“Your friendly gadget columnist looks at a piece of hardware that make things easier in that corner of the high-tech universe where the Mac and PC meet,” Eric Convey writes for The Boston Herald. “The very notion of combining the two would have seemed odd just a couple of years ago, but then Mac released its first small unit in a few years that came without a screen attached. The Mac mini is a beautiful little white box that sells for as little as $500. Apple calls it ‘the most affordable Mac ever,’ and it’s a claim that’s hard to argue with,” Eric Convey writes for The Boston Herald.
Convey writes, “What if you could put a Mac mini next to a small Windows desktop computer and let them share a keyboard, mouse and monitor? Enter the Iogear switch. Hooking up the MiniView Extreme Multimedia KVMP Switch was a breeze… Paired with a Mac mini, it takes up a tiny corner of a desktop. The result is the ability to use the PC for those things PCs do best, and a Mac for those myriad things Macs do best. And with the Mac, you have a backup machine in case a virus takes out the Windows box.”
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: Someone, anyone, please remind us again what it is that Windows PCs do best vs. Macs? Almost all of the time, in our experience, people run Windows-only software because lazy, short-sighted developers (who can’t tell market share from installed base or ATMs/cash registers/dumb terminals from actual personal computers used by actual people who actually buy software) haven’t bothered to create Mac versions. Microsoft seems rather happy to continue making and updating Office for Mac OS X, so there must be money to be made in Mac software. Isn’t it always some external factor that forces people to Windows, not some magic offered by Windows itself?
The reasons for using a Windows PC isn’t that the Mac couldn’t do what Windows can, it’s that the Mac simply isn’t being allowed to do certain things.
Some reasons we’ve heard for using Windows over a Mac:
• Our 10-year-old piece of Windows-only (or DOS) software is still being used over in Accounting (we save $139 annually doing it this way)
• That weird art guy’s 7-year-old large format printer doesn’t have Mac OS X drivers (we’d buy him a new one, but he’s named it “Morty” and he pets it while it prints)
• We already know computers are frustrating, difficult and break frequently. Therefore, we don’t want to learn whole new computer / can’t imagine a pleasant computing experience (the real genius of Microsoft)
• Yahoo can’t seem to figure out how to make their online games offer the same features on Macs as they do on Windows PCs
• This is what we’ve always done
• AutoCAD
• I thought it was cheaper
• We work for an anti-virus company
• Outlook. If Microsoft would only make Outlook for the Mac (Anyone wonder why they don’t?)
• Uh, duh, we’re virus and worm writers, dudes
• I like to tinker endlessly
• Mac OS X doesn’t work for build-it-yourself PC hobbyists
• Dell tells us they’re giving us us a “primo” deal
• I suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, with a touch of Cognitive Dissonance
• We work for Microsoft
• We run a Mom & Pop computer shop specializing in selling white box Windows PCs that we know will get infected with spyware, viruses and malware that our customers will repeatedly pay us to “clean.”
• Games. If only games came out on Mac at the same time as Windows games
• We can’t stand clean, modern, award-winning industrial design
• My buddies and I, um, “share” software, so we all need to use Windows. That’s legal right?
• Etc.
What inherent advantages does Windows have over Mac OS X? Aren’t all of reasons to go with Windows based on external factors, such as those described above? If you took a Mac OX machine and a Windows XP PC from today back to 1970, showed people what they can do with the computers, how to use them, and then asked them to pick which platform they would like their country to use to build and base a technology economy upon, which one do you think they’d choose?
Related MacDailyNews articles:
Piper Jaffray: Apple Computer primed for continued market share gains – July 19, 2005
Gartner: Apple grows shipments 31 percent in Q2 2005, moves from 5th to 4th in U.S. market share – July 18, 2005
IDC: Apple gains U.S. market share at double overall market rate, up to 4.5 percent for Q2 2005 – July 18, 2005
16-percent of computer users are unaffected by viruses, malware because they use Apple Macs – June 15, 2005
Survey shows Apple Macs owned by nearly 10 percent of US small and medium-sized businesses – February 17, 2005
More people use Apple Macs than you think; 8-12 percent of homes use Macs – March 31, 2004
10 percent of computer users use a Mac; 3 percent is Mac’s approximate quarterly market share – February 10, 2004
Syracuse Post-Standard: 3 percent is a false stat; Mac holds ’10 to 12 percent of the market for PCs – August 27, 2003
crash..?
“people run Windows-only software because lazy developers haven’t bothered to create Mac versions”
Darn lazy developers, put off by that miniscule market share problem…………….
No one could file patents…
OH! and MSNBC videos won’t play on a mac.
…and we all know how important it is to get your 2 minute video feed from MSNBC
you cant watch anything on mtv.com…
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on a mac that is..
Damn those lazy software developers that don’t want to make money writing software for a tiny market!
Where’s altruism when you need it most!
I’m sure these “lazy” software developers feel compelled to write software for OS X after than gentle cajole.
I would sure hate to make my software for a market of 16 million plus users.
how exactly is this thing looking on this guy’s monitor? Is the windows screen “minimized” or does he scroll off the screen and suddenly there is another OS next to the first one or what? This is very interesting to me. I have never considered this kind of setup.
I usually really like your Takes, but this one is just ridiculous.
Those aren’t external factors, those are the core factors for using Windows over OS X. It is the network effect that MS has worked so hard to create, and something that Apple has, frankly, always sucked at with their OSes. Apple got it right with the iPod and the accesory market, it is a positive feedback loop. Apple has allowed others to get rich on their platform (iPod) just like MS did with Windows. MS sold nearly EVERYONE on the ability to do anything with your PC based on the network effect, and its obvious now to some that what MS was selling is either extremely hard or impossible to achieve. There are just to many combinations for anyone, including MS, to verify works with Windows.
What fans are you going to win by criticizing software devs as lazy because the idea of 90+% of the market would allow them to make all the money they could ever need?
I am a huge Apple fan and have dropped a ton of cash on recent systems because they are great for my needs, but anyone realistically analyzing the situation knows those reasons are deal-breakers for the majority of people getting off of Windows onto OS X. And I am considering adding a Windows machine back into the environment to play games that will NEVER make it to OS X. MacTel can’t get here fast enough, and it better be able to run Windows.
Yahoo’s music and video sites don’t work on Mac either… even though they say you need to use Netscape x.x it’s not available for Mac either, so they’re S.O.L for attracting the Mac users that enjoy and purchase mass quantities of music and related merch…
Joe, I was wondering this morning when you were going to grace us with your sage wisdom.
My bank only accepts online transactions from Windoze/IE.
That’s the reason why I still need this piece of @#%&! around me.
But when the Macintel will launch, I’ll be able to run IE on a Windows partition/WINE and it will be Goodbye Microshaft.
The truth of the matter is MDN is correct. Software developers are lazy. That is the ONLY reason they don’t develop for the +25 million Mac users. It might also be because software developers hate GUI guidelines or that they discriminate against Mac users. One can never know
Sweet when one can dualboot to windows xp sp3 for games and run everything else on a real OS
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Here’s a few reasons I haven’t thrown away my Dell now that I have a Mac Mini:
It can still access the internet, so it backs up the backup, so to speak. It is essentially impossible to troubleshoot a computer issue that happens to affect your internet access without a second computer to get on the internet. A second Mac would be preferable, of course.
I still play a few games on it. Next year, I hope that games will port over to Mac faster when Intel is inside.
I need it to back up my Windows PDA. Mr. Jobs, I would drop that in a yoctosecond if you would introduce a Newton/iPod PDA.
With some forms of CD copy-protection, it’s easier to rip the CD on a Windows machine (just hold down the ALT key as it loads). Any suggestions for doing same on my Mac would be greatly appreciated.
Want to get on my mailing list MacDoctor?
I was stating the obvious, and wondering how MDN can call an entire group “lazy”. The 16 million number Jago mentioned sounds like a lot. (And actually isn’t it more? We have had that discussion several times). It apparently isn’t enough for anyone to “bother” writing mac versions of the programs I use every day. No biggee.
@ Joe:
As opposed to developing software for an audience that thinks its OK to a) share software with friends and b) thinks its OK to get software from friends.
You mustn’t forget that most Macintosh users are user/choosers – they select the machine they want and the software they want – whereas most Windows users use it because that’s what they got given by the IT department, and likewise the software.
So, if you’re prepared to work to develop a market for software that is designed to appeal to higher income, better qualified computer users, develop for Macintosh. Whereas if you just want to wack out some poorly designed, quarter-assed rubbish for people who don’t know or care about consistent interface design and 90% of whom will land up stealing your software, develop for Windows.
Looking for some evidence: how about Delicious Monster – software designed for people who enjoy a little flair, as opposed to all of the Windows systems that do the same job, but in a messy way that gives no thought to the needs of the user. Or OmniGraffle (arguably better than Visio). Or Merlin (nearly as functional as MS Project, for a fraction of the cost). Or Corriente’s Elektron WPA server.
autocad? there are a lot of mac compatible cad software in the market. what a lazy head. I use one of them. it’s much better, easier, can share autocad files, too.
It all comes down to being to cheap,lazy to learn something new that is actually easier to use, or just plain ignorance.
To our Windows-only software developer friends: You’re a bunch of lazy bastids for wanting to actually make money developing software. Why can’t you be like the rest of us and have mommy and daddy pay your way?! Huh?!
Hey, where’d you go?.. Come back! Really, I didn’t mean to insult your intelligence… Hello? Hello? Anybody there?….
good grief MDN, your attitude is just over the top.
Windows & MAC machines will have to co-exist for many years to come no matter how you slice it.
Your brand of ‘holier than thou’, is precisely the reason MAC fans are made fun of the way they are. MAC supporters can feel great about their platform – they should, it’s awesome – but until they get over themselves and become less antagonistic, they will continue to rub people the wrong way.
We have 3 windows 2000/2003 PC’s at the office.
One runs the Label printer.
The other two are servers – one runs a “Hot folder” and the other runs the “RIP” that goes with it.
The software is windows only. Why we can’t run everything off one single PC? Because they won’t give us “support” if we do.
One program forces me into the Windows world regularly: Satellite Tool Kit (STK) by Analytical Graphics (http://www.stk.com). In the satellite world there is nothing else quite like it.
It runs MUCH, MUCH too slowly (unusable really) under VPC.
I know the president/CEO of the company and a few of the top programmers. They’ve never had enough call to port it over to the Mac to even come close to making it a break even effort for them.
Thus I’m stuck with the realities of the world: not enough Mac users want to use STK consequently there is no reason for AGI to port it. Thus it will probably never show up on Macintosh.
There are other Windows only programs which I need to use, but STK is by far the biggest. Consequently I am routinely subjected to the pain of Windows.
Upload a file to an ftp site via a GUI. Right out of the box, no third-party software. Sure you can connect, sure you can download. But try bringing up the remote site in one window and the local site in another and drag the file from local to remote. Can’t do it. Not without third-party software.
“Not without third-party software.”
Windows built in IE ftp is pretty lame feature poor ftp client.
OK, now compare WS_ftp to Transmit?
Now compare FTP servers, sftp via ssl is a secure nice little UNIX standard FTP. Windows NT/2000 based ftp servers have always been sub-par in my book.
Jeff: Running IE on a Windows partition doesn’t exactly sound like “Goodbye Microshaft”.
“Windows built in IE ftp is pretty lame feature poor ftp client.”
Perhaps, but it does what I need, while Finder does not.
I don’t need server capabilities, just a simple drag and drop. But they refuse to include it.
I was able to dump WS_ftp at work with the capabilities in Windows. But with Tiger I still need to add something else. It’s inexcusable.
Well, as we all know PCs are *so* much better when it comes to games. Also great for creating bloat ware. Just look at any Microsoft product. Perhaps they are best suited for being admitted to the ER since they pick up every virus known to man kind and a few we don’t know about. The best thing is, though, you can do a half-ass job of programming and Microsoft will ship it. Slacking hass never been so much fun.
I usually enjoy the MDN take, but this time it is just silly and over the top. The decision on whether to invest time developing for the Mac is a BUSINESS decision; one could argue it’s a mistake for developers not to do it, but it is not based on “laziness.” Facts are relevant to such decisions, not ethics.
And Yahoo Messenger with Voice doesn’t work either. Yet, Yahoo does not make any distinction between OSes when enticing people to download their messaging software.
I’ve been duped a few times already (partly out of blind hope that I might have just made a mistake), only to end up with the same result…no voice capability in Yahoo Messenger for OS X, period. Unless someone can prove me wrong, I’d say it’s a lousy treatment of the Mac users by Yahoo.
Anyone wants to correct this?
Just a few that spring to mind:
– access to various websites that break with Safari, et al
– Internet banking (Mac not supported)
– Firmware updating on cell phone, modem, GPS unit, etc which don’t support Mac
– File tax return (not supported on Mac)
– Microsoft Project (the industry standard)
– Decent games
– Educational software for the children
– Home Theatre use (7.1 sound, TV playback, TIVO functionality)
– Remotely access and fix relative’s computer problems
– Driver support for various bits of modern hardware I own
– Better choice of hardware
– Video conferencing with MSN Messenger users (ie. most of the world)
– Decent performance with Mathematica (sucks on G4/G5 as not Altivec optimised)
– *affordable* performance (maybe this will change with Mactel)
I use my Mac for pretty much everything else. But there’s absolutely no room for complacency on the part of Apple or their customers.
This item lends itself to a kind of “People who know about computers choose Mac” advertising line…
ie only dumb terminals and dumb idiots choose Windows….
Great take MDN: “Isn’t it always some external factor that forces people to Windows, not some magic offered by Windows itself?”
That has to be the best summary I’ve heard yet as to why people use Windows. So simplistic and truthful. I know it applies to me (one of those “crappy” dot Not developers at work).
PCs are faster than Macs – we have both using Photoshop primarily. PCs faster.
More power for the buck with a PC.
Not a gamer, but Macs can´t compete in the huge game market.
– MS Access – yes I know, I try to use Filemaker Pro and MySQL as much as possible but MS Access is soooo useful for data manipulation and merging.
– Spotfire – scientific graphing app.
– MS Office – just prefer the PC version.
That’s it though, will run one at work alongside my Mac because I work in a PC centric company but at home? You have got to be kidding. Using IE is like pulling teeth….
– Start Menu is exceptionally handy compared to the Apple menu
– I can do all kinds of things from the right-click menu though Mac is starting to get there.
– Task Bar is better than the dock: smaller icons means I can put more on it and the program dock is more intuitive on the pc
– managing network connections is better on pc
to name a few
The Mac does some things better than a PC but to suggest that the Mac is better at everything is ridiculous.
> ie only dumb terminals and dumb idiots choose Windows….
and only ignorant bigotd use Macs
…. what a stupid statement
Owned 5 PCs for over 5 years. Never, repeat, never had a virus.
Also own Macs. Can say the same for them.
We do video work – pc is faster.
Always get a chuckle from the mac-only, chest thumping people with heads up their “hard drives” on this subject.
Apple OS is cool, but PC´s are our work horses.
What exactly do Windows PCs do better than Apple Macs?
I’m jealous of the Windows PC’s ability to run all of the latest and greatest viruses and spyware. Here are a few reasons why: Random Russian porn pop-ups, non-stop rebooting, empty bank accounts, system access denied, infecting your company, relatives, and friends, wasting system resouces, fake error messages, network shutdowns, remote takeovers, hidden keystroke recorders, downtime, billions of dollars in damage, patch after patch after patch after patch after patch after . . . . . . . . .
The majority CAN’T be that stupid, can they? : P
The writer of the article didn’t say ‘what PCs have better inherent advantages for’ he simply said ‘what PCs do best’. If what they do best is run PC-only software run by ‘lazy developers’ then that’s a perfectly legitimate reason to use them, plus all the other reasons you listed sarcastically. Nothing wrong with the article quoted, this is just another MDN hyper-attack of reactivity.
Um, Mac’s are incapable of running the most talked about, the most popular, the most often-ran software of the Windoze world: Viruses.
Get a clue MDN! Viruses are all over the news almost weekly; you can’t miss ’em. Sheesh! What a stupid question!
MDN’s take may be “silly and over the top”, but it’s dead on. There is NOTHING that a PC inherently “does better” than a Mac. It’s all just software availability and website compatibility.
Joe: I usually credit you as being one of the more thoughtful of the “opposition”, but that first post of yours was little more than a troll. Time after time, it has been proven that Mac users *are* a profitable market. Developers that don’t make their software cross-platform *are* lazy. It’s so much easier to pump out Windows (or Mac!) -only software using proprietary development tools than to write code that is easily portable.
One more thing: Some of these web services that aren’t available for Mac don’t work so well for the PC, either. CNN’s new free video, for one. It just crashed IE on my XP machine at work. And this after me being bitter at home about it not working on my Mac. I had to laugh.
– access to various websites that break with Safari, et al
– Internet banking (Mac not supported)
– File tax return (not supported on Mac)
For all, user agent spoofing is your friend.
– Decent games
I agree Windows supports more games and the support itself is better (DirectX vs OpenGL), but there are plenty of entertaining Mac games out there. Maybe not your pet faves, but I have no trouble gaming on a mac.
– Remotely access and fix relative’s computer problems
I use APple Remote Desktop for just this and it works like a charm.
– Video conferencing with MSN Messenger users (ie. most of the world)
I use iChat+iSight for this and it works like a charm.
Bob Windsdale: “We do video work – pc is faster.”
What software do you use?
For example, put Final Cut Pro on a PowerMac G5 and it screams. Put Adobe Premiere on a PowerMac G5 and it crawls. Since you have both, I assume you use Premiere and you’re 100% correct–PCs are faster.
And, of course, why do you use Premiere over Final Cut Pro? Because you have PCs. And why do you use PCs? Because of Premiere. It’s what we like to call a “vicious cycle.”
slike: “Start Menu is exceptionally handy compared to the Apple menu”
The start menu is exceptionally handy when you have two or three applications. The start menu is exceptionally unwieldy when you have ten or eleven applications. Windows, in general, is unwieldy when you are trying to multitask.
slike: “I can do all kinds of things from the right-click menu though Mac is starting to get there.”
I can do all kinds of things from the menu bar. I have never figured this one out.
slike: “Task Bar is better than the dock: smaller icons means I can put more on it”
You are aware, aren’t you, that you can resize the dock?
slike: “managing network connections is better on pc”
This one I chuckled over. I actually agree–it is much easier to “manage” things on Windows. But part of the reason for this is that you have to manage things on Windows. Mac OS X manages these sorts of things for you.
It sort of reminds me of one of those Windows users claims that Windows has far more utility software than the Mac. It’s true, but it’s because Windows needs more utility software. It’s like saying that Macs suck because there’s no programs to manage Spyware.
Thats an easy answer:
Keep IT people employed.
Naming convention pet peeves:
It’s not MacTel. We dont call it MacBM or Macoroloa now do we?
Why call it a vPod? It’s not MusicPod now, or TunesPod, it’s iPod and it was given a function agnostic name for a reason folks.
I really don’t have a problem with the fact that there are specialized applications that run only on the PC/Windows. But the question was what does the PC do BETTER than a Mac? There are plenty of examples of Mac software that far exceeds the capabilities of the PC counterpart (i.e. iMovie vs. Movie Maker). So what are the Windows applications that are so much better than the Mac counterparts that comparison is embarrassing for Apple? Again, this is not a question of Software A is not available on the Mac therefore it is better. Show me Software A that is so much better than the Mac equivalent that people hate using the Mac version. Are these mass marketed products or are they for niche users? Seriously guys, I’d really like to know.
Oh, and BTW, Photoshop on a PC may be slightly faster, but as a Prepress Technician specializing in color correction I can tell you that I wouldn’t dare use a PC in our workflow. PC’s are much too fragile and unreliable to use in a production environment. And there is no way I’d risk a million dollar press run on a PC. Been burned too many times.
Thank you, Hammer! That was funny!
I wonder how many billions or trillions of dollars have actually been lost due to Windows computer viruses? Enough to pay off the national debt?
Developers are stupid. They confuse monthly sales volume with installed base. Macs are actually 15%-20% of the computers out there, since they last three or four times as long as PeeCees because of higher quality.
Just *try* explaining this to a Windroid. It is damned impossible. The market share number makes them feel good about their own personal, stupid choices. The installed base number is confusing, it requires multiplication, and it does not make Windroids feel good about themselves.
I have personally seen Macintosh software ready to ship which was cancelled because a Windroid salesdroid didn’t want to change the box to say “PC/Mac.”
Never mind that multi-platform software is much, much more reliable than single target junk. You shake out bugs you’d never catch running on a single OS. You write better, more portable and therefore more future-compatible code.
So the article is dead-on accurate in its assesment of developers as lazy and short-sighted.
It’s so bad, and so uniform, that I am beginning to think that ***windows causes stupidity***! It actually damages the brains of its users, turning them into drooling fanboys of Bill’s buttmonkeys.
It’s hard for me to even think of single-platform developers as “programmers.” They are narrow-minded fools with skill sets tailored to match the shortcomings of their platform.
They are merely computer operators. They are neither developers, nor are they programmers. And if they dare call themselves “software engineers” in my presence I have to ask, “Would any real engineer use tools that break five times a day?” Then I will strangle them.
access to various websites that break with Safari, et al
– Internet banking (Mac not supported)
– File tax return (not supported on Mac)
> For all, user agent spoofing is your friend.
Tried that – doesn’t help in many cases, including my Internet banking. The bank’s obviously smarter than that. Tax return software is Windows only – not a web page. Thinking different shouldn’t involve changing my bank or submitting a paper tax return.
>I agree Windows supports more games and the support itself is better (DirectX vs OpenGL), but there are plenty of entertaining Mac games out there. Maybe not your pet faves, but I have no trouble gaming on a mac.
Sure there are games for the Mac, but the variety or availability is not there. The question was what can a PC do that a Mac can’t: play all the latest games is one of them. Thinking different shouldn’t involve restricting one’s activities.
> I use APple Remote Desktop for just this and it works like a charm.
Not with family members using Windows XP Home. Again, it’s another small reason why I still need a PC. Thinking different shouldn’t involve getting my family to buy new computers.
>I use iChat+iSight for this and it works like a charm.
I very much doubt it. iChat does not support video conference with MSN Messenger. Thinking different should not mean having to get all your friends and family to start using AOL messenger to video chat with them.
A friend of mine told me that he will never buy another Mac because it can’t transcode from Real Media to other file formats. So I asked him how many programs are available to do that on the PC, he said quite a few. I told him that most people aren’t trying to transcode f**king real media files.
> Show me Software A that is so much better than the Mac equivalent that people hate using the Mac version. Are these mass marketed products or are they for niche users? Seriously guys, I’d really like to know.
Mathematica benchmarks on my G5 1.8GHz are about half the speed as on my aging Pentium 4. The speed on my Powerbook G4 1.5GHz are even worse. That’s one example, for starters. Most Photoshop filters are 30-50% slower too (for the G5 1.8GHz versus P4 2.4GHz). That’s a couple that I have personal experience of. The Mathematica performance, in paerticular, is enough to make me use the PC over the Mac for number crunching. And if I do the same calculation at work on the latest Athlon64 it absolutely screams. The Mac is left in the dust.
Hey Keino, you said, “It might also be because software developers hate GUI guidelines.”
I have yet to meet a Windows developer who has even *read* the UI guidelines for Windows.
They…just…don’t…get…it!
In case any Windows developer is curious what these strange “user interface” and associated “guidelines” that we speak of are, unfrozen caveman coder frightened and confused by these modern (c. 1984) ideas,
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnanchor/html/anch_uidesigndev.asp
Like everything else on MSDN, it’s advertising palaver designed to transmit the corporate message, but a lot of the stuff they stole from Apple is hidden in this particular part of MSDN and so it’s well worth reading.
I see “Internet Banking” a few times in these posts as one of the things you can’t do with Safari on the Mac. This is not true. I use 2 banks (Washington Mutual and Keybank) that both support online banking through the browser of my choice, which happens to be Safari on the Mac. In fact, I’ve never encountered an online transaction that required a PC. Could someone post an example of an online bank that is PC only?
Many banks require versions of Microsoft Money or Quicken that are not supported on the Mac. Some examples are at http://www.macintouch.com/marginalcat.html
toddhisattva,
So by your analysis, any developer that is Mac-only “are merely computer operators. They are neither developers, nor are they programmers.” Will you stangle them, too?
Do you find it hard “to even think of single-platform developers as “programmers.” ?”
You must think of most Apple software engineers similarly.
Mathmatica may be faster on a PC. However, the question is what does a PC do better than a Mac. Since Mathmatica is the same on both platforms, the only advantage is how long a task takes to complete. This is not necessarily the definition of “better”. We’ve all seen our computers become obsolete in a few years so the speed argument is really meaningless. You buy the fastest computer you can afford at the time of purchase and the computer you buy a few years later will likely be several times faster than the one before it.
Also, Mathmatica is hardly a mass market application. The last time I used it was back in college. You don’t see it being used in places outside of academic or engineering circles.
Finally, didn’t we see a demonstration of an engineer from Wolfram running a recompiled Mathmatica on the Intel Mac at the last WWDC? Doesn’t this mean that the next release of Mathmatica for Mactels will be just as fast as their PC couterparts? The speed issue cited in this case is a poor example of an advantage that really is not there
So one developer writes that he doesn’t think it’s worth creating software for only 16 million users and then someone else says that the one piece of Windows software he can’t live without is for “national security and space professionals”. Oh yeah, there’s waaaay more than 16 million of them around!
“Mathematica benchmarks on my G5 1.8GHz are about half the speed as on my aging Pentium 4.”
Which version of Mathematica? I went looking for benchmarks, because I was curious, and found some numbers that made sense for Mathematica 4. But when I looked at Mathematica 5, I found the iMac G5 at 1.8GHz comparable to your 2.4GHz PC.
Of course, there are other questions about what kind of tests you’re doing. I have no doubts that an Pentium IV running at 2.4GHz with a couple of gigs of RAM will beat the pants off of a PowerMac G5 running at 1.8GHz with 256MB of RAM.
“The speed on my Powerbook G4 1.5GHz are even worse.”
So you’re comparing your desktop against your laptop?
Have you tried doing Mathematica calculations on your 2.4GHz Pentium IV while sitting outside under a tree? No? Then it’s not really that fair a comparison, is it?
I mean, my Dual 2GHz G5 blows away my iBook G4. But I know which one I’d rather carry onto the airplane.
> The speed issue cited in this case is a poor example of an advantage that really is not there
???
So speed is suddenly not an issue when the Mac is slower?! I don’t think that’s what Apple meant by Think different!
excuses, excuses …
Peter –
Mathematica 5.1 – see my results at http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=632&pid=2390
I actually moved from a Sony Vaio 2.4GHz laptop (at work) to the PB and noticed a huge difference. So, yes, a completely fair comparison.
@ Paul:
>> I use APple Remote Desktop for just this and it works like a charm.
>Not with family members using Windows XP Home. Again, it’s another >small reason why I still need a PC. Thinking different shouldn’t >involve getting my family to buy new computers.
Well, maybe you could “lend” an up XP Pro upgrade to your relatives (how very peecee after all).
Then you could run the mac client of the same software (provided for free by Microsoft!) right from your remote mac. I’ve done this and it works beautifully (but it won’t run OpenGL apps, of course).
And with regards to your iChat comment: The point is that macs *are* capable of doing the same stuff (and with more style – I’m not sure, but does MSN do 3-way video conferences?).
That all *your* friends use MSN is irrelevant.
To Paul:
-M and T Bank Supports Mac, So does Sovereign Bank and many more
-I updated my cable modem from my Mac
-I Filed my Tax returns online from my Mac
-I have never had driver problems with my modern hardware, of course i buy brand names.
-MSN Messenger sucks
-Mac educational for kids reviews http://www.macreviewzone.com/html/reviews/magazine/software/kids_and_edu.php
-Ever see Remote Desktop?
>So speed is suddenly not an issue when the Mac is slower?! I don’t think that’s what Apple meant by Think different!
Of course speed is an issue. My point is that computers get faster and faster each year so this is a diminishing advantage. But, again, the question was what does the PC do better than the Mac? That implies more factors other than how many picoseconds sooner your calculations are finished.
We are compatible with Macs. We were at the time of OS 9 already. With OS X you can even use Safari.
We are fully compatible with OS X and Safari. The problem is not with the OS or the browser, the problem is with the people willing to serve or NOT serve its customers.
Let’s face it, you are talking about Windows, the software, not the hardware. Cos’ the G5 is no match against PC hardware. Intel and AMD have chips that blow away the G5.
And let’s not talk about the Powerbook.
As much as I love Apple, they screwed up the hardware big time lately. The G5 is nice, but it is HUGE and puts out A LOT of head, the Powerbook G4’s are slow as turtles compared to some of the PC based notebooks out there.
OS X on PC hardware is nirvana for most computer users. OS X is the REAL advantage Apple has and must leverage more.
I agree also that insulting developers is definitely not the way to go since many of them also make cross platform software so that we have more choice.
Although I can’t stand Microsoft a lot of the time, would Apple be where it is without competition?
Google Earth
” / can’t imagine a pleasant computing experience (the real genius of Microsoft)”
I think this encapsulates it for millions and millions of people. They have been trained by Windows to have very, very low expectations.
Thinking different should not mean having to get all your friends and family to start using AOL messenger to video chat with them.
If all my friends and family are on Macs then the same holds true if I use MSN Messenger.
Silly point, totally silly.
Compatibilities has nothing to do with one OS doing anything better than another other. And anyway, just use MSN for OS X with your Messengers friends and iChat with your OS X friends that do not want to install it.
There’s something you can’t do on Windows. Can’t install iChat.
> For all, user agent spoofing is your friend.
“Tried that – doesn’t help in many cases, including my Internet banking. The bank’s obviously smarter than that. Tax return software is Windows only – not a web page. Thinking different shouldn’t involve changing my bank or submitting a paper tax return.”
That is one very tough bank. Spoofing worked for me with both Suntrust and BofA. Fortunately both have now come around.
>I agree Windows supports more games and the support itself is better (DirectX vs OpenGL), but there are plenty of entertaining Mac games out there. Maybe not your pet faves, but I have no trouble gaming on a mac.
“Sure there are games for the Mac, but the variety or availability is not there. The question was what can a PC do that a Mac can’t: play all the latest games is one of them. Thinking different shouldn’t involve restricting one’s activities.”
Practically every game announced in the last year has announced for both platforms. Ever since UT2004 got the ball rolling.
> I use APple Remote Desktop for just this and it works like a charm.
“Not with family members using Windows XP Home. Again, it’s another small reason why I still need a PC. Thinking different shouldn’t involve getting my family to buy new computers.”
Install VNC. ARD works fine with that and it is free.
>I use iChat+iSight for this and it works like a charm.
“I very much doubt it. iChat does not support video conference with MSN Messenger. Thinking different should not mean having to get all your friends and family to start using AOL messenger to video chat with them.”
But expecting everyone else to use MSN is ok then? All of the chat clients need to standardize or they are just shooting themselves in the foot. By making it difficult to choose just one I know a lot of people that go for the no-name (Trillian for PC and Adium for Mac) chat clients. We can assume that the chat clients are being used to drive brand and this only hurts them.
Although I can’t stand Microsoft a lot of the time, would Apple be where it is without competition?
Usually the thought is: where we would be if Microsoft did not have Apple competition to face. THAT is the scary thought.
Bill:
> I don’t need server capabilities, just a simple drag and drop. But they refuse to include it.
Um… have you tried going to the finder, go to the “Go” menu, select “Connect to server” and enter in your FTP information?
Don’t need 3rd party software to do FTP, it’s built into the OS. Unless your still using System 9 or sumthin.
So, to summarise then:
If the Mac is better at something then it’s an advantage an important
If the PC is better at something then it’s irrelevant or unimportant
Way to go Mac users! Think Different folks!
“Mathmatica may be faster on a PC. However, the question is what does a PC do better than a Mac. Since Mathmatica is the same on both platforms, the only advantage is how long a task takes to complete.”
Completing tasks faster is a big advantage in my book. It’s what allows me get home by 5:00PM to spend some quality time with the wife ‘n’ kiddies.
That is one place where I can put the PC ahead of the Mac from a hardware standpoint. I can build, or have built for me, a PC that will do something faster than a Mac. I have no doubts about this. If I want to compute pi to seven million digits, I can get a PC that will do that much faster than any Mac out there.
But, again, it’s optimized to do one thing very well. That doesn’t necessarily mean it will be a good machine to surf the web with. It doesn’t mean it will be a good machine to manage my “digital life” on. It’s just a rockin’ fast machine for computing pi.
Paul, above, pointed out that his Pentium IV beats his PowerMac G5 doing Mathematica calculations. I don’t doubt him. But the interesting thing is that Paul appears to have both. And I’ll bet I can tell you which machine he uses to run Mathematica and which machine he uses to surf the web, read e-mail, and write up the conclusions from whatever mathematical thing he is modeling.
Now, why do we suppose this is? If his PC is so rockin’ hot at Mathematica, why would he even have a Mac?
In the end, it is not how fast the computer is but how much faster the computer makes me in the various tasks I do in my life. For example, I have a dual 2GHz PowerMac G5 at home. I use this machine to manage my finances, surf the web, send e-mail, develop software, write documentation, color-manage large (ie 5 x 8 foot) images, edit video, burn DVDs, listen to music, and play games. Some of this stuff I do at the same time. This machine is a workhouse and does everything I throw at it.
Conversely, when I look at other people with PCs who are as technical as I am, they have separate machines for all of this. They have a “development” machine which they use “for work.” They have another machine that they use for surfing the web and e-mail. They might even have a third machine that they use for games. As an aside, I sometimes wonder if this also has anything to do with market share statistics.
Years ago, when people asked me “What should I buy?”, I would ask them “Why are you buying a computer?” Sometimes I’d get answers back like “Well, I need to do this.” I’d tell them, “Well, buy a machine that does that.” More often than not, though, I’d get “Well, I want to look into digital photography and the Internet and maybe build a web page and some stuff.” If the person wasn’t sure what they were going to do with it, I’d tell them to get a Mac. Because it’s the best machine for doing lots of different things. As I said, I can construct a single-purpose machine that will blow away a Mac in regards to speed. But Macintosh’s ability to do everything–and with Mac OS X, to be able to do it simultaneously in a rock-solid fashion–without having to get an MCSE certificate–is the winner in my book. Buy a Mac and whatever you decide to throw at it, it’ll come up smiling.
Katrina, there are important features missing in the Windows versions of Photoshop, so they are basically unusable for someone who is used to Mac versions, no matter how fast they are. I was surprised as hell to find out how Windows users were getting shafted by Adobe, but one shouldn’t use Windows Photoshop if you want anybody to think you know what you’re doing. You won’t be able to do as good of a job, not to mention all the time wasted backing up frequently for fear of crashes. Professionals don’t use Windows, it’s for gamers.
Shadowself
Since STK is “Platform independent – PC, LINUX, and UNIX” ask them when they will support BSD Unix … which is what OS X IS …
Bill … try “Connect To Server” and use and FTP URL .. or and SFTP one or CURL or HTTP or WebDAV or …. browse and upload and download just like the drive was part of your Macs set of volumes. Been there for ages
Paul … or sites that are Windows only becuase they use OLE activex controls … internet banking works wonderfully here … Remotely access and fix relative’s computer problems … BIG security hole and you can do it with apple remote desktop (or one of several other more secure tools)
Oh … and most of the issues with video confereincing are becuase MSN refuses to let anyone use the protocols. Ichat might if MS would LET them. As for activeX controls that restrict you to using a PC to bank or file a tax return ,,, thanks to MS NOT making that possible and having turned the Internet into it’s own new monopoly with AciveX controls (and all the virii they bring)
Bob Windsdale .. having done live video for years on a Mac and never having gotten it to work very well on a PC (despite spending a lot of time and money)… use what you want. PC’s are great cheap CPU when you need that .. to run some nice tools on Linux
Chomper … one thing .. Apple introduced the Mac into a vaccuum occuppied by MS DOS … where would they be today with out MS ? They’d probably be the 95% of the markey becuase MS would not have stolen their ideas (for Windows 1.0) the UI and gotten away with it oto fnally create Windows 95 and everything else since then …. maybe …
And, in all of this I still have yet to see anyone say “Windows does this SO much better than OS X you should have it”
I will admit my PC serves as a much better room heater than my G5
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“this mean that the next release of Mathmatica for Mactels will be just as fast as their PC couterparts”
Not necessarily. If Mathematica REALLY is faster on PC, it can’t be because of the chips; the currently-shipping G4’s and G5’s blow away Intel’s current offerings. It would mean they spent more time optimizing the PC code than the Mac code.
Lord Robin, I try to be fair. I have macs and PC, and the applications I rely on for my business aren’t available for macs. Plus, I build my own PC’s and they are really cheap for the latest horsepower. But yes, if I were a dumb bunny consumer with no acumen I would be much better off with any mac because it is not subject to virii. Also, mac’s os’s are easier to learn and use, I guess.
My trollishness was encouraged by MDN’s “lazy” line. We used to be bummed because Steve wasn’t selling enough macs to make it worth developer’s time to write mac programs. Now he is selling slightly more macs, and the problem is that developers are lazy? I don’t think so, and if there were a profitable void like that, it would be filled, were there not more profitable ones available.
Of course, anyone who disagrees with me is free to jump into that void and harvest the fat crop. Start with these guys: http://www.tradestation.com/default_2.shtm
“Practically every game announced in the last year has announced for both platforms. Ever since UT2004 got the ball rolling.”
Really? What about FEAR? Elder Scrolls: Oblivion? Battlefield 2? Splinter Cell Chaos Theory? These are the just a handful of the biggest games out there just released or about to be released….no availability on the Mac.
Just because a tiny fraction of developers will make a Mac version doesn’t mean Macs are suddenly on par with PC gaming, as your statement indicated. Current shipping Macs dont even have the latest hardware to run these new releases.
Fear the PC Gamer! He is never, ever happy with his frame rates!
Boogah!
Paul,
First, I want to apologize. You mentioned a “1.8GHz G5” and I rashly assumed you had a PowerMac G5. In fact, you are using an iMac G5.
There is a difference. The most obvious one, related to performance, is that, in a PowerMac G5, the front-side bus is clocked at half the CPU’s clock. In an iMac G5, it is clocked at one-third the CPUs clock. That probably explains some of the difference in what I saw.
I’m also confused because you mention in your article that you’re using Mathematica 5.1, but you refer to articles stating that Mathematica 4 does not support AltiVec/Velocity Engine. In your defense, from what I can see, 5.1 doesn’t support Vectorization either, but 5.2 does. I would be curious to see your results with 5.2, since AltiVec rocks.
Fred: “If the Mac is better at something then it’s an advantage an important
If the PC is better at something then it’s irrelevant or unimportant”
Well, duh!
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Seriously, though, PC people tend to amuse with this, too.
Remember back when Apple first announced the G5, they showed SPEC CPU benchmarks showing it soundly beating an Intel CPU. “It’s not fair!” shouted the PC users, “They didn’t use Intel’s optimizing compiler!” I’d also point out that Apple also didn’t use Metrowerks compiler, which was better at optimizing than GCC. So they made sure they used the same software on both sides.
On their PowerMac performance page, they show a benchmark where a PowerMac G5 running Final Cut Pro soundly trounces an Intel machine running Adobe Premier. “It’s not fair!” shout the PC users, “They should both be using the same software!”
Trust me–Mac users aren’t the only ones who try to have it both ways.
Joe McConnel: “[…] the applications I rely on for my business aren’t available for macs.”
Feel free to list them. We might be able to help you find alternatives.
Alot of times, I’ve found that the PC software feeds on itself. For example, I met a guy who couldn’t give up his PC because he needed Microsoft Project. Since there was no Microsoft Project for Mac (there is, but it’s a joke), he needed a PC. I suggested one of Mac project managers. But if he used that, then he wouldn’t need his PC. And he needed his PC. “For what?” “Microsoft Project”
By the way, in regards to criticizing “lazy” developers for not doing Mac versions, I sort of agree. But there is one entertaining statistic that I like to point out.
Awhile ago, I looked at Forbes list of top software companies
The top software companies, according to Forbes, are Microsoft, Oracle, Electronic Arts, Computer Associates, Intuit, Adobe, Symantec, PeopleSoft, and Intergraph. I actually transported IBM into there, too, which is why I list 9 instead of ten. But I’ll leave them out for now.
Anyway, of the top 9 software companies, how many do you think sell Macintosh software? Well, Microsoft (Office), Oracle (9i), Computer Associates (eTrust AntiVirus), Intuit (QuickBooks, Quicken, Tax Prep software), Adobe (lots), and Symantec (Norton Antivirus, Personal Firewall, Internet Security, and Utilities). So, 4 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 9 develop Mac software.
If we look at the bottom seven (Veritas, BMC Software, Siebel Systems, BEA Systems, Synopsys, Cadence Design Systems, and Mercury Interactive), only one of these–BEA Systems–develops Mac software and that’s primarily because everything is written in Java.
I do believe some companies have a blind spot when it comes to the Mac. The frequent quote: “None of our customers use Macs.” Well, that’s because you don’t have any Mac software. Duh. The question you should be asking is “Do any of our competitor’s customers use Macs?” If so, there’s a market opportunity to yank away some of the competition.
Joe,
No ‘bitch scrap’ intended
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />, but maybe a deténte instead. Anyway, I’d like to pose comments and questions to you.
While I personally don’t believe that software engineer’s are ‘lazy’, I do think that many software developers (companies) are fooled by the marketshare number that seems so lucrative to them.
Those developers don’t see a viable reason to produce software for only 15-20 million MacOSX customers. Yet, I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that there are more than 20-25 million WinPC consumers that would BUY Windows software. (I mean, How does Adobe and MS make 20-25% of their gross income from -5% of ALL users?)
And you know that many of the personal (not corporate) Windows users ‘borrow’ software or ‘find it’ on the ‘net, and then brag about this accomplishment. Most believe it’s their right to these ‘warez’. How to companies make money like this?
Please, explain to me how the same number of ‘individuals’ on the WinPC side – who are willing to PAY for software for ‘their’ personal computer, as there are ‘individuals’ on the Mac side – who are willing to PAY for software – is somehow ‘better’ for Windows SW developers.
I seriously don’t get that. (Other than platform religion
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Anyway, I hope to pick up your response later. I’ve gotta get my car from the repairshop.
A little off subject, but here is an amusing story
http://www.techweb.com/wire/security/170102273
“How does Adobe and MS make 20-25% of their gross income from -5% of ALL users?”
Adobe, definitely, but I doubt Macs make up 25% of Microsoft’s gross income.
Some of it does have to do with competition, though. One reason Adobe and Microsoft make so much money is that they have no real competition in the Mac market. Of course, they don’t have that much competition in the PC market, either.
There’s definitely room for one company, but is there room for two in the tighter “vertical market” application market? If you’re selling software for, say, Doctors offices, are there enough Mac-using Doctors so that two companies could split the market in half and make money? That’s debatable.
That said, the right company can come in and own the Mac market with a good product. And, if you have a Windows product as well, the cross-platform capabilities can get you into companies you never thought you’d be in.
Heck, consider Antivirus for a laugh. Now we all know you don’t need Antivirus on a Mac. But lots of corporations buy site licenses and one reason they’ll buy a NAV or a McAffee is that it will protect all of their machines–even the ones that don’t need protection! Heck, at that point, the Mac version is almost a “feature” of the Windows version. But without the Mac version, you wouldn’t even get in the front door. So these people can sell snake oil and get away with it because customers want to buy it!
Actually, Antivirus is pretty well represented on the Mac. Symantec, McAffee, CA, that english company whose name escapes me, and Intego. Why the heck are all these companies developing Antivirus solutions for a platform with no viruses? Because it’s a requirement–if they want to sell that 50,000-seat site license, they have to support the 1500 or so Macs in there, whether they need support or not.
– Start Menu is exceptionally handy compared to the Apple menu
How So? Drop an alias of your hard drive in the dock…same thing. There is no longer an Apple menu in OSX In OS9 it was totally user customizable. How is the start menu better than that?
– I can do all kinds of things from the right-click menu though Mac is starting to get there.
What’s different?
– Task Bar is better than the dock: smaller icons means I can put more on it and the program dock is more intuitive on the pc.
How so? The dock can vary in size. The size of icons is up to you. Windows is a drag and drop nightmare in a production environment (from application to application). The active windows takes over the screen.
– managing network connections is better on pc
How & Why?
to name a few
The cutting edge of piracy related freeware/shareware has always been in the PC camp. Those aren’t greedy developers writing code but tinkerers. There are more ways to slice and dice a media file in the PC world than there are in the Mac world. The software eventually crosses the platform divide, but in smaller numbers and later. iTunes is one exception.
neomonkey, I don’t doubt you, but I’m curious as to which features the Mac version of Photoshop has that the Windows version doesn’t?
To j
Its a great setup. We have a similar thing here at work. Basicaly your Mac and your PC are both turned on but totaly seperate from eachother. There is a little box that sits between the computers (Dr Bott is the brand I forget where we got it) and one minute you’re looking at a PC screen, then you switch a switch and you’re looking at a Mac screen. All on the same screen. It’s not like you have 2 operating systems on one partitioned computer or anything like that. But you can network the Mac and PC together so say, you may do something on the PC that can’t be done on the Mac, then send it to thae Mac through the network, switch the switch, then you’re on the Mac working on the same file doing what has to be done then send it back to the PC switch the switch etc, etc….
It just means you have access to ALL software regardless weather it runs on MAc or PC because you have both machines.
A bit like owning an Xbox and a Playstation, you have access to all the games.
Anyone car to explain it better ?
I’d say for which platform you program is not a question of laziness and not even primarily a business decision, but a question of capability. Programmers, as individuals, are nearly always single platform only. Look at your average open source project: the versions for the different platforms are maintained by different people.
Think about it the other way round: suppose you suddenly got the itch to do a little programming, dug out the developer tools from the Tiger DVD and wrote an FTP client, a screensaver, or whatever, would you afterwards port it to Windows?
Hardly.
You’d have to buy a PC, if you don’t already have one; you’d have to get a compiler or development environment for the language you used and get familiar with it, and you’d have to get familiar with Windows itself.
Would you do that?
Besides, it’s not only a matter of knowing the platform, but also of knowing the people who use the platform, what they like and what they don’t like. UI guidelines, as have been mentioned, are a good example. Mac people want programs to abide by them, Windows people couldn’t care less, some would even say, “what a
twerp, has to have MS tell him how to write his program!”
And it’s not just the details, often people on different platforms want different kinds of programs altogether. I don’t think Delicious Monster would be a big success on Windows. It’s just not a thing Windows people do with their computers.
Thanx OT,
Interesting perspective.
The concept of ‘different’, not better
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toolazytotell…
You state, “Shadowself
Since STK is “Platform independent – PC, LINUX, and UNIX” ask them when they will support BSD Unix … which is what OS X IS …”
It is true that most of the core pieces of STK can be hosted on all three of those OS’s, but not all their modules (and some crucial ones I need). However, none of them run on PowerPC versions of those OSes (and Windows on PowerPC isn’t supported by Microsoft anymore). I know as I was discussing with Paul and his team about porting the Intel/BSD version of what they had in that flavor over to a PowerPC/BSD version for them (for free, I just wanted it to run on a Mac, even under BSD/X11). They considered it for a while but decided the support costs would be more than could be justified by the tiny additional income.