“Norway’s consumer agency said Wednesday it was not satisfied with concessions Apple Computer Inc. offered to Scandinavian regulators in response to their claims that the iPod maker is violating contract and copyright laws,” Jaime Espantaleon reports for The Associated Press.
“Consumer agencies in Norway, Denmark and Sweden claimed in June that the iPod maker’s product usage restrictions go against Scandinavian laws. They contend that Apple’s system of making its market-leading iPod the only compatible portable player for iTunes downloads is illegal and tramples on consumer rights,” Espantaleon reports. “At the time, the Scandinavians said they were considering taking the Cupertino, Calif.-based company to court, possibly seeking an injunction banning iTunes from their markets.”
Espantaleon reports, “They received a 50-page response from Apple on Tuesday, but the company asked that segments of the transcript be treated as confidential.”
“‘This is not good enough,’ Bente Oeverli of the Norwegian consumer agency told The Associated Press, but added that ‘it seems we may reach an understanding on some points.’ Oeverli said the two sides still disagree on the crucial point – the ability to download music files to other players than iPod,” Espantaleon reports.
Espantaleon reports, “Apple said that limits posed by iTunes to the choice of players were not ‘unreasonable’ because ‘users can burn music to Compact Discs’ and then use these freely. ‘They have the freedom of choice and the mechanism does not violate competition laws,’ Apple’s letter also said.”
Full article here.
More, including Apple’s response letter in Norwegian, here: “Outside Your Area of Competence” is Apple’s Response to Norwegian Consumer Council
MacDailyNews Take: We must have missed the part where Apple held a gun to consumers’ heads and forced them to buy iPods and use iTunes and shop at the iTunes Music Store. You can use an iPod without using the iTunes Music Store. You can use the iTunes Music Store without using an iPod. So, how can either be anti-competitive?
Furthermore, the crux of the Scandinavians’ entire argument is fatally flawed. iPod is not the only compatible portable player for iTunes Music Store downloads. Motorola phones (sorry, Nokia – hey, maybe that’s the problem?) plus all the world’s millions of Mac and Windows notebooks are also compatible portable players for iTunes downloads. Sheesh, this one’s so easy, if it ever did go to trial, even Rob Enderle could win this case for Apple.
Related articles:
Norwegian council reviews Apple response to Nordic iTunes complaints – August 01, 2006
Can Scandinavians really force Apple to change iTunes Store terms? – June 16, 2006
Scandinavian triumvirate extends deadline to August 1 for Apple to reply to iTunes concerns – June 14, 2006
Norway gives Apple until June 21 to change iTunes Music Store terms – June 12, 2006
Norway: iTMS DRM under scrutiny, Microsoft DRM next – June 09, 2006
Consumer Council of Norway files a complaint regarding Apple iTunes Music Store’s terms of service – January 27, 2006
Gutted French ‘iTunes law’ ends up solving nothing – August 01, 2006
French anti-iTunes law deemed unconstitutional – July 31, 2006
Parts of French ‘iPod Law’ struck down as unconstitutional – July 28, 2006
French lawmakers give final approval to watered-down ‘iTunes law’ – June 30, 2006
Apple awaits final approval of French DRM Legislation – June 23, 2006
French lawmakers agree to water down DRM bill that would affect Apple’s iTunes – June 21, 2006
It’s no wonder EMI is supporting Apple in France – May 23, 2006
EMI backs Apple on French DRM law – May 23, 2006
BusinessWeek: still very possible that Apple will close iTunes Music Store in France – May 12, 2006
French copyright bill approved: Apple will not have to share FairPlay DRM details with competitors – May 11, 2006
French Senate vote could offer loophole for Apple’s iTunes – May 09, 2006
Vive l’iTunes! French ‘state-sponsored piracy’ DRM law gutted in committee – May 01, 2006
Force open Apple’s FairPlay? What has possessed the French this time? – April 27, 2006
French Trade Minister: Apple’s iTunes must play fair in French music market – April 14, 2006
JP Morgan: French DRM law will have limited impact on Apple Computer – March 28, 2006
Dvorak: What the French got right with proposed DRM law – March 28, 2006
Will Apple’s Steve Jobs bid France adieu? – March 22, 2006
Wired’s Kahney: Proposed French copyright protection law a good thing for consumers in the long run – March 22, 2006
Apple calls proposed French DRM law ‘state-sponsored piracy,’ predicts iPod sales increase – March 21, 2006
French National Assembly approves digital copyright bill; could affect Apple’s FairPlay DRM – March 21, 2006
I also missed the part where I care if Scandinavia and France have iTunes.
Bent Overly?
Isn’t the name of their country pronounced
Scandi-Naive-ia
Just asking….
how many Norwegian are there?
I think if it were up to the actual consumers in Scandinavia this stupid argument would have been over before it even started. The competitors just try to fcuk Apple and fcuk the consumers in the progress…
I say: Keep the iPod and iTunes as it is!
I cancelled my subscription to iTunes long ago. I dont like being told where and how I can listen to my music. MDN is an apple fanboy site.
So, John, just how much was your “subscription to iTunes” anyway?
Those guys spend 6 months in the dark. Maybe it’s that time of year up there.
MDN,
You are dealing with a socialist country. You don’t need to have someone hold a gun to someone’s head for them to get upset and call it illegal.
The Norwegian regime is of the hard left socialist variety. They hate America and its successful companies. Apple must not cave in. A pull out from Norway would be better, combined with a complaint to the appropriate agency against Norway and the legal blocking of imported Norwegian products in the U.S.
Screw Norway.
I like this site . . . Why can’t I subscribe to iTunes like John?
“‘This is not good enough,’ Bente Oeverli of the Norwegian consumer agency told The Associated Press, but added that ‘it seems we may reach an understanding on some points.’ Oeverli said the two sides still disagree on the crucial point – the ability to download music files to other players than iPod,” Espantaleon reports.
Surely, Mr Oeverli has the cart ever so slightly before the horse.
If he want’s other music players to be able to play content purchased from iTMS, the first step – which I always recommend as a good place to start – is to find portable music players that can play AAC format files. Then the next step would probably be to ensure that those players build in integration to iTunes (the software, not the store) as iTunes is responsible for managing the DRM.
Until Step One and Step Two are executed, Step Three (the ability to play FairPlay AAC files) is – in reality – a moot point.
So, all Mr. Oeverli has to do is convince the ever-dwindling roster of PMP manufacturers to embrace AAC – something they are loathe to do (possibly because their WMA license contracts with Microsoft actually forbid them to support both formats, which would explain why even Portable Media Players from people like iRiver were either ‘open’ supporting MPEG-4 and the like or ‘closed’ and supported WMV) – and then he has to get them to build integration into iTunes.
During a conversation with a representative of iRiver around two years ago, I was told that iRiver had decided not to build integration into iTunes because it would mean that they were identified with iTMS. In other words, this is a competitive marketplace and you can’t force Apple’s competitors to license even the AAC technology (which they would have to do first) if that’s not something which they feel is commercially attractive.
So maybe Mr. Oeverli needs to stop eating unfeasible quantities of herrings and get his priorities straight.
I think Norway should be more concerned about the killing of wales off its cost. Fix that first.
Apple has the least restrictive DRM outside of ILLEGAL file sharing.
For CD: You can rip a CD and listen to it anywhere. You can put your iTMS music on a CD so they are the same (-quality).
For Portable Devices: An iTMS track is the equivalent of a CD as noted above and therefore as open as a CD minus stuff like Sony’s piracy protection – so maybe it’s more open than some CDs.
For Computers: Only iTunes and the iPod work with both Mac and PCs.
The mere fact that you can create a CD after purchasing songs makes the iTMS as open as a CD. Think of the iTMS as download-ready CDs with the benefit of not having to buy 10 tracks that suck.
“…plus all the world’s millions of Mac and Windows notebooks are also compatible portable players for iTunes downloads.”
Comparing an iPod to a portable computer as ‘compatible portable players for iTunes downloads’ (as if they were truly similar)is a bit of a stretch, don’t you think.
I don’t think Apple should be forced to open up their technology if they don’t want to, but MDN’s comparison is bizzare.
The first paragraph of you take is spot on, however.
Lay off the Norway/Scandinavia bashing. They’re entitled to make these decisions for themselves.
Realize that there is no such thing as an unfettered, free marketplace. Nowhere in the world. Given that, individual countries are entitled to set the rules for commerce within their borders. The Scandinavian countries apparently wish to draw a line that’s different from the one in the US. They can do that, to the benefit or detriment of their consumers. Apple, in turn, can decide if they want to do business there under those rules. Apple can choose to do business there or not, but if they choose to stay it will be under Scandinavian rules.
If Scandinavian money is important enough to Apple they’ll find a way to stay. If not, they’ll leave. The only true loser will be the Scandinavian consumer, as there’s no way Apple will open their music ecosystem at the behest of three smallish countries.
It’s like making a law to outlaw IKEA for building the furnature and then being the only place to buy it. I don’t really see the difference. iTunes isn’t stopping Norwegians from purchasing music. They have plenty of choice of where to buy. Popularity doesn’t make for monopoly abuse.
It’s about Nokia and Eriksson…period!
You think it’s just pure happenstance that those two cell phone makers are locked out of The iTunes Music Store AND both are Scandanavian (please no Denmark squibbles) AND this “law” being defended is Scandanavian?
> IKEA for building the furnature >
Gotta get me some of that furnature for my katchen.
The Norwegian regime is of the hard left socialist variety. They hate America and its successful companies. Apple must not cave in. A pull out from Norway would be better, combined with a complaint to the appropriate agency against Norway and the legal blocking of imported Norwegian products in the U.S.
Wow, you’re deluded.
I would imagine that the Norwegian people probably couldn’t give a a tinker’s cuss about the USA and its successful companies. Norway currently operates a massive oil & gas fuelled trade surplus, which allows the country to operate a comprehensive social security policy and probably the most well-funded health service in the Western world yielding an average life expectancy of 79.54 years compared to 77.85 years in the US. The percentage of the population (a mere 4.6 million people) living below the poverty line is so low as to statistically insignificant, as opposed to 12% of the US according to figures published by the CIA.
US public debt runs at around 60% of GDP whereas Norwegian debt runs at 50%, so it’s questionable which country has the more ‘tax & spend’ government.
Norway exports around 3 million barrels of oil per day and also exports around 50 billion cubic metres of gas, leading to a budget surplus which has been sensibly invested and is now worth more than $150 billion (or around $40,000 for each member of the population).
The effect of a US embargo on Norwegian products would be quite frankly minimal: the USA is a market for around 6.9% of Norwegian exports (around $7.5 billion) which is less than their trade with the Netherlands, France, Germany or the UK whilst the USA accounts for around 4.7% of Norwegian imports (or around $2.7 billion).
If you want to stop selling military hardware to Norway, that’s probably fine – they’ll just go and buy Typhoons from Eurofighter or Grippens from Saab. Seems a reasonable over-reaction because they find Apple’s terms and conditions irksome.
Those guys have been eating too much whale….
You can use an iPod without using the iTunes Music Store. You can use the iTunes Music Store without using an iPod. So, how can either be anti-competitive? Burn a CD then upload it to another music player if your dumb enough to buy anything other than an iPod. I see nothing that violates anyones rights. What I do see is DRM makes it more difficult if you want to use another player other than the iPod. But it doesn’t block anyone from using another player or another service so what has Apple done wrong? Nothing! Blame the record industry if DRM is bothering you because they require it otherwise Apple couldn’t sell there music online. Apple is not to blame for DRM the record industry is.
Yes, why do you give a crap if you are not from one of the Scandinavian countries? Please shut up and stop your bloody whining. Scandinavian countries (and France for that matter) are entitled to their own laws and to make companies that do business in these countries to follow those laws. You are entitled to not like those laws, but please shut the fuck up about it if you’re not from one of the countries in question.
@Jeff:
Yes, and maybe the U.S should stop invading other countries and killing innocent people for the fun of it?
Seems like some of you like to bash Norway for hunting a few whales. What´s that got to do with this?
Do you Americans like that people commenting Americas war on terror when you are debating Apple related stuff? Or that Americans tend to be very fat?
Besides, I really can´t see the difference between whale-beef and the beef you eat tons of at Mc Donalds. And Norway is actually a very USA-friendly country, with a long history of friendship with America.
But of course, if Norway even QUESTIONS a big american company, that makes us all idiots..
(And, Nokia and Ericcson are from Sweden and Finland, not Norway. Do you care about Canadian companies? Thought not…)
I sure hope the Norwegian Telco that sells music for Eriksson and Nokia phones is also able to sell iPod compatible music because Norwegian iPod owners will soon be looking for another store.
Let’s see how fast the Norwegian Consumer Agency takes the Government Telco to court.
Please excuse my fellow American idiots, like Cubert and Linux Guy, for bashing such a wonderful country as Norway. You must understand Americans live in a very deluded, mythologized state, indoctrinated into this “America Number One!” mentality from a very young age. Think of us as the rude version of Islamic militant fanatics: instead of having the decency of killing ourselves for our deeply held beliefs, we send our children overseas to blow everyone else up for whatever faddish fervor is in vogue. Remember the average mental age of an American is the equivalent of a spoiled 3 year old boy.
I want to be able to play Nintendo DS games on a psp. I want to be able to play XBox games on a playstation. They don’t seem to have a problem with that.
Ah, the Norwegian way. Sex on stage for all the kids to see. They must be enjoying the minimal sunlight and fossil fuel revenues:
http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/english/article250240.ece
Yes, you have to subscribe to itunes (sign up and give card details) if you want to buy anything. Unless you get the gift certiicates….
iTunes sucks. Its about time there was a proper store with no country or other restrictions that sold music in a format that actually sounded OK on a proper hi-fi, not some kiddy mp3 player.
To borrow from Tom Lehrer, a great American:
Fortunately, in times of crisis like this, America always has its number one instrument of diplomacy to fall back on.
http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/marines.htm
@ Fanatic Realist
“Surely, Mr Oeverli has the cart ever so slightly before the horse”
That would be *Ms* Øverli.
John, I don’t have an iPod. I use iTunes to store my CD collection, organise it into ‘mood’ folders and pipe it to my music system. It’s free, it works, I can burn mixes for my car, no suscription needed. I have yet to find an alternative that will work on my Macs at home and the PC’s (soon to be replaced with Macs) in my office, perhaps you can suggest one kiddo.
A wonderful country does not kill whales. A stupid country does that. Japan is another stupid country.
More importantly, iTunes Music Store has MORE COWBELL!
Check out the free download from the Gossip.
P.S. Long time huge Tom Lehrer fan.
“Spring is here, a-suh-puh-ring is here.
Life is skittles and life is beer.
I think the loveliest time of the year is the spring.
I do, don’t you? ‘Course you do.
But there’s one thing that makes spring complete for me,
And makes every Sunday a treat for me.
All the world seems in tune
On a spring afternoon,
When we’re poisoning pigeons in the park.
Every Sunday you’ll see
My sweetheart and me,
As we poison the pigeons in the park.
When they see us coming, the birdies all try an’ hide,
But they still go for peanuts when coated with cyanide.
The sun’s shining bright,
Everything seems all right,
When we’re poisoning pigeons in the park.
We’ve gained notoriety,
And caused much anxiety
In the Audubon Society
With our games.
They call it impiety
And lack of propriety,
And quite a variety
Of unpleasant names.
But it’s not against any religion
To want to dispose of a pigeon.
So if Sunday you’re free,
Why don’t you come with me,
And we’ll poison the pigeons in the park.
And maybe we’ll do
In a squirrel* or two,
While we’re poisoning pigeons in the park.
We’ll murder them all amid laughter and merriment,
Except for the few we take home to experiment.
My pulse will be quickenin’
With each drop of strych’nine
We feed to a pigeon.
(It just takes a smidgin!)
To poison a pigeon in the park.”
J go suck whale blubber
F’in’ Commies!
Steinar…
I stand corrected – but apart from getting the name and the gender wrong, I think my basic points are valid.
Yes Fanatic, and I thank you. One can always do without some of the bashing. Americans know that, don’t they?
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I disagree with most everything the Scandinavians want except one:
Apple says it has the right to change the terms of sale AFTER you have downloaded a song and paid for it.
That’s kind of ridiculous. The Scandinavians are right in wanting to get rid of that aspect of the iTunes.
Why doesn’t Apple just bill iTunes in Norway as selling music to play on Macs and PCs? They could describe the service as selling songs that are playable on any OS X or Windows computers and deemphasize the portable thing altogether – just to get around the legal mumbo jumbo.
You have all said it so well. I have nothing to add. I just wanted to be part of this thread. One thing: the Scandinavian people I’ve met have been wonderful. There is, however, a poison that incidiously creeps in when you are indoctinated into believing that if someone has something, by rights you should have it too. It slowly erodes the idea of personal effort bringing personal rewards. The governments regularly use their power in these countries to exercise social engineering. Examples: Denmark wants its citizens to drive cars less, so it levies a tax almost equivalent to the car’s purchase price. To pay for some necessary program that benefits the populace? No. The tax is simply meant to make it damn hard for the average Dane to buy a car. Sweden wants its citizens to drink less so it taxes the hell out of booze. Of course we do it here too, to a slightly less extent. But it is wrong everywhere to use the power of the tax revenue collectors to engineer individual behavior.
My hat goes off to all countries that try to outlaw DRM. I wish our congressmen and congresswomen looked at for its citizens like that. But noooo, our representatives receive too many incentives from the RIAA and the MPAA.
I don’t buy from iTunes because I refuse to pay for something with DRM. Sure, iTMS is the best online store. And the iPod is the best portable music player.
I don’t need or want DRM. It isn’t preventing me from pirating music. Because I don’t. Even if I could purchase my songs from iTunes without DRM. If I didn’t want to pay for my music, the DRM wouldn’t do a damn thing to prevent me from downloading it illegally. So why have it at all?
And why does everyone always bring up the ability to burn CD’s? Guess what, there’s DRM in the videos and tv shows too. And you can’t burn DVD’s from them. So how is the DRM not restrictive there?
DRM is bad. Even Apple’s.
Ignore John. He probably only listens to old Donny Osmond albums on his LP and never actually used itunes.
The iTunes Music store is not a commodity to be controlled. There are so many sources of the music that forcing Apple to “open up” is unrealistic.
Perhaps someone in the Norwegian government purchased another brand of player and is cranky they can’t download from the Music Store.
I say, Apple send him an iPod and and a free subscription (maybe John’s old “subscription”) and the whole demand will go away.
John
You don’t “subscribe” to iTunes, but you are required to “register” with the iTunes Music Store. Two very different things.
And I don’t want to “subscribe” to McDonalds either. They make me use my atm every time I go get a hamburger. And the cleaners, they make me subscribe when I go get a shirt cleaned.
But Urge, and Rhapsody.. they don’t make me subscribe do they?
(crickets…….)
Nokia is not a Scandinavian company it is from Finland ie Fennoskandian Company.
Fennoskandia=Scandinavian peninsula + Finland + Karelia + Kola Peninsula.
Scandinavia=Norway +Sweden ie Scandinavian peninsula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Peninsula
Nokia is not a Scandinavian company it is from Finland ie Fennoskandian Company.
Fennoskandia=Scandinavian peninsula + Finland + Karelia + Kola Peninsula.
Scandinavia=Norway +Sweden ie Scandinavian peninsula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Peninsula
Why aren’t the Governments of the world making legislation so that you can use any cellular phone with any service provider that you want? Whats the difference?
It would be interesting to see what Sweden make of Zune when it’s released, seeing as it’s based on the same business model as iTMS.
I guarantee that they will let it through without question – proof that all this is to do with lobbying (paying off) of key people by Microsoft, in the same way they did with Apple Corps.
Something stinks here and I smell the faint whiff of Redmond.
Reading the various documents available in Norwegian makes it abundantly clear that what we are seeing is an attack specifically directed against Apple, for the purpose of helping Microsoft by damaging Apple. The representatives of the Consumer Council obviously have an inadequate understanding of Norwegian law, and even less of an understanding of the impact of European law on allowable Norwegian practices. The arguments against Apple are strained beyond the breaking point. There obviously is no concern for the Norwegian consumer, nor for Norwegian law, nor for European law. There is a major concern for serving the pompous, self-centered incompetence of some Consumer Council employees. They are setting themselves up for major embarrassment, very likely in Norwegian courts, and definitely in a European court. The whole affair has a strong odor of a prevalent pro-Microsoft cult that is bent on saving Norway from anything that is not Microsoft.
“outside the Council’s area of competence”
That about sums it up.
So long, Oslo, we hardly knew ya…
Hey One guy from Finland,
I doubt the “Fennoskandian” thing is going to catch on – no offense, I just wouldn’t get too obsessive about it.
Something is rotten in the state…
In 1998, the Los Angeles Times reported that Microsoft, during its antitrust trials, hired PR companies to flood newspapers with fake letters of support, bearing ordinary individuals’ names but actually written by Microsoft PR staff. Payments were funneled through Microsoft’s PR company so that the checks couldn’t be traced.
All it takes is for a PR company to place a letter here, a column there, a phone call to someone and bingo, they’ve got someone on their side. The ‘consumer agencies’ mentioned, probably don’t even realise that they are being coerced by Microsoft, PR is that sutble – trust me, I know, I work in marketing.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Microsoft didn’t have one of their own staff on the inside in one of these ‘consumer agencies’, who was probably recruited years ago, but works on behalf of Microsoft. That’s a little extreme, but I’ve seen it happen in the UK.
PR agencies routinely will try to get someone on the inside of a client’s competitors company, to eavesdrop, or in this case, to cause trouble for the competitor.
Microsoft have been doing this for years. Windows zombies really fall for it, day after day, after day, believing that their Windows OS is superior. They are all part of a huge PR scam that Microsoft operates at a very, very low level. Where do you think they are spending that 40 billion in cash? – it certainly hasn’t gone to Vista.
grok
Does not matter what you think about it.
Fennoskandia is a fact.
Finland is not a Scandinavian country. Period.
Nokia is not a Scandinavian company. Period.
grok
Does not matter what you think about it.
Fennoskandia is a fact.
Finland is not a Scandinavian country. Period.
Nokia is not a Scandinavian company. Period.
You missed the point, man – not trying to bring offense or go against fact – just trying to save you some annoyance…
My guess is that people outside of Fennoskandia will still refer to it as Scandinavia. Period.
Sweden + Norway + Finland + North Pole = FennoSantaScandinia…land.
Finland + Norway + Black Magic Woman = FennoCarlosSantania
“It’s a Norwegian Blue. Lovely plumage.”
wow…from Apple to laws in other countries to people talking about War to America bashing to terrorists…great thread people.
…no wonder the human race’s survival is questionable.
To Monty Python, gforce. Lighten up.
gagravar,
I wouldn’t be surprised by anything you’ve posted here.
I’m not one to believe in conspiracies (and I’m not saying that you are), but isn’t it funny that all this is really coming to a head just as MS is getting ready to roll out Zune?
No, I guess it isn’t funny after all.
Norway’s not dead, it’s just tired after a long squak.
Good Day. A rumor without a leg to stand on will get around some other way.
I am from Venezuela and learning to speak English, give please true I wrote the following sentence: “Find the most inexpensive and cheap flights and airline tickets at flight network, offering the best last minute deals.”
Thank 😎 Afrika.
How are you. Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
I am from Zealand and also am speaking English, give please true I wrote the following sentence: “Color fish disturbs a simpler box to have the small vitamins is through chitin type portions.”
Waiting for a reply :-D, Wells.