“FireWire is still Apple Computer’s baby, but the proud parent is cutting the cord. With the latest crop of iPods, Apple is no longer including a FireWire cable in the box. The music players will still work with FireWire, if a cord is purchased separately, but only a USB 2.0 cable comes with the device. The move is part of a gradual shift on Apple’s part to standardize the iPod on USB, which is far more common in the Windows world,” Ina Fried reports for CNET News.
MacDailyNews Take: Is “cutting the cord” or “knifing the baby” more appropriate to use when describing the situation?
“Although Apple’s embrace has been gradual over several years, it is still a big shift for a company that helped develop the standard behind FireWire, technically known as IEEE 1394, and has been one of its biggest proponents,” Fried reports. “Some Mac owners were rankled by the move, saying that as recently as a year or two ago many Macs didn’t include a USB 2.0 port. As of Wednesday night, more than 1,300 people had signed an online petition calling on Apple to again include a FireWire cable with iPods.”
“When the iPod debuted in 2001, it used only FireWire, and even the second crop of iPods–the first to support Windows–lacked USB support entirely. It wasn’t until April 2003, with the dock connector-based iPods, that Apple first offered a USB 2.0 option. And then it was USB 2.0, which had to be bought separately as a $19 extra,” Fried reports.
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: The Apple iPod boxes used to read “Mac+PC.” Apple iPod boxes now read “PC+Mac.” Mac users ought to be able to “do the math” and get used to being treated by Apple as second class iPod users from here on out. Shareholders should be happy that Apple has a “money talks” attitude. Mac users, especially long-time Mac users, should be wary. Unless your Mac is less than 1 or 2 years old, you’ll have FireWire ports, but only USB 1.1 which transfers files much more slowly than USB 2.0 and does not carry enough power to charge an iPod. (And, by the way, even USB 2.0 can’t compare to FireWire 400 for sustained data transfer rates). Apple’s attitude toward most Mac users seems to be, “you’re in the minority, go buy the extra cord” or the usual “go buy a new Mac.” Getting “taxed” by Apple for being a Mac user really rubs us the wrong way. And exactly whose fault is it that we’re in the damn minority anyway?
What do we want from Apple? Respect for Mac users. In fact, we want better, we want preferential treatment for Mac users; it’s well-deserved. We also want Apple to provide to consumers the choice between a FireWire or USB 2.0 connectivity cable from (at least) the online Apple Store at the time of purchase for no extra charge. It’s not the lousy twenty bucks, it’s the principle. Do the right thing, Apple.
Related MacDailyNews articles:
Apple should include a combo FireWire and USB 2.0 cable in every iPod box – February 24, 2005
Petition to Apple for iPod FireWire support posted online – February 23, 2005
Apple knifing its own FireWire baby by pushing USB 2.0 as iPod’s primary connectivity option – February 23, 2005
Getting “taxed” by Apple for being a Mac user really rubs us the wrong way. And exactly whose fault is it that we’re in the damn minority anyway?
I guess it’s time for Apple to reopen the Mac-clone market. Resurrect the Power Computing Corporation and let the games begin B-)
Oh please. All this fuss over a $20 cable?
The iPod doesn’t need firewire, so why make a big thing out of it just on principle? If Apple doesn’t want to add unnecessarily to the cost, and get the larger market opportunity, they made the correct decision.
Rowwwwwrrrrr! Ffffft, ffffft!
Somebody’s up tight. Apple is not obligated to provide either FW or USB cables. Since fewer users in the total computing market are likely to have FW, it makes sense for Apple to focus on USB. Why should they be expected to include both cables?
As for the Wintel focus, this may seem like a snub, but if it means more people will buy the iPod, then in the end it could be better for Mac users. Just a little sacrifice we have to make to get more people in the club.
This is how things get done, people. Keep up the pressure, MDN. Apple should do the right thing and offer Mac users the option of a FireWire cable from Apple’s online store. That seems VERY LITTLE to ask. Wake up, Apple!
Hell hath no fury like a Mac user scorned.
Apple should just ship the FW cables to customers for free as complimentary. All they have to do is ask the customer if they require it. For one thing, those FW cables are not worth $20, so Apple is getting a good profit from them I can guarantee you.
look, it’s a financial decision. Apple needs to appeal to the PC world to sell more iPods. And I would’ve bought my iPod whether I had to buy a separate cord for it or not. Stop making such a big deal out of it.
They are just trying to get mass appeal. When a PC user reads that box and first sees “Mac” before it sees “+PC” some will think the iPod is only for Mac’s. It’s a marketing strategy. If you invented this device and wanted to sell it to as much “mass” as possible you would understand, it’s all about proliferation and $$$.
As for the cord….just trying to increase the profit margin. A “cheap” business tactic.
Why not lower the price by removing the USB cable and let everyone buy whatever cable they want as an add on item.
A lot of folks won’t even need to buy a cable since they will have spare cables from other obsolete devices.
Apple just needs to put a sticker on the box indicating that a cable is required that is not included – just like a lot of printers, etc.
I don’t really understand the uproar over this either.
It’s all about computer sales. “What, you don’t have a new enough Mac to have USB 2? It’s time to update again!” Apple wants us loyal users to keep updating. This is yet one more way to do it. And why not? I’m really enjoying my Mini, and it now handles all my USB 2 needs. I still enjoy my G4 tower (with mutiple firewire drives) for video editing. I don’t see this one move killing firewire… but it might get a few people to update that old hardware.
The Kahuna: “A lot of folks won’t even need to buy a cable since they will have spare cables from other obsolete devices.”
People have specialized USB 2.0 and/or FireWire cables with iPod Dock Connector plugs on one end from “other obsolete devices?” On which planet?
Face it Mac lovers, Apple is screwing you in favor of the Wintel world and you’re lining up to take it as usual.
Good article Ina. The single firewire cable from the back of a Mac to a dock or a ipod of any generation is still the easiest, most elegant way to connect an ipod. In the words of Mister T, I pity the fool that has to use Apple’s kludgy T cable with the usb and firewire connectors to accomodate the PC public that doesn’t have a powered firewire port for this purpose…
All that said, shame on Apple for punishing all of us ipod evangelists a.k.a. Mac users by eliminating the firewire cable. If anything, mac users should be entitled to a nominal exchange (shipping costs) to get the proper cable for their new ipod mini or photo.
Why anger the very people that are helping Apple win more mindshare day after day?
Do we want the “halo effect”? This is the price. Well done, Apple
$20 dollars for a cable? I’m sure they are making $15 off each cable if not more. The majority of people who would need to purchase this cable are mac users. Just expect more of the same BS as Apple grows.
OK USB 2.0 IS WAY FASTER THAN FIREWIRE 400
FIREWIRE 800 IS WAY FASTER THAN USB 2.0
NOW THE FIREWIRE HOOKUP WITH THE IPOD IS FIREWIRE 400
SO IT IS SLOWER THAN USB 2.0
GOT IT
SO I RATHER HAVE USB 2.0 THAN HAVE A FIREWIRE 400 CABLE HOOKUP
SOMEONE BACK ME UP HERE
This is pure nonsens .. FireWire cable is just an extra, that’s all.
Is any one else worried how the power adapter will plug into the iPod now? Will they just switch that to a USB connection? Also, I like the very very fast Firewire connection with my PB, but when I plug in the just fast USB on my PC desktop it works well too.
SHOUTING BOY!
USB2.0 has faster burst rate. Firewire 400 has faster sustained rates.
Due to tehse small drives being relatively slow, it makes little difference in this application.
But it really sucks that iPod is now PC+MAc rather than Mac+PC
Jeeray:
Actually USB 2.0 is slower than firewire 400. It claims 480, but FW400 smokes it in real world tests.
… and turn the CAPS LOCK off …
Everyone should quit their whining. Going USB 2 just makes sense for Apple. All of their new machines will have it. Even the mini has USB 2. What do you want a SCSI connector for your iPod? With this decision they serve a broader base. Not everyone has a Mac or PC with Firewire. “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” And we’re still few for now.
So what. If you can’t live with whatever USB you may have, or you don’t have USB at all, then buy the damn FireWire cable. I’m starting to think it was a mistake for Apple to have ever used FireWire for the iPod because of everyones crying.
Why wouldn’t Apple cater to the Windows world with the iPod? The iPod is just a cash cow that is financing all the great strides the Mac and OS X are making. It is also is easier for Windows people to use the iPod with the USB cable (because of lack of FireWire ports on some PCs), therefore increasing the user experience and further increasing potential switchers to look at buying a new Mac, which by the way will come with USB 2.x ports.
I also find it hard to believe how long Mac users keep their aging machines. I have had my iBook now for 3 years which is the longest I’ve evey kept any computer and the old dog is still a great machine, but I’ve gotta get something newer soon. I use my computer so much that I appreciate and deserve to be using something relatively new. To give you an exaple of what I mean, I bought a 20″ cinema display for my computer at work where everyone else has 15″ CRTs. Everyone was amazed that I would spend $1200 for a monitor when I don’t HAVE to have that nice of a monitor. I explain to them that I value how I spend my time, and that I can’t explain why I was content to spend 8 hours a day looking into a small CRT. The improvement it brought to my work environment is well worth the money spent.
jeeray,
I am running through USB 1.0 thanks to the backwards compatibility the standard. It is slower, but not slow enough to go into a frenzy when in a few years my 4G iPod needs to be replaced. But to back you up, yes, I believe 2.0 is faster than FW 400. So on a scale we have
serial port (why PC still have these I don’t know) USB 1.0, FW400, USB 2.0, FW800
MDN, your take is just WRONG.
With the 50.00 drop in price on the 4GB model, even after buying the cable you are still getting it much less then what it was a week ago. And now there is a new option to get a larger hard drive, at the price of the previous 4GB model.
I really think we need to stop bitching and whining about every little thing. And yes, this is a LITTLE thing.
Okay, how about this. Apple raises the price of the iPod minis by 50.00 bringing the 4GB back to 249.00 and the new 6GB to 299.00. Include the much whined about firewire cable…. problem solve. Cry babies and all pay 50.00 more for a firewire cable that the may or may not need, they can throw the power adapter block back in, and we can all live happily ever after.
Then I suppose that people would whine about the 6GB costing the same as a 20GB iPod. Well, smaller things costs more usually (why does a 20oz bottle of soda cost 1.09 and a 2 liter bottle is .99? Because you don’t want to walk around with a 2-liter bottle now do you… it is a size thing, not quantity!). Don’t like it? get the iPod 20GB then, and just STFU for a change.
The AC adapter and the Cradle to Firewire cable cost $49 retail when bought thought the Apple store. Therefore the only thing really new about the 4G iPod mini is the longer battery life and and the cosmetic changes. The price drop is a myth.
Geez people, the top of the line iPod photo went from $599 to $449. At $20 for the firewire cable you’re still $130 ahead. To really stay competitive, Apple has decided to simplify the packing and features included with an iPod to bring down the price. Smart move, in my opinion. Now how is that a slap at Mac users?
OK USB 2.0 IS WAY FASTER THAN FIREWIRE 400
FIREWIRE 800 IS WAY FASTER THAN USB 2.0
NOW THE FIREWIRE HOOKUP WITH THE IPOD IS FIREWIRE 400
SO IT IS SLOWER THAN USB 2.0
GOT IT
SO I RATHER HAVE USB 2.0 THAN HAVE A FIREWIRE 400 CABLE HOOKUP
SOMEONE BACK ME UP HERE
Actually, FireWire 400 is faster than USB 2.0…
http://barefeats.com/usb2.html
Man, what a bunch of whiners!!
If I want to use Firewire, I will just use the cable that came with my FIRST Mini!
People, just pay the extra $20 and get over it. If you can afford $249 for a LUXURY item then you can damn well afford the extra $20.
Gee, Mac, I want my floppy drive back too!!!
I applaud Apple for not including a cable that the majority of users will never use (until they finally toss out the PC and get a Mac mini). This is a good business decision with respect to reducing costs and protecting profit margins.
However, for the minority of people (us Mac users w/firewire) that want to purchase the Firewire Cable it should be at most $10. They’ll still make a profit and at that price we are not getting screwed.
I thought Apple was cutting out FW capability from the iPod. If it is as simple as buying a FW cable as an extra, I have no problem with that.
Hywel,
Are we really bitching about who’s name comes first? This has hit an all new low. And it really needs to say Mac on it for you to know that this Apple made product is able to work on a Mac? Once again, small things that mean little to nothing, but somehow people are making a stink about it. (rolling eyes)
I’ll give you guys something to bitch about. Why does Apple spend all of it’s marketing dollars on the iPod and not showing off the Mac OS at all? I would like to see 20% of the iPod advertising budget given to the Mac OS and run some commercials showing off how much better the Mac OS is over Windows. That is something worth talking about.
The Dude abides.
$ 20 is $ 20. For some people, its a lot.
The point isn’t the money, folks. The point is the slighting of Mac users who are in the space between FW posessing and USB 2.0 lacking. I have friends with iBooks and PowerBooks that are 15 months old with firewire obviously, but not USB 2.0. What do they do? Spend $20 more on an Apple cable for their Apple iPod to work tolerably with their Apple laptop? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?
Here’s another point. What about the Windows users who have *PROBLEMS* with iPods over USB 2.0 because Windows still has mediorce USB support????? I know multiple people who are *very good* Windows IT people and have cleanly running Windows machines, whose iPods will not operate properly over USB. Funny, plug it into my PowerBook with firewire, and it’s perfect. Firewire is also basically driverless – USB is not.
AWFUL MISTAKE. Do not give me this “cost savings” crap – that cable, by now, can’t cost Apple over $1.00 each. Leave them both in the box. Adding USB 2.0 was catering to lowest common denominator. Now you’re cutting out Mac users … bad bad bad.
I think most of us are not really that concerned about the cost, but Apple is apparently concerned about the cost. And that’s the part that is so upsetting. It’s a definite change in philosophy for Apple.
The cheapest Mac used to cost more than the cheapest Dell because you got better, more superior equipment. They weren’t completely focused on selling as many units as possible, which game them the freedom to create superior products, even if the majority of people didn’t buy them. That’s why we love Apple so much. They don’t make products that are “just good enough.”
Now they are saying that their goal is to sell products even if that means giving the consumer less. That wouldn’t be a problem if USB2 and FireWire were equal, but they are not. FireWire is clearly the superior product.
They are clearly catering to the PC world and the truly upsetting part is that there is no indication that this is going to be an isolated incident. Are they going to start making cheaper displays to appease Mac mini purchasers that want a cheap, low-quality display? And then next they will cheapen the Mac itself?
It’s great that Apple is reaching an ever growing audience, but they must be very careful not to lose sight of what it is that makes them truly unique.
you don’t have to buy the firewire cable from apple. you can buy a 3rd party one even cheaper.
froogle
You Mac people crack me up. Now, you’re getting “taxed” by Apple for being a Mac user and most of you here seem to be lining up and bending over in anticipation for your usual reaming.
The fact that now it’s not Microsoft or Adobe or some third-party forcing Mac users to pay extra, but Apple, of all companies, is re-goddam-diculously funny!
Why not just offer a firewire and a USB version and call it a day?
Personally, I think USB 2 was the way to go, Just because most systems today dont come with Firewire.
Mine do though…!
“Standard” as in USB 2 and Firewire are both the standard.
For all the good MDN does in reporting on Mac news, you are overstating the importance of the cable issue. To suggest that Apple is abandoning Firewire is simply wrong. Your rationale is misguided. Apple is simply being more financially and environmentally responsible. The idea of a cable exchange or ordering option IS an excellent idea, however. I could get behind that movement.
A world already filled with strident rancor and vitriol is not well served by hyperbolic rhetoric. Apple has long offered so much more than the PC world to improve our collective user experience. Apple is not about to abandon its user base.
Perhaps a better issue to explore is the possibility that emerging technologies such as Bluetooth may soon render the cable issue moot. New iPod docks with built-in wireless technologies could make for a wonderful discussion.
Though it is rare that I am compelled to respond, this was one instance that begged for a better perspective. Thank you again for many of the thoughtful articles and reports over the years. I enjoy the often-insightful perspectives of your staff and the readers.
king_alvarez,
Yeap, you are right, Apple sold a superior product, and look at our market share now. Cost more, less units shipped, less market share. So Apple is trying to avoid the iPod becoming like our Macs are, the low market share device. I think it is good that Apple is trying to keep the field competitive and sometimes you need to trim the included fat.
Everyone loves to see Apples shares go up, well, things like this help. The more units you can move, the better your bottom line looks at year end (usually). Apple is doing that they think is right. Has Steve lead the company poorly since his return? I think not… so let him run the company and stop whining about EVERY LITTLE THING (not directed at you king_alvarez, just a general broadcast).
The Dude abides.
MDN wrote this yesterday about this subject and said it all:
“Do not force Mac users into substandard ‘solutions’ just because that’s what the majority of Wintel PC users happen to be stuck with or ‘tax’ Mac users an extra $20 because we want to use the better, Apple-invented connectivity solution that’s built into our better, Apple-invented Mac computers. Apple, you should allow users to choose between FireWire or USB 2.0 cables at the point of purchase, at least at your online store. We Mac users have been treated as second class citizens for years from most other tech companies, do we now have to endure being treated that way by Apple, too?”
Apple has chosen a worse connectivity to be iPod’s standard because that’s what Wintel boxes come equipped with – and that’s the only reason. Where will Apple cut corners on quality NeXT? If Steve Jobs cares about quality, he’ll reconsider this move. Otherwise he’s bullshit and Apple is starting down the wrong road. This seemingly minor issue could be a ominous sign.
Let’s see, Apple drops the price significantly – more than the cost of a FireWire cable – includes more functionality and people are getting all upset.
Go buy an m:robe, something from Creative or iRiver if you’re so upset. Oh wait, you want Apple’s DRM but don’t what others to be able to access it. Gee, all this “choice” you have being locked in to the iPod (and gleefully expounding about it) and now that Apple takes shrewd capitialistic steps that you don’t like you get all upset.
Methinks thou dost protest too much.
Yawn…Mountain out of a mole hill comes to mind.
Remember, Apple was on the brink of disaster just a few years ago and the iPod saved them. Why shouldn’t they further “arm” their Trojan Horse? Did MDN forget about the switchers? If switching to USB 2 means more PC user purchases, it means more switchers.
Have a USB-included box and a FIrewire-included box on the store shelves would be an inventory disaster. Places like Best Buy wouldn’t want to stock the Firewire version at all. Bad idea.
Having to deal with exchanging cables would likely cost more than simply including the cable. Bad idea.
Not including any cable in the box would have some purchasers getting home and forgetting the cable. Or the store where you are buying the iPod is out or doesn’t stock the cable you want. Bad idea.
The only reasonable choices are include the cable in the purchase price or make it an accessory. I could see them offering the FW cable for $5 if purchased at the same time as your iPod. $10-$20 otherwise.
The last time I checked iPod division was part of Apple Computers not a separate company. That means that Apple brings a product that disrespects its main (or not ?)business and its customers. I wouldn’t complain so much if Creative or Sony treats Apple users as second class citizens but I wouldn’t expect that from Apple itself.
If they want the market share they should bring the price even lower and let the customer choose the cable.
Firewire is ways better than USB-anything and even if I only kept my lame PC I would prefer FW for synchronization and charging.
A lot of complaining over nothing I think. Newer computers come with USB 2. “Legacy” computers will fork over $20 or buy a PCI card. Speed isn’t a huge concern for me. I load up my iPod which takes a while the first time. Each time after is a small incremental update. Can’t we find something else to complain about? Like the 256MB of RAM that comes with iMac and Mac mini? Or people that put “first post”?
This issue could be fixed, if… when ordering an iPod … Apple includes one cable for free… then,….. at the point of sale, Apple asks the consumer.. which cable he / she prefers….
End of arguement !
It’s rare I say this, but MDN are spot on.
It’s the price not the principle.
“Apple has chosen a worse connectivity to be iPod’s standard because that’s what Wintel boxes come equipped with – and that’s the only reason. Where will Apple cut corners on quality NeXT? If Steve Jobs cares about quality, he’ll reconsider this move. Otherwise he’s bullshit and Apple is starting down the wrong road. This seemingly minor issue could be a ominous sign.”
I agree 100%. Watch out, Apple. We’re watching you.
I don’t know if other mac users are like me, but I have too many firewire cables hanging around anyway. I think they must be reproducing – perhaps even becoming self-aware?
Could Apple be assuming that mac users already have firewire cables that came with their machines?
Gawd, this is what gives Apple users bad names.
Stupid petitions over a $20 wire. And we’re supposed to be the more affluent user?
Face it guys, Apple is trying to make inroads into the PC market, best way to do that is to give USB cables.
Let’s argue over something more important than a stupid cable.
damm…
Most people here still don’t get it, apparently they can’t read. It’s the principal not the price. Quoting my self from yesterday:
This is Apple treating Mac owners as second class citizens. That’s the disturbing part. It doesn’t affect me personally, I have an iPod with firewire cable. But in the last couple of years, I’ve talked a few people over to macs and they don’t have iPods yet. In fact, I just told my nephew last week to hold off on an iPod until later this month. Now if he goes and buys an iPod, he’ll have to cough up another $20 he wouldn’t have had to if he had stuck with a pc. 2 years ago, no mac shipped with usb2. ibook, powerbook, imac switched to usb2 in the fall of 2003, less than a year and a half ago. The emac switched over less than a year ago. I think that “Steve Jobs” said succinctly above (11:51 am post).
Given that Macs are solid performers for at least 3 years, to me, it makes sense to make this move, but not for another year. Or have some sort of trade program.
Does this mean Apple won’t ship a 5 inch floppy drive on my Mac Mini when it ships in two weeks?
Apple was never afraid of leaving behing legacy ports and devices. We are all proud of them for leaving behind the floppy drive.
If you are stuck with USB 1.0, tough titty.
My suggestion is to send Apple feedback through there iPod feedback page. Let them know politely that you would like to have a firewire cable included along with the USB cable so Mac users get the same value for there money as the people who use it with a PC. Mac users should not be forced to pay more for something that they have been using for years. FIREWIRE.
http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html
What the hell is this discussion about ?!?!?
Isn’t that narrow hole in front of your G5 a USB2 jack? And at the back of your iMac G5 too? Even iMacs G4 sold after 09-2003 sport USB2. So what’s the fuzz? Better buy a new Mac if you can’t stand buying this additional cable for 20 bucks!
I think what Apple should do is include a coupon in the box that can be redeemed for a Firewire cable, only those who really need or want it would get it. I would guess most PC users would not get it unless they had firewire on their computers.
A somehow related issue: I was a somehwat annoyed also that the Airport Express does not come with the extension power cord, the only way to get the extension power cord is to pay $40 an accessory kit which contains a couple of other cables I already own. I don’t mind a paying a few bucks for the extension cord but $40 for it seems a bit much especially when the device its self is $130
The Dude,
I agree. Steve obviously knows how to run the company. And it’s comforting to know that he has no intention of letting Apple shrink into oblivion, as can be seen by its broader target. I also agree that, for the moment, this is a little thing.
My main reason for arguing was because many people here think that our motive for concern is due to our wanting to save a few bucks, which is entirely not the case. All of us want to see Apple succeed while continuing to produce elegant products. Thus, some of us are concerned that Apple might be shifting its focus away from the product itself. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. In any case, Apple has shown that it is capable of producing cheaper products without sacrificing quality and elegance (Mac mini) and if it continues to do so, then this FireWire issue will have been completely unnecessary. However, it is important if this is the beginning of a new trend for Apple. Only time will tell whether our concerns are justified. In this case is just seems that the cost aspect outweighed the product itself. Next month hopefully this whole thing will have been forgotten when Apple releases its next innovative product.
I agree with MDNWS on this one that it is the principle of this matter. Mac users shouldn’t be made to pay extra for the same product. Especially a firewire cable which Apple helped invent. Putting priority on the PC folks is not fair to the Apple faithful who have supported Apple all along. That’s what the uproar is about.
The firewire cable is essential for most mac users (at this time). USB1 is too slow. The iPod should come with essential equipment. Docks, remotes, power adapters, etc. are non-essential.
All ya morons. Shut the fuckup and use USB or buy that fucking cable.
$20 for FW cable, wow, I’m in wrong business, but hey maybe I should go to the local store, buy them for $2 and sell them over the web for $5.
who cares about the firewire. The rest of the planet uses USB, so go after the big market share. I support anything that makes my AAPL share price go up
*Yawn* Blink, blink.
What’s the principal? Apple lowers the price significantly (more than the price of the FireWire cable that MOST customers have no use for), adds features and you are complaining about getting more for less?
Perhaps if there were a build-to-order option (select cable, USB or FireWire), that might be more satisfactory. But still, methinks thou dost protest too much.
You want Apple to pay for a cable that most people never use? And you want Apple to make sound financial judgements? And lower its prices so more people can experience Apple products and maybe buy a Mac?
Then the cable gets killed, and you need to get a life.
Jake, is that you? How come you no call me no more?
Apple does like Adobe did for DTP: PC first then Mac!
MDN is so melodramatic.
Go back to your soap opera’s and leave the mac reporting to others.
zupchuck, since you asked, it’s a significant amount of mac owners have to pay more!!! It’s not the $20 (too much for a $2 cable).
I was told that it supports the cable connection on the dock. Which will be packaged with a USB cable. Well I already have 3 iPods so if I get another one I should be able to use the existing cable instead of get something I really don’t need. Am I right? Or am I the only one with spare docks laying around?
b,
Pay more than what for what? The lesser offering from last week? The point is, you are getting more for less $$$$ than last week even if you buy the cable.
Is that bad?!
Show me how you are worse off (ie, out of more $$$ from your pocket) than last week in this scenario.
Welcome to the world of consumer electronics, folks.
Has anyone done some testing/comparisons between iPod USB 2.0 vs. FireWire?
zupchuck, it’s that a significant amount of mac owners have to pay more!!! Not more than they paid last week, more than others have to pay now.
Here we go again:
– Firewire is not a legacy port, stop it with the floppy analogies
– a simple walk-in exchange program would make the problem go away
– nobody cares about Mac users more than SJ. Stop it with the chicken little omens
– the iPod is no longer a luxury product. Compare what used to come in the box with what is now included. Remote, dock, cases, firewire cable are now gone.
Does this mean that we can finally use our iPods and iSights at the same time? Everyone remembers that problem, right? Maybe that’s another reason for the change.
I don’t think Firewire is disappearing soon as some people seem to be concerned. It’s becoming a standard for vehicle AV wireing and already plays big part in home and building automation and AV delivery. The new HDTV’s also have it as well as the AV receivers. Since it’s the only protocol used in AV and computers others like USB have long way to go.
I wonder if Apple is aware of all the problems reported in their own iPod forum that windows users have with USB 2 connections? My heart goes out to all those helpers there who until now suggested to buy a firewire card. Using a firewire port used to solve all these issues.
mike k.
Firewire is not a legacy port, USB 1.0 is a legacy port. A device like a camera or a printer or an iPod that requires USB 2.0 will not work propperly on your legacy USB 1.0 port. Upgrade or buy a FW cable.
Get it now?
Tough titty.
Please stop the whining, us Mac users! The price cut on all the iPod is more than enough to offset the cost of a Fire Wire cable. It is not that iPod will not work with FireWire at all, it will work with both USB and FW so stop the complain. It is another excuse for PC bigots to rag us.
Chuckie C,
it’s that a significant amount of mac owners have to pay more!!! Not more than they paid last week, more than others have to pay now.
I don’t understand. Everyone here freaked when AAPL was at $13 dollars and now that AAPL is close to $90 and PC users are driving Apple profits nowadays, Apple decides to save some cash on a Firewire cord, Mac users freak out again. You are either freaking about $13 dollar stock or a Firewire cord. Oh no, PC + Mac! What is this world coming to. Jobs does not have to run everything past you people. If Steve wakes up one morning and decides to port OSX to Intel, I guess 911 operators will be working through their smoke breaks.
Maybe now Mac users will understand Apple is just another “business”. Make more money. Look good to a potential merger/buyer.
Get a grip people…
b,
Then buy last week’s iPod, it comes with a “free” FireWire cable….
If you want more, you pay more. I guess the fact that “more” actually costs less than it did with iPod that came with the “free” FireWire cable is lost on you.
“The AC adapter and the Cradle to Firewire cable cost $49 retail when bought thought the Apple store. Therefore the only thing really new about the 4G iPod mini is the longer battery life and and the cosmetic changes. The price drop is a myth.”
the price drop isn’t a myth. its a reality. its $50 cheaper to get a 4g iPod mini that is fully functional, AND has twice the battery life.
a petition? lol.
The firewire cable is essential for most mac users (at this time). USB1 is too slow. The iPod should come with essential equipment. Docks, remotes, power adapters, etc. are non-essential.
Al reading is your friend. For example:
mike k. said:
Firewire is not a legacy port, stop it with the floppy analogies
no need to reply. I’m embarassed enough for you as it stands.
Your Mac (or PC) has a USB port yes? Then FireWire is not essential by your logic. The fact that the vast majority of customers don’t have FireWire ports and had to pay more for a useless cable doesn’t get these people in an uproar.
>MDN wrote: And exactly whose fault is it that we’re in the damn minority anyway?
It’s yours, you bought a Mac!
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—
Teasing aside (as true as it is), I think that’s what makes Mac fans the way they are – fiercely loyal. They’re the snubbed underdogs. They’re the kid who gets pushed around and fights back and holds his own.
Apple with large market share is very different company than Apple with low market share.
>MDN wrote: And exactly whose fault is it that we’re in the damn minority anyway?
It’s yours, you bought a Mac!
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”raspberry” style=”border:0;” />
—
Teasing aside (as true as it is), I think that’s what makes Mac fans the way they are – fiercely loyal. They’re the snubbed underdogs. They’re the kid who gets pushed around and fights back and holds his own.
Apple with large market share is very different company than Apple with low market share.
“Chuckie C,
it’s that a significant amount of mac owners have to pay more!!! Not more than they paid last week, more than others have to pay now.”
All Mac owners on this board have always bragged about having to pay more for better quality. I remember so many “Ford to BMW” comparisons, remember? You should, it probably was just in a post from two days back. You know what I’m talking about. Don’t pretend you don’t. Well, here you go. Your wish is Apple’s command. Now you have to pay more. Ask and ye shall receive.
Mac users better be careful what they ask for. You can’t have PC users infiltrate your precious camp without paying a price. You’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg. You’re gonna pay the price…
The firewire cable is essential for most mac users (at this time). USB1 is too slow.
Take note of the last sentence. And no one ever paid more for the firewire cable.
>MDN wrote: And exactly whose fault is it that we’re in the damn minority anyway?
It’s yours – you bought a Mac!
… thought it was worth repeating!
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”raspberry” style=”border:0;” />
>MDN wrote: And exactly whose fault is it that we’re in the damn minority anyway?
It’s yours – you bought a Mac!
… thought it was worth repeating!
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”raspberry” style=”border:0;” />
Hurst Golden Girl,
I never bragged. I never made the bmw/Ford comparison. Obviously “all” mac users here don’t agree on everything
Here is a USB 2.0 vs. FireWire speed test article (an exerpt):
Theoretical speeds and our observations
Don’t be confused by the rated speeds you see emblazoned across USB 2.0 and FireWire product boxes. Despite USB 2.0’s 80 Kbps speed advantage over FireWire, our testing showed that the additional overhead of USB 2.0 made it slower than FireWire. For high-bandwidth devices such as external hard drives, the difference was as high as 70 percent. On a positive note, we noticed that the CPU usage of each interface was similar on our Pentium 4 1.3-GHz test system. During a 1.54GB data transfer from our system’s internal hard drive to an external drive, USB 2.0 averaged 40 percent CPU usage compared to 37 percent for FireWire.
http://www.g4tv.com/freshgear/features/39129/USB_20_Versus_FireWire.html
People, the iPod interface DID NOT CHANGE! It still supports USB 2.0; it still supports Firewire. The ONLY difference is the cable that is supplied. This does not mean that USB 2.0 is the preferred iPod connection. Both are supported equally through the dock connector. I agree with the notion that the iPod should come with a cable, but you should be allowed to choose which type you need at the time of purchase.
Firewire did (and will) not go away. It is used as the connection of choice on digital camcorders, and for audio and video editting work for its sustained data rates that USB 2.0 can’t deliver.
mike k.
Apple is selling iPod’s that are now, in effect, USB 2.0 devices just like any other USB 2.0 device. If you want one you have to upgrade to USB 2.0 or buy a handy cable that turns the iPod into a FW 400 device.
Why can’t you get your head around that?
In other news, due to the fact that the majority of computers are PC’s with floppy drives, Apple will now distribute all iTunes software exclusively on floppy.
Sorry Mac users. Floppies are better because they’re more popular.
Pfft.
In other news, due to the fact that the majority of computers are PC’s with floppy drives, Apple will now distribute all iTunes software exclusively on floppy.
Sorry Mac users. Floppies are better because they’re more popular.
Pfft.
Disrespected?
What, is MDN a jilted rap artist now?
By the god damn cable and shut up. Chances are, you already own a firewire cable (or dock) with your current iPod, so big fucking deal.
Al now i see the problem. I was raising several different issues in my original post. I am sorry if you found that confusing.
One point was: people suggesting that Firewire is now a legacy port and thus Apple has no need to support it were wrong. I think you and I both think that comparing floppies to Firewire is silly.
The above point is separable from whether or not Apple should bundle only one cable. This latter issue is not terribly interesting to me anymore as the ground has been well trodden by others.
I’ve put a lot of thought into this since yesterday. I guess us Mac diehards should just suck it up and let Apple do what they feel is best. I guess our best approach would be to use the reverse psyche and make this into a positive thing. Show Apple your loyalty to FireWire and buy your FireWire cable with your iPod purchase and let that salesman (or saleswoman) that you’re spending that $20 extra for the better solution.
MDN Magic Word: “moral”
“oh yeah” and I want Apple to come whipe my ass every day also”
Apple is NOT dropping firewire (that CNET article was moronic). It is NOT disrespecting ANY Mac users. This is just a matter of keeping costs down to the minimum. Apple is after the Mass Market in Audio Players unlike what they had done in Computers. If your keeping costs down why would you include 2 ways of connecting to a computer? For the vast majority of users, doing so would mean that one cable gets left in the box unused. Doing so then would be what Apple used to do as a boutique seller of computers. Give lots of extras but sell it for a higher price. Doing this would let competitors in because they DON’T include all the extras. Why? because for the Mass market PRICE is most important factor in purchaces. What’s been the main knock against buying a Mac? Higher prices.
People complaining about not having all the extras are basically complaining that Apple Is playing to WIN. How screwed up can you get? If you have a problem with what Apples done here you need to seriously educate yourself on Economics and Marketing.
Apple should at least offer the buyer the option of getting a firewire cable on the online store. That would take very little effort on their part and would show that they listen to and support their most loyal customers. Other companies spend MILLIONS of dollars trying to build the kind of brand loyalty Apple enjoys. Apple should at least make sure that they do the footwork to maintain the loyalty of the mac user community.
Maybe someday Apple may re-port the iPod to work on Macs. Write in so they may support legacy firewire connections as well.
Apple finally got a whiff of the money in the Windows world and they ain’t not looking back.
Up next:
FCP for Windows
OSX for Windows.
Apple WinX hardware – Dual Opteron w/all the latest and greatest never released on a Mac (at hundreds lower than a Mac)
—
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”raspberry” style=”border:0;” /> And in case you’re unable to tell… this is merely a joke.
HAHAHA… Yep… got all that from Apple not including FW with their iPod bundle.
Maybe someday Apple may re-port the iPod to work on Macs. Write in so they may support legacy firewire connections as well.
Apple finally got a whiff of the money in the Windows world and they ain’t not looking back.
Up next:
FCP for Windows
OSX for Windows.
Apple WinX hardware – Dual Opteron w/all the latest and greatest never released on a Mac (at hundreds lower than a Mac)
—
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”raspberry” style=”border:0;” /> And in case you’re unable to tell… this is merely a joke.
HAHAHA… Yep… got all that from Apple not including FW with their iPod bundle.
If Steve wakes up one morning and decides to port OSX to Intel, I guess 911 operators will be working through their smoke breaks.
The day this happens, will be the same day Ford starts dropping 350 Chevy engines into Mustang GTs rather than the usual 302 Ford engines. In short, it ain’t gonna happen!
From the ipod site on apple.com
Mac system requirements
Macintosh computer with USB 2.0 or FireWire port
This shows that Apple knows that all the mac users without a USB 2.0 port will require the firewire cable.
If you bitch loud enough, they will give you one. If you already have had the last two generations of iPods and still have a cable, what’s the problem?
I really think you are over reacting to this. Very few PCs come with FireWire, while they all come with USB. And all Macintoshes since 1998 come with USB. This is simply a smart cost-cutting move on Apple’s part to try to sell as many iPods to as many people as possible. Lighten up.
Klaatu,
According to Apple, the iPod requires a mac with firewire or USB 2.0
Can we have FOUR articles a day about this boring non-issue?
Three is not enough.
Oh, the pain of Mac users! Such a slap in our faces!
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It’s a slightly-faster cable, once standard but seldom useful, now optional.
Who… CARES???
The next versions of iPods will no doubt ship with neither cable “for our customer’s convenience”.
b,
So go buy the FireWire cable for $20 and feel good that you didn’t get the “free” one last week with your more-expensive, less featureful iPod.
As a Mac user, you are still better of now than you were last week. And, the vast majority of iPod purchasers don’t have to spend extra money on a cable that is useless to them (and consequently pay more for the product that contains the FireWire cable).
The next thing you know, people will be bitching that their electronic devices didn’t include batteries. You know, power is a requirement to run electronic devices. Or that their Mac mini doesn’t have a keyboard and mouse or monitor.
zupchuck,
I don’t understand why you still don’t get it. The point is this:
The average mac user pays more than the average pc user.
It has nothing to do with comparing the price of this generation and the last one. You keep bringing that up. stop.
Right on zapchuck.
Principle my ass, your talking about a $20 cable.
Right now, Apple has the perfect trojan horse ie the iPod. People are buying Macs and learning more cos’ they are impressed with the iPod.
You guys who are blinded by this stupid principle crap are the types that would sink Apple.
Get over it. If you want Apple to expand it’s share of the marketplace, support them!!
b,
So the objection is that the vast majority of iPod purchasers (PC users) get a greater discount (even if lower transfer performance) that the Mac owners? Niether side is spending more than before (and that is relevant), neither side is being denied features of the iPod by being a PC user or Mac user.
If the PC user wanted FireWire connectivity, then they would have to spend more for syncing their iPod than a Mac user. Why is it wrong to ask a customer to spend a little money for a cable with enables greater time savings, but OK to ask most of the customers to pay for a cable they find is useless (in the case of the PC user)?
And yes, it does have something to do with comparing product generations. Tell me why progress (more features, less over-all price regardless of configuration) is irrelevant? Because your Mac doesn’t have USB 2.0? If so, buy a new Mac and save yourself the cost of a the FireWire cable. Or buy last week’s iPod.
I used to work at an Apple retailer; the markup on computer cables at all retailers is huge – gross margins of 75+ %, and you know that Belkin and the rest are making their profit in selling to the retailer. So, Apple, in buying millions, could get the cost of a FireWire cable to a very low point. I think taking care of your loyal Apple customers, and maintaining mindshare for FireWire, is more important than cutting costs and boosting retail profits by forcing customers to buy a high-margin cable at retail price. Include the FireWire cable.
zupchuck,
I don’t understand why you think it is relevant to compare this generation and the last one, but hows this:
before, the average pc user paid the same as the average mac user
now the average pc user pays less than the average mac user
It is not wrong to ask a customer to “spend a little money for a cable with enables greater time savings”. But for the average mac user, Apple is asking them to pay $20 for the ipod requirements. Out of the box, most macs don’t meet the iPods basic requirements. Since these are Apple computers, it is Apples fault that they don’t.
Apple is taking care of it’s base. The iPod consumer base. Which is largely PC users without FireWire.
Apple starts making inroads, and the Mac “faithful” get all bitchy. I’m ecstatic you people are not on the board of directors.
You people are crazy, and this debate has gone on too long. I just plug my Pod into my ADC connector……..
b,
I don’t know what to say. Buy a PC? Spend less (and get less) than average Mac user. It’s not like you have to spend more to get the same experience as the PC user.
USB 2.0 has been out 18 months on Macs. If your older Mac doesn’t have it, buy a USB card for $20. If you can’t add one in, buy a FireWire cable, or last weeks iPod or a PC or find a PC friend with an extra cable.
You see, anybody who bought a Mac within the last 18 months has both USB 2.0 and FireWire. That seems reasonable to me. If you don’t want to upgrade your whole kit, pick up the FireWire cable – you’re still spending less and getting more than last week’s iPod offering. Which, when you compare it to all the current iPod owners, is spending less than the average iPod user.
zupchuck,
I have a iPod mini already, so this doesn’t affect me. An 18 month old mac shouldn’t be considered an old mac by Apple.
And still with this??
” you’re still spending less and getting more than last week’s iPod offering. Which, when you compare it to all the current iPod owners, is spending less than the average iPod user.”
before, the average pc user paid the same as the average mac user
now the average pc user pays less than the average mac user
True. The average PC users has always paid less than the average Mac user for everything.
Buy a PC.
This continuing thread shows just how whiney, bitchy, and self centered some Mac users can unfortunately be. The latest iPod release from Apple and in fact much of their activities with iTunes/iPod recently is about one thing, and one thing only.
Selling more iPods.
It has nothing to do with “cutting the cord”, “knifing the baby”, getting “taxed” by Apple for being a Mac user, or forcing Mac users into substandard ‘solutions’. It’s about selling as many iPods as possible, and that’s exactly what Apple needs to be doing. I applaud them for that.
Here’s a look at the bigger picture.. Peel away all the layers of bullshit from the digitial music world, and you’re left with the core of what’s at stake..
Digital music format, and who owns it.
Apple is currently in a fight to the death with Microsoft over digital music format, and Apple must win that war. It’s far from over, and every iPod sold is another nail in wma’s coffin. Apple needs to sell as many freakin’ iPods as they can, and as soon as they can. The longer wma hangs around, the more likely that it will prevail in the end. Everything Apple has done lately with iPod and iTunes is to drive their current advantage to total victory.
Yes, the latest move is directed squarely at Windows users. It’s what Apple has to do to win the war against Microsoft. Get over it.
Magic word is “like”, as in “like get a clue”.
The real shitty part is that Apple was *two years* behind the curve on USB2, trying to push FW as hard as possible.
Now, the people with that generation of machines — who, had they bought a PC at the same time would have had USB2 — will have to pay the extra $20 to have a useful iPod.
That sucks. And once again, it’s not about the cost — it’s about the respect to your loyal customers and the BETTER technology.
Those of you whining about the whining: I am not on Apple’s board of directors. I am a customer and want Apple to product products I wish to buy. With the iPod, they have taken a step backwards and made it less appealing to me. So it is my right to whine, and if there are enough customers like me perhaps they will change their position.
Why should I, the customer, forgive Apple for charging me more? You expect more from me than a PC users, somehow. They, of course, won’t put up with paying extra for a cable. Well guess what, I’m a consumer, just like them. And I can and will take my money elsewhere if Apple puts out a product I consider substandard.
Yeah, PC users unwillingness to pay for iPods is what let to how many millions being sold last quarter? And now that they have commited to by millions of iPods, they get cut a break. LOOK OUT! THE SKY IS FALLING!
Some people can’t cope with the fact that when it comes to the iPod, the majority of consumers aren’t Mac consumers.
I can’t believe there are so many people saying “Live with it” or “Get over it”. Smells of PC users to me! To give some perspective, I have a perfectly capable G4 Cube that serves as my main machine (as well as a 2004 12″ powerbook). My Cube does not have USB 2.0. Why should I, as a longtime supporter of Apple, have to buy a separate cable to sync my iPod? And what about the AC adapter?
The fact is that Apple has again shafted its installed base; and it’s not the first time! I for one was going to get a new iPod photo to replace my 40G gen 3 iPod. After this I will not be doing so, and will not do so until Apple reverses this decision.
These two so-called “small” things only touch the tip of the iceberg of what is wrong with Apple lately!
“According to Apple, the iPod requires a mac with firewire or USB 2.0”
Which all new Macintoshes come with. What’s your point?
To all the people saying Mac users are getting shafted on this… take a deep breath. We are not getting shafted on this. No one is FORCED to buy a FireWire cable. USB 2.0, although not invented by Apple, is a perfectly usable, albeit slightly slower, means of connecting an iPod to a Mac.
Apple is not, I say again NOT, dropping support for FireWire from iPods. They just are not including a cable in the box. Geez people… get a grip.
“The fact is that Apple has again shafted its installed base; and it’s not the first time! I for one was going to get a new iPod photo to replace my 40G gen 3 iPod. After this I will not be doing so, and will not do so until Apple reverses this decision.”
Newsflash! The FireWire cable from a 3G iPod will work with a 4G ipod.
C’mon FW cables are a dime a dozen. I’m sure a lot of us have a few spares lying around. For Apple the cost may be minimal but multiplying it by the millions of iPods it has to be included with it soon adds up. Anything Apple can do to help keep the prices down is good for us.
The fact is that Apple has again shafted its installed base; and it’s not the first time!
You may be upset to learn that the installed base of iPod owners are overwhelmingly PC users. Sorry.
I have a 3 year old PB without USB 2.0. What to do? Well, I originally bought a dockless 20GB iPod. Just last week I bought a dock. Now, until Apple moves beyond the dock strategy, I can keep buying iPods that I’ll pop in my firewire dock without a problem. It’s not like you’re going to have to buy a new firewire cable everytime the iPod gets revised folks.
You have to be kidding me right? What the hell do you want MDN? Petition all you want, even if you get as many people to sign as trees Steve Jobs hugs you just are not getting a Firewire cable. What is Apple? Yes, that’s right: A company. I public one at that. At the end of the day, Steve is checking the stock price just like Bill. That doesn’t make him evil. It just makes him a damn good CEO. Not having two cables just makes sense. Going with the one that is going to be used by most people makes sense. Apple is by no means abandoning the Mac, Firewire, or anything else. We are not talking about any loss of functionality, are we? No. So climb down from your Ivory Tower screaming the sky is falling. Prevent a monopoly. Go and buy a Dell.
MDN is right – it’s all about respect – if Apple wants to appeal to the masses they should make PC’s that run Windows.
We may love Apple products but Jobs has always been a prick and his attitude towards his loyal user base has always been “F-ck ’em” if they don’t like it.
“Disrespects” is not a verb.
I believe MDN has the right to state the belief and that MDN seems more logical than Apples choice to diss Firewire users. BTW what the fsck is up with FW 800… has Apple given up on it?
As a user of a 2 year old iMac with Firewire 400 & USB 1.1 I DO feel somewhat dissed by this. I love Apple’s products but I hate what they did here. Feels like an awful republican thing to do.
I post this yesterday on some other threads, around 4pm…
– – – – –
While coming up with a sane response to Apple regarding the recent iPod decision, I poked out this. Read it thru’ – you may actually approve
–
It’s been suggested that 80% of iPod owners are throwing out their FireWire cables. That would mean that 20% of iPod owners are throwing out their USB-2 cables.
The public are being told that Apple is reducing costs and passing on the savings to it’s iPod customers by not including the less ‘popular’ FireWire cable.
Some folks have suggested, that Apple reduce the ‘cost’ a further $20. They think that this massive waste could be ended if customers could choose which is appropriate at the point of purchase. (Thinking, an outfit like BestBuy or FutureShop will acknowledge that most of their customers will need the USB-2 cable and correctly manage to have supplies that cover those customers. Conversely thinking, a Mac retailer will acknowledge that most of their customers will need the FireWire cable and correctly manage to have supplies that cover those customers.)
Many feel that as a consumer product – leaving out a connectivity cable would inconvenience ALL iPod customers.
I think that the difficulty that some of your Apple iPod customers (20%?) are having reconciling this decision, is that they are ALSO your Apple Mac customers. The delemma they see – is this is a decision that negatively effects their (Apple) computer product, not positively effects a consumer product – even an Apple one.
Leaving out the (superior, Apple) FireWire cable now – in favor of the USB-2 cable might be prudent IF most Mac users had USB-2. Currently, most don’t. This probably would have been a non-issue if Apple had chosen to do this particular change 12-18 months from now.
As for today, do you think that a ‘FireWire-for-USB2-Cable-Walk-in-and-Trade-in’ program would work for your Mac customers that are also your iPod customers?