“The choice to use a Mac or to be Muslim in today’s world is not easily understood. In a world where the vast majority of computers are PC, where Islam is perceived as the enemy, why would someone choose to be a Mac user or a Muslim? Bias against both is rampant. Those who we rely on to educate us — the media — are themselves neither Muslim nor Mac users. Outright untruths are widely subscribed to. Muslims and Mac users are described as cult members, when, clearly, we are not. Both Islam and Macintosh are legitimate movements, with no spooky stuff in either of them. Obviously, the more than a billion people who follow Islam and the more than twenty-five million who use Macs cannot all be crazy,” Asma Gull Hasan writes for The San Francisco Chronicle.
Asma Gull Hasan writes, “At restaurants, when I place my order, I have to provide a blanket disclaimer: ‘Could you make sure my meal doesn’t have any pork products like bacon, sausage, bacon bits, lard, pepperoni, pancetta, or pork?’ ‘Oh, OK,’ the waiter will say. Is he annoyed, I ask myself? Are they wondering if I am Muslim? Should I say I’m allergic to calm him? I go through the same dilemma when looking at computer products. Should I tell the salesperson I need a Mac-compatible mouse? Will he laugh at me?”
Full article here.
Related MacDailyNews article:
I really wonder what some Windows users think about Macintosh – November 04, 2002
dumbest article ever
” Muslims and Mac users are described as cult members, when, clearly, we are not.”
Yes, you are. One dictionary definition of Cult: . A system of religious belief and worship. Perhaps they should start teaching Latin again…
I feel similarly about being vegetarian – people act like I’m from another planet.
Interesting perspective…. however, Mac users did not murder 3,000 men, women and children on one day – and consider it a God-given duty to do so… with 77 virgins waiting at the end of the slaughter.
So… here we are, two and a half years later… and I’m still waiting for one Muslim cleric to clearly, without equivication, declare that the September 11th actions were against Islam, and that the perpetrators are NOT martyrs… that they are burning in hell.
So… how about it, Muslims…. ? How about just ONE person declaring that the September 11th hijackers are NOT martyrs and that what they did was against Islam?
Hello?
Still waiting….
Hello?
Someone is writing an article about Macs being misunderstood in the media, and he’s talking about asking for a Mac-compatible mouse? I think he doesn’t quite understand them himself.
Muslims? Mac owners?
Where are the BMW owners? (Or Porsche Made in Finland?)
Another anal..lyst who does not know what is happening.
I know that with the Mac I can get (A) 380 virgins (every day) and re-incarnation to the top level (excellent karma).
If you do not believe check this out:
Microsoft is like George Bush. Paskaa I say.
glick . . .
would timothy mcveigh have to apologize for being raised christian? would any murderer have to apologize, or have someone from their faith, apologize for them?
i do not believe the cowards who attacked the US were religious in any way. i’m catholic, but from what i know, islam does not preach such violent acts.
in every religion, there will be fanatics who will misuse holy texts . . . ie, the KKK . . . don’t they feel like God is on their side? did anyone ever ask the german christian community to apologize for the millions killed in the holocaust?
to call on muslims to apologize is misguided.
i would like to think that as mac users, we are more intelligent than the masses, that we can see past superfical things . . .
i firmly believe that those fuckers who attacked us are burning in hell. as well they should be. but i’m not about to condemn a whole religion because of them.
I am truly embarrassed to be of the same species as Glick7. But, because he can’t do a simple internet search here’s a start…
* Organization of the Islamic Conference, Doha, Qatar. October 10th, 2001: (representing 56 Muslim nations) “These terrorist acts contradict the teaching of all religions and human and moral values.”
*”Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs”, states Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.
*”Bin Laden’s Violence is a heresy against Islam”, states Abdul Hakim Murad
*Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi denounced the attacks against civilians in the U.S.
*Sheikh Mohammed Sayyed al-Tantawi of Al-Azhar, the highest institution in Sunni Islam, warned that those who attack innocent people will be punished by Allah, in his weekly sermon to thousands of worshippers in Cairo. “Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the Day of Judgment,” the moderate Sheikh Tantawi said at Al-Azhar mosque. “It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack,” he said.
* “Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts.” Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001)
*”It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to Praise those who kill innocent people.” Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan. Cited in NY Times, Sept. 28, 2001.
*”What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in.” King Abdullah II, of Jordan; cited in Middle East Times, Sept. 28, 2001.
These, along with MANY MANY MORE, can be found at http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm along with their links and full text. This was just the FIRST of hundreds of hits from the search engine.
Glick7, GET A LIFE!! The psychos through the ages, much like yourself, have perverted the texts of all religions to meet and support their own twisted goals. As my friend was being beaten, the batterer was screaming “God wants all fags dead!” I am quite sure there is more crime done in this country by Christians than by any other group.
ditto, except for the “I am quite sure there is more crime done in this country by Christians than by any other group.” so-called christians would be bette,r i think.
Well said Bleekr,
The same misunderstanding of western civilization and christianity exists in the minds of those in the Muslin world as well.
Exposure to other people and their ideas, habits, religions and beliefs all goes towards dispelling religious and political bias.
What we are fighting is ignorance and brainwashing.
For example:
1: The hardcore Israeli’s “Zionists” as they are called, actually believe the land where Israel used to be 2000 years ago is still their land and entitled to them by God. So since they believe they have his blessing, they go ahead and kill, steal land etc., which is a violation of their own 10 commandments of Noah which they believe doesn’t apply to non-jews.
2: The Muslims who lived there for the last 2000 years with Christians and Jews in peace are denied their land and holy sites in which they believe. So their children are raised to believe killing Israeli’s is good and they will go to heaven in a blast of a suicide bomb.
3: Then the Christians are raised to believe that anyone who objects to the actions of Israel is a enemy of God. Because according to the bible they are “God’s chosen people”. Well anyone can call themselves that!
Everyone is getting snowballed. Jews, Christians and Muslins alike. By their beliefs in religion. When they should just tell their religious leaders to fuck off and begin to live in peace with one another.
Religion is nothing more than a cult with more members.
nononono guys, the true intention of this article is to redirect the misguided angry american views of muslims to mac users … “don’t blame islam, blame macdom”…. of course, we’re going to have to find a word like thr equivalent of “jihad” that they can misinterpret as something entirely different than its true meaning..
When they should just tell their religious leaders to fuck off and begin to live in peace with one another
that’s a little hard to do since the first 18-21 years of a persons life they are dependent for substance and security from their parents. they have to go along with them or risk going without.
the parents are subjected by the norms of the community they live in, if they isolate themselves they get cut-off by their own kind.
man is a herd animal, he works in groups and lives by them. he gives up rights to his independence and free thinking for the security of the group mentality and it’s rewards structure.
people who see this are either very smart or something about them excludes them from being in a group, they walk alone, make their own decisions and are financially well off to be able to think anyway they want.
consider yourself one of the lucky few
good story
When someone else in the perpetual discussion group called Americans racist and anti-Muslim, Hassanain objected. “American people are very easy to make friends with. They will accept you no matter where you come from,” he said. “Only the government policies are terrible.”
Glick7,
As others have pointed out, you’re so full of shit the whites of your eyes are brown. If you had done a simple search, as Aryugaetu did, you would have discovered for yourself that the vast majority of Muslims were horrified and disgusted by the September 11th cataclysm, and distance themselves from the criminals who purport to act for Islam. Is it fair to judge Christianity by the actions of Jim Jones at Jonestown, or David Koresh at Waco? If your answer is no, then you need to get your head out of your ass and SHUT THE FUCK UP, you narrow-minded, knuckle-dragging flatworm, because that’s exactly what you’re doing, prejudging a group about which you know nada. You wear your ignorance like armor and have the nerve to display it in all its sordid glory. Stick to talking about what you know, not what you think you know, which appears to be not much.
Zoon politikon is an old and obsolete theory! .. and by the way, don’t mix up your social theories.. The “social contract” is a completely different thought than zoon politikon, as the social contract, by the views of any of the great social philosophers who discussed it, is formed out of pure reason and logic (man gives up his individual rights to form a society in the intention of a greater good) which are completely absent in animal behavior. Man is either a herd animal or forms a social contract, he can not do both. If your analysis is correct, “Dr. Shrink,” mankind would be nothing more than a herd of animals that thought they had more of a society than they really do…
Well I am a Christian ( that’s why Matthew24 ) and a happy Mac user, as such I don’t want to be associated with the muslim religion. On 9/11 we have seen the true source of the muslim faith. To read more about islam here is a very good site from somebody who left the muslim faith and wants to warn the world for the true nature of Islam. To take away any prejudice, this is a secular site:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
Re: GroundZero
1: The hardcore Israeli’s “Zionists” as they are called, actually believe the land where Israel used to be 2000 years ago is still their land and entitled to them by God.
A reasonable enough thing to think if one believes the Bible to be true.
So since they believe they have his blessing, they go ahead and kill, steal land etc., which is a violation of their own 10 commandments of Noah which they believe doesn’t apply to non-jews.
1. The 10 commandments were received by Moses, not Noah.
2. The commandment is to not murder, which is distinctly different from killing.
3. Taking back something that is rightfully yours is not “stealing.” So, from the perspective of who you’re talking about about, taking their own land back doesn’t constitute a breaking of their commandment to not steal.
2: The Muslims who lived there for the last 2000 years with Christians and Jews in peace are denied their land and holy sites in which they believe.
Uh. In peace? Wasn’t it the Muslims that did a hostile takeover of Israel, killing people, etc.? You know? The original reason why the Crusades were started. At that time, Muslims were spreading so quickly, they threatened to conquer the West. Convert or die was their motto. The Crusades ended somewhat unfortunately, but let’s not forget the original cause of it. The Muslims wouldn’t have holy sites in Israel if they hadn’t taken that land by force initially.
3: Then the Christians are raised to believe that anyone who objects to the actions of Israel is a enemy of God.
Uh. This may be taught in some odd, cult off-shoot of Christianity, but is largely untrue and is not a Christian doctrine (that anything Israel does is right). In fact, quite the opposite at times.
Religion is nothing more than a cult with more members.
Unless it’s true. Which is what both Islam and Christianity claim. Furthermore, Atheism is a religion of sorts as well. So, in a way, everyone is a member of a religion. Some people religiously believe that there is a God(s) and some religiously believe that there aren’t.
Anyhow. Simply writing off “religious” people as wackos is probably not a very good idea since some of the smartest people I know happen to be Christians and there are many very intelligent people who are Muslims as well. This became rather long… Sorry about that.
Rememeber the Crusades? read up on it.
Actually I read the Quran, and there are a few bad tibits, just the same garbage the bible has. All secular people are going to hell too, remember? The bible has slaying of non-believers as well. In fact the bible has more hateful speech than the Quran, but you don’t beleive it right?
Actually Matt your full of hate, your supposed to love your enemies.
This site FaithFreedom.org is nothing but a hate site run by those wishing to radicalize people like you. It may be run by radical Israeli’s, ever think of that?
It’s people like you Matt, that hate and fever over a few little lines in a book that most of Islam ignores, and your protectionist nature of Christianty is what going to make you commit a hateful act and bring your very worst fears to bear fruit.
You are being played on and turned into a radical Christian, perhaps you may even go around bombing abortion clinics, like some radical christians do?
Religion clouds the mind, hate clouds the mind, keep your morals, treat others how you would be treated. Love one another. Leave the religion and it’s brainwashing on the side of the road of life.
Don’t let anyone turn you radical for any reason, you’ll just end up dead or in prison.
If your analysis is correct, “Dr. Shrink,” mankind would be nothing more than a herd of animals that thought they had more of a society than they really do..
Sounds about right.
I get really tired of this “Mac Religion” slant the media constantly put on us. We choose a different computer platform, that’s all. Hardly worth sending in the Spanish Inquisition is it?
Bigotry plain and simple.
Joel:
Killing a certain person (eg that of a certain faith) for possesion of something (eg land) is murder – you have intent. Lets just get that straight.
In light of the 2000+ year old claims to land – any chance the native American tribes (or Australian tribes) can get their land back? Would it be ok for them to kill to get their land back? Be careful with blanket claims to justify actions – be prepared to suffer the logical consequences. If you now claim the native American tribes (or Australian tribes) don’t have rightful claim due to a technicality, then the same can be said about the territory disputes in the middle east (or anywhere else for that matter).
Actually atheism is not a religion, by definition it is the lack of a religious belief system. Agnostics believe in something, just not in organised religions. If you are trying to suggest that ANY belief constitutes a religion of sorts then can I start a religion based on my belief that green is the best colour (sorry color for the Americans)? Athiests do not congregate and espouse rules for their lack of faith in anything – they are not a religious movement.
The facts do remain. Religions of ALL persuasions are not bad. However, BAD people do evil things, and then use religion (quite wrongly) as a justification. The also rely on the fact that people of other faiths are inherently fearful and prejudiced of others. So not only do they terrorise us with violent acts, but they terrorise our faith and trust in other perfectly decent human beings.
well, i don’t even think september 11 was done by muslims. We all know that american media isn’t too ‘reliable’, but the main reason that i don’t belive that muslims did it is because i’ve done some research on the internet, and many building field experts said that the twin towers colaspe was imposible without a bomb explosion.
and also some suspicion :
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html
After reading this site i PROMISE you that you will change your mind.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/schoolvideo.html
Some people religiously believe that there is a God(s) and some religiously believe that there aren’t.
You forgot the third bunch, Agnostics, those smart enough to realize we all really don’t know for sure.
Asma, apparently fails to understand that civilized people could not care less about keeping halal or what computer one chooses to purchase. However, civilized people do not approve of murder, maiming, and mayhem perpetuated under the guise of religious obligation.
Comparing Mac users to those who practice, encourage, or acquiesce to terrorism is absolutely stupid. The fact is the vast majority of Moslems who do not actively participate in terrorism lack the moral courage to fight against it. Civilized people are not willing to support or engage cowards and hypocrites.
Arygaetu:
Unfortunately, most “moderate”, “compassionate”, or “caring” Moslems have not put into action what they and their religious apologists and political leaders so vigorously profess in the name of “true” Islam. The lack of any real commitment to slow or stop terrorism is an overwhelming testimony to their blatant hypocrisy.
mathew24, no one is asking you to be associated with the Islam religion. However, as a good christian I am sure you follow the example of Jesus, and don’t judge others, or treat them differently because they aren’t the same as you, or don’t think the way you think.
I was rasied as a good roman catholic and we were taught that only roman catholicism is the TRUE christianity – I really do hope you are one of us mathew24 – or as far as the roman catholic church is concerned, despite being a christian (even a good one) you are damned – remember we are the only church with direct links back to Jesus – or so they say.
I hope you see the sarcasm in that last paragraph. It is exactly this type of religious bigotry (and many more examples about the Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist and other faiths) that I abhor. I haven’t even touched on the violence against other human beings sanctioned by certain members of the christian faith against African Americans (KKK), gays, doctors performing LEGAL proceedures (most/all of the bible belt in the USA) and others.
The mission of that web site you directed us to is mostly correct, but I think it needs editing to be more inclusive and useful/true – my additions are in CAPS and deletions in brackets ( ):
“THE TRUE Faith Freedom International echoes the voice of RELIGIOUS (Muslim) dissidents that strive for freedom of faith and freedom from Faith in RELIGIOUS (Islamic) countries. We are against Hate, not Faith. We revere human rights not human beliefs. We endeavor to be factually correct, not politically correct. The only way to confront ALL (Islamic) terrorism is to eradicate the ideology behind it. As long as this reality is overlooked more lives will be lost and the world will not know peace. We will not achieve peace by upholding lies.”
Instead of being a christian/muslim/buddhist/hindi etc mac/windows/linux etc user. Try being a plain and simple HUMAN BEING.
When we ALL shed our religious dogma and recognise this irrifutable, FACT, that we are ALL human, and we have to share and nuture this amazing blue planet called earth, we will actually start living lives more in tune with what all those religions are supposedly trying to teach us. You know “love thy neighbor”, “don’t kill”, “don’t steal” etc.
And of course – keep using Macs. Just don’t judge us evil, wintel terrorists for our ignorance. Yes I know I am unclean – I plan on converting soon – can I be saved?
Peace be with you/us ALL.
Examine the fruit and you will know what type of plant you are looking at.
Clearly, the fruit of Islam is volence and terrorism. Of all the terrorist activity in the world in the last decade, 99% of it has been carried out by muslims. Is this coincidence? Are muslims that confused about what their religion teaches? Give me a break! These people are trained in hatred and violence. I have heard some muslims saying that Islam is a religion of peace. Show me the fruit. I see death, war, terrorism, torture, violence, exploitation and abuse.
People who deny that the horror of September 11 was carried out by muslims are putting their head in the sand and perhaps they will be the next victims of these hate-filled people.
I am offended that anyone would compare me to a muslim, simply because I choose to use a Macintosh. The similarities are few and far between.
Average Mac Zealot, by sitting and judging other much poorer societies by standards that they cannot possibly even be aware of, you show your true ignorance. If you went to an average muslim country and saw how they live, you wouldn’t be surprised that they aren’t jumping up and down demanding the terrorists to stop, because most of them DON”T KNOW IT’S HAPPENING. In countries where they do have the infrastructure, you’ll be pleasantly surprised just how much condemnation of terrorist actions happen.
I’m sure you’re an intelligent person, but please wake up to yourself.
loganson
Terrorism can be carried out by states as well as militia groups and individuals. The fruit of Christianity and Judaism is apparently also violence and terrorism when you add it all up.
So much crap is written by people about muslims that probably don’t even know anyone of that faith. Violence is the problem, not one particular religion. Whether that’s weddings in Iraq being bombed by smart missiles, Israeli soldiers shooting children, or islamic extremists using airliners as weapons changes nothing.
Wierd analogy. One question tho. Will Islam accept a two button mouse?
who’s got a better marketshare…
muslims right? because new ones are born every year at a faster rate than macs are sold?
okay okay.. installed base, then?
I don’t understand the logic that Muslims are at fault, because they have not stopped fanatical evil people that CLAIM to act as part of their faith.
ALL religions have always had fanatical zealots that CLAIM to act on behalf of their faith to do evil things.
When a doctor is killed for performing a medical proceedure that he/she is legally able to perform by a evil person claiming to perform the will of their Christian God, are ALL the christian people, even if they abhor the act, but fail to stop those people, condoning the act?
When an evil person claiming to act in the Jewish faith kills others due to religious differences, are we to condmen ALL Jews, even if they condemn it, but fail from preventing the reoccurance of the act in the future?
When an evil person kills in the name of any religion are simply trying to justify their evil actions to a higher cause. Every other person that is part of that faith is NOT responsible for that act.
When are we going to stop saying a Muslim killed this many jews, a Christian killed this many Muslims (Those Iraqis killed in custody were of the Islamic faith), or this many Jews killed this many Christians or whatever.
Simple fact is it is HUMANS killing HUMANS. The reason we devalue these deaths is we put a label on them. Many people in the “christian west” probably think a “few Iraqis doesn’t matter – they killed so many of us”. Firstly that isn’t proven – Terrorists come from ALL countries and faiths. But the fact is it’s that same thinking that is used by evil people in the Middle East – “a few infedels – what does it matter, they have killed so many of our people”. And so the cycle continues.
When we lose the religious dogma of ALL religions, and recognise eachother as human beings equal to eachother and “indivisible, with liberty and justice for all” we will learn that killing anyone for what we think is right just perpetuates the problem.
We should also stop making snide remarks about wintel users, it just encourages them to make snide remarks about Mac users. See the analogy works on this level too.
Respect eachother – it’s so much less stressful!
Response to Hey Matt:
1) The crusades: Just to say that I am a Christian does not mean that they don’t make mistakes. As a matter of fact a group of Christians followed a few years ago the route of the crusaders to Israel and asked the Muslims and Jews for forgiveness.
2) ‘The bible has more hateful speech of then the Koran’: plain nonsense, and it certainly ain’t doctrine.
3) ‘Slaying of unbelievers’: again not doctrine, although in the bible wars do occur as means to overcome evil, still it is the last resort.
4) If people do not turn from their sin, they will be lost, no matter if they are a Christian or not. That’s why Jesus came and died for our sins, in/through Him we receive forgiveness of sin.
5) ‘Being full of hate’/Love your enemy. I can assure you that I try to love ‘my enemy’ as much as possible. But I do know the true source of Islam and he ain’t my friend and he is old. Hate comes from the enemy of God: satan, he is the only true enemy of mankind. Every human being must try to avoid to be manipulated by him.
God bless you all,
if I offended enybody, please forgive me, however the truth must be told: John 14:6
Matthew 24
It is true that Muslims are misunderstood. They have tried to make it clear that they hate us, want us dead and our nation destroyed. They attacked us on our own shores. They targeted women and children. They are training terrorist within our country and abroad with the purpose of taking us down. And inspite of all of this we still think they are wonderful people who just want peace. What do they have to do to convince us that they are declaring war on us? We are so blind!
I just can’t BELIEVE all this controversy and fighting just because people think that the invisible guy their group talks to is better than the invisible guy the other groups talk to. Come on, get real. Or at least like try and be more accepting. Let other groups talk to the invisible guy they want to. No biggy.
loganson. Once again, let’s make the point. MUSLIMS didn’t attack your country. TERRORISTS did. MUSLIMS don’t want your nation destroyed. TERRORISTS do. VIOLENCE is the problem, not MUSLIMS.
I don’t want to sound condescending, but can you now please engage your brain?
Jesus invisible!?
Dumbest article ever… Poor analogy, very poor. Comparing an operating system preference to religious beliefs is really stupid. Keep the political crap off your site MDN! We come here for Mac news!
After 9/11 there have been at least 400 terrorist attacks in the world by people who happen to be muslim. Muslims themselves can be wonderful people, only their faith is based on deception through the deceiver.
dint compare some muslims to mac users. muslims will do anything for there fucked religion, lol yes they are enemy and i totaly agree with Glick7, they merdered thousend of people and what uou expect us to be nice to them?? ye right, they really should burn in hell!!!
aw forgot dont’t think they have hell in there religion.
When was the last time you saw a G5 fly into a building murdering thousands of people? Dumb article anyway.
A very US-centric article. Muslims might be in the minority in America, but they make up over a quarter of the world’s population. And the vast majority obviously are not terrorists.
However, as with the Islamic nation, it could be said that worldwide Mac users form a “Mac nation” of 25 million.
PLEASE READ AND SEE THE VIDEO!!!!!!
I PROMISE YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION AND KICK YOUR OWN ASS!!!!
UTNWO The greatest Hoax in history 911
Date: Friday the 31st of October, 2003
It is quite remarkable how the truth is initially ridiculed,fought,and later accepted as fact.Information regarding 911 being a government setup surfaced immediately,but were dismissed immediately by Washington’s hierachy,including President Bush,and never questioned or investigated by the media elite.Few stories here and there appeared,but were quickly ignored.
However,yesterday on Canadian national TV,a documentary linking Sep 11th to the elite members of this current murderous administration was aired for the very first time in North America.Hopefully this will give this growing movement a significant push to seriously investigate the true architects of Sep11th.Here is one of the most startlingling documentaries you will ever see.
On Video
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5103.htm
HERE IS ONE OF THE MOST STARTLINGING DOCUMENTARIES YOU WILL EVER SEE.
On Video
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5103.htm
Macintosh users are not a religion. Macintosh users are not a cult.
But, come on, us Macintosh users should at least apologize to all the PC Windows users out there for having an enjoyable computing experience; and actually liking our computers, a whole lot!
it is sad to hear so such hate from the hearts of my fellow humans, wow so being that I am muslim born in this country, does that mean I wanted bomb the twin towers too. I am one who wanted a good friend of mine’s both dead!! yes indeed I am for I am a muslim. Ignorance is truly bliss. I shall not judge any of the hateful things being said, for in the end no one esle but God will be the judge of how we have lived our lives.
P.S. the people who destryoed the twin towers, are burning in hell! Islam condemns suicide!! It is in every and any Koran every published!
wow so being that I am muslim born in this country, does that mean I wanted bomb the twin towers too. I am one who wanted a good friend of mine’s both Parents dead!!*
I’m pretty amazed at how judgmental people are on all sides of this issue. Every religion (and I, like the Supreme Court, consider atheism a religion) has its fanatics that take teachings out of context and use them to justify evil. I’m a Christian by my own choice. That doesn’t mean that I’m out to judge anyone and everyone (sorry Aryu, but if we met on the street and I knew who you were, I would greet you kindly like I would anyone else). There are a lot of muslims and christians who actually practice what they preach, none of them do it perfectly, but lots of us are trying very hard. I’m a Christian because I believe it is the Truth. It seems that a lot of the people on this forum have studied the fanatical few and judged religions based on that. Maybe if you spent more time studying the teachings themselves you’d be in a better position to talk about the various religious views. I’m not making strong anti-islam statements because I haven’t studied islam, so there’s a good chance I’d be wrong. I have studied Christianity, and it is obvious that most of you haven’t.
Anyway, the Iraq prison revelations have removed any shred of legitimacy [sic], however tenuous it may have been, of the Iraq war. Why blame [all] “Muslims” for 9/11 but attribute the prison abuses to a misguided few? How can you label a “terrorist” — one who pays the ultimate price, makes the ultimate sacrifice of his life, a coward? Is it because his act results in the death/suffering of innocent victims? That is a one-sided view.
The soldier goes into battle with the expectation of surviving the experience; the suicide bomber does not. The soldier may willingly sacrifice his life for the survival of his comrades, but I doubt if he’d do it for the ideological basis of the war. So what drives the “terrorist” if not the death/suffering of his own people?
The solution is to address the underlying injustices. The alternative is to inflict even more death/suffering to those who are already oppressed to the extreme. Religion has nothing to do with it, other than to satisfy the needs of the bigoted.
Perhaps the Mac fanatics would be less fanatical if the Microsoft monopoly was broken up; or if Gates stopped throwing the word “innovation” [sic] around in indignation when all he meant was… well, you know what he meant.
Religion will be around for a long while — just as Microsoft will be — until people start thinking freely and deeply and logically. They they’ll come to the realization that they’ve been “smoked” all this time.
Matthew 24.
As a Christian who preaches tolerance, you are showing absolute ignorance with your statements.
You seem to forget why there are catholic and protestant?
You seem to ignore the crusaders barbaric crimes (in the name of your faith)
Who offered refuge to Christians and Jews when the crusaders massacred everyone? Do you know the answer to that?
I suggest you have a thorough look at history before you draw your conclusions.
Plus, 9/11 is a terrorist attack not a religious war. Don’t victimize yourself more than you should. You (US) in result of the 9/11 have killed more and caused more damage in the world.
Please, don’t get me started with religions, it sickness me to hear the arrogance of such statements told with heavy ignorance.
No no, we’re the good one, they are the bad one. Well, screw that and get informed before you exhibit your fake pride.
Kindness, tolerance, cleverness are universal qualities that have nothing to do with religion Mr.
Lost in this discussion is that the writer is a stone FOX:
http://www.asmahasan.com/about.html
That almost obviates the fact that she is full of crap. Oh well, if there is nothing to write about, make something up.
Hey Matt: In the interest of a fair an balanced look at history, you should try to recall the Islamic expansion dating from the 8th century to the 15th century when Islam was spread throughout northern Africa and the Iberian Peninsula by the sword. The Crusades were partly a way to “strike back”. Doesn’t make it right, but it does provide context.
If anyone should have a beef with Muslims, it should be about their lack of “evolution” on the whole. Granted there are a few Muslim cultures with equal rights for women, on the whole they are sorely lacking in justice and equality. They haven’t “evolved” with the rest of the world mainly due to a feeling of fear of the West, much like Japan in the early 19th century and China in the 15th century. Hard to foster change in a climate where women are treated like 3rd or 4th class citizens, to put it mildly. Perhaps we could start by exporting Macs in large quantities, aka shock and awe,….
Simple1:
Like I said before many Muslims are wonderful people.
I reject the Muslim faith for 2 reasons:
1) common sense.
2) divine revelation.
The fact that I reject the Muslim faith does not mean in any sense that I hate muslims, btw ignorance is not a blessing neither is deception.
The true God reveals the truth to anybody who wants to know the Truth.
looking at the video,
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5103.htm
i’m starting to believe that muslims had nothing to do with sept 11…
Bush: F***ing osama attacked us, let’s attack them. oooh, there’s Oil here………
Bush: F***ing Iraq has WMD and is a treat to world peace. Let’s invade them. my luck, another oil well…
Bush: if i’m not mistaken, Syria is hiding some terorists. i wonder if we co-incedently find sone oil there….
To Boeing777:
1) I did comment before concerning the crusade, please read all my posts.
2) A Christian should show proper respect to any human being, that does not mean that he/she has to accept other religions as truth, in fact I don”t. Truth excludes contrary views.
3) About tolerance: God does/did not tolerate sin in my life that is why I had to repent, like everybody else needs to.
4) Jesus is The Truth and if you know the Truth, He ( The Truth ) will set you free.
One remark: I am not a US citizen.
The comment of ‘looking at the video’ is not mine!!!!!!!!!!!!
It sickens and saddens me to no end to see the kind of tin hat conspiracy theories thrown around as fact. Will we ever know the whole truth? Hell no. But spitting on the memories of the 3000 Victims of 9/11, plus the countless others who have died as a result of terrorism through the years.
What’s more, I am sick and tired of people saying “This doesn’t represent True Islam!” and “Islam does not teach such things!” Bull. Anyone who has read the Koran knows there are passages that actually DO teach such things.
Explain the following…
“When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.” Surat Mohammed:4 (Source: Healing Iraq Weblog)
There are tons of passages such as these, and yes, there are several in the bible such as selling your child into slavery, killing someone in the name of God for some heiracy or such, but there are some major differences. Islam is the only religion that is used by radicals to literally justify their actions. The reason is obvious, the inclusion of these passages, even though the stories they refer to are so outdated as to no longer be relevant to todays strife, leads to the perversion of the religion for the benefit of muderers, thugs and evil minds. Islam is a religion of peace, but only if you look at half the Koran. The faith has to evolve, and cast out the passages that cite such horrendous acts that can be used as excuses for murder. No matter how loudly you people say we should get rid of religion, it’ll never happen. Religion and Faith is here to stay, but it MUST evolve if there is ever to be real peace.
Blind Faith: Muslims, like Jews and Christians, must own up to problems in their holy book.
Muslim Refusenik: Website for Irshad Manji
Zeyad’s Healing Iraq Weblog
Zeyad says basically this in his Weblog, “My purpose was to point out that Islam indeed excuses such barbaric acts. This is not the same as saying that all Muslims believe in such acts or commit them, moderate Muslims exist, but Islam is not moderate. Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists have not deviated from Islam, in fact all their practices are derived from the Quran and Hadith.
“So yes, Islam is the problem here. Poverty, economic conditions, abuse by so called colonialism, and political frustration are not. Similar conditions elsewhere in the world have not prompted non-Muslims to commit suicide bombings or fly planes into towers. Islam, along with favourable cultural, tribal, and social values existing in the Arab world has prompted that drive. Islam and the Quran alone are not the root cause.” [Emphasis mine]
This does not mean that all Muslims are willing to do the same thing. There are many that quietly dismiss such teachings as non-points, just as many fellow christians dismiss some old passages in the Bible as no longer appropriate for our day & age.
Matthew 24.
I read every of your comments, trust me, I don’t post a reply to someone just for the heck of it.
Please, don’t talk like a priest when someone challenges you on your knowledge.
You mentioned commonsense yet you don’t seem to have much of it.
Again, humanity should show proper respect to any human being. Christianity is just one religion. I told you before; manners are universal qualities not a religious virtue.
Jesus is the truth to YOU. Please, allow others to think otherwise. What you say is not divine and certainly far from any commonsense.
Peace.
You liberal apologists are way off again. In your minds it’s always someone else’s fault that a person is poor or uneducated. In you minds people are never responsible for their actions unless it’s George Bush. Bush can do nothing right in your twisted minds. Crusades were the answer to brutal, murdering, rape and pillaging by Muslims! Present situation is a direct result of the Muslim actions. They don’t want to catch their terrorists. They like seeing US citizens and Jews blown up. Sure you have a few imans condemn terrorists. But not a large quantity of Muslims. If Muslims account for such a large part of the work population there should be many, many, more condemning terrorism and pushing for equal rights for women. We’ll do it for them if they don’t do it for themselves.
Hey Boeing777, the Bible calls every saint to be a priest ( 2 Peter 2:9 ).
If you did read all my comments you must have read that I did not justify the crusades.
God is The ( universal ) Truth.
If you know God, you will know peace.
Bless you, Boeing777.
Apple is the sort of brand that people make their own. A few years ago there was an article on the Net comparing Macs with blacks. Others see similarities with owning a BMW. I have even read comparisons between Macs and Christians in the Roman era. Now Apple is compared to Islam. I can assume that there is somebody reading this who thinks that owning a Mac is like being a Jew. Haven’t the Mac users suffered enough?
My PowerMac tells other people something about me in a similar way that my appearance does in public. What those people see and what I see in the PowerMac are not necessarily the same thing. It is the same with my appearance and in Asma Gull Hasan’s case, her faith.
Christainity has a black, horrible history of prosecution. Does that mean Christians are bad people? No, of course not.
You do enjoy talking like a priest don’t you?
Rest assured, I know what peace is and I don’t look at Christianity to understand the meaning of peace.
peace is not what the US are doing to many Muslim countries nowadays.
peace is not a rejection of someone else’s faith
Peace.
Hello All
Good to see some excellent debate and discussion taking place – especially since such free and unregulated debate simply does not take place in the mainstream media on any subject of importance.
Some of my fellow Mac users find my original comments to be not to their liking – and say so. That’s great! Such debate is simply not possible in most Muslim countries except in an anonymous forum like this.
To respond to some of you who take the “there are good and bad guys in every religion” approach… I understand and agree with you to a point, but you miss the main point… No Christian would say that McVeigh’s actions were Christian or supported in any way by any Christian theology.
In the Muslim religion, there is great debate about whether the September 11th hijackers were acting properly according to Islam. Significant numbers of Muslims believe that the Sept 11th massacres were to Allah’s glory…. and by “significant numbers”, we are talking hundreds of millions of Muslims worldwide who believe that the killing of non-Muslims is fully justified and is part of Allah’s plan for the world.
Until Muslims have their own “Reformation” and bring their religion into the civilized world – free from the barbarism, slavery, and oppression of women and minorities – we will continue to be at war with what is arguably a force dedicated to imposing a barbaric religion by force throughout the world.
It is a religious war carried on by millions of fanatics worldwide – with the moderates or modern Muslims silenced by violence or threats of violence from members of their own religion.
Finally – it doesn’t really matter what a religion SAYS it is, and it doesn’t matter what anyone SAYS. The truth about any person, organization or religion is in what the religion DOES.
And what the Muslim religion DOES these days is acts of violence against innocent men, women and children on a worldwide scale – with the ultimate goal of imposing a fascist Islam everywhere.
Perhaps some of the readers would benefit from reading books like, “The Trouble with Islam” by Irshad Manji. Of course, such books are not available in any Arab country because there cannot be any serious discussion of Islam – even by adherents, and especially by mere women.
“Its a religious war. What part of that don’t you understand” – Ab Hussen, former terrorist and jihadist – now a Christian.
Peace: As long as sin rules, there will be no peace. ( – with God )
And… by the way… Saudi Public Television has a wonderful family show designed to instruct husbands and wives in their duties according to Islam. In this episode, our friendly Islamic family counsellor cautions that husbands must only beat their wives when they have good reason, and then only after other punishments have failed.
The counsellor also shows the proper size and type of stick that the husband should use.
Remember… this IS mainstream Arabic Islam. This IS the perspective that is held as normal in that part of the world. This IS Islam in Arabia…
http://www.memri.org/video/
Excerpt from the TV show transcript…
Guest: And if she persists and he gives her another chance during this same period and she continues for months, and sometimes even for years, with her refusal and rebellion here is revealed the wisdom of Islam: another means must be introduced. This is the means of the not-hard beatings, and the condition ‘not hard’ appears in the texts, it is not an interpretation. It is said in the Hadiths of the Prophet that we are talking of ‘not-hard’ beatings�
Host: What is the difference between ‘hard’ and ‘not-hard’?
Guest: Hard beatings are those that leave marks on the body or on the face. Thus, beating on the face is prohibited, because the face is a combination of the features of beauty, as it is said. It is forbidden to beat the face, it is forbidden to administer blows that leave fractures or wounds this is what our sages have said in their books.
MDN is RUINING this site with all the political posts. This is a MAC site, and I for one (but probably not the only one) may stop coming to it if MDN insists on posting IDIOTIC articles like this one, or “flame bait” articles on Bush/Kerry. Too bad, the rest of the time this is a pretty good site. Perhaps the advertisers can help rein this in? Do they really want their products associated with the various anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, anti-American and just plain hate postings that result on these threads??? (Thank goodness for responsible advertisers, when they ACT.)
most christians i know are pricks..
christianity is like smoking..
no one picks it up when they reach a level of adult rationality.. but they’re always pulled in young
PS. religion is not about logic, but faith. so my comments are not based on ‘god is invisible so i don’t believe’
God uses a Mac, a Classic Mac at that. The devil uses a Dell. And the Virgin Mary, an HP.
All Hadith is against Islam. Any muslim who incorporates Hadith into their faith is going against the word of God. Mohammed as a prophet was the messenger of God. Allah makes the rules, not Mohammed. The Koran says it is the complete word of God and not to be added to in any way. This means all Hadith is herecy, whether it is truly the word of Mohammed or not.
So if Arab men treat Arab women badly thanks to Hadith, they are not following Islam, but some stupid Arab tradition of wifebeating.
Anybody who judges Muslims without having spent time in a Muslim country interacting with the people is just like Muslims judging Americans who has never been to this country. That is what makes atrocity possible.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Mac User, I found this a pretty fair discussion of a very important subject mostly by intelligent people, some with great links that add to the discussion.
Much more interesting, imo, than the “Steve can do no wrong 95% of the world is stupid” theme that predominates otherwise.
Better to ignore the threads that upset you maybe? I know that passing by the ipod threads saves me a BUNCH of time.
Anyone here who is like “Muslims are terrible! They are the scourge oif this planet! They are whats wrong!” needs to take a step back. First, where is all this hate coming from? Second, isn’t that what Germany said about the Jews? Whenever you lump a group of people en masse into the root of your problems, you should realize that you are in the process of becoming a monster…
Mike,
most Christians I know are responsible and caring people.
Dave H. said…
“All Hadith is against Islam. Any muslim who incorporates Hadith into their faith is going against the word of God. Mohammed as a prophet was the messenger of God. Allah makes the rules, not Mohammed. The Koran says it is the complete word of God and not to be added to in any way. This means all Hadith is herecy, whether it is truly the word of Mohammed or not.
So if Arab men treat Arab women badly thanks to Hadith, they are not following Islam, but some stupid Arab tradition of wifebeating.”
Dave, it’s great to hear your views about Hadith. A shame that BinLaden and his kind don’t have your interpretation and understanding of Islam.
Unfortunately, as you know, you couldn’t possibly speak negatively of Hadith in Saudi Arabia, Egypt or throughout the Arabian world without risking death.
As you also know, the hardliners who disagree with you use violence to discourage any rational discussion within Islam.
I wish you and your fellow modern Muslims would have the courage to initiate public discussion of Islam’s problems – but I understand the tallest tree feels the woodsman’s axe first.
God Bless you and your family.
Glick7
DaveH,
I disagree with you on this. You should know what you are talking about.
The way Arabs treat their wives (women) is a cultural thing not religious. Arabs had treated women this way before the arrival of the Islamic faith. In truth, Islam has liberated women in the Arab society and offered them the same rights men used to enjoy at that time. – That was the heresy for most Arabs at that time.
Today, many Arab countries still cherish those traditions and sadly mix them with religion. Of course, we don’t make the effort to understand the ordeal and thus we blame the religion instead.
It is unfortunate that we look at Islam in such a narrow way. This religion allowed the renaissance to happen.
In a global world such as the one we’re in today, for many, the medias are those who think for the majority. So, no one should be surprised as how narrow-minded we became.
Peace
We must make a difference between Muslims and their faith. I do respect Muslims but I don’t accept their faith to be true. It does not bring freedom from sin but a heavy religious yoke.
Just the way you should make a difference between religious and religion Matthew24
No body is expecting you to accept their faith to be true and please, allow them to not accept your faith to be true either.
Heavy religious…. well, get a mirror and look at the catholic and protestant. Don’t talk as if you were a saint or some sort of a Wiseman. Our history is as dirty as the worst toilet ever.
People are not called to be religious but to have a relationship with God.
Christianity in the form of dead religion is not from God.
Only God defines truth, we are called to get to know The Truth.
Truth is being revealed through the ( Holy ) Spirit ( of God )
If you like it or not through redemption by the sacrificial offering of His Life, I am called a saint. ( Although I am absolutely not perfect, even when I am called to be holy/perfect )
Glick7, I’m not a muslim, my above post is the result of many late-night conversations with muslim friends (who normally laugh at the me whilst we’re having them, because I can be the only one in the room who drinks). I have read the Koran (as well as the Bible) as I feel that (a) knowledge never hurts, and (b) it is only by attempting to understand a religious text that you ever get close to understanding the minds of those who follow it. As I’ve said above, too much crap gets written about muslims by people who’ve never even met one.
You are right that the majority of muslims are too scared to voice their opposition to terrorists in their own states, but then I have to ask why the West loves the Al-Saud family so much and allows the status quo in Saudi Arabia to continue when so much abuse is being sanctioned? Or in North Eastern Pakistan for that matter, where Extreme Islam is on the rise? The sad answer is that the foreign policies of Western Governments are there to support arms dealers and arms companies, and whilst the Al-Sauds and Musharraf have plenty of money to spend on British tanks and American fighter planes, Washington and London will toe the line. In the meantime, thousands of innocent people keep dying, and we all blame the muslims. Nice old world we live in, isn’t it?
RE MIKE,
I became a Christian at 27 when I realized I didn’t know anything (ironic huh?). Since then things make a lot more sense…
…Like why people get upset when you say Jesus is the only way. In a really small way it’s like being reminded of something you have been avoiding, but that is at the back of your mind/heart you know is something you will have to face.
It wouldn’t bother anyone reading this to say “If you don’t believe in the future Martians coming to earth” then you are lost. You would just think it ridiculous. But I bet it’s not the same when someone tells you of God’s love for you through Jesus, and that he desires for you to turn to him and be healed. You may say outloud it is ridiculous, but I guarantee there is a seed of doubt in your conscience.
“yet, faith comes from listening to this message of good news, the Good News about Jesus Christ.” Romans 10:17
2: The Muslims who lived there for the last 2000 years with Christians and Jews in peace are denied their land and holy sites in which they believe.
Islam was introduced by Mohammad in the 7th century. Muslims could hardly live with Jews and Christians for 2000 years, they didn’t even exist then. What is it with people who mangled history to suit their views?
wow, people are ignorant. the KKK is a christian group. so i guess all christians are evil?
most muslims believe the terrorist and the killing are wrong. they don’t believe those are true muslims any more than most christians think the KKK are true christians.
i guess being stupid and ignorant is the popular thing these days. makes me sick.
hey here’s another techno-political link to Spymac about the Pentagon not allowing phone that can take digital photographs in Iraq-
http://www.spymac.com/
The truth will…hey! We don’t the Truth getting in the way of our agendas!!!
Actually, reading the posts is pretty amusing. It seems there is no middle ground. Why do people take everything as black and white? Those who says muslims don’t want the destruction of twin towers forgot about Egyptians and Palestinians dancing on the street, celebrating and passing out candies. Those who says muslims are to take the blame forgot about the muslims who died in the towers, condemned the attack and prayed for the victims.
There are problems with the interpretation of Islam, just as there are problems with the interpretation of Christianity, Judaism, etc.. No need to be politically correct about it. Koran has contradictions just as the Bible has. Defending blindly at any religion is just as bad as blindly blaming the religion. Read a book called “The Trouble with Islam” by Irshad Manji. It’s an attempt to dissect at what is or isn’t a problem.
Christian means ‘to be like Christ’.
That’s the test most of us fail, me not excluded.
Matthew24, you’re talking like a religious fanatic person. Wake up the reality, even if you try all your life you cannot be someone else. Praise the lord for what you were given and be happy the way you are. Don’t attempt to be someone you can’t be.
Nobody is perfect and certainly not someone who explicitly rejects other beliefs
“Nobody is perfect and certainly not someone who explicitly rejects other beliefs”
*blush* Aww shucks!
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Thanks for thinking that I am perfect. As much as I want to admit that, I’ve got to be humble and say that I am not.
You’ve done that joke
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That would be a test everyone would fail, but it’s ok to aspire towards a “perfect” being, or Chirst-like. there’s nothing wrong in that.
i am both lol – but there are some bad posts up there – not good, not good – single minded bush brain washed idiots
If God ‘inspired’ more then one faith he would be shrizofranic (spelling!?), He ain’t.
Jesus came to show the true character of God.
You may call me a fanatic, but I am 100% serious about the most important issue in life: Eternal Life.
Def. : Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. ( Jesus in John 17:3 )
I am gonna sleep, bless you all, I do appreciate your comments, it makes me watch my faith more closely. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…
Hey there is more in life then computers, but you fellow Mac-users are dear to me. See you.
Matthew 24
Boeing, sorry but I didn’t read your earlier post addressed to me until just now. I’m of the opinion that Hadith exists simply so Islam and pre-Islamic Arabian customs could be mixed together, sort of like how the Romans absorbed pagan festivals into Christianity to increase its acceptance.
Sorry to get all serious again.
“You’ve done that joke
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I have, haven’t I?
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Well, just think of it as a re-run with the summer schedule coming up. OTOH, much that has happened here is a re-run too… like: iPod killer articles, Thurrot’s mental states, Bush bashing (hey, that’s another fave), Middle-East conflict (of all things to be discussed in a computer forum). I figured if anyone got a 2 for the price of 1 for the same thing, I could get away with it too. AND I WAS THIS (distance between thumb and pointing finger: 1 cm) CLOSE!! Don’t you Brits forget anything?
Dave H:
Oh, I get it now, Dave! Those Muslims who cannot read or hear, those who have no access to radio or television or telephone or magazines or newspapers or DVD players or VHS players, those who have no ability to use to the web, those who are mentally deficient, those in comas or other states of sustained unconsciousness are permanently excused for being expected to defend freedom and liberty and human rights.
Oh, yeah, poor people are excused, too, because (according to you) poor people don�t have the capacity to make moral or ethical judgments. But please explain Dave how poverty is an excuse to maim and murder and absolves people from unrighteousness.
Also, explain how Muslims that had or have college degrees, had or have access to various media, and had or have the mental capacity to examine and assimilate new ideas and concepts choose terrorism as a justifiable means of religious and/or political expression?
Obviously educated and otherwise intelligent Muslims are just as capable of supporting terrorism and those with no education and few material possessions. So, what is the excuse of the enlightened Muslims who express abhorrence to terrorism, but fail to fight it? Cowardice? Fear? Laziness? How about hypocrisy?
Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc., etc., etc.
Which is the true faith? If there is a God and if God desires a vibrant and meaningful relationship with us as individuals then it seems logical that the prayer of a sincere seeker of truth would be rewarded with divine and merciful revelation.
So, ask God with desire for faith. Two minutes of sincere prayer can lead to newness of life and an eternity of bliss. Not a bad investment, huh?
Rumors of my existence are greatly exaggerated. Rumors of my parenthood are simply ludicrous. Let’s bring the subject back to something more real – the next G5.
I’m with Matthew24. He’s not talking like a religious fanatic, he’s talking like someone who knows and experiences God in his life. If you don’t want what he and I have got, that’s your choice. We’re not condemning you, that’s not our job. It is also not our job, though, to ignore what God has done in our lives or to keep it to ourselves. Jesus’ death was to take the debt that every imperfect person has to ultimately pay. If you choose to allow God to take that debt, then the debt is paid in full. Every organized religion teaches that there is a debt to pay. Christianity teaches that only God, through Jesus Christ, has paid that debt for us. All others teach that it’s up to you to pay through some form of ritual, labor, or other form. If that’s offensive to you, so be it. I accept it and am grateful to God for it.
“If God ‘inspired’ more then one faith he would be shrizofranic (spelling!?), He ain’t.
Jesus came to show the true character of God.” – Matthew24
Be careful. If God had inspired only one faith, then Christianity would have not existed. Christianity exists because of Jesus Christ who was a Jew. That begs the question, if God hadn’t inspired Judaism, then Jesus would have been a heretic? What a paradox! If it follows that God inspires more than one religions (and you accused God to be schizophrenic!), who can say that God didn’t inspire Islam?
The fact is, there are a lot of similarities between the 3 religions, e.g. all three acknowledge Abraham, Moses, etc.. All 3 worship the same God, in case you don’t know (Allah is the Arabic word for God).
Nobody; exactly!
Matthew, what do you know about Islam? Do you know that like you, they believe in Jesus and Mary? If your beliefs are true, why should theirs be false?
I bet you have never been to a Muslim country and know nothing about its history. This is not going to make your words weight much I’m afraid.
Peace
The absence of war or other hostilities.
An agreement or a treaty to end hostilities.
Freedom from quarrels and disagreement; harmonious relations: roommates living in peace with each other.
Public security and order: was arrested for disturbing the peace.
Inner contentment; serenity: peace of mind.
the last one says it all
untill every1 has inner contentment
there will be no PEACE
For those not schooled in such things, it is easy to be mislead about the three great monotheist religions and whether they all worship the same God.
Christianity and Judaism are essentially the same faith, following the same God (with the exception that Judaism corporately teaches that Christ was not their Messiah but instead are still looking for the fullfillment of Isaiah’s prophesies to this day.)
Allah was a pagan god of the astral religion of Arabia long before Muhammad was born. Islamic scholars generally agree that the Quaraysh tribe into which Muhammad was born was particularly devoted to Allah, the moon god, and especially to Allah’s 3 daughters who were viewed as intercessors between the people and Allah.
But there are other obvious proofs that Allah and Yahweh are two entirely different deities, one being a magnification of an ancient pagan god and the other the eternal God of the universe.
Here is brief primer on the major differences:
Jehovah ………………………….. Allah
___________________________________
knowable ……………………… unknowable
personal ………………………. impersonal
spiritual ……………………….. nonspiritual
trinitarian ……………………… unitarian
limited …………………………… unlimited (this takes some explaining)
trustworthy ……………………. capricious
love for man ………………….. no love for man
historically active ………….. historically non-active
attributes ………………………. no attributes
grace …………………………….. works
Theological scholars see no doctrinal similarity between the two Gods whatsoever. Believe or don’t believe in either God, that is your choice. But don’t be superficial and pretend that Muslims worship the God of the Bible. They do not.
-B
The god is born about December 25th, without sexual intercourse, for the sun, entering the winter solstice, emerges in the sign of Virgo, the heavenly Virgin. His mother remains ever-virgin, since the rays of the sun, passing through the zodiacal sign, leave it intact. His infancy is begirt with dangers, because the new-born Sun is feeble in the midst of the winter’s fogs and mists, which threaten to devour him; his life is one of toil and peril, culminating at the spring equinox in a final struggle with the powers of darkness. At that period the day and night are equal, and both fight for the mastery. Though the night veil the urn and he seems dead; though he has descended out of sight, below the earth, yet he rises again triumphant, and he rises in the sign of the Lamb, and is thus the Lamb of God, carrying away the darkness and death of the winter months. Henceforth he triumphs, growing ever stronger and more brilliant. He ascends into the zenith, and there he glows, on the right hand of God, himself God, the very substance of the Father, the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, upholding all things by his lifegiving power.
Charles Fran�ois Dupuis (1742-1809) — Origin of Worship
The Sun God
4004-AD
And the two Steves emerged from the garage holding their invention. And they saw that what they made was good. And they offered their miracle to the masses….
To the point that atheism is not a religion. While the SCOTUS has ruled that, for legal purposes, it is; in practicality it is more of a belief system or “faith”.
Ironically, in this respect it is similar to (or more properly, the mirror image of) fundamental Christianity (the original belief system taught by Jesus and the apostles – not the system of legalism that men have added to the teachings over the centuries).
“Religion” is most accurately described as man-made systems of DOING THINGS in order to get to heaven or Nirvana or some other state of being. Christianity teaches in BELIEVING as the only thing needed to get to heaven. Atheism’s only requirement is to believe in a specific form of NON-BELIEF.
Counter intuitive, you might say, but both are unique in the world of “religions” in that they ask nothing more of their adherents than to believe. I have known several atheists and they were more fervant in their belief that there is no God than Christians I have met who believe there is.
Cheers,
B
PLEASE EVERYONE WATCH.
PROOF!PROOF!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5103.htm
Just got out of bed,
if anybody would like to continue this conversation with me I prefer to do it through E-mail, we can exchange E-mail addresses at macrumors:
http://forums.macrumors.com/member.php?userid=5211
let me know,
have a nice day.
Many observers have suggested that Israel had foreknowledge of the 9/11 terrorists attacks. Some have even argued that they may have been behind the attacks.
Whoever you are this article shows that you’re wrong
http://emperors-clothes.com/news/probestop-i.htm
This article tears apart the claim that Osama bin Laden severed ties with the CIA and with the super rich bin Laden family. The article also includes the transcript of a BBC program in which the accusation is made that George Bush, Jr. suppressed FBI investigations of the bin Ladens.
We have demonstrated that normal air safety and air defense measures were not employed on September 11th. This is extraordinary because 9-11 was the only day that four airplanes were hijacked in the U.S., not to mention the only day that three planes crashed into key buildings in New York City and Washington, DC.
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/discussion_in_firehouse.mpg
BOMB
Average Mac Zealot. The flaw in your argument is that once again, you are equating all muslims with terrorists and their supporters. Therefore you obviously have never spoken to a muslim long enough to have a meaningful conversation on this topic. Every society and social group has it’s Angry Young Men. In the West they are more likely to riot at a G8 meeting. In the Middle East, with the constant Israel/Palestine war on their doorstep, they take more drastic action.
Whilst we are on the topic of condemnation, isn’t it funny how everyone who criticises the Bush administration over Iraq is deemed unpatriotic and pandering to terrorists? How is this different from a moderate muslim being slammed by their community for condemning terrorism? Of course, some of you won’t see the similarity there, because you can only ever see as far as your own opinions. Everyone who disagrees with you is just “wrong”.
And in answer to your main point, poverty is no excuse for maiming and murdering others, but considering we can’t get our own house in order on that one even with our wealth and education, it’s a little extreme to ask those living from hand to mouth in the desert to do so, yes? To criticise one group for an essential failing of the entire human race is just blatant hypocrisy, not to mention racism.
For anybody interested: online book of Islam vs Christianity:
http://charleswelty.net/1891833545.htm
>firehouse.mpg [Glick 7]
The upper floors collapsed on to the next floor below, triggering the collapse of that floor, and so on, in a chain reaction. Enough of this conspiracy BS. Yeah, there were two “bombs” — the planes and their fuel load.
>Atheism’s only requirement is to believe in a specific form of NON-BELIEF. [Beeblebrox]
There is no “requirement” because there is no formal group or rules. It requires no faith to be an atheist because there is no implausible premise that needs to be believed. Christianity requires “faith” because there is no substance or proof of the existence of a God. If you question God’s existence, the whole house of cards collapses.
The underlying basis for all con jobs is belief — faith. “Give me ten thousand and I’ll return you a thousand a week.” Believe the Bible is the word of God, because if you question it, or read it without prejudice, you’ll find that premise implausible.
Atheos: The Bible And Christianity – The Historical Origins
anthonymous is right in the sense that Christianity starts with faith, but God becomes reality through revelation through the Holy Spirit, and He is willing to communicate in our spirit or by dreams or whatever means He chooses.
Through revelation every aspect of life becomes logic ( good / evil ) , after this, faith is not longer based on believe but on facts. Jesus is a fact, He is The Truth if not He is the greatest lyer who ever lived and was foolish enough to go to the cross. ‘The fool on the hill.’, Paul mcCartney/The Beatles.
(G)(o)od / (D)evil
http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/48441.php
Pictures and EVEIDENCE that the twin towers would colaspe without any kind of bomb explosion.
http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/48441.php
Pictures and EVEIDENCE that the twin towers wouldn’t colaspe without any kind of bomb explosion.
http://www.bensys.mcmail.com/Islam.htm
SCIENCE PROVES ISLAM’s TRUTH.
This site shows ‘recent’ science discoveries that have been written in the Quran, which has not been MODIFIED since 2000 years ago. This shows that the Quran is the word form God.
Please read the site and prove to me that Islam is not the truth.
Oh, yeah. I would like like to say a special quote.
“Of all the bible out there, which is your favourite one??”
anthonymous
The last anthonymous post wasn’t mine but some troll hijacking my nickname. Easy to tell, his English isn’t “native.”
> anthonymous is right in the sense that Christianity starts with faith, but God becomes reality through revelation through the Holy Spirit, and He is willing to communicate [matthew24]
He doesn’t communicate. He can’t communicate. You can’t hear him, read him or see him. You can’t touch him. You think he communicates to you because you are totally deluded, brainwashed. He cannot appear at will; talk at will; make any kind of sign at will. There is no recent documented evidence of any God; just ancient fiction passed on as fact. There are no miracles. Hundreds of thousands go to Lourdes hoping for a miracle and get a statistical result close to nil. It is all a sham. I posted a link: read it if you dare.
>Pictures and EVIDENCE… [Glick7]
LOL … a good one! So all them office workers went to work that day and said: “Cool, we’re wired today.
Fake anthonymouse
So according to you, The Koran was written a whole 700 years before Mohammed lived. Either we have the biggest miracle and proof of God ever, or you are completely full of it. I wonder which…..
anthonymous,
The ‘science proves islam’s truth’ article you posted is really interesting. I’m very very suprised and quite fascinated that many scientific facts is actually written in the Qoran. I read through the whole site and every fact is quite right.
One of them:
“When the sky is torn apart, so it was (like) a red rose like ointment. Then which of the favours of your lord will you deny?”
From holy Quran Surat Ar-Rahman verses 37 & 38
And the picture of the The Cat’s Eye Nebula from NASA:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap991031.html
astonishing, i would say.
I always have been interested in my fellow muslim friends especially their strength to fast for a whole month. but today reading this article brings a whole new light.
<Rooney>
“Of all the bible out there, which is your favourite one??”
This ‘Fake anthonymous’ has a point. If i’m not mistaken there are many diffent bibles, more than 100 hundered i think (The new testement and the old testement to name a few). How can the word of god be different and changes?????
the qoran has only been booked around 1200 years ago. so get your facts right.
Heh heh… Wayne Rooney’s writing style is very close to the style of the page he talks about. Wayne Rooney = fake anthonymous? Anyway, that passage describes lava more than it describes the Cat’s Eye Nebula, which photo is probably not printed in real color anyway.
Anyway, last post for me — had enough of this rubbish. I’m outta here. Take my nick, Ahmed, or whoever you are.
macman, the different versions of the Bible come from the same original language writings. The Old and New Testaments are not different Bibles, they are combined to comprise the Bible. There are Bibles that are written in hundreds of different languages. They are different Bibles, they are different translations of the same original writings. “Fake anthonymous” didn’t have a point other than to show his ignorance on the subject. You happened to fall for it.
Sorry, “They are NOT different Bibles,…”
Mathew24 – “Jesus Invisible?”
Don’t try and tell me you actually SEE him. You are starting to scare me. Oh and spare me the wierd rationalizations of how you see him without really seeing him.
1) Jesus was visible.
2) He resurrected from the dead. ( still alive )
3) He IS The Lord God. (John 1:1, John 1:14)
4) He will come again:
a. ( John 14:3, Revelation 1:7-8 )
b. “I am coming soon.”: Revelation 22:20.
( and many more places in the scriptures)
And you see him when you talk to him? Or not?
Oh, enough already. No matter how many time you hijack someone’s handle and post that stupid link, that won’t make it true. Can you not blame all ills of the world to the Israelis? The bombings in Turkey, Spain, Morrocco, Saudi Arabia, the Phillipines, Chechnya, etc. must be the work of the Jews and infidel Americans, right?
FYI, when the Bali bombing happened, muslims cried that it was the Jews with the help of the Americans using mini nukes. It’s pretty clear now that a group of muslim did that in the name of Allah to kill the infidels. What happened to the “proofs” of mini nukes? Stop your conspiracy theories or giving legitimacy to them. Start admitting that terrorists did acts in the name of Allah. They drag the name of your religion through the mud, why are you defending them and shifting the blame instead of doing the right things.
I did not have this honor yet.
I didn’t think so. Well, Matthew24 I am sure your invisible friend is really neat but you should let other people have their own favorite invisible friends too. Come on, play nice.
–It would be great if MDN required login and password to these forums. The last post above attributed to me is clearly not mine since it contains Bush-hating speech.–
As for anthonymous’ assertion that atheism requires no belief system, I beg to hugely differ. Every single one of his posts was filled with the assuredness of a person totally convinced that Christianity is bogus. This is a belief of his and no amount of twisted logic can deny this.
Note the pronounced use of the word “belief” in the dicitonary.com definition:
atheism
n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God [syn: godlessness] [ant: theism] 2: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
anthonymous then says “It requires no faith to be an atheist because there is no implausible premise that needs to be believed.
YOU say it is implausible that there is a God while I say it is implausible that there is NO God. The evidence favors my viewpoint IMHO. But even if it did not, yours still requires a firm philosophical belief system.
Furthermore, there is clear evidence that Jesus Himself was the son of God.
I would challenge anyone who wants to sound literate on this subject to read both CS Lewis’ Mere Christianity and Lee Strobel’s The Case For Christ. The first is in the field of Apologetics and is required reading for anyone who wants to debate this subject above a Jr. High level of understanding. The second is by a legal journalist who acts as a devil’s advocate throughout the book to challenge the scholars he interviews.
Both are well worth the time for those who wish to intelligently debate the validity of Christianity.
-(the real) Beeblebrox
Unless someone’s favorite ‘invisible’ friend is real, it does not make much sense to me.
Jesus in Matthew 28:20:
And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
Yep Matthew24. Your invisible friend is real and everyone else’s is not real.
aaaah…..yeah. OK, whatever you say.
Oh Puh-lease, if I did offend you, I am sorry, please forgive me.
I am rational thinking guy, I do only believe in reality. I don’t want to fool myself and certainly not anybody else.
Bless you.
Not offended at all Matthew24. Nothing to forgive. You are totally free to believe whatever you want and everyone else should be also as long as it doesn’t lead to harming others as happened in the Crusades, the inquisition, The Holocost, 9-11, and George W. Bush’s war in Iraq.
Oh Puh-lease, Thanks for your kind words, I do respect everyone’s freedom, but I sure do hope that many will come to know the love of God and His willingness to forgive. If we in return will love God, we will certainly will be able to love one and another as we are supposed to do.
I think the other statement should be..
WHAT DOES MICROSOFT AND HITLER HAVE IN COMMON?
Answer: They both want/wanted to take over the world at ANY cost.
� The flaw in your argument is that once again, you are equating all muslims with terrorists and their supporters.�
No, I said that Muslims who choose not to fight terrorism are giving tacit approval for terrorism and are blatant hypocrites.
�Therefore you obviously have never spoken to a muslim long enough to have a meaningful conversation on this topic.�
I do not think that having a conversation with just any Muslim would be productive.
�Every society and social group has it’s Angry Young Men. In the West they are more likely to riot at a G8 meeting.�
What a lame excuse for malicious behavior. With your flawed logic civilized and righteous behavior is not expected from anyone and any barbaric and unholy act can be excused for what ever reason one wish to use. I suppose that if an angry white male pummels a Muslim this is, well, excusable. Also, many of the most fervent terrorists are middle-age and older which would seem to suggest that terrorism is not a young mans passion.
�In the Middle East, with the constant Israel/Palestine war on their doorstep, they take more drastic action.�
Another lame excuse. Killing, maiming, murdering, suicide are all acceptable because, well, because life�s a bitch.
�Whilst we are on the topic of condemnation, isn’t it funny how everyone who criticizes the Bush administration over Iraq is deemed unpatriotic and pandering to terrorists? How is this different from a moderate muslim being slammed by their community for condemning terrorism?�
Are you saying that the majority of Muslim are in favor of terrorism and browbeat the minority of good Muslims? This means the majority does support terrorism. Or, are you saying that the minority of Muslims supports terrorism and control the majority of all other Muslims. This means the majority is weak, fearful, and hypocritical.
�Of course, some of you won’t see the similarity there, because you can only ever see as far as your own opinions. Everyone who disagrees with you is just “wrong”.
People who resort to generalizations often cannot form a cogent argument.
And in answer to your main point, poverty is no excuse for maiming and murdering others, but considering we can’t get our own house in order on that one even with our wealth and education, it’s a little extreme to ask those living from hand to mouth in the desert to do so, yes?�
I am glad that you agree that poverty is no excuse for unrighteous behavior. There are many other people in the world as poor or poorer than those �in the desert� and who do not condone terrorism
�To criticize one group for an essential failing of the entire human race is just blatant hypocrisy, not to mention racism.�
Please explain how the failing of the human race disobliges the Muslims from using religious writings as excuses to kill and main others. Please explain how pointing out the cruelty espoused the Koran is racist. Isn�t the Koran the Muslim scripture? It is rather pitiful that someone would use the straw man of racism to avoid answering questions.
Exerpt from an article today on this very subject by Mychal S Massie entitled “Peaceful Religion is Not Spelled I-s-l-a-m”:
Read the entire column.
Depends on the definition of terrorism. What the US did in Vietnam doesn’t qualify? The abuse of Iraqi POWs doesn’t qualify? Destruction of hamlets to save the people? It happens in Israel as it happened in the Philippine colonial wars. It is ludicrous to blame Islam for terrorism. Oppression forces people to strike out or back in any way they can, not religion (Crusades excepted).
Work towards a Palestinian solution that is fair and you’ll make the biggest impact on reducing terror. If you take a hard line then be prepared to defend yourself. I’ve heard a Palestinian describe the daily humiliation he must endure to deliver Coke (Coke, mind you) to Israeli-controlled areas. If I had to live that way, I’m not sure how I’d react; but I’d bet the US extreme-right would be the first to “lock and load.”
>Beeblebrox
I don’t believe in God, ghosts, devils and angels, magic, miracles. That is not a “belief” system. I don’t believe in floating trees, money trees, reincarnation, parallel worlds or anything that cannot be proven. I believe in the tangible, logical, verifiable and mathematically calculable. Those are the tests I apply to distinguish between reality and fantasy. It doesn’t mean that I don’t entertain conjecture if it is plausible or logical.
The belief in a Christian God is based on the bible; a collection of texts whose ancient origins can be traced back to pagan beliefs from the cradle of civilization; a collection of texts that have been revised, translated, modified, etc., countless times to suit the purposes of its propagators. Read the bible without prejudice and it sanctions terrorism, the murder and torture of innocents, as well as being full doctrinal contradictions and historical errors. That is a belief system. To be a good Christian, you must suspend disbelief in the ridiculous — have “faith.”
To be an atheist, you just have to be from Missouri.
Picture if you will…
I’m God. I’m gonna wait for 2000+ years for you retarded humans to finally fucking learn to love one another? Fuck it. I get as many do-overs as I Goddamn please. I’ve got eternity to get you fuckin’ humans right.
Killing each other, while claiming to love me more than the other group of nitwits IS NOT what I intended. You can’t possibly kill each other fast enough to please me, you bunch of inbred cretins. I’d do it myself, but do you sewagebrains know what I can do in 2.5 seconds? Yeah, well look through a friggin’ telescope noughthead. Learn something. I’m too friggin’ busy right now to deal with you turds.
But go on, keep destroying what I – yeah, fucking Me – gave you humans. I’ll be by any time now – to start over.
‘The belief in a Christian God is based on the bible; a collection of texts whose ancient origins can be traced back to pagan beliefs from the cradle of civilization; a collection of texts that have been revised, translated, modified, etc., countless times to suit the purposes of its propagators. Read the bible without prejudice and it sanctions terrorism, the murder and torture of innocents, as well as being full doctrinal contradictions and historical errors. That is a belief system. To be a good Christian, you must suspend disbelief in the ridiculous — have “faith.”‘
This contains an impressive amount of nonsens.
Anyway, it is true that Christianity is based on faith , but faith has to based on facts and Christianity is based on facts. Christianitty is a 100% rational faith.
Other things:
1) Truely born-again believers have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit.
“Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realise that Christ Jesus is in you� unless, of course, you fail the test?” 2Cor. 13:5
2) Divine healings still do happen, I have seen them.
3) There are people who have seen the Lord Jesus in our times both on this earth and in heaven.
4) God’s word is prophetic, things that are happening right know, for instance the restoration of the nation of Israel, are written down in the Bible. The Bible is a nice newspaper in advance. If you would only take the effort to read one chapter. (Matthew chapter 24)
addition:
My personal faith started with a revelation of God through a dream after a short prayer.
Bless you.
I live in Malaysia and Malaysia DO NOT HAVE ANY TERRORIST OR TERRORIST GROUPS. I’m shocked to see the US pointing fingers at other contries.
Why does the US trying to boss everyone?? They are not the UN or any World Governing bodies. If a country attacks another country without the UN approval, this it is considered an illegal war.
BLIX BLASTS ‘ILLEGAL’ US WAR ON IRAQ
“I don’t buy the argument that the war was legalised by the Iraqi violation of earlier resolutions,”
Hans Blix said “Allies had motivations other than WMDs for going to war” – 6th June 2003.
Who’s the terrorist now???
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” /> Cheers.
So, the war began. USA and UK, without any resolution of OUN, without any reasons, just because they want to capture Iraq’s oil, began the war against Iraq. In this war will die a lot of people. But USA don’t worry about human blood, they worry about OIL.
USA is talking about 30 countries, who approve the war in Iraq. Mostly it’s very small countries – f.e. Albania, Eretria, Ethiopia, Macedonia, Jamaica, AFGHANISTAN (!!!), Tobago, Liberia, Mosambik, PANAMA (!!!). All these countries are very small, poor, and they borrow the money from USA. And some governments approve the war, although most of people in these countries DON’T WANT THE WAR. It’s Turkey, Spain, even UK.
From this time all people understand, that USA is biggest bandit in the world. And ALL PEOPLE MUST STOP USA!!
are american stupid??? you decide. A video from an autralian site.
http://abc.net.au/cnnnn/video/ep07_stupidyankees.ram
anthon asserted: To be an atheist, you just have to be from Missouri.
And evidently sanctimonious, condescending, and ill-informed as well
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
Examples of outright falsehoods in anthonymous post:
The Bible… can be traced back to pagan beliefs..
This is patently false and I defy anyone to produce one scholarly reference to demonstrate otherwise. While some parts of Scripture are very old and the authorship in dispute, the majority of the Bible has known Jewish authors and dates of authorship.
Furthermore, Jesus’ teachings are clearly antithetical to pagan beliefs. The apostle Paul specifically preached against such belief systems throughout his writings. To claim that the Bible has pagan roots is ludicrous and unsupported by scholarship.
a collection of texts that have been… modified… to suit the purposes of its propagators.
Really? And what would those nefarious purposes be? Did Jesus originally command the violent conversion of the infidels and then later, those evil Church leaders decided to change His teachings to that horrible message of love and personal sacrifice?
Look at the authors of the Bible; how do they come off? Did their reputations get cleaned up over the centuries? Moses’s bio includes a murder and an inability to articulate his message, David chronicled his own horrific sins, Peter denied his Messiah, the rest of the apostles are depicted as weak cowards thoughout the Gospels, Paul and Peter (the founder of the Church) argued and eventually could not work together. These people WROTE the Bible and, for some odd reason, they left all the messiness in.
Of course, what we have today are the authentic Scriptural documents. You can deny divine inspiration but there is no credible person who can say that the Bible we have today is not what was originally written.
Read Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell for proofs of the authenticity of the Bible.
Regretably, the rest of anthonymous’ post is, IMHO, an intolerant, hateful, uninformed, and entirely unsupportable screed. I sympathize with the need for people with anthonymous’s beliefs to try to convince themselves that their dogma is true. But the reality is that there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. C.S Lewis, Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, and many others have produced this evidence. To debate it is a worthwhile endeavor but to deny its existence is folly.
B
the first war was justified because of the twin towers, but the 2nd war was a farce, a total disgrace. No UN support, no world support. This war is treatening harmony and world peace!
America’s pipe dream
A pro-western regime in Kabul should give the US an Afghan route for Caspian oil
By George Monbiot, The Guardian, 23 October 2001
“Is there any man, is there any woman, let me say any child here,” Woodrow Wilson asked a year after the first world war ended, “that does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry?” In 1919, as US citizens watched a shredded Europe scraping up its own remains, the answer may well have been no. But the lessons of war never last for long.
The invasion of Afghanistan is certainly a campaign against terrorism, but it may also be a late colonial adventure. British ministers have warned MPs that opposing the war is the moral equivalent of appeasing Hitler, but in some respects our moral choices are closer to those of 1956 than those of 1938. Afghanistan is as indispensable to the regional control and transport of oil in central Asia as Egypt was in the Middle East.
Afghanistan has some oil and gas of its own, but not enough to qualify as a major strategic concern. Its northern neighbours, by contrast, contain reserves which could be critical to future global supply. In 1998, Dick Cheney, now US vice-president but then chief executive of a major oil services company, remarked: “I cannot think of a time when we have had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian.” But the oil and gas there is worthless until it is moved. The only route which makes both political and economic sense is through Afghanistan.
Transporting all the Caspian basin’s fossil fuel through Russia or Azerbaijan would greatly enhance Russia’s political and economic control over the central Asian republics, which is precisely what the west has spent 10 years trying to prevent. Piping it through Iran would enrich a regime which the US has been seeking to isolate. Sending it the long way round through China, quite aside from the strategic considerations, would be prohibitively expensive. But pipelines through Afghanistan would allow the US both to pursue its aim of “diversifying energy supply” and to penetrate the world’s most lucrative markets. Growth in European oil consumption is slow and competition is intense. In south Asia, by contrast, demand is booming and competitors are scarce. Pumping oil south and selling it in Pakistan and India, in other words, is far more profitable than pumping it west and selling it in Europe.
As the author Ahmed Rashid has documented, in 1995 the US oil company Unocal started negotiating to build oil and gas pipelines from Turkmenistan, through Afghanistan and into Pakistani ports on the Arabian sea. The company’s scheme required a single administration in Afghanistan, which would guarantee safe passage for its goods. Soon after the Taliban took Kabul in September 1996, the Telegraph reported that “oil industry insiders say the dream of securing a pipeline across Afghanistan is the main reason why Pakistan, a close political ally of America’s, has been so supportive of the Taliban, and why America has quietly acquiesced in its conquest of Afghanistan”. Unocal invited some of the leaders of the Taliban to Houston, where they were royally entertained. The company suggested paying these barbarians 15 cents for every thousand cubic feet of gas it pumped through the land they had conquered.
For the first year of Taliban rule, US policy towards the regime appears to have been determined principally by Unocal’s interests. In 1997 a US diplomat told Rashid “the Taliban will probably develop like the Saudis did. There will be Aramco [the former US oil consortium in Saudi Arabia] pipelines, an emir, no parliament and lots of Sharia law. We can live with that.” US policy began to change only when feminists and greens started campaigning against both Unocal’s plans and the government’s covert backing for Kabul.
Even so, as a transcript of a congress hearing now circulating among war resisters shows, Unocal failed to get the message. In February 1998, John Maresca, its head of international relations, told representatives that the growth in demand for energy in Asia and sanctions against Iran determined that Afghanistan remained “the only other possible route” for Caspian oil. The company, once the Afghan government was recognised by foreign diplomats and banks, still hoped to build a 1,000-mile pipeline, which would carry a million barrels a day. Only in December 1998, four months after the embassy bombings in east Africa, did Unocal drop its plans.
But Afghanistan’s strategic importance has not changed. In September, a few days before the attack on New York, the US energy information administration reported that “Afghanistan’s significance from an energy standpoint stems from its geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from central Asia to the Arabian sea. This potential includes the possible construction of oil and natural gas export pipelines through Afghanistan”. Given that the US government is dominated by former oil industry executives, we would be foolish to suppose that such plans no longer figure in its strategic thinking. As the researcher Keith Fisher has pointed out, the possible economic outcomes of the war in Afghanistan mirror the possible economic outcomes of the war in the Balkans, where the development of “Corridor 8”, an economic zone built around a pipeline carrying oil and gas from the Caspian to Europe, is a critical allied concern.
American foreign policy is governed by the doctrine of “full-spectrum dominance”, which means that the US should control military, economic and political development worldwide. China has responded by seeking to expand its interests in central Asia. The defence white paper Beijing published last year argued that “China’s fundamental interests lie in … the establishment and maintenance of a new regional security order”. In June, China and Russia pulled four central Asian republics into a “Shanghai cooperation organisation”. Its purpose, according to Jiang Zemin, is to “foster world multi-polarisation”, by which he means contesting US full-spectrum dominance.
If the US succeeds in overthrowing the Taliban and replacing them with a stable and grateful pro-western government and if the US then binds the economies of central Asia to that of its ally Pakistan, it will have crushed not only terrorism, but also the growing ambitions of both Russia and China. Afghanistan, as ever, is the key to the western domination of Asia.
We have argued on these pages about whether terrorism is likely to be deterred or encouraged by the invasion of Afghanistan, or whether the plight of the starving there will be relieved or exacerbated by attempts to destroy the Taliban. But neither of these considerations describes the full scope and purpose of this war. As John Flynn wrote in 1944: “The enemy aggressor is always pursuing a course of larceny, murder, rapine and barbarism. We are always moving forward with high mission, a destiny imposed by the Deity to regenerate our victims while incidentally capturing their markets, to civilise savage and senile and paranoid peoples while blundering accidentally into their oil wells.” I believe that the US government is genuine in its attempt to stamp out terrorism by military force in Afghanistan, however misguided that may be. But we would be na�ve to believe that this is all it is doing.
Facts? Myths, I say. I don’t need a preacher to tell me what a passage in a book means. But the Bible, without the twisted interpretation of a preacher, is all I have said above.
>There are people who have seen the Lord Jesus in our times both on this earth and in heaven.
Fact is Janette Jackson’s boob as seen in the TV. Fiction is what you have written above. Jesus was here 2000 odd years ago, a Ghandi of that time. He hasn’t been back and that’s a fact. Millions of people commute to work every day. That’s a fact. Jesus can’t, or if you prefer, won’t commute. There is no photograph, no video, no inexplicable miracle of recent times. Mary only reveals herself to handicapped children in the hills of sparsely populated areas. Millions of people eventually make the pilgrimage in the hope of some cure for themselves or others. The statistical result is nil after taking into account the placebo effect.
The church is in crisis because of documented cases of child abuse by sexually repressed priests. Undocumented cases are a multiple of that number. You’d think the fellow responsible for christian laws might consider making an appearance to renew the faith of his lieutenants… but no! He’s got better things to do, right? Or maybe he dudn’t care? Or maybe, and here is the preferred explanation after applying Occam’s razor to the problem, he can’t because he ain’t what you think he is.
It’s all IN your mind … a virus, if you like, implanted by indoctrination. Get on your knees and pray hard for a while and you will hallucinate, stimulate the flow of hormones or chemicals that will produce a “revelation” of sorts.
Oh, I can read a chapter of the Bible, but I can’t interpret it like you can. So how do you interpret the article in the following link? Fact is you can’t read it because you are thoroughly brainwashed.
Atheos: The Bible And Christianity – The Historical Origins
As for Beeblebrox; I have no hate. Missouri is the “show me” state. To be from Missouri, as used in that way, simply means to be skeptical. I’ve got nothing to show you because I am not claiming the existence of the unprovable; I am just saying that you cannot prove the existence of God. C.S. Lewis, Josh McDowell et al can debate it to death, but no one can produce a shred of tangible evidence. T-A-N-G-I-B-L-E evidence.
O.K. anthonymous:
At my conversion about 15 years ago, God did heal my tonsils ( I actually felt the pain leaving ), I had been to hospital and an operation needed to be planned. In short: I prayed for a revelation of God and as prove healing of my tonsils. Just after the short prayer God healed my tonsils, I fell asleep and had a revelation of God in a dream, I immediatly woke up and repented of my sins, and was being born again. These are facts.
You are correct that the Church at large is in crisis, but a slow work of restoration ( revelation of Truth ) by the Spirit of God is going on which mainly started at the reformation. Christianity in the form of religiosity has to die, at the end of the age you will see a glorious Church, just before the return of the Lord.
Bless you.
Addition:
It is always could to be skeptical whatever you believe, but in the end you can’t resist truth.
BTW: Matthew chapter 24 does not need much interpretation.
is drinking wine, eating pork, permitted in christianity??
Em, one question that have been lingering on my mind. If all the people on earth become good christians and became priest or nuns, then will no future generation as no one will get married, right? is that what god one.
<pmr>
Doctor looked at my kid’s tonsils and said, “We don’t take those out anymore.” A day later, coincidentally, the problem went away.
I was indoctrinated into Christianity. At a religious retreat, I was already skeptical of the whole enchilada, but thought I’d give it a bit of a go. I prayed for a sign. The next day we had the final mass for the retreat and the priest had run out of hosts by my turn. Pure coincidence; bad planning, in fact.
Prayer can concentrate the mind on one’s goals. I’ve a friend who constantly and unashamedly prayed to get laid on the coming weekend and “scored” more often than not — 80% in fact. I merely wished for it and didn’t do too badly either. Most likely, our prospective partners were doing the same.
Peace be to you for we are all brothers and sisters of this planet: atheists, Islamics, Christians, polygamists, homosexuals, and even political extremists of either side. I believe in freedom of speech and thought and the right to pursue happiness so long as it doesn’t impinge on others’ rights to the same, M$ excepted, of course.
Actually I experienced it happening in 5 to 10 seconds immediatly after I prayed, I was 30 at the time (1989).
Well the truth is out there, waiting to be revealed. True faith is a result of revelation.
And it is true, not every prayer will be answered, God looks at motives.
I wish you the best for your life and family.
Matthew24.
Get real, man. Do you really think God came down special to heal your tonsils when he lets so many other little kids die of terminal illnesses? That really would be “moving in mysterious ways”.
“the truth is out there” what a great quote for you. Right out of the X-files.
anthonymous, let me ask you a few questions:
Do you believe that Lincoln was a US president? If so, why? Did you ever meet him? What tangible evidence do you have that you can trust? Many say he was president but those are second and third hand stories. By your reasoning, you really have no tangible evidence that Lincoln even lived at all.
In reality, your position is a double edged sword because it can be used to argue that the very things you believe are true today will be considered myth in a few centuries:
If you were living 1000 years in the future could you provide t-a-n-g-i-b-l-e proof that the following statements you have made are true? If so, how would you prove it?
-Janet Jackson once showed a “boob” on TV.
-“…child abuse by sexually repressed priests.”
A final point. You claim that you believe in logic as a way of believing if something is true but then you say:
“C.S. Lewis, Josh McDowell et al can debate it to death, but no one can produce a shred of tangible evidence.”
Lewis’ book Mere Christianity is the premier logical defense of the Christian faith. McDowell’s work is historical evidentiary proof of the validity of Christianity. So it appears that logic and historical proofs are not allowable in this debate?
It appears that you are dismissing these proofs because you are afraid that they will actually undermine your personal religious belief system (or rather, the belief system that you religiously defend.) I challenge you or any other skeptic reading this thread, to actually read something other than opinions from like-minded individuals. Move outside your narrow little box. Christians have their faith challenged and demeaned by people like you everyday and so it is easier for Christians to know the arguments because they hear them all the time. In your case it does not look like you live in a world where people daily challenge your world view and, no offense, but it shows.
The apostle Paul taught of a Faith that was rational and could be defended. He instructed Christians to make that defense from an intellectual position. Lewis, et. al. do just that.
Cheers,
B
Lincoln’s photo. Well before 1,000 years from now, someone with a grant will dig up the remains and tell us what his last meal was or if he had a tooth cavity that was hurtin’ him.
If Janet Jackson had a moment of “revelation” and that’s all, then it’s just a footnote of history. But if people start claiming that she is earth’s mother and that in the year 2004, she exposed a breast and fed thousands of children who had gathered at a super-ball [sic] worship event then I’d be skeptical about it, even if everyone else believes it to be true then.
>child abuse by sexually repressed priests
Court records, press, testimonies, for a start. Now if these documents get passed on by transcription from generation to generation by those promoting the church’s interest and the earliest document found 1,000 years later was written only 600 years before, and if a number of such documents contradict each other… then that is different from having hundreds of original documents of the time that are consistent.
In the former case, it would have long ago be revised from “abuse” to something benign. And that’s basically what the problem with the Bible is. Its early passages are an assemblage of pagan superstitions; its latter passages are editorialized fabrications and reinterpretations. You obviously haven’t visited the link I posted above, or if you have, couldn’t stomach reading it.
Yes, there will be myths of common events in the far future. If it were said that the Pope ordered pizza for members of a private meeting, fine. But if it’s said that he could conjure thousands of pizzas out of nothing to feed the adoring crowd of people at St. Peter’s Square, I would require evidence.
People challenging my world view does not bother me. In fact, people challenging my skepticism of things “out of this world” doesn’t offend me either. I have low expectations. We once believed the earth was the center of the universe and man the pinnacle of creation. We’ve made progress since then, though we obviously still have a way to go.
Lincoln’s photo — the previous link was empty.
The following was NOT posted by the real Glick7. Someone used my handle for whatever reason. I’ve been on the road for a few days and only noticed it now.
I haven’t really read what was posted in my name… so I can’t comment on the agenda of the person using my handle… but…. there was obviously an agenda.
Whoever you are… get a life, and some integrity.
Comment:
From: Glick7
May 25, 04 | 3:33 am
We have demonstrated that normal air safety and air defense measures were not employed on September 11th. This is extraordinary because 9-11 was the only day that four airplanes were hijacked in the U.S., not to mention the only day that three planes crashed into key buildings in New York City and Washington, DC.
Comment:
From: Glick7
May 25, 04 | 3:36 am
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/discussion_in_firehouse.mpg
BOMB
Most readers who have come this far in this thread will now realize that anthonymous has stepped into the quicksand.
I asked him for proof that Lincoln was a US president and he posts a link to a photo!
a.) How does this photo prove that this man you CLAIM is Lincoln was PRESIDENT, by his clothing or maybe the mysterious “last meal” that you think someone will find in his stomach when they dig him up someday? Were the last meals of presidents somehow different than the last meals of other people? And let’s say that someone does dig up a grave of a person that they CLAIM is Lincoln. How would we know that the claim is true. The grave could be of ANYONE.
b.) How do we know this is really Lincoln AT ALL and not just a picture of anthonymous himself after a session in Photoshop? In fact, I’m highly skeptical that it is Lincoln. What I need is t-a-n-g-i-b-l-e proof that this is actually President Lincoln rather than say, a notorious bank robber or some guy that got his picture taken in Frontierland at Disney World in 1989.
As I suspected it would be, anthonymous’ evidence is about as non-compelling as it gets and as such, is probably false. More than ever I believe that Lincoln never existed and if he did, was never a president.
-B
P.S. For those who think that there are other evidences, say from biographies written about Lincoln, you are wrong. By anthonymous’ own rationale (the article by Bidstrup), biographical information needs to be harmonious. Lincoln’s are not, lending further credence to my belief that he never existed.
anthonymous wrote: “And that’s basically what the problem with the Bible is. Its early passages are an assemblage of pagan superstitions; its latter passages are editorialized fabrications and reinterpretations. You obviously haven’t visited the link I posted above, or if you have, couldn’t stomach reading it.
Why would I have any problem stomaching Bidstrup? He is so obviously wrong and dishonest that reading his work is more pitiable than anything else. And I have read the paper. Indeed, most of it is very familiar, having been thoroughly-debunked on many occasions.
anthonymous, I dearly hope that you are not basing your world view on the pseudo-intellectualism of the oft-quoted (in secular humanist circles) gay activist, Scott Bidstrup! When you read his paper did you notice that he doesn’t reference his claims? Do you notice that he talks in generalities when attributing his sources? This is a dead give-away that there is no scholarship behind his work. In fact, a lot of his stuff he just invents out of whole cloth which, for a person trying to prove the Bible is a fabrication, is a bit ironic.
For those readers of this thread who may have taken up the challenge to read the Bidstrup column, keep in mind that this man is as anti-Christian as it gets. Furthermore, look at the man’s politics. He is a prolific writer of anti-Bush and anti-America tirades. He believes that Christian Fundamentalism is a cult, that Jesus never lived, and that America is a fascist nation. This needs to be understood so that a fair reader can consider the source.
But, for the sake of argument, I’m going to pretend that Bidstrup is a scholar, just one who doesn’t know how to properly reference a paper intended to “prove” that the Bible is a collection of pagan beliefs. Indeed, others, like James P. Holding, have taken him seriously and thoroughly debunked him. If you have read the Bidstrup paper then it is required that you also inform yourself on how easily his theories and assertions can be disproven. Note, as you read Holding’s critique, how thoroughly resourced and referenced it is. A pity that Bidstrup was not able to do the same, considering that people like anthonymous base their world view, at least in part, on his writings.
-B
You saw a photo of Lincoln!
I did the minimum; you can investigate the photograph from the link, search out other photographs, accounts, etc. Exhume his grave if you can. You can do something about it. I believe Lincoln most probably existed; even if you do not. Certainly, the case for his existence doesn’t violate any law of nature or logic.
>More than ever I believe that Lincoln never existed and if he did, was never a president.
That’s fine with me. You do not believe that someone existed even though there is tangible evidence (the photo for a start) that he did exist, but you believe in the existence of someone — who is “everywhere,” by the way, according to common christian belief — but has left no tangible evidence of his existence — no mark on this earth.
I see no God, no evidence of his intervention in nature; I believe he doesn’t exist. Can you show me something he has done? Did he make a mountain grow? A river flow? Rearrange the solar system? Write you a note? Oh I know people write about him, talk about him, pray to him, but that is not evidence.
I can show you what he has NOT done; or if you prefer, provide a reasonable explanation of why things are what they are without requiring divine intervention. The burden of proof is yours to show me something physical, tangible, and otherwise inexplicable other than by divine intervention.
>Furthermore, look at the man’s politics. He is a prolific writer of anti-Bush and anti-America tirades. He believes that Christian Fundamentalism is a cult, that Jesus never lived, and that America is a fascist nation.
Argumentum ad hominen!
anthonymous:
Be certain of this, if your desire is not to fellowship with God then God will respect and honor your choice – eternally.
anti-bush? of course i hate Bush, tell me one human being that
doesn’t hate that filthy person. He is blood and oil driven vampire that should be put away
Last anthonymous post is not mine — note the language. By using the nickname of another, you risk your right to anonymous posting, granted by the kindness of MDN. It doesn’t bother me that you do that, but it should bother you. Particularly since you misunderstood the post of Beeblebrox, who was talking about Bidstrup and not me.
>then God will respect and honor your choice – eternally [meat of moose]
And you happen to know that as a fact, right? Perhaps you mean he will send me to hell, eh? An eternity of torture by fire? That is absurd. I wouldn’t inflict that on my worst enemy. Why would your perfect, omniscient deity of infinite compassion even contemplate such a thing? You must really be in fear of a monster who can condemn his “children” to such suffering for exercising free thinking and free speech.
All subsequent posts using this nick are by trolls.
Anthonymous:
Let’s be intellectually honest. To state there is no God one would have to know with absolute certainty that God does not exist. This would require one to be in every place physical and spiritual at all times continuously to prove this assumption. To do this a human being would have to be virtually divine himself. I doubt that you have obtained this level of consciousness.
Besides, like I said, God would never want to “inflict” such “torture” on anyone. This is the choice of those who reject Him, this is the freedom God gives you as a “free thinking” being.
Consider this, why would anyone who would choose not to submit to God on earth choose to submit to God eternally in His kingdom? If you don’t want to submit and fellowship with God here you will not submit and fellowship with God ever – your free choice.
Therefore, the choice of eternal residence is yours unless you are willing to submit and incorporate Him into your life and mind here on earth.
Athonymous:
Be certain to that God, in His mercy, grace, and wisdom, would not allow a sinner to perish without also providing the way to salvation. A sincere prayer of repentance and for forgiveness, and commitment to Jesus (Yehsua) will put you on the road to the city of God. Get a Bible, read it with an open mind, and seek the friendship in a congregation of true believers.
Is that the best you can do? To be skeptical is to be “intellectually honest.”
>This would require one to be in every place physical and spiritual at all times continuously…
Hello! Your God is everywhere, I wouldn’t need to chase him here and there to find him — you’ve got it bass-ackward. Turns out he is nowhere but in the minds of some.
>God would never want to “inflict” such “torture” on anyone. This is the choice of those who reject…
By definition, if your “creator” is infallible and omniscient (he can foresee the future)… then nobody, including the creator himself, has any free will. Any changes made under free will by the creator or his creation is a contradiction.
>…God, in His mercy, grace, and wisdom, would not allow a sinner to perish without also providing the way to salvation….
Then there is no hell and no need for “salvation” — it’s all bogus. Only a sadistic megalomaniac would create a place like “hell” and demand “reverence.” Mere humans have more mercy, grace and wisdom.
As far as eternity is concerned, after your last conscious sensation, one second will be as meaningless as a trillion-trillion years.
“Is that the best you can do? To be skeptical is to be “intellectually honest.”
“Turns out he (God) is nowhere…”
Your “discussion” is rather pointless and fragmentary. First you make the claim that you are skeptical about God�s existence then you make the grand statement that He doesn�t exist at all � without any evidence to support your argument.
It seems obvious you are neither omnipresent nor omniscient so I would have to surmise that your assertion that God does not exist is clearly unsubstantiated.
Also, how is it that you impugn God�s character if you do not believe in Him at all? This seems rather bizarre � to criticize a �nonexistent entity�. Perhaps you need to reconsider what you really do think.
You might want to read A.W. Tozer�s �Knowledge of the Holy�. Tozer has done an excellent job in describing the characteristics or qualities of God.
I do not need to prove God exists. Revelation is by His discretion. However, I am certain that He will reveal Himself to those that diligently seek Him.
>Your “discussion” is rather pointless and fragmentary.
I have a point; several, in fact. I’m criticizing your delusion of a God.
If your God knows everything then he can have no free will, and neither can you.
If your God is omnipotent then he would banish injustice in an instant. At the least, he would’ve stopped his lieutenants from abusing little innocent children in the sacristy.
If your God is merciful he wouldn’t have “created” a place of eternal torture, let alone a world where animals kill for a meal, or suffer long and painful diseases.
If your God is wise he wouldn’t have “created” an imperfect world.
If your God is just he wouldn’t say that innocent children are born with “original sin.” Mere humans can come up with the principle that you are innocent until proven guilty. Passing a parent’s guilt on to his offspring is base. Imagine the neighbors whispering: His brother went to jail; her dad plays around; his grandpa is in an asylum; they are… [insert any religious denomination]. Narrow minded, huh?
If your God IS, then he wouldn’t move in “mysterious” ways playing a childish game of salvation or condemnation. Want to get a message through to the people? Just make an appearance in any public place. He can’t, can he? Why’s he hiding? It’s simple: he doesn’t exist. He’s a creation of the human mind. This is not a “grand statement,” it’s a small statement. The grand statement would be to say he exists without being able to produce any evidence. Even grander is to say he will do this or that.
You’ve been brainwashed; indoctrinated. You need a supreme being to justify your life; you cannot imagine your life without that crutch. It’s easy. Be skeptical. Ask questions. If you can’t find reasonable answers then perhaps it’s time to contemplate man’s potential in nature. We are capable of beautiful things: living in freedom, justice, aiding others, protecting nature from ourselves, learning about our world through science, curing disease, alleviating suffering, creating and nurturing children, escaping from nature’s cataclysms, including cheating death in some far off future…. All these things, we can do without a God. It’s a beautiful world without demons and falsehoods once you wake up and cast off your delusions of the unreal.
I look forward to reading A.W. Tozer’s first hand interview with God if he ever gets to meet him, not some tortuous semantic exercise.
If there is no God as you claim then this begs the question, why are you so vehemently opposed to my beliefs? I think you “doth protest too much”.
�If your God knows everything then he can have no free will, and neither can you.�
You are correct that God cannot be free to be other than who He is, God would not be God if he could be someone other than Himself. The fact that you choose not to follow God is perfect evidence of free will, right?
�If your God is omnipotent then he would banish injustice in an instant. At the least, he would’ve stopped his lieutenants from abusing little innocent children in the sacristy.�
I agree that God will banish injustice, but eventually and in His time not yours. I’m am sure that an intelligent person as yourself would be somewhat “skeptical” of those who claim to be God’s “lieutenants” yet violate the basic tenets of the true faith. You do agree that hypocrisy is a bad thing and humans do bad things, right? If you profess that evil exists why can�t you profess that perfect good also exists? Also, who says that abusing children is bad? You? God?
�If your God is merciful he wouldn’t have “created” a place of eternal torture, let alone a world where animals kill for a meal, or suffer long and painful diseases.�
�If your God is wise he wouldn’t have “created” an imperfect world.�
You are correct that God created a perfect world. Too bad humans mucked it up. Read Genesis. God would not condemn sinners to hell without also providing a means of redemption. Too bad many people would rather choose to live without His grace and His presence. God respects you so much that He will honor your decision not to exist with Him – forever. After death is judgment � God said this. If you have a problem with this talk with Him.
�If your God is just he wouldn’t say that innocent children are born with “original sin.” Mere humans can come up with the principle that you are innocent until proven guilty. Passing a parent’s guilt on to his offspring is base. Imagine the neighbors whispering: His brother went to jail; her dad plays around; his grandpa is in an asylum; they are… [insert any religious denomination]. Narrow minded, huh?�
Name one person whose hasn�t sinned and I will agree that there is no �original sin�. But everyone one this planet (with the exception of One) violated at least one God�s commandments (lied, stolen, lusted, envied, coveted, hated, etc) at least once. I�m sure that even you can �fess up to at least one.
�If your God IS, then he wouldn’t move in “mysterious” ways playing a childish game of salvation or condemnation. Want to get a message through to the people? Just make an appearance in any public place. He can’t, can he? Why’s he hiding? It’s simple: he doesn’t exist. He’s a creation of the human mind. This is not a “grand statement,” it’s a small statement. The grand statement would be to say he exists without being able to produce any evidence. Even grander is to say he will do this or that.�
God does whatever He wants that does not violate His essence. I can accept that God does what He does as He wants according to His perfect Being. God loves you, but He does not exist to serve you.
�You’ve been brainwashed; indoctrinated.�
Says you, skeptic.
�I look forward to reading A.W. Tozer’s first hand interview with God if he ever gets to meet him, not some tortuous semantic exercise.�
I had always considered skeptics open minded and unafraid of real study � even difficult subjects.
As for the rest. No comment necessary.
> I can accept that God does what He does as He wants according to His perfect Being …. Also, who says that abusing children is bad?
Humanity has made laws against that — don’t get caught.
> But everyone one this planet (with the exception of One) violated at least one God�s commandments
“Thou shalt not kill” commandment — God sent the Angel of Death to kill the first born of every Egyptian, according to the Bible. Bet that tactic would produce bin Ladin quickly; thankfully we are more civilized.
Exodus 20:1-17
QUOTE
4. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
UNQUOTE
Exodus 34:10-26
QUOTE
10. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.
UNQUOTE
Ingersoll [1894] on the Ten Commandments:
QUOTE
If Jehovah had been civilized he would have left out the commandment about keeping the Sabbath, and in its place would have said: “Thou shalt not enslave thy fellow-men.” He would have omitted the one about swearing, and said: “The man shall have but one wife, and the woman but one husband.” He would have left out the one about graven images, and in its stead would have said: “Thou shalt not wage wars of extermination, and thou shalt not unsheathe the sword except in self-defence.”
If Jehovah had been civilized, how much grander the Ten Commandments would have been.
UNQUOTE
Is murder, polygamy, slavery, genocide and injustice the work of a “Perfect Being”?
Oh, my, Troll thinks that he can use God’s book to prove that God does not exist. This is a switch, Troll. First you deny His existence then you argue about Him using His holy scripture. I seriously suggest that you talk the author of the bible.
In the mean time let me direct you to several excellent on-line sites for apologetics:
http://www.gospelcom.net/rzim/publications/essay_artindex.php
http://www.str.org/
http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/resource.html
http://www.gospelcom.net/ivpress/groothuis/DGPubs.htm
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/
http://www.christian-apologetics.net/
http://www.apologeticsresctr.org/
http://www.comereason.org/contents.asp
http://www.carm.org/
http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp
Let me know when you have exhausted these resources. OK? I’m a busy guy and so should you.
Thank you. It has been an illuminating experience arguing with you. It takes a lot to switch someone’s thinking — whether it be on the subject of one’s preferred computer platform or some other deep seated belief. It is almost a pointless exercise. I’m happy to abandon the debate here, unless someone else wants to take up the contradictions exposed in my last post. If anyone else has followed thus far, I should think they’ve had enough.
Troll:
Now I am skeptical of your original intentions. I sincerely doubt that you could have read and contemplated the information offered on one, much less all, of the sites I provided you in less than 2 hours. If you wish to exercise your free will not to honestly and sincerely examine the issue of your relationship with God this is your choice.
But please, do not bore me or anyone else with your self-righteous attitude of moral superiority or congratulate yourself with some misguided sense of moral certitude. You have done nothing to prove either. The only thing you have made clear is that you are willing to remain ignorant and uneducatable.
I never attacked you. I have no doubt you are a well-respected person of impeccable integrity. Don’t attack me then, respond to the question.
I did not murder anyone or kill any insect above the level of caterpillar, and though you say that I am not without sin, your God “sent the Angel of Death to kill the first born of every Egyptian.” And that was just the most obvious example of his kills. Just how do you reconcile that with your statement that:
> But everyone one this planet (with the exception of One) violated at least one God�s commandments
Links to ten 500-plus-word essays torturing philosophy is no answer to a simple question; it’s a dodge. You should be able to counter in about three sentences since you are not ignorant and, by inference, educated.
Or if you prefer, tick any of the following:
[_] The Bible didn’t mean what it said — it never happened.
[_] God can justify killing his subjects.
[_] Both the Bible and the concept of a Supreme Being are false.
[_] I have no answer.
[_] Neither of the above. Please explain in the space below.
________________________________________
________________________________________
________________________________________
And in case anyone is wondering about those ten links posted by meat of moose, I shall include a sample below from APOLOGETICS [Part 1] An Apologetic for Apologetics and I encourage you to read it in its entirety, lest I be accused of making quotes out of context. [from Apologia (Greek) – answer; defense].
QUOTES
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.
4. What types of evidences should we use? A. Objectively Verifiable Evidence or Reasons…. [mostly Biblical passages]
6. What is the purpose of apologetics? b. We are to obey what God has commanded us to do irrespective of the results…. c….whether we like it or not…. 4. This is done, for among other reasons, to show people that the views they have been trusting or believing in are not true and cannot help or save them.
7. How do you “do” apologetics? — A. Know the Bible and the Gospel well! … D. Spiritual Warfare 1. Always remember that you are involved in spiritual warfare! … 3. Non-Christians are spiritually dead…. 7. Never, never, never forget this! a. Do not present or deal with difficulties or objections to Christianity that a person has not mentioned.
So now you know why them Jehovah Witnesses keep knocking at your door, or why those who wear Christianity on their sleeves have difficulty tolerating Islam.
Troll:
Let’s roll the tape, shall we. You said I was �delusional�, but I suppose that you meant this in a kind and neighborly way not in a pejorative or mean-spirited way.
When I said that you were willing to remain ignorant I was simply pointing out that since you obviously refused to read any of the materials from the offered links it was clear that you were choosing to remain uninformed of answers to the topics you first raised. I point you in the direction of experts in the area of apologetics and your only response is a childish multiple-choice �exam� and a weak excuse that the material is too difficult for you to comprehend.
I did respond to you questions. I think that the reason you cannot respond to the information in the links offered is because you are incapable of understanding them. If discussions about God and the bible are too complex and too complicated for you, please, don�t embarrass yourself any further by exposing your lack of scholarly aptitude, skeptic.
No, no… thank you for the links. I am reading them and finding them illuminating.
As for your answer, I will accept the links you have provided me with as your best answer. Does that satisfy you? You have done your duty so be at peace.
I don’t normally engage in this kind of debate, except when provoked by too much elitism, bigotry or hypocrisy. I truly dislike the bully, be it a crowd of Christians against Islam or viceversa, or both against atheists; be it a bunch of soldiers abusing Iraqi POWS in violation of the Geneva Convention followed by a transparent excuse that it was done as an exercise of softening them up for interrogation, or the confusion of morality and legality to deny homosexuals the right of forming long-relationship contracts [marriage], or even the justice department weaseling out of its duty to protect consumers from monopolies.
The founding fathers of the US constitution took great pains to separate the church from state, and perhaps this accounts for some of the difference in development between Christian Democracies and Islamic States. Unfortunately they failed to separate business from state to the same extent. I do not want to see us backsliding due to the intellectual weaknesses of our leaders or education system.
I wish you peace and enlightenment and I’m sure you wish me the same.
wow, just read some of these posts, and Troll, I am impressed with your thoughts. thanks for the good read…
meat of moose:
“Delusion” was not meant as an attack; “don’t get caught” was perhaps too heavy, and for that you have my apology.
As for the links, Aplogetics seeks an explanation for all and many problems / contradictions of the Christian faith. They would satisfy most Christians but for me they fail the test of Occam’s Razor as applied in the popular rather than literal sense. The more convoluted an explanation, the more skeptical I am of it; though not everything can be reduced to something as elegant as E=mc^2.
G-Spank, thanks. I used to be a “Who cares?” person until I decided to resolve my position.
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