“Rumours abound that hip hop star Just Blaze has told all about Apple’s much talked-about sub-notebook, after he was promised one for performing at a recent Apple Christmas party. The mystery machine is allegedly to be announced at Macworld in January,” Scott Snowden reports for Reg Hardware.
“According to website boygeniusreport, Mr Blaze was one of several music celebrities who performed live at the company-sponsored music event for Apple’s employees. In exchange for their work, each artist was promised a free notebook that will be unveiled at the Macworld expo in San Francisco.,” Snowden reports.
Full article here.
The Boy Genius Report says, “Apple will 100% be announcing a new laptop at MacWorld. We’ve also heard the laptop will go on sale a week after MacWorld, too.”
Full article here.
I’ll believe it when I see it. I hope I see it.
“Just Blaze”
There is some credibility. An expert on stems and seeds.
Hip hop isn’t music. It’s Tourette’s Syndrome in between court ordered medication.
I hope it’s not a notebook, rather a larger iPhone/iPod touch device…
Of what possible use could this be? If you have Steve’s phone, that’s all you will ever need. Excuse me now, I’ve got to pinch something.
You sound just like those people who have grown so old that they are basically obsolete and can no longer appreciate new things. Your great grandfather probably doesn’t think whatever you listen to is music either. Or whatever you read or see is art or literature.
Ampar, I know those black people scare you and all, but there are plenty of music scholars who would disagree with you.
Perhaps you should get over your fears and try to explain your theories of what is and isn’t music to some listeners of hip-hop in person? I’m sure that would go over well.
@Ampar
Genius definition! I will begin using it today! You are not always right, but this time you are dead on.
“Tourette’s Syndrome in between court ordered medication.” You ought to authorize this for universal use.
I wonder if he’ll have to buy AppleCare.
No. Hip Hop isn’t music.
Music is made by people who spend years learning to play an instrument, not 7 days with garageband.
Music WAS an art form, now it’s a way to get rich.
It sucks.
I should say in all fairness that there is a bit of talent in rap but come on, they don’t even have to “sing” in key, just in time.
Please, even if you are a rap fan you must admit. Listen to Boston’s first album then listen to M & M. If you don’t here the difference, well………….
pffft … this rumour is a bunch of rubbish. i don’t believe anything until the wawa sandwiches guy weighs in.
Attn: Hip Hoppers and Hip Hop Lovers
YOU are the reason Apple will NEVER be seen by 90+% of the country as a serious computer maker.
Very cute tunes players to drive your obsession – yes and yes. Computers – no, never.
To say hip hop isn’t music is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard in my life. I’m going to assume the only reason Ampar can spell is because of spellcheck.
It takes talent to be successful in every genre. It also takes a miracle to convince someone to believe your point-of-view in the comments section of a website, so why even try?
I myself have more eclectic tastes in music; like Mindless Self Indulgence and Electric Six
“I know those black people scare you and all . . .”
Where did I mention race? Are you high? Again?
Everyone knows Rock and Roll attained perfection in 1974.
That doesn’t matter, though. Hip Hop and Arm Pit farting are all legitimate forms of music.
“I’m going to assume the only reason Ampar can spell is because of spellcheck.”
You got me there. While you’re at it, look up “opinion”, Spankmeister.
You got me there. While you’re at it, look up “opinion”, Amparmeister
The boygeniusreport note was 3 days ago, and did not talk about a sub-notebook, but a “to-be-revealed” notebook. Obviously, that might be the anticipated sub-notebook, but could also be an update to one of the current offerings.
I have no credibility and you have no reason to believe what I say, but just for the record, this device was confirmed to me be another source at dinner last night. I very good friend of mine’s brother works at Apple and he told her about it over xMas because she was in the market for a new laptop. She is not a fanboy and didn’t realize she was spilling secrets when mentioning it in passing at dinner. Until I stopped her and said “what?” It’s just a really super thin and lightweight 12-13 inch laptop with no optical drive.
No touch screen or anything.
For the record.
I have what’s considered a pretty eclectic taste in music. My collection includes jazz, swing, blues, R&B;, funk, soul, disco, rock, pop, reggae, ska, surf, classical, punk, grunge, indie, country, bluegrass, heavy metal, electronica, folk etc. I keep up to date on a lot of the new stuff and have purchased many new releases from 2007 alone. I can listen to Burt Bacharach and Captain Beefheart in the same day and be perfectly happy.
But for the life of me, I would rather slowly gouge my eyes out than listen to a CD’s worth of hip hop or rap or whatever you want to call it. Good or bad, I don’t deny rap’s influence on society, but it’s just really, really, REALLY hard on the ears. Not to mention irritating, annoying, and just plain bothersome. If you can listen to rap/hip hop, more power to you, but I can’t get through 10 seconds without turning it off.
Tourette’s Syndrome is right……..
Yours is the most racist post here! What makes you think Hip Hop belongs to black people??? And if that’s possible, doesn’t Jazz? Isn’t it then possible to think that Jazz is a great art form and Hip Hop is pure garbage?
I sooooo agree with folks. Rap is s…t! It is a made believe art form from people that aren’t musicians.
Yuck
Unfortunately, rap and hip hop have moved beyond being a ‘black’ thing. There are too many brain dead white boys out there who are into that garbage.
Someone’s age, whether young or old, does not necessarily determine their likes or tolerances in music. My music collection runs from the Medieval period to the present, in all genres, including music from other countries around the world. I can accept and appreciate a lot of strange and bizarre vocal and instrumental types.
I cannot include typical rap and hip hop among them.
When they refer to many of these miscreants as ‘artists’ it makes me cringe. Now, if they actually do have any musical abilities and utilize them in their work, then I can accept that as music, even though I wouldn’t possibly want to listen to it. There are some recent songs that have rap blended into them that I don’t mind, but those performers have talent. Being black, putting on ten pounds of gold jewelry and wearing your cap sideways doesn’t mean you have talent or that what you are spewing out is music.
Scholars, whether in music or anything else, are a dime a dozen. You can always find some who will praise the newest and most different thing. Look at the art ‘scholars’ who think displaying bloody animal parts or vomiting on a canvas constitute art.
What’s sad is that if you get enough people who won’t speak their mind because they are afraid of being labeled racist or intolerant or an old fart, then this kind of crap becomes acceptable and mainstream. And now we have ‘Stars’ like Just Blaze who are treated like royalty when they haven’t earned or deserve squat.
Anyone who thinks I am a bigoted jerk for my feelings is welcome to believe that, because I really don’t care.
Wow, and you guys are all computer dorks.
Have you ever tried to rap? Do you you know hard it is to do? Why don’t you try to learn the lyrics, and sing along with it a few times, you’ll understand then. Im not a rap fan myself, but you have to give credit where credit is due. It is a legitimate form of music period.
In no place did I see one racist comment from Ampar. But is hip-hop is what you call music, you don’t know what real music is. It is at best R&B;with cacophony mixed in. Not all of it is “bad”, in fact some of the lyrics are great and sometimes downright hilarious (“I’m so high I can eat a star!”). But I’ll take classic rock any day over hip-hop.
Besides that debate, the comment Just Blaze does not tell us anything except a notebook will be introduced at MacWorld. Nothing about touch screen, or giant iPhone/Newton 2.0, or subnotebook. It could just be a new style MacBook. So before we all piss our pants, let’s wait until the keynote. Period.
The MacSlate and it’s Multi-Touch UI driven.
anyone else think he won’t get one now that he’s blabbed about it?
Hip-hop, rap = crap. Whatever happened to music? Just wait for 20 years and see how much of the noise of today is remembered.
All these people complaining about hip hop have no clue what they’re talking about.
It’s like me saying Opera singers are all crap when I really have no clue about Opera or Opera singers in general. Ampar is just ignorant. and her statement clearly represents that.
So Ampar, besides macs, tell me more about your interests and I’ll give you my opinions about them.
Every previous generation calls the current generation’s music out. It’s an effing cycle you stupid morons.
All of you old farts like Ampar and Ron, you idiots probably grew up listening to the Beatles and whoever the hell else you were into back in the 60s. And you know what? You’re parents probably hated that music and encouraged you to listen to Sinatra, or some other old crooner that you couldn’t stand but that they enjoyed.
It’s the same crap over and over again. This generation enjoys hip hop, get it in your head and shut the hell up. All these idiots being so self-righteous about what they deem as ‘real music’ need to get a life.
This isn’t the 60’s anymore, times are a changing. The world changes, culture moves forward. Things ‘progress’ even if you don’t agree with the definition in terms on this argument. Nothing stays the same. You old farts should realize this but you’re blinded by your ignorance.
Ampar is a chick? I mean a woman?
@ Antiracist
So what would you say to a black person that thinks rap isn’t music? Or do they all like it?
Hey Ron,
hip hop is already over 20 years old you ignorant piece of garbage. And there’s plenty of classics from the original era that are well-known and loved by the enthusiasts.
Just like you and your beloved folk singers.
It’s all relative you moron.
@ Ampar
I don’t think I can party with anyone who thinks California Love isn’t music.
Jus’ sayin’.
Ha ha! I guess he told you Ampar and ron, ya old farts!
Hip hop and rap: the unintelligent listening to the untalented.
Rap may not be easy to do, as several of its supporters on this thread have pointed out, BUT that doesn’t make it MUSIC. There are a few songs that blend in rap that I enjoy. But music needs MELODY and songs require SINGING. On the whole, rap is junk compared to real music. And we’re stuck with it because a bunch of wannabe suburban white boys like to pretend that they’re street thugs–that’s the embarrassing part.
Music implies tonality; even percussive instruments have tonality. Rap is largely monotone, without any sort of sense of pitch or tonality. It is speaking with rhythm; however, just because there are notes being played in the background doesn’t mean that rap itself is music. The act of “rapping” is not music.
ChrissyOne,
“California Love”. Was that by the Beach Boys?
@ LorD1776
Well no, but the harmonies would have been stunning.
@ Jake
Thank you for showing us the proper rules for music. How very rock & roll.
“If you don’t bring back my m****f*****n money or my m***f****n dope, you can forget about Christmas n***a, cause you ain’t gon even see New Years.”
Walk around singing this.
Unfortunately Dipper Dapper, all too often these days ‘progress’ means dumbing down. I have 10 and 14 year old kids and they tell me that rap and hip hop are excrement – and I believe them.
Mr Squirrels,
You sound like a left-over from the 50’s. Thanks for the Webster Merriam definition, but hip hop IS music. Go climb a tree and chomp on some dingle-berries with your buck-teeth.
Sincerely,
The Iron Acorn
Here we go again with the race card. I thought Cochrane was dead.
Anyway, this bears repeating…
Actually, the only thing worse than – and even MORE boring than rap or hiphop ‘music’ – is country music. Same ig’nant jerks, diff’ent ‘hoods.
But, if you’re really interested in ‘black music’, try those that are worthy:
Louis Armstrong•
Chuck Berry
James Brown
Tracy Chapman *
Ray Charles *
Jimmy Cliff *
George Clinton/Parliament
Sam Cooke
Nat “King” Cole
John Coltrane
Commodores/Lionel Richie
Bo Diddley *
“Fats” Domino
Earth, Wind and Fire
Aretha Franklin *
Marvin Gaye
Jimi Hendrix *
Janet Jackson
Michael Jackson
Stanley Jordan
B. B. King **
Lenny Kravitz *
Living Color *
Bob Marley
Thelonious Monk (I’ll bet someone at these forums knows this dude!)
Johnny Nash•
Aaron Neville
Billy Preston•
Prince *
Otis Redding *
Seal *
Smokey Robinson
Sly & the Family Stone *
Staple Sisters *
The Supremes
Tina Turner
Luther Vandross
Muddy Waters
Stevie Wonder *
War *
@ Iron Acorn:
I’m actually 23 and a a writer/musician who has listened to and occasionally enjoys a little hip-hop. That doesn’t mean its music.
Hip-Hop – hip-hop is dead
<repeat>
<repeat>
<repeat>
<repeat>
-NAS
I love how people come up with arbitrary criteria to justify their own music taste, then project that on to everyone around them. Why do people do this?
Music is expression. Expression of your loves, your hates, the struggles and challenges in your life. And above all it’s personal. Who are any of you to judge what is important to someone else? What do you know of what it’s like to grow up in an urban black neighborhood while your sitting in a big house in a wealthy white suburb? You think everyone should just pop in some James Taylor while they’re rollin’ with their boys?
This conversation always pisses me off, so I’m going to leave it now. Have fun trashing me while I’m gone. I’ll be in my car, listening to a playlist that includes rap, country, teckno, and a little bit of Bach.
Enjoy your one-genre wonders.
-c
Oh is that right Mr. Squirrels? Well tell me then, what kind of music do you perform? We’ll see if what you do is really music.
I write singer-songwriter stuff, play lead guitar for an r&b;/jazz group, and mess around with straight jazz.
@Hint Hammer:
Add
Stylistics
Ojays
Parliament
George Clinton
5th Dimension
Patti LaBelle
Lionel Richie
Commodores
Gladys Knight & the Pips
Tupak (yes)
Run DMC (yes)
Good lists.
Hardly in the same league as the current batch of “musicians”
Nobody will know who this folks are in 10 years.
James Taylor!!!!! LOL
He’s great, but I can sooo picture all these hip hop haters encouraging others to drop rap altogether and listen to James Taylor as an alternative.
Ampar rolls up towards a group of 5 black kids in an urban neighborhood with the family station wagon:
“Hey there fellas, I hear your rap-tap music playing on your nice Sony boombox there, but I thought you should give this ol’ cd a try. He’s a great guy named James Taylor!! You ought to give him a listen and tell me what you think! I’m off to the flea market to buy some garlic bread, I’ll see you fine fellas in a week!”
What it really comes down to is that these haters are all old farts who are stuck in the past.
There’s plenty of genres that I can’t stand, country, folk, punk, heavy metal. But even though I don’t particularly enjoy them, I still respect the genres as forms of music expression.
@Chrissy,
Good list, even better idea!
My iPod, if examined, would have a good shrink in tears.
I’ve all kinds of music – a little light on the current Hip-Hop, but otherwise, a good cross-section of music.
I saw Stevie Wonder two weekends ago at the Nokia Center in LA – that man is a GENIUS!!!
Well when the jazz movement began, the ‘establishment’ hated it. It was the hip hop of it’s era, and you should know this. It was a new form of expression that a lot of people didn’t understand.
That is same for hip hop
do you think I’m unaware? I know the history of jazz. However, jazz broke the rules of classical music theory, but still involved tonality. Rap is monotonous, and creates dissent in the culture in which it was created; how is that at all revolutionary or ground-breaking?
ChrissyOne,
I hope you come back.
I checked out the video of California Love on You Tube. Now that’s what I was talking about. That shows talent and ability as far as I am concerned. I liked it. Well, not the rap part so much, but I can accept it since it accompanies actual music. In fact I will probably buy it. The song, not the Mad Max video.
I’m with Mr Squirrels on this. Rap/hip hop may be a legitimate art form (and, as ChrissyOne implies, a social statement), but I don’t regard talking to a beat while jiggling as music.
Ok then Mr Squirrels, because Hip Hop doesn’t fit the mold of your definition of music, tell me, what do you call Rap/Hip Hop?
And you’re so ignorant about Rap it’s really stupid arguing with you at this point. You said:
“Rap is monotonous, and creates dissent int he culture in which it was created”
Tell me how many rap songs have you actually heard? If you’re going to lump all hip hop artists with your statement, then you’re just an ignorant piece of trash.
You’re on a high-horse and you need to be pushed down to the ground for a reality check. Your same argument today was the same argument people said way back when jazz was emerging into the fold.
You’re the typical kind of guy that studies what you do really hard, but in the end you lose the true meaning of what something is really about. Go ahead and continue with your definitions and standards. I bet you can read music, but I wonder whether you have ‘soul’.
Mr. Squirrels,
Ever played with the Squirrel Nut Zippers?
@ Lor…no
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” />
And to Iron Acorn…
I think you’re the one being a bit short-sighted here. I’m not saying that I don’t enjoy rap, or that I feel it is a valid form of artistic expression. All I said was it isn’t music, by the definition of music. yes I can read music, and I also understand the concepts behind expressive art versus music; there’s a distinction.
Iron Acorn,
Please don’t use the world ‘soul’. The way things work here the whole discussion could switch to religion. Then it would progress to politics. I know it’s nuts, but it happens all the time.
Rap music (hip hop/whatever) is certainly a valid form of artistic communication… but music it’s not. My two cents.
And another thing…
Popular music in general has sunk to such amazing lows in the last ten years that it proves beyond a doubt that if you feed people swill for long enough, they start to think it tastes like food.
Hint Hammer…
What about…
Miles Davis
Kenny Garrett
Ronny Jordan
Robert Johnson
Al Green
Marcus Miller
The Chic Organisation (Niles Rodgers / Bernard Edwards)
We are presented with some artist making a statement about getting an Apple notebook for a performance he did.
We go to a discussion of how a certain genre of “music” is or is not valid and the supposedly PC, socialist, brain dead crowd yelling how everyone is white and racist if you don’t like it.
Really?
You can tell my ethnicity from words typed on a page?
Isn’t that in itself a racist assumption, as well as assuming that if I do not like something or if I like it I must be of a certain ethnicity or race?
I have gone to a country bar with an African American who dressed in a cowboy hat and boots-loved country music and dancing to it. Rocked out in a car, radio cranked up singing “Paradise City” by Guns N’ Roses with another. Had a Caucasian recite/rap/sing(whatever) some fifty cent “song” to me. My Mother (who is of non-hispanic ethnicity) enjoys Tejano music.
Why is race even of importance?
We like what we like, regardless of your narrow little world view that dictates we shouldn’t or should like something because of the stereotypes in your head.
Like the doormouse said: Feed your head
@nekogami13,
You’re 100% correct.
Also notice how the “not racist” folks of other cultures assume all us honky’s listen to James Taylor? (OK, I do)
The amazing thing about generalizations is that it appears to only be OK for certain people to make them.
I know more racist “minorities” than white folks.
I grew up in Chicago, and I had no troubles.
I see today that political correctness and some sort of guilt has made it OK for some to act like idiots and others are expected to rise above it. How’s that for low expectations/standards?
To say I am racist because I don’t “get” or like Rap/Hip-Hop is BS.
I would guess that those true African-American musicians like those on the lists above would agree that the current music scene is a relative joke if they weren’t quoted publicly.
Look at all the grief Bill Cosby got/gets when he tries to talk about race and the Black community.
We got 100% derailed here, but I guess if some don’t like it, they can ignore.
After all, the original topic is pretty boring and lame.
If a new notebook arrives, we’ll, know about it soon enough and then we can discuss that…
‘Me in LA’,
No need to add:
Parliament
George Clinton
Lionel Richie
Commodores
as I already listed them as:
George Clinton/Parliament
Commodores/Lionel Richie
Tupac/RunDMC wouldn’t make my list, though.
I could add Black Eyed Peas. But, are they hiphop or R&B;?
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
MCCFR,
Yeah, and Stanley Jordan too!
Boney M!
I mean, how could we forget.
Did we not all hear: Mary’s Boy Child/Oh My Lord — atleast 10 times during the Xmas season?
LOL
To end the argument:
The ultimate rapper is Old Mother Hubbard
I guess if nursery rhyming is cool, knock yourself out.
oh yea, Kanye West doesn’t like white people.
I think we’ve got a live one.
Sorry – I didn’t see them as noted.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
OK, my bad
I put them separate as I liked them both ways.
Forgot:
Donna Summer
No need to pad the list, by re-listing either
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
If you figure out what I said above, let me know.
What I meant was — I’m just as guilty of the mistake you made.
@Hammer,
NP – I got it.
Good list(s)
Wow. Lighting fires is cool. I like “Baby Got Back”. That’s about it.
And no, I’m not a chick. However, I hole-hardedly agree with what lesbians do.
Again, just an opinion.
Ever hear of Classical music? It is also called Art Music and also called Serious Music. It is found in various countries under various names but it is all about ultimate quality, artistic integrity, a lifetime of learning and giving back. It does not necessarily use old instruments though much music does as those instruments have been developed over hundreds of years to be near perfect for the artists who play them or compose for them. Some composers choose to use electronic and digital means in addition or instead of those wood and ivory and gourd instruments and that is fine with me. The human voice naturally is one of those old instruments also and combined with the old and the new, it is transformed. What all of this has in common is that it is about true artistic integrity and skills which require the musician and composer to truly understand music,composition and have the integrity and ability to write and perform GREAT ideas. Sorry to say, 99% of what is supposedly music product today is exactly that…product for the masses of people who have never heard real art on their iPods..or good sound for that matter. Take a listen to Shostakovich or Mahler or Glass or Beethoven or (Ravi) Shankar or Varese or Stockhausen or..shall I go on? There is a world of great musical art out there and it is not the sounds of the street and the back alleys and of drugs and misogyny and louder and electronic fuzz to hide the lack of talent or idea. One cannot dictate to you what to listen to but if one person listens to what I am saying here and discovers this world of art music, it will be worth my efforts here.
“The ultimate rapper is Old Mother Hubbard”
Didn’t she carjack Peter Peter Pumpkin Eater?
Let’s hope it will be as or more affordable than the MacBook.
[However, I ‘hole’-‘hard’edly agree with what lesbians do.]
That is TOO funny.
Enjoy your lunch.
“Your crystal ball needs a new timing belt.”
– ChrissyOne to Rob Enderle
That’s my favorite for now. I’m still laughing.
@Mr. Squirrels
To state the music requires melody to be music is one of the more daft statements I’ve read for some time.
Drumming – not music then? African percussion? Hell, what about Clapping Music (Steve Reich).
Yes, the core of rap is predominately percussion – but a lot of styles also introduce harmonics and in some instances the melody.
Lumping almost 30 years of rap, hip hop and related genres in to one “it’s not music” bucket, is the equivalent of saying that Duchamp’s Fountain is not art because it does not use the brushes you’re familiar with. That is advertising your ignorance and hardly does music or anyone else any good.
@ LorD1776
For our next lesson, look for:
Thugz Mansion (Nas Acoustic version) – Tupac, J Phoenix & Nas
Gin And Juice – Snoop
Anything by Busta’ Rhymes
There’s a lot more to rap than you might think. It’s just too bad that people assume every rapper is as stupid as Fiddy.
“Actually, the only thing worse than – and even MORE boring than rap or hiphop ‘music’ – is country music. Same ig’nant jerks, diff’ent ‘hoods.”
granted, it is only a matter of personal taste, but for my tastes more true words were never spoken….
Anyone can go into Garageband…loop together some beats…write some words about some girl…and talk about them over the beat while grabbing their crotch.
THAT IS NOT MUSIC! Music takes place when a melody is heard. Hip Hop degrades, separates, and isolates both the music and hip hop type people from the rest of us. Pretty much anyone can write and perform a hip hop song walking around lifting their arms, but who can play an instrument with feeling and passion and melody and true inner expression? Very few. Playing the race card either against or along with it is simply a very poor excuse for low individual self performance in this life we’ve been given.
HIP-HOP NOW SUCKS AND IS DEAD, IT IS NO LONGER CONSIDERED AN ART FORM FOR IT HAS BEEN DESTROYED, IT DIDNT SUCK BEFORE AND WAS AN EXPRESSION OF FEELINGS, THOUGHTS, AND IDEAS, PIONEERED BY THE GREATS ( NAS. JAY-Z. BIGGIE SMALLS. TUPAC. MOS DEF, TALIB KWELI. ECT. ECT.) NOW ITS SOULJA BOY ( HIS MUSIC IS GARBAGE, IF YOU AGREE… WHAT AM I SAYING, EVERYONE SHOULD AGREE) AND THE OTHER DUDE WITH EY BAY BAY HURRICANE CHRIS ( AS YOU CAN SEE HE CANNOT SPELL) Hip-Hop is dead. and is destroying the minds of african americans with their garbage ( hip-hop songs no longer have intelligence in them, just girls shaking their butts and guys throwing money at your television screens that their probably gonna waste the next day on 45 inch rims) =/. Now for the new mac, i cant wait to see what Apple has for us! macworld cant get here fast enough lol…. i wonder if i can afford to buy it, my macbook is slowy reaching its death here lol
-ken =)
Let’s remember that because you LIKE something doesn’t make it of high quality, nor does the fact that you DON’T like something automatically make it crap. Everyone has their own tastes and opinions….some good, some not so good. Too many people think their OPINION is objective fact….when all it is in reality is a subjective tendency. Anything that’s truly good will stand the test of time……so we’ll just have to wait 50-60 years to see where the music of today stands in the overall picture of quality.
Personally, I don’t care for rap & hip-hop, so I just try and make sure it never reaches my ears. If you like it, enjoy….just don’t blast it when you pull up next to me at the light. I must admit…..I have a hard time believing that in 20 years we’ll be listening to some of what passes for music today (not limiting things to rap and hip-hop, please) on the “classic rock” (or whatever they might be called) on the radio, in grocery stores, etc. But I could be wrong about that, too.
@ The Freeman
By the same logic, Country is just as dead, with songs about life and death and love in small town America replaced by blind, jingoistic pledge-of-allegiance clap trap like “Stars and Stripes” and “God Bless the USA”, or poppy fashion-show sludge ala Faith Hill or Shania Twain, right?
Go ahead and bury the Carter family. Goodbye Loretta Lynn. So long Lyle Lovett.
If you’re going to condemn an entire genre based on who happens to be doing it at the moment, you’re going to miss out on a lot of great music.
@mr_matalino
“I hope it’s not a notebook, rather a larger iPhone/iPod touch device…”
I hope it’s a larger iPhone like the one hanging in the window of most Apple Stores. Now, that would be cool to carry around!
@ MusicDoc
If you would have told me in the later 80’s, when Paula Abdul first got big, that she’d still have a job in 2007, I would have thought you were mad!
And if Paula Abdul ever makes a rap album, western civilization is finished.
It is really very very sad that someone like “Just Blaze”, (whoever the hell that is), is considered a celebrity.
@ Iron Acorn:
Fads come and go, in music and art as in other things.
There’s an old Yiddish saying that 98% of everything is dreck. Pick any time period and see what percentage of its music, literature or art survived. Note that what survives is rarely mindless drivel (like rap). Having been wildly popular is no indicator of permanence. Examples: “Rag Mop” and “Purple People Eaters”.
I saw comments that it takes talent to perform rap well. That was true of performers of “Rag Mop” also. But the likelihood that there will be demand for such talent ten years hence is low. So rappers should invest their earnings wisely.
As to what will be revealed at Macworld 2008, it’s likely that Apple will be selling me something. But I’m not likely to buy anything that was introduced for sale at MacWorld 1998.
Good grief people! Music doesn’t have a color. It’s just music, and it’s either good or bad based on your personal taste.
Now, it’s time for me to come out. I’m a black person and I can’t stand rap/hip-hop. And I’m not ashamed to say it. No one else should be either.
Now lay off my brother (or sister!) Ampar. On the internet no one knows if you’re black or white. Or male or female for that matter. If you’ve made assumptions about what MDN readers are like perhaps you should question them…
Back to the subject at hand. I’m sure there will be a new laptop at Macworld. A Penryn-based Macbook Pro. This guy never said it would be a new subnotebook, just a new laptop.
@ Chrissy One
i never said the entire genre is dead, i just said hip-hop now is dead ( thats why i mentioned that it was great back then, including Nas, Jay-z, MosDef ect.) NOW it is dead, that should not be denied, it cant be, artists are no longer inspired, or educated at all. There will always be a couple artists that are good and maintain what the greats have tried so hard to build ( Lupe Fiasco, Talib Kweli). Hip-Hop was an art form, there is no more art in hip-hop. ( If Dreadful artists like t-Pain and Soulja boy can receive a record deal, than anyone can get a record deal now.)
-ken =)
im currently listening to big pun – how we roll 98′
hi rhymes are amazing =D
(*Artists i Missed in my list of great Hip-Hop Artists* – Big Pun, Black Star, Little Brother, Common, Atmosphere)
“Now lay off my brother (or sister!) Ampar.”
Brother. And thanks.
@Ampar….
Best hijack of a thread ever bro. Well played.
now.. back to the argument. Having been a professional musician all of my adult life I would have to say I can’t stand hip hop myself. But it is music in my opinion. Just not the kind that I would listen too. Although, to quote that famous philosopher Marty McFly… “I guess you guys aren’t ready for this stuff yet. But your kids are gonn alove it!”
P.S. I grew up listening to classical music and heavy metal and I now prefer jazz. I respect personal preferences. I just don’t want to hear yours while I’m sitting in traffic.
Well, Just Blaze just lost his chances of performing at another Apple event…
I think we know what’s gasoline here, Jim – TIV.
To Yours Smugly:
How about the irony of “Just Blaze” and “You’re fired”?
Just Blaze
does not deserve a new sub-notebook now…
He did something worse then ThinkSecret.
Bad boy!
Thankfully, Hip Hop will come to an end soon.
1 -> Hillary takes office
2 -> Dems offer nothing to secure America
3 -> muslim pigs move in
4 -> muslim removes heads of Hip Hop “artists”
5 -> happy ending for all
(don’t even pretend you take any of this seriously)
What respect many people had for Ampar prior to today (as a seasoned and oftentime witty contributor to MDN reader feedback), is now, sadly, gone .. pity!
Whenever I see an MDN headline that has anything to do with black people or black culture, I brace myself for the inevitable inane drivel of a few bigoted people…
Ampar et al.. you didn’t let me down 🙁
switcher:
I never mentioned race. You did. Shame on you.
I said ‘black culture’ Ampar.. Read my post again… Hip Hop is predominantly black. Your denigration of it speaks against an element of black culture.
I can’t stand a lot of Hip Hop myself (although I have some of the better stuff in my library).. but the comment you made regarding it is unnecessarily inflamatory and uncalled for.
@switcher…. get over it, if the man (ampar) doesn’t like Hip Hop he, like myself and others, simply doesn’t like it. And that doesn’t make it racist any more than if a black man doesn’t like country, or classical, or even rap.
You’re the one bringing race into this discussion, not ampar, and you’re the racist. So STFU and give it a rest.
Some people have to see ‘race’ in everything.
While I am not a fan of Rap, Hip Hop, or Country for that matter, It is just not cool to stereotype the way some of you have been doing. I only just barely consider Rap to be music but that is my personal opinion. I can only barely tolerate listening to Hip Hop or Country other than a song here and there but again, this is my opinion. Given the option, those are not musical genres that I listen to. However, my wife (no slouch in the brains or musical taste department), happens to like a handful of songs from each of those segments. As a professional singer, I would sing songs from the likes of the Beatles, or Sinatra, or Nine Inch Nails, or Mozart, or Bach, or any of the names mentioned by Hint Hammer any day of the week before I would sing most of what passes for popular music today. That is not to say that there are not a handful of really talented people out there these days, it’s just to mention my personal preference. Can we please cut out the name calling and stop bring race into this? This is a Macintosh related site not a music discussion site.
Thanks.
should say ‘inflammatory’… I normally proof read but that one slipped through…
@switcher,
As is often the case, folks like YOU make issues racial.
Learn to read & grasp content, then speak.
I don’t believe that the posts you refer to prove any racism.
Get over the victim mentality and move on.
I hate 97% of Hip-Hop.
I bet I have more black friends and neighbors than you do.
I bet my collection of “black music” beats the hell out of yours.
Thugs degrading women with violent and obscene lyrics is not music, IMVHO.
You may call it what you like, as will I.
I’m frankly surprised I haven’t heard that the list Hammer and I put out “isn’t black” That’s my favorite.
Education/behavior and character make the man (and woman)
If you believe we “don’t get it” based on not liking Hip-Hop, you’re a fool.
Furthermore…
@Switcher…
“What respect many people had for Ampar prior to today (as a seasoned and oftentime witty contributor to MDN reader feedback), is now, sadly, gone .. pity!”
To think that just because ampar doesn’t measure up to your myopic definition of being politically correct in a discussion thread, and that your singular objection to his comment regarding music that contained NO racist overtones, is inherently somehow racist, is simply the stupidest argument I’ve seen on the net this year.
Ampar’s humor and commentary on this site is legendary and is in no way diminished by your small minded and spiteful attempts to do so.
A wise rabbi once told me there is really only one race. The human race.
And yes, MWSF is going to be amazing. Start the countdown.
(I don’t care for polka either. Go crazy on that one.)
I thought Cochrane was dead.
Zefram Cochrane is DEAD?!?!?!?
Wow! Thanks, Jim – TIV. That made my day.
“Nobody will know who this folks are in 10 years.”
Who’s George Clinton? Was that Bill’s brother?
What… so now you don’t like Wisconsin?
I won’t get over it Jim – TIV.. GFY! I never said the word ‘racist’!!! I said the word ‘bigoted’.. there’s a subtle difference.. (I guess too subtle for you ha?)
At the end of the day, all it takes is for someone to make a stupid comment like the one Ampar did to see a discussion that is supposed to be a piece of technology descend into a pointless flaming war between posters.
np bro.
And knowing it doesn’t matter, but Etta James’ “At Last” is my favorite song. True beauty.
“creates dissent int he culture in which it was created”
Yeah, I know of 4 drive-by’s that happened while Will Smith’s “Parent’s Just Don’t Understand” was blaring. That Will’s a real anarchist, he is.
@Switcher… fine then. You said bigoted instead of racist. Take the word racist out of my posts and put the word bigoted in it’s place….
and then STFU!
“Just Blaze just lost his chances of performing at another Apple event.”
I’d think so. Might have even put everyone else’s free machines in jeopardy, too. Apple don’t likes no tattle tales!
@Me in LA.. I bet you don’t!!!
@Jim TIV. If you don’t see how the comment Ampar made was insensitive and inflammatory.. then you’re the one who is myopic.
And if you can’t make a point without flaming, you’re pretty stupid as well
@Wrong Again – you’re right. SJ is not usually one who takes kindly to leaks before MWSF
@Switcher…
“And if you can’t make a point without flaming, you’re pretty stupid as well”
the definition of irony
“I bet I have more black friends and neighbors than you do.”
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” />
Just to join into this lovely fracas here
I didn’t know that knowing black people was a competitive sport. Darn, I miss all the fads! Who’s going to raise the bar by saying they were raised in a black family?
switcher: You’re assuming a lot. Btw, what color am I? You seem to know many things based on your incredible powers of cognition.
To get an idea how the crap that is being called music nowadays is being made go to:
Hip Hop stars are made the same way.
Just take a gang banger/drug dealer off a street corner (Doesn’t matter what race, just someone with street cred.) give him some rap lyrics to read, then get someone with real talent to sing a catchy chorus ripped off from some other hit song and mix the hell out of it. Then for a video get dozens of barely 18 girls in next to nothing grinding away to the noise.
There’s now hundreds of hip hop “singers” rising to fame using this exact formula. Now guys like 50 cent are a dime a dozen. (Pun intended)
@Switcher. . .
I love it when people who aren’t a part of a culture speak on its behalf, as if they’re think they can possibly understand *every* individual who is a part of that culture.
Let me give you a clue. It’s not possible, and you tend to look foolish when you try.
As I revealed earlier, I’m a black guy. I don’t like Hip-Hop. Maybe that’s because I’m older. I certainly know lots of younger white people who do like Hip-Hop. Is it part of their culture? I would say yes. Musical taste is a generational thing, not (necessarily) an ethnic thing. At least in the United States.
In my personal opinion Ampar didn’t say anything racial. (which is not the same as racist, but he didn’t say anything racist either)
Don’t try to make this bigger than it is. You and several others are conflating Hip-Hop appreciation with ethnicity. Ampar isn’t.
And I can’t stand the music of John Tesh. Run with that for awhile.
“Thugs degrading women with violent and obscene lyrics is not music”
Here’s a juicy one!!! Subject matter determines musicality. This would mean that you could take something that’s musical (“Carmen” or “Sound of Music”, change the words, and make it non-musical!
I likes some killin,
I likes some stabbin,
I likes punching all my ho’s in da head.
I likes some robbin
I likes some sexin
I likes gang bangin til a muthaf**ka’s dead!
Thanks, Darkness. Reason has a chance.
@Jim – TIV. Yeah I flamed too.. I allowed your flame bait to p1ss me off for a few minutes.. Don’t worry, I won’t descend to your level again.
@Ampar – Good question Ampar… I will be seriously shocked if I find out you’re not white… Even more shocked if I find out you’re black.
What race do you think I am? Do you think one has to be black to urge restraint when posting insensitive and/or thoughtless comments?
Hickory Dickory Dock, the mouse ran up the clock . . . yea boiiiiii!
Pay me my money bitches.
I need to finance my grill.
“Thugs degrading women with violent and obscene lyrics is not music”
Here’s a juicy one!!! Subject matter determines musicality. This would mean that you could take something that’s musical (“Carmen” or “Sound of Music”, change the words, and make it non-musical!”
Exactly.
Sh*t
But you’ve got a hit record on your hands there for some folks…
@Darkness – you don’t know anything about me.. If you did your post would read different
“What race do you think I am?”
Honestly? I don’t care. Unless you’re from another planet. Then, I want in on the movie rights.
“You and several others are conflating Hip-Hop appreciation with ethnicity.”
I’d thought some were simply taking issue with excluding it from being “musical”. I’m not on one side of the other (or I’m on both sides flinging mud back and forth), but I’m generally wary of anyone who seems to be exclusionary…
@Switcher… and turning a hilarious commentary into a discussion of bigotry wasn’t flame bait? Your hubris is simply amazing. If anyone has a “level” here that needs to be raised it’s you.
“If you don’t see how the comment Ampar made was insensitive and inflammatory.. then you’re the one who is myopic.”
You’ve obviously never watched or seen Chris Rock, or A.J.Jamal, or Arnex J, or even Bernie Mac make commentary on the hip hop culture.
Ampar’s original comment wasn’t bigoted, (or even racial as Darkness has pointed out) it was freaking HILARIOUS! It was the funniest thing he’s said on this site in a long time. And this is a man that cracks people up who read this site everyday.
Switcher…. seriously. Give it a rest. You’re just plain wrong on this one. Take a chill pill, drink a beer, or maybe go get some action.
Finally – learn the definition of humor. It will help you in life.
and Darkness.. I don’t think that what Ampar said was ‘racist’ either… I’m just saying that his comments where a touch ‘bigoted’, as in showing an excessive intolerance for something that he personally doesn’t favour..
It was also thoughtless, because the end result was an unnecessary flaming war, and the drawing out of some of the real idiots and bigots that tend to read this site.
99.9% of the time though, I enjoy reading Ampar’s comments.
“Take a chill pill, drink a beer, or maybe go get some action.”
I’m going for the trifecta.
@WrongAgain…
I’ll raise the bar and say it.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
@Switcher…
Insensitivity and/or thoughtlessness are in the eye of the beholder. I didn’t find what Ampar said to be either but apparently you did. There’s no right or wrong here, but I urge you not to be hypersensitive about race and not to succumb to “liberal guilt”. It’s something that can be discussed without believing that someone is going to be offended just because it’s mentioned. Which I’ll note again that Ampar never did.
Ampar has a history here and I think it’s worth considering that before assuming he’s an insensitive clod.
And with that I will bow out of this tempest in teapot.
“99.9% of the time though . . .”
I have GOT to work on that 0.1%!
“I’m going for the trifecta.”
Is that anything like a threepeat?
I love reading MDN, especially for the lively and sometimes extremely funny commentaries that follow each topic
But at the end of the day people… I simply saw that headline and thought “oh no! this discussion is not going to be about the technology in question, it’s going to be a flaming war revolving around a predominantly black issue”
Maybe I did slightly overreact to Ampar’s comment, given that I was expecting to see SOMETHING inflammatory. Fine, accepted. But the premise still stands.. Whenever there’s an article related to black people or culture, all manner of bigots tend to crawl out of the woodwork and the discussion quickly degenerates into what we saw here today.
That simply wouldn’t happen if the artist in question here was a Heavy Metal or Punk or Folk or Country artist
Anyway… enough already!!! Peace to all and a Happy New Year! Especially to you Ampar
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
Thanks, switcher. Namaste.
@Switcher…
“Whenever there’s an article related to black people or culture, all manner of bigots tend to crawl out of the woodwork and the discussion quickly degenerates into what we saw here today.”
Only the reason it did today is because you turned it that way. Take ownership of that. You’re the one who made this thread about race, not anyone else before you.
“Is that anything like a threepeat?”
Never get bogged down by a triple threat.
lol… still bro. My original post still stands…. best hijack of a thread I’ve ever seen. And I’ll add, even if it was unintentional.
Word to yer mutha’.
Plainly not true Jim – TIV.. the evidence is right there before you on pages 1 and 2.
Anyway, give it up already. I already got some serious action today with my gorgeous wife
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
lol… good for you switcher… please re-read my earlier post about irony.
Wow, that switcher sure is a generous guy, offering his wife to Jim-TV. And giving him pointers, too. Just oozing with love.
“Word to yer mutha’.”
Thanks but she prefers Pages.
“Remember to use all five fingers.. “
Damn my vestigial flippers.
Ampar,
You sure are an instigator. I think your statements about polka and John Tesh didn’t help matters. I know they upset me quite profoundly. But I forgive you. Even if you did conceal the fact that you are female.
ChrissyOne,
“For our next lesson, look for:
Thugz Mansion (Nas Acoustic version) – Tupac, J Phoenix & Nas
Gin And Juice – Snoop
Anything by Busta’ Rhymes”
Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Slow down little missy!
I can be open minded, but let us not go to extremes.
By the way, which Bach?
Over 160 posts,
Maybe 5 or 6 were on topic.
What I find funny is that everyone seems to think that rap/hip-hop is all monotone cussing about slapping my ho’. Man, people gotta expand their horizons beyond the top 40 radio crap.
Im the crazy nut who has at least heard of – if not heard something by – nearly every musician so far mentioned here. I started to listen to hip-hop/rap in 1989 or so and do so to this day. Although I only have one Eminem song and nothing by Snoop Dogg, Jay-Z, or most of the others. I also listen to pop, rock, hard rock, heavy metal, punk, industrial, alternative, R&B;, indie, shoegazer, trance, techno, “Celtic”, easy listening, classic rock, 50s & 60s oldies, and all mixtures of the above. And, I’m sure, others that i failed to mention. (Some, of course, more than others.) I might hear a polka every now and then, had to grow up with country music, can enjoy the blues and jazz and have a special affection for classical – especially Mozart.
The only genre of music I can safely say I hate as a general rule (more than country and the most-repetative techno crap, that is) is opera.
And for the record, rap/hip-hop is easily more than 20 years old thanks to Grandmaster Flash, Sugar Hill and others. And it was born out of the same ethos that brought the world black gospel music, jazz, ragtime, and blues. While too many white people (ahem, where’s that mirror) are taking over hip-hop, it remains a predominantly black expression borne out of difficulty.
It may be your opinion that it’s not music. I even know a classically trained musician who listens to nothing but classical and can’t digest the great majority of modern music. Funny thing, though, is that he knows the stuff and respects other’s liking of pop, rock, and the rest.
It’s about respecting others – something too many people here seem to have forgotten.
By the way, which is less “music” – hip-hop/rap or techno?
Who wants to hear my playlist of Natalie Merchant-led 10,000 Maniacs, Pearl Jam, Aretha Franklin, Metallica, AC/DC, Lynard Skynard, Moire Brennan, Kirk Franklin, and MC Hammer?
Next time, if we try really hard, we might not have those 5 or 6 to screw up our record. I wonder if Guinness has a category that would cover this.
On the real topic, though. I really hope for a 10″ multi-touch, flash-driven, eMate replacement. Now that I finally bought an eMate a month ago!
And just what is TIV, Jim? Today’s International Version? Torqued Intentional Venom? Toasted in Violation? Top Imitation Vanilla? Too Interesting to View?
@LorD1776
I think Ampar’s comments regarding polka music had something to do with 4 bottles of merlot, 1 late night with Bret Farve, and the actual St. Pauli girl one late night in Madison Wi.
By no means should we hold it against him or infer that that he doesn’t like Wisconsonians. He actually loves polka music, it’s just all that cheese that he get’s so worked up about.
(Warning – severe sarcasm alert for all of the funny bone challenged among us.)
Lol.. Too Interesting to View sounds great… but it’s “the independent voter”
born out of the last presidential elections and my feelings that both parties have both good and bad, and both are corrupt in their current formats.
“Damn my vestigial flippers.”
“I’ve got no thumbs!, help me out, I’ve got no thumbs!” – Ron White
@Switched
“I already got some serious action today with my gorgeous wife”
let’s hope that the size of your schnagrenfrude is larger than the size of your brain, for your wife’s sake anyways.
Jim – TIV,
Yeah, some people get a little cranky when they become cheese bound. Personally, I eat the stuff by the wheel. While I’m wearing my Cheese Head hat and watching the Packers. None of that wine stuff though. Strictly brewski.
“schnagrenfrude”? Does that go good with cheese?
lol… I’d be afraid to find out
@ LorD1776
“By the way, which Bach?”
I’m fond of the recordings on “Bach – The Greatest Hits”, especially the version of Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring on french horns. It’s gorgeous. And of course the Brandenburgs (No. 2 and the faster part of No. 3). Overture No. 2 in B Minor: Menuet & Badinerie (especially the second half, I like mountain biking to that) St. Matthew Passion Finale is wonderful.
“I already got some serious action today with my gorgeous wife”
Everybody’s gettin’ action… That makes Chrissy smile.
Ready…
Set…
Bluegrass!
@ Whiter than Wonder®
The world needs more people like you.
I was just listening to Bach – Canon and Gigue for 3 Violins and Basso Continuo in D Major
And the very next song that came on was Mombius Hibachi by Melvins.
What a beautiful world we live in. =)
@ Timbo
I have almost none, but I love the fingerstyle. Suggestions?
I agree with Ampar’s first post!
It’s lonely out here on the west coast when everyone goes to sleep. =(
If you’re out there, listen to Power Windows by Ova Looven. Because… it’s awesome.
See everything you say is real ChrisssyOne, and I respect you cause you tell it
My friend’s jealous cause I talk about you 24/7
But they don’t know you like I know you ChrisssyOne, no one does
they don’t know what it was like for people like us growin up
You gotta call me girl, I’ll be the biggest fan you’ll ever lose
Sincerely yours, Kris — P.S.
We should be together too
My girlfriend begs to differ.
And you DON’T want to piss this girl off. o.O
ChrisssyOne, are you running MDN new? So when do you get to spend time with your girlfriend? It sounds more like MDN in your lover.
ChrissyOne,
Yes, that’s all good stuff. But I was wondering which Bach. His son C.P.E. Bach had great talent also. The Baroque period had a lot of awesome composers. My favorites are Vivaldi, Handel, Telemann and Scarlatti, among others. And the Classical period had the biggies Mozart and Haydn; pure joy.
The best thing that ever happened to me was going on a school field trip to see the local philharmonic when I was 10 years old. You never forget something like that. Too bad they don’t seem to do that anymore.
“It’s lonely out here on the west coast when everyone goes to sleep. =(“
Don’t worry Chrissy. Far across the Pacific, some of us haven’t had supper yet.
Jeez, didn’t Ampar get this one going?
I wonder if Ampar is in slumberland right now, dreaming up new things to amuse us. That little rascal.
Motown had class and style, man!
Don’t need to hear songs about violence and vulgarity. Don’t care what color is singin’ ’em. And I want melody, not someone talking nonstop and yelling. I can get that at home.
switcher said:
But at the end of the day people… I simply saw that headline and thought “oh no! this discussion is not going to be about the technology in question, it’s going to be a flaming war revolving around a predominantly black issue”
“Celeb spills beans on secret new Apple ultra-portable”
Seriously? Because all celebs are black? Because blacks spill the beans? Because a secret new Apple ultra-portable is a black issue?
Methinks thine arte the stirrer of the proverbial pot.
@LorD1776
I’m not familiar with Scarlatti. I must look him up.
I like all of your others though.
C1… interesting that you mention Bach. I was listening to “Christ Lag in Todesbanden” tonight and actually decided to use it in a video editing piece. Although for singers… PDQ Bach is a fun composer to perform.
@ Lord… Scarlatti was a wanna be contemporary of Mozart, but not the devil that the movie made him out to be.
Ok, tylenol with Codein (sp?) is kicking in so I’m off to lala land. Night all.
Whoops. My wife has just pointed out that I have a Scarlatti sonata on my iPod. I need to pay more attention to what I’m listening to.
I also have “AM Radio” by Everclear, which sort of counts as Rap, I think.
It’s music Jim, but not as we know it.
@ LorD1776
Sry, misunderstood the question.
I listened to Vivaldi’s ‘Winter’ just after I wrote that (funny).
I was just talking with friends tonight about how kids don’t really have much of an outlet (or more precisely, in inlet) for any sort of classical or jazz any more. When we were kids, all you had to do was watch Charlie Brown or Mr. Rogers. But now it’s all South Park (though I do love Primus…) and there isn’t any sophistication to be found.
Sorry guys, you were all here talking and I was off playing Halo! I thought you’d gone to bed!
@ Micro Me
No worries, I have stuff in my iTunes that I’ve never even heard of. I have this nasty habit of harvesting every CD that crosses my path.
@MacRaven.. LOL! But believe it or not, not all hip hop is like that.. Have you ever heard Summertime by Will Smith. It’s great feel good track.. and it’s laid over a nice jazz track too.
Or perhaps I should say.. sampled jazz track.
ahh… my 2 cents on the music issue. I couldn’t help myself. I want to thank all of you (on both sides of the argument) for helping me understand the issue better. I’ve been a musician all my life and have 2 degrees from a top school in Manhattan, for the record.
I see music as a social expression. Having said that, we could say that rap is music. I worked in the South Bronx for 8 years and see clearly how people identify with a message they are familiar with and understand. There is often an immediate rejection of social expressions that are foreign to their reality (like the Beatles, Bach or Bon Jovi) just beacuse they are “white”. To be white is to be corny and uncool. This explains why many young white people pretend to be black. It’s socially cool. The “gansta” lifestyle, the gestures, the clothing, the slang… The music also comes along for the ride. It is “cool”.
In my lifelong study of music I have learned to appreciate it’s basic elements: melody, harmony and rhythm. What we traditionally consider great music, is great in all three aspects. Take anything composed by Beethoven as an example: memorable melodies, fascinating harmonies and rhythms that perfectly bring everything together. It must function as a whole, with each element contributing in tandem with each other. That’s what makes a Beethoven symphony, for example, so impossibly exquisite. But is this same symphony socially relevant today? Nope! It may be the highest expression of music, but that’s not what most people are after when they listen to music.
Lyrics, in my opinion, are more a literary expression, although they can contribute heavily when weaved into the musical fabric. Rapping is essentially uniting the literary force of lyrics with simple, repetitive, catchy rhythms. The absence of melody and harmony give some people the impression that it’s not music. We all listen differently to music. I particularly am attracted to melody and rhythm. I’m one of those people who NEVER know the words to a song, even if I’ve heard it all my life and even sing along! Many of my female friends are totally the opposite. They hang on the meaning of the lyric and all else is just accompaniment.
So, the fact that I find rap generally vacuous tells you a lot about me. I am not interested in the lyrics that I’ve heard and certainly do not identify with all the violence and hostility; there is NO harmony to speak of, and the melodic content, when present at all, is minimal. The background rhythm is monotonous and uninteresting to someone not intent on that style of booty shaking. We’re left with a lyric with mostly dubious literary content spoken in a super cool way, that DOES express a reality for many people.
The audience for rap is built of three types: those who identify with the stories told, those who wish to identify, and those who do not know any other more enlightened musical alternatives and simply listen passively to what they are surrounded by.
In my humble opinion…
JIM-TIV:
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
You mean SALIERI.
Scarlatti was a whole different dude. He was an italian composer who died when Mozart was 1 year old! And in a different country! Hardly contemporary!
If you aks me, that’s enough. Yes I wrote ‘aks’.
Hip hop and rap is trash. Period.
Sorry, Chrissy…. The idea that art is expression is one of the tragedies of postmodernism, and has led to a preponderance of junk pretentiously called art because no one has the courage to call it out for what it is…. Art is talent + creativity, and attains its value from how well executed it is. (This is not directly a comment on the rap and hip hop debate, which I am refraining from.)
“You sound just like those people who have grown so old that they are basically obsolete and can no longer appreciate new things.”
Doggerel isn’t new. Putting a drum track over it doesn’t improve it, either.
-jcr
@ MilitaryPolice
Horse Sh|t.
Art can’t be measured on a scale, quantified and graphed out. I’m reminded of Dead Poets Society again. RIP OUT THAT PAGE!
You don’t get to decide what art is for me, MP. That’s the beauty of it. You would probably say that Andy Warhol isn’t art but Thomas Kindkade is, and in my opinion, you’d be a laughably myopic simpleton to do so. That post-modernism pisses anyone off to inspire such a view is proof itself of the art’s value. But then, there is more to great art than the paint on the canvas or the lyrics of the tune. At it’s best, it tells us something we didn’t already know about ourselves. It makes us uncomfortable. It makes us question. And after we walk away from the painting or finish the song, we’re thinking just a little more about the world than we were before.
There are some people who don’t like this feeling, and Thomas Kinkade is for them. They can have him.
Give me art for art’s sake, and let my mind be free.
Broken glass everywhere
People pissing on the stairs, you know they just
Dont care
I cant take the smell, I cant take the noise
Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
Junkies in the alley with a baseball bat
I tried to get away, but I couldnt get far
Cause the man with the tow-truck repossessed my car
Chorus:
Dont push me, cause Im close to the edge
Im trying not to loose my head
Its like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder
How I keep from going under
Standing on the front stoop, hangin out the window
Watching all the cars go by, roaring as the breezes
Blow
Crazy lady, livin in a bag
Eating out of garbage piles, used to be a fag-hag
Search and test a tango, skips the life and then go
To search a prince to see the last of senses
Down at the peepshow, watching all the creeps
So she can tell the stories to the girls back home
She went to the city and got so so so ditty
She had to get a pimp, she couldnt make it on her
Own
Chorus:
Its like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder
How I keep from goin under
My brothers doing fast on my mothers t.v.
Says she watches to much, is just not healthy
All my children in the daytime, dallas at night
Cant even see the game or the sugar ray fight
Bill collectors they ring my phone
And scare my wife when Im not home
Got a bum education, double-digit inflation
Cant take the train to the job, theres a strike
At the station
Me on king kong standin on my back
Cant stop to turn around, broke my sacroiliac
Midrange, migraine, cancered membrane
Sometimes I think Im going insane, I swear I might
Hijack a plane!
Chorus:
My son said daddy I dont wanna go to school
Cause the teachers a jerk, he must think Im a
Fool
And all the kids smoke reefer, I think itd be
Cheaper
If I just got a job, learned to be a street sweeper
I dance to the beat, shuffle my feet
Wear a shirt and tie and run with the creeps
Cause its all about money, aint a damn thing
Funny
You got to have a con in this land of milk and
Honey
They push that girl in front of a train
Took her to a doctor, sowed the arm on again
Stabbed that man, right in his heart
Gave him a transplant before a brand new start
I cant walk through the park, cause its crazy
After the dark
Keep my hand on the gun, cause they got me on the
Run
I feel like an outlaw, broke my last fast jaw
Hear them say you want some more, livin on a
Seesaw
Chorus:
A child was born, with no state of mind
Blind to the ways of mankind
God is smiling on you but hes frowning too
Cause only God knows what you go through
You grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way
Youll admire all the number book takers
Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers
Driving big cars, spending twenties and tens
And you wanna grow up to be just like them
Smugglers, scrambles, burglars, gamblers
Pickpockets, peddlers and even pan-handlers
You say Im cool, Im no fool
But then you wind up dropping out of high school
Now youre unemployed, all null n void
Walking around like youre pretty boy floyd
Turned stickup kid, look what you done did
Got send up for a eight year bid
Now your man is took and youre a may tag
Spend the next two years as an undercover fag
Being used and abused, and served like hell
Till one day you was find hung dead in a cell
It was plain to see that your life was lost
You was cold and your body swung back and forth
But now your eyes sing the sad sad song
Of how you lived so fast and died so young
She loves you
yeah, yeah, yeah.
She loves you
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah yeah,
Yeah yeah.
Now…
Which is art?
Rap and Hip Hop isn’t, in my humble opinion, music.
There’s a difference between chanting and music. Music has harmony and melody.
Chanting, as it’s heard today, usually is an emotional statement that is said over and over, in different ways, and not sung.
We will
We will
Rock you.
We will
We will
Rock you.
We will
We will
Rock you.
We will
We will
Rock you.
Alright!
(repeat)
Off topic, but cool seeing you post on this board! I remember you in various cocoa dev sites a few years back that I haven’t kept up with.
You left Apple a few years back didn’t you, what are you up to now?
-Jay
Hi Kids,
More of my favorite composers. I was checking my collection (I have over 500 CDs in the so called ‘classical’ genre) to get a few names that may be of interest to you all. So here goes.
Veracini, Rosetti, Albinoni, Boccherini, Gabrieli, Boyce, Hummel, Dittersdorf, Rameau, Pachelbel, Respighi, Holst, Elgar, Debussy, Faure, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Dvorak (Antonin Dvorak – not the imbecile Dvorak). Many of these are probably unknown to those not really into this type of music, but I’m sure many would enjoy it.
And for the Charlie Brown fans, Vince Guaraldi. I can’t listen to his ‘Linus and Lucy’ without getting a severe case of happy feet.
@Music vs. Chanting
“Rap and Hip Hop isn’t, in my humble opinion, music.
There’s a difference between chanting and music. Music has harmony and melody.”
Couldn’t agree with you more.
Rap may have some powerful words – but that doesn’t make it music. Poetry, maybe – but certainly not music.
Music usually includes, you know, some music.
If you remove the words – what are you left with?
But what does any of this have to do w/ a ultra-portable notebook?
Micro Me,
It’s been sometime since I have listened to Scarlatti myself. In fact, anymore I am more apt to play jazz, world, easy listening or new age. I know those terms lump a lot of totally different types of music together, but it’s really getting harder to classify them all. But man, do we ever have some great choices.
marchingbear,
I like your take on rap. And I too rarely ever know the lyrics to songs. In fact, I usually can’t understand what they are saying. Except for country. They are easy to understand and are often very clever and humorous. But now any guy with a huge belt buckle or a woman with a boob job can be a country ‘star’.
You know, when I hear that old eurocentric notion that “music” requires melody and harmony, that’s when I reach for my revolver.
@Scheduler…
So what about the DJ’s like Fatboy Slim (who according to Wikipedia can hardly play an instrument) who basically take other people’s music.. remix it, add a beat from a beatbox and then get occasionally get someone else to add vocals. DJ’s like these have sold millions of dance records/CDs. Is what they produce ‘music’?
@scheduler
[“Rap Musicians” have little or no musical talent. If you want to consider them modern day poets, I may agree, but they are not musicians and the noise they create is not music.]
When Ornette Coleman came out, even so-called progressives like John Coltrane dismissed him because he was disregarding those “eurocentric” notions that jazz was so beholden to at the time. Louis Armstrong’s disdain of be-bop, not unlike yours of hip-hop, was legendary. He called it noise. In the end, it didn’t matter. ‘Trane ended up playing true avant garde music not long after Coleman broke open the doors, and Pops really was an admirer of Dizzy.
Your dismissal of hip-hop, similarly, will not matter. It is considered music by those who enjoy it and consume it. Whether it is good music is another thing. I certainly don’t think Nickleback is good music, but my opinion on this should have little value to you. You don’t know or owe me. My revolver comment is apropos. Google it.
Loved the ad hominem attack, even if it was was uncalled for.
@Marching Bear… you’re right. I plead a late night my friend. Thanks for the correction.
I totally agree with you… Fatboy Slim, Britney et al are not musicians…
But Scheduler, I didn’t ask if Fatboy Slim was a musician.. I asked if what he produces is ‘music’?
To answer the question myself, I guess in this day and age, one doesn’t need to be a great musician in order to make music. If you know how to string together a few loops in GarageBand you can make ‘music’. Sure you’re unlikely to go down in history as a great artist, but you sure can appeal to the popular masses and make millions in the process.
The fact that you might consider some of that output to be ‘noise’, says more about you than it does the output. Others might consider that noise to be some of the best music out there, while having no appreciation for classical or jazz.
I guess music should, like religion, be left to the individual to choose, consume and enjoy. If you can’t understand or enjoy a particular genre of ‘music’, that’s no reason to diss it
@Switcher
I was once shocked to hear a motiff from a Franz Liszt piano piece as a recurring theme in a Richard Wagner opus. Then I heard Bob Marley screw a Curtis Mayfield tune into a song of his. Worse still, a hip hop group, The Fugees, routinely reworked other people’s work, including that Marley-Mayfield tune and appropriate them. Sting used Prokofiev. Coldplay appropriated Kraftwerk. This is done all the time. The thing that is new is that a hip hop artist’s instrument is a sampler, and yes, the result is still music. Some of it groundbreaking, even as rehashes of older music.
I always figured that if Bach was around today, he’d be using a sampler as his instrument of choice and producing heavy metal. Arpeggios sound the same today as they did 600 years ago.
@Idiot
LOL
I have pretty much the entire collected works of Beethoven, I think he is one of the greatest composers of all time… But I too often wonder what kind of music he would create if he were alive today.. What with all these electronic instruments that would be available to him.
I’m pretty proud of my music collection.. I have a huge and eclectic collection of classical, jazz, r&b;, rock, folk, pop, and yes even some rap music.
Recently I’ve discovered and gotten into electronica.. I discovered some really great music from artists who hardly know how to play an instrument.. I’m talking about artists such as Thievery Corporation, Air, The Cinematic Orchestra, Zero7. I think Zero7’s 2004 album ‘When It Falls’ is one of the greatest albums of all time – you should check it out. It’s beautiful laid back chillout downtempo music. Their ‘Simple Things’ album though is more popular
People should be open minded in their approach to music. There is a lot of great stuff out there, from all the genres.
All art is valid
I forgot.. add reggae to that list and also what I categorize as ‘world’ music in my library.. Anyone here heard of Caetano Veloso or Cesaria Evora? To this day I haven’t got a clue what these guys are singing about but I still love listening to their music.
I guess some might consider their music ‘noise’ because they can’t understand what’s being sung.. There’s an interesting corollary there …. Some people consider all rap music ‘noise’ or ‘bullshit’ because they can’t understand or appreciate it.
@Scheduler
So Scheduler… you do appreciate good music from artists that are not musicians!!
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
Have you heard When It Falls… I play the tracks on that album 5 to 10 times each before moving onto the next track. They’re just that great!!
So Scheduler.. perchance you are open minded after all
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />. Obtain a copy of Kanye West’s second album “Late Registration’. There are some great tracks on there.. great music, great beats, silky rapping AND singing by a great artist, producer, arranger AND MUSICIAN (he plays the piano and percussion).
Play that album two or three times and I’m guessing you’ll be hooked.. and…. finding yourself re-evaluating your all rap music is bullshit premise
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
Wow.. some people! 🙁
“I having been playing music for over 40 years”
Well I guess if you’re that old in the tooth there’s just no convincing you… But read again my previous post as to my musical tastes before flaming me with “Typical 2000s music fan”
Anyway, yeah let’s let it go…
And by the way… I used to play the violin.. played in an orchestra for a while even… I know music!! I know crap too… and I don’t go for the “kill the motherfucking ho” stuff either…
but at least I am open minded.
FYI Henry Binns and Sam Hardaker of Zero 7 are not musicians in the way that you earlier defined ‘musicians’. They are more DJs, music engineers and remixers. But they do use a varied bunch of talented musicians to help them record their music.
NOW I’m finished with you!!
Idiot & Switcher,
For hundreds of years, composers have been ‘sampling’ music of others, usually as a tribute to those they truly admired. And many times even the greats borrowed from one of their own compositions to pad another. After all, they were just trying to make a living. At one time you had to have a rich patron for support in order to survive while creating these great works. This kind of music was for the rich, and their were a limited number of job openings.
I have always thought that many of Paul McCartney’s songs would be great worked into the style of Mozart. And I have often wondered what Mozart (my all-time favorite) would have evolved into if he had lived to present times. As innovative as he was, I believe he may have been something like Pink Floyd. It boggles the mind to imagine.
@LorD1776
It does indeed… I love Mozart too, especially his Flute, Oboe and Clarinet Concertos.
But I always thought Mozart had a ‘happier’, ‘lighter’ style to his compositions, as opposed to Beethoven, whose compositions were more somber, moody and dramatic.
Maybe Beethoven would have written stuff more like Pink Floyd.. Who knows?? The mind boggles indeed.
This should be good for productivity and business I would think. Just wifi shooting instructions to my videographers at events, corporate conventions, etc and voila! All is good. possibly could use this to edit video in the field I hope?
Video Production Las Vegas
http://www.hiproductions.com
@Scheduler..
What I think is that you are a first class a-hole.. but never mind.
I see no one understood my point about The Beatles. Nice.
For the record, I love The Beatles more than most other things in the world (though they were right on the edge of insipid before they started using drugs). I was not claiming that Grandmaster Flash was more artful. But no one got that, it seems.
“If you think some street hood screaming “Kill the Fuckin Ho Mo Fucker” over a scratch track is “music”, I’m glad for you….”
Yep, every rap song is just like that. Every one of them. And all rock worships satan. It’s true. If you like it you’re a tool of Beelzebub.
Signing off this narrow minded sludgefest.
Current track: Firehose – Slack Motherfuçker
Clearly not music.
@switcher
“I forgot.. add reggae to that list and also what I categorize as ‘world’ music in my library.. Anyone here heard of Caetano Veloso or Cesaria Evora? To this day I haven’t got a clue what these guys are singing about but I still love listening to their music.”
I actually saw Caetano Veloso in concert a few years back. Like you, I didn’t understand a word he was saying except for the few times he spoke to the audience in English between songs! But I agree with you. Great stuff and a fun concert!!
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
Let’s back up for a moment.
Music as a concept is too broad to apply to a specific instance. It must be qualified. There is luckily a convenient term that already exists, POP. Pop Music, or popular music is music specifically created for mass consumption for a limited period of time. Most of what is being argued here is pop music vs. music that has stood the test of time. Pop music has no need for value beyond a few weeks. It is crafted specifically not to be appreciated but simply enjoyed. Never the less it is still music.
And what is music? I would venture that any deliberately created set of sound meant to convey more that just information could be considered music. That doesn’t mean it has value or that anyone would actually appreciate it.
My personal beef with our present situation is the use of the term “artist”. This conveys value or achievement which most have not achieved. Now I have no intent to enter into a discussion as to what constitutes art. I will insist that the people who present the music we generally consume are “performers”. A term which used to serve quite well.
And at the end of the day, what we each appreciate, what we form an emotional connection with is exceedingly personal. It is, unfortunately, mostly just our opinion. What I most like, I have no expectation of you liking. And I certainly hope you don’t expect me to care about what you choose to listen to.
Thank you. Good day.
a note to GOD: Listing the lyrics for a 25 year old song doesn’t do much for the argument as to the value of the popular music of the day.
What a tool! Crawl back under whatever rock you came from, you idiotic little oligochaeta
switcher,
You’re right, Beethoven would be a better fit with Pink Floyd. I’ve always liked old Ludwig and have a lot of his works, but if I’m in a feel good mood, I usually go with Amadeus. Maybe Mozart could be the Moody Blues, Yes or Jethro Tull (man I love Tull).
Scheduler & switcher,
Something you guys might want to try is rock/pop music played in orchestral style by the London Philharmonic Orchestra and also the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. They have done renditions of Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Who, The Beatles, Rick Wakeman (Yes), U2, Queen, George Michael, Neil Diamond and even Meatloaf (yuck). Some of this music makes the transition fantastically. Who knows what we would have if a lot of the rockers had been born 300 years ago or the great composers born now.
This thread could be pretty interesting if we would all quit insulting each other.
Grumpy Old Man,
I second your motion about the term ‘artist’. Well said.
I agree LorD1776… I don’t see why Scheduler had to back up his opinion with pointless insults… Maybe his arguments weren’t strong enough on their own
But once he started… I wasn’t going to allow him to get away with it.
I haven’t heard any rock/pop music played by the LPO or RPO but I would like to. Are there any CDs recorded by them with such music?
switcher,
Yes there are. Try Amazon, and google the orchestras websites for more info. I’m not sure if iTunes or any of the other download sites have them, but you could check. Good luck.
A play of light on the water can be “musical” as can the sound of children laughing on the playground. But this is not really what is being debated is it? Just because someone SAYS something is “music” does not make it any more so than if I say that the Pope is a born again fundamentalist Baptist (and you’re a bigot if you disagree with me
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
First, using a po mo definition, Hip Hop IS “art”. Of course, the aforementioned arm pit farting is also “art” by some accounts so this is not saying much. ANYTHING can be art if our definition is that it causes people to take notice or it “causes us to question”. (I guess a George Bush speech on Iraq is art then.)
But the original issue was “is Hip Hop MUSIC”?
I have a friend who has a 5 year old who has just started learning to play a 1/4 scale violin. She screeches away at it, smiling all the while over her ability to improvise her “music” so well. But is it really “music” (or is it “musical”?)
Evidently, to hear the hip hop apologists in this thread, yes it is. At least the 5 year old thinks it is and who are we to say otherwise?
So the issue really comes down to; “IS IT GOOD”?
I recall the old Saturday Night Live sketch with Dan Ackroyd as the critic who used to say, after reviewing a particularly horrific (read: talentless) stage production, “that was really baaad theater”. It was bad but it was still called “theater”. Jr. high school stage productions are also called “theater” but they are simply terrible compared to Broadway.
The 5 year old’s screeching is really bad music and probably worse that whatever passes for hip hop these days. Most of us would say that hip hop is just not very good. Palatable to some, unlistenable to others. But music just the same.
Now, to play the devil’s advocate, one could say that Hip Hop is to music what Reader’s Theater is to classic stage theater. That is, both are subsets of a larger genre. Interestingly enough, hip hop may have more in common with reader’s theatre than with the genre of music. Spoken word with musical background. (c.f. Loren Green’s ’64 hit single “Ringo”.)
The reality is, rhythmically spoken prose has been around forever. Hip hop is not really new or even that black. Beatnik “music” comes to mind as a predecessor. If you young-uns don’t remember the genre, just watch the first few minutes of Mike Myers in “So I Married an Ax Murderer”:
Myers:[spoken to the rhythms of a background jazz combo] “Woman…woman…wooooooman. she was a thief, you gotta belief, she stole my heart and my cat.” Beat is just an earlier (if more intelligible) version of Rap.
Still, by the definition of some here, what the Blue Man Group does is “music”, as is a drumline (or a drum circle).
Being a lead trumpet player for many years in a big band, the instrumentalists used to have a joke about drummers:
“Q: You know who a drummer is?
A: A guy who likes to hang around with musicians.”
(Ba-Dump-Bump)
Maybe the same can be said for Just Blaze?
LorD1776,
Ok I will do, thanks!
Let me return the favour.. Go on to Amazon or iTunes and check out the 30 second samples for each of the tracks on Zero 7s ‘When It Falls’ album. I can’t praise that album enough.
Peace.
Oh, and there are quite a few “classicalized” Beatles albums out there. Symphonic orchestras, solo classical piano, the gamut. I used to have one on vinyl and, for the life of me, I can’t remember the artist. But the Lenin/McCartney songs were done in various styles of serious music including classical, romantic, baroque, etc. Novelty item but still fun.
I’m with Scheduler on this one. If something can be rearranged into a serious (read: classical) style then it was probably music to start with. If it can’t then it was something else.
@beeblebrox
I used to conduct… another version of that old saw is…
“do you know why conductors only get one stick? Because they are only half as smart as a drummer”
My personal quotation favorite concerning classical music comes from Robert Shaw while instructing a group of conducting students regarding eye contact with an orchestra. “Never, ever, ever, look at the trombone section. It only encourages them.”
Jim writes: “…look at the trombone section. It only encourages them.”
Even as a brass performance major, I never really took a liking to the ‘bone.
Of course, the most unkind musician jokes were usually about lead trumpet players so I shouldn’t be so hard on drummers.
“Q: What’s the difference between trumpet players and government bonds?
A: Government bonds eventually mature and earn money.”
Of course, being in the band, we didn’t consider vocalists to be real musicians either so that tells you what kind of snobs we were!
Then there’s one of my all time favorites:
Q: What is the difference between a clarinet and an onion?
A: Nobody cries when you chop an clarinet into little pieces.
@Scheduler
“Are there any examples of the London Philharmonic Orchestra performing the great works of Tupac Shakur, Iced Tea, 50 Cent, or The Notorious B.I.G.????”
How petty!! By the way it’s Ice-T not “Iced Tea” HAHAHAHA!!
I could spend the rest of my day thinking up imaginative new ways to illustrate just how much of a narrow minded fool you so obviously are. But I guess there’s no need to… your own writing does it more succintly and eloquently than I ever could…
@Beeblebrox
Have you ever heard Ravi Shankar? He’s idolised in India for his music. A lot of it couldn’t be easily re-arranged into classical, but that doesn’t mean it’s not music. Come on people! The definition of music now is something that can easily be re-arranged into classical style??
Setting aside the “petty” aspects of his post for a moment Switcher, can you answer Scheduler’s question? It’s an honest one and deserves an honest answer.
Oh, and he may be narrow-minded (but in a good way) but to read his posts, he’s clearly not a fool.
Whether primitive form or complex arrangement;
any sound(s) that have been patterned in spatial time
shall always be considered MUSIC.
It is all music to my ears.
Talent is another thing. The perception of talent has evolved to perhaps that of hacking or toying-around, nevertheless it requires skill and passion to pattern sound – hence it still is MUSIC.
Dougless
Switcher:
“…”A lot of it couldn’t be easily re-arranged into classical, “
Who used the word “easily”?
And of course I’ve heard of Shankar, he’s the sitar player who (ironically for this discussion) influenced the music in the later years of the Beatles’ career. And also yes, his music could, with a little work, be played by the London Phil.
“Whether primitive form or complex arrangement;
any sound(s) that have been patterned in spatial time”
How narrow minded of you. Now, to be “music” it must “sound” and even more narrow yet, it has to be a pattern?”
Folks, I am now going to play you my CD of famous Morse Code hits.
Nora Jones is Shankars daughter, isn’t she?
@Beeblebrox
I think his question is irrelevant Beeblebrox. The LPO will I guess from time to time re-arrange well known mainstream works into the classical genre. But there are many (not just rap) lesser well known genres that they wouldn’t re-arrange. Also, obviously a great deal of rap take ‘samples’ from other genres. So by it’s nature the rap music won’t make a great candidate for re-arrangement. But that doesn’t mean it’s not music.
“Who used the word “easily”? “
Okay then, by that same standard… there is a lot of rap music that could be re-arranged into classical music, although not easily. But it’s not likely to happen because rap is not mainstream, and known well enough for the likely listeners of classical music to have an appreciation of.
@Scheduler..
Oh I get it now… You’re saying that ALL rap music is mono-tonal, right?
Right!!!!!!
To paraphrase you… “Learn something and then talk to me”
The challenge with the semantics of this debate Scheduler, is that Switcher is essentially terming rhythmically spoken word (often to the accompaniment of a drum machine) “music”.
I don’t think by most definitions I ever heard while getting a degree in music performance, that his is a proper definition, but we are in a post modern era after all, where established definitions of words can be thrown out and new ones added at will.
Still, like I said, variations of the spoken-word-to-a-rhythmic-accompaniment have been around forever. They’ve been variously called “Chant”, “Beat”, “Reader’s Theater”, and many other things but rarely “music”.
Still, that doesn’t mean that we’re right. Just part of an era when a melody mattered.
Switcher:
” there is a lot of rap music that could be re-arranged into classical music, although not easily.”
How?
BTW, I was asking a general academic question, not whether the London Phil would WANT TO or be interested in doing arrangements of Hip Hop. Furthermore, the question is not whether something is “mainstream” but simply technically possible.
But thanks for mentioning the derivative nature of much of Hip Hop these days. The “music” components that form the choruses or background are often ripped off wholesale from some real composer somewhere along the line. Not all of course but the very nature, you have to agree, of Hip Hop is its wanton plagiarism.
But let’s grant that the ripped off musical line in a Rap song were to be used in a piece played by the LPO, would it not be mistaken for an arrangement of the music of whatever composer came up with the original melody? The original work of the rapper (his spoken line) is not what the LPO would be playing, would it?
The semantical problem here is that “accompaniment” is not synonymous with a “lead” line. The spoken word is the lead (or the “melody” if you will.) Because it is spoken, it is technically, not music. It is speech.
Two different things.
When the London Phil (or Ravi Shankar for that matter) is able to play back spoken word on their instruments then you’ll get a mea culpa out of me. Until then, my friendly advice Switcher is that, when you’re in a hole, stop digging.
Scheduler:
“But like you said, we’re from a different era. An era where accomplishment was respected….
Not to pick nits but I would not go quite this far. Some rappers are quite talented in what they do. You and I agree that it is not musical but I think you would also have to agree that it takes some degree of accomplishment, even talent, to string together the words found in the more complex Hip Hop numbers. Even more difficult is the improvisational aspects of doing so. I’ve heard guys given a subject to which to rap and come up with some amazing stuff off the top of their heads.
So lest the Hip Hop fans get their panties in a wad, I would like to be on record as saying that I believe some of these guys have a measure of talent. They are not, IMO, “musicians”, but some still could be considered “accomplished”.
P.S. Are you saying that there aren’t faces on Mars?
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
@Beeblebrox, Scheduler
“The challenge with the semantics of this debate Scheduler, is that Switcher is essentially terming rhythmically spoken word (often to the accompaniment of a drum machine) “music”. “
No I’m not…
But… I think I’m getting to the crux of our misunderstanding here today… I never thought or argued that the spoken word in rap ‘music’ could be re-arranged as classical music.. and furthermore I agree that the spoken word in rap ‘music’ is not in itself.. music.
but… not all, but a few of the more gifted rap artists, Kanye West for example, do sometimes write THEIR OWN music that they then overlay their rap – the spoken word – over. A lot of that music has melody.. That MELODY can be re-arranged into classical.. Not that it ever would though, because it’s not mainstream enough.
Rap music isn’t just about guys rapping over a beat box guys, and it hasn’t been since the 1980s i think
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />.
“we’re from a different era“
Yeah… jurassic is the one that springs to mind.
@Beeblebrox
I know, as a vocalist also the hardest thing in becoming a conductor, other than learning to read orchestra score, was earning the respect of the “real musicians” – lol
Here’s some more good one’s for you…
How do you make a trumpet sound like a french horn? Put your hand in the bell and play a lot of wrong notes.
What do you get when you have 12 soprano soloists at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.
It is the “spoken word over rhythm accompaniment of which we are debating Switcher. That is the essence of what we call “rap”.
I rather like the definition over at Wikipedia. Here is the money quote:
“Hip hop grew out of this same tradition; stripping down the melody, emphasizing the rhythm, and incorporating mouth music, battling, and vocal improvisation..” [emp mine]
As time has gone along from the days of Run-DMC, more background melodies have been added back in to make Hip Hop more mainstream and of course, listenable enough to be played along with other more musical acts like Brittney Spears
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />.
Still, the foundation of my argument is that there is no lead melody line in what we term “Hip Hop” and thus, there really is no “song” in the way we typically understand the word. Without the lead line being a song, the rest of this is just a debate over how “musical” the accompaniment is.
If that is where we are in this debate then I’m bored.
G’Night all.
Oh, and Jim, that was a low blow (no pun intended) about the French Horn. That was my primary instrument in college.
Still funny though.
P.S. I thought the joke about the sopranos was actually about lawyers?
If this thread were music, the piece would be called, “20 people who get off on hearing themselves blather” in F Minor.
@Beeblebrox
“It is the “spoken word over rhythm accompaniment of which we are debating Switcher. That is the essence of what we call “rap”“
You’re not bored Beeblebrox. You’ve just lost the argument and that’s a nice face saving way of backing out
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
This debate has not been about RAP per se (and I should know since I’ve been the one embroiled in it), it has been about RAP MUSIC. Which by definition includes the melodies BEHIND the spoken word, of which in this day and age, is prevalent in about 99% of the genre.
Of course there is no MELODY in the spoken word and so it is not music. But go listen to Addiction by Kanye West, it has a simple but effective and quite melodic tune as a background. That of course could easily be re-arranged as classical music. Not that it will ever happen though, because it’s not mainstream enough.
And with that, guys, i’m out!
PEACE!
Final parting comment to Scheduler:
I wholeheartedly agree that Eva Cassidy plays her voice like an instrument. Another example of this kind of virtuosity in the jazz world is Kenny Rankin.
Later.
P.S. I too am hoping for a larger version of the iPod Touch, coming in January (though not as big as the one in the window over at the Apple Store
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />)
@Grumpy
D Minor is a better key for this kind of thread.
Cheers,
B
@GRUMPY OLD MAN
FUNNY!!!! LOL
This was my first real debate on MDN, and I quite enjoyed it actually
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
@Beeblebrox… “P.S. I thought the joke about the sopranos was actually about lawyers?”
Lawyers, sopranos, same thing. They talk alot, have an over inflated sense of their own worth, and are an empty pretty shell. (ducks)
The problem starts when you start categorizing art.
Just because Britney spears and the Beatles both are considered “pop” does not put them on the same level.
It’s up to the individual which one of these two they consider music.
“Being black, putting on ten pounds of gold jewelry and wearing your cap sideways doesn’t mean you have talent or that what you are spewing out is music.”
It also doesn’t mean that they exempt from producing great music either. I have been following up and coming hip hop artist around with a camera for about year, shooting a documentary footage.
http://www.beatsand bars.tv
The biggest surprise is how much talent and hard work gets put into making even one beat or even writing vocals. Making hip/hop music is like anything in life, to be successful and recognized by peers, media or fans does come easy; it takes hard work, dedication and sacrifices that most of us wouldn’t want to give up.
What a waste of beans.
And now to the countdown . . .
http://www.macworldexpo.com/about
If Apple teamed up with Brita, they could make it ultra-potable.
Unlikely to be called the MacSlate.
More likely are Macbook nano or Macbook touch.
Rap is definitely not music in the usual sense of the word. Though I am sure we could argue rap is music (in the sense of a rhythmic pattern) in an extreme marginal sense.
Music is more than just a pattern … interesting music is a balancing act between order (pattern) and disorder (surprises). Interesting music is perhaps more likely to be good.
While rap has some short term currency, not much rap is interesting in a musical sense and is likely to have little longevity. Some of it has more impact interpreted as poetry or chanting but that would be in the minority. There appears to be a high noise to signal ratio.
IDIOT:
John Coltrane never said anything bad about Ornette Coleman’s music! Go read a book before you put words in someone’s mouth!
There are several very authoritative Coltrane biographies you can buy.
Buy one.
Sounding like you know what you’re talking about is not quite the same as KNOWING what you’re talking about.
“Unlikely to be called the MacSlate.”
Unless there’s a Flintstones version.
“the default racist”
This was the 400 meter hurdles. And I’m also not sure what makes someone a celebrity. Is there a certain number of people that must know your name? Is it easier to be famous or infamous?
And, yes. But we can always disagree on politics!
“And, yes. But we can always disagree on politics!”
which is why I wrote
“I never saw that one coming.”
And infamous is the new famous, sorry to say.
More importantly, can we make it to seven pages?
“can we make it to seven pages?”
Well, I’m puttin’ my money on that little doggie in the window, whatever that means. (that bitch is FINE!)
I’m off to correct a -24vDC problem up close to Memphis, then driving back across state to kiss my girl at midnight. Good thing we are only working half a day today!!!
Happy New Year, Amp.
See ya on the PowerPhone!
Happy New Year as well and don’t forget to wipe up the beans.
“Bill Cosby, Thomas Sowell, Colin Powell, and Clarence Thomas would concur.”
No, they might say that MUCH of it does, but wise men usually qualify their statements that way. Because they realize that, until they’ve HEARD all of it, they can’t make a STATEMENT about all of it.
And I doubt they’d be willing to sit through ALL of it as anyone here is unlikely to sit through ALL of ANYTHING they don’t like.
Wrong Again-
Hey, you’re right. You ARE wrong again.
I said “a form of poetry, but feeding too much off of racism”, the qualifier being “too”.
You don’t have to listen to all of anything to form that opinion.
You do have to understand the English language, and maybe read their statements.
And that’s a wrap….
Switcher said:
“You’re not bored Beeblebrox. You’ve just lost the argument and that’s a nice face saving way of backing out “
Sorry Switch, you don’t get to determine who “lost the argument” when you’re one of the arguers. We need to leave that determination to someone else.
In the end, you changed the definition of Hip Hop mid stream. You now say it is music if we set aside the rapper’s lead line. However, I think most would agree that if we lose the lead line then it is not really rap any longer, is it?
If I set aside Billy Joel’s lead line then it will still be rock music. If I set aside Daniel Powter’s lead line the music remaining will not change from being alternative folk music. If I set aside Eric Wolfson’s lead line in a symphonic rock chart by The Alan Parsons Project then it will still sound like symphonic rock music. If I set aside a Michael Bublé lead line what is left will still be big band music.
But when we set aside Ice-Tee’s (spelling to tweak you a little) lead line what we have left is not “rap” or even “hip hop”. It is probably going to be more akin to bad dance or techno music. In other words, it is the rap lead that forms the essence of Hip Hop and without it, it is not the same genre at all. Proof? Play <i>just the accompaniment trax<> to an, as yet unreleased rap song for an audience and let them tell you what genre the music falls into. One thing is for sure, they won’t classify it as rap.
Claiming that the accompaniment to a rap “song” is what helps make Rap/Hip Hop music is, I’m sorry to report, a tedious and pedantic argument, which is why I said I was bored.
Still, I’m glad you enjoyed the debate. Talk to you later.
Everyone out there with an opinion on music. Saying that Hip Hop is not music is a complete moronic comment. Saying that any form of “music” is not music, then why would groups like Nujabes out of Japan who’s music is greatly inspired by Jazz and played with real instruments. Stop stereotyping music and classifying what you see on MTV as actual music. Oh and never compare Boston to Eminem, it makes you sound like a idiot.
@BeebleBrox
Okay mate, let’s leave it be already.. We could argue this ad infinitum
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
Wishing A Happy & Prosperous New Year to you and all MDNers.
It’s already 1.45am Jan 1st where I am. Time to hit the sack
Screw rap, I’ve been jammin’ to The Wiggles lately, they speak to me on a deeper level.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
Ampar,
Bingo! Page 7.
I wonder what the record is for number of pages on MDN.
And, just why does it have pages? Why not just one continuous page?
“Why not just one continuous page?”
I’m going to guess it’s for ad rotation.
From wikipedia:
According to Business Review Weekly, The Wiggles were Australia’s “richest entertainers” for the year 2005, earning more than AC/DC and Nicole Kidman combined.
That’s hysterical.
Ampar,
That makes sense, thanks.
I just checked The Wiggles on iTunes. Funny stuff! I bought ‘Fruit Salad’. It has Apples.
“Please tell what key (ALL music is written in a KEY) Eminem’s latest hit is in?????”
What IS his latest hit?
@LorD1776
“Bingo! Page 7.”
We could find out:
I heard that a famous talk show host was hoping to get one of these new tablet MacBooks to add to his collection on the day of the keynote.
I think his name was Rush Limbaugh.
And of course after everyone here in this thread is long dead whether or not rap is music will be little more than a footnote… except for those who reenact “whether rap is music” wars in various online forums for fun. 😀
I wanted to find something that references rap music:
“The big beat is deliberately aimed at exciting the listener. . .There is actually very little MELODY, little sense in the lyrics, ONLY RHYTHM [beat]”.
or
has NO MELODY only fragments of melody endlessly repeated. Since there is no true melody, there is no real harmony. There is ONLY RHYTHM. And rhythm in and of itself is not music.
I prefer Mottasi myself
To be sure we’re not talking about racism here, let’s take time to thank black people for their contributions to music. They invented or deeply influenced nearly all modern Western music, such as:
Blues – Blacks invented the “love song,” usually one guy, with a piano, and a sad song about the girl he lost. Crooners and big band guys like Glenn Miller up to Sinatra were basically uptempo bluesmen with more instruments and more melody.
Jazz – please note, jazz was called “garbage” and atonal and was considered a joke by any serious musicians of the time. Jazz was actually going to “destroy music as we know it” according to the pundits of the time. It was also blamed for popularizing race mixing in the jazz clubs and marijuana use.
Rock and roll – though Alan Freed coined the term, blacks called this music “rockin and rollin.” Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Buddy Guy, etc. Ike Turner played what was considered the first rock and roll record called “Rocket 88.” Please note that “rock and roll” was black slang for sex. So this music was basically “sex music” and introduced hip-swinging, male/female “fast dancing.”
This is why black music was banned and records were destroyed in many white towns.
Ray Charles and Elvis faced the same criticisms that are being leveled against 50 Cent or Snoop in this thread. The EXACT SAME criticisms.
The Band – Blacks were the first to invent the modern band. A lead singer with a guitar, a drummer, and a bass player, complete with loud singing and lots of dancing. Chuck Berry was one of the first popular guys to hammer this template home.
Hendrix – Greatest guitar player ever, and some say he set the stage for electronic/instrumental/experimental music by playing electric guitar and using distortions/tones to create a “soundscape.”
House music – look up the Chicago house scene
Reggae
R&B;- including doo wop, which was 3 guys standing on the street corner, with no instruments, hmm, sounds like rap freestyling…
Gospel
Ask the Beatles, Elvis, and the Stones: who were their greatest influences? Who kick-started their creative juices when they were kids? All have named black artists. But keep in mind, tons of rappers were influenced by Kraftwerk, believe it or not. Kraftwerk are unsung musical giants in many ways.
Also, white country music had a huge effect on the first bluesmen and soul pioneers. So don’t discount country music.
Also, listen to Kanye West’s last 2 albums and dare to say that there is no melody in them. They are really good music, through and through.
Also, I’m black. That being said, white contributions to music are obvious and mammoth. Plus, classical music and its instruments and beats and melodies inform all music out there.
Whites also did some incredible big band stuff, pioneered electronic music (which is the future of all music), and let’s face it, I hear the Beatles in pretty much everything out today, from Duran Duran to Timbaland!
My favorite group is Depeche Mode and yes, I hate about 95% of current rap.
I also dare anyone here to listen to Nas’ latest album. It is the antidote to all current rap AND he does a duet with Snoop and utterly blows him out the water. Literally pages and pages (if written down) of complex wordplay, double entendres, puns, and downright nasty use of the English language to tell stories, criticize (hood loving) blacks, other rappers, and basically anyone who stands in his way. AND he has time to indulge in self-destructive/self-instructive fantasies about living the high life (I can think of a couple Faith No More tracks that fit that bill as well.)
And Chrissy One, you are the s**t.
And believe me, white people: Many blacks do their best to act un-white in every way, but most blacks also are the first to jump at the chance to be acknowledged/respected by whites as well (including all the rappers mentioned on this thread.)
Most of us really, really like white people but are often afraid to show it (or befriend a white person.) So for 2008, my white brothers and sisters: don’t be afraid to say hi or befriend or smile at a black person!! We are often just as shy to do/say anything to you!
sorry for the long post. cheers.
Also, forgot to say:
Whites took black rock and roll and made it something even more incredible and special.
Whites are now the current prime movers in jazz, for the most part.
Whites are the partners of blacks and everyone else in this great thing humans invented called music.
So, what do you guys think is next? Will rap be the domain of whites thirty years from now, after blacks abandon rap?
Will Eminem and Snoop do the Hip Hop Reunion Tour in Vegas when they’re in their 50’s?
Will Biggie get played in the nursing home Muzak forty years from now, when we’re all old?
Will a bloated Puff Daddy and a gray-haired Fergie do infomercials for a Hip-Hop CD Collection in the year 2025, and tell us to remember the “good old days” when music was gangsta and hoes were hoes?
Will our children listen to a form of music that is so sexual, so vulgar, and so heinous – that we will all remember this thread and long for the days of Snoop and Soulja Boy and “Baby Got Back?”
“Ray Charles and Elvis faced the same criticisms that are being leveled against 50 Cent or Snoop in this thread. The EXACT SAME criticisms.
Not a bad post overall (and thanks for crediting those white guys like Mozart and Bach for their contributions to western music) but the quote you made above would be hard to support. The criticism of guys like 50 Cent and Snoop is that they are foul mouthed and can’t sing. In fact, they DON’T sing.
I would be interested in seeing a reference to when Charles and Presley were similarly criticized.
Cheers!
Bobby,
Depeche Mode: ‘Walking In My Shoes’. Good stuff.
Bobby,
“Will a bloated Puff Daddy and a gray-haired Fergie do infomercials for a Hip-Hop CD Collection in the year 2025, and tell us to remember the “good old days” when music was gangsta and hoes were hoes?”
I almost peed my pants on that one! I will never be able to watch another one of those Time-Life commercials without having this scenario pop into my skull. Classic!
Is a Jackson Pollock art? Would ever want one?…maybe I would if I saw one that moved me. It would have to be a repo cause those sloshes of paint are expensive!
My son started out playing blues guitar when he was 12 or so and he was damn good. Then he dropped it for hip hop. It is disappointing to me because I love the blues. But I can appreciate his music. Check out “Intricate Minds” on iTunes Music Store…shameless plug…sorry. They made it to number 3 on 2 college radio hip hop music charts in 2007.
Not bad for 5 skinny white kids from Canada, eh.
As an ex-trombone player, I am offended by the trombone joke a few pages back… I think an Apple Sub-Notebook would ease my emotional distress.
/saracasm
amazing – I thought the thread comment count was high because of useful comments about the rumour. I should have know better eh?
Oh well you are entitled to my opinion to then.
Hip Hop is music. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music
Oh of course I might really dislike it – as much as say country, metal, Gregorian chanting, polka, blues and Numetal et al… they are all “art forms of organised sound and silence…”
I just wish they’d both use the silence bit a lot more on some of the types…
for the record this rumour is interesting and as always gives me something to think about before the 15th. only 14 more sleeps to go!
What a great discussion! I wonder if Ampar really believes what he said, (which I have to admit is pretty funny, and no I don’t agree with the sentiment) or whether it was meant to spark a big old fashioned flame war…
Truth is, court can’t mandate medication. They can mandate someone to a Mental Facility and even that’s pretty tough, but they certainly can’t mandate medication. At least that’s what I learned during the Virgina Tech horror.
Wow, that got really bummeresque in a hurry.
Anyways, I dig all kinds of music, and yes, rap / hip hop is music.
My only requirement is that it’s good. Anyways, flame on everybody, and happy 2008!
“and yes, rap / hip hop is music.
My only requirement is that it’s good. “
Sorry Mactacular, we already established that it’s neither music nor good.
Thanks for posting though!
“I wonder if Ampar really believes what he said . . .”
No. It was only intended as strongly sarcastic humor. I should have realized it would spark a flamefest but it doesn’t matter. These threads tend to burn quite well for just about any reason. Later on, I pointed out that I don’t care for rap but I do respect others’ preferences. I just don’t want to be forced to listen to it while I’m sitting in traffic. Or riding on a train. Or walking to a football game. Etc.
Awesome Beeblebrox!
How condescendingly dismissive of you!
Anyways, Happy New Year once again, especially to Beeblebrox.
😀
And to you Mactacular!
P.S. I didn’t intend to be condescending (dismissive yes, condescending, no
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />)
Cool Beeblebrox….I was more commenting on how great it was to get dissed after only a few posts here on MDN. Big fun! I’ll be sure, at some unpredictable moment to respond to someone in all caps, as if I’m really emotionally invested!
Otherwise, Ampar, your comment about rap intruding your non-rap headspace…gotta agree with you there. Listening to Mozart, following the structural and dynamic subtleties therein etc., only to have a car roll up on you, practically shattering your windshield with the aforementioned music…not fun or cool.
“I was more commenting on how great it was to get dissed after only a few posts here on MDN”
The risks of joining on page seven I guess
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
And, not to be too dismissive, I think what we actually did establish is that the lead line (that which makes rap, rap) is not music but the accompaniment (which is not what makes rap, rap) is.
Happy new year!
“And, not to be too dismissive, I think what we actually did establish…”
Glad things are getting established dadgum it! I’m gonna have to get up earlier or something to get in on these threads on the first page.
I’m in L.A. so you know, kinda slow-witted, laid back, say “Dudes!” a lot, sort of thing. All recent phenomena, cause I spent most of my adult life on the East Coast. But I got a hold of the chronic, and the rest is, shall we say, most excellent.
ok.. gotta jump back in. I decided to look up justblaze on you tube and found a long jam session in two parts with john mayer. He’s using a macbookpro I think to mix beats and sweeten the mix. Nice, very nice.
@Ampar
“More importantly, can we make it to seven pages?”
Yep.
Again.
Great thread.
I wanna have the LAST post on this thread. I have no life.
@BeebleBrox
“Sorry Mactacular, we already established that it’s neither music nor good.“
No.. we established that it is music, and whether it’s good or not is down to people’s personal taste…
Do you really wanna go through this again? 🙁
Sorry LorD1776, but this might rumble on for a while yet
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” /> 🙁
P.S. Why doesn’t 🙁 work?
“P.S. Why doesn’t 🙁 work?”
Because Mac users are never sad?
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
🙁 Really, it doesn’t work?
My iMac may be sad.
:-\ ?
Maybe more gruntled instead of sad.
To Summarize…
I learnt something quite interesting during the debate(s) that precede this post.
The whole reason this debate about whether Hip-Hop/Rap is music or not happened is because a certain demographic (which I would hypothesize consists of the more caucasian and older amongst us
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />) are of the impression that rap music pretty much consists of some guy rapping in a mono-tonal voice with nothing but a beat box for accompaniment.
Nothing could be further from the truth… You might find some guys on a street corner doing that, but the rap music that you hear on the radio almost always has a musical component. That musical component is equally as important as the vocal component, which in the case of rap music spoken rather than sung.
Some argue that the music in a rap song is irrelevant. The fact that the artist is talking and not singing means that the rap song as a whole is not music. But I think no reasonable minded person would agree with that. The whole can and should be considered together.
The argument that taking away the spoken word from a rap song no longer makes it a rap song is also fallacious. If you take away the vocals from a popular rap song you’re still listening to a song that belongs to the rap genre, just as if you take a way the vocals from a folk song you’re still listening to a folk song, or if you take away the vocals from a rock song it’s still a rock song. Whether any one person can recognize which genre a song with no vocals falls into generally depends on that person’s knowledge of the song, or the genre that the song’s artist generally falls into.
If someone were to write a classical re-arrangement of 50 Cent’s In Da Club song, I and many others would recognize it as a re-arrangement of a rap song.
Others want to denigrate rap music as a whole because some artists choose to write gangster lyrics (‘kill the muthafucking ho’ type of thing). Fine, but what you should be denigrating is gangster rap, which is a small subset of rap, not rap music as a whole.
Others just want to complain that the whole thing is just noise. Fine again, my father used to say the same thing about rock music. That’s just down to personal tastes at the end of the day. I think most heavy metal music is just noise, and I wouldn’t want that blaring away in someone else’s car while I’m trying to listen to my current favorite jazz or classical or downtempo music.
I hope that draws a line under this debate (but somehow I think it won’t
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />)
Peace to all and Happy New Year.
P.S. If you like mellifluent relaxing downtempo music, go onto iTunes and preview all the tracks from Zero7’s When it Falls album, I can’t praise that album enough.
switcher,
I will NOT be denied the last post, even if I have to sneak back here three months from now to get it.
You’re theory on the demographic of the anti-rappers does apply in my case. I am an older white guy. I’m grumpy and cranky and I hate the way things are changing in this country. Looks like I’m just shit ought of luck, doesn’t it?
I remember my dad going absolutely out of his mind when the Beatles came to the U.S., and my grandfather was even worse.
I swore I would never become a narrow-minded old codger like them. Well, things don’t always turn out the way we expect them to. I imagine if they were here today they would get a laugh out of some of my rants.
In the early 70’s I was traveling in the car with my dad, and he had his usual easy-listening type station on the radio. You know, stuff like Sinatra and Streisand. An orchestral rendition of a Beatles song came on, and he was humming and whistling to it, just happy as a lark. He said he loved it. When I told him who’s music it was, he was surprised, but admitted they were talented. I guess I need to remember that incident more often.
I love music, and I like poetry. But I prefer that the two stay separate. Since that isn’t going to happen, I better get used to it.
But I will never accept the crude and aggressive type of rap. That in-your-face attitude makes me want to kick their asses. But maybe that’s the reaction they want.
Oh, and I did check out that Zero 7 album. Talk about mellow. It’s a real stress reliever. Nice.
” . . . makes me want to kick their asses.”
Or cap maybe?
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
Oops, sorry. Re: last post.
@LorD1776
LOL! Why are you so determined to get the last word in on this particular post?
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
Anyway if I achieved one thing.. I got at least one person to check out that album I was recommending
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />. It’s real sweet isn’t it?
The irony here is.. the two guys who created that album aren’t musicians.. They are sound engineers and mixers. They mostly use real musicians when they go on tour. Who wants to go to a concert and watch two guys on stage with a mxing deck and bunch of other electronic equipment. Funny ironic! But I guess that’s just the way the world is going. Maybe in 50 or 100 years from now there will be no or very few real musicians any more! 🙁
@Ampar
Ampar, please accept my apology for my earlier rant at you. I do think you were a somewhat OTT with your comment, for a vareity of reasons…, but it was funny none the less!
I guess I overreacted a bit, because I was really expecting a vicious assault on a musical genre that it is mainly black (as I have seen happen many times at MDN 🙁 ), and I had just decided that I had had enough.. I was going to weigh in this time and vent my spleen a bit. (‘vent my spleen’ – do you guys in the US know that phrase? I’m from the UK)
Anyway.. apologies once again
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
switcher,
“Vent my spleen.” On this side of the pond it is usually done with a 9mm hollow point. By someone who doesn’t like you too much.
Ampar,
“Or cap maybe?”.
Oh yeah, I get it. Naw, that’s too severe. I just wanna give ’em a little attitude adjustment. I don’t want to vent their spleen – or ass.
I just read that Apple has “blessed” the ModBook. I’m wondering if that clearly means that Apple doesn’t intend to enter that market at all, but, if someone else can “make a go” of it and release a product a niche market wants, then so be it.
“I’m grumpy and cranky and I hate the way things are changing in this country.”
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” />
And the kids on your lawn? Hates them damn kids on your lawn? (PLEASE have a lawn to hate kids being on!!!
“But I will never accept the crude and aggressive type of rap.”
Until the lyrics are removed and it’s played in a muzak kinda way, then you’ll be full circle!
“Maybe in 50 or 100 years from now there will be no or very few real musicians any more!”
Undoubtedly true, though they will become “artisans” of some kind. Like blacksmiths that still work steel with their hands instead of automated machinery. People will call them crazy for insisting that their fingers actually touch some ancient “instrument”.
Wrong Again,
Yes, I have a lawn. But I don’t care if the kids are on it. In fact, since we bought this house 17 years ago, it’s grown rare to even see a kid outside. My neighborhood back then, on a nice day, was filled with people jogging or walking their dogs, and children on bicycles, skateboards and roller blades. Now it’s almost totally devoid of the joyful sounds of kids yelling and screaming and laughing; sounds that used to, at times, irritate me.
But now, with everyone having air-conditioning, cable TV, computers, video games and social networking, it’s easier to simply stay inside and vegetate. Hell, I’m doing it right now.
Sometimes ‘progress’ ain’t all that great. So no, now I would invite children to play on my lawn.
“Until the lyrics are removed and it’s played in a muzak kinda way, then you’ll be full circle!”
I’ve always thought that ‘Muzak’ has gotten a bad rap (no pun intended). Some people lump anything that is light and mellow into that category. I find that rather silly. But you are right. I imagine if a lot of rap were redone in a strictly instrumental style, I would enjoy it; just like my father did with the Beatles.
Speaking of blacksmithing, I have a friend who took it up a couple of years ago. There is a lot more to it than most people realize. It is truly a fascinating craft.
Jeez. Still going.
I’m not trying to reinvigorate a thrashed thread with a statement of the obvious, but it seems to me that, once Ampar (that ol’ arsonist) got it going, it largely involved everyone shadow boxing around the inevitable paradox. Namely, it’s almost impossible to define art (including music), but if we don’t place some personal boundaries on it, we demean it. If art is anything, then it risks being nothing, and the passion in this discussion (ignoring the outbreaks of abuse) shows how important and personal music is to all of us.
Long may that paradox remain.
Incidentally LorD1776, I used to worry about my son vegetating in front of computer games. Now I worry about him mountain climbing.
It’s all yours, LorD1776 (or anyone else with the energy to carry on).
I’ll be at Macworld, so I hope something interesting DOES get released. Just imagine, right now, there are some presenters practicing their presentations with the “whatever it is” in hand right now.
“So no, now I would invite children to play on my lawn.”
Hear hear! I personally can’t wait for my cantankerousness to set in. I’ve been practicing for awhile, but, with kids not being outside anymore, I’ll have to retire my fave phrase..
I mentioned blacksmithing because I’d seen something on it recently. I found it astounding.
switcher: @Ampar
“Ampar, please accept my apology . . .”
No problem. Thanks.
Micro Me,
With that statement on music, I believe you have topped us all, and I bow to you. Bravo.
As for your son, that made my hair stand up on end. I can’t imagine what that would be like. I have a fear of heights, and the thought makes me cringe.
Wrong Again,
Going to MacWorld !!! You lucky devil !!! I hope you have a blast. You will have to regale us with your experiences.
Yes, I think we need to redirect all of our anger and animosity toward those who deserve it. Namely Dvorak, Enderle and all their cronies.
P.S.
At the moment I am beaming the glorious sound of Libera from my iBook through Airport Extreme & Express into my living room stereo. Pure ecstasy.
@Micro me
“If art is anything, then it risks being nothing
Well said that man..
I’m certainly done.. overdone in fact
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
Bring on Macworld!! I’m hoping for news on the 3G iPhone. I’m one of the last holdouts.. (only because it’s not officially available yet where I’m currently living/working 🙁 ).. Oh.. and an unpdated Macbook Pro.. I’m also in the market for a new notebook, but no point getting one until we hear what’s on the horizon.
Since I guess we are allowed to define anything we want as music, my vote is for this excellent piece.
Another would be 20th century serious music composer John Cage’s magnum opus, One7 / One13.
Cheerio.
(any chance we can get to get to 8 pages?)
Johnny Cage writes music? And here I thought he was just a fighter in Mortal Kombat!!
Some people are so stubborn, narrow minded or just plain blinkered it’s beyond belief! But that’s just the way of the world I guess.
Anyway, we’re on PAGE 8!!!
I wonder if they were fava beans?
I agree switcher. Some people are so narrow-minded that they think that a cellist performing on a stage playing a single b flat for 30 minutes straight is not music.
I think we have established that it is.
“I think we have established that it is.”
So, you’re saying they see sharp now? Some might say that’s a minor discrepancy.
@dipper dapper:
i am 15. i hate rap.
explain how i hate rap when your logic is that only the old generations dont like it.
@rappers:
i have been told this before. i did it to raw reese’s “song” in my city. i figured out the lyrics and recited them in tune within a week. its NOT hard to do.
Well this sure has gotten quite a response, and well there is not much more to add to the topic really without getting completely flamed, called a racist, or dismissed altogether as an “old fart.”
But I will say that though rap and r&b;and hip/hop are definitely on the bottom of my list of things considered music, they do take talent of one form or another, yes I am young not an old fart. I don’t like rap and r&b;or hip/hop very much at all. BUT, the reason I don’t like it is because it is because of the “artists” (if they can be considered that) which just about only “sing” of crime, prostitution, drugs, sex, and every 5 words or so is another cuss word. Don’t they have anything better to sing about? Don’t they have a vocabulary of more then 500 words? Yeah that may be their life but can’t they have a dream of getting out of it in he future? I mean sure country is depressing quite often but not that vulgar, and they certainly have many uplifting songs. Yes the real rap, hip/hop, etc artists have them too.
All other things considered I really pity all those people who don’t have a better role model then the artists, actors, and famous people these days. (no not all famous rich people are bad, im not saying that)
Ok now that I’ve added to the flame war. Back on topic =)
I’m really looking forward to the unveiling of the new products rumored to come out soon, cant wait to see what Steve pulls out of a hat this year. And the ultra portable computer sure would please a lot of people.
I don’t see an ultra portable coming this year.
I see revisions to the already established lines, slight revisions not major overhauls.
Something with Apple TV, newest intel chips, some flash memory crap thrown in, rentals, 5 terabyte Leopard update, etc.
Only 5 terabytes? That’s a yotta bytes.
Is ‘rap’ music? hmmm let’s see…
American Heritage Dictionary
n.2.a. A form of popular music developed especially in African-American urban communities and characterized by spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a strong rhythmic accompaniment.
Compact Oxford English Dictionary
noun. 3 a type of popular music of US black origin in which words are recited rapidly and rhythmically over an instrumental backing.
Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary
noun [U]
a type of popular music with a strong rhythm in which the words are spoken, not sung
Webster’s Online Dictionary
Noun. 1. Genre of African-American music of the 1980s and 1990s in which rhyming lyrics are chanted to a musical accompaniment; several forms of rap have emerged. (Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University)
Your Dictionary
noun 5.a. a kind of popular music in which rhymed verses are chanted or declaimed to the accompaniment of forceful and repetitive rhythms, played usually on drums or synthesizers
Dictionary.com
noun. a style of popular music, developed by disc jockeys and urban blacks in the late 1970s, in which an insistent, recurring beat pattern provides the background and counterpoint for rapid, slangy, and often boastful rhyming patter glibly intoned by a vocalist or vocalists.
I think this argument is truly over now Beeblebrox. Let’s get back on topic..
I think you’ll need a special topical ointment that can’t be beat.
@Ampar
Funny!
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
WE decide what the topic will be. The article is just a starting point.
If we make it to nine pages, I’ll rap. Old school.
Has anyone done the “how to tell when a bass is at the door” jab?
ok, make that “bass player”….
I KNOW that… But I think this particular argument is well and truly over done.
Okay i’ll bite… How do you tell when a bass player is at the door?
Just waking up in the morning gotta thank god
I dont know but today seems kinda odd
No barking from the dogs, no smog
And momma cooked a breakfast with no hog
I got my grub on, but didnt pig out
Finally got a call from a girl wanna dig out
Hooked it up on later as I hit the do
Thinking will I live, another twenty-fo
I gotta go cause I got me a drop top
And if I hit the switch, I can make the ass drop
Had to stop at a red light
Looking in my mirror not a jacker in sight
And everything is alright
I got a beep from kim and she can fuck all night
Called up the homies and Im askin yall
Which court, are yall playin basketball?
Get me on the court and Im trouble
Last week fucked around and got a triple double
Freaking brothers everyway like m.j.
I cant believe, today was a good day
He doesn’t know when to come in.
It was funny when I was high….
How to tell when it is a drummer at the door?
His knocking gets louder and faster.
When it is a guitarist?
He won’t stop ringing the bell.
“list of things considered music”
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” />
Whither old fart or young fart, you consider it music even though you don’t like it. Thus, your fartiness is revoked
switcher,
“I KNOW that… But I think this particular argument is well and truly over done.”
I agree. This MUST end. And then I can get the last post.
How to tell when it’s a rapper?
someone locks the door and tells everybody to be quiet….
How do you know when there’s a banjo player at your door?
His hat says “Domino’s”.
How can you tell that there’s an accordionist at your front door?
He doesn’t stop knocking even after you answer.
How can you tell that there’s a vocalist at your front door?
She forgot the key and doesn’t know when to come in.
How do you know when a trombone player is at your front door?
The doorbell drags.
How do you when a groupie’s been at your door?
There are long, deep scratch marks.
@LorD1776
“I agree. This MUST end. And then I can get the last post.”
LOOKS like you’ll have to come back in a couple of weeks
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
@TowerTone
“How to tell when it’s a rapper?
someone locks the door and tells everybody to be quiet….”
OUCH!
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
How to tell when it’s TowerTone?
Someone yells, ‘break out the vaseline Jim, TT’s here!’
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
(p.s. that’s a real nice play on words – for some. In the Philippines… TT, or titi – means penis
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />)
Thanks for playing, switcher.
With a name like that, you can probably pronounce penis in any language….
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
How do you say bang cock when in Bangkok?
@TowerTone
LOL!
Great comeback!
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”grin” style=”border:0;” />
I’m sure you’ve heard that a few times in your life too
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
How many posts to go for a 9th page?
Page 9 – NOW – RIGHT NOW !!!
OK, this is the one. Page 9 – NOWWWWWW !!!
SON-OF-A-….. !!!
Maybe this’ll do it!
Are you guys still here? Hanging around making pointless posts, just to try and make page 9?
That’s pathetic. Really pathetic!
I would never do that. Never!
I think I have it figured out. MDN are making page 8 longer after each post, just to thwart us.
Not that it matters, of course.
I mean, I have a life.
OK, I give up.
So so I.
Or to put it another way, so do I.
I think it’s something to do with a glitch in the matrix. If we get to page 9 the world will end!
And so ends another perfect storm.
It takes talent to be successful in every genre. It also takes a miracle to convince someone to believe your point-of-view in the comments section of a website, so why even try?
I myself have more eclectic tastes in music; like Mindless Self Indulgence and Electric Six.
berrytree
Okay.
Once again…
For old time’s sake…
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”wink” style=”border:0;” />
Louis Armstrong
Chuck Berry
Boney M
James Brown
Tracy Chapman *
Ray Charles *
Chic
Jimmy Cliff *
George Clinton/Parliament
Sam Cooke
Nat “King” Cole
John Coltrane
Commodores/Lionel Richie
Miles Davis
Bo Diddley *
“Fats” Domino
Earth, Wind and Fire
Etta James
Four Tops
Aretha Franklin *
Marvin Gaye
Al Green
Jimi Hendrix *
Janet Jackson
Michael Jackson
Stanley Jordan
B. B. King **
Gladys Knight & the Pips
Kool & the Gang
Lenny Kravitz *
Patti LaBelle
Living Color *
Bob Marley
Ziggy Marley
Thelonious Monk
Johnny Nash
Aaron Neville
Ojays
Billy Preston
Prince *
Otis Redding *
Seal *
Smokey Robinson
Sly & the Family Stone *
Staple Sisters *
Donna Summer
The Supremes
Tina Turner
The Temptations
Luther Vandross
Muddy Waters
Stevie Wonder *
War *
Forgot…
Little Richard
Philip Bailey – from Earth, Wind and Fire
Billy Ocean