“IT workers are evenly split between Barack Obama and John McCain as their choice for the next president of the United States, according to a new survey by the Computing Technology Industry Association and Rasmussen Reports,” Roy Mark reports for eWeek.
“The survey of IT workers, taken in early March, shows Obama and McCain in a dead heat, with each receiving 39 percent of the vote, and Hillary Clinton trailing at 13 percent,” Mark reports.
“The survey also shows that while 35 percent of IT workers identify themselves as Republicans and another 26 percent call themselves Democrats, 40 percent chose no party affiliation. An overwhelming majority—75 percent—put themselves in the conservative-moderate political spectrum,” Mark reports.
“According to CompTIA, there are more than 12 million IT workers in the United States—more than miners, farmers and construction workers combined. The CompTIA numbers reveal that the IT work force is mostly white (74 percent), male (77 percent) and more than 80 percent make between $60,000 and $100,000 or more,” Mark reports.
More in the full article here.
And let the Vitriol Begin!!!!!!!
MDN = traffic-generating geniuses.
True dat yo. Let me click on some ads to pay for this fun.
This is just why I visit this site…to get politics mixed in with my Apple news…
ugh
Easily will be 5 pages of posts.
It’s going to be Obama. McCain doesn’t have a chance in hell. Even my father, a small town police officer, law-and-order conservative party-pooper type is going to vote Obama. My dad would never vote for a Democrat, or a black man, but he enjoys how Obama can string more than 10 words together without staring at a teleprompter.
He has a point.
I, for one, welcome our new overlords.
Ho hum! Yawn!
MW: Bring, as in bring it on. I don’t have to; it will bring itself on.
Here’s the truth: America will not elect a black man or a woman as president. Maybe in a decade or so, but not now. Yes, we here are all enlightened people and would never vote based on race or gender, but large swaths of the U.S. are not enlightened and will vote based on race and gender.
Here’s the deal, get used to it:
President John McCain
Much worse things have happened. I actually kind of like the guy.
“The CompTIA numbers reveal that the IT work force is mostly white (74 percent), male (77 percent) and more than 80 percent make between $60,000 and $100,000 or more,”
And they’re mostly Republicans… Who’d-a thunk it?!
@ Reality
I’m cooking your crow now. Should be yummy by November.
Tell yer dad Hitler was a great speaker. Talked on and on. They didn’t have teleprompters in those days.
Tell yer dad, Obama’s friend, confidant, and religious mentor, who talks up hating white folks, he’s a good speaker also.
Tell yer dad, it’s good to know that such relevant criteria is being used to sway his vote to liberals.
@ ChrissyOne:
“he enjoys how Obama can string more than 10 words together without staring at a teleprompter.”
Too bad that’s all Obama can do. All talk, no substance behind it. He would be an absolute disaster.
The survey also showed that 75% of IT workers are shitting their pants over the possibility of their company switching to the Macintosh platform.
So, suck on that MAC dorks!
RON PAUL 2008!
stupid AS*ES!
@ Obama haters
Hey, it’s not like I’m a big fan, I’m just telling you the way it is. McCain can only run as Another Republican™, and the American people aren’t so impressed with their leadership at the moment. I actually quite like McCain as a person. He certainly displays more honor and integrity that the average Nixon-knock-off crook that GW employs.
Suck on that, GOP dorks.
This is Macdailynews, why do we care about who IT people are going to vote for. It is bad enough already that there is an Obama ad flashing away on almost every page. I think MDN should stick with technology news and not politics, we get enough of that on EVERY news channel.
“The survey also shows that while 35 percent of IT workers identify themselves as Republicans and another 26 percent call themselves Democrats, 40 percent chose no party affiliation. An overwhelming majority—75 percent—put themselves in the conservative-moderate political spectrum,” Mark reports.
Observation: This is a pretty accurate reflection of US demographics as a whole. Some studies/surveys indicate greater percentages with the two main parties with those increases coming equally at the expense of the Independent/no affiliation tally, but still very similar. And the 75% figure for Conservative-Moderate is in the right ball park too.
Of course, if one is to restrict the region or specifics of the study to certain regions of the country or cities versus suburbs versus rural the tally’s change, but…
I have no idea where the election will end up. [I’m long past tired of hearing about it to be honest]. None of the candidates really do much for me. I’ll be glad when it’s over though.
— Hano
@ @ChrissyOne
Yeah, I’ll tell my dad all about what an anonymous computer geek said about Hitler on the internet. That’ll go over big.
I don’t mind voting for a black man, just not this one.
I don’t mind voting for a woman, just not this one.
I’m not too happy with McCain, but he’s a Vietnam vet —like me.
@Jay-Z,
“He would be an absolute disaster.”
Uh, you mean like the past 8 years. I’d rather see Hitler in there than have 1 more day of Dumbya. It’ll take our country 50-100 years to recover from his administration. I don’t envy the next president that has to deal with the mess.
Cubert’s First And Only Political Post:
In the wake of Obama speaking here in Philly on Tuesday, it seems to me that the bigger question is whether the 6000 people in his congregation believed the stuff the pastor was saying. There are two possibilities: They either believed it, or they didn’t care enough to leave the church in protest. Either way it bodes poorly for race relations in the U.S. and is very telling. Obama said nothing in his speech except that we should talk about race – no mention of any plans. Blacks in the U.S. need to start trusting the rest of us more, stop believing these ridiculous ideas that the pastor was preaching, stop spewing vitriol about white people, and take more responsibility for the situation they are in.
Case in point: Who, in general, is more likely to have problems? A white guy walking through an all black neighborhood or a black guy walking through an all white neighborhood?
Exactly.
By the way, I am a Democrat and will vote for Obama if he is the nominee.
@ Reclaimer
“I’m not too happy with McCain, but he’s a Vietnam vet —like me.”
In that case, I’m voting for Forrest Gump.
No one hates Obama. I know I don’t. He isn’t deserving of hate, no more than any void of substance promise generator.
Now Hillary, she’s about as close as you can get to actually pulling something that vaguely resembles hate out of me. It’s either hate or a gastrointestinal visceral reaction to all things Clinton.
And John McCain, well, just a sheep in wolf’s clothing. Be like having Arnold Switch’n’egger in the White House.
Yeah. No matter what, we are so screwed. Maybe it will cost less under McCain. Maybe. Unfortunately republicans have been spending money like drunken liberals since Bush got into office, so ya never really know.
Bottom line, they’re all liars.
@ Cubert
“Case in point: Who, in general, is more likely to have problems? A white guy walking through an all black neighborhood or a black guy walking through an all white neighborhood?”
Well, of course, it depends on what kind of neighborhood we’re talking about. One thing I do know for sure is that no one in either of those neighborhoods will bother a Mexican guy as long as he’s holding a weed-eater.
It’ll be smooth sailing with McCain whose first official act will be to start a war with Iran. No problems there.
And of course our “liberal” media will make sure McCain has to disavow the statements of fundagelical wacko John Hagee (whose church numbers many thousands of adherents, unlike Wright’s few hundred) who calls the Catholic church the “great whore” and who wants to bring about the destruction of Israel in the “end times”, as well as his “spritual guide” Rod Parsley who rakes in millions and millions of tax-free dollars while calling for the extermination of Islam.
“Bottom line, they’re all liars.”
Truer words will not be typed in this thread.
Because even though IT managers have to use Windoze….
They know the difference between something new and a rehash of an old, unreliable, and un-trustworthy system.
Just my $0.02
I just read a book called “The Logic of Life: The rational economics of an Irrational world” by Tim Harford.
I know I know, Steve Jobs says we don’t like to read and we don’t like books but if any of you happen to find yourself stranded in a Borders, check it out.
It’s got a really thought provoking justification why the best voters are those that are basically uninformed, and why your vote doesn’t really count anyway.
This is a tough election year for us true independents. There are things I like and dislike about both McCain and Obama. If we could mix then together we might be in good shape. Barack McCain for President!
Hey up here in Canada we are hoping Democrats win and I myself hope it is Obama as he speaks from the heart and has his sh*t together… if it is Hillary, so be it.. but McCain is just a clone of Bush or as we call it “BUSH LITE”
We already have a conservative prime minister (Stephen Harper) up here whose policies are nearly exactly the same as Bush..and he also is involved is as many scandals too.
We are even in a war that we have no business being in Afghanistan and losing lives without a cause other than to appease Bush so he can get the oil out of Iraq..
There is no way you guys will elect another Republican and if you do feel that you are obviously indulging in our greatest cash crop up here and are real stoned,…LOL
I had no idea that many IT people were unemployed (and therefore Obama supporters for those who have not yet had their coffee). While they will have more soup available to them the line will be longer with Obama. Taxes people. You can’t afford Obama if you actually work for a living and if you don’t you should vote for Clinton so you will have something to laugh at after they repossess your computer.
I want GORE !
Really? Is there ONE good thing you can say about McCain? Even his name speaks of evil, and he truely and completely represents the status-quo. He’s a warmonger who’s sole reason for running is to continue the slaughter of people in the Middle East.
MDN entire, as in, the entire Middle East hates us for only one reason – because we’re there. How about we try leaving them alone and stop invading other countries preaching about Christianity and Democracy like its the only answer.
Hey Heepfan and all you Conservatives…
Look at the shape that your economy is in now..we are even doing better than you are and our LOONIE is kicking your dollar’s butt so you honestly feel another Conservative there will make things better LOLOLOL
The conservative mentality and policies only angered other countries and look at the sources of 911 …not to mention that Rumsfield and Bush used to be friends with Sadaam ..hey they even supplied the gas that Saddam used to kill his people..
The warmongering policies of Bush and McCain are gonna be a tragic and shameful part of American history..
@C1,
“Well, of course, it depends on what kind of neighborhood we’re talking about.”
Exactly which is why I said “in general”. Nothing is absolute. I was merely talking percentages.
Anther question: If Obama is elected, does that mean all the black-only organizations in this country (NAACP, etc.) will go away. It would mean that a black person has achieved the highest political office in the country. One can hardly argue that there are still barriers to any black person achieving anything at all!
And oh yea..I AM PROUD TO BE A CANADIAN….
@grh,
“I want GORE!”
Texas Chainsaw Massacre? Roadhouse?
“He’s a warmonger who’s sole reason for running is to continue the slaughter of people in the Middle East.”
You mean bombing for peace doesn’t work? Huh. Interesting.
@Ed,
Ever, just for a moment, wonder what sort of shape Canada would be in if the U.S. just ceased to exist? Heck Cuba’s armed forces could take ya. I mean, is there even anything such as a Canadian Army? Navy? Air Force?
Oh and by the way…
TORONTO — The loonie had its biggest single-day plunge in nearly 46 years yesterday, falling 2.19 cents against the American dollar as a bleak outlook for the world’s economies also pushed down the price of key commodities such as gold and oil.
Canada’s dollar ended the day at 98.49 cents US — the lowest close in a month. The currency also dropped sharply on Tuesday and continued lower throughout yesterday’s session, but the momentum picked up late in the afternoon.
“Bombing for peace”
Works all to often actually.
Other countries deseve to be angered – just F off.
I don’t like either one of these, but will NOT vote for Obama, race bating – america hater.
I’m Proud to be an American and the rest of you can just F off, this is NOT your country.. It’s MINE. America has pulled your sorry asses out of trouble so many times but all you can do is BITCH.. Too bad, we ARE better than you!
The only reason anyone would think that Obama would cost more is because most Americans are fiscally retarded and place a higher priority of fucking over other nations before healing their own.
How about you pay off your, what, seven trillion dollar debt off. A third of the gross federal revenue serves to pay the interest of that alone. How about you pull all your tropps home and cut the DOD spending by a few hundred billion dollars a year. Invest in alternative energy initiatives and free yourselves of being the Middle Easy’s bitch. Cut down on the size of the government as a whole, and work on a true social program that grants fundamental rights to health care, fair education and protection by the state to all citizens, black, white, yellow or red, legal or illegal.
Divisive thinking is only bringing your whole country down. Think about it like this – those millions of struggling people, who usually die if they get sick because your health care system feeds the pockets of the HMOs not the sick – if they were healthier, had the same access to education as the stupidly wealthy, then maybe they’d work more, accomplish more, and provide more to the federal coffers. With more money available, perhaps the federal government could pay the public school teachers more, to help train them better and to have lower density classrooms. Universal healthcare becomes a self feeding system because healtier people work harder.
But, odds are, you are all going to want to stay in Iraq, because war is cool. You’re HMO’s will brainwash everyone into thinking that “Universal Healthcare” is for commies and will bankrupt the economy, and in the end you’ll be no better off, and continue your slide into third or fourth place in the world. Sad, but inevitable.
“Bombing for peace” “Works all to often actually.”
I suppose once everyone is dead it is real peaceful.
@nonarKitten
“… The only reason anyone would think that Obama would cost more is because most Americans are fiscally retarded and place a higher priority of fucking over other nations before healing their own.
…”
Dear Lord thank you for clearing that all up.
We were all so confused.
Chrissy, Forest Gump isn’t running for office.
Uncle Victor said to bugger off!
BlueStateRed: America hasn’t pulled anyone out of anything, including its collective head out of its collective ass.
@nonarKitten
WWI, WWII — I could go on… Maybe you have forgotten
What would Canada do without the US? Well, historically speaking, for that to work, Canada would have to occupy the US (that is, the War of Independance failed), and Canada would be the super power.
Now, in the theoretical, if the US went of a nuked itself or something, I suppose Canada would be just fine. We aren’t warmongers, the US has never come to our aid to defend us, nor would they ever need to, because unlike you, the whole world doesn’t hate us. Instead of shipping our oil to you, we’d send it off to China where there’s a strong demand for it. So suck it up – we don’t need you or your silly toys.
For the record, Canada’s wiped your asses in every conflict we have had, and even today, we’d still burn down your White House if you tried that shit again. Don’t gang up on Canada – we have the world behind us. You’re just one puny nation that has a huge ego problem and needs to bully other nations to feel superior.
I’m writing in Ron Paul.
Join me will you?
It seems that Ron Paul didn’t wash his hands before he ate.
Lends more meaning to the term “Finger Lickin’ Good!”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Foot_in_the_Grave
Canada would have many fewer war dead if stoned U.S. Air Force pilots would stop dropping bombs and blasting Canadian troops with rocket fire.
WWI – US accounted for less than 2% of the world-wide total Entente forces and didn’t enter the war until three years into it. I’d hardly call the US contribution decisive at all.
WWII – US addition of forces late into the war helped with a war that was otherwise a War of Attrition. US battles in the Pacific were considerable, but inclusion into the European, Middle Eastern and African fronts were not as profound. At the time, The US was comparable to the UK alone, but did not account for the majority of the forces.
Everything since? Oh, did you win in Veitnam after all? Has Korea changed much since then? Do you idiots realize that all the problems in Europe and the Middle East are because of your posturing and popous attitude at the end of WWII. Suddenly your government felt it justified to run around the world and dictate to everyone how they should run their lives. Let’s carve up the Middle East according to OUR needs. Let’s GIVE the holy land to the Jews. Let’s erect a huge wall and have a half-century long pissing contest with the Russians.
It’s nice to know the Japanse totally pwn your ass.
@nonarKitten:
The “world” doesn’t hate Canada because you’re not WORTH hating. They don’t even respect you enough to hate you. Put that in your pipe and smoke it…
I’m ALWAYS runnin’.
@Kate: That would be a nice opinion if it had any merit what-so-ever. And don’t you think it’s a little sick that the measure of worth is by being hateable? All all super (or near) powers universally hated? No.
most opinions of Canada around the world are either neutral or positive. It is why, afterall, many Americans wear Canadian flags while touring in Europe.
IT workers – Hahahahahahaha.
Most difficult thing they do is to plug something in.
Generally a Windows thingy.
Compare to this…
“In increasing numbers, people around the globe resent American power and wealth and reject specific actions like the occupation of Iraq and the campaign against democratically elected Palestinian leaders, in-depth international polling shows.
Analysts say America’s image problem is pervasive, deep and perhaps permanent, an inevitable outcome of being the world’s only superpower.
But there is worse news. In the past, while Europeans, Asians and Arabs might have disliked American policies or specific U.S. leaders, they liked and admired Americans themselves.
Polls now show an ominous turn. Majorities around the world think Americans are greedy, violent and rude, and fewer than half in countries like Poland, Spain, Canada, China and Russia think Americans are honest.”
So true.
Oh, look who’s at 14th Place, and oh, looky who’s all the way down at the bottom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance
I guess that shut you up. All of you Americans can be as blind to self inflicted failures as you want, it doesn’t change a bloody thing. The sad truth is that you’ll probably elect the warmonger over the “black man”, and continue your slide.
Ah well, back to work.
Anybody who votes for McCain or even associates themselves with the Republican Party simply has absolutely NO IDEA what the fu*k is going on in this world, and how the Republicans have destroyed democracy, the environment, the planet, the dollar, their own children, and countless American lives… all for the own temporary pleasure of fulfilling their own greed. A vote for Republicans is a vote for corporations to continue destroying America & this planet. Anybody who votes Republican is basically inhuman and unhuman.
@reclaimer….you are voting for McCain just because he is a vet? Isn”t that like voting for Hillary because she has a vagina or Obama because he has a darker tan than most?
Whatever happened to issues?
If I was american, I would vote for Obama. I have seen Bush and Obama dance. One is sooooooo much better.
Buster, I’l vote for whom ever I want to for what ever reason I chose.
FYI “so” has only one “o.”
Uncle Victor says,”Piss off, ‘ya yob!”
@ Jimbo von Winskinheimer:
Where in my post did I indicate I was a George Bush supporter or even a Republican? I said Obama would be a disaster (and he absolutely would be). It was a criticism of Obama, not a broad-sweeping criticism of Democrats or a broad-sweeping endorsement of Republicans or John McCain. It was a comment about Obama and Obama only.
It could turn out that McCain would be even worse than Obama, and if that’s the case, I’d vote for Obama and cross my fingers that he doesn’t completely screw up the country over the course of 4 years.
“MDN entire, as in, the entire Middle East hates us for only one reason – because we’re there. How about we try leaving them alone and stop invading other countries preaching about Christianity and Democracy like its the only answer.”
Ummm, no. Even the terrorists disagree with you. Islam hates the west because we’re not Muslims. How many times do they need to say it before morons like you will take them at their word? There are plenty of fundamentalist Muslims in Europe who don’t care much about the Middle East, but they cause just as trouble as their Middle East counterparts. Ask the French, or the Russians.
Pulling out of Iraq right now would be a colossal mistake. The bottom line is, we are in the midst of a religious war, like it or not. This isn’t going to go away if we leave the Middle East. Europe and Canada are being slowly, and legally, overtaken by Muslim citizens. In the next hundred years, Muslims will probably be running most of the governments in Europe and probably your precious Canada as well – legally. Our only hope for the future of our children and grandchildren is to help modernize Islam in the same way that Christianity and Judaism have become modernized. That is, not willing to fly planes into buildings or strap bombs to their chests in the name of God. Even more importantly, change their attitudes about women, homosexuality, killing people over cartoons, etc.
Better yet, all religion could disappear, but that’s unlikely.
The bigger picture for the Iraq war is to help Iraq become a democracy where people are free to make the most of their lives, do business with whomever they please, make money, and prosper. If that can successfully happen in Iraq, then it will hopefully spread to other Middle Eastern counties as well. The best barrier to violence between two groups of people is business. I believe it was Thomas Friedman who said, “no two countries who have a McDonalds have ever gone to war against each other.” That’s actually not true anymore but the principle is sound.
We could leave Iraq if the insurgents would stop trying to impede progress. So yes, in this case, we are bombing our way to peace.
The liberals refuse to look at the bigger picture. It’s not about Saddam, or Iraq, or oil, or terrorism. It’s about doing something to make sure that the world that our grandchildren and great-grandchildren inherit will be free, and tolerant, and, hopefully, much more peaceful than our time. There’s no guarantee that it will work, but it’s our best shot. If we don’t do this, in as little as a hundred years, much of the world could look like Afghanistan circa 2000.
“The CompTIA numbers reveal that the IT work force is mostly white (74 percent), male (77 percent) and more than 80 percent make between $60,000 and $100,000 or more,”
Ahhhh 60 – 100K . That’s what us Democrats call “Rich People”. We just have to elect a democrat so we can tax these “rich” people more. I need free food stamps, free housing, free health care and a lot of other things. I’m not really interested in work – I want to sit on my butt and act important on MDN all day!!!
Elect Obama so he tax those rich IT people and we all here at MDN can get some free handouts…
……Ever, just for a moment, wonder what sort of shape Canada would be in if the U.S. just ceased to exist?
Yup. We would not have to worry about Cuba because Cuba is our friend. Pierre Trudeau made nice with Fidel and he actually came to Pierre’s funeral.
So if the US didn’t exist, we wouldn’t have ignorant blowhards like BlueStateRed who I am sure is an embarrassment to all intelligent members of the human race including americans. I lived in the US and like americans. Its a great country….and they, like Canada, have some twits like him who we wish would just STFU.
@reclaimer….
Let me guess….you are writing these comments between recess periods.
You are soooooo lame.
ChrissyOne:
Good ole Tricky Dick™ Nixon would be considered too liberal to make it as a Republican today.
McCain & Microsoft: Stuck in the past, a perfect match.
McCain-Romney ’08
There are UFOs flying in one of my ears and out the other…
I’m surprised that my followers think I can actually become president. Even I’m not that crazy!
The world is going to explode!
Unless you buy carbon credits from my company.
@ MacBill:
“Anybody who votes Republican is basically inhumane and unhuman.”
Or they’re someone who doesn’t believe that they should give up individual liberty or success. Or they believe in the free market. Or they believe that the government is a fiscally irresponsible, bureaucratic monopoly that should be given only enough power to protect us from each other and not an ounce more.
Get a clue. Yes, there are fundamental problems with some Republican party beliefs. But there are also fundamental problems with some Democratic party beliefs. What’s destroyed democracy in America is that there are only two viable political parties, and those of us whose beliefs lie somewhere in the middle are stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils.
@MacBill the idiot Democrat.
I bet you can lick your own asshole since your thinking is so contorted… and you do.
Blacks in the U.S. need to start trusting the rest of us more, stop believing these ridiculous ideas that the pastor was preaching, stop spewing vitriol about white people, and take more responsibility for the situation they are in.
Yeah, they need to realize it’s their fault they’re descended from slaves and live in a generally racist culture that discriminates against them even today. Next time they should choose the womb they come out of and the history of the culture in which that womb exists in more carefully. I mean it’s not like after the Civil War African Americans didn’t have any opportunities. Sure, all the wealth was still in the white man’s hands. And all the land. And all the laws were still pretty much slanted in the white man’s favor. And yeah that went on right up until the 1960s, but Jeebus on a kosher biscuit, why do they have to keep complaining about it? All that white on black lynching, legal harassment, hasty executions, belligerent segregation, and social indifference are ancient history, I mean seriously, it’s like a thousand years ago. It’s not like any of them from back then are still alive.
Well said, effwerd.
@ nonarKitten
… and you have the greatest rock band in the history of humankind:
RUSH !!!
(Sorry, guys, I’m not into politics, but I’m a huge Rush fan)
Europe and Canada are being slowly, and legally, overtaken by Muslim citizens. In the next hundred years, Muslims will probably be running most of the governments in Europe and probably your precious Canada as well – legally.
First, get over anti-Muslim self.
Second, what don’t you like about democracy? If Muslims “overtake” Europe and Canada, wouldn’t they be representing “the people” of Europe and Canada? Or are you just saying, “Europe and Canada must remain white and Christian”?
I told you same (or very similar) idiots right on these very pages a couple of years ago that Bush would win re-election and you all screamed that I was nuts. “Kerry!” you all shouted.
So, once again, for those who need repetition: America will not elect a black man or a woman as president. Maybe in a decade or so, but not now. Yes, we here are all enlightened people and would never vote based on race or gender, but large swaths of the U.S. are not enlightened and will vote based on race and gender.
Here’s the deal, get used to it:
President John McCain
The Democrats have set themselves up for failure yet again and will nominate the unelectable, just like they do almost every single time.
@Chrissy One: “Bottom line, they’re all liars.”
“Truer words will not be typed in this thread.”
I got some for you: Lyndon Larouche will NOT win the next election.
Effward,
It has nothing to do with being “white” and/or “Christian”. First of all, Muslim is not a race, it’s a religion. There are plenty of caucasian Muslims too. I’m not anti-Muslim. I’m against the practices they currently uphold. I’m an atheist. I wish all religion would go away, but I respect people’s right to believe in whatever religion they want as long as it doesn’t infringe on other people’s rights. Muslim beliefs infringe on other people’s rights.
Second, obviously I’m not against democracy. Yes, if Muslim leaders are elected into office in Europe and Canada, that will most likely represent the will of the people, and that’s fine. But my hope is that by the time that happens, the views of Islam will change enough that women will have equal rights with men, and they won’t be subject to death for being raped, and homosexuals won’t be stoned to death, and people will not be killed and property destroyed because someone made a cartoon that showed Allah. Are you arguing that these examples are not the realities of Islam today? Sure, you could argue that these are the actions carried out by the fundamentalist minority, but very few of the “moderate” majority are willing to speak out against this type of behavior. That needs to change.
Personally, I don’t care if people worship potatoes as long as they don’t behead others who do not in the name of Spud.
So, once again, for those who need repetition: America will not elect a black man or a woman as president. Maybe in a decade or so, but not now.
It was stupid and bigoted the first time you said it. Why do you think it bears repeating? Oh, yeah, that’s right: those in doubt tend to insist the most.
@effwerd,
Sorr, but I believe in living in the present even if someone was alive to experience discrimination. I don’t see the Irish bitching about their situation to England or the rest of the world, and that is more recent than the civil rights movement.
I think there is just as much “reverse discrimination/racism” (which should be called just discrimination or racism) and racist attitudes in the black community toward whites as there is in the white community toward blacks. I, for one, have never used a racial slur towards a black person, but I have been called a “bitch ass white boy” over two dozen times by black people. I routinely hear them refer to someone as a “white boy”. Substitute black for white and ask yourself why one is OK but another is not.
I have been deliberately overcharged in black-owned stores just because I’m white. There is no other reason for a black person in line in front of me who is buying the exact same item to be charged one price (the listed price) and I am charged a higher price than racism. It wasn’t right when white people did it to blacks and it isn’t right the other way, too. Things need to go both ways. There cannot be a double standard.
It is possible to rise up out of a poor neighborhood and be successful. I have taken care of multiple black kids who have grown up to be a doctor, lawyer, run a company, etc., including some physicians I have worked with. They grew up in the worst North Philly neighborhoods, and they would agree 100% with my statements today. Having sex at 14 is a choice. Doing drugs is a choice. Dropping out of school is a choice. Robbing people at gun point is a choice. Regardless of your home situation, you are never forced to make these choices. Citing the past as a cause of your current plight is making excuses. Granted, there is still racism in the U.S., but I believe the VAST majority of whites in this country are not racist, don’t discriminate, and want to see blacks get ahead. I may have a skewed perspective on things having only lived in the midwest and northeast, but there must be at least an effort made to help yourself, which in the poor, black, inner city patients that I take care of, I have not seen in most. They are very content to live on welfare or on social security via (bogus) permanent disability. But, of course, this is not true of everyone as I said.
All hail Spud, the Invicible!
Our first dic-tater?
First of all, Muslim is not a race, it’s a religion
Thank you for that, oh, stater of the obvious.
Muslim beliefs infringe on other people’s rights.
I’m sorry. How do beliefs infringe on anything? Beliefs don’t infringe, people do. They choose to, they are not compelled by their beliefs. These are issues of individuals, you are characterizing a people by their worst elements. You clump a billion people into the “scary” category because a small percentage of them are radicals, and their “holy book” frightens you. (See below for more!)
But my hope is that by the time that happens, the views of Islam will change enough that women will have equal rights with men, and they won’t be subject to death for being raped, and homosexuals won’t be stoned to death, and people will not be killed and property destroyed because someone made a cartoon that showed Allah. Are you arguing that these examples are not the realities of Islam today?
That’s an awesome hope and I’m sure by talking shit about the Muslims and mongering fear over their migrations will help you see that hope realized.
Sure, you could argue that these are the actions carried out by the fundamentalist minority, but very few of the “moderate” majority are willing to speak out against this type of behavior. That needs to change.
Ugh! I had to deal with this shit recently when some other idiot atheist (I’m an atheist, too) tried to assert that religious moderates enable the radicals because they don’t speak out enough against the radical agenda and their actions! What nonsense. Here’s a hint: if you have to strain credulity to make your case for blaming innocents, rethink.
2 points Ampar
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Sorr, but I believe in living in the present even if someone was alive to experience discrimination.
That’s great. I’m sure your platitudes will make it all better.
Screw you all. I’ll be writing in Hagbard Celine. And if you don’t like it, he’ll punch you in the nose.
“That’s great. I’m sure your platitudes will make it all better.”
Nope. Each person must make themselves and their situation better.
It is possible to rise up out of a poor neighborhood and be successful.
A few anecdotes do not discount the reality.
And ultimately, I think you’ve missed the point of Barack’s speech. We need to seek to understand why there is so much hatred and distrust and confront that. Coming up with these trite platitudes about how they should just live in the present and get over the past is not confronting their real feelings and experiences. And it’s kind of insulting with its condescending and pandering tone. Same with these anecdotes. Executing a perfect life isn’t easy. And it’s no ones fault for not being well adapted to this bureaucratic nightmare of a society. “Well, these few black kids I knew were able to do it, what’s the problem with the rest of ‘them’?” isn’t really the way to promote the healing and it isn’t taking into account the complexity of both culture and individual human beings.
Each person must make themselves and their situation better.
Hey, if it helps you sleep better at night, more power to you. But you really need to accept that since humans are a social upper primate your statement is patently ridiculous.
“Thank you for that, oh, stater of the obvious.”
You brought up race, not me.
“I’m sorry. How do beliefs infringe on anything? Beliefs don’t infringe, people do. They choose to, they are not compelled by their beliefs. These are issues of individuals, you are characterizing a people by their worst elements. You clump a billion people into the “scary” category because a small percentage of them are radicals, and their “holy book” frightens you.”
They are not compelled by their religious beliefs? Are you being serious? OK, so their religion has nothing to do with it. The people behind 9/11, the British train/bus bombings, all the various beheadings over the last few years, the suicide bombers in Israel – they were just a bunch of bad apples? Come on, man. Of course their religious beliefs are fueling their actions.
“That’s an awesome hope and I’m sure by talking shit about the Muslims and mongering fear over their migrations will help you see that hope realized.”
How am I “talking shit” about the Muslims? I haven’t stated anything that isn’t true, and I don’t think I’ve even said anything insulting. It is an awesome hope, but it’s the only hope we have if we want to keep our way of life intact. Would you rather live in a world where women aren’t allowed to show their faces, or get an education, or do anything but serve their husbands? Where homosexuals are killed for their choice of lifestyle? I doubt it.
“Ugh! I had to deal with this shit recently when some other idiot atheist (I’m an atheist, too) tried to assert that religious moderates enable the radicals because they don’t speak out enough against the radical agenda and their actions! What nonsense. Here’s a hint: if you have to strain credulity to make your case for blaming innocents, rethink.”
It’s one thing to argue that it’s only the minority that is willing to take extreme action in the name of their religion, and I’d actually tend to agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that there tends to be no shortage of Muslims willing to do so. Where are the Christian suicide bombers blowing themselves up in the name of the Bible, or the Jewish suicide bombers blowing themselves up in the name of the Torah, or the Atheist suicide bombers blowing themselves up in the name of nothing? I agree with the “idiot” you were arguing with. Moderates who refuse to speak out against the violent behavior of the extremists of their community aren’t any better. Read some Sam Harris. It’s not just true of Muslims, it applies to any group. A year after the terrorist attacks in London, there was an anonymous poll done where they asked the Muslim population of England how they felt about the attack. The overwhelming majority supported them. Surely, most of them wouldn’t strap bombs on themselves but their support of those who would is just as bad.
The thing I find so odd is that the liberals in the U.S. seem to be pro-Muslim even though Muslim beliefs and practices would take away most of the personal liberties we enjoy in this country. All, apparently, in the name of political correctness. Very strange indeed.
I eat my own poo!
I’m a little disappointed. We are NOWHERE NEAR four pages.
“We can’t find him, but he’s a 6-foot-5 Arab on dialysis. Call me crazy, but look for a guy connected to his luggage.”
— Robin Williams, on Osama bin Laden
Lunch break. I’ll be back to share the love later, I’m sure.
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Please do. I’m enjoying this debate and harbor no ill will. I look forward to hearing more from you.
To the fake poster at 3:36, I am sure you do
@c1…’Screw you all. ‘
Tease
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effwerd,
I’m only asking for 2 things: black people to stop saying they can’t get ahead because of racism or “The Man” and for them to accept that they can have racist attitudes and discriminate against whites, as well. As I said before, there cannot be double standards.
If you can’t understand and accept the two arguments I am making, then arguing with you is futile.
“I’m writing in Ron Paul.”
I’m writing in English. I’ll stick to that for now.
You brought up race, not me.
Well, it doesn’t reasonable to disassociate your assertion from its implication. You expressed concern over the fate of Europe after being “overrun” by Muslims and since these immigrant Muslims are mostly brown and the premise wholly bigoted, it’s not too far of a leap for me to presume that you prefer the status quo, i.e. white and Christian rather than brown and Muslim.
They are not compelled by their religious beliefs? Are you being serious? OK, so their religion has nothing to do with it. The people behind 9/11, the British train/bus bombings, all the various beheadings over the last few years, the suicide bombers in Israel – they were just a bunch of bad apples? Come on, man. Of course their religious beliefs are fueling their actions.
Yes, I’m serious. I understand your position but you’ve got to understand that humans can use any belief to justify any action. It is not the belief that compels them, it is their own character flaws. The beliefs are merely post hoc rationalizations.
How am I “talking shit” about the Muslims? I haven’t stated anything that isn’t true, and I don’t think I’ve even said anything insulting.
It was a poor characterization, I admit it. But this whole, “OH NOES!1! The Muslims are coming! The Muslims are coming!” seems pretty insulting to me (not personally of course).
It is an awesome hope, but it’s the only hope we have if we want to keep our way of life intact. Would you rather live in a world where women aren’t allowed to show their faces, or get an education, or do anything but serve their husbands? Where homosexuals are killed for their choice of lifestyle? I doubt it.
This is speculative. You fear that a Muslim “takeover” of Western democracy will result in Sharia law but there is no evidence to justify this fear. And you can’t mention one or two radical clerics who spout off about doing just that. Besides, like I said, that’s democracy for you. Certainly one would hope that the new citizens would understand the history of liberal democracy and pluralistic societies, but that won’t happen if you set your hair on fire about the huge influx of Muslims and keep characterizing it as a threat to “our way of life.” Also, you might find that the vast majority of Muslims enjoy the benefits of liberal democracy and wouldn’t want it to change so much more than actually treating everyone as a society of equals.
And as an aside: does this worry of yours make you more or less sympathetic to the Arab problem with the large influx of Jews after WWII and the eventual appropriation of Palestinian land for the new state of Israel?
It’s one thing to argue that it’s only the minority that is willing to take extreme action in the name of their religion, and I’d actually tend to agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that there tends to be no shortage of Muslims willing to do so.
There are a billion of them. They could have 500,000 of them willing to fight and it would only be a very small fraction of 1%. Also, your implication that Christians and other religions don’t engage in this tactic isn’t enough. Christians do not have the same history of colonial oppression. Meanwhile, there have been a nearly equal amount of secular suicide terrorist attacks since the innovation of this tactic. The basic premise of this strategy is that the oppressed population wants the occupying power to leave treasured land. Sound familiar? Is that exclusive to Muslims? No.
The thing I find so odd is that the liberals in the U.S. seem to be pro-Muslim even though Muslim beliefs and practices would take away most of the personal liberties we enjoy in this country. All, apparently, in the name of political correctness. Very strange indeed.
Yes, liberals are the ones with the big tent. The conservatives also have a big tent but it’s mostly filled with golf courses, $4000 a plate dinners, and SUVs.
And again, Muslim beliefs and practice need not become law and there is no real indication that this is what the majority of Muslims want after settling into Western society. You would be better served to get to know some Muslims and discuss with them your fears.
Well, it doesn’t reasonable to disassociate your assertion from its implication. You expressed concern over the fate of Europe after being “overrun” by Muslims and since these immigrant Muslims are mostly brown and the premise wholly bigoted, it’s not too far of a leap for me to presume that you prefer the status quo, i.e. white and Christian rather than brown and Muslim.
Your presumption was wrong. In fact, a good number of Muslim emigrants are caucasian. Personally, I couldn’t care less about what race they are. That has nothing to do with it. I think your preconceptions about me had more to do with your comments than anything I said, which is, ironically, prejudiced on your part
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Yes, I’m serious. I understand your position but you’ve got to understand that humans can use any belief to justify any action. It is not the belief that compels them, it is their own character flaws.
Sure they can, but how you can argue that their religious beliefs aren’t fueling their actions is beyond me. And I’m not just talking about violence and terrorism, I’m also talking about the intolerance that is practiced in a majority of Muslim countries. Sorry, but semantics don’t change reality.
It was a poor characterization, I admit it. But this whole, “OH NOES!1! The Muslims are coming! The Muslims are coming!” seems pretty insulting to me (not personally of course).
How so? Most Muslim countries are very intolerant (I’ve given several examples that I won’t go into again). Most European countries enjoy fairly free societies. If Muslim beliefs don’t change, which is what I’m advocating, logic dictates that European countries would become more like Muslim countries are today.
This is speculative. You fear that a Muslim “takeover” of Western democracy will result in Sharia law but there is no evidence to justify this fear. And you can’t mention one or two radical clerics who spout off about doing just that. Besides, like I said, that’s democracy for you. Certainly one would hope that the new citizens would understand the history of liberal democracy and pluralistic societies, but that won’t happen if you set your hair on fire about the huge influx of Muslims and keep characterizing it as a threat to “our way of life.”
Your argument is far more speculative than mine. And there are far more than one or two radical Muslim clerics. We both know that.
And as an aside: does this worry of yours make you more or less sympathetic to the Arab problem with the large influx of Jews after WWII and the eventual appropriation of Palestinian land for the new state of Israel?
Neither. That land has changed hands many times throughout history, but it’s exactly that, history. I’m concerned about the future.
There are a billion of them. They could have 500,000 of them willing to fight and it would only be a very small fraction of 1%. Also, your implication that Christians and other religions don’t engage in this tactic isn’t enough. Christians do not have the same history of colonial oppression. Meanwhile, there have been a nearly equal amount of secular suicide terrorist attacks since the innovation of this tactic. The basic premise of this strategy is that the oppressed population wants the occupying power to leave treasured land. Sound familiar? Is that exclusive to Muslims? No.
Sure, but what percentage of “moderates” is speaking out against them? If it really is just a few bad apples spoiling the bunch, as you seem to argue, you would think there would be far more Muslims willing decry the violence and intolerance than would be willing to strap on a bomb. Where are they?
Christians and Jews aren’t innocent historically either, of course, but they have at least become modernized. This hasn’t happened to Islam yet.
Yes, liberals are the ones with the big tent.
I’m not an advocate of conservatism either, but my point is that liberals have been traditionally about letting people do their own thing, and pushing peace, love, and understanding, yet by standing up for Islam, they’re actually supporting people who largely practice intolerance and condone violence.
And again, Muslim beliefs and practice need not become law and there is no real indication that this is what the majority of Muslims want after settling into Western society.
No, they need not. That’s been exactly my point this whole time. If Muslims collectively decide that violence and intolerance is not acceptable, I have no issue with them. This is not the case now. I never said that EVERY Muslim believes that intolerance and violence are acceptable, but you can’t argue that, as a people, as a collective, violence and intolerance are, at least, generally accepted in their society.
Cubert
You are starting to sound like a Conservative.
I am so proud….
More like a Libertarian, but I vote Democrat. I just haven’t gotten into any of the political discussion thus far.
In fact, a good number of Muslim emigrants are caucasian. Personally, I couldn’t care less about what race they are.
I agree, my presumption was wrong. I was probing to see if that’s what you meant was racist or merely bigoted, hence, “white and Christian.”
Sure they can, but how you can argue that their religious beliefs aren’t fueling their actions is beyond me.
It’s as simple as the Twinkie defense. Post hoc rationalizations are par for the course for humans from the age of 2 or 3 on. Intolerance of the “other” is deeper than any religious belief, if not its direct parent. People who act on their irrational beliefs cannot blame their beliefs for their actions. “It is god’s will” is not a defense, it’s a rationalization or it’s a mental disorder. And that’s not just the suicide bombers. It’s the entire chain of terrorists, top to bottom. Religion is a pretext to power, influence, or some tantrum writ large. I will give you this: on the stove top of terrorist thinking, their predilection for violence or will to power is the burner, and religion is the metal piece that the pan sits on. How’s that?
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And it’s not some semantic wordplay. Understanding the roots of an issue is key to resolving it. Undertanding that it isn’t the religion that impels the anger and voilence is key to knowing how to address the problem. When you focus on the wrong thing, you won’t get anywhere. The distinction is a fine one, I admit, but it’s there and we need to know the difference and set our sights on the correct target.
How so?
You don’t think the attitude, “there goes the neighborhood” when faced with an influx of Muslims is insulting?
And there are far more than one or two radical Muslim clerics. We both know that.
Yeah, I meant to say, don’t bring up one or two in support of the idea that they want to institute Muslim law throughout Europe.
If Muslim beliefs don’t change, which is what I’m advocating, logic dictates that European countries would become more like Muslim countries are today.
Your argument is far more speculative than mine.
I don’t think it’s any more speculative than yours. Maybe more optimistic, more hopeful, and less suspicious, but no more speculative. Honestly, I can’t imagine how you can consider Western liberal democracy so weak as to wither before such an oppressive, anti-democratic agenda. Hell, GW has been one of the greatest threats to Western liberal democracy in my lifetime and I’m not worried, and yet look how far he has taken it.
Sure, but what percentage of “moderates” is speaking out against them? If it really is just a few bad apples spoiling the bunch, as you seem to argue, you would think there would be far more Muslims willing decry the violence and intolerance than would be willing to strap on a bomb. Where are they?
They’re all over the place. They’re in their kitchens. They’re at work. They’re busy. Life is hard and not everyone is as politicized as we are. And for all we know, they are speaking out against them, but when Murali Khan is standing at the water cooler and he says he thinks the terrorist attacks are deplorable, it’s not like either of us are going to hear about it, and it’s not going to be on the evening news.
Christians and Jews aren’t innocent historically either, of course, but they have at least become modernized. This hasn’t happened to Islam yet.
Again: history of colonial oppression. We revolted against England because of a tax on tea for fucks sake. (Yes, I am simplifying in the extreme.) And we were all citizens of the same realm. The Middle East has been exploited and pushed around for generations.
If Muslims collectively decide that violence and intolerance is not acceptable, I have no issue with them.
Then you really don’t have any issue with them. Humans are, on average, decent folk. They like their community, they commit themselves to work, they care for their families, they obey the law. The reason civilization works is because of this very thing.
Violence and intolerance are everywhere and we are all complicit in some way or another. Well, maybe not Canadians
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” /> but certainly every American and every European. They permeate our culture. Are we more subtle? Sometimes, but that doesn’t make it any better necessarily.
I’ve always thought it laughable when I here the State Dept say, “Paletinians must reject violence.” Yeah, like us, motherfuckers.
I can lick my butt and balls too!
Cubert,
I’m only asking for 2 things: black people to stop saying they can’t get ahead because of racism or “The Man” and for them to accept that they can have racist attitudes and discriminate against whites, as well. As I said before, there cannot be double standards.
From this I would presume you are not black or if you are you have grown up in a secure middle class family and had the good fortune to never have felt discriminated or be held back because of the color of your skin. I would like you to consider something very simple: ask yourself when did the Civil War end and then compare that to when the Civil Rights Act was passed. Then ask yourself, did we really make that much progress in 40 years? I’m not saying we haven’t made progress. I actually think most of the next generation won’t undertsand this racist shit at all. But to deny that it no longer exists is just delusional. Look at the statistics.
As for the latter, obviously there are racist African Americans but this is mostly immaterial. How does a racist African American affect you or white people in general? Do they fashion the law against you? Do they prevent you from moving up the income ladder? Do they deny you services or funds for services? African Americans are not usually the ones with the power over. Does this excuse what racism that exists in the population? No, of course not, but your demand is theater. Melodrama for your own sake, not for the sake of reconciliation or understanding. It’s rude.
“he enjoys how Obama can string more than 10 words together without staring at a teleprompter.”
“Too bad that’s all Obama can do. All talk, no substance behind it. He would be an absolute disaster.”
Yeah that’s all he can do, plus almost killing Hillary Clinton’s hope for the white house, raising more money than everybody without taking money from lobbyists and PACs. plus basically predicting the result of invading Iraq.
You sound just as stupid as Clinton when she said “Words don’t mean anything.”
@the fake Buster at 9:35. I am utterly awed at your flexibility. You now have something in common with my dog.
@effwerd..’.Violence and intolerance are everywhere and we are all complicit in some way or another. Well, maybe not Canadians ….’
You reminded me of that joke,,,How to you get 100 Canadians out of a public pool. You say…Please, can you leave the pool?
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Buster, maybe you and dog have the same mother!
@effwerd,
“How does a racist African American affect you or white people in general? Do they fashion the law against you? Do they prevent you from moving up the income ladder? Do they deny you services or funds for services? African Americans are not usually the ones with the power over. “
Uhhh, I guess you’ve never been to the east coast or Philadelphia in general where we our mayor has been black for years. So, they do “fashion laws”. Apparently, you weren’t hear for John Street’s victory speech in 2000 where he said, “this was a victory for the black community by the black community; white folks need not apply.”
Nor did you read my post about being charged more at a store because I am white. So they have “denied me services or funds”. Many black youths have yelled racial slurs at me (as I posted about yesterday if you would have read what I wrote). I have been chased numerous times by gangs of black teens in an attempt to beat the shit out of me just because I am white (both in Philly and in Cincinnati). They did tell my friend’s wife when she was 9 months pregnant to “shut the hell up white bitch before I beat that baby out of you” for no reason other than she said “excuse me” as she tried to pass a group of black teenage females on the sidewalk.
I have been harassed numerous times on the subway simply because I am one of the only white persons on it. How are these things not racist? I am only saying it needs to go both ways – black people can have racist attitudes, too, and I have seen numerous examples. There cannot be a dialogue as Obama is asking for if one side won’t admit they have racist attitudes, too. Both racial groups need to examine themselves and make changes. History does not provide an excuse to be racist, even if remarks have been made to that person. Exhibit A – me – despite these events in my life, I am not racist and have dozens of black friends.
“Chris,
How much do I have to give before we are even? What do I have to do to prove that I am not racist? At what point is enough, enough.
I have my own idea what the answer is. Once we stop looking at issues as race sensitive and start looking at them as what they are, we will be moving in the right direction. So long as you run around judging issues by the color of a mans skin, rather than what is right and wrong, you will be the racist. You are the guilty white man who keeps trying to overcompensate for his actions and thoughts. You project your own feelings on to others to make yourself feel better. So long as racists like you continue distracting others from the issues, you will never move forward. Good luck my friend. I hope you stop feeling guilty and join the rest of us who really don’t care about excuses and divisive arguments. Bring your friends… all are welcome.”
That is a quote from this link
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25634
The trick, effword, is can you read that article for what it says, or will you fight every word of it without seeing the facts?
Good luck.
effword
Ben Franklin said “Whenever we attempt to mend the scheme of providence, we had need be very circumspect lest we do more harm than good”.
“We are owed”
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/obamas_anger.html
this kind of looks like no one can agree on one computer platform…
John McCain is Democrat Lite. Obama is just Lite. Hillary is just silly.
I’m writing in “Is this the best you can do?”
You may say I’m a dreamer. But I’m not the only one.