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why a Canadian citizen (Maher Arar) was illegally rendered by the US into the hands of the Syrian security services where he was systematically beaten and tortured for around twelve months
You see a problem with this..??
tortured for 12 months, what’s the problem?
Not like he was beheaded in the name of a false god or anything like that…
the “war” (IRAQ)-
Wolfowitz’s idea.
Trust me.
George Bush is awesome. Disagree with him on immigration. But otherwise we love him. Screw you libs.
gwb… fake businessman, fake cowboy, fake family man, fake compassion, fake conservative, fake Christian, fake President, fake wars-real consequences….. MW-hell, exactly.
ibookfast = fake person
I dare any liberal to lay out there ideal plan to stop terrorism and how they think people should be taxed and who should be eligible for free handouts from the government.
I meant “their” not there. Long day. I know the libs will jump all over that because they don’t have any way to really defend their positions.
Here’s my plan, Oscar:
I dare any liberal to lay out there ideal plan to stop terrorism
You mean like the way the Rescumlicans have totally eradicated the problem? They’re making it worse by arming the thugs who then turn those U.S.-financed guns on U.S. and other soldiers. Hell of a jeorb, Bushie!
and how they think people should be taxed
Stopping corporate welfare would be a great start.
and who should be eligible for free handouts from the government.
Everyone but you.
Rightards = not even as smart as fifth-graders.
There you go. A typical idiotic left wing response to a great post by Oscar. You libs have no plan or answer other than to tax away any reason to work hard and appease the terrorists and irrationally bash Republicans. It’s absolutely pathetic. Mac Yak you are the true definition of scum.
Rush Rocks the Haus!!!!
The truth is Rush and his right-wingers secretly hate America.
You couldn’t be more wrong Steve. In fact it is exactly the opposite. The libs are the ones that hate everything about the US and want to change into a communist nation. You people have lost it.
You couldn’t be more wrong, Trish. In fact it is exactly the opposite. The conservatives are the ones that hate everything about the US and want to change it into a fascist nation. You people have lost it.
“It” being the US Constitution.
Trish
More bullshit. It was Rumsfeld that shook Saddam’s hand and met with Osama bin Laden in the 1980s. Rethuglicans armed and gave the initial financing to the terrorists. They started this, and that’s how history is going to remember them: as idiotic opportunists whose Project for a New American Century caved in like a house of cards after six disastrous years and at a cost of billions of (currently off-the-book) dollars and thousands of (currently in-the-ground) lives.
Keep on defending the indefensible. You and the other right-trash douchebags are on the hook for ALL OF IT.
Mac Yak you idiot. That was a completely different era. At the time that was what we thought was best for the US. Now it’s a totally different situation. Or we understand it better. You had the Soviet Union back then creating all kinds of problems. Now they still do that but no where near like they used to. Your ridiculous posts make you look like the asshole that you are. Get back on your meds fast.
Thank you, right wing, for making me a Proud American. I feel content and well grounded when my country invades another because I believe in reactionary politics, where knee-jerk reactions always end in the best of ways. Thank you, right wing, for selling America a lie that if I believe in church, and god, and don’t abort my fetuses, I will be saved by Jesus. Thank you, right wing, for telling me that it is imperative that I shoot and own any gun I want even though most of the time those guns are being shot at me. Thank you, right wing, for selling out to corporations, so it makes sense that my world is polluted by deregulation. Thank you, right wing, for siding with credit card companies instead of the middle class. Thank you, right wing, for telling me that universal health care is evil, but because I don’t have health insurance it doesn’t matter how good/bad hospitals are, I still can’t go to them! Thank you, right wing, for making America a cold, hard, evil place where I have $100,000 in college loans but am working for $12 an hour!!! Thank you, right wing, for living in your ivory tower of wealth, and faith, and not really coming down to where the rest of America is really at and having an honest conversation with us.
And most of all, thank you Rush Limbaugh for blindly siding with anything conservative because it’s your schtick. We all have heard about your upbringing, the shame that you have reaped on your family, your failed relationships, and your drug use. Rush, like the right wing, you are not America. You are something evil.
Get out of my country.
You see a problem with this..??
tortured for 12 months, what’s the problem?
Not like he was beheaded in the name of a false god or anything like that…
Well, the problem with it was that he was incorrectly placed on the watchlist – a fact discovered by the Canadian government – and, as a result, innocent of any terrorist activity, without links to any terrorist groups or individuals and without knowledge of any information relating to terrorists or terrorism other than what he’d seen on the news.
So my main problem with his rendition is that it was illegal in and of itself, it delivered him – by CIA flight into Jordan and then by car into Damascus – into the hands of a regime that the US Government claims to be a sponsor of terror (spot the irony, or have you had that part of your brain removed), and it shows that – whilst the US Government maintains the lie that it does not engage in torture – it is not above ‘outsourcing’ torture to regimes that any reasonable administration would run across the street to avoid.
My other secondary problem is that – even if the government’s assertion about not being involved in or supporting torture were not so patently false – it is obvious from your statement and the statements of many others that there is a significant percentage of Republican supporters who have come to the conclusion that the practice of torture is an acceptable path for this country.
Once that opinion becomes broadly held – particularly in the supporters of one political party, you’re only a hop, skip and a jump (if that’s not too gay for you) from advocating torture for your political opponents or maybe even advocating their assassination – do we know any Republican polemicists/commentators who have advocated the murder of the opponents (judges, journalists, etc.) of the Republican party? Think hard now, if that’s still a possibility for you.
Why haven’t any libs laid out their plan of action yet?????? They obviously don’t have a clue about how to anything but bash Republicans. You people are sick!
From the “liberal hawk” book WITH ALL OUR MIGHT by Will Marshall – which proceeds from three premises:
First, defeating Islamist extremism is America’s top security imperative. Second, victory demands a new strategy that is both tough and smart. Third, progressives should stop reacting to President Bush and start leading on national security.
A sampling of ideas:
Support Muslim modernizers.
The United States has not launched a war against Islamist terrorism so much as joined a war already in progress, argues Reza Aslan. It is a civil war within Islam — or fitnah, as Muslims call it — a fight between orthodoxy and modernity. Americans must work to tip the balance in favor of the modernizers. We must start by avoiding polarizing “us vs. them” rhetoric. And we should view Muslim Americans as an untapped national resource to be pressed into service to make the case for freedom and democracy in the Muslim world.
Create a Grand Strategy for the Middle East.
Long a Cold War sideshow, the Middle East has become this century’s main arena of conflict – call for harmonizing America’s often contradictory Middle East policies in a new “grand strategy” that aims to foster a new stability in the region, based on the spread of liberal ideas, habits, and institutions.
Seed liberal democracy.
Political Islam has flourished in opposition to the corrupt, despotic regimes that pervade the Middle East. To pacify the region and promote its long-term prosperity – propose a Middle East version of the 1975 Helsinki Accords, which created a network of international institutions and nongovernmental organizations that helped to peacefully undermine Soviet and Eastern European communism.
Revive Muslim economies.
In addition to chronic misrule, the Muslim world faces a deepening economic crisis. From Morocco to Central Asia, populations have been exploding while trade has dwindled, unemployment has risen, and living standards have fallen. As it did during the Cold War, America should use trade to spur economic development and opportunity for people in the region.
Shape the global battlefield.
Jihadist violence is a transnational phenomenon, but the United States and its allies lack a global counterterrorism strategy. What’s needed is a new International Counterterrorism Agency that can help frontline countries strengthen their anti-terrorism capacity.
Prevent nuclear terrorism.
The single most frightening threat to our national security is the prospect of a nuclear weapon in the hands of terrorists. Nuclear terrorism is preventable if we insist on three simple rules: no loose nukes, no new nuclear fuel programs, and no new nuclear weapon states. We must make Russia’s unsecured nuclear weapons and materials as safe as the gold in Fort Knox. Second, we should use bigger carrots and sticks to prevent Iran from developing facilities for enriching uranium or reprocessing plutonium, and to hold North Korea to its pledge to shut down its fledgling weapons program.
Strike a grand bargain with Pakistan.
When it comes to fighting jihadism, it’s not yet clear whether Pakistan is part of the problem or part of the solution. To ensure that Pakistan becomes a full-fledged partner, America and its allies should offer it a major package of economic and military aid, coupled with a bilateral trade agreement. In return, President Musharraf ‘s government should give the United States an ironclad commitment to hunt down Osama bin Laden and his henchmen, return Pakistan to free elections and democracy, and suppress terrorist groups launching attacks on neighboring Kashmir.
End of Part 1
Part 2
Create a post-9/11 military.
America has the best military in the world for conventional warfare, but its forces were not designed for today’s unconventional challenges of transnational terrorism, post-conflict stabilization, counterinsurgency, and counter-proliferation. Propose a major military reorganization around these post-9/11 imperatives. Specifically, they recommend a new force structure that is geared toward three missions: preventing conflicts and humanitarian disasters; defeating enemies through sustained combat when prevention fails; and rebuilding civil order and basic infrastructure in failed states, as well as after disasters here at home.
Reconcile Democrats and the military.
There is a large cultural and political divide between Democrats and the military. We must bridge that gap for the good of the Democratic Party and our country, writes Operation Iraqi Freedom veteran Melissa Tryon. In addition to offering a coherent vision for national security, this progressive action plan includes forging relationships with veterans groups and other organizations that represent soldiers; encouraging military service by political liberals and elite college students; and addressing the day-to-day challenges of the military community in policy debates.
Don’t fear a strong Europe.
America needs a strong and globally engaged Europe, argues Ronald D. Asmus. Achieving our key foreign policy goals — from modernizing the Middle East to managing China’s rise to world power — will be nearly impossible without the help of our oldest and closest allies. We need to support Europe’s successful economic and political integration, make the European Union a focal point of U.S. diplomacy, and modernize NATO so it can operate effectively in the Middle East and beyond.
Reinvent the United Nations.
The United Nations faces a crisis of credibility and must be radically overhauled, writes Anne-Marie Slaughter. To reflect today’s security threats, the world body’s mission should be broadened to include not only protecting states from aggression, but also protecting the people within states from mass murder. Slaughter envisions a new division of labor in which the United Nations focuses on economic and social assistance to weak and failing states, while a reinvented NATO assumes the burden of collective security.
Put the economy on a wartime footing.
America’s strength and security ultimately derive not from military power, but from a strong economy and vital society. The Bush administration has ignored this basic strategic insight, says David J. Rothkopf. Security now demands that we restore fiscal sanity in Washington, reimpose budget discipline, roll back irresponsible wartime tax cuts, and invest in America’s future health and competitiveness.
Spur a post-oil economy.
Forget about an energy “Manhattan Project” or “Apollo moon shot.” What America needs now are concrete, near-term steps to break our dependence on oil. Jan Mazurek shows how a mandatory national cap on the greenhouse gas emissions that we produce by burning oil can be a policy lever that speeds diversification into homegrown biofuels and touches off a frenzy of innovation in the energy and clean technology markets.
Tap the patriotic spirit of the 9/11 generation.
For Americans under 30 years old, 9/11 was a formative experience. But they do not easily fit into conventional liberal-conservative, hawk-dove dichotomies, argue Rachel Kleinfeld and Matthew Spence. They are generally more patriotic, confident in the military, and supportive of free trade than any other age group. Yet they also distrust large corporations and media spin. Many of them are making a home in the Democratic Party as Truman Democrats. Leaders can appeal to them if they espouse a worldview that is rooted in the principles of progressive internationalism.
Courtesy of the DLC web site
source: http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=450004&subid=900020&contentid=253877
Jake>
Firstly, I don’t see how anything I’m saying particularly bashes Republicans – they are simple statements of fact which are proven either by reading the collected ‘thoughts’ of Republican commentators or the comments of those who post on this site.
Secondly, what is the point in saying anything about an alternate plan of action: how many of the forty-one recommendations in the 9/11 Commission’s (a report whose recommendations would be heeded according to the current occupant of the Whitehouse – sorry, I no longer feel it appropriate to refer to him as ‘The President’; it’s an insult to those who have held the post with more dignity and honor including, bizarrely, Richard M. Nixon) report are, as yet, unactioned?
Whilst we’re on the tack of listening to the counsel of others: how many recommendations of the Iraq Study Group have been actioned either in whole or in part?
This is now an administration that doesn’t even listen to people who are on the same side of the political fence, whilst the supporters, cheerleaders and water-carriers (including Rush L) have taken to abusing them by labelling them ‘surrender monkeys’ and saying that their comments make them “want to puke”.
How has the political debate becomes so debased that recommendations even from people like James Baker are treated with total and utter contempt, whilst the recommendations of the AEI (which, along with PNAC, got us into this mess in the first place) are given yet another chance with the so-called ‘surge’.
As a result, I’m not certain what value is gained from arguing that the war in Iraq is antithetical to the best interests of the United States and in recommending other courses of action which deliver more light on the actions of global terrorists than either a) flooding a sovereign nation with over 100,000 troops or b) illegally kidnapping people and exporting them to be tortured by people with whom we should hold at arms length.
If classic Republicans cannot gain any foothold in the ‘thinking’ of the current administration or in the minds of Republican supporters like yourself, what is the point in liberal-leaning people, who – as yourself – are patriots who are normally proud of their country, saying anything at all: You’re not seeing the damage that the current administration’s policies are doing and you’re certainly not listening to the arguments – I want to say something about three wise monkeys, but the wise bit is evading me.
However, let’s try and agree on one thing: when a man is given due process through the legal process and is duly found guilty by a jury of his peers, surely – in a nation of laws – the Chief Executive should not commute that man’s sentence even before the appeals process has been completed.
Why focus on this: because this country will not and cannot stand out as a bastion of truth and justice until we are willing to confront truth and deliver justice regardless of race, creed, color or social or political standing.
What the Chief Executive did earlier this week was an affront to the will of the court, an insult to the justice system and contempt of the will of the majority of the people. Unlike Ford’s pardon of Nixon – which at least had the veneer of attempting to rebuild the nation after the shame of Watergate – the commuting of Libby’s sentence (which amounts to a pardon in all but name, as it spares him from ever spending a day in a cell to contemplate the gravity of putting his party before his country) is a purely partisan act from an administration which has lost any concept of a moral compass.
For the sake of public confidence in the nation’s system of justice, laws must be seen to be upheld and those who break those laws must be seen to be punished no matter how fleeting that punishment might be: simply making a man like Libby pay over a fine which is likely to be an inconsequential proportion of his net worth and making them serve a period of probation fails to address the initial contempt shown in the offence or the cost of pursuing the case. It is a sham and anyone who doesn’t have their head stuck firmly in their ass should be able to see that.
Before I or any other ‘criminal-loving’ liberal can have a conversation with tough-talking conservative Republicans, show me an Executive Branch that is willing to uphold the rule of law and the system of values implicit therein – until then, your party and its supporters have no moral position from which to lecture anyone on democracy, justice, values (my magic word, ironically) or any other topic.
Steve and Spartacus—
Excellent posts. Thank you.
Wow, I had a thought that when I visited MDN, it would be about Apple. Now why would I ever think such a thing? Everyone here seems much more interested in politics. Here is a link for all of you:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=political+forums&spell=1
Douche Dimbulb and AT&T (American Treason & Treachery) are a perfect match.
One is complicit in illegal wiretapping and the other is a brain-dead cheerleader for fascist tyranny.
I can’t remember which is which.