grader “Windows” a dozen years ago, it’d be meaningless. Nobody uses Windows 3.1 anymore.
Students who know Macs are the people I hire because they understand computing, not just Windows.
They also tend to be more creative thinkers.
Windows-only people are generally close-minded, rigid, and cannot react to change as readily as those who use Macs, I’ve found. It’s a standard question I use to weed out prospective employees.
MDN MW: “door” – If all you know is Windows, don’t let the “door” hit your ass on the way out.
There quality journey is in for a major crash! In a month or two of working with there new PC’s there going to find out the ugly truth. Viruses, spyware, trojans are going to take there journey down a dark miserable path to non-functionality of there systems which will be in the I.T.’s hands more than the students hands.
M.X.N.T.4.1: I thought schools were for children, not to fund technical support companies.
Not even close. Here’s an article that explains it better than I can:
Education Not For The Kids
What did you expect? These public school administrators have destroyed all other aspects of our children’s education, so why should they not pick the biggest POS for their computer labs? They are just being consistent.
“Shouldn’t someone tell them of the Intel Mac’s ability to run Windows and OSX?”
The point is they want everyone to run Windows. It would defeat the purpose to have people dual booting. And don’t tell me you’re going to convince them to pay another $50-$80 per system to buy Parallels.
Bullseye mike. IT people who wear M$ blinders are no more than a drag on society.
I teach (among other things) computer lab for 3rd graders.
If we are still locked into Office 15 years from now when these kids are entering the workplace, I will shoot myself in the face with a bazooka.
Technology curriculum, if it done right, is platform independent. Unless the state adoption comittees are getting kickbacks.
Teaching PowerPoint to eight-year olds!! Gack!!!
This isn’t just limited to Baltimore.
In Valparaiso, Indiana (where I went to high school), they plan on replacing the old G3 iMacs in the Graphic Design lab aty the high school with new Dells this summer, as Dell continues to bribe the district with stuff like a free projector or plasma TV when they buy OptiPlex and Latitude systems by the hundreds.
Granted, they did buy one Core Duo iMac for a photo studio, but basically, they’ve just eliminated almost every remaining Mac in the district in one quick swoop.
MDN MW: “self”; as in the self-destruction of children’s minds when using Windows
Dr. Hairston has clearly been misinformed. Sadly, even people with advanced degrees are sometimes intimdated or unclear about computers and how they fit into both educational and business settings. If Dr. Hairston had really done his research he would have found that Macs last longer, can run more software, require less technical support, and are generally easier to use, especially for novices. In short they are as close to the perfect educational tool yet devised. This shortsighted decision will not serve either the people of Baltimore or their children well. I want to see the test scores and achievement rankings one year from now. My guess is that this decision will have exactly the opposite effect from what was intended.
A really astounding decision and one that they will look back on…and rue.
Pity the missed opportunity for the kids.
Yet another paid off education employee looking to waste the schools funds on tech support.
VERY bad decision…
The illiterate children at your school will be forever grateful in fscking up their education.
I just want to say:
That is the end-all of all Mac vs. PC websites.
The link provided by MDN is super.
I wish I found it earlier – it is a wealth of info!
if someone comes to me and says they have never worked on a mac, unless they have absolutely fantastic talent, I will not hire them.
I find people who use macs far more creative, and more lateral in their thinking than people that use pcs.
if people are happy using windows, i’d show them the door.
this is a tradgedy for all the students that are going to have to run windows, i feel sorry for them, because its not the students fault, but theyre the ones who are going to pay.
people who only look at the bottom line, never see the big picture.
Yes, these kids shouldn’t be given a false hope of future success. They need to be on Windows.
Ingteresting Employer, the candidates I’ve hired for graphic design jobs have worked just as well with PC versions of the same software as Mac ones.
You’re right, it doesn’t matter any more whether you run Photoshop on a PC or a Mac so the school’s better off making the best use of it’s money.
i heart macdude:
“I will shoot myself in the face with a bazooka.”
If the thought of using Microsoft Office makes you mentally unstable and suicidal, I’d suggest you either get counselling, or at the very least stay away from those kids. They don’t need to be taught by wackos.
The article contains what has to be some of the sloppiest excuses for going to Windows. It appears to me that prestige is the primary reason for pressing in that direction. I notice that they limited their tattered arguments to graphics professionals. They left out small business people, scientists, engineers, and architects among others.
The people that make this decision should be held accountable for the ramifications of their decision – the word is “responsibility”. How about docking each individual that had a hand in the decision a day’s pay each time the computer system goes down. If that were the case, I suspect they would take greater care in their decisions.
Jobs,
I develop professional AppleScript-based solutions for businesses including Adobe Systems, Apple Computer, NASA, PC World, and TV Guide.
Trust me, it’s vastly more than a “Photoshop on Windows is the same as on a Mac” situation.
Windows PCs compare very poorly to Apple Mac OS X machines in publishing and other arenas, too.
http://www.automatedworkflows.com/
I am an Art Director in Baltimore, MD. We run a Mac ONLY design department, about 50 Macs. Whether the artist is proficient on the software on PC or Mac doesn’t help.
If I have two candidates with the same software knowledge, but one knows Mac and the other is on PC, then I am going to hire the one with the Mac knowledge.
Less time it take for a transition into the workflow.
Powermacs with intelchips available before autumn? if not then i sure as hell wouldn’t buy iMacs to be used for heavy graphics work, they simply don’t have the horsepower. Powermacs with intel would be sweeeeee though.
i attended baltimore county schools. in 2003 they started replacing all the old all in one macs that came with system 7 but were upgraded with OS9 with dells. i came back to my high school in 2005, a year after i graduated and it was a completely different set of computers in the library that the macs were originally replaced with. in the sga we wanted to get a mac and we couldnt because the county said all they will support is dells and the only place after the graphics labs that had macs (but apparently wont for much longer) was the biotech lab that had 6 bondi imacs on os 9
“”Still, some say future graphic artists should learn using Macs. ‘If people are specifically interested in a career in graphic arts, to not be exposed at all to the Mac is probably a disadvantage,'”
I think it should be, those who want to learn, shoudl avoid Windows, since you’ll spend more time troubleshooting than teaching.
This reeks of some PC centric IT department heads looking to justify their job titles.
ooh and hariston is just a bureaucrat. he is one of the worst people to lead an education system. i and any of the students that know anything detest him
1997 is calling for these sheeple.
“The Baltimore County Public Schools . . . has embarked on a quality journey, a journey that will take us to our goal of becoming one of the premier school systems in the nation.” – quote from the website of Dr. Joe A. Hairston.
And their answer is Windows? Bwa ha ha ha.
Hey, let us all remember. In our schools today, its not about quality of education or even what works, Its about slashing a nickel so the head guy can get a big bonus.
AFter all, next year he will be in another school district so why should he worry about what really works? 🙁
Actually, having worked with teachers and admin people in several school systems, I can say that you WOULD NOT BELIEVE the amount of politics that goes on and it has so very little to do with our kids and more about promotions.
So sad.
Norm
Actually this is GREAT news for kids from other locales. Now they have fewer kids to compete with in the job market. Rock on, Baltimore!
Translated this article merely states:
We done got’em real cheap. Let the students whine and complain…at least the little dorks get a puter to work on…..
Am I right or am I right?
Anyone who supports this decision is an idiot.
I don’t mean to be rude but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The dirty little secret in education is that Dell workstations are not significantly cheaper than Mac workstations.
School districts can not go out and buy the 499 dollar celeron-based Dell. They have to abide by state standards and have significant support plans in place from the vendor (at least in my state). The bottom line is that a Dell desktop costs us about 200 less than a much better equipped iMac and about 150 *more* than a similarly equipped eMac.
Right now, the MacBook blows the Dell portable offerings out of the water on price/performance
Granted, I would not buy eMacs at this time. Apple does need a cheaper education alternative that runs Intel. I’m sure that that is forthcoming.
A Mac has lower TCO
A Mac can be set to one-button mouse operation (vital for students in younger grades)
A Mac has an all-in-one option much better suited to student labs
A Mac has a much, much better built in suite of software
A Mac is more secure
(for whatever reason. people sometimes say to me “Your Mac is only secure because fewer people use it” To which I respond, “So?!” If there is a road that has far less traffic than the road you usually use and still gets you there in the same time are you going to stay on the busy road because people *might* start using the new road at some undetermined point in the future? Because it *might* get as busy as the road you use now at some point? The ‘security through obscurity’ is the one of the dumbest arguments of all time. If its more secure who gives a rat’s behind *why*.)
A Mac is much less prone to student tampering with spyware, malware, etc.
And, most importantly maybe, for around the same price, a Mac can easily offer *both* Windows funtionality *and* the benefits of OS X. School districts can get the necessary Windows licenses for 40 bucks per seat (less in many cases). Then, with a Mac, they have a fast Windows box, a fast OS X box, the best education/consumer suite of creative apps on the market, and the ability to switch between OSes at will to avoid virus attacks on Windows!
It really, truly is a no-brainer. School districts who swtiched to Windows six or seven years ago…you could understand it. Districts who switch now are run by admins who are either on the take from Dell (or whoever), or are alarmingly uninformed in regard to technology.
I’m not sure which is worse.
“I will shoot myself in the face with a bazooka.”
If the thought of using Microsoft Office makes you mentally unstable and suicidal, I’d suggest you either get counselling, or at the very least stay away from those kids. They don’t need to be taught by wackos.
I was being ironical…Lighten up, dude.
“WOULD NOT BELIEVE the amount of politics that goes on and it has so very little to do with our kids and more about promotions…”
Amen to that!
“Districts who switch now are run by admins who are either on the take from Dell (or whoever), or are alarmingly uninformed in regard to technology.
I’m not sure which is worse.”
Technology scares the crap out of admin types. The IT staff in any given district might as well be a black box. I can’t wait to see what happens when the *thousands* of optiplexes we have now start to crap out in another year or two…
I’ve read a couple of times (can’t remember where, sorry) that the education sales staff and sales staff at Apple in general are not respected by Steve Jobs. If this is true i think it’s a horrible thing as Apple products don’t necessarily sell themselves. If they could, then staff Apple stores only at the payment counter and have a security guard at the entrance.
I think Apple needs a strong sales staff to build relationships and contacts as it’s a customer service issue as well. A personal touch to answer a question or to find out more about the customer’s needs without them having to dig through lots of info themselves can be the simple thing that makes the sale.
So if you’re an Apple Computer Inc. shareholder and the company doesn’t respect sales staff, please write to investor relations with some well thought out comments.
“Someone ought to tell these geniuses in Maryland that Macs can run Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows natively”
That someone should really be Apple. Sure, Apple does have some ads, but they really are not doing that great of a job of educating the people on the benefits of a Mac.
Premier school districts? You just kicked out your best tools for teaching students.
The one thing that annoys me is the stereotype that Macs are only good for graphic design. I know a lot of people who do use the Mac for graphic design, but I also know a lot of people who use the Mac for various other reasons, some as simple as checking email and iChatting. The Mac appeals to anyone, regardless of profession. I wish haters would stop giving lame ass excuses to why one should not purchase or consider purchasing a Mac. It is really getting old, and the arguments are disgusting packs of lies.
Then again, nobody said getting out of the Dark Ages of Computing would be easy.
Heads far up their asses!!!
well I know Baltimore has quite a few poor areas. Usually when it comes to education in poorer districts, the administration spends money unwisely, simply considering the cost of the technology rather than the TCO – total cost of ownership. the result ? under-educated students who provide less value to businesses, society, and themselves. utilizing the mac, with its trio of OSes, may have been more costly, but would have been an exponentially more effective decision contributing greater benefits to the students and community.
Jobs:
“Nope, more likely the school’s looking at the fact that it can buy twice as many PCs for the same money, or the same number of PCs and spend the rest on something else.”
Windows, cheap thru the door… expensive forever more.
Yes, spend the so-called savings on extra technical support and building the IT empire.
Or, will it go to bonuses to execs (ie, Hairston) who have hidden the true extra expenses (TCO)? You can be sure the higher budgets for extra support will be buried or explained away.
As far as I’ve seen, all TCO/ROI studies to date have favoured the Mac over Windows yet “cost” and the lame “everyone uses Windows” excuses often carry the day.
Pity the children within such an uninformed system.
Perhaps it’s the educators that need to be educated???
…
Job security for IT.
“Dear IT Dept.
I’m paying you to tell me what to do. I do what you say to do. Because of what you told me to do I pay you more money and all of the IT employees that it takes to maintain my MS environment. I’m an idiot.
Signed your employer -Baltimore County Public School of de-Education.”
Wouldn’t surprise me if the Macs they are replacing are not even running OS X.
Schools are notorious for this sort of thing. I remember in high school (this would have been 1998), getting sat down in the school’s “typing lab” which was a bunch of Mac LCs running System 6 and MultiFinder!
And then all the students are like, “man, Macs suck!” Gee, what a surprise that Windows XP seems much better. It offers all kinds of superior features, like colored windows.
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“all TCO/ROI studies to date have favoured the Mac over Windows”
Actually the ones funded by Apple or done by somone with a pro Apple axe to grind favor the Mac.
Strangely enough the ones funded by Microsoft or with a pro Microsoft axe to grind favor the PC.
Clearly the market believes that the PC is the better choice, if they really believed that Mac had a lower cost of ownership for the same job done they’d be stampeding towards the platform not moving away from it.
Corporations ARE NOT dumb or Mac Ignorant or so short sighted that they just look at a machine’s purchase price. They’re always looking for how to reduce costs, and if Apple truly offered that, Apple wouldn’t be able to build and sell machines fast enough.
Jobs:
How old are you? Two? How stupid can you be? The reason why Cost of Ownership is ignored is because people are very fscking short sighted. If I want to impress my boss right now (save giving him a blowjob) then I must do some short sighted/faux-pro-active deed. It’s exactly the way politics runs… and pretty much 95% of everything else. Look at the mess we’re in! The safe-easy thing to do (if you don’t think about the consequence) is to buy cheap, buy what the majority “approves” of and hope you get a promotion before someone figures out that you’ve really done nothing… or in this case much less than nothing.
MW: “group”. as in “herd mentality”. as in “mob rules”… as in “idiots all around”
Being a graphics designer for more than 10 years, I do not agree with the Baltimore School systems choice at all. Not only are Macs better suited for the work graphically, but also technically.
The agency for which I work would lose clients left-and-right if we had to deal with the problems that Windows PCs have – constant freezing of apps regardless of the amount of scratch disk space and RAM – which we have never had with Macs.
Most graphics profs and teachers haven’t been in the business in years and aren’t even up-to-date with the software. I know of technical schools and colleges in my area which are still teaching Quark V. 5, PageMaker, and Photoshop 7!!!!!! Most of the industry is using the Creative Suite and CS2 – on Macs, not PCs.
And employer, what’s the first thing I look for in hiring a graphic designer?
Can he use a Mac? No, not that.
Can he use a PC? No, not that.
I look at their Work! I look to see if they have actual talent. Talented people can produce good results on either platform.
Application skills on the PC are easily transferred to the Mac and vice versa. But you can’t just move a talentless person from a PC to a Mac or vice versa and expect great things.
So good luck Employer with your strange “test”.
“”all TCO/ROI studies to date have favoured the Mac over Windows”
Actually the ones funded by Apple or done by somone with a pro Apple axe to grind favor the Mac.
Strangely enough the ones funded by Microsoft or with a pro Microsoft axe to grind favor the PC.”
LMAO!!!! Do you read ANY of the tons of articles? These TCO studies are done over and over again by many consultants of many biases… And the MAC, again and again and again, comes out on top, damn close to 100% of the time, because TIME IS MONEY. And the Windows platform, especially when HUMANS (not Geeks) are involved, simply takes MORE time to mess with – more things can and DO go wrong. That takes time to fix. Which costs money.
Are you foolish enough to think BIAS is the cause?
Here’s one more thing to chew on, if ya got the teeth for it – PCs typically install up to TWICE as many files per program than the Macintosh… That’s way more files to keep track of… and way more files to potentially become corrrupt or lost…
DO THE MATH.
I still haven’t heard a reasoned reply to these facts:
-Dell workstations are not much cheaper (if any) than iMacs for school districts because these districts (unless they are horribly corrupt) can’t just go out and buy the cheapest box Dell sells. They have to meet state standards and buy vendor support agreements.
-Macs TCO *is* cheaper (do some research. look at any numbers not funded by MS or some MS certification group)
-Macs come with iLife 06…a better suite of integrated creative content edu level apps can’t be found on a Windows box *at any price.*
-Macs (for now iMacs and soon, I’m sure, a cheaper edu. targeted desktop) can run Windows *just as well* as any HP or Dell box.
Read that last part again, those of you who are advocating for Windows. *Mac run Windows just as well as a WIndows OEM box!*
What on earth is the justification for replacing Macs with Windows boxes given those facts? I’m not trying to troll…I would *really* like to know what reasons Windows advocates are putting out there.
“That’s way more files to keep track of”
Yes, modern computers have lots of problems keeping track of files, turn you back and those sneaky files just vanish!
You can’t be serious putting this theory forward, can you? I mean can you? Well you did, perhaps you’re joking like the bazooka suicide guy. It’s just such a dumb idea.
“again and again and again, comes out on top, damn close to 100% of the time”
Show some evidence that even remotely sustains that position.
“Are you foolish enough to think BIAS is the cause?”
Are you foolish enough to beleive vendor sponsored research? Clearly yes.
“MAC, again and again and again, comes out on top, “
Point is if any Corporation, after passing the articles thru it’s own BS filters actually beleived them, they’d be flocking to the Mac. And it’s not happening.
What does that tell you?
It should tell you that most people don’t agree with your analysis.
Jobs;
“”all TCO/ROI studies to date have favoured the Mac over Windows”
Actually the ones funded by Apple or done by somone with a pro Apple axe to grind favor the Mac.”
Nice try but you’re out to lunch with that claim.
As mentioned by a Corporate Mentality, it’s been independent studies (Gartner, Aussie police service, Japanese bank (?), etc) that have favoured Macs.
“Strangely enough the ones funded by Microsoft or with a pro Microsoft axe to grind favor the PC.”
Not strange at all since it’s only MS-sponsored studies that go Windows way.
I Still Don’t Get It:
TCO: Jury’s still out on that one. Each side claims they’re the best (as does the Linux world).
iLife: Depends what you’re trying to teach. If it’s skills relevent to using a computer in corporate America, WinXP, IE, Office etc. are much more relevant.
If it’s playing with photos, movies and music you want, then you can get apps for the PC for that too.
Run Windows just as well:
Sure, but PCs are still cheaper. Yes perhaps the equivalently configured PC is closer to the same Mac but that ignores the fact that you can get 85% of the performance and 100% of the functionality for about half the price of the Mac. Lots of people, not just schools, are just fine with that compromise.
A Dell that pretty much matches the MacBook Pro is $1422 (compared to a $2148 MacBook once you upgrade the memory and add a modem to match the Dell), a Dell that matches the $1099 MacBook costs $839.
The entry level Dell notebook comes in at $499.
The cheapest Dell desktop with monitor costs $299.
The cheapest mac desktop costs $660 or so with a 3rd party 17″ monitor.
All prices are Quantity 1, retail.
So you’re a school, what do you do. Buy $499 Dells or $1099 MacBooks? $299 Dells or $660 Mac Minis?
Also don’t forget to add $80 to the Mac price for the educational version of Windows.
Your budget is fixed. You can have 30 Macs or 55 Dells. (or 30 Mac notebooks instead of 70 Dell ones) Which is best for your students? More PCs, or fewer Macs?
independent studies (Gartner, Aussie police service, Japanese bank (?), etc
lets quote from 2002 and one of Gartner’s studies:
“Last week, Apple Australia publicized a finding by research firm Gartner that found Macs are 36 percent cheaper to own and maintain than their Windows/Intel counterparts, based on a study carried out with Melbourne University.
Gartner now has restated its findings, claiming that the original data referred to a specific scenario and that the stated results do not represent the firm’s overall position on Mac total cost of ownership (TCO).
Apple Apologizes…
“
“If TCO is the only measure, than the lowest TCO we have seen is for a yellow pad and a pencil, with an equally lower ROI as well,” the department said.
“
“They don’t occur that often but other TCO/ROI studies (in Macs favour) have come from Gartner (pay to access), an Australian police service (about 1-1.5 years back)”
Source MacCanuck posting on ZDNet
Touche
Oh, my gosh, these are the people teaching our kids how to think?
I Still Don’t Get It:
TCO: Jury’s still out on that one. Each side claims they’re the best (as does the Linux world).
*Okay, fair enough. I believe that, taken as a whole, the research falls in the favor of the Mac. But, for the sake of the argument, fine.*
iLife: Depends what you’re trying to teach. If it’s skills relevent to using a computer in corporate America, WinXP, IE, Office etc. are much more relevant.
*If it is a competent curriculum, they are *not* teaching specific skills. Thinking skills, problem solving, functioning as team, etc. If your technology program is teaching how to use Office then you don’t have competent tech program. But, as I said, even if that is what you want to do, Macs can do it just as well as Windows PCs now*
If it’s playing with photos, movies and music you want, then you can get apps for the PC for that too.
*Once you buy the apps equivalent to what you get with iLife, the Windows PC is absolutely more expensive than a Mac.*
Run Windows just as well:
Sure, but PCs are still cheaper. Yes perhaps the equivalently configured PC is closer to the same Mac but that ignores the fact that you can get 85% of the performance and 100% of the functionality for about half the price of the Mac. Lots of people, not just schools, are just fine with that compromise.
A Dell that pretty much matches the MacBook Pro is $1422 (compared to a $2148 MacBook once you upgrade the memory and add a modem to match the Dell), a Dell that matches the $1099 MacBook costs $839.
*School districts are not using Dell coupons. I work in school district. I have access to quotes from Dell. You can not buy a portable equivalent to a MacBook for 839. That is just not true. At least, again, not in my state.”
The entry level Dell notebook comes in at $499.
The cheapest Dell desktop with monitor costs $299.
*I do not believe that there is a district in America that allows their schools to buy systems of that kind. In my district, the Dell configured portable goes for 1100 without bluetooth or a Core Duo processor. The Dell desktop goes for 839 with a 15″ CRT display. You would have to show me actual quotes to schools to get me to believe those numbers.*
So you’re a school, what do you do. Buy $499 Dells or $1099 MacBooks? $299 Dells or $660 Mac Minis?
*Again, phony argument. School districts have to buy service plans and adhere to state specs. They can not buy either of the Dell systems you mention here.*
Also don’t forget to add $80 to the Mac price for the educational version of Windows.
*Our Windows licenses are 40 dollars. I don’t know where the 80 comes from.*
Your budget is fixed. You can have 30 Macs or 55 Dells. (or 30 Mac notebooks instead of 70 Dell ones) Which is best for your students? More PCs, or fewer Macs?
*Your numbers, again, are bogus. There is no way the cost differential breaks out that way. The difference would be much more like two or three more Dell desktops and the same number of portables. And in all of your numbers there is no mention of the better software Macs offer, the enhanced security Macs offer, reduced virus spyware, malware risks, etc.
Dells are not significantly less expensive than Macs when being sold in large numbers and offer a wildly inferior educational tool. Its just not close anymore. When you consider reliabiility, TCO, built-in software, the ability to run Windows, superior service and support (according to JD Powers customer surveys year after year), superior build quality (according to Consumer reports year after year, then there is just no competition.
Macs are absolutely better for education and its not even close now.*
Matthy your argument eloquently explains how when I was young Apple had a near lock on the educational marketplace, (of course IBM PCs hadn’t been invented then, so not much competition) and how since then it’s eroded significantly.
The fact is that most educators just don’t agree with your analysis.
“*School districts are not using Dell coupons. I work in school district. I have access to quotes from Dell. You can not buy a portable equivalent to a MacBook for 839. That is just not true. At least, again, not in my state.”
Then you’re being robbed. a retail customer can do that buying Quantity 1 (no special coupons). The thing to remember with Dells is that you turn a aound and price them a month later, the price drops significantly. If you have a few month old Dell price list, I’d beleive that $1100. If the price stays high for you while it drops for the rest of the world, you need better people negotiating your contracts.
“*Once you buy the apps equivalent to what you get with iLife, the Windows PC is absolutely more expensive than a Mac.*”
Or use the free alternatives, your choice.
“*Our Windows licenses are 40 dollars. I don’t know where the 80 comes from.*”
Again Quantity 1 retail pricing. It’s good to hear you’re not getting ripped off as much for that as the Dell.
“there is just no competition.”
Yet the no competition keeps winning, 80-90% of the time in schools. Strange definition of no competition. Perhaps no competition does not mean what you think it means.
I am a Mac geek at heart. But as the former computer teacher at a “financially unstable” private school, I’d like to correct some of the misconceptions that I’ve seen in this thread. This took place in mid-2005, before the Mactel era:
For a ten workstation computer lab, taking advantage of a “free flat-screen monitor” promotion from Dell on P4 towers saved the school about US$4,000 over eMac. Mac Mini would have been an even more expensive solution for the school because we needed new monitors, mice, and keyboards. I tried to convince TPTB of the “total cost of ownership argument,” but to no avail. Sales sell, as it were. This brings me to my second point. I was the “computer professional” at the school where I worked. Nevertheless, my advice to “go Mac” was essentially ignored. It was hard to convince TPTB at such a “financially unstable” school to spend an extra US$4,000 on Macs when the classrooms and office were already equipped Microsoft Windows PCs. There was also a rather vocal and influential parent who expressed concerns to TPTB that Macs would not allow her daughter, who had been diagnosed as learning disabled, to receive the appropriate accommodations.
While it is now technically possible for schools to purchase Macs and then install Windows on them, that is a financially daunting proposition for schools like the one where I used to work. In short, schools may be ignoring Macs because of financial problems and/or parents who insist on Windows computers. Schools that choose Dell over Apple are not always “in the pocket” of Dell and/or Microsoft.
re: “Your budget is fixed. You can have 30 Macs or 55 Dells. (or 30 Mac notebooks instead of 70 Dell ones) Which is best for your students? More PCs, or fewer Macs?”
30 Macs!
Jobs –
“Point is if any Corporation, after passing the articles thru it’s own BS filters actually beleived them, they’d be flocking to the Mac. And it’s not happening. What does that tell you?”
It tells me that corporations and “the market” aren’t all that smart. It also reminds me that the “experts” guiding the corporate decisions are all MS certified and virtually clueless about Macs.
I was in the studio offices of a major TV network doing a photo shoot and had to use their network to FTP images to the client. The difficulty involved in simply getting net access for my laptop was pathetic, and the two IT guys who hashed it out gazed upon my Powerbook like the apes in “2001” encountering the monolith as I established the connection and initiated FTP upload with just a few mouse clicks. These are sharp guys. I was amazed at the complexity of issues they wrestle with every day. But, they just don’t know jack outside their own little MS bubble.
“gazed upon my Powerbook like the apes in “2001” encountering the monolith as I established the connection and initiated FTP upload with just a few mouse clicks. These are sharp guys.”
If that amazed them, perhaps not as sharp as you think…
Dateline 1971: Man uses FTP to upload files.
30 years later: Man repeats same feat with Mac.
Wow, I’m stunned, blown away. you da man.
“30 Macs!”
Please Mr KenH, is it my turn with the Mac yet?
No Johnny, go sit in the corner and wait, you’ll get your turn real soon now.
“55 Dells!”
Please Mr KenH, is it my turn with the PC yet?
No Johnny, go sit in the corner and wait, you’ll get your turn real soon now, as soon as we re-install this patch and hope for the best and as soon as you cute little virus writers stop destroying every single machine with the gleeful abandon of pigs in s**t!!
Uh, Johnny? Please don’t cry…
Mr Dave, you’re fired. We’re going to have to get someone who knows his arse from mhis elbow to administer the PCs.
“Then you’re being robbed. a retail customer can do that buying Quantity 1 (no special coupons). The thing to remember with Dells is that you turn a aound and price them a month later, the price drops significantly. If you have a few month old Dell price list, I’d beleive that $1100. If the price stays high for you while it drops for the rest of the world, you need better people negotiating your contracts.”
Maybe, but I doubt it.
Do you work in a public school district? As I mentioned in an earlier post I do agree that Apple needs a cheaper entry point for their Intel machines and I’m sure they will have one reasonably soon.
School districts can’t buy the shoddiest desktop Dell offers. It just makes no sense to do that over the life of the product. A Celeron-based machine, or even a P4, is obsolete the day it hits a lab at this point.
As I’ve said in previous posts, if you or anyone can show me where a public school district is buying Dell desktops with reasonably modern specs (not CRT displays, not P4 processors) with an extended service agreement for 299 dollars then please post some official quotes showing that.
Because, if that is the case, then we are in fact getting robbed as you say.
I have the Dell premier page for my school district up *right now* and the imaged desktop for our district with a P4 and 17″ CRT is 839 dollars.
I wish I could post a screenshot here are the specs and price pasted directly from the Dell premiere page for our district:
Public Schools Imaged Desktop
Featured at
$839
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 630 with HT (3GHz, 2M, 800MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Professional, SP2, with Media
512MB DDR2 Non-ECC SDRAM, 533MHz, (2DIMM)
Dell 17 inch E773s (16.0 inch viewable) Conventional CRT
40GB SATA 3.0Gb/s
1.44MB 3.5 Inch Floppy Drive
Dell USB Keyboard, No Hot Keys
Dell USB 2-Button Optical Mouse with Scroll
Mouse Pad
Integrated AC97 Audio
Internal Dell Business Audio Speaker
48X32 CDRW/DVD Combo, with Cyberlink Power DVD™
RoHS Compliant Lead Free Chassis and Motherboard
3 Year Limited Warranty plus 3 Year NBD On-Site Service
The standard imaged notebook, with a Pentium M and a 14″ display, is 1169.
Specs for the notebook:
Standard Notebook
Featured at
$1,169
Intel® Pentium® M Processor 740 (1.73GHz) 14.1 XGA, Intel GMA 900
Genuine Windows® XP Professional, SP2, with media
512MB DDR2 533MHz SDRAM, 2 DIMMS
40GB Hard Drive, 9.5MM, 5400RPM
Internal 56K Modem for Dell Latitude D-Family Notebooks, Factory Install
24X CD-RW/DVD w/ Sonic Digital Media™ and Cyberlink PowerDVD™
6 Cell Primary Battery
I just think you are really uniformed about how much bait-and-switch Dell does to make their machines seem cheaper than they actually are.
Again, if you really have evidence that Dell is selling desktops and notebooks with modern specs, and three year support, at the prices you mention…*please* post it.
And if Dell is selling their computers at those prices to other districts, and charging my district double that price at least, then what the heck does that say about them as a company?
re;”Please Mr KenH, is it my turn with the PC yet?”
I substitute teach in a school system, (approximately 15,000 students, k-12) that is in a multi-year process of switching to Windows.
Over a 3 year period it is my observation that there is less and less usage of the computers by students as each individual school gets more Windows and fewer Macs.
So what would be the point of having more Windows machines that are used less?
They use them now for specific assignments usually involving “Word” processing, and less for more creative things which could be of benefit to their future employers.
” you need better people negotiating your contracts.”
“Maybe, but I doubt it.”
What’s to doubt. Retail Price $839, your Price $1100 for less. Look up the definition of Robbed…
“I just think you are really uniformed about how much bait-and-switch Dell does to make their machines seem cheaper than they actually are.”
No, I price the individual configs.
“Again, if you really have evidence that Dell is selling desktops and notebooks with modern specs, and three year support, at the prices you mention…*please* post it.”
3Yr warranty adds about $109 to the cheap $299 machine.
For a $400 saving, including service, many would take that offer…
Configure it to your spec with the 3 yr warranty, price goes up to $498. has 40GB bigger disk (sorry can’t have smaller) and 2.5GHz celeron instead of 3GHz P4. Save $30 if you ditch the floppy which lets face it is a dumb thing to have in a machine these days when you have a CD-RW drive.
So about a $300 saving over your bulk negotiated price for almost identically performing hardware.
If you’re having trouble believing me, Just go to the website and price them yourself.
On the notebook, start with the Dell E1405.
Core Solo because that’s what you have the equivalent performance of (Core Duo add $40) 60GB HDD, sorry can’t get smaller. CD-RW/DVD R/W drive sorry cant get just CDRW/DVD, wireless, bluetooth, All other specs the same or better. $719 base price or $971 with 3 yr warranty.
Yep, you’re being robbed…
As I said, Dell prices move fast. You’re being sold obsolete models. you NEED smarter purchasing people.
“Core Solo because that’s what you have the equivalent performance of (Core Duo add $40) 60GB HDD, sorry can’t get smaller. CD-RW/DVD R/W drive sorry cant get just CDRW/DVD, wireless, bluetooth, All other specs the same or better. $719 base price or $971 with 3 yr warranty.
Yep, you’re being robbed…
As I said, Dell prices move fast. You’re being sold obsolete models. you NEED smarter purchasing people.”
What I find interesting about all of your comments is that you seem to be finding fault with my school district (I’m just a teacher, btw, I have no clue who negotiates tech contracts) for paying too much.
Shouldn’t you be more concerned with Dell screwing a public school system? Isn’t that where the fault should rest? Are you comfortable with the type of business practices Dell seems to be using here?
Certainly, not to come to Dell’s defense but I remain fairly certain that the prices you are quoting are not available to school districts or companies buying large numbers of machines.
Much like when a grocery store has some ridiculously low price on sodas to get folks into the store, there is almost some kind of ‘limit two per customer catch.’
I’m sure its the same here.
But even if it isn’t, I’ll ask you again…are you confortable with Dell screwing a *public school district* on price like that? Do you even want to deal with a company with those sort of practices?
“less for more creative things which could be of benefit to their future employers.”
Frankly I’m happy if employees arn’t screwing around with their family photo albums, re-arranging their music collection, burning the holiday movies to DVD and mixing their band’s latest demo tape during work hours.
I’d rather they were using “real” productivity tools and earning “real” money, and be able to write a coherent email or Word document, put a spreadsheet or project plan together or use industrial strength development or creative tools.
“there is almost some kind of ‘limit two per customer catch. I’m sure its the same here.”
No, Mac users just can’t seem to get over the fact that Dell’s prices are so cheap. No magic, no tricks, no one per household. Go to the site, order as many as you’d like. Want a lot of machines, call Dell, the price is lower again.
“But even if it isn’t, I’ll ask you again…are you confortable with Dell screwing a *public school district* on price like that?”
The problem here is that even a customer who goes to the website will get “Screwed” in the same way if he chooses a different, older model Dell. I bet I can find a machine on the Dell site with close to the specs you mention for close to the price you mention.
I can tell you now you generally get more bang for your buck with each new series of Dell machines compared to it’s predecessor in the same market niche. There’s also always a price/performance sweet spot where spending more in that series doesn’t buy you much more. (How much more is 0.16GHz worth to the average word processing, web browsing, emailing user?)
Your purchasing people need to keep up with change, and get those newer machines on your price lists and jeep up with that moving sweet spot.
“Do you even want to deal with a company with those sort of practices?”
As I said, your district’s fault, not Dell’s. Although I’m sure it would be nice if DELL were more proactive and helped you save money.
Okay, well at least you’re honest.
I guess that’s just where we differ.
The idea that Dell wouldn’t offer all public school districts their best price on their latest hardware without the district begging, hunting, or poring over price lists is horrible corporate behavior.
I mean trying to get a few bucks extra per unit from a for-profit corporation or a consumer is one thing, but intentionally shafting a public school district for profit ranks pretty low in my book.
I still find it hard to believe that you are seriously okay with that, but whatever.
@ Jobs,
“…No magic, no tricks, no one per household.” Sorry Jobs, but those ten Dells that we got for our lab had to be purchased in two separate orders via telephone because there was a limit of five per order. The website may have let us purchase all of the units at once, but they were more expensive on the website for some reason and we never could get the web-quotes and phone-quotes to mesh.
“…you generally get more bang for your buck with each new series of Dell machines.” I don’t disagree. But you neglect to mention that this is true of Macintosh as well. I have been using Apples since the IIe and PCs since the PC Junior. There have been many innovations that have allowed Macintosh to deliver “more bang for my buck”. Remember what Mac OS X and what would later become iLife were like in their beginnings? I don’t remember Safari or a GarageBand-like app in 10.0. Indeed, Macs have consistently introduced new technologies first in the consumer marketplace. You can find examples of such here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Macintosh#Effects_on_the_technology_industry
That’s all for now.
Funny, “Jobs” could be mistaken for Mac Dude…
“Macs have consistently introduced new technologies first in the consumer marketplace. “
Referencing your article.
Apple may have been the first to BUNDLE some of these, certianly not the first to SELL a machine with them nor were they the company that innovated and INVENTED them. First use of these pre-dates Apple by many years in some cases.
WYSIWIG – Xerox
Long file names – Unix
3.5″ floppies – Sony
PC Sound – Creative Labs
SCSI – Shugart(Segate)/NCR
USB – Compaq, Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC), IBM, Intel, Microsoft, NEC and Northern Telecom.
Firewire – Apple, Sony.
802.11 – Alvarion BreezeCom, Lucent, Netwave Technologies , Symbol Technologies, Proxim
CD-ROM – Philips, Sony
DVD-R – Pioneer, Sony
Touchpad – Synaptecs, Alps
Trackball – Atari
Hard Disk MP3 Player – Creative Labs
Heck When you look back at it, sounds like Apple is mostly inspired by Sony, Xerox and Creative Labs.
If any of these kids decide to go any further in the creative fields, they’ll find Macs in most of the tertiary labs they might enter. They’ll then realize their schools were clueless.
“they plan on replacing the old G3 iMacs in the Graphic Design lab aty the high school with new Dells”, from further up.
I’m glad they aren’t doing that in my school. They’ve got new Dells in the ICT room (computer lab for you americans) and they are slow as shit, the server login takes years, running windows xp obviously. In our graphics room we have G3 iMacs which im glad to say are being replaced by new iMacs (although im a bit confused, either theyll get G5 ones or have photoshop running slow thru rosetta). Anyway, my point is that these new dells are crap, if its just because they run windows. OS9 boots in a snap and has much more features than windoze. Apple should release OS9 for X86, for free, just to show windoze users how shockingly bad XP is, that apple’s os from almost 10 years ago beats it in terms of speed security and whatever.
MW=hot, the server room (windoze server) is bloody hot in our school, im sure an xserve wouldnt be that bad.
Jobs: Apple might not have been the first to develop certain technologies, but it was certainly the first to make them accessible to the mainstream market.
@ Jobs,
MacJack took the words right out of my mouth. Apple was the first to use many of the technologies in your list in a meaningful way in the consumer marketplace. BTW, you’ll notice that Dell is absent from your list of innovators.
i smell a macdude in here somewhere…
MacJack
For some reason, some Pro Apple people living in their bubble think that whenever Apple launches something that it’s new AND unique AND developed by Apple.
That’s the point I’m refuting.
The point is they weren’t always the first to use them meaningfully in the consumer market, and the reality is that the best that can be claimed in a lot of these instances was that Apple was first to bundle a technology everyone else was already widely selling as an option.
These days the world moves faster, and the “firsts” in hardware more often than not come from the PC side.
First 3.7Ghz dual core dual processor Intel workstation (4 cores)? Apple? No.
First 20″ notebook? Apple? No.
First shipping Core Duo machines. Apple? No.
First ultralight (~3lb) core Duo notebooks? Apple? No.
First use of latest graphics chipsets. Apple? No.
You’ve gotta wonder if Apple will Ever be on the leading edge for hardware again or remain a fast follower like Dell.
You forgot to mention “trusted computing.”
@ Jobs,
Let’s cover your most recent list one at a time:
• “3.7Ghz 4 cores…” No argument there!
• “First 20″ notebook” Maybe it’s just me, but I cannot envision using a laptop that large. Also consider the fact that Apple was the first to bring 17″ notebooks to market (unless I am misremembering). I remember reading articles at the time which said that laptop sizes would only go up from 17″. Thus, Apple was actually the catalyst for the 20″ laptops that are coming into existence today.
• “First shipping Core Duo machines.” Whether or not Apple was the first to ship I cannot say. But I do remember that Apple purchased so many of the new chips when they launched that companies such as Dell had problems obtaining the new chips for a time. I am fairly confident that Apple was the first to manufacture in volume with the Duos.
• “First ultra-light (~3lb) core Duo notebooks…” Maybe, I don’t know enough to comment.
• “First use of latest graphics chipsets.” The last time I remember Apple making a splash with a graphics chipset was with the 30″-capable card in the PowerMacs. I think that we will see significant progress in this area when the PowerMacs are replaced with Mactels.
Let me also address some of the items from another of your lists. I could probably refute most of these if I had a few hours to spend on this activity!:
• “3.5” floppies” – Sony invented the disks. But as I remember, it was the original Macintosh that was built around the 3.5″ diskette. The 3.5″ could have turned into another Betamax for Sony had it not been for the Mac.
• “PC Sound” – I recently watched a TV special that was called, “How William Shatner Changed the World,” or something like that. In the special, it is said that the Macintosh II was the first consumer computer capable of playing a song in full stereo sound via hard drive.
• “USB” – Wasn’t Apple an original member of the USB Implementers Forum?
• “Touchpad” Apple has recently innovated with the Scrolling TrackPad.
• “Hard Disk MP3 Player” – I would argue that the iPod was the first hard disk MP3 player of any commercial relevance.
Other items that we should discuss include:
• Desktop publishing – It is widely accepted that Apple played a crucial role in the development and implementation of the desktop publishing revolution.
• Microsoft Office – Macintosh got the MS Office suite before Windows. Perhaps this is because Windows was not stable enough?
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• PPC – Apple (along with IBM and Motorola) invented the PPC architecture. This architecture is still relevant today because all three of the major video game consoles in the most recent generation are using the PPC architecture.
The End
Oops! I was trying to say that I don’t have time to refute all of the items on your list. The items I have commented on I am obviously trying to refute.
• “First 20″ notebook” Maybe it’s just me, but I cannot envision using a laptop that large.”
Agree but doesn’t make it any less true. I’m sure there’s some people who’ll happily lug one of these beasts around.
“First shipping Core Duo machines.” major point though is that others were first, lots of people did claim Apple had a big lead with core Duo, in fact they were just first to announce and dozens of other machines shipped before them.
“I don’t know enough to comment.”
Should be easy, does Apple have one? No. Do others, yes.
” I think that we will see significant progress in this area when PowerMacs are replaced with Mactels.”
Probably, but not SOONER than all the Windows gaming card vendors start selling one.
“The 3.5″ could have turned into another Betamax for Sony had it not been for the Mac.”
Yes, there were competing 3.5″ disk formats, and the Mac was a solid reason for it’s more widespread adoption, Apple didn’t use it first, nor invent it.
• “PC Sound” – I recently watched a TV special that was called, “How William Shatner Changed the World,” or something like that. In the special, it is said that the Macintosh II was the first consumer computer capable of playing a song in full stereo sound via hard drive.
You could argue whether the Macintosh II’s 8 bit stereo sound with 7.5kHz low pass filter was “full stereo” vs the Soundblaster’s later 16 bit, 22kHz sound. but both PC and Mac had other “sound cards” available about the same time, with the timing win going to the PC.
• “USB” – Wasn’t Apple an original member of the USB Implementers Forum?
No.
• “Touchpad” Apple has recently innovated with the Scrolling TrackPad.
Years after PCs have this feature, albeit implemented diffently with a scroll area on the pad.
“I would argue that the iPod was the first hard disk MP3 player of any commercial relevance.”
No argument there, but my point is they were not first and didn’t invent it. They just saw someone else’s product and did an Apple version.
“• Desktop publishing – It is widely accepted that Apple played a crucial role in the development and implementation of the desktop publishing revolution.”
Agree.
“• Microsoft Office – Macintosh got the MS Office suite before Windows. Perhaps this is because Windows was not stable enough? “
Or business people were happy with Lotus 123, Word, Wordperfect etc. And at the time they were much more robust business apps than the Mac Office suite, albeit much less pretty. But I agree most of the “office” GUI apps did orginate on or come out first on the Mac. but using your argument, it was the PC that made them popular.
“• PPC – Apple (along with IBM and Motorola) invented the PPC architecture.”
Which at least as far as PCs are concerned is the looser of the speed race. Arguably the 68k was a nicer processor than the x86 architecturally, but Mororola just couldn’t keep up with Intel’s price and performance improvements.
For Power PC, Sure lots of embedded devices and even some high end IBM servers use it, but you can bet that Motorola, IBM or Apple are not really that happy with how the PPC story played out.
Apple’s a two time looser in the processor horse picking race. By finally going to Intel they’ve assured 1) they will never again have the big performance disadvantage that built up over the last few years 2) They’ll never have anything faster than anyone else either.
Apple was first or made popular…
WYSIWIG – Xerox
Not really as Apple’s GUI ended up quite a bit different (read – usable and not an in-house experiment)
Long file names – Unix
No big deal, better than 8.3
3.5″ floppies – Sony
As mentioned by another, drive was Sony but Apple lead way in it’s use (away from 5″ floppy)
PC Sound – Creative Labs
??? Apple has always (?) had sound on board vs separate sound cards in PCs
SCSI – Shugart(Segate)/NCR
Who said Apple had to invent it, it just used it while PCs were suffering under other “crippled” buses (SCSI was easy and great re daisy chaining devices, unlike the PC world… see Macs “plug & play” vs Wintel “plug & pray”)
USB – Compaq, Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC), IBM, Intel, Microsoft, NEC and Northern Telecom.
USB was non too popular UNTIL Apple made it THE interface for the original iMac, thus all the “fruity” coloured USB devices that exploded onto the market after the coloured iMac (printers, drives, scanners, hubs, mice, speakers, etc)
Firewire – Apple, Sony.
Sony had little if anything to do with Firewire until after Apple presented it to a standards group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewire); Firewrie was supposedly used internally in the Mac before going external
802.11 – Alvarion BreezeCom, Lucent, Netwave Technologies , Symbol Technologies, Proxim
And Apple was the first to make it a standard (or customizable) and popular feature; basically – first available built-in wifi (despite M Dell’s claims he was first… Wintel world maybe but after Apple overall)
CD-ROM – Philips, Sony
Yes, and Apple the first to come standard as it “popularized” multimedia (after it helped create the desktop publishing market… Apple with the Mac, Adobe with Postscript)
Touchpad – Synaptecs, Alps
Apple first to widely use (laptop); imprived with 2-finger design
Trackball – Atari
Again, Apple to first use in laptop while everyone else was using the IBM “eraser”
Hard Disk MP3 Player – Creative Labs
Basically ignored until Apple “did it right”
Let’s add…
– Desktop Accessories (todays Widgets… tomorrows Gadgets)
– true “plug & play” ve Wintel “plug & pray” (see above re SCSI
– working/usable drag & drop
– Aliases (copied as Shortcuts)
– ergonomic design of today’s laptop (keyboard at back with wrist-rest area)
– consistency is software GUIs/functionality (ie, from the Apple User Guidelines Handbook… Command P = Print; Command C = Copy, etc… MS and it’s developers still haven’t gotten it right, still too INCONSISTENT); before (and even after) Apple, it was a nightmare in the Wintel world with each company having it’s own keyboard/user layout (remember keyboard templates?)
– Quicktime – first software-based “multimedia” playback (without need of dedicated hardware); soon copied by Microsoft and Intel (Apple successfully sued MS & Intel (all used Canyon Software to help code) after QT code found in Video for Windows)
– consumer usable/friendly apps (ie, iMovie (copied as MovieMaker when MS rushed out WinME); iDVD; Garageband (both supposedly being copied in Vista)
etc, etc.
Even some Vista graphic elements are lifted straight from Aqua (ie, glassy/transparent (blue) buttons). How pathetic.
Apple seems to often (first) use what’s best for the end user rather than what’s cheapest or proprietary.
Bottom line… Wintel world has usually sat back and watched Apple to see whether to add features/enter a market (ie, was it successful? Yes? then “me too!”).
Gates/MS are particularly good at this tactic.
PS:
The sound chips in the Mac II were made by ….. Sony.
While Apple was an important PLATFORM for desktop publishing, it’d be hard to argue that the main innovator was anyone but Adobe.
and when it came to Office was it Apple or Microsoft who was the innovator?
Apple can hardly claim to have invented the PowerPC architecture That would go to IBM.
Nor the 68k processors, that would be Motorola Perhaps heavily influenced by Digital Equipment’s PDP processors also a nice symmetrical design.
Hey Jobs ( even though I hate to use that name) your way to much of a loser to have the name Jobs.. Maybe you should get a mac and get a LIFE instead of chasing down all of us Mac users..
“everyone else was using the IBM “eraser”
Personally I prefer the eraser, quicker and more precise than a touchpad but that’s just me.
And claims that Apple “Did it right” or were “more successful than others selling it” doesn’t negate the claim that they didn’t invent the technology.
And nobody said that Apple wasn’t a CUSTOMER for any of the innovation in the computer industry. Thy’re just not the SOURCE of all innovation as some would have you beleive. that honor is spread around between HUNDREDS of companies.
When you look for things Apple actually invented, particularly on the hardware side, you don’t find many things.
“Hey Jobs ( even though I hate to use that name) your way to much of a loser to have the name Jobs.. Maybe you should get a mac and get a LIFE instead of chasing down all of us Mac users..
“
Respond with rational arguments please, not rantings.
And “get a life” just to clarify it for you, owning iLife is NOT what people mean when they say “get a life”.
“Scrolling TrackPad… Years after PCs have this feature, albeit implemented differently…” That’s the point. Apple made the leap of allowing a person to scroll on any part of the trackpad. I’m sure that this comes in “handy” for some people (lol).
“They’re just not the SOURCE of all innovation as some would have you believe. that honor is spread around between HUNDREDS of companies.” You and I in in agreement there. Apple is far from the only innovator in the computer industry. I’ll even give Dell credit where credit is due. Dell — and Gateway to a lesser extend — has forced computer prices down industry-wide. That is a good thing as long as innovation and reliability remain unaffected.
Speaking of Gateway, that reminds me of another Apple innovation — the Apple stores. I’ll grant you that Apple may have gotten the idea from Gateway, and Dell is set to have a couple of their “clever” (ahem) stores open in time for the 2006 holiday season. But Apple is the company that “got it right.”
Apple is like Lucasfilm in the 70’s and 80’s. Had there been space battles in movies before? Sure! But Star Wars: A New Hope was the first to “get it right” in a lot of people’s books. On the other hand, Microsoft and Dell are like Lucasfilm in the 90’s and 2000’s. They milk their past successes — Star Wars franchise etc., Windows/Office, and bargain-box respectively — for every penny that those successes are worth. And an ignorant public consumes both without hesitation. In the now eternal words of Darth Vader, Noooooooooooooooooooo…[breaths]…ooooooooooooooo!
P.S. Thanks MacCanuck for the great post!
“in “handy” for some people (lol).”
The reviews are mixed with some people saying it doesn’t work very well. Anyway, hardly a leap.
Personally I hate all the “extra” features people are trying to put on trackpads and turn them all off (including double tap to click) but again, that’s probably just me.
I don’t think Dell ever set out to be an innovator, just an efficient assembler of boxes. They’re letting someone else do the innovation and picking up the promising looking ones. So from that point of view they’re doing just what they set out to do.
But when you look at it, on the hardware side Apple are similar, wait for those other companies to come up with an idea and pick what they think are good ones.
On to Star Wars, I think the older public who remember the first launch of the originals consumes star wars movies because the first couple were good and innovative, and now they can’t help but want to see how the stories end, despite knowing that they’re probably not going to be that impressed by each later offering.
That too seems a lot like Apple. A lot of innovation in the early days of personal computers, not much lately.
Jobs:
and when it came to Office was it Apple or Microsoft who was the innovator?
That would probably be Apple since, IIRC, Apple had Appleworks (credited with being the first integrated office suite) out for the Apple II.
It went back and forth between Claris and Apple and a Mac version came out (around ’84-85?) while MS was still creating Word and Excel (separate apps) for the Mac.
My main bone of contention is that if anyone “invents and innovates” in the computer world, it’s Apple, unlike the Wintel side and particularly Microsoft that manages to include the word “innovate” (or variations) in almost every second sentence yet rarely does.
In fact, MS is nothing more than basically an ethically-challenged acquisition and marketing entity.
Aside… More MS “present partners” (read “future victims”) on the horizon with the new “iPod killer” MS-branded mp3 player and music service? Good bye Creative, Samsung, Toshiba, Sony, Napster, MTV/Urge, etc. You were good suckers… oops, “accomplices” while it lasted.
Some (people/organizations) never learn. Same with some so-called educators (ie, the ones in Baltimore) 🙁
…
“My main bone of contention is that if anyone “invents and innovates” in the computer world, it’s Apple,”
My contention is that that’s your perception, not reality. Look at thte list, see who was actually innovating.
Now putting all those apps together in the one box, is that innovation? Or is creating the individual categories?
Spreadsheets: VisiCalc, Microsoft(Multiplan), Lotus
Word processors: IBM, Wang, Wordstar, WordPerfect
WYSIWYG word processors: Xerox, Apple, Microsoft.
It’s sad to see big profile schools like Baltimore continue to make uninformed and often poor decisions like this. This has NOTHING to do with Photoshop on Windows vs. Mac. This has everything to do with Apple’s inability and in some cases, ignorance, to continue to go after the old retired IBM guy that becomes a school IT director by default. I’ve seen this in public schools as well as universities.
Here are the facts. Education, science, research, film, television, music, publishing and photography are just a few of the industries where Apple has a strong dominance. This continued ignorant and unfounded argument that there are no Macs in the “real world” is pointless. Because Wal-Mart and your local bank have Dells is also the “real world” – but where this argument falls apart is when you ingore the multi billiion dollar industries I listed above.
Nobody who has worked in IT in a mixed platform area can say that Windows boxes are less work and cost to support. Cheap is cheap – you can always find a cheap Dell or Gateway – I would hope student’s education is worth more than cheap! This is a bad lesson that causes major concern over our public schools and the direction they take.
I’ve left schools WITH tenure that tried to force a platform on their faculty because of cheaper boxes (with awful experience). I enjoy my current job because our adminstration and IT department recognizes the importance of COMPUTERS and TECHNOLOGY in education. They have long adandoned the Mac vs. PC war. You teach on the platform that is dominant in your field – not what costs a hundred bucks less on day one. VERY VERY sad.
Jobs…
You’re pretty selective about what you consider important areas of innovation.
A computer is useless without apps but so are apps or no value without an adequate means to use them.
Even Visicalc was designed for and used on the first usable/viable (not hobbiest) personal computer, the Apple II.
You conveniently ignore some of the biggest “innovations” (that have made usable, or influenced, computers to this day)…
WYSIWYG (and colour) – actually works on the Mac, still inconsistent on Windows
Plug & Play – ditto
Applescript – coding for the masses and a boon to efficient (automated) workflows
Quicktime (changed media distribution and presentation for the unwashed masses);
“Apple User guidelines” (consistency across applications, copied (usually) in Windows apps)
Desktop publishing – changed print publishing forever (Apple/Mac – built around graphics, Adobe – Postscript and consumer affordable laser printer)
Consumer friendly apps – ie, whole iLife suite brought “digital power” to the average home user (as I stated, iMovie copied with MovieMaker; MS iDVD & Garageband to be included in Vista)
Leading industrial design (maintenance & ergonomics) – Apple is dissed for “pretty boxes and no substance” (universities, high end media production (graphic, film, video, audio), science/biotech/genetics/research, etc communities may tend to disagree) yet often widely copied.
Even “obscure” technologies like MS’s Cleartype has a basis in video imagery used by Apple in the late ’70s (Apple II – sub-pixel font rendering)… claimed by MS as some big “innovative” breakthrough for micro-type yet decades old.
(probably more and/or better “innovations” but I don’t have the time or inclination (your Job or obsession?) to delve further… I’ll add if memory permits)
The refrain from the Wintel camp is usually “well anyone could have done that” or “that was inevitable” but it’s often Apple that does it first.
With Wintel, it’s usually a Homer Simpson “D’oh!” moment (many “D’oh!” moments actually).
Just admit the fact that Apple could create a computer that spit gold bars and you’d still find fault (“hey, it’s only 99.9999999999% pure” or “we coulda done that too if we wanted to…”).
Check out what Business Week has to say about Macs and education:
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jun2006/tc20060614_650605.htm?sub=techmaven
Wow, this transition has to finish, and Leopard has to get released-soon! These battles are heating up.