“A cynic would describe Microsoft’s approach to the music player market as simple Apple envy. The iPod has dominant market share and is helping Apple increase its small share of the PC market. So I’ve got to imagine that many in the inner sanctums of Redmond are hot to introduce a slick phone from Microsoft,” Saul Hansell reports for The New York Times.
“I pressed J Allard on this when I met him earlier this week. Mr. Allard runs Microsoft’s Zune unit and handles some other development for its Entertainment and Devices division, which includes the Windows Mobile phone operating system,” Hansell reports. “Microsoft prefers to work with partners, he said, referring to cellphone makers, but he added that ‘we’ll never say never’ to making a Microsoft phone.”
Hansell reports comments made by J Allard which include:
• People are buying [iPhone] because it’s an Apple phone, not because it’s an iPod. It’s a lousy iPod. You can’t skip a track without looking at it. You can’t go running with the thing.
MacDailyNews Note: We’ve been running with the iPhone since June. Love the lap timer, too!
• Microsoft will add more features from the Zune into Windows Mobile phones.
MacDailyNews Take: Ooh, phones that squirt!
• We didn’t create the Zune because we were dying to get into the hardware business and take inventory risk. We felt we had to do it… [With Windows], we got to create most of the magic and take none of the financial risk. History isn’t going to repeat that with consumer goods.
MacDailyNews Take: You can say that again (last sentence)! Now, about that “magic,” it’s where, exactly?
Full article here.
What’s this guy smoking and where can I get some of it?
J Allard = tool
Yes, you can skip a track by simply pressing the microphone twice quickly.
The idiocy that comes from the MS Camp never stops amazing me. The iPhone is a great phone that happens to be a wonderful iPod. And for jogging, Apple has so graciously PARTNERED with Nike to give us a great, working solution.
MS let it go, you are has-beens and cannot compete on a level playing field.
Well, he should be worried about the facts that the Zune makes for a lousy iPod and Windows Mobile phones make for lousy iPhones…
Beyond all that corporate-speak, Microsoft is still its own worst enemy. It built itself into a locked room by flooding the tech industry with Windows – and is stuck with all the legacy baggage therein.
If it wanted to truly compete, it would ape Apple’s model for success.
If Microsoft had any spirit, they wouldn’t issue those statements, but prove their edge with products alone.
However, that might be a long wait…
What did you expect him to say..that the iPhone is a great iPod? M$ knows they have had their butt kicked. How much is the Zune being discounted in order to get them to sell?
Saddest of all for Microsuck is that Apple has sold twice as many iPhones as they have Zunes, and the Zune has been on the market for 8 months longer.
Wanna skip a track without looking? Double-click the button on your headphones – boom. Robert’s your father’s brother…
Well, which is it… magic or WOW?!
“Ooh, phones that squirt!”
I think that really should be a cue to MS to get into a market they haven’t considered: ketchup bottles.
Who really cares what these MS people think?
The guy is going ballmery™ (confluence of barmy and Ballmer).
If we can put the customer first, we prefer to do it with partners.
Parse that? Nonsense newspeak saying we ignore the customer. Apple? – puts customers first.
Allard is a symptom of the mind rot that’s pervasive in the management of the Evil Empire these days. Any normal person can take a glance at someone like him and figure out that he’s a poseur, but MS’s senior managment simply lacks the ability to do so.
Ballmer is the ultimate example of the Peter principle, and Allard is the proof.
-jcr
It’s basic psychology, really. If you know what your competition is saying in statements like these, you can actually garner a fair bit of the company’s overall opinion of itself as compared to you, and maybe get an inkling for what they’re planning to counter you with.
Microsoft feels threatened fairly easily, and this is manifested in the desire to dominate everything it touches.
And like Sun Zi said, “Know your enemy.”
Yeah, I hate when I read stuff that says you have to look at the screen to pause or skip.
One click: Pause
Two clicks: Skip
Click on the headphone mic that is.
If there isn’t a recession in ’08, it’ll be Apple’s most successful year by far.
Even with a recession, I believe they’re going to do well.
yours,
Gavron
i have an iPhone for the phone and internet, with the occasional music/video playback, because it’s a great phone and i’m looking forward to some neat additions from Apple
i have a 1 Gig iPod shuffle for working out at the gym, ’cause it’s small, light and rugged.
i have an 80 Gig iPod for music, playing longer videos/movies and file transfer, because that’s what i had before the other two devices and it’s an awesome iPod.
i think the iPhone’s a decent iPod. sure it would be nice to have more control without having to unlock it. but i certainly wouldn’t call it “lousy.” sounds like sour grapes from “we rebranded a Toshiba Gigabeat because we couldn’t innovate our way out of a paper bag” Microsoft.
I agree the iPhone is not the best iPod.
The current playlist is secondary to whole list of albums. Why would I be playing a blues playlist and turn the unit sideways to start see every album that I have on the iPhone.
As for running with the iPhone, it has no Nike+ support. You can’t skip to the next without double squeezing the ear buds, which doesn’t work well while running.
The iPhone is designed to be looked at during usage, while the iPod can be worked by feel.
The iPhone has duplicate buttons throughout the user interface. Example: The album view (the default during while playing) can be tapped just like the button in the upper right corner to switch from album to list view and back again.
But, I hope Apple improves the design with future updates.
“The iPhone is a lousy iPod!”… Well…
The Zune is a LOUSY Plays for Sure device. It doesn’t even play the same content.
You can’t run with an iPhone, but you could run with a zune? What a tool
J Allard has absolutely no credibility. The last I looked his Entertainment division at Microsoft has lost billions of dollars over the last few years.
@Anonymous
Exactly how do you press the microphone twice?
“Yes, you can skip a track by simply pressing the microphone twice quickly.”
Are you referring to the “Home” button? That only brings up the mini player controls. From there you can skip a track if that is what you mean.
@Anonymous
Okay, okay. So you explained it later on (twice). I’ll read more next time.
“Wanna skip a track without looking? Double-click the button on your headphones – boom. Robert’s your father’s brother…”
and
“Click on the headphone mic that is.”
“You can say that again (last sentence)! Now, about that “magic,” it’s where, exactly?”
You plant a brown Zune, (try to stop it squirting first), then wait for the beanstalk to grow up to ‘Never Never Land”.
If MS entered the market with a Zune Phone the Windows Mobile makers would pack up and disappear overnight. Plus their attempted monopolising of the music and phone markets as they have with the OS, Server & Office markets would get them back into regulatory trouble.
It is MS’s monopoly of the Server & Office through lack of interplay with alternative clients and server apps that stops other players into these markets. This is what over-protective governments should be looking into.
Bob’s your uncle. It’s Robert’s nickname.
I’ve always though J Allard was a buffoon, but in all fairness, if you follow the link and read the article, he was actually being pretty complimentary to the Apple and the iPhone. I expected much different.
Windows is a lousy OS
PowerPoint is a lousy presentation program
Windows Media Player is a lousy media player
Zune is a lousy portable media player
XBox is a lousy money making machine
Surface is a lousy use for $10,000
Chairs have a lousy chance in Unky Fester’s office
You Potential. Our Passsion is a lousy theme
J is a lousy name . . . isn’t that the name of one of the judges on American’s Next top Model???
The Zune is simply a brown turd, and these imbeciles making it are examples of incompetent morons. They have, are, and continue to fail.
“Microsoft prefers to work with partners, he said, referring to cellphone makers, but he added that ‘we’ll never say never’ to making a Microsoft phone.”
=
“As everyone knows we’re vicious backstabbing bastards, and just like we betrayed our ‘Plays for Sure’ music <strike> suckers</strike> partners, we’ll have no qualms about doing the same to the Windows Mobile cellphone makers if we feel like we might be able to make some extra bucks.”
Sounds like someone has been looking for faults with his iPhone………
Allard, don’t let Ballmer know you have one
Zune unit zappa!
Okay, that was dumb, but anyhow…
What a tool! Obviously under orders by Gates/Ballmer to use their standard tactic… outright lies. I mean seriously, does anyone REALLY think Allard doesn’t know that the iPhone can skip a song by pressing the mic button twice?
Widows: It magically frustrating. Boy after two days restoring our Windows XP workstation, I sure could have used some magic. Sure is magical when Service Pack 2 crashes mid installation, now that is what I call magical.
Geeeez.. just like Ballmer stating on a C/Net interview that no iPods have WiFi in them, or Gates with his everyday Mac comment. ahaha… yeah typical from MS.
It is funny that he refers to something that doesn’t exist (magic) to promote something that doesn’t exist (products that Microsoft makes that people actually want). Note: geeks are not considered people for the sake of this argument.
I don’t know where my comments fit in, but here goes.
Of all the websites I look at on my iPhone, MDN is the one and only one I can count on to not load reliably while on EDGE. I find this ironic and frustrating, as I have been a regular reader of the site for quite a few years now.
MDN, fix this problem. Thanks.
As for the Z*ne, have yet to see one in the wild.
Go easy on Allard. The poor guy wakes up every morning to this:
“Mr. Allard runs Microsoft’s Zune unit and handles some other development for its Entertainment and Devices division, which includes the Windows Mobile phone operating system.”
A waking nightmare!!!!!!
I like my iPhone as an iPod better than my 3G iPod. It does exactly what I need it to do without hacking it. Great Job(s) Apple.
J Allard forgets to mention the fact that the 8 people who bought a Zune so far all started running. As fast as they could.
And Clippy does one poor ass job of paper clipping.
“As for the Z*ne, have yet to see one in the wild.”
That could be brown blindness. You might want to get that checked.
just testing…
I’ve seen exactly one Z*ne. And he returned it to BestBuy the next day. Ouch
I don’t believe for a second that Allard didn’t know you could skip songs by pressing the button on the earbuds microphone..
You know he got an iPhone the day it came out to study and disect it’s features so that they could copy them for a future ZunePhone.
Furthermore, why would he think that you can’t run with the iPhone? It’s flash memory is much more suitable for running than the HD based Zune.
This guy is a schmoe.
Wow, you guys left a lot out of the quote to make it sounds worse than it is. Here’s the full one:
“People are buying it because it’s an Apple phone, not because it’s an iPod. It’s a lousy iPod. You can’t skip a track without looking at it. You can’t go running with the thing. It is the first consumer product that has done browsing [on a cellphone] extremely well.
[The success of the iPhone] is the hangover from their relentless pursuit of building beautiful products for 25 years. That is their brand. [Consumers are saying that] Steve [Jobs] and the guys in Cupertino build beautiful products that are simple and they integrate nicely with my life. My phone is hard to use and it’s ugly, so I’ll try theirs.”
So, yes, he’s right on (in my opinion). The iPhone IS a lousy iPod, unfortunately. I CAN’T go running with it or easily change the volume without looking at it. However, as he says, Apple’s the first company to get browsing on a phone perfect and the “guys in Cupertino” DOES build beautiful products.
Stop taking bits of the quotes and removing it from context just to stir an argument!
I’ve been running more with my iPhone than with my Nike+ nano. I carry my phone with me anyway, so why not have it be an iPod? One less device to carry now.
And I love being able to control volume/track via the headset. I couldn’t do that with my nano — I had to keep the nano’s controls locked because the controls would rub in my pocket and change things. That meant needing to pause or skip a track was a real pain — have to fish the thing out of my pocket, unlock it, and fiddle with the controls. With my iPhone, the controls I need are right on my headset! The iPhone is a BETTER iPod.
I do wish Apple adds support for Stereo Bluetooth support. Then you also get play/pause/next/prev as well as answer the phone all at once, without needing a cable to the iPhone [or iPod Touch if you ignore the answer phone part]. It sucks to need an external bluetooth adapter to get functionality that should be included [particularly since it’s software-only].
Why is Anonymous?
It is paradoxical that I, Anonymous, can say wise things as often as I proclaim jackassian nuggets of thought upon MDN.
I, Anonymous, encompass a collective of thought.
Bow!
So… the first month has come around and I have to pay my ATandT iPhone bill. What an eye-opener American Telecoms companies are! Or do I mean dinosaurs? Whatever…
I should note at the outset that I elected to join the $59.99 plan… that was all I needed, right? Right.
My first bill comes to $179.66. Yowsa!! Okaay…!
Here’s the breakdown:
First you’ll pay the current month AND the next month upfront.
$39.99 plus
$39.99
Then: Data charge – $20 plus
$20 for next month
Then:
Activation Fee – $36.00
County Gross Receipts Charge – $3.24
Federal Universal Service Charge – $3.40
MTA Telecom Surcharge – $0.99
State Telecommunication Excise Surcharge – $4.10
oh, yeah, mustn’t forget the:
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge – $0.86
State Sales Tax – $6.42
City Sales Tax – $7.17
Local Wireless 911 Surcharge – $0.30
New York State Fee – $1.20
Grand Total: $179.66 for a $59.99 plan.
Nice.
“Chairs have a lousy chance in Unky Fester’s office”
Fell out of my chair laughing when I read that!
— dom
If the iPhone is a lousy iPod, what is the Zune?
Microsoft will win! They always do. Just let them get a couple more years away from their justice department fiasco and they’ll implement the same strategy that worked for them before:
OEM
$99 Microsoft Vista
$99 Microsoft Vista + Office
$99 Microsoft Vista + Office + Zune
Zunephone? Why would anyone wanna have a “crap-colored” phone?
Hmm….no Linux or open-source trolls for today. good
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@HueyLong –
County Gross Receipts Charge – $3.24
Federal Universal Service Charge – $3.40
MTA Telecom Surcharge – $0.99
State Telecommunication Excise Surcharge – $4.10
oh, yeah, mustn’t forget the:
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge – $0.86
State Sales Tax – $6.42
City Sales Tax – $7.17
Local Wireless 911 Surcharge – $0.30
New York State Fee – $1.20
Are all of these items taxes????
Can you give a brief brake down of what they all mean?
All those are taxes–if you have problem with it, vote for politicians that will cut taxes.
MW: “freedom”–as in, too many taxes chipping away at our freedom!
People are buying [Zune] because it’s a Microsoft effort, not because it’s a music player. It’s a lousy music player.
Whoa … steady on cupcake. I can’t vote for your politicians, as I live down under, I was just interested in a brief n’ pithy account of that long list of parasites.
And Windows is a lousy cash register.
You know J Allard, the zune is a lousy ipod ….
But its great that not even MS’s ‘great visionary’ understands what makes a good and sought after product. Long may it continue and lets be honest people with the imagination of your typical IT clone aren’t really going to suddenly become inventive or indeed understand the consumer’s wishes.
Silly twat.
If you want to run get a Shuffle.
I have a zune player (i bought it back when i was a windows only user and was oblivious to how much better apple actually was) and i hate it. Well, i don’t hate it as such, because it is an okay mp3 player, and the video quality is good, and i liked the wide screen. But can you imagine my annoyance when it crashed? Only on Windows.
And not just once either, it’s crashed a couple of times since i’ve had it, the musics stuttered, and it just doesn’t match up to my friends iphone.
I made the very big mistake of assuming that Apple wouldn’t fix the problems i found with the ipod mini in their new products.
As for a Windows phone? Well, they made a zune didn’t they? I’ll bet they’ll make a zune-phone or something with wi-fi technology to boot. The fact that Apple have patented their multi touch flip screen technology has reassured me somewhat. Microsoft won’t have the chance to ruin it.
As for Apple pairing up with Nike, I was really surprised, as (correct me if i’m wrong) i didn’t see Apple to be the type of company who liked working with partners. It was a very smart move by Apple though.
Apples iphone is a better ipod, sure it’s allot of money, but it is literally life in your pocket.
(Oh, and the fact that i can use an ipod on both a PC and a Mac but i can’t use my zune on my imac is really annoying)
Let’s start a campaign to “bring back brown.”
I know a guy with the Zune…he had the runs.
Stop taking bits of the quotes and removing it from context just to stir an argument!
… let’s all welcome the new guy …
To be honest no one on this planet gives a damn about what some overpaid, cynical loser from Microsoft thinks or says about anything.
The people’s opinion who does matter are the people who go into the shops and buy the products.
And those people are voting by buying iPods and iPhones – that is the only thing that counts!
It’s upto Microsoft to make better products than Apple, but unless the company totally changes its culture, attitude to business and customers drestically this will never ever happen.
Microsoft isnt Apple or never will be and likewise Apple isnt Microsoft. They are 2 companies that could not be more different even if they tried.
Consumers are not idiots these days, in the modern world you have tech savy 4 year olds. People know when something is crap, and if it is they dont buy it.
Simple rule of business, if you cant compete with your competition then go into another business direction.
Microsoft may have won the OS war (for what it’s worth), but there is no way they can win the consumer war from Apple. Apple has been building products for the consumer market for over 20 years, its Apples core market.
I feel sorry (NOT) for Microsoft, they just cannot hack the modern business world. They cant compete with Apple, Google, Sony, Nintendo, Nokia et all. They don’t make compelling products of exceptional quality or support the average products they do actually make very well either.
Lets face it, Microsoft with all the legacy baggage is in serious trouble and the future for them is looking pretty bleak.
Even with all their billions of dollars there will be a time when they cannot afford to propup their none selling product lines or less than acceptable OS.
They cannot innovate. They cannot bring products to market fast enough to compete either.
All this adds upto is a company with serious long term problems ahead. It’s a similar situations the human race has with global warming – the inevitable will happen, it’s just a case of when…
oh… and for the record, as a new iPhone owner…
THE IPHONE IS THE BEST MUSIC PLAYER IN THE WORLD!
I love my iPhone!!!
My Iphone has replaced my 40gb iPod.
As soon as I got it on launch day in the UK my wife has been after my old iPod.
Why did I choose an iPhone instead of one of the iPods? Quite simply because I had a 3 year old Sony Ericsson that I could never ever use for email or texting as the screen and the keys were too small. I was also after a new iPod too so it made sense that I got the one device on the market that does both jobs very well.
Since getting my IPhone I have learnt how to text within 2 days (something I could never learn on the Sony phone) and it is the best music player out there too!
The iPhone rocks – fantastic phone and a fantastic music player.
I would recommend it to anyone!!
Having owned both now, I can safely say…
If the iPhone is a terrible iPod, then a Windows Mobile Phone is an even worse Zune.
I love my iPhone as an iPod, because it actually works as an iPod, and a very good one at that (not to say I’ve gotten rid of my iPod, there are times when they are still better, but not many). But seriously, my WM Phone was a joke as a music player, video player, etc. But hey, it kept my contacts nicely!
Unfortunately for CrapAllard, what used to work (Ballardism) was labeling other companies as “niche” players, as putting out “crap” products. Basically trying to minimize other companies whose products are superior to your own.
Two things really mess up Ballardism.
1) When people wake up and become more informed about the other companies and their products. In Apple’s case, the 30% consumer Mac market share that’s growing, the iPod and iTunes store, the iPhone etc..
2) When (1) above occurs in mass quantities, it exposes your company and it’s inferior products at a much faster rate and makes people believe you less and less. For instance, slamming Mac OS X Leopard. Well, in virtually every review I’ve read, Leopard trounces Vista (as it should). Vista has been exposed for what it is. Leopard shines. People even forced Dell to go back to selling Windows XP machines.
Having said all that, when the iPhone/iPod Touch SDK (Software Developer’s Kit) becomes available in February, it will be “lights out” not just for Microsoft, but for most of the cell phone makers out there. Business Apps, Consumer Apps, and games are going to come in the hundreds and thousands.
As soon as main stream gaming companies release NATIVE Mac versions like EA’s Battlefield 3 slated for October next year, the last major floodgate to full consumer adoption will be breached. Look for Apple to make larger and larger strides in the business arena over the next few years. It always follows consumer adoption.
Cheers.
Ampar:
“just testing…”
Obviously, you can attempt to spoof a name. Or, you could try being yourself if it’s not still so incredibly painful. Burlap hoods must itch, huh?
I know it’s heresy to agree with someone from Microsoft, but the guy is not half wrong. It’s a pain scrubbing through audio files (there are at least three ways to change volume levels, but only one barely adequate way to scrub), the control buttons on the bottom seem big enough but I still have to tap them three times before they do anything, and Cover Flow always seems to launch itself whenever I don’t want it to.
But, it’s an iPod that receives phone calls so I still end up using it more than my normal iPods.
“. . . but the guy is not half wrong.”
I agree that it’s not the best iPod but for a 1st gen. device, it’s does a pretty good job of combining a phone, web device and video/audio player among a few other things. I expect rev. 1 to be even more amazing.
But remember, he’s required to call it “lousy” or possibly lose out on lucrative stock options. Or worse, get his butt filled repeatedly with painful chair splinters.
And cabbage is a lousy lettuce.
That’s Cole’s Law.
I just left the Mall of Georgia Apple Store
about 7pm…they have alot of computers in there to get your hands on, and I had to wait to even get to one…that place was hopp’in…and it is located in the worst traffic section of the mall upstairs.
It is only the beginning, folks.
Allard is a fool.
Allard probably wants to work for Apple. It really is Apple-Envy, though he was more complimentary to Apple than probably Bill would have wanted him to be….
Thank you for not being one of the kool-aid drinking circle jerks. Often the comments from MDN’s peanut gallery appear to be the rants of spoiled 12 year olds, not the knowledgeable and technologically proficient Mac users that I used to find here years ago.
Not only do they not read the entire articles before commenting, they declare products to be horrible without using them. I would bet that most of the people here that berate and condemn the Zune have never touched one, let alone used one.
I’ve used a Zune and liked it. There’s nothing wrong with that device except the service methodology behind it. If it worked with iTunes, I’d own one. The black one is a very attractive device.
If Microsoft offered software that just allowed users to manage the Zune with NON-DRM music, on a Mac, it would easily take a bite out of the iPod hegemony. The Zune coupled with music from Amazon’s store is extremely viable. I personally just don’t want to deal with “Microsoft Points.”
Now imagine they allowed it to work with the Mac and Linux. Imagine that they whole heartedly embraced LINUX with the Zune. That alone would breathe life into the stodgy Microsoft brand.
The Zune is not a “turd” as some moron put it above. If anything the Zune suffers from 3 things:
1. A Microsoft Marketing department that creates names like Zune and Squirt (please fire these people).
Not taking into account the Macintosh effect. The Macintosh Effect takes place when Mac users embrace a technology. We have the ability, notwithstanding our smaller numbers, to proselytize like nobody’s business. We get the word out and people listen.
3. Being anchored to Windows as if that would make people go out and buy that pig of an operating system. I use VISTA on a day to day basis, and the one thing I can say VISTA has done for me is make me really miss XP.
“You can’t go running with the thing (i.e. iPod). However, with Zune you get the runs.”
The only thing this article proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that Microsoft is scared to death of Apple. Tens of millions (wait, over 100 million?) iPods have been sold and are outselling everyone else for a reason. It’s simply the best thing on the market, way in front of the rest of the pack. And this FUD that “J” spreads is more than just about the iPod – it’s about the Mac as well. Vista is a certified failure and MS knows it. So the Redmond village idiots are freaking out.
Sorry, I’ve used the Zune, I’m 47 years old, technically proficient on both Mac and Windows, and I still say the Zune is a turd.
Haven’t seen anyone talk on a zune yet. (the word zune comes up as an error in spell check hint,hint)
testing 1 2 3
Valerie — hahaha, good one.
MW happens to be “ran”! haha.
Zune = Also Ran (or hardly ran).
Zune features in Mobile Phones?
cheese, i mean, geez…
OMG! I cannot believe it! A Microsoft employee saying their products are better!?!?!?! What comes next Pizza Hut employees claiming their product is better than Domino’s? The nerve of some people. Now it makes me wonder, do Ford and GM employees take such surprising stances against each others products.
Good thing MDN brought this to our attention. This article is as surprising as it is important.
Just my $0.02
True – the iPhone is not as good a music player as the dedicated iPods. That’s probably why Apple called it the iPHONE (and not, say, the “iPod+Phone”) and continues to sell and improve three whole lines of actual iPODs that are just made for playing audio and video.
But if J Allard thinks that he’s competing against an iPod that has some phone features tacked on, he’s already lost this war.