By SteveJack
“Apple Computer Inc., the maker of the Macintosh computer and iPod music device, on Wednesday rolled out [Boot Camp, software designed] to run Microsoft’s dominant Windows operating system on its [Macintosh] PCs, a move that could draw millions of new buyers,” Reuters reported today. “By enabling the move to Windows, the world’s No. 1 operating system, Apple hopes to draw people who want Macs, considered by many as easier to use and more stylish, but prefer the Windows operating system.”
The Reuters quote above is typical. People who’ve never used a Mac are about to get a wonderful and shocking awakening. Nobody “prefers” using Windows outside of the Ballmer household – and that’s because the Ballmers are brainwashed. I’m not targeting Reuters here, I’m using their quote as an example of a mindset held by many, many people.
People who have never or hardly used a modern Macintosh have no idea what they’re missing. Because their idea of a “personal computer” is a mediocre Windows box that causes frustration and fails to inspire, these Windows-only PC users cannot figure out why people buy and use and extol Macs. Loving their computer is such a foreign idea to them that they are forced to jump through mental hoops to explain it all away. Mac users are “fanatics,” “cultists,” and worse. Anything, but the real reason, for that would mean they made the wrong choice: Macintosh is better than Windows.
Now, millions of people in the market for a new PC have a new choice: buy a Dell or HP or Sony or anybody else’s PC that only runs Windows or buy an Apple PC that runs both Mac OS X and Windows. Why would anybody in their right mind buy anything but an Apple Mac?
Millions of Windows-only users will now get to see for themselves what they’ve been missing. We all know what happens when people really try a Mac. They want to use the Mac and they dislike using Windows more and more. Eventually, they figure out ways to use Windows as little as possible or stop using it altogether.
As Mac market share gains come, and they will come, software developers will notice; so will Wall Street.
Today, Apple dropped a hydrogen bomb on the Windows hegemony. Nothing will ever be the same. Immediately affected will be the box assemblers like Dell, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Lenovo, etc. Eventually, Microsoft itself will feel the pain as people naturally gravitate to booting into Mac OS X and realizing that Windows is dreck and they can do without it. Today, Apple changed the world, yet again. Hang on, it’s going to be a wild ride!
SteveJack is a long-time Macintosh user, web designer, multimedia producer and a regular contributor to the MacDailyNews Opinion section.
Advertisements:
• Apple’s brand new iPod Hi-Fi speaker system. Home stereo. Reinvented. Available now for $349 with free shipping.
• Apple’s new Mac mini. Intel Core, up to 4 times faster. Starting at just $599. Free shipping.
• MacBook Pro. The first Mac notebook built upon Intel Core Duo with iLife ’06, Front Row and built-in iSight. Starting at $1999. Free shipping.
• iMac. Twice as amazing — Intel Core Duo, iLife ’06, Front Row media experience, Apple Remote, built-in iSight. Starting at $1299. Free shipping.
• iPod Radio Remote. Listen to FM radio on your iPod and control everything with a convenient wired remote. Just $49.
• iPod. 15,000 songs. 25,000 photos. 150 hours of video. The new iPod. 30GB and 60GB models start at just $299. Free shipping.
• Connect iPod to your television set with the iPod AV Cable. Just $19.
Related articles:
Reuters: Apple’s new ‘Boot Camp’ could draw millions of new Mac buyers – April 05, 2006
Apple shares surge over 6-percent in early trading on ‘Boot Camp’ news – April 05, 2006
Apple introduces Boot Camp: public beta software enables Intel-based Macs to run Windows XP – April 05, 2006
This will change evrything, but it won’t be a huge todal wave. Those on the fence will give Macs a try. The user base will continue to expand, as well. In time, all software will have to play more nicely with one another.
If Apple has Xc0ode for Windows as its next step, wouldn’t it then make Apple’s software the premeir software programming environment, allowing them to absorb windows in the long run?
so this kind of negates the idea that Apple Computer wanted to keep market share growing slowly so that they would be able to keep up with demand…
MDN MW: big, as in the market share should be allowed to grow in big steps.
This is a sad, mixed blessing. I see the reason for it on a purely business level but the very thought of seeing a Windows desktop framed by Apple hardware makes my stomach churn. If only they would just market the shit out of OS X they wouldn’t have to resort to this.
Why would anyone in their right mind buy anything other than a Mac? Price. Price. Price.
masonreloaded:
price,price, price??
so you tell me that you can buy a laptop with the same spics as MacPro wth half the price.
please give me a link I’ll I will buy it right away. i mean it. really.
my ibook rocks, never an issue. In the long run, and off the shelf Mac’s cost is becoming a moot point. Buyer beware, do your homework, read the fine print (see: Dell), and note all the software that comes ‘free’ with Macs.
mw: study-like your mom told you to do.
Scarbro: That’s silly. We’ve had Windoze desktop framed by mac hardware ever since we had Virtual PC and SoftPC.
This isn’t a “resort.” It’s an assault.
MW: “real” as on “get real.”
Well, let’s remember that a “switcher” will have to buy a separate Win XP OS, if they want to dual boot, unless they have an XP disk already. And, that isn’t very cheap.
I feel similar Scarbro, though I do see the sense in it – especially if anyone here is also a gamer and has resorted to buying XP for that purpose and as for me I’ve resisted that and pride myself at being 100% Macintosh (I have 5 Mac’s all networked together).
Think on this more; since Vista is only a fraction of what Longhorn was, is it conceivable with the recent slip on release date of Vista that M$ should instead just release Vista as Service Pack 4 for XP!
Well mason yes Mac’s cost a tad more, but also save you a whole lot more in the long run. I for one would rather pay more for something that’ll work instead of paying some IT Engineer to go away on a long-haul vacation and work on their tan with those hourly rates they charge!
It is quite depressing when your own financial circumstances will only allow you to buy a Windows PC in the hope you’ll be able to afford an Apple Macintosh at a later date only to find you cannot save enough of your earnings through paying to fix your Windows PC only too often.
With that if you buy cheap (Dell), don’t expect it to work for long or even be close to being reliable.
I applaud that Japanese Bank for shedding 2,300 Windows PC’s for Apple Mac’s, at last a major player in the business world has taken the intiative, they won’t be disappointed and I imagine laugh at their nearest banking competitor when their computer systems go down in what I could term ‘The Daily Windows Ritual’, and for them to continue on with their business as usual along with gaining on the market at the same time.
How about Win XP security holes when running on the Intel Macs? I hope that the security perception of Macs are not tarnished because people are running Win XP on their Macs.
Stan,
It won’t tarnish as Apple is adamant in their literature about Boot Camp how unsafe Windows is.
MW: past.
As in, NetBIOS and Windows are from another century past.
An atom-blaster is a good weapon, but it can point both ways.
Look how excited the Mac community is to be able to run Windows on their computers. So we have people who normally run Windows continuing to do so, with no reason to buy a Mac. Mac users are now purchasing copies of Windows. . .or pirating it, which I find even funnier. And there are those fence people who will buy a Mac, but now must add the cost of Windows on top of the base price. LOL
HAHA, go sell crazy someplace else. We’re all stocked up here.
Uhm, Haha, are you so entirely oblivious to reason that you can think of not a single reason why Microsoft users would buy a Mac? Are you then slothful, arrogant, or just delusional? As far as the Mac community, you demonstrate you superior reasoning skills once again — most Mac users don’t use Windows. So what you’re seeing is a subset of users expressing delight that they can sell the PC they have for those 1-3 programs they have to use for work or for games. I’m sure you do find this funny, but the PC-only manufacturers don’t. Apple has successfully co-opted Sony, Dell, HP, Gateway and the rest of ’em. Not too shabby.
SteveJack you stupid faggot. Why would anyone buy Apple’s overpriced shit to run Windows.
Well, I’m pissed!
I just placed a sell order for another stock so I could by some cheap Apple stock … and they drop the f*&**& bomb on me this morning. The stock is up $6.04 since this morning. Couldn’t ve they kept this news under wraps for another couple of days? Bummer!
“Dude, you got a Dell? What are you, stupid? Only Apple Macs run both Mac OS X and Windows!”
Er… Last time I saw, people managed to run OS X on PCs just fine. Some trickery involved, yes, but…
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” />
Also, Dell has nothing to worry about. It’s not about the ability to run Windows, but about giving Enterprise-level tech support and equipment replacement policies.
Call the IT department “Data Processing.”
When they say “enterprise,” you say “business.”
Or “phasers on stun.”
Apple MacBook $1999
Same configuration Dell $1213.
Dual core Dell with slightly lesser specs (but you add the extra options you care about) $799.
Lemme see, I can pay 150% to 64% more for about the same thing and run Windows on it…
There’s a deal only a Mac lover could love…
There’s no hydrogen bomb here, just another PC vendor entering the PC marketplace, and an overpriced vendor at that.
The biggest danger for Apple is that a lot of Mac users will try Windows (Because they now can easily) Find out it’s not as bad as they’s been lead to believe, and make their next PC a $799 Dell.
A Hydrogen Bomb (or at least a small roadside bomb) would be Jobs announcing a version of OS X that runs on the $799 Dell…
Except I would argue that many Mac users have used XP and have no interest in buying a Dell or from any other PC vendor.
I’m not a Mac user, but you’re an idiot if you think a Mac Mini doesn’t compare favorably with a Dell Desktop.
Let’s really start to compare specs… When you add in all the extras and the quality of components. A Dell with similar features costs far more. You build me a $600 PC (including software) that can handle desktop video as well as a Mac and you win.
The only complaint I have is that Apple is slow to increase processor speeds.
Also comparing Apple to Dell isn’t really a fair comparison. Dell is hardly a boutique PC manufacturer. You start to compare Apple laptops to Sony and Toshiba and Apple Desktops to Sony Desktops and you have a much more pertient comparison.
If you’re happy with a Walmart quality PC then Dell is certainly fine.
There’s also cost of ownership and length of usability. A 400MHz iMac holds up much better today than a similar Dell or other generic PC from the same age. Try running Windows XP on a Pentium II and see what I mean. Apple’s overall service rate of repair is much better as well.
Like I said. I’m not a Mac user. I’ve never owned a Mac.. I’m not even a regular Linux user. I use Windows XP mainly because I use it professionally. This blind hatred and concentration on price from PC users that are perfectly happy with a horribly bloated and awful OS is rediculous.
I plan on buying a iMac or a Mac Mini as my next PC because I can run Windows XP for work when I need to… but I predict that 90% of the time I’ll be booting into OS X.
“Let’s really start to compare specs… When you add in all the extras and the quality of components.”
You have been fooled if you think the motherboard, LCD, processor and hard disk inside your Intel MacBook are better “quality” than those which come with a Dell, heck the same contract manufacturers build machines for both of them.
And on price, I did compare Apples with Apples (Or Dells), the same exact PC is 64% cheaper from Dell, and even includes translucent white plastic trim on the case…
the 150% cheaper $800 dell is cosmetically identical to it’s more expensive brother, still a core Duo, just a little lighter on all specs.
So either you buy box A with the same contents and and a Dell name, or box B with the same contents and an Apple name for 150-64% more.
You’re not buying any extra quality, performance etc, just a very expensive nameplate.
The equivalent Dell to the Mac mini is $320. an 88% premium. Sure, the Mac does come in a pretter, smaller box. but is about 50% slower than the Dell.
“Except I would argue that many Mac users have used XP and have no interest in buying a Dell or from any other PC vendor”
Yep, a marketer’s dream, to be able to sell a commodity product at a higher price to consumers who show strong brand loyalty, just by tweaking the packaging a bit. Well done Apple, but for how long now that direct comparisons are available?
Mr. Why,
Show us the specs for each machine. Post, right here, the specs for the Dell and the MacBookPro you’re comparing to prove to us idiotic Mac users that we’re wasting our money.
Actually, even if you were right, you’re still missing the point. A Corvette is a fast sports car, but I would rather drive a BMW every day. It’s just a better user experience.
And Snafu, last I heard, there’s some SERIOUS trickery getting OSX installed on a PC. I need my computer to just work. I don’t want to spend 2 days trying to get some kludge from hell to work right, I just want to get down to business.
BTW, I know this is wrong, but I will NEVER, EVER, EVER pay for a real copy of Windows for installation on my Intel Imac. Microsoft doesn’t deserve another freaking penny for that steaming pile of crap.
The average user won’t be affected, but the computer geek in thier family will be. They are the first that need to be converted.
Go to the Dell website, play with configurations of the E1505 core duo system which starts at $799, change all the items to be the same as the Mac Book, you’ll be up to $1250 (today)
“Show us the specs for each machine”
Here we go:
Start at $799:
Core Duo 166GHz / 667MHz frontside bus
512MB memory
XP Media center edition
15.4″ XGA 1280×800
Intel GMA 950 graphics
Core Duo at 1.83GHz 677MHz Frontside bus
40GB SATA HDD @5400 RPM
24x CDRW/DVD drive
Wireless B/G adapter
Translucent white trim – priceless
Add:
15.4″ LCD WXSGA 1680 x 1050 pixels
80GB SATA HDD @ 5400 RPM
8x double layer CD/DVD burner
Wireless B/G networking + Bluetooth
256MB ATI mobility Radeon X1400
Now you pay $1250.
Compare to:
15.4-inch TFT display with 1440×900 resolution
1.83GHz Intel Core Duo / 667MHz frontside bus
512MB (single SO-DIMM) 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM
80GB 5400rpm Serial ATA hard drive
Slot-load SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 with 128MB GDDR3 memory
$1999 from that other PC maker…
Ok just to cut off people pointing out differences you say you get a webcam with the Mac, a built in modem with the PC, a little more graphics memory with the PC, a slightly faster graphics chip with the MAC but the systems are very very close in spec.
Yawn!
“If you think nickels you get nickels. If you think dollars you get dollars.” – Ray
“Actually, even if you were right, you’re still missing the point. A Corvette is a fast sports car, but I would rather drive a BMW every day. It’s just a better user experience.”
Well I’ve owned both and I’d say it’s a matter of preference.
My Z06 vette is a great piece of machinery at a great price, for performance it beats my BMW M5 off the line, goes round corners better and brought more of a smile to my face.
But isn’t as good a highway cruiser, daily commuter or 4 person passenger car as the BMW M5, which itself is still a pretty fun car.
However for commuting it did have better air conditioning and cupholders
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” /> ever try to use the cupholders in a BMW M5 to actually put cups in?
I sometimes wish I still had my Ferrari 328 which is not as refined or as fast as either the Z06 or the M5, and also has kind of a cheesy interior, but has that magic something…. Design, exhaust note, feel.
But there isn’t that difference in the PC hardware. A Mac running XP and a Dell or IBM or HP running XP could probably be confused for each other by the average consumer if you took all the badges off.
There’s no way that’s going to happen with a Ferrari and a BMW and a Corvette, each of which have different distinct personalities.
“If you think nickels you get nickels. If you think dollars you get dollars.”
Take care of the pennies, the dollars will look after themselves.
I went to Dell’s page and tried the same thing, to configure an E1505 Dual Core as close to a MacBook Pro as possible. I got $1962.
Of course, to make the feature comparison less laughably lopsided, I had to add Windows XP Professional rather than the Media Center Edition, and add a remote control (which is funny because it doesn’t even work with XP Professional), the Windows XP Professional reinstall discs (can you believe you have to pay extra for that?), Office Personal Edition (which is a bitter substitute for iWork plus iLife, but whattaya gonna do), and the “UltraSharp” screen with TrueLife (no match for the MBP’s TFT, but still).
And you know what? That Dell machine, for about the same price as a MBP, wouldn’t run Mac OS X, wouldn’t come with any software for editing movies or burning HD DVDs or editing web pages, …
Oh never mind.
Why would you be adding XP Pro? Don’t understand if you want the media options?
Oh well, Lucky Apple has customers as dumb as you who can’t effectively configure Dells. $1200 extra to have someone put everything in a box for you, perhaps that’s a fair price.
And don’t you know, XP home and Media Center Edition include software for editing movies?
I have a bridge for sale, drop me an email…
What kind of drugs are you smoking boy?
The remote adds $23, or $104 if you want it to come with a TV tuner (read actual multimedia video handling TIVO replacement, not talk about being a home media hub)
Microsoft Works adds $55 bucks, full office $0 if you work for a company who already brought you a copy in the office (Yes home use is legal thru the Microsoft Home Use Program).
The install disk if you want it is $8 extra, but you can still reinstall from the hard drive if you need to.
So in terms of hardware you had to add, that makes another $23, plus $8 if you don’t want to call up a Dell guy to get him to reinstall software for you, plus another $55 if you can’t get Office for free from your company.
And if you’re not a home user but are any sort of serious company who doesn’t use Windows, you would likely have purchased (or stolen) Office for the Mac anyway so that’s a wash.
Why the hell would I ever want to use Windows – enough of the bickering on the cost comparisons between Dell and Apple… who cares about the hardware costs? Hell, I’d pay an extra $1,000 to use OSX for the next 5 years!
“Hell, I’d pay an extra $1,000 to use OSX for the next 5 years!”
That’s Lucky! because it sounds like you need to!
…um… first post.
I’ve been a long time mac user and cant imagine life without them. I think what apple has done is a brilliant move adding boot camp to the mix. I own a company that has 90 percent macs and 10 percent pc’s. The 10 percent I have, was a must, because there was no could work around for the app I needed to run. The only thing Bill Gates is brillant at is being a master at monopolizing the world with his operating system! He didn’t rule because his product was the best. You have to ask yourself if all apps in the world ran on windows or OSX, which kind of pc would people buy? I have no bad feelings toward windows at all, the market place will always decide who wins or loses, it’s always been that way!
Her’s the deal, where Apple will steal the show in the future will totally come from the Ipod and not it’s computers. Apple has had a brillant plan for a long timel! Get the demographic of 8-18 using Ipods and apple technology and they will want to use macs because they will see the ease of use and how well they can store there photos and music and movies. This age group doesn’t give a flying flip about business apps! Kids in this age group have no bias, all they care about is what technology best meets their needs!
Also kids love excitement and buzz and that is something that no other computer company on this planet is doing as good as apple! I would like to say the reason I am a mac head is the constant excitement that they have brought to my life over the years and especially how much they have ramped it up the last couple!
To Mauifisher
yes, young kids, this is exactly the kind of demographic that will pay an extra $1200 for a PC because young people have LOTS of money.
That’s why it’s usually the young people you see living in expensive houses, driving nice cars and eating out at expensive restaurants.
Compare the ipod scenario: there are products at $69, $99, $149, $199, $249, $299, $399. They’re nicely spaced to extract the maximum possible cash even from price sensitive consumers. And there’s no real price difference between them and competing players.
That’s a whole different ball game. I can bet if a competing player cost $159 and had about the same specs as a $399 ipod, a lot less ipods would be sold.
Now with that $1200 saved on th notebook, you can buy about 17 entry level ipods or four of the top of the line ones, or a lot of beer and pizza.
“People who’ve never used a Mac are about to get a wonderful and shocking awakening. Nobody “prefers” using Windows outside of the Ballmer household – and that’s because the Ballmers are brainwashed. I’m not targeting Reuters here, I’m using their quote as an example of a mindset held by many, many people.”
Well then, if it’s held by many, many people, don’t you think you should give it more credit than just comparing it against your opinion. Your pretty much saying, “Eh, they’re all wrong, I’m right, Mac is the best…” etc. etc.
I rarely see any unbiased comments around here.
OSX has it’s good parts and so does Windows. If you haven’t used Windows since Win98 or 200 then I think you’d be in for a shock at how much more reliable it is now.
I think for most people that need to call tech support and have all sorts of problems with Windows just don’t know basic knowledge about computers. All you need to know is use a good antivirus, enable the firewall on your router, and don’t use crappy malware Kazaa programs and stuff.
In my first couple years of dealing with Win98 and 2000 I think I had a couple viruses cause of Napster and the like, after I wisened up though I haven’t had one yet. That’s with over 1TB of files and harddrives and constantly on computers and networks.
Anyways, I don’t want to talk about how people *should* use windows, the smart ones use them right so you don’t hear many problems about them. All the people buying computers for $300 at Walmart though, they’re the ones that need something foolproof like a Mac or Linux system. I really don’t think most of those buyers would want to spend the extra for a Mac though.
I’m watching the price of the Macbooks now though. If only they could be had with an Nvidia card in them for playing games and working in OpenGL apps in XP I’d be sold.
I love Mr. Jack.
Im a mac user since mid 2005, i used to be a devoted windows follower since windows 3.1 in 1993. Didnt like the versions of the Mac OS 9 and below, even though i did get a chance to fiddle with it once and a while. It never got any appeal, seemed pretty much the same usefulness as windows did.
When the colourful iMacs came out in 1998/9 they looked cool and appealing but OS 9 still didnt cut it for me, didnt have any significant reason for being better then windows and having to switch over.
Then i bought an ipod nano.. it was small and great for workouts in the gym and had itunes available on windows and i had read it was easy to transfer music to and from the ipod, which when i got it found out that it was quick and easy and intergrated very well with the ipod. This made me curious to have another look into the Mac OS and since OS X was now out and had evolved more since its initial release in 2001 i did some learning and researching about the benefits of OSX Tiger.
After extended comparisons, reviews and visits to the Apple store to experiment with OSX i had found an entire new and a lot more advanced operating system that integrates so well with the hardware then windows/bill gates could ever dream of.
And so i made the switch and got an iMac G5, the experience has just got better every day and continues to get better as i learn more and it is actually a joy now to use a computer and not like a routine that i have to go through all the time and endure which i used to do blindly without knowing. Also they are so quiet then any windows PC could ever be and it is a huge welcome to my ears.
And now with boot camp i can play some games that arnt available on the mac (GTA) and i can get rid of my windows box for a few apps that i could only use on windows as soon i buy a Macbook Pro in the next few months. Eventually I will not be needing Windows as now the popularity of OSX increases and so will the compatability of software from windows to OSX.
For all you people still in the pre-historic generation called Microsoft Windows, i can only feel sorry for you guys, you are blindy being mis-guided and tortured.
my 2 cents
This probably doesn’t belong here but I’m curious about a couple OSX things.
1. Compared to what I’m used to it feels slow, is there a way to make the windows open and minimize faster? (turning off effects maybe?) Or to be able to delete files with just one button instead of dragging to the trash all the time?
2.Is there a way to have the contents of the window move to fill in the empty space of the window if you make it bigger? I always put icons in list view so I can see more of them, but on OSX it seems it all goes horizontally at whatever the original window size was.
3. Can I make it so I don’t have to go to the the file menus to quit the program?
4. The mouse speed is pretty much only an acceleration adjustment, how can I make it the same quickness at light movement as it is at fast movement?
Those are just a few things that are pretty hard for me to get used to, if I can change them that would be awesome!
Firstly i reckon having Windows on a Mac aswell as OS X is a great thing! and when adding up the price of a mac compared to other annoyingly ugly PC systems you always have to take into account the heaps and heaps of better and more powerful software you get, most notabley OS X and the iLife suite. Windows is a great option for those one or 2, mainly business programs or games, that you might not be able to get on OS X
for Drew:
The command key! its the key with the apple symbol on it on either side of your keyboard, its your life line to quick controls.
command key + Q = quit any application
command key + delete = immediately send a file or lots of selected files to the trash without having to drag on drop them.
Theres lenty of settings, likke tunring on the ‘genie’ effect that will gain you a little bit of speed.
And if you want icons to spead out across a window so theres no free space click on “view” then “arrange by” and “name” name sorts everything alphabetically
also at the top of every finder window is 3 options to have your icons in classic OS 9 list view, a view more like Windows list view, and spread out icons.
Can’t really help you with the mouse thing except go to system preferenced and play around with the mouse settings.
Thanks Dan, I’m not a fan of the command key combinations though. That means I have to take my hand off the mouse or look for multiple keys instead of just selecting stuff and deleting. I suppose custom hotkeys could be set up though, if osx supports macros.
I did discover the different views and the other list views but none of them update if you resize the windows. Like if I just opened a window but it opened up too big, I want to be able to drag it to a corner or something and stretch it out and use the space that I stretch it too. Instead it just keeps the icons in a horizontal list and now the scroll bar is a super long horizontal scroll.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”hmmm” style=”border:0;” />
I dunno, they seem like simple things that would make navigating osx and dealing with multiple files a whole lot faster. All the Command + a key combinations reminds me of my old laptop with the messed up thumb cursor thing where I had to use the keyboard whenever I didn’t have access to a mouse.
“Why”, your posts were amusing but so so off the mark. Dell has been playing the price game perfectly, that I will admit. You can get a pretty decent Dell laptop for a good price and it will work pretty well for you, I know this because I have friends with Dell laptops. But don’t you think that there’s more to buying a computer or any product than just the cheapest you can get it? Is there a premium attached to BMW’s and Ferrari’s (cars which you claim to have owned) that you soak up because they are freaking cool cars? What justification did you give for that, or is it just that when it comes to computers you want to go as dirt cheap as you possibly can?
Dell wins when it comes to price, no argument here. But what they fail at, and miserably, is being cool. Why would they buy alienware? Because they’ve become gone from Dell to Dull. They have no significant R&D as far as innovation goes. They license every technology under the sun, like Sony’s Tru-brite screens or whatever you call those glare-ridden embarrassments, but never come up with anything truly unique on their own. People don’t fall in love with their Dell laptops.. they just kinda like them (I’m going off what I’ve observed).
People do, on the other hand, fall in love with apple laptops. Why? Maybe it’s the care that seems to have gone into the design: fibre-optic backlit keyboards, light sensing screens, motion sensor hard drive protection, mag-safe power cord, brushed aluminum casing, minimalist and beautiful design, thinness, slot-loading optical drives, bluetooth (before anyone else had it), etc. Plus I NEVER see a 5 year old Dell notebook but I see the old clamshell iBooks and titanium powerbooks all the time.
I think what we’re going to observe here is a systematic change in the PC market. People will move away from the build-it-yourself mentality and will also start to wise up to the fact that we are in the midst of a market controlled by a monopoly. Most people, and by most I mean the 92% of the world who own windows PCs but aren’t tech geeks, just want something that works, that they don’t have to bother configuring (you have to have knowledge or friends with knowledge to do that), that they can call for tech support that isn’t outsourced to India like Dell’s and HP’s and MS’, that has all the software they will need in the box so they don’t have to shop and pay for x aftermarket solutions, that won’t get destroyed by viruses and spyware, that looks good anywhere (Even in the kitchen!), that they can be proud of, and that has stuff in it that they might not know they even need (camera, bluetooth, pci-x, frontrow, etc).
I’m sorry, but we are going to start seeing a gradual change in the way people think about computers. I work at CompUSA on the weekends and everyone I talk to is an EASY sell on a Mac. Even if they balk at first it’s only a matter of showing them the machines and explaining the differences in even just the hardware before they willfully plunk down twice or even three times what they came in to spend (and no, I’m not THAT great of a salesman).
Oh, and “Why”, one more thing. You’re totally missing the point of the article. It’s highlighting the fact that you can run OS X AND Windows, not just Windows. IMO, running OS X is worth at least another $1000, and this isn’t coming from a bais life-long machead; I’ve been using Windows machines for 15 years now and I only just recently switched over to OS X. The contrast between Windows and Tiger is startling, and it can only be explained by the fact that Windows has been allowed to stagnate for years as a monopoly with no real pressure from any competitors to really stay ahead of the game.
It will all get evened out, trust me. There’s a reason why Microsoft ranks absolute LAST in surveys on customer trust, and Apple ranks the highest among computer companies.
Well I hear all you pc lovin nutz, but tI will be the first to tell you I make a living repairing PC’s and thank god for MS or I’d be outta biz! I service both, but the mac just has way fewer problems manley due to the lack of that hiddeous registry MS uses. Most user problems are related to the reg, though they don’t know it they think its thier pc hardware. For customers I like I help them switch for the idiot A-Holes I let em keep on callin me with there windows delemmas. Macs are just better theres no corvette beamer scenario it’s just simple Macs are far more reliable, easier to use, and darn it all around prettier! Wanna headache by a windows box, want a wet dream buy a mac.
“Is there a premium attached to BMW’s and Ferrari’s (cars which you claim to have owned) that you soak up because they are freaking cool cars?”
Firstly a Ferrari 328 isn’t a particulary expensive automobile, you can have one for less then the price of a new corvette, they cost about $40k, at least when I brought mine.
And yes, I brough the Ferrari because of branding, design, history and performance, and well, everyone’s gotta own a Ferrari sooner or later. The fact that it cost less than most mid/high end cars you see on the road is just a bonus. You’ve just gotta get used to the $3000 service bills for even the smallest jobs.
The Corvette Z06 is in essence a high end Dell, A fast good handling car with performance and handling which exceed both the Ferrari and the BMW. Yes it lacks some magic in body design compared to the Ferrari, has rubbery gearshift rather then the beatiful gated Ferrari item but outperforms it in every other aspect.
The Corvette is crude design in comparison swapping fat tyres for good chassis engineering and cubic inches for performance tuning and weight reduction.
But nevertheless the end result is very good. The only reason to buy the Ferrari is because you like the design the prancing horse badge on the hood and the growl of that lovely little V8.
Contrast the BMW, It’s faster and better handling than the Ferrari. it’s almost as fast and more comfortable and practical than the Z06. it’s so boring in it’s styling that it can easily be mistaken for a normal 5 series. It’s more expensive than either. Why would anyone buy it? When it comes down to it, 4 seats and a larger trunk and a more comfortable long distance cruiser.
But the point is still there are very real differences between these cars, and solid reasons to pay more for them than a Ford Focus, and solid reasons to choose one instead of the other based on your preferences and requirements from the vehicle.
That’s really not so with the Apple and the Dell running XP. They are identical in every important spec, perform about the same, weigh about the same and look about the same.
Effectivly it’s the choice between a Ford Focus and a pimped out Ford Focus.
So I do see the argument of people who say they like the Mac because they prefer the look of it’s case even if it isn’t a particulary good deal for price or performance. But at least be honest about that, realize that the Dell is a cheap PC which performs the same and your reasons for buying an Apple to run XP are more Aesthetic than fuctional.
“People do, on the other hand, fall in love with apple laptops. Why? Maybe it’s the care that seems to have gone into the design:
“
fibre-optic backlit keyboards, – My new IBM has that.
light sensing screens, – OK, doesn’t have that.
motion sensor hard drive protection – Just about every notebook has that now.
mag-safe power cord – OK might take month or two for that to appear on PCs, once Apple gets the “bursting into flames” problem solved.
Brushed aluminum casing, My dell only has a painted magnesium/plastic casing, my IBM a quite nice hard black coating on it’s magnesium chasis.
minimalist and beautiful design, – OK Apples industrial design is good, but everyone else is catching up. Good design just isn’t that expensive a thing to add.
thinness, OK – My 3lb IBM core Duo notebook beats Apple in the thinness, lightness stakes about half the weight and much smaller. My 2.5yr old Dell is smaller and lighter than any Apple notebook too.
slot-loading optical drives, – Nice, but I never take an optical drive on the road with me.
bluetooth – Hardly an issue now that everyone DOES have it,and any PC with USB can be retrofitted with it for $19.95
“Plus I NEVER see a 5 year old Dell notebook but I see the old clamshell iBooks and titanium powerbooks all the time.” – I don’t want an old notebook, I like that my company gets me a new one every 2-3 years. in PC and Mac terms 5 yrs ago is roughly when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
“I’m sorry, but we are going to start seeing a gradual change in the way people think about computers.”
Yep to complete commoditization. Who can’t afford a small light good looking cellphone today? Once those where a premium product. Who won’t have ipod like capability in their cellphone in 5yrs, no-one. Will all PCs start to look better and more similar. Sure. Will Apple be able to sustain it’s current pricing policy? Highly unlikely.
For $1200 I’d consider the Apple. The product seems reasonably right, the problem today is price.
Why,
In your differences comparison above, you forgot to mention the biggest selling point of buying a Mac…. OSX! That is where the other box makers can’t compete..
Soon I will be able to come home again. I switched to Windows a few years ago, because I wanted to play more games, and it was a lot cheaper for me to build and upgrade a PC than buy it was to buy a mac. I swore at that point I wouldn’t buy a mac again. Wrong…I’m still an Apple loyalist deep down, hince the two ipods and OSX Tiger for my G4 733, and my .mac account. But I will tell you this. I’ve had both my PC’s hardware fail several times, but my mac is as stable and reliable as the day I bought it, and has never failed me. I changed my ways after seeing how sweet Tiger is, and that’s where I said to myself I want a Mac again.
I look forward to the day the Intel Desktops come out. I can get rid of two computers, I will be able to edit video again, (any low cost PC editing software sucks, Premiere sucks too)still play games and there will be no loss in investment with my PC software. Can’t wait!
By the way regarding the Reuters quote up top…
“Apple hopes to draw people who want Macs, considered by many as easier to use…”
If you load Windows on a Mac it’s no longer easier to use.
Mike K,
The original premise I was responding to was that it was an advantage to run XP on the Mac and that would encorage people who would otherwise buy a Windows PC to buy a Mac and run Windows on it.
Microsoft’s been the company that’s made a series of smart business decisions throughout it’s life and defended it’s turf well.
You don’t get to own 95% of a market just by luck. You get there because 95% of customers (or more correctly the people who make the buying decisions for those people) think your product is the best one for their purposes. Not neccesarily best overall, but best blend of features, price, stability, compatibility, software availability, supportability etc.
Apple in comparison, by choosing, many years ago the closed box approach missed the opportunity to be the leader instead of Microsoft. It’s pretty clear that if 20 years ago they’d licensed their hardware designs and O/S then the PC landscape would look quite different to what it does today.
As it is with the same closed approach, there’s no way Apple will be other than a bit player in the PC marketplace. Even if they got up to 5%, 10% or 15% share, it’s not concievable that all the other players in the industry will suddenly give up, go home and leave the other 85% of the market to Apple.
Apple should get OS X out on budget priced standard PC hardware. Then things might really get interesting.
Why:
You do have compelling arguments about a Dell running Windows being a better purchase than a Mac running windows, and if that’s strictly the operating system we’re assuming is running for the sake of this argument, then yeah, I myself would have a hard time justifying the Apple frills. However, I’ll belabor the point a tad more in pointing out that while you were able to mention that laptops are starting to get a lot of the stuff the powerbooks have had for years now, not one of the manufacturers out there combined them all like Apple did. Think about the choice of a powerbook 3 years ago with all the aforementioned features and compare it to a Dell 3 years ago and I think the price difference becomes a bit more justified. The point being that Apple usually stays pretty ahead of the curve when it comes to this stuff, and who knows what we can expect to see with their new macbook non-pros. In fact, if they get out duo cores for under $1500 with 13.3″ widescreens and a few extra clever Apple only features in the same vein as magsafe then I think my argument will be quite justified based on hardware alone.
However, as it currently stands, the argument is moot as far as I’m concerned. I’m not even sure what claim you were refuting since nowhere in the article does it mention anything about running exclusively Windows on the Macbook. What made me switch away from XP was OS X and I did it at a time when I could truly care less about Apple’s industrial design. The fact of the matter was, when I realized I could get out of the box programs like Garage Band that made all the other music production software I’d been tinkering around with on my Windows box seem bloated, overcomplicated, and unintuitive by comparison, and the rest of the iLife package for free, plus work in an environment that not only feels like its ten years ahead of what Microsoft has to offer in XP, but actually is about 6 years worth of development beyond XP. For me, it’s ALL about OS X, and the whole falling in love with at first my tiny Mac Mini, and now my sleek Ferrari like iMac 20″ pretty much came later. I think that for the average person, if you CTO an HP desktop with similar specs as the iMac, add a 20″ widescreen LCD monitor, throw in media center, add the $200 worth of software needed to compare to iLife, plus add in the yearly cost of about $100 for virus protection and whatever other features (camera, bluetooth, remote, firewire, microphone, 4 button mouse, keyboard with USB hub built in, etc) the iMac has you are WELL above what you’re paying for the iMac. It’s a fairly compelling argument, I think, even if you never even boot into OSX and eliminate the savings you get on virus protection and the iLife package.
Apple’s real ace in the hole is OS X as you mention. However, I think that the stability and overall quality would start to slide to that of what XP is if Apple just started licensing it out to every random hardware manufacturer out there because that would mean that many more configurations Apple would need to throw in support for in OS X, not to mention Apple wouldn’t be able to be there for the customer on every software, OS, and hardware related issue (which for most people its weight in gold). So to me I don’t think it makes business sense for Apple to compete with MS at their own game (which you’re right about, MS plays it so well). I think that Apple really has something here with controlling the whole widget, and if any other company offered a competing all-in-one solution like Apple, say.. Google, or even MS themselves if they decided to make hardware and complete digital lifestyle packages, I would welcome them with open arms.
I’m not an Apple fanboy, but I really think they’ve got the best thing going on right now (especially in light of all the Vista delays and XP security issues… how embarrassing.. we’re talking on par with the BMW in your example catching on fire every 20,000 miles).
“We’re talking on par with the BMW in your example catching on fire every 20,000 miles).”
Not to argue with your statements on reliabilty, but you have seen the picture of the Magsafe connector which caught on fire?
Not to mention the 12″ and 15″ G4 battery recall.
Apple does in fact build notebooks, which do in fact, catch fire!
You’re not seriously comparing my analogy to a few isolated incidents are you? I think it’s important to stay on point here, I’m comparing Windows’ vast security flaws to BMW’s catching on fire, and you bring up the 1 or 2 cases where a manufacturer defect ends up frying something on the hardware. Why, Why?
Actually it was a recall of thousands upon thousands of batterys, not an “isolated incident”.
I get the spin, Well this is really the new Mac space heating and power port lighting connector.
Buy a mac because no PC has such a feature where the unit entertains you with a cheery candle like flame which eventually grows to provide toasty warm fires throughout your house.
Likewise while trying to unplug your PC, if you can’t see the power socket in the dark, just wait for the helpful locater flame to come on.
The naked flame is of course much more beautful and practical than the warmth usually given off by boring Windows PC power supplies.
After all, who doesn’t like a nice open fire, and what woman, or gay mac owner isn’t attracted to the idea of being rescued from their flaming house by burley firemen.
You see, it’s a Feature not a Problem.
Can’t wait until the PC world “catches up” with that one.
Man this discussion just went downhill.
I’ve been reading the discussion between Why and Stegg with interest. I found that the arguments were being well presented (I give Stegg the nod for sticking to the point and his more rational approach). That is, until Why somehow lost it with the “naked flame” thing. It was at that point that his true colours were revealed (“…gay mac owner…”). It seems that, as any cornered rat, he’s gotten angry and defensive to the point of offensive.
Stegg, you win… BIG TIME! I’m buying a Mac as my next computer (I don’t want to have Windows drag me into the slimy bottom as it appears to do to others).
Now you’re just not reading right, nowhere do I say ALL Mac owners were gay, as if anyone should care if they were…
Now if I’d said that ALL Mac owners might like to be rescued from their house by burly firemen, then somone might take offense at that. But I only said the gay ones might.
There are obviously 5 categories (perhaps more if you want to get technical)
1) Straight Male Mac owners
2) Gay Male Mac owners
3) Straight Female Mac owners
4) Lesbian Female Mac owners
5) Various forms of Bisexual Mac owners.
Categories 2) and 3) are often attracted to Burly firemen, as are, depending on thier exact preferences some members of Category 5).
Category 4) if the play the Femme in a relationshipp are often attracted to Burly firewomen.
Gorden, Stegg Sorry if you’re now sitting at home trying to get the idea of being rescued by Burly firemen out of your head, either because you’re a straight male and are now having trouble with latent homosexual fantasies, or are female/gay/bisexual/lesbian and firemen/women just don’t appeal to you.
Gordon, to read the post as you did and to respond as you did says more about your attitude towards homosexuality than anything else. Slimy Bottom, because the word Gay is used in a post, c’mon what kind of redneck are you?
so guys there is a good thing about this because we can have the power of the mac and then for gamers ( like me) we can use the best operating system FOR GAMES
so Mr.why are you a total pc freek because you sure sound lke it and you dont mention one little good thing about the os o and Pcs last only about 1 year until threre out dated and the mac lasts about 3 years… so 1200 time three
o i own 1 pc that i use about 3 days a week but past that i Use a mac
“Pcs last only about 1 year until threre out dated and the mac lasts about 3 years… so 1200 time three”
Yes, I heard that Apple was using a special version of the Pentium processor which gets faster over time, where Dell just use the standard version which stays the same speed as when you purchased it.
You can’t be serious in thinking that the two machines with identical hardware won’t become outdated at the same rate, can you?
How do you guys take a comical post about a small problem and get all offended by it? This is the internet fellas….
Why hasn’t chosen a preference or said ‘PCs are teh fastarrr!” or anything along those lines. All he said was that the hardware was the same(which we all know) and that the things the extra cost goes to is the overall cosmetic things, OSX, and better tech support(if you care about that). Add in the fact that if you had a PC with the same hardware you could run OSX and then you’re only brought back once again to the fit and finish difference.
I thought the image of burley firemen climbing through the window was pretty funny. (not too mention hot….)
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
PS-email master…the power of the mac and the power of the pc should be the same if not greater for the pc. If you cut down on some resources you can get the pc using about 100mb of ram at idle and I believe OSX uses quite a bit more. Unless your talking about the power of the OS.
Plus he forgot to add the isight camera to the price of the PC and the ability to run dual monitors, plus his PC can only run one OS whereas Intel Macs can run both.
His hatred towards macs and mac users are caused by his dire financial situation, we should feel sorry for him since he can’t afford a Mac and obviously never will be able to, it must be pretty sad to live in poverty and only able to afford a PC with Windows.
ya know he can buy a mini…. mac mini… one of the refurbed ones
ok i all mac and everyting but you actually have to try them out NOT IN A DEMO and actually the dell ( i know it kills me to say it) that was… faster
how do i know this a went to apple yeterday to meet up with one of our friends and he had both of them so i askd and also cause i work there awsome place.
“isight camera to the price of the PC and the ability to run dual monitors”
When did you last look at a PC? Almost every notebook shipped in the last few years has a chipset capable of dual monitor uasge with different data on the external and internal display. and the Mac has the same capability. No win there.
Webcams cost $14.95 and up.
So add $14.95 to the price, but remember the Dell came with a free modem which is about a $50 option on the Apple.
Give up on the idea that the Mac is “better value” You may prefer it for other reasons, but nobody can say with a straight face that the hardware is better value than a Dell for what you get.
“PC can only run one OS whereas Intel Macs can run both.”
Reminds me of the Blues Brothers quote “We got both kinds of music here, Country AND Western”
Well I can assure you there are more than two operating systems in the world, and my PCs can run many of them.
And as for hatred towards Macs and Mac users, where do you get that? I already said I’d buy one for the right price.
If hatred can be implied from pointing out that a Mac isn’t the cheapest PC in the world, and that you pay an $800-$1200 premium for OS X (A premium many have said they’ll gladly pay) I guess you’ll find that most of the world hates you. Back off on whatever you’re on, you’ll probably become a little less paranoid.
And if I hate Apple products, I better just go and run over my iPod (Crunching sounds in distance)
I feel better now…
Why says “You don’t get to own 95% of a market just by luck.”
This is always a widely mis-interpreted comparison.. You can’t compare Apple vs. Microsoft in marketshare because they are different business..
Yes, both companies make operating systems for computers, BUT, Apple is a hardware company first, software second. Microsoft is strictly software. The OEM vendors that compromise Microsofts 90% software marketshare is very long.. Dell, Sony, Hp, Compaq, Gateway, etc. etc.. Apart from Dell, with a 16% marketshare, the majority of hardware vendors that support Windows only have single digit piece of the marketshare pie, just like Apple.
So when you break it down, Apple is not such a small player in the hardware business.. Considering that up until now Apple computers have strictly been running Mac OS, 4% is a pretty respectable number.. With Boot Camp, that number will easily double in 1-2 years..
Why says, “Webcams cost $14.95 and up.”
The webcams that cost $14.95 are junk, iSight caliber webcams are easily in the $89.95-$119.95 range.
Why says, “Give up on the idea that the Mac is “better value”:
Wrong, You should give up on the idea that a $1200 iMac is comparable to a bargin bin $400 PC.. There simply is no comparison.. Apple is about quality, not commodity… They will never be the cheapest, but they are becoming more and more competitive.. With the iMacs design, feature set, included software package, dual-boot capabilities, and duo-core processor, it is a far better value than any comparably equipped Dell you will ever find….It is also very competitively priced..
There will always be cheaper PC’s available, but cheap does not equal value.
BTW.. Mac mini’s start at $599…
Man, Why…
You take yourself so seriously. Good travels on your road to heart disease.
Mike K
If you think it’s better value, I’m sure Steve Jobs is very happy. Apple have worked hard to create that impression, and at least with certain consumers, been quite sucessful. All power to them. To find a way to take what is after all a commodity product and differentiate it in the minds of consumers is a very big achievement for a marketing team.
Even if a good webcame were $100, it still wouldn’t erase the price difference.
I’m not sure why you thing the Core Duo, or dual booting and the ability to run other operating systems is unique to the Mac, the system I quoted was not a $400 Dell, it was a $1200 Dell and it matched the Apple feature for feature. (Well the Dell had twice as much video memory and a modem, and the Apple had a built in camera but I regard these as minor differences, so not much basis for a price argument unless you value that built in webcam at $800).
Between them HP, DELL and Lenovo have about 40% share. And other vendors have the rest. That diversity and vibrancy and competition in the PC market is good for it. It produces parts for people who want to build their own machines, low end PCs for those on a budget, high end PCs for those who value performance, style and/or service over price and everything in between.
Can I get a 3.2 pound core Duo based Mac? No but Lenovo will sell me one. A built in webcam if I wanted one? Yes, Sony did that first. A big, powerful but heavy workstation class laptop? Sure. The PC customer has thousands of possible hardware choices, all in a commodity market which keeps prices reasonable even for the high end stuff.
Comparing Microsoft’s software business and Apple’s software business is valid. Microsoft has huge market share, and Apple a tiny one.
Whatever way you slice and dice that it’s not good for Apple. Producing an app which 2% of the PC marketplace ends up using is worth about as much revenue to a company as producing one that 50% of the Mac community uses.
Talk to any marketing person and see what’s easier, selling to 2% of a potential market or to 50% of a potential market.
And when it comes to profit, because software development involves fixed up front cost amortized over the number of units shipped, there’s no question as to which market a strong, capable company should focus on.
Interestingly the one reason to focus on a Mac is that competition is less. If you don’t have the resources to build an app which competes with the big boys in the PC arena, move over to the Mac where the same competition doesn’t bother to play. The second reason is if your Mac app drops out of your PC development efforts at little extra cost.
Apple is the Betamax of the O/S market. Some argue it’s better technology. But for most it’s not different enough technology that it makes a difference to most customers, or jumps the price gap.
And the thing that makes a platform viable is the software not the hardware, and Apple just gave the world’s software vendors a way to address Mac customers without the time and expense of building a Mac specific version of their software.
Apple releasing commodity Intel hardware has obviously allowed Apple to close the performance gap between Mac notebooks and PC notebooks, and no doubt done wonderful things for Apple’s margins.
After all we just noted they can sell about the same PC for about twice the price Dell gets. And lets not fool ourselves thinking that the small differences between the machines means that the Mac costs Apple more to build and accounts for the price difference. That’s partially true but for the most part that’s using a stong brand to generate pure profit! That’s great for Apple!
But now Apple’s on Intel, a good thing for Mac buyers but a bad thing for Apple is that people can directly compare specs, price shop the hardware and compare Apples with Apples and Dells and HPs, and that will no doubt cause downward pressure on Apple’s hardware prices.
I love the people who argue that Macs are expensive and bad value based on the fact that you can buy cheap pc’s for under $500. Guess what? Those cheap PC’s aren’t as good quality as a Mac. Those cheap PC’s aren’t as good as high end PC’s. No-one looks at a $2000+ Dell and says that they’re bad in comparison to a $500 Dell. They’re different products in different brackets.
Webcams can be bought for $14.95 and up. Fine but they’re not the same. If they were then every person in the world would only buy the cheap one.
It’s just a totally stupid comparison.
“I love the people who argue that Macs are expensive and bad value based on the fact that you can buy cheap pc’s for under $500.”
No, I am arguing that you can buy an equivalent quality Dell for $1200, and you can also buy a much cheaper Dell which will be just as robust and reliable, although perhaps not as nice or as fast from $499 and up.
The problem I’m pointing out is that Apple doesn’t have the notebook product in the $499 bracket for those who want a Mac but don’t want to pay a huge price premium for it because they have something else they’d rather do with the extra $800-$1500.
Sure there are consumers for whom price doesnt matter. Even those consumers want to get value for what they pay. Nobody pays two or three times the list price for a car just because they can.
Why, you are wrong on so many fundamental levels it’s frightening..
You seem to have a hard time understanding the value of a Mac.. Let me explain… Okay, so you have a comparably equipped iMac and Dell, both costs roughly $1200 bucks.. Hardware aside let’s take a look at what the iMac has over the Dell and talk about value:
1. Design. You can argue till your blue, but Apple’s award winning designs are the best in the industry. From the thinnest laptop enclosures with no visible screws (MacBook), to the smallest, lightweight form factor of it’s desktop mini, to the all in one design with the cpu and components behind the display of the iMac. Critics and consumers agree, Apple’s attention to detail in design simply can’t be matched.. But considering design is subjective and not a selling point to some, I’ll go on..
2. Security. Mac OSX has been free of malware and virus attacks. Whether this will change in the future is unknown, but to date, there have been over 100,000 security threats to the Windows platform, many of which cause severe damage to data and loss of productivity to businesses and consumers on a daily basis. In contrast, there are less than five (5) proof of concept exploits in Mac OSX, none of which have caused any real world damage. Never mind the additional several hundred dollars the average Dell user will spend on anti-virus solutions, the time required to maintain and admin the average Windows PC is substantial compared to a Mac running OSX. How valuable is your time and data? The (current) security benefit of an OSX machine is PRICELESS.
3. iLife. Apple’s award winning software suite with photo and music management, movie editing, music creation, dvd authoring, and simple web page creation is included free with any Mac. It would cost hundreds of dollars to purchase software equivalents for a pc. And as PC magazine and dozens of critics agree, none of the purchased PC equivalents even come close to matching iLife’s integration and ease of use. Add to that Apple’s included apps like Mail, Addresbook, iCal and (current) Mac only features like Dashboard, Expose and Spotlight and it is impossible to argue that the software included with a Dell running Windows is a better value.
4. Boot Camp. A Mac is the only computer in the world that can dual boot OSX and Windows. Need I say more? Are you still not getting why a $1200 iMac is more valuable than a $1200 (or less,) comparably equipped Dell? A Mac will do everything that a PC will do, plus all of the above. THAT”S CALLED VALUE.
Why says, “Comparing Microsoft’s software business and Apple’s software business is valid. Microsoft has huge market share, and Apple a tiny one.”
WRONG. Microsoft and Apple have a completely different business model.. Apple’s uniquness is that it is technically neither a hardware or a software company, they are a combination of both, a “systems” company if you will.. Apple is a complete user experience, Mac AND OSX, iPod AND iTunes. Microsoft is strictly a software company..
Microsofts product is a software operating system that sells for between $100-$300. Apple’s product is a hardware and software system that sells for between $599-$2999. Very different indeed..
I can assure you that if Microsoft sold hardware and software systems as Apple does, they would not have a 90% marketshare… I can also assure you that if Apple licensed it’s operating system to OEM vendors as Microsoft does, their OSX marketshare would be significantly more than 4%.
The bottom line is that THEY DON’T. They are different business models with different philosophies and can’t be compared in an Apples to Apples (no pun intended) fashion.
Why says ” Apple releasing commodity Intel hardware has obviously allowed Apple to close the performance gap between Mac notebooks and PC notebooks, and no doubt done wonderful things for Apple’s margins.”
HUGE WRONG. Do you mean the Intel core duo chips that cost 36% more than the previous generation PPC G4 chips? Or do you mean the new 13″ widescreen displays that will be in the new Macbooks that cost an additional $15 per unit than the previous 14″ iBook display. Or do you mean the $799 core-duo Mac mini that has the lowest profit margin of any computer that Apple has ever sold?
Of course, Apple could have stuffed their laptops and base model Mac minis with cheaper less-powerful processors and components and added $ to the profit margins, but again… Apple is not in the commodity business.
Mike K
Firstly both don’t cost $1200 bucks. The Dell costs $800-1200 bucks. The Mac costs $2000 bucks.
So that’s why there is a discussion on value.
I don’t think we’d be arguing too much if we were comparing a $1200 mac with a $1200 Dell and they were the same in all major specs.
1) I don’t know if you’ve looked around recently, but a 1″ thick 5.6 pound notebook just isnt that special any more. My current notebook is 0.8″ thick, has a Core Duo processor and weighs 3.2 pounds. Tell me again how a Mac is a more elegant hardware design with a straight face.
2) A commonly put forward justification which is just plain wrong. Buy Norton Antivirus, install it, stop worrying, Don’t use antivirus software and yes you will be in a world of pain. There is a Price on that Data security, $29.95/yr…
“Mac OSX has been free of malware and virus attacks. Whether this will change in the future is unknown,”
Let me make the prediction for you now. It is known. It will change.
3)We covered the software argument earlier with the fact that anyone who has Office at work can use it at home free, and that Microsoft does bundle most of those other utilities too.
4) it’s only called value if that feature is useful to you. If not it’s just an unneccesary expense added to the price of the unit. As I said, some people are happy, it seems to pay that $1200 premium for OS X. Most don’t seem to be.
“I can assure you that if Microsoft sold hardware and software systems as Apple does, they would not have a 90% marketshare”
Right, you’re making my point again for me. Apple’s business model is wrong, at least if they want to be in the operating systems business long term rather than just shipping Windows on their PCs.
“Apple could have stuffed their laptops and base model Mac minis with cheaper less-powerful processors and components and added $ to the profit margins, but again… Apple is not in the commodity business.”
Wrong again, x86 processors and systems built on them are a commodity. Apples now use commodity components across the board. Do you really think it costs Apple too much more to have an x86 motherboard built than it costs Dell? Do you really think different, special, Apple only Intel processors and hard disks and LCDs and memory go into these machines? Apple will also be betting on the rapid price drops of all components. PowerPC was at a dead end for notebooks. Apple had to finally think different and move to Intel.
Why,
Again, you skipped over all the pertinent arguments I made as to why a Mac is a better value and went straight to a hardware comparison while using a $800 starting point for a dell and an exagerated $2000 price tag of a top tier iMac which is actually $1699 for the 20″ model. I suppose the saying is true “Ignorance is Bliss.”
see here for iMac prices :http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wo/0.RSLID?mco=1570F73B&nclm=iMac
Mac mini’s start at $599, iMacs start at $1299, MacBook laptops will reportedly start at $999 and MacBook Pros start at $1999.
If you compare any of these Macs with an EQUALLY EQUIPPED Dell, I can guarantee that you will find all of Apple’s prices are within a $100 range.. Let me clarify, I AM NOT SAYING that Apple is the cheapest you can find. I am saying that Apple is competitively priced and for all of my previous listed reasons a BETTER VALUE.
OSX, iLIfe, Award winning form-factors and design features, better software integration, OSX Security, lower total cost of ownership, significantly less user admin time required, significantly higher re-sale value, Boot Camp, and competive pricing to a comparably equipped PC all add up to one conclusion that only an idiot could ignore… MACS ARE A FAR BETTER TOTAL VALUE.
Regarding security, Why says “Let me make the prediction for you now. It is known. It will change.”
That is pure speculation.. Based on facts, there are over 100,000 documented exploits to the Windows platform that have cost millions of dollars and countless hours, loss of productivity, loss of data, and frustration for corporations and home consumers.
For five years and counting, there have been ZERO exploits that have affected OSX.
Are you really so hard-headed to ignore the value of this?
Why says “Right, you’re making my point again for me. Apple’s business model is wrong, at least if they want to be in the operating systems business long term rather than just shipping Windows on their PCs.”
Your fooling yourself if you actually believe this.. Apple’s growth potential is enormous, significantly moreso than any other computer manufacturer. It is really amusing that you have so much faith that Microsoft will maintain it’s dominance in the OS battle forever..
In a recent consumer survey (I will look for the link on the MDN archive,) Microsoft was rated a #2 on a scale of 1-10 (1 being the lowest) for consumer distrust and brand loyalty.. Consumers are not happy with Microsoft, they are not trusted..
I mean be realisitc, Windows is in trouble.. Vista has been in development for FIVE YEARS and just months before it is supposed to be released gets delayed again and needs to have 60% of it’s code re-written by early 2007.
We were discussing LAPTOPS.
That’s where the $800-$1200 vs $2000 is relevant.
I did compare and it is listed above, the equivalent Dell is $1200 or $800 if you accept small compromises on specs. Not the $100 you claim.
If only an idiot could ignore this, including the TCO comments, how come 96% of the world are wrong, and 4% are right. I guess almost everyone but you is an Idiot, right Mike?
But since you want to look at desktops too, here it is:
Apple $1699
20-inch widescreen LCD with 1680×1050 resolution
2.0GHz Intel Core Duo with 2MB shared L2 cache
512MB (single SO-DIMM) 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM
250GB Serial ATA hard drive
Slot-load 8x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Radeon X1600 graphics with 128MB GDDR3 memory
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0
Vs DELL model 510 $1069
20 inch screen with 1600×1200 resolution
Dual core 2.8GHz Pentium processor, 800 MHz frontside bus
1GB SDRAM (Sorry can’t drop it to 512 for Apple comparision)
250GB 7200 RPM SATA Drive
16xDVD ROM And Dual layer 16xDVD +/- RW (Sorry can’t get anything as slow as 8x or only a single drive for Apple comparison)
ATI Radeon X300 with 128MB video memory.
I’m assuming for now the better specs of the Dell (Extra memory, twice as fast DVD writer, 2nd DVD drive) make up for lack of Bluetooth/WiFi financially – but if you don’t agree, add $19.95 to my price for each of Bluetooth and WiFi.
So $100 different? really. Doesn’t seem to be so…
Yes, you do get a large separate box to place under your desk with the Dell, But you do get a smaller monitor on top of the desk.
If that’s worth $630 to have everything in one box, fine, your money…
Perhaps Apple should include a calculator app to help the likes of Mike K add up system prices…
There you go again, skip over everything except for an un-equal hardware performance configuration and then use the top tier iMac at $1699 vs. a Dell 510 with a Pentium D at $1069… Ha! Lol! Nice try buddy.
BTW. Apple does include a calculator app, they don’t however include a common sense app which apparently you are in desperate need of.
“It is really amusing that you have so much faith that Microsoft will maintain it’s dominance in the OS battle forever..”
I did’t say that, I said it wouldn’t be Apple. I do have faith that Apple won’t be that dominant OS vendor so long as Apple pursues it’s closed box policy. As I said earlier in the posts, put OS X on cheap Intel hardware, then we’ve got a horse race…
“Regarding security, Why says “Let me make the prediction for you now. It is known. It will change.”
That is pure speculation.. “
Not pure speculation, Reality. Macs are sitting there now protected only by the thought that Mac OS is invincible. And years of hacking has shown that no OS is invincible. Telling me I need to go buy a bulletproof vest is kinder compared to leaving me with the false belief that I’m invincible.
“For five years and counting, there have been ZERO exploits that have affected OSX. Are you really so hard-headed to ignore the value of this?”
There have been ZERO explots in that time on any of my personal PCs because they sit behind firewalls (software and hardware) and run antivirus software. So you are proposing that by changing to MAc OS X I would defend against a problem which doesn’t affect me. That has a value, it’s about zero dollars.
“Apple’s growth potential is enormous”
Agree, if they can get prices down its concievable they could double or even triple their market share but that’s about it. Under their current business model, they can never be the “New Microsoft” and get 90% Sorry, Reality.
People assume Microsoft has to ship Vista quickly? Why? XP’s selling just fine. You will see this pattern historically with Microsoft when they have strong competitors nipping at their heels, they tend to do things quickly (sometimes too quickly). When they don’t have strong competitors they tend to take more time and their products are better for it.
Why says ” I do have faith that Apple won’t be that dominant OS vendor so long as Apple pursues it’s closed box policy. As I said earlier in the posts, put OS X on cheap Intel hardware, then we’ve got a horse race…”
Agree with the first sentence. Strongly disagree with the second sentence. Apple’s closed box policy is the very reason they’ve survived and have been able to constantly innovate as long as they have. Apple is profitable, VERY profitable. Putting OSX on cheap intel hardware would kill every competitive advantage Apple has over the WIndows oem vendors. The only computers in the world that can run OSX and Windows… Again, Apple is a complete systems company, not a software company.
Why says “There have been ZERO explots in that time on any of my personal PCs because they sit behind firewalls (software and hardware) and run antivirus software. So you are proposing that by changing to MAc OS X I would defend against a problem which doesn’t affect me. That has a value, it’s about zero dollars.”
If you speak the truth, then you are definitely in the minority.. Even so, you are still affected with constant maintenance, system slow-downs, and anti-virus costs.
Why says “Agree, if they can get prices down its concievable they could double or even triple their market share but that’s about it. Under their current business model, they can never be the “New Microsoft” and get 90% Sorry, Reality.”
Let’s hope that Apple NEVER become the next Microsoft. Remember, Apple sells more than just a $199-$299 software license, they sell the whole system… Because of this, every one percent marketshare that Apple gains represents more than 2 billion dollars in revenue by selling complete systems.. That’s a whole helluva lot of money for an already extremely profitable company.. Makes me very happy to be an AAPL shareholder!
Why says “People assume Microsoft has to ship Vista quickly? Why? XP’s selling just fine. You will see this pattern historically with Microsoft when they have strong competitors nipping at their heels, they tend to do things quickly (sometimes too quickly). When they don’t have strong competitors they tend to take more time and their products are better for it.”
Umm… Excuse me, Did you just say SHIP VISTA QUICKLY? It’s been in development for FIVE YEARS and now 60% of it needs to be RE-WRITTEN.
Anyway, my point is going off topic, I’m not saying Apple will take over Microsoft. I’m saying Macs are hands down superior machines, and an all around BETTER VALUE.
Why: “Gordon, to read the post as you did and to respond as you did says more about your attitude towards homosexuality than anything else. Slimy Bottom, because the word Gay is used in a post, c’mon what kind of redneck are you?”
Excuse me, but you have clearly taken my statement out of context. The term “slimy bottom” was not used because you mention “gay” people. Rather, it was used because you thought that bringing up some people’s sexual predilection was appropriate in the context of the dicsussion between yourself and Stegg. I have nothing against heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual people… I am no bigot. “Slimy bottom” was used to refer to your thoughtless reasoning in so distorting the discussion, something that, from my observation, appears to happen more regularly with Windows users than Mac users.
Gordon you say:
“I am no bigot. “Slimy bottom” was used to refer to your thoughtless reasoning in so distorting the discussion, something that, from my observation, appears to happen more regularly with Windows users than Mac users.”
So you are a bigot, prejudiced against Windows users…
Oh Well thanks for that clarification.
” The only computers in the world that can run OSX and Windows… Again, Apple is a complete systems company, not a software company.”
And that’s what limits their potential.
“If you speak the truth, then you are definitely in the minority.. Even so, you are still affected with constant maintenance, system slow-downs, and anti-virus costs.”
Antivirus cost $29.95/yr hardly going to break the bank.
Constant maintenance, What maintenance? again, I dont have a problem with that, nor system slowdowns.
If it were really such a pain in the butt and OS X was such a logical alternative don’t you think corporate IT departments would be defecting in droves? Well they’re not.
“Let’s hope that Apple NEVER become the next Microsoft. … Makes me very happy to be an AAPL shareholder!”
Well really as a shareholder you should want the companies you invest in to make best use of their assets and make smart business moves. If you wouldn’t like any company to own to achieve 90%+ market share, then exactly what would you like it to do?
Ad as for smart choices, Apple moved to Intel because they realized that PowerPC was a strategic mistake (After moving to PowerPC after realizing 68k was a strategic mistake). Now the’re moving to Windows (I mean allowing Windows to run on their machines, sorry my bad, got to bring the faithful along slowly…)
“Umm… Excuse me, Did you just say SHIP VISTA QUICKLY? It’s been in development for FIVE YEARS and now 60% of it needs to be RE-WRITTEN.”
Read again, I said they really don’t have to.
“I’m saying Macs are hands down superior machines, and an all around BETTER VALUE.”
If you say so, but most of the rest of the world have voted with their wallets and see better value in Windows.
Why: So you are a bigot, prejudiced against Windows users… Oh Well thanks for that clarification.
Twist it and ignore my point how you will, I gave no opinion, I simply stated an observation.
Whys says “And that’s what limits their potential.”
Wrong, it’s the very reason they have currently have the potential and resources that they do to take back some market share gains..
Why says ” Antivirus cost $29.95/yr hardly going to break the bank.
Constant maintenance, What maintenance? again, I dont have a problem with that, nor system slowdowns.”
Hmm.. just checked pcconnection prices..
Norton Antivirus = $39.95
Norton personal firewall = $91.95
Yearly costs = $29.95
Oh yeah, a netgear hardware firewall hubs go from $99 and up..
Add those costs to your cheapo Dell…
System slowdown is inevitable running virus software.. What maintenance you ask? Ha ha ha… you’re joking right?
Why asks “If it were really such a pain in the butt and OS X was such a logical alternative don’t you think corporate IT departments would be defecting in droves?”
No for two reasons.. 1. it would mean layoffs for corporate IT depts. and 2. Apple has evolved into a consumer based comany. They are not a commodity driven company and have not been targeting the enterprise markets with low-cost bare-bones boxes ever since Jobs returned in 1997.
Why asks “If you wouldn’t like any company to own to achieve 90%+ market share, then exactly what would you like it to do? “
As a stock holder I look for a company that constantly innovates, creates new markets and revenue streams, and most importantly shows enormous growth potential… Apple is all of those things… I bought at $29 pre-split and needles to say, I’m a very happy camper..
And BTW, Apple already has a product (system) 80% marketshare with iPod/iTunes (one of it’s new revenue streams.)
Why says “Ad as for smart choices, Apple moved to Intel because they realized that PowerPC was a strategic mistake (After moving to PowerPC after realizing 68k was a strategic mistake). Now the’re moving to Windows (I mean allowing Windows to run on their machines, sorry my bad, got to bring the faithful along slowly…)”
COMPLETELY WRONG. Apple with Jobs in charge is a company that’s not afraid to take risks.. PPC was not a strategic mistake, it was the right move at the time, just as Intel is the right move at the right time now. Apple has just made the smartest choice ever by creating all applications with Universal Binaries which are processor independent.
Why says ‘Read again, I said they really don’t have to. “
I don’t have to read again, I understand what you said.. My point is that no one ever said that Vista has to ship quickly, but five years is excessive by anyones standards… Especially when it was originally promised in late 2003. It’s now 2006 and again has been delayed until 2007 and a 60% re-write is in order..
Vista is a clear sign that Microsoft is in decay.. They are still a behemoth of a company and won’t be going anywhere soon, but the signs are all pointing to a company in trouble.. Management is in disarray, empolyees are un-happy, consumer satisafaction, trust and brand loyalty are at an all time low and their flagship product is dropping features like flies and is more than three years late..
Why says “If you say so, but most of the rest of the world have voted with their wallets and see better value in Windows.”
Actually, most of the rest of the world hasn’t voted at all, they use Windows because that’s all they know… But trust me, that’s changing fast.. Apple awarness is up, BiG TIME!
Take a look at this paragraph from an Appleinsider article today:
“The popularity of Apple Computer’s Safari Web browser continues grow at a noticeable pace this year, with recent market share figures pointing to an over 75 percent increase in usage over the past twelve months. During the same time period, Microsoft’s Internet Explorer saw its market share slip over 3 percent.”
Proof is in the numbers and they are all going up.
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1677
“Wrong, it’s the very reason they have currently have the potential and resources that they do to take back some market share gains..”
Can’t you agree with my position that they can make significant gains but still have a limited potential. The two are not mutually exclusive.
“Norton Antivirus = $39.95”
$59.95 for 2 yr subscription, straight from the Norton site, or about $29.95/yr
“Norton personal firewall = $91.95”
No-one really needs this the Windows built in one actually works pretty well.
“Oh yeah, a netgear hardware firewall hubs go from $99 and up..”
So Don’t buy a netgear, buy a $37.99 one from Linksys, yes you can pay two or three bucks less, but I prefer Linksys. personally I’d pay the $59.95 for a wireless access point + router from Linksys, (only matching Apple product is $129, moor features sure, if that’s what you want from your firewall) but that’s just me, you can get a wireless router for about $39.95.
“Add those costs to your cheapo Dell…”
Done, still much cheaper and you’re going to need a wireless router with your Apple anyway.
“System slowdown is inevitable running virus software..”
Only when you’re reading files, and then it might use a few percent of one of my CPUs.
“What maintenance you ask? Ha ha ha… you’re joking right?”
Nope, tell me some of the things I should be doing.
“No for two reasons.. 1. it would mean layoffs for corporate IT depts.”
Yes but they could always get jobs flying the black helicopters.
“and 2. Apple has evolved into a consumer based comany. They are not a commodity driven company and have not been targeting the enterprise markets with low-cost bare-bones boxes ever since Jobs returned in 1997.”
This was more a matter of those customers abondoning them than any strategic decision to leave them. iPod’s not a commodity product? Who are you fooling?
“And BTW, Apple already has a product (system) 80% marketshare with iPod/iTunes (one of it’s new revenue streams.)”
Look for my posts above as to what Apple’s doing right with iPods vs what it’s doing wrong with PCs.
“COMPLETELY WRONG. Apple with Jobs in charge is a company that’s not afraid to take risks.. PPC was not a strategic mistake, it was the right move at the time, just as Intel is the right move at the right time now.”
Forcing big costs on your software development is never a smart thing. Apple lost a lot of developers with the 68k->PPC switch and will loose more with the PPC->Intel switch especially now that vendors are able to target Mac and PC customers with the same software.
“Apple has just made the smartest choice ever by creating all applications with Universal Binaries which are processor independent.”
Wow, my hands are so big man, look, my hands are sooooo big, Hey I’ve got an idea lets make independent binaries, the developers will love testing on two platforms, wow man do you see the colors…
Why says “If you say so, but most of the rest of the world have voted with their wallets and see better value in Windows.”
Yep, corporate IT departments are so dumb that they don’t even know that Apple exists. People who wander into Comp USA are so blind that they just walk past the Apple displays, pick up a PC and walk out, yep. you might be right, or you might be reality challenged. I wonder which. I think most consumers and IT departments know about Apple and choose accordingly.
“The popularity of Apple Computer’s Safari Web browser continues grow at a noticeable pace this year, with recent market share figures pointing to an over 75 percent increase in usage over the past twelve months. During the same time period, Microsoft’s Internet Explorer saw its market share slip over 3 percent.”
OK, read that chart again, it said Safari share went up 0.75% when you quote the statistics that way it’s hardly impressive.
In the same time Firefox got more new customers than Apple’s entire browser share.
“Twist it and ignore my point how you will, I gave no opinion, I simply stated an observation.”
Get real.
Why asks “Can’t you agree with my position that they can make significant gains but still have a limited potential. “
No, because what you consider potential for Apple (licensing OSX to oem vendors,) is what I consider corporate suicide for Apple. I feel confident that as long as Jobs is in command, OSX will only run on Macs.. Licensing the Mac OS is what nearly drove the company bankrupt in the mid-nineties… The first thing Jobs did when he returned as CEO was take back control of the Mac OS and vowed to never license it again..
“Done, still much cheaper and you’re going to need a wireless router with your Apple anyway.”
Assuming the average lifespan is 4 years for a computer. Anyway you look at it, you will spend in the range of $200-$400 to keep a PC protected.. ($30 x 4 years and a firewall)… $0 cost for Mac. You can deny the admin time required for updates and patches till your blue in the face, but I know the truth.
“iPod’s not a commodity product?”
No. The iPod is a huge product, but it is not a commodity product.. To this day, the iPod is still the best-designed, most intuitive and easy to use digital player avalable.. Much like the Mac and OSX.
“Apple lost a lot of developers with the 68k->PPC switch and will loose more with the PPC->Intel switch especially now that vendors are able to target Mac and PC customers with the same software.”
Umm, check your facts.. Apple currently has more developers on board and comitted to OSX than they have in their 30 year long history? Even gaming developers are jumping on board… Why? Because Macs sales are growing at 3x the rate of the rest of the PC industry and Mac marketshare is increasing.
” I think most consumers and IT departments know about Apple and choose accordingly.”
I’m sure you do, but so far, you have not come across as much of a logical thinker.. As I said, the proof is in the numbers. And the numbers show that people are switching… That’s why Mac sales are growing 3x faster than pcs.
“OK, read that chart again, it said Safari share went up 0.75% when you quote the statistics that way it’s hardly impressive.”
Actually, it’s very impressive. It’s 75% growth in a one year period.. Remember, Apple is selling more than just a $199 software license, they are selling a complete system which is significantly more profitable..
A 0.75% increase in Safari usage means more Mac users. And more Mac users means increased marketshare. And every one percent increase in Mac marketshare means 2 billion dollars in revenue.. That is very impressive indeed.
Why: “Get real.”
Go ahead… have the last word. I’m done with this.
Why asks “Can’t you agree with my position that they can make significant gains but still have a limited potential. “
OK, but taking your facts to be true:
Apple cannot license Mac OS X because doing so would be suicide.
But no single vendor is likley to achieve domination of the PC hardware marketplace, 15-20% share is exceptional.
Therefore Apple can never be a Microsoft with 90% plus market share.
Therefore Apple’s potential is limited compared to Microsoft. QED.
“Done, still much cheaper and you’re going to need a wireless router with your Apple anyway.”
Assuming the average lifespan is 4 years for a computer. Anyway you look at it, you will spend in the range of $200-$400 to keep a PC protected.. ($30 x 4 years and a firewall)…
$0 cost for Mac.
Only $0 cost for a Mac because you’re living in dreamland. And the same router protects multiple PCs, at $120 + $34.95 how do you possibly get to $200 for 4 years, much less $400? Check that calculator app. Stop pressing the PC->Apple price conversion button.
“You can deny the admin time required for updates and patches till your blue in the face, but I know the truth.”
Yes, and the truth will set you free.
Patches download quietly in the middle of the night, and automatically install themseleves. Actually I turn the auto install off since I prefer to approve them myself but still let them download. To say that the automatic patching substantially interferes with anyone’s month is just balony.
“No. The iPod is a huge product, but it is not a commodity product..To this day, the iPod is still the best-designed, most intuitive and easy to use digital player avalable.. Much like the Mac and OSX.”
You can be all those things and still be a commodity product, as the iPod is.
“I’m sure you do, but so far, you have not come across as much of a logical thinker..”
You can’t seem to grasp even the most basic business concepts, and seem somewhat distanced from reality. Those things combined probably skew your understanding of what logical thought is. Keep trying though. You might get the hang of it.
“Selling more than just a $199 software license”
Nobody pays Microsoft $199 for an OEM Windows license…
“they are selling a complete system which is significantly more profitable..”
A lot more revenue maybe, higher margins, no.
Which would you rather have, 41 billion of revenue and a 47% net margin or 13 billion of revenues and a 13% net margin.
Admittedly neither’s too bad a position to be in, but we all know, you want to be the latter company, not the former. Wouldn’t be my choice.
“That is very impressive indeed.”
Impressive until you compare it to Microsoft, Dell, or HP or Lenovo…
“Go ahead… have the last word”
Sure. here it is. In this exchange with you I felt like I was in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
Why says “Therefore Apple can never be a Microsoft with 90% plus market share. Therefore Apple’s potential is limited compared to Microsoft. QED.”
I never argued that I wanted Apple to be another Microsoft. I said Apple has enormous growth potential and that Macs are a far better value.
Why says “Only $0 cost for a Mac because you’re living in dreamland.
Actually, I am quite awake thank you.. I’ve been using Macs for 15 years and in the time have spent $0 dollars on security. I am connected to the internet 24/7 with no antivirus software, no firewall, no system slow-downs, no viruses, no spyware, no malware, no security threats, and no money spent. ZERO. NONE. ZILCH.
And the same router protects multiple PCs, at $120 + $34.95 how do you possibly get to $200 for 4 years, much less $400? Check that calculator app. Stop pressing the PC->Apple price conversion button.”
Okay, it doesn’t sound like math was your good subject… I’ll break it down for you.
Antivirus software =$39
Yearly fees $30 x 4 years = 120
Norton Personal firewall software = $99 (optional but recommended)
Firewall hub =$99
Total = $357. I quoted between $200-$400 for variances in pricing and products used.
Why says “You can be all those things and still be a commodity product, as the iPod is.”
Using the classic definition of “commodity,” you are correct. However, in the computer and tech world, commodity products have come to be known as mass-market products that use the cheapest components available with little thought to design, poor functionality for a bargain bin price.. Much like most products by Dell, Hp, and the rest.. The iPod is not those things.
Why says “You can’t seem to grasp even the most basic business concepts”
Do you mean your concept that Apple should abandon their business model of selling complete systems? The very business model that affords them the ability to deliver a complete end-to-end user experience and has afforded them to consistently innovate, and has put them in a position of enormous growth opportunity? Or do you mean the concept that Apple should license OSX to oem vendors and give up one of it’s greatest advantages over the competiton so that they can sell a $129 copy of OSX so it can run on cheap Dell boxes? Yeah, that sure sounds like a good idea coming from the guy who says that OSX “adds no value” to a Mac. Ha. ha. lol.. You’re funny!
Why says “Nobody pays Microsoft $199 for an OEM Windows license..”
What crack are you on buddy? Anyone who buys a copy of Windows is buying a license to run the Windows software. You don’t actually own the rights to Windows, you own the rights to use it. That’s called a license.
Why says “A lot more revenue maybe, higher margins, no”
Again, Apple is a different business model than Microsoft. Stop comparing them. Apple has extremely respectable profit margins.
Why says “In the same time Firefox got more new customers than Apple’s entire browser share.”
What exactly do you mean by customers? Every Safari user is an Apple customer because it means that a Mac was sold.. However, every Firefox user is not a customer, it just means they downloaded a free browser.
Why says “Impressive until you compare it to Microsoft, Dell, or HP or Lenovo…”
Actually it’s more impressive than the above mentioned. For browsers, Apple is up nearly one point, while Microsfot is down three. For revenue, Mac sales are growing 3x faster than Dell, HP and Lenovo… As I said, very impressive indeed!
“I am connected to the internet 24/7 with no antivirus software, no firewall, “
it is not smart to run systems on the internet that way, even if you truly beleive their OS is secure, because history has shown that no OS is secure in the long run. The concept of firewall plus OS security is called defense in depth and should be implemented by anyone even if they believe their OS is bulletproof.
“Antivirus software =$39”
That’s covered in the $30 a year, How many times do I have to say it.
Yearly fees $30 x 4 years = 120
“Norton Personal firewall software = $99 “
As I said, not required, not even recommended.
“Firewall hub =$99”
Why Why Why go for the expensive solution rather than the better $39.95 solution. Trained to do so by years of Apple purchsaing I guess. Personally for my money a Cisco/Linksys router is better than a Belkin.
“Using the classic definition of “commodity,” you are correct.”
Oh Finally got through on that…
“Do you mean your concept that Apple should abandon their business model of selling complete systems? The very business model that affords them the ability to deliver a complete end-to-end user experience and has afforded them to consistently innovate, and has put them in a position of enormous growth opportunity?”
Chuckle. After 30 or so years of being in business Apple is finally “poised for a great growth opportunity”. Is that now, or 30 years from now? After 30 or so years in business Microsoft dominates it’s market and it’s CEO is the world’s richest man who is not a head of state. Gee I wonder who were the better innovators and strategic geniuses, at least measured by what the market as a whole thought.
“Why says “Nobody pays Microsoft $199 for an OEM Windows license.. What crack are you on buddy?”
Reality Crack. The kind of crack that lets me know when I was a system builder we paid much less than $199. You surely don’t think that $199 of each $299 Dell is going to Microsoft. OEMs don’t pay retail for the product. Well, clearly you think do. That just shows a complete lack of any understanding of the way any sort of business works, y’know you buy/build stuff for less then the price you sell it for, when you’re a huge OEM customer, you don’t pay anywhere near retail for your O/S…
“respectable profit margins.”
Apples are respectible. I said that. Microsoft’s are outrageously high. I know which I prefer.
“Mac sales are growing 3x faster than Dell, HP and Lenovo… As I said, very impressive indeed!”
Yes, if you calculate in terms of growth as a percentage of existing market share, you get a big number. If you calculate it in absolute terms, not so impressive. Dell looses/gains a point or two without even blinking.
When you start low, the only place to go is up… Another basic business concept. When you have tiny share, large growth is easy, but it tapers off and stops. I don’t disagree that Apple can grow, said that lots in the preceeding posts. Can they dominate with their current strategy? Never. you seem to be saying that’s fine with you, so sounds like we fundimentally agree.
And finally:
Who in their right mind would rather be the 4% company that got 1% more share rather than the 90% company that lost 3%, and that only to a Free browser, not the product they actually sell. You I guess…
Before I begin yet another reply to your comments in which you turn everything into a “but Microsoft has more money and a 90% marketshare” type of response, Can I please make one thing clear?
I DON’T DENY that MS makes more money and has a 90% marketshare! It hasn’t been the point of any of my arguments, so why do you keep coming back to it?
So back to it….
Why says “That’s covered in the $30 a year, How many times do I have to say it.”
Forgive me then, I suppose I am not seasoned as you in knowing the fees associated with providing security for a poorly designed operating system with more holes than a slice of swiss cheese.. But as I said, I quoted between $200-400 based on variances in pricing and products used.. According to you, a baseline price would be appx $160… It could also easily be double that.
Why asks “You surely don’t think that $199 of each $299 Dell is going to Microsoft. “
Absolutely not.. I understand the concept of retail and wholesale, I was simply quoting the retail price as a consumer… But you are missing the whole point of my original statement.. I was saying that 75% growth in a one year period is very impressive. Even more so considering that Apple is selling a complete system which costs between $600-$3000, siginificantly more than a retail $199 XP pack.
Why says “Yes, if you calculate in terms of growth as a percentage of existing market share”
That’s the only way there is to calculate growth.. Where you started divided by where you’re at now equals percentage of growth.
Why says “Dell looses/gains a point or two without even blinking.
You really are on crack. Dell has the largest piece of the pie of any Windows vendor with a 16% marketshare. They’d do a hell of a lot more than blink if they lose a point of two. Wait, let me re-phrase, I mean WHEN they lose a point or two.. Thanks to Apple, when is coming soon!
“I DON’T DENY that MS makes more money and has a 90% marketshare! It hasn’t been the point of any of my arguments, so why do you keep coming back to it?”
Only because you seem to think making less money and having less market share and having lower margins is a GOOD thing.
“Forgive me then, I suppose I am not seasoned as you in knowing the fees associated with providing security”
OK, Finally on that one.
“I was saying that 75% growth in a one year period is very impressive. Even more so considering that Apple is selling a complete system which costs between $600-$3000”
Ok lets just say for a minute that Apple and Microsoft make that whole amount, which we accept that they don’t, so please nobody argue with that, and use their company wide margins which are not also exact for each product line so lets not argue with that either. Even if you mess with any of those numbers a bit, doesn’t change the basic premise.
Microsoft has $199*.47=$93
Apple has $600*.13=$78
Apple has more revenue, less profit.
Or $3000*.13=$390
15 times the revenue, only 4 times the profit.
Again a lot less impressive than the difference in raw numbers would suggest.
“That’s the only way there is to calculate growth.. “
My point is that large growth from companies with small market share is not as impressive as the same percentage growth from a company with large market share. It’s much easier for Apple to pick up another 1% of the whole market than for Dell to pick up another 5% of the whole market. In all cases the growth rate would be about the same, but as you get bigger maintaining that same growth rate becomes more and more difficult.
“Why says “Dell looses/gains a point or two without even blinking.”
To clarify my point on Dell was that they can gain or loose a few points in the market without fundimentally changing their strategy in any way, not that they don’t celebrate when they gain and get pissed off when they loose.
Gartner puts Dell at 16.5% share, IDC at 18.1% both with a half percent or so decline since last year.
If you split the difference between IDC and Gartner and say 55 million units total were shipped, and take Apple’s own number of 1.11 million macs shipped, then Apple sold about 2% of the PCs (In unit terms) that were sold in this quarter just gone. It’s always DANGEROUS to look at a single quarter, but also sometimes instructive.
So Apple themselves say they sold 4% more computers this quarter compared to same quarter last year.
And putting that in industry terms, using the numbers above, if the industry grew 13% and Apple grew 4%, then Apple actually lost 0.2% share of the total market, or a 10% decline in share from where they were this quarter last year.
Yes your unit sales can go up yet market share go down.
People are too stubborn…
The best antivirus for the normal consumer = AVG
It’s free, uses barely any resources, and runs almost like nothing is even there.
http://free.grisoft.com/doc/1
Even if you JUST ran that and no firewall(aside from maybe one in your router because most people have routers nowadays) you would be completely fine.
All PC problems come down to advertising. XP runs on over 90% of computers. All the hackers see that and that is their goal is to inflict the most damage, therefore making a virus for OSX is futile anyways. All the thousands of companies looking to make money also take the bigger market and make crappy programs ridden with spyware and advertising crap. If you actually notice the fact that some software and ‘tools’ are made with a main goal of money instead of safety, which 98% of people who use email know about due to limitless spamming, then you would think….hmm I should think about this and pick the programs that don’t have all that crap in it. People are lazy though and don’t like to do any research. They see that Norton comes with their computer and say hey it must work so i’ll just buy it.
Anyways, this is ridiculous, this argument will go back and forth without many valid facts by people claiming Apple has a stronger business model by limiting themselves to 5% of the market share. Sure they’ll remain the safest OS but until they reach over 30% market share or everyone uses them in corporate networking, hackers won’t have any incentive to even try and viruses for them.
I can tell you for sure that I would buy OSX if it was released with full backing by Apple for any x86 machine. Until then I’ll just be using my $200 intel machine for OSX because I’ve got cars and other fun stuff to spend the other $1600 on.
I got converted last summer with just using the bottom of the line macmini(256 ram.. 32meg radeon), only thing i miss on the mac is games
as for the OS, i can only say i’m more familiar with windows but that doesn’t mean i like it more, I’m willing to learn to use osx
oh yeah, i know 3 of my friends hopped over to macs recently and they’ve been using windows since they first learned how to use 3.1
i’m seeing this windows on intel macs thing as something for people who are on the fence on choosing between oses and i don’t really see why anyone would go back to strictly windows unless they’re using computers for some purpose Apple totally ignored on their macos
I like how you insult the very people you’re trying to get to switch. You shouldn’t call people “stupid.” Unbelievable.
What a stupid Macfag this Stevejack is.
Talk about the switch… How many of grown up with apple/mac as the first ever computer in our schools days… and yet when it time to buy one for our own use; it’s always the PC… Good job stevebo! all your lies are nothing but feebles way of trying your best to get your point out of how your os is suposedly superior is nothing but worthless pathetic nonesense. What ever happens to those idiotic switching advertising??? I guest once they realize the true of which side doing the most switching… time to put your head between your legs again once the ipod fad fadding away.