Dell plunged 15% to $18.72 in pre-market Inet trading after saying it expected fiscal second-quarter earnings of 21 to 23 cents a share, below the average analyst estimate compiled by Thomson First Call of 32 cents a share, due primarily to aggressive pricing in a slowing commercial market.
The Round Rock, Texas-based Dell now sees earnings of 21 to 23 cents a share for the July period on revenue of about $14 billion.
Current market values:
• Apple – $51,064,500,320
• Dell – $44,447,732,640
MacDailyNews Take: If Dell ceased to exist today – say Michael Dell sold the company and gave the money back to the shareholders – nobody outside the company would care. Another Windows box assembler would simply slide into place and the mediocrity would continue unabated.
Related MacDailyNews articles:
Survey shows big jump in consumer interest in buying Apple Mac; Dell takes steep slide – July 06, 2006
The Wired 40: Apple #2, Microsoft drops to #36, Dell falls off list – June 28, 2006
Dell laptop explodes into flames at Japanese conference – June 21, 2006
Time Magazine on Apple’s 13-inch MacBook: ‘Dell and HP should be very worried’ – June 07, 2006
The Channel Insider: Dell is no Apple – May 31, 2006
Will Dell’s retail computer stores work sans inventory? – May 30, 2006
Dell to open retail stores – May 22, 2006
Dell burned by selling machines at bargain-basement prices last quarter, pain may not be over – May 09, 2006
Dell warns 1Q earnings will miss mark; shares tumble – May 08, 2006
Apple passes Dell in market value – May 02, 2006
The Motley Fool: Apple ‘may be the next Dell’ – April 07, 2006
Dude, you got a Dell? What are you, stupid? Only Apple Macs run both Mac OS X and Windows! – April 05, 2006
Payback? Wall Street didn’t like Apple passing Dell in market value – February 09, 2006
Apple Mac is #1 in European education market, pushes Dell down into second place – February 03, 2006
BusinessWeek: How can Apple be worth more than Dell? – January 20, 2006
Steve Jobs emails Apple team: Michael Dell not the best prognosticator, Apple worth more than Dell – January 16, 2006
Apple now worth more than Dell – January 13, 2006
Apple primed to pass Dell in market value – January 12, 2006
Corporate IT buyers fuming that Apple has Intel Core Duo Macs shipping while Dell and HP wait – January 12, 2006
Financial Times: Dell and Microsoft can never hope to attain Apple’s Mac aura – January 10, 2006
Struggling Dell has lost its mojo while Apple shows rapid growth – November 07, 2005
Apple growing faster with more innovative products, better support than ‘one-trick pony’ Dell – November 01, 2005
IDC: Apple shows rapid growth, holds 4.3% U.S. market share on 48% growth – October 17, 2005
Michael Dell say’s he’d be happy to sell Apple’s Mac OS X if Steve Jobs decides to license – June 16, 2005
Why buy a Dell when Apple ‘Macintel’ computers will run both Mac OS X and Windows? – June 08, 2005
Apple Macs are less expensive than Dell PCs – April 25, 2005
Dell CEO: Apple can’t just have one product and then say they’re the innovative leader of the world – February 22, 2005
BusinessWeek: Rather than dismissing Apple products as fads, Dell should try starting a few – January 31, 2005
Dismissive Dell CEO not impressed with Apple Mac mini, calls iPod a ‘one-product wonder’ and a ‘fad’ – January 17, 2005
Michael Dell owes Apple an apology; Apple up 176 percent vs. Dell’s 13 percent in past 12 months – January 15, 2005
Whoa!
Apple has it’s second best quarter and the next day Dell announces that they won’t meet their predections.
What’s going on… I’ll tell you. People are buying more Macs.
I guess there is a price to pay for endless coupons and deep discounts.
Return remaining money to shareholders.
And I just send a message to MDN about market caps. Guess it’s been noticed by more than just me.
Good-bye Dell.
Oh that’s terible & real, real BAD news, as it means Apple stock will drop again & take the fall…
Dell has lost it’s shine perhaps, but they still command a whopping 30% market share.
What Apple is doing is stealing Dell’s thunder.
If Apple started selling Mac’s with the option of Mac OS X or Windows, or both. They could do some serious damage to Dell with Apple’s numerous high profile stores.
Apple store employees are actively selling MacTels to customers with the intention they go home and install Windows.
After all they are salespeople and salespeople work on commission.
You people are taking Microsoft’s immense power and market position far too lightly.
Dell is firmly entrenched with Microsoft, and as such will rebound quickly. It will be Apple’s stock that will be in the toilet just as soon as Microsoft releases an ultra-stable, secure Vista and a highly anticipated, iPod killing Zune…
… which will be never…
Rest in pieces, Dull and Microshaft.
Dell plays in the razor-thin-margin market while Apple stays out of the garbage dump. Dell is under price pressure from the Chinese (Lenovo, etc) in the commodity market and from Apple at the high end. They are literally between a rock and a hard place.
The next time some pundit runs their mouth about why Apple should play in the throw away end of the market point them to this– you cannot make money at that end.
Yes it is very unfortunate that the average – read dumb – Windows user won’t or is so clueless to consider alternatives to the mediocre world of Windows and switch to either Linux or Mac.
Just today in a local newspaper they are running a poll on the dumbest error messages their computers display in front of them.
Check it out yourself here:
http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=17726&in_page_id=2&expand=true#StartComments
Dell and Microsoft have seen better days and I really don’t see any future for either company, at least in doing what they have been doing. As a Windows box assembler, Dell is nothing special. Dell machines fail ROUTINELY where I work. Their monitors are nice, though, and I’ve heard many a Machead speak positively of them. If I was Dell, I’d branch out into something else besides computers while I was still solvent. Leave the low end to folks like Tiger and leave the high-to-middle ground with Apple.
To Mr. Gorilla, please do not put apostrophes where they’ don’t belong.
Its denotes possession, It’s means it is. Gorillas may not be able to remember that, but cows do and it offends us to have to see errors repeated until they become acceptable.
Next, the plural is indicated by adding an s without a preceding apostrophe. The plural of Mac is Macs.
This message in the interest of the whole herd, not just a pride of gorillas.
Hortense prays that the gorillas do not reoffend.
The truly funny part about this is that Dell is about to open retail stores…but you won’t be able to actually BUY the product and take it home!!!
You can SEE it and enjoy all the wonderful windowsness in a kind of poorly guided demo…then PAY…and wait for your machine to arrive in a brown truck.
I recall some years ago that Sears tried this. They called them Catalog Stores. You’d go in, look at a refrigerator, and then a week or two later it would show up. How many Sears Catalog stores do you suppose are still out there? None. They had all closed by 1993. Just like the Mail Order catalog Dell’s model doesn’t account for the human need to interact and get assistance when you need it…in person….and BUY it and take it home immediately…
It HAS worked of course to discount the crap out of what they sell, offering the lowest of the low, only to upsell when they get you on the site or the phone. Dell’s 30% market share is sustained only by constant huge marketing dollars. Don’t be surprised to see HP make a major push with the arrival of Vista and take some more of Dell’s market share.
Apple will gain too…likely 1% possibly more…which of course translates to close to a billion dollars.
Correction: Apple store employees do not work on commission.
” If Dell ceased to exist today – say Michael Dell sold the company and gave the money back to the shareholders – nobody outside the company would care. Another Windows box assembler would simply slide into place and the mediocrity would continue unabated.”
The same could be said about Apple or any other PC maker, The others would take their share and life would go on.
And Apple’s not so sufficiently different that anyone would mourn the passing of their PC business other than a few Mac afficionados and the antitrust guys at Microsoft (Who need some competitor, even one with only 2% worldwide share, to point to as a “Competitor” to Windows.)
Where is the companion story about the Microsoft $40 billion share buyback? That is a bigger story than Dell, because it is PROOF that MS has given up on being a growth company.
MS actually IS giving the money back to the shareholders.
Even more telling is that the stock price barely budged on the announcement, which is NOT what you want to have happen when you announce a buyback.
Ah, schadenfreude! Dell drops like a lead balloon, while Apple rockets ahead. How sweet it is. It is all coming together folks. Steve made the smart choices, the goodies are in the pipeline and the vision is brilliant at 1 Infinite Loop.
A few more years of this and I’ll be financially independent and be able to buy multiple Macs on a whim. I am already thinking of writing parallel code for a collection of new Intel based Xserve boxes — just for fun.
I’ve done a lot of scientific and engineering modeling and simulation in my working life and like to play with that kind of stuff. Who knows, maybe in my old age — which is already here — I’ll even get a business out of it. Smile Apple folks. Just wait until the next quarters results make the current one look like a fart in a hurricane.
I heard the Wall Street Journal Report
radio segment this morning. It said all
of the tech sector saw decline except for
Apple and Motorola.
Dell said to have ‘dozens’ of burned laptop incidents on file
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/07/21/overheating_laptops/
Remember when Apple did their last stock split around the end of March last year, it put Apple’s and Dell’s around the same price – $40. Now AAPL is over $60, DELL under $20.
Here’s a two year chart not including today (yet)
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=2y&s=AAPL&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=dell&c=^IXIC
There´s trouble ahead —- Dell dropping , Intel and AMD, too. That says there is trouble in the computer market. Big trouble.
And it will effect Apple, too.
Apple´s numbers looked good because of huge pent up demand from Mac owners to get a new notebook computer.
The economy is slowing, people are seeing they don´t really need a new computer for what little they use it for.
Hence the very conservative forecast from Apple for the next quarter.
“Dell is under price pressure from the Chinese (Lenovo, etc) in the commodity market and from Apple at the high end. They are literally between a rock and a hard place.”
Except you make the mistake. Dell is the Hammer not the Anvil.
Because they have a very good low cost structure and fewer links in the distribution chain, they are better placed to take the fight to competitors on on price. They can inflict more pain than they take when doing that.
“Dell is about to open retail stores…but you won’t be able to actually BUY the product and take it home!!!
“
However have to agree the “can’t take it home” store is the most retarded idea ever. They better get smart and at least have some standard “take it now” configurations in stock.
Gandalf, nice chart, but you must click on “Scale=linear” to get a better comparison.
Such as this…
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AAPL&t=2y&l=off&z=m&q=l&c=dell,^IXIC
“vision is brilliant at 1 Infinite Loop.”
If the vision is to become a Dell clone in a pretty box, yes, that’s going well.
Market share isn’t worth a damn if you can’t turn a profit. Pundits have been obsessed with Apple’s small market share for years, while the company hums along making a pretty penny.
Dell has proven that if your only selling point is price, you’ve got nothing to fall back on.
It’s all well and good to cheer over the stock price and the market cap, but it’s all crap.
I’ll admit it, I’ve been itching to sell (XXX) and buy Apple for nearly a month, waiting for the “right time”, expected that would be “now” … but Apple tricked me and went up ahead of my expectation. Boo. BOO! So, I’m a bit ticked.
But! That’s not why it’s crap. It’s crap because it’s based on the perceptions of people who, more often than not, have no clue about the intricate worth of the company they are buying or selling. Back around 2001 the stock was valued at a dollar or two over the value of Apple’s cash-on-hand. If you bought it all at $14 a share and put Apple’s cash in your pocket you’d have ended up paying about $2 a share for the company! And those same shares would be worth $120 each today (it was pre-split).
Don’t fixate on the price of shares, they’ll kill you. Especially Apple’s – they make the rest of the market look sane. Sure … it’s nice to say “nyah-nyah Dell”, but don’t take it too seriously.
And would the cow please leave the gorilla alone?
They should have kept the pot smoking Dell dude. A least that was some sembalnce of cool.
” If Dell ceased to exist today – say Michael Dell sold the company and gave the money back to the shareholders – nobody outside the company would care. Another Windows box assembler would simply slide into place and the mediocrity would continue unabated.”
“The same could be said about Apple or any other PC maker, The others would take their share and life would go on.”
You couldn’t be more wrong.
It’s just funny watching people drool over the idea of 3.73 GHz dual processor dual core (4 cores total) workstations coming available later in the year, when they can buy those systems today in the PC world.
The day when there’s anything different about Apple hardware other than the packaging are over.
Apple – Yesterday’s computers Tomorrow.
“You couldn’t be more wrong.”
Tug, tell me more.
I didn’t say nobody would care, just hardly anybody except Mac Aficionados. There’s probably even a few people who might be sad if Dell went.
” If Dell ceased to exist today – say Michael Dell sold the company and gave the money back to the shareholders – nobody outside the company would care. Another Windows box assembler would simply slide into place and the mediocrity would continue unabated.”
There is a difference, a very big difference. Apple has style, ease of use, creativity, security,OSX, and iLife software suite. Dell just builds PC boxes, slaps in Windows with a bunch of spyware and sells them at discount rates. Apple is driving the PC market while Dell just exists because to many people are brain washed that Windows is the only operating system that you can use and they think there getting a good deal. In reality there not. There getting the cheapest quality hardware which has a very high failure rate. They get poor customer service from India that no one can understand. I’m afraid Apple is very different in every way possible than Dell.
It’s time for mikey dell to sell all the stocks and return the money to the share holders!!
“I’m afraid Apple is very different in every way possible than Dell.”
Did it ever occur to you that that is intentional.
Dell intends to be a low cost, extremely efficient producer of commodity hardware. They’re succeeding at it very well.
Apple intends to be a niche producer of stylish PC clones running Mac OS X.
Dell intends to sell a lot of hardware cheap based on operational excellence.
Apple intends to sell the same hardware to fewer people for more money based on stylish cases and good marketing.
They’re quite different strategies.
To say Dell doesnt try to do well what Apple tries to do well is to misunderstand that they don’t because they don’t want to.
And if you think that Apple has a special line on “Better” CPUs, hard disk drives, memory etc, then they’ve really got you fooled. Both are built by outsourced manufacturers using exactly the same components.
But that goes to show, Apple are good at marketing. Kudos to Apple for creating that perception with you.
“Apple is driving the PC market “
Apple’s not driving anything. For most people they’re a curiosity.
Microsoft, Intel, Dell and other vendors are driving the PC market.
Poor deleaguered Dell. I think that they should hire Gil Amelio as CEO to turn it around!
SCHADENFREUDE!
Yep! Well, Michael Dell, that’s what you get when your company DOESN’T DO ANYTHING ORIGINAL!! Michael Dell, you don’t INNOVATE one thing at all — all you do is sit back & assemble boxes. Dell, ANYBODY could do what you do — put a handful of monkeys in a room and they could do the same exact thing.
“It’s time for mikey dell to sell all the stocks and return the money to the share holders!!”
Just how ignorant are you about public companies? The shareholders own the stock, not Michael Dell although he is also a shareholder. They decide if and when to sell (except in some situations like mergers).
Like most tech stocks, most of Dell’s value isn’t in it’s cash or other assets, it’s in it’s future earnings.
You’d get more money selling your shares.
And yep, there’s some selling going on today…
Hey, SteveJackIsTalkingOutOfHisAss —
If you REALLY believe that the entire computer sector would NOT be affected if Apple ceased to exist tomorrow, you are truly insane.
Apple is virtually the ONLY consumer-oriented computer company doing ANY significant R&D in order to move the technological paradigm forward. Dell does NOTHING except research how to assemble boxes more cheaply. Such “research” is not life-changing, industry-altering, or paradigm-shifting. But what Apple does actually IS!
It has been said that the other computer companies utilize Apple as their R&D arm, taking much of what Apple develops and monetizing it as best they can to their own advantage. I believe this to be predominantly accurate.
What is the last technological innovation for which Dell has been responsible?
[crickets]
MDN is correct — If Dell went away tomorrow there would be barely a hiccup from the public or the tech world, since they bring nothing to the table except low-priced commodity boxes. A “specialty” which can be easily and quickly filled by dozens of other manufacturers.
“that’s what you get when your company DOESN’T DO ANYTHING ORIGINAL!!”
There’s some strange perception in this forum that a company has to be original to make money.
If that were the case, most businesses in America wouldn’t exist.
“put a handful of monkeys in a room and they could do the same exact thing.”
Sure, but not for the price that Dell does it. They tend to fling too much shit around and destroy perfectly good components.
Seriously, if you think you can duplicate Dell’s logistics in a trivial way, and get to 34% share of the US market for PCs, I’d pick up your monkeys and get busy.
It’s not Dell’s technology that makes them unique, it’s their operational excellence.
Great take MDN; couldn’t have said it any better.
MDN Magic Word: “other” That’s just eerie!
“What is the last technological innovation for which Dell has been responsible?”
You completely miss the point. Dell’s not trying to innovate. They’re trying to sell PCs and doing very well at it.
To say that Apple is the font of all innovation in the computer industry is pretty ignorant.
Apple could disappear and we’d still have new PCs and MP3 players being developed. After all Apple gets most of it’s creative ideas from outside too. They’re just really good at pretending they invented stuff.
Tell me one life changing thing that Apple invented last year.
Here’s a question: Why do we have to keep comparing Macs to Dells? For me there is no comparison, I don’t give two flying …leaps about Dell… The fact that enjoy and prefer using a Macintosh has nothing to do with what Dell does or doesn’t do.
Can somebody please give me a freaking break.
Next story.
@ SteveJackIs…blah!
Dell intends to be a low cost, extremely efficient producer of commodity hardware. They’re succeeding at it very well.
Really? Then I don’t understand how their market cap has declined by over 57% since 4th March 2005. Increased sales at the expense of profitability has the faint whiff of overtrading to it.
Apple intends to be a niche producer of stylish PC clones running Mac OS X.
Have I read a more shallow comment this year? Possibly not. Merely because a system has the same processor, I/O, graphics etc. does not make it a PC clone. Given that Apple have adopted EFI ahead of the real PC clone industry, which isn’t even supported by MSFT for Windows XP and that BIOS is the sine qua non of so-called ISA personal computers, I’m not even certain you can level the term ‘clone’ at Apple’s products.
Dell intends to sell a lot of hardware cheap based on operational excellence.
Operational excellence should also include service excellence. Where does Dell fall on that curve ? How about build quality? I’m a big fan of multi-purpose computers, but a laptop that can double as a barbecue seems a little extreme.
Apple’s not driving anything. For most people they’re a curiosity.
Microsoft, Intel, Dell and other vendors are driving the PC market.
Really? Microsoft are driving the PC market? Did I miss the launch of a Microsoft operating system since 2001? Thought not.
Plug-and-play? Apple had it first. Widespread deployment of USB as an expansion bus? Sorry to say it, but it was a dormant technology until the iMac came out. ZeroConf? 802.11g in laptops? Firewire? Finally adopted as part of the PC specification for Vista systems, Apple systems have sported FireWire for the best part of a decade.
And if Dell are driving the PC market, I’m George Clooney’s better-looking brother: a bunch of cheapskate bait-and-switch merchants whose equipment sets new lows for ergonomics and build quality. I’d rather buy Fujitsu-Siemens or even Samsung, the former has some solidity and the latter is cost-competitive.
Seriously, if you’re going to be a deluded Windows fanboy, at least come up with some valid arguments.
I had to comment on this, ‘cuz it gived me the giggles:
I didn’t say nobody would care, just hardly anybody except Mac Aficionados.
Translation: “Nobody would care, except those that would.”
Way to make a point, moron.
“Plug-and-play? Apple had it first. Widespread deployment of USB as an expansion bus? Sorry to say it, but it was a dormant technology until the iMac came out. ZeroConf? 802.11g in laptops? Firewire? Finally adopted as part of the PC specification for Vista systems, Apple systems have sported FireWire for the best part of a decade.”
Lets not rest on past laurels. I asked for this year.
And packaging somebody else’s technology doesn’t count, because that’s exactly what you’re accusing Dell of.
But anyway, to dismiss your list:
NuBUS: MIT developed NuBus, Texas Instruments did further work on it. The first “Apple” plug and play bus is NOT and Apple invention. That falls into that category of pretending they invented it. After PCI was introduced they saw the light and went with industry standard PCI.
USB: Did Apple invent that? Nope, again you’re pretending Apple invented it.
802.11g: YOu can’t be serious thinking Apple invented 802.11g? But if you were, you’d be pretending too.
Firewire: OK, that IS something Apple invented. Not this year though, in fact a VERY long time ago by PC standards. and it really doesn’t fall into the “life changing” category.
So can anybody tell me some life changing innovation that Apple Invented This Year?
=== Hairy Gorrilla said: ===
“After all they are salespeople and salespeople work on commission.”
==================
Apple store employees (“Mac Specialists”) do not work on commission, period.
The individual’s ability to successfully demonstrate the various benefits of AppleCare, ProCare and .Mac to the Mac or iPod customer is tracked (and the only real method of determining this is via sales figures – otherwise they’d need to do polls), but that is nothing like a commission situation.
Mac Specialists, I daresay, don’t even “want” you to buy a Mac so much as (worst case) leave the store well-informed and excited about the Mac, all myths dispelled. (That’s not to say there aren’t over-eager sales-minded individuals out there).
Mac Specialist are not motivated by the same things as, say, Best Buy or CompUSA’s pimply face salespeople are. They aren’t foisting off the remainders or overstock and touting them as the best thing going while lying through there GoGurt stained teeth.
“their GoGurt-stained teeth”
bite me, grammarpedants
Translation: “Nobody would care, except those that would.”
Not exactly. It means there’s a very small group of rabid Mac fans who would care, the ones who feel unhappy about the demise of the PPC, the ones who really like OS X.
Most Mac users are very comfortable with change in their underlying platform. They have to be if they have used a Mac for any period of time. They would just switch to Windows and get on with life.
“Nobody would care … ”
Except for the millions of individuals and the hundreds of corporations touched by Apple via the iTunes/iTunes Music Store/iPod machine.
You are being intractable in your effort to (attempt to) make a point.
SteveJackIsOnSpaceCookies is confusing us.
First he demands examples from last year [12:09], then this year [12:55].
[Tell me one life changing thing that Apple invented last year./So can anybody tell me some life changing innovation that Apple Invented This Year?]
He then flat out dismisses all examples, including FireWire. [FWIW, we understand that FW is from neither year.]
But Gosh, if FW isn’t “life changing”, give us an example — in your OPINION — what is “life changing”. Please don’t include getting frame-rates up on your DOOM rig.
Perhaps if you would use an example of what DELL has innovated — since Jan 1, 2005 — to clarify your query. That would enable us to be more accurate in our reply. Thx.
Dell was a pretty good hardware vendor back in 1996. I highly recommended them and purchased them for my work. They were above average in price but were very reliable. Then they decided to go after Gateway (I believe they tried to run Gateway out of business) by starting a price war. Now there is such little profit margin on their PC’s, any downturn in their sales hurts them. And their quality has gone downhill. I wouldn’t recommend Dell to my enemies.
“It means there’s a very small group of rabid Mac fans who would care, the ones who feel unhappy about the demise of the PPC, the ones who really like OS X.”
Okay, fair enough.
Now which do you think is a smaller group–“rabid Mac fans” or “rabid Dell fans”? Because with 30% of the US Market, there must be tons of rabid Dell fans out there, right?
As has been said, Dell offers a low price and not much else. If Dell disappeared tomorrow, HP would step in and take their place. The companies are interchangeable and nobody cares.
===
“Now which do you think is a smaller group–“rabid Mac fans” or “rabid Dell fans”? Because with 30% of the US Market, there must be tons of rabid Dell fans out there, right?”
===
Groan.
You obviously need to go back to school and pay attention to the statistics class this time…
Fail to see your point – if there is one.
It is a valid question, but you obviously can’t give an answer.
I’d like to know if there are more rabid DELL fans, than Mac fans.
But, please do your best Charlie Epps schpiele. Or is that Charlie Babbitt? (You don’t seem to mind the name-calling)
@ SteveJack…blah
What does your village do for an idiot when you go on holiday?
Did I at any point state that any of these things were Apple inventions? NO!
My point was that they were examples of Apple either being the first to use a technology in a commercially available product (eg. NuBus – btw, a bus without a computer is as much use as a bicycle is to a fish, nobody ever went into Fry’s or PC World and said “Excuse me, have you got any buses ?”, but also see PostScript for another example) or taking a technology which was languishing in a miasma of general apathy (see USB).
I can pick any year in the last five to ten years and find an example of Apple pushing the marketplace, whereas Dell can only ever do what Microsoft and AMD/Intel allow them to do which since the launch of Windows XP back in 2001 is pretty much 10% of bugger all.
So can anybody tell me some life changing innovation that Apple Invented This Year?
BTW, the answer is probably Yes if you can wait until August 7.
In return, you’ve got to show me something that Dell or Microsoft have invented this year.
So……….. where the hell is the MacRealist?
Last couple of days must have him eating shit and dying!
MDN word: hospital —– God I love it there’s too many ways to go.
“As has been said, Dell offers a low price and not much else. If Dell disappeared tomorrow, HP would step in and take their place. The companies are interchangeable and nobody cares.”
I already agreed with that point, a long time ago. So can we stop trying to argue that one.
But unfortunately Apple is the same, for most uses they’re interchangeable, nobody would care.
“Merely because a system has the same processor, I/O, graphics etc. does not make it a PC clone”
Actually that’s exactly what makes it a PC clone.
“Except for the millions of individuals and the hundreds of corporations touched by Apple via the iTunes/iTunes Music Store/iPod machine.”
You could make the same point for the much larger group of Dell customers, but the point is, even with iTunes, people would just switch to something else and carry on with life. iTunes certainly isn’t unique technology, or even anywhere near the most popular way people get music for their iPods. People would just buy other MP3 players. Like today people would continue to rip CDs, download “free” music and occasionally buy music from other online music stores.
“Did I at any point state that any of these things were Apple inventions? NO!”
Thanks, so you concede that Apple, like Dell just uses other people’s inventions. Good. We’re making progress. Therefore people would care if the people actually inventing things went away, but not actually care if Apple went away.
“ever went into Fry’s or PC World and said “Excuse me, have you got any buses ?”, “
Yes, back in the old days I might have gone into Fry’s (Had they existed then) and said, give me an S100 Bus backplane. Then gone and got one of the many compatible computer CPU boards to plug into it. I guess that’s about as close as you could come to “Buying a Bus”. Probably before your time. Also TI did market machines using NuBus, so they could have brought those too.
“In return, you’ve got to show me something that Dell or Microsoft have invented this year.”
WHY WHY WHY. I already said that Dell doesn’t invent much. They just efficiently build and sell stuff. You’re still trying to argue points I already stated myself..
“PostScript for another example”
Now people would care if Adobe, the people who actually invented Postscript vanished. Then they’d have no Photoshop for Windows to buy after Apple vanished and they switched to Windows and got on with life.
“BTW, the answer is probably Yes if you can wait until August 7.”
Sure I can wait, but are we just going to see something that somebody else invented first now used by Apple or something that Apple actually invented? So far the only thing anyone’s mentioned that Apple invented is Firewire…
“What does your village do for an idiot when you go on holiday?”
When they needed a village Idiot, they looked for the smartest “Genius” from an Apple retail store then trained him up a bit. He has his good days and bad days. Sometimes he gets the drooling right, sometimes not. Most of the time he just bangs his head on things and says “PC Bad, Mac Good”. When asked why, he just bites people and runs in circles saying wibble. Much like some people in this forum actually.
The statement by MDN was . . .
“If Dell ceased to exist today [ . . . ] nobody outside the company would care. Another Windows box assembler would simply slide into place and the mediocrity would continue unabated.”
MDN’s comments related to the ease and lack of specialness that are part and parcel of the PC computing experience — precisely because the parts, pieces and operating system are available from multiple sources. Dell is virtually indistinguishable as a commodity box maker from any other commodity box maker . . . aside from the logo, that is.
It’s YOU who tried to turn the statement around by writing . . .
“The others would take their [Apple’s] share and life would go on.”
Neither MDN nor anyone else ever claimed that the entire computing world would implode if Apple went away tomorrow. They simply stated that the small gurgling of Dell fading from the scene wouldn’t amount to much in comparison to the seismic tremors of Apple ceasing to exist. Of COURSE no one company is an island, but that’s where you’re missing the point . . . I think purposely.
The list of the myriad ways in which Apple impacts people on a rarified level is far, far greater than what one can say about Dell. Dell does nothing except put together commodity parts in standard configurations on which people can run Windows. Those are all things that can be done by — or obtained from — a significant number of other companies.
And of course the iTunes/iTMS/iPod combination would eventually be replaced by something else if Apple went away tomorrow. It will eventually be replaced by something else anyway. The point is that millions of people would be affected in a big way tomorrow — far more than anyone would if Dell closed up shop tomorrow!. An HP is a Dell is a Sony is a Compaq is a [insert box maker here]. The Apple paradigm and the manner in which their tentacles reach into multiple facets of people’s lives is far more impactful than that of a commodity box assembler selling stock parts and another company’s operating system.
But perhaps the most laughable part of your statements is your attempt to lend credibility to your claim by using specious and wildly vague language such as . . .
” . . . a few Mac afficionados.”
. . . conveniently forgetting the millions of people amongst schools, colleges, design firms, artists, educators, musicians, laboratories, supercomputer clusters, printers, service bureaus, prepress houses, hotels, and small business owners that use a computer and an operating system produced only by Apple.
Eighteen to 20 million OS X users and 25 to 30 million Mac users is hardly “a few”.
Your oversimplification of the issue and concurrent parsing of others’ words is hardly worthy of a gentlemanly debate.
“Neither MDN nor anyone else ever claimed that the entire computing world would implode if Apple went away tomorrow. “
Nor am I claiming that, quite the reverse. My whole point was that what went for Dell went equally well for Apple.
“Dell does nothing except put together commodity parts in standard configurations on which people can run Windows.”
Again, how many times must we belabor that point, it’s true, people would just buy other PCs.
” manner in which their tentacles reach into multiple facets of people’s lives is far more impactful than that of a commodity box assembler selling stock parts”
I’m not sure I like the idea of tentacles reaching into my life. Tell me how to recognise the problem. If the problem is that I own an iPod and I’d have to buy my next iPod like device from someone else, how much of a problem is that?
You’d be surprised how many things in your life depend on Dell too.
But nevertheless the point is if either went away tomorrow, people would adapt and adapt fairly easily.
“use a computer and an operating system produced only by Apple.”
Yet the functions they use them for can easily be done on a PC or other type of computer. Most of those millions would just buy another computer next time and get on with life.
Taking it a step further, an overnight effect:
If all Windows PCs in the world vanished, and all copies of Windows with them (Including servers and those running on Macs and linux boxes), then life as you know it would stop because a Mac is not a complete replacement for a PC. PCs are just too embedded in the fabric of your daily life.
If all Macs in the world vanished, there would be a blip in PC sales as people replaced systems and got on with life, nothing more.
“seismic tremors of Apple ceasing to exist”
Yes, and like the 20,000 seismic tremors occurring each year in California, most of those tremors would not be noticed.
Dude, Apple’s absence would be noticed way more than Dell’s. Sure everyone would adapt, that’s life, but Wall Street and iPod users and even the media would feel a big loss for quite awhile longer than if they suddenly lost Dell and their Dell Dimension XZV5800-TL or whatever.
Get real.
Too many space cookies.
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Thanks, so you concede that Apple, like Dell just uses other people’s inventions. Good. We’re making progress. Therefore people would care if the people actually inventing things went away, but not actually care if Apple went away.
Blessed with selective reading, aren’t we.
Seeing as I’d never put forward an argument that Apple were responsible for the invention, I can hardly be conceding a point that was never on the table in the first place: still I can understand your need to shore up your insecurity by claiming a victory on an argument that never existed.
Yes, back in the old days I might have gone into Fry’s (Had they existed then) and said, give me an S100 Bus backplane. Then gone and got one of the many compatible computer CPU boards to plug into it. I guess that’s about as close as you could come to “Buying a Bus”. Probably before your time. Also TI did market machines using NuBus, so they could have brought those too.
Actually, I’m 43 so I remember the early hobbyist days quite well thanks very much, so here’s a question? Can an expansion bus achieve anything without a computer? And now the next question is can a computer exist without an expansion bus?
Your argument here appears to be that Apple didn’t popularise NuBus, it was TI or it could have been TI and Apple were inconsequential. This is – with no respect whatsoever – horse shit. TI made great oscillosopes, and some calculators but they have never been a mass manufacturer of personal computers and never had the consumer marketing skills or any grip on the zeitgeist of that market.
Actually that’s exactly what makes it a PC clone.
Again, horse shit – a current ‘industry-standard architecture’ PC ‘clone’ (in the original Compaq sense of the word) would require BIOS to run Windows XP, and the Intel-powered Macintoshes’ EFI excludes them from that. Now – just so you’re clear – I’m not claiming that Apple invented EFI, but (yet again) Apple are the manufacturer who are saying “to Hell with the past, let’s create integrated hardware/software platforms that can operate as well in people’s homes or a biotech lab or a supercomputing grid”.
And its that culture and capability that makes Apple unique. If they want to build grid computing into the OS, they do it. If they want to implement Zero Configuration networking into the OS (which they did in August 2002, with Jaguar) they do it. If they decide that the floppy-disk has had its day, they take it out of the platform.
Dell will never have that degree of courage or imagination. The only way they ‘push’ the market is by using their purchasing power to create a teardown cost that is as low as possible. On that basis, the most important people at Dell are the purchasing department and – now that the Chinese are in town to take their lunch money – that’s not a company that Wall Street seems to particularly care for very much.
Put it another way: any fucking idiot with a good eye for a deal and no care or concern for the concept of customer care can build a Dell Corporation clone. Whereas, it takes a sense of vision to build a company that has some solid future value.
The figures don’t lie: Dell’s worth 43% of what it was worth in March 05, and Apple is worth 50% more. Even more tellingly, Microsoft has – in the last 24 hours – decided to start returning money to shareholders in vast quantities, which says a) says something about their need to make their shares more attractive and b) says that they really have no productive or imaginative vision for how to use that money in any other way.
WHY WHY WHY. I already said that Dell doesn’t invent much
I’ll tell you why – because you said earlier
Microsoft, Intel, Dell and other vendors are driving the PC market
which was a stupid comment when you thought it, but then you decided to kick it into another class of stupidity when you typed it on a keyboard.
“Wall Street and iPod users and even the media would feel a big loss for quite awhile longer “
Not really, tell me something Apple does that’s so unique that there’s not a close acceptable substitute.
Yet the functions they use them for can easily be done on a PC or other type of computer. Most of those millions would just buy another computer next time and get on with life.
Taking it a step further, an overnight effect:
If all Windows PCs in the world vanished, and all copies of Windows with them (Including servers and those running on Macs and linux boxes), then life as you know it would stop because a Mac is not a complete replacement for a PC. PCs are just too embedded in the fabric of your daily life.
If all Macs in the world vanished, there would be a blip in PC sales as people replaced systems and got on with life, nothing more.
And as for this steaming pile of crap, you really need to have a think about what you’re saying.
Given that most business apps for major corporates are still running on mainframes or high-end Unix and OS/400-type systems, those Windows systems could disappear tomorrow and all that would have to happen is that someone would have to rewrite the screen scraper apps. The real difference is that a whole world full of people would discover that they’d been using a second-rate quarter-assed knock-off of the Macintosh. And they’d have to stop playing Solitaire and get on with some real work.
“which was a stupid comment when you thought it,”
Why, counterexample please. How is Apple a more important player than say Microsoft or Intel? Who’s better at getting Microsoft and Intel’s developments to customers than Dell?
And in that scenario, Apple is somehow the secret force driving these guys along? Please… That’s too amusing.
“BIOS to run Windows XP, and the Intel-powered Macintoshes’ EFI excludes them from that”
And boot camp works around that. Fundamentally the latest Mac is architecturally a standard PC clone. It walks like a Duck, it quacks like a Duck… Rewrite the firmware, it is a Duck….
“Put it another way: any fucking idiot with a good eye for a deal and no care or concern for the concept of customer care can build a Dell Corporation clone.”
Yet strangely enough, despite the billions at stake if you succeed, nobody has. The only implication from that is that it can’t be as easy as you think.
” b) says that they really have no productive or imaginative vision for how to use that money in any other way.”
The answer is they throw off so much cash that they can do all the R&D they want to and still have a mountain of it left. You’re right. They have so much cash they don’t know what to do with it. In that case good corporate governance says give it back.
“Your argument here appears to be that Apple didn’t popularise NuBus,”
No my argument is that somebody else invented the technology and Apple just used it and sold it. No innovation at Apple, just use of technology that someone else invented. Just like Dell taking and using many technologies which other people invent.
Not really, tell me something Apple does that’s so unique that there’s not a close acceptable substitute.
Not “does that’s so unique”. Rather, does so WELL!
For instance, keeps the media guessing and makes for great news stories.
And provides an awesome user experience for iPod and iTunes users with their iTunes/iTunes Music Store/iPod combination — something that no one else has. Certainly not in any form anywhere near as seamless and user-friendly.
“Given that most business apps for major corporates are still running on mainframes or high-end Unix and OS/400-type systems, those Windows systems could disappear tomorrow and all that would have to happen is that someone would have to rewrite the screen scraper apps. The real difference is that a whole world full of people would discover that they’d been using a second-rate quarter-assed knock-off of the Macintosh. And they’d have to stop playing Solitaire and get on with some real work.”
I think you misunderstand just how many people have migrated apps to Windows servers, just how many business critical apps sit on Windows servers, just how much critical data sits there, and just how many corporate apps and tools that use that data run only under Windows.
There’s not a modern corporation that could function if it’s Windows systems disappeared.
“iPod and iTunes users with their iTunes/iTunes Music Store/iPod combination — something that no one else has. Certainly not in any form anywhere near as seamless and user-friendly.”
But hardly a “mission critical” app for anyone. If Every iPod on the planet transmogrifies into a Zune player tomorrow. What’s the real impact?
SteveJackIsOnSpaceCookies’ whole line of thinking wreaks of Joe McConnell.
Haven’t you got that Mac mini, yet?
“Not really, tell me something Apple does that’s so unique … ”
Loyalty.
The ironic thing is that what Dell has been pushing (cheap! cheap! and generic) has finally bitten him in the buttocks. If you sell your product that way, you command no loyalty from customers, as they’ll just use something else that’s cheaper, since it’s all the same Windows box, right? Meanwhile, Apple was selling distinctive products. Sure, they were more expensive, but with that price came quality and loyalty. By selling the cheapest PCs around, Dell had lots of customers, but no admirers, and when the price isn’t as good as it was, then their customers find a new supplier. Life’s rough in low-end PCs, which is why successful companies don’t stay there. Look at the automotive market for a primer, Mr. Dell.
SteveJack…: “But hardly a “mission critical” app for anyone.”
Nice try at a save there, buddy. But the “But” gives away the failure of your argument.
You lose.
Hairy Gorrilla: you said “apple store employees are actively selling MacTels to customers with the intention they go home and install Windows.
After all they are salespeople and salespeople work on commission.”
BUT: the truth is, (sinse I work for Apple in one of their stores), we don’t work on commission, and we usually let them know in a polite way how crappy windows is, but should they need to run some of their existing software, then we teach them about Parallels, as a safer way to run windows, which is better than boot camp. Also, we let people know about Codeweaver’s Wine project coming out soon, which will let you run windows apps in Mac OS X, WITHOUT the need for windows or a virtual environment.
“Nice try at a save there, buddy. But the “But” gives away the failure of your argument.”
The argument is that perfectly acceptable alternatives to the iPod exist that would be taken up if no more iPods were made.
The But is that the iPod is a special case. Even if no such alternatives existed no major harm would be done to anything if Apple stopped producing them.
“Loyalty.”
We’re talking about products which have substitutes.
If Apple went away nobody needs to replace their “Loyalty” when it gets broken, or can’t get work done because their new “Loyalty” doesn’t have all the features of their old “Loyalty”.
They’ll be sad Apple’s gone for sure, but pick up the next product off the shelf which does the same job for them and get on with their lives.
Wellsome Apple customers will find that they do have an irrational need to become loyal to something.
@ SteveJack…blah
Let’s compare my experience with yours: Before I decided that life was too short, I’ve project managed the rollout of Windows platforms to well over 10000 seats, including servers and clients in such wonderful places as Azerbaijan, Angola, Algeria, and Kazakhstan for oil, tobacco, finance and insurance companies.
You go into a major financial centre or an oil company and see how many of them trust their mission-critical apps to MSFT platforms and how many still keep them on AIX, Solaris or OS/400. I know Microsoft’s propaganda would like you to believe that the business world has decided that Windows Server 2003 Datacenter combined with SQL Server has taken the world by storm, but the truth is that it hasn’t
The simple fact of the matter is that – even with something as simple as web servers and persistant data stores – more companies would rather rely on Linux and MySQL than on Windows Server, ASP and the whole discredited Microsoft ball of wax.
“Look at the automotive market for a primer, Mr. Dell.”
You can’t be serious. All major manufacturers have brand offerings which cover the whole range, and you can bet they sell a lot more products in their cheap brands compared to their luxury ones.
“Life’s rough in low-end PCs, which is why successful companies don’t stay there”
Sure life’s tough in a commodity market, but the facts don’t support that companies are moving out of the low end. All PC companies with any significant market share have low end offerings, (as well as midrange and high end ones) and have been doing it for years.
“rollout of Windows platforms to well over 10000 seats”
Clearly a trivial process which didn’t need much planning, since you can replace them all tomorrow with Macs.
You’re my hero. The world’s greatest IT Project Manager.
Go to Redmond, offer to tell them what you know. Your knowledge is worth Billions.
I didn’t say those other pieces don’t exist, only that when you remove all the Windows pieces in the solution, you end up with a non functioning company.
Just what do you think would happen to those systems you implemented if all 10000 PCs disappeared overnight?
As you were responding to my question, you seem to be saying there wouldn’t be chaos. Somehow I don’t find that to be credible.
“rollout of Windows platforms to well over 10000 seats”
Second thought, don’t go there. They’ll probably have you killed to keep this wonderful knowledge, of how to instantly replace all Microsoft Windows PCs with Macs, from the world.
You’re current the biggest threat to Windows dominance on the planet. be careful.
If Apple disappeared tomorrow, Windows development would become even slower than it is now, if not nonexistent. Microsoft only “innovates” when it’s forced to (look at IE), and when it does it relies on Apple for most of its ideas.
That’s why Apple is driving the PC industry.
HIMSELF SAID:
=====
BUT: the truth is, (sinse I work for Apple in one of their stores), we don’t work on commission, and we…
=====
If you work for Apple, you need to go back and get re-trained on company policy regarding outside communications. FYI.
“Microsoft only “innovates” when it’s forced to (look at IE), and when it does it relies on Apple for most of its ideas.”
I’d say that Microsoft continually looks at where it’s strong and weak compared to the competition and integrates good ideas other people have.
Likewise other people, Apple included, rip off Microsoft’s ideas.
And I’d agree Microsoft respond quickly to threats, and at their own pace when no threat exists. But it’s hard to argue with that as a business practice, focusing attention where you need to.
Apple’s situation is that they’re continually under threat, a few wrong steps and they’re dog-meat, the iPod’s big growth years are behind it, and the Mac doesn’t really offer anything people can’t get with Windows.
In the browser space, it’s Firefox that’s had the big effect, and before them Netscape, not Apple.
But Microsoft’s product line is huge and goes well beyond Windows and a browser, and Apple’s effect on most of those products is completely non existent.
In any case, it’s well established that Apple wasn’t the source of most of it’s ideas, they just “borrowed” or licensed other people’s ideas.
We’re still looking for that one true Apple invention (other than firewire), and still looking for one made this year. Heck I’d settle for one in the last couple of years.
@SteveJack >
Actually, to my shame, I was used by a major oil company because my Mac knowledge enabled them to work out how to move away from Macs. But if I didn’t do it, somebody else would have done and the money looked better in my bank account. After that, I just got a reputation for rescuing difficult projects that were encountering resistance.
With every post, you reveal yourself as someone who knows very little about the “real” world of IT as well as being a bit of a “bait and switch” merchant who never addresses the issues put to you.
The client on the desk in corporate environments is largely interchangable: most users have no specialist application, although there is possibly a “line of business” app like CRM or ERP which is increasingly published through a Web front-end. And a significant proportion of the remainder are based on terminal emulation environments (like 3270 or VT220).
So what we’re talking about is Office: Office is available on a Mac, and is – arguably – better on a Mac as it focusses on genuine user needs rather than a bunch of meaningless bloat that nobody in an average company – remember that the average company in the US has around 35 employees and the average in the UK is around 18 – will ever deploy or learn to use. Then the only “advantage” that Windows has is Exchange/Outlook, which – given the size of the average company – would probably be bettered served by Kerio’s MailServer running on OS X server. Even so, I could use Entourage or other tools to get to Exchange servers whilst migrating them to a less predatory environment.
If I want to implement a typical 25-user system (file/print/e-mail/web server/DBMS), I can do it more cheaply on a fully Macintosh network than I can on a Windows network (largely because of MSFT’s predatory CAL costs) so not only can I purchase a more solidly engineered system with better inate security, but I can also pay less for it. Also, by using a Macintosh core, I can support both Windows and Mac clients as equals – something that MSFT’s Small Business Server singularly fails to achieve as much by crude marketing-led design as anything else.
There is – to finish off this tiresome argument – nothing that a Windows machine can do that a Macintosh can’t do, except possibly act a a source of spambots, a target for spyware, adware and viruses. However, if you want a Windows system to do the same things as a Mac, you have a problem…
How do you ensure the security of Windows system, without spending more time and/or money?
How do you offer Windows users with special needs the same universal access tools as a Mac, without spending more money?
As for your comment about the removal of Windows systems causing chaos, you have to balance that against the chaos that they cause: back in November 2004, a routine Systems Management Server job at the UK’s Department of Work and Pensions left 80,000 civil servants without their computers and they had to resort to writing out cheques by hand to benefit claimants. Whilst this was mainly the fault of systems admin staff, the paucity of security in the Windows architecture means that staff have to execute more patches with greater frequency thus increasing the risk of a major outage.
And if you’re looking for an Apple invention in the last twelve months, try this.
And if you don’t believe that is a world-changing patent, God forbid you should ever suffer from a crippling attack of arthritis that renders you unable to press a button, flick a switch or turn a control knob.
“nothing that a Windows machine can do that a Macintosh can’t do, “
I beg to differ. Outside the core apps like the office suite, email, web browsing there are thousands of applications only available for the PC.
Have you ever tried to run any of thousands of vertical market business applications, do serious CAD on a Mac, any form of electronic design, run a CNC machine, develop software for embedded electronics, control a manufacturing plant, run any of the thousands of little “Glue” apps that people build to do things in VB or Access with data from those ERP systems? The list just goes on and on.
I didn’t think so.
Could you rewrite anything on the Mac platform, or port it? Sure. Could you migrate to similar apps on other Unix platforms? in some cases, yes. But that’s not the point. Today it’s not a direct substitute.
So while I agree there’s a large number of things you can just switch over, you can’t switch everything. But coming from Mac to PC you can. A Mac’s capability is a subset of the PC’s.
Security on Windows desktops is easily achieved by the competent. You can’t blame Windows for the incompetent acts of British civil servants (Is there a more technologically incompetent group of people anywhere else in the world, the UK civil service in particular and the UK in general? Well somewhere probably there is but you have to look hard)
And based on your responses I doubt you had the level of senior involvement in the projects that you claim to have had, nor worked in any major role in any large IT shop. It sounds like you put together small networks for small businesses. In that case I agree, where they only want generic productivity apps, web browsing or terminal emulation, not specific vertical market apps, you can do the job with a Mac.
“bit of a “bait and switch” merchant who never addresses the issues put to you.”
I keep bringing people back to the initial points I made, not irrelevant side issues, but nevertheless, give me the concise list of things you think I’ve missed addressing and I’ll respond.
Just as a reminder the initial position put forward was that if Apple faded from the scene, people would be able to switch to other products and get on with life without major disruption, and that I do not dispute that the same is true of Dell.
As Cramer would say…BOTTOM LINE….
STEVE JACK HAS QUITE OBVIOUSLY NEVER USED MAC OSX OR ILIFE OR FINAL CUT PRO OR KEYNOTE OR BONJOUR IN ANY SERIOUS WAY
(sorry, playing around with a Mac for a couple hours does not sufficiently demonstrate its life changing ability and efficiency to get your work done in the most seamless way compared with the alternative)
newton’s right — guy’s probably never really worked with a Mac for any length of time. that’s why he’s ignorant.
and ignorance is a “terrible shame. terrible, terrible shame.”
“major disruption” is a vague and subjective term. people could always “switch” to other products — I’m sure some people switch to or from an iPod every day — but the ease of use and seamless nature of the Mac experience can’t be duplicated on Windows — just like you can’t duplicate the security problems of a PC on an inherently more secure Mac. both would cause major disruptions to millions of users of Macs and millions more who use iPods. the disruptions might not last for several months, but definitely longer than any disruption caused by Dell going away — which would probably resonate for a week, tops. they make the same exact things as many other companies, so, just order from any of more than a dozen other sources. only Apple makes Macs and iPods.
ease of use, seamlessness and hella better security trump “switching to something else without major disruption” every time.
The majority of users in the world don’t use CNC machines, and you’re being a disingenuous fuckwit for trying to change your argument again. It’s the 80/20 rule – 80% of users use 20% of the available functionality of a machine. most users in a given organisation are – as likely as not – administrators in sales, marketing, HR and accounts, they neither require nor understand CNC machines or CAD programs.
Another thing you should possibly learn to do is some more research: have you read this release? No, why would you stuck in your own little world of ignorance.
As a question: If security is so easily achieved, how come Microsoft have been so singularly incapable of building it in at source? Maybe – by your own standards – they’re incompetent. So – to sum up your position – we should entrust our computing future to people who are incompetent. Interesting logic. Do you aspire to a career in IT support once you stop flipping burgers? Because that’s the only justification for that kind of reasoning.
Of course, your argument is specious: nobody would ever propose or expect all the machines running Windows be replaced overnight. Given time and appropriate porting of Visual Basic into REAL Basic and C-based code into the Mac’s own development tools, Windows has nothing that the AVERAGE company couldn’t replace in a Mac environment in less than six months and nothing that an Enterprise class customer couldn’t replace in 18 months given political will and a budget. Of course, it would cost money to implement – but seeing as you could afford to fire 80% of your IT support staff, you’d probably be quids in within three years.
And just as a reminder that you’re a smug, self-satisfied cretin with no sense of history, let’s first of all remember that the Web to which you’re posting was created by a British scientist working on assignment to a European atomic research organisation. Let’s also remember that the SMS screw-up was the fault of EDS, which is – as far as I remember as a former contract supplier – an American company (actually the stupidity there is in retaining EDS to do anything anywhere). BTW, if the British are so technically incompetent, how come so many of the senior positions at Lockheed’s SkunkWorks are or have been filled by Brits. But then again, we did invent the jet engine. How come the UK is the centre of gravity for the motorsport industry? And why is the UK in the forefront of genetic research, whilst the US thrashes about deciding whether to re-run the Scopes trial.
As a closing point, it should also be noted that various US institutions have had problems with Windows, including – IIRC – some functions of the FAA, which is just where I’d want issues.
BTW, nice try with the trolling calling my professional record into question: I have references from my customers commending the work my company has executed in the past: I can provide proof of being the PM for 2650 clients migrated to Windows 2000 in 28 weeks, including application testing of over 150 “non-standard” applications, a project which won several awards from the Corporate community here in the UK. So bite me.
“STEVE JACK HAS QUITE OBVIOUSLY NEVER USED MAC OSX OR ILIFE OR FINAL CUT PRO OR KEYNOTE OR BONJOUR IN ANY SERIOUS WAY”
The point is substitutes for all these apps exist. These are not things that make a Mac indispensable.
“the disruptions might not last for several months,”
And you’re right. You seem to be agreeing with my initial point. People would pick up other products, they would get on with life.
“ease of use, seamlessness and hella better security trump “switching to something else without major disruption” every time.”
These are somewhat intangible things, which are still the subject of much debate as to whether those proposed Mac advantages actually exist or not outside the minds of Mac users. But even if you turned out to be right, you’re balancing that against an 100% inability to get things done because the corresponding app doesn’t exist. As noted the Mac has a subset of PC capability.
Is Photoshop on a PC harder to use than Photoshop on a Mac? Does the switch even require much thought? Please…. is ILife the best suite of apps to do the job it does, or even suitable for professional business use for anything? Nope.
Are most Windows users plagued by viruses to the point where the can’t get work done? Only in the minds of Mac users.
Would Apple users just switch to ordering PCs and the PC versions of the Apps they use today, and get on with life? Sure they would.
So basiclym you get 45% of Apple earning per share but a share price is just 30% of Apple – that’s a 50% more income per buck invested, pretty good deal.
Except they also seem to exist in the mind of many commentators.
Didn’t one of the anti-virus companies recently endorse the Mac as a better platform from a security perspective?
And doesn’t the US Government (I think the DoJ or the FBI or somesuch) specifically mandate the usage of Macintoshes for ‘secure’ applications, whilst specifically forbidding the use of Windows for those same purposes.
And where precisely is the Windows equivalent of Bonjour, other than in Apple’s release of Bonjour for Windows. Please don’t say UPnP because the two things aren’t even close. Where is the Windows equivalent of Spotlight? Or Expose? Where is the Microsoft equivalent of Xgrid or Xsan?
BTW, how’s Vista coming along – still going to make its 20th or 200th revised shipping date? Or is it going to be late, sorry later.
And I think you’ll find a Windows machine has subset of a Macintosh’s functionality. If I have a Mac, I can run Macintosh natively, as well as running Solaris, Unix, X11, Windows, Linux and what have you in an application box. If I have Windows, I might be able to do a lot of that – but I can’t run Mac OS, so – as a computing Swiss Army Knife – the Macintosh wins again.
And you still haven’t answered my point: if Dell are doing such a bang-up job, why has their market cap declined by over 50% in around 15 months whilst Apple’s has increased by 50% over the same period. Maybe you should be applying for a job and sharing your executive expertise. That should get rid of them a little quicker.
“the disruptions might not last for several months,”
And you’re right. You seem to be agreeing with my initial point. People would pick up other products, they would get on with life.
NO, he also wrote “…but definitely longer than any disruption caused by Dell going away.”
Stop parsing text.
“ease of use, seamlessness and hella better security trump “switching to something else without major disruption” every time.”
These are somewhat intangible things, which are still the subject of much debate as to whether those proposed Mac advantages actually exist or not outside the minds of Mac users.
No, they’re not. YOU say they are, but that’s how we’ve determined your ignorance with regard to the issue.
Is Photoshop on a PC harder to use than Photoshop on a Mac?
Yes, it is. As one example, color correction, matching, and consistency (crusial to effective Photoshop use) are much, much harder to achieve (some say nearly impossible) on a PC than on a Mac. That’s not a subjective datapoint.
Does the switch even require much thought?
See above answer.
Please…. is ILife the best suite of apps to do the job it does…
Your ignorance of things Macintosh is further revealed — it’s iLife, not ILife. And yes, in its market space it probably IS the best suite of app’s for the job.
…or even suitable for professional business use for anything?
Straw man.
Would Apple users just switch to ordering PCs and the PC versions of the Apps they use today, and get on with life?
I believe it’s already been stated that no company is an island. That’s not being argued. Rather, it’s the EASE with which people could “get on with life”. You keep downplaying it — or not even addressing it — because quantifying the EASE against the fact that it could be done at all disproves your position.
“The majority of users in the world don’t use CNC machines, and you’re being a disingenuous fuckwit for trying to change your argument again.”
The majority don’t make Final Cut Pro movies either. but just about every manufactured object in your house relied on a CNC machine (for prototypes, tooling or actual manufacture) or CAD program at some point. So it does affect your life in a very significant way.
It’ll affect it much more than if your iPod vaporized.
“how come Microsoft have been so singularly incapable of building it in at source?”
They continue to improve. Unix wasn’t secure for it’s first 30 or 40 years either, still has problems. Note my argument wasn’t that Windows is perfectly secure. That’s an example of a distraction on your part.
“have you read this release?”
A link to a as yet unreleased product. Yep, lets all switch from stable proven tools to the beta program for this product. You’re a smart IT consultant. Give me more good advice.
“PM for 2650 clients migrated to Windows 2000 in 28 weeks”
Sounds like a lot less than 10,000. And was it from Mac to Windows or Windows NT to Windows 2000?
Anyway as I noted, claiming to be the best at something in the UK isn’t jumping a very high bar.
You can always find a few bright spots, but for the most part Technology Leadership and UK parted ways a long time ago (Don’t know if it was before or after invention of the gas turbine jet engine 70 years ago, and seem to remember The Germans also manged to independently develop the same thing and certainly managed to actually use it for something first).
Nobody doubts that the UK had a golden age for science, but that was a long time ago.
“Windows has nothing that the AVERAGE company couldn’t replace in a Mac environment in less than six months and nothing that an Enterprise class customer couldn’t replace in 18 months given political will and a budget.”
Don’t disagree, but now we’re apparently requiring 18 months, a desire to do it, and the budget, not just a trivial swap. Whereas a vendor can stop buying Dells one day and start buying HPs the next with very few issues.
C’mon. Tell me you can get the board of a large public company to approve a switch from Dell to Apple as easily as you can get them to approve a switch from Dell to HP.
If Dell disappeared, you can bet that people’s first thoughts wont be “Gee, we’ve always been thinking about Macs, now’s the time to migrate”…
MCCFR — “Maybe you should be applying for a job and sharing your executive expertise. That should get rid of them a little quicker.”
Ouch!
@ Lack >
It’s only really a deal if the buggers pay dividends or use the money to buy back stock and reduce dilution. If the share price keeps declining against a declining share count, a loss is just a loss.
From above:
Funky Dunky: “If Dell went away tomorrow there would be barely a hiccup from the public or the tech world, since they bring nothing to the table except low-priced commodity boxes. A “specialty” which can be easily and quickly filled by dozens of other manufacturers.”
Darren: “Dude, Apple’s absence would be noticed way more than Dell’s. Sure everyone would adapt, that’s life, but Wall Street and iPod users and even the media would feel a big loss for quite awhile longer than if they suddenly lost Dell and their Dell Dimension XZV5800-TL or whatever.”
River: “the disruptions might not last for several months, but definitely longer than any disruption caused by Dell going away — which would probably resonate for a week, tops. they make the same exact things as many other companies, so, just order from any of more than a dozen other sources. only Apple makes Macs and iPods.”
And now . . .
SteveJack…: “Whereas a vendor can stop buying Dells one day and start buying HPs the next with very few issues.”
“probably IS the best suite of app’s for the job.”
There’s NO WAY that iLife’s Apps are even close to the leading products in their categories.
Are you defining the job as crappy low end home photo editing and management, movie, web page and music creation done on an Apple Mac?
But again it’s irrelevant. Perfectly acceptable sustitutes exist, people would switch and get on with their lives.
Pathetic, what’s your point? Everybody’s saying the same thing. A Dell PC is easily replaced by any other PC.
The only point of contention is whether an Apple PC is easily replaced by any other PC.
^ Ignoring all of my other points. Again, parsing text. Tsk tsk tsk.
You said, ” . . . is ILife [sic] the best suite of apps to do the job it does… ?”
I said, ” . . . in its market space it probably IS the best suite of app’s for the job.”
You asked for a “suite” of app’s. iLife is such a product. A suite. Please point out a competing suite of app’s on the Windows side designed purposely to do the same thing.
Also, your comments about iLife’s operational effectiveness reveal your lack of experience with the actual product.
And now you say, “Perfectly acceptable sustitutes exist …”
“Perfectly acceptable” is somehow equal to an award-winning suite of applications renowned for their ease of use?
NOT!!!!!!!!!
Pathetic is right. You are.
@SteveDork: “The only point of contention is whether an Apple PC is easily replaced by any other PC.”
And they’re not. Which, like most PC users, you’d understand if you had ever actually used one.
Excellent, lets get this straight. If iLife disappeared tomorrow you can’t think of a single way to get the same jobs done?
Personally I beleive anyone who’s serious about any one of those things that iLife does already isn’t using iLife to do it.
Ken the Wanker said “And they’re not. Which, like most PC users, you’d understand if you had ever actually used one.”
Ok, specifics please. What can you do with your Mac that you can’t do with a PC. Please don’t say something like be more loyal to Apple.
Wow, what a tool.
2650 was one project for which I know I still have the references to hand.
There were another 7500 seats done in around five or six projects.
As for touting unreleased products, one word: VISTA. I was merely providing proof that Apple continues to attract ISVs, they already have IMSI and numerous other CAD products, now they’re going to have another CAE product. Whereas your camp is actually trying to sell the benefits of VISTA when it hasn’t even got a solid shipping date and is probably some nine months from delivery at the very minimum.
Don’t disagree, but now we’re apparently requiring 18 months, a desire to do it, and the budget, not just a trivial swap. Whereas a vendor can stop buying Dells one day and start buying HPs the next with very few issues.
Which I believe was the original point of the article. Dell could – indeed should – disappear from view in around five years, it has not one single unique selling proposition. And indeed HP could take their slack, as could your smarter elder brother (I’m assuming your still not of an age where you can use a soldering iron without a supervising adult). Or the company could be smart and buy a Mac, get all of the benefits of that platform and still have access to Windows. Which is a unique selling proposition. If you don’t understand that concept, go take Marketing 101 or whatever. And you still haven’t answered my question: If Dell are so good at what they do, why is their market value sliding so precipitously.
The only person who put up the ‘straw man’ Windows systems disappearing overnight argument was you. So, given the fact that (sadly) it won’t disappear overnight, the realistic argument is that it would take a major enterprise 18 months to move from Windows to Mac just as it took the corporate I mentioned previously around 18 months to move from Mac to Windows. Curiously it also cost several hundred million dollars globally, and it probably never generated the much vaunted savings given that support staff had to be increased in every site – one site in West London went from a team of twenty to well over one hundred. And where there was a second-line team of two servicing the needs of over 1000 Mac users, suddenly there was a team of twelve supporting 2000 users, plus a first-line that went from two to around ten. Sounds like a bargain to me.
BTW, coming from a country where George W Bush can be President (so long as Dick tells him its OK), I would be careful about making comments about high bars if I were you. How are your Enron shares? Or your Worldcom shares? Obviously, if being a lying, cheating scumbag carried some form of award, Messrs. Lay and Ebbers would be the best in the world. But then the bar in your country is so low.
“but I can’t run Mac OS, so – as a computing Swiss Army Knife – the Macintosh wins again.”
As you rightly state all the other things except Mac OS X can be done on a Windows box, and somebody supplies equivalents of all the technologies you mention for WinTel PCs.
You’re premising this “Swiss army knifeness” on a NEED to run Mac OS for something. Which I thought we had established does not exist.
You seem to be zeroing in on Windows boxes, and Microsoft software but the original point was that if Apple disappear, people could migrate to technology from SOMEONE else which would suit their needs.
@ SteveJack >
I’ll ask you a question here, because – to be frank – I can’t be bothered to look.
I’ve looked at Sonic’s site and I can see consumer level tools which allow me to play with DV and make DVDs, but I can’t find a consumer level (under $100) tool that allows me to do the same thing for HDV without going to a professional product. And the same applies to Adobe.
So, where is the consumer-level tool from any Windows ISV (or Microsoft itself) that allows for the import and editing of HDV and then a subsequent export to either HD-DVD or BluRay. The reason I ask is that iLife 06 can do this now and is merely awaiting the arrival of HD drives and media (you can still save the HD image on a hard drive and open it in DVD Player). If you can answer this question for less than $100.00 for up to five machines, you can live to fight another day and I’ll go and find another argument.
SteveJack I’m gonna drug you and rape you and dump your body, just like me and my boyfriend did to my sister and all those other bitches.
SteveJack: Excellent, lets get this straight. If iLife disappeared tomorrow you can’t think of a single way to get the same jobs done?
[Sigh] Your inability to read is getting tiring. Plus, you keep changing the criteria. Now it’s just “a single way”, rather than how much EASIER it is on a Mac. But anyway, my answer again:
“Perfectly acceptable” is somehow equal to an award-winning suite of applications renowned for their ease of use?
Again, you’ve never used a Mac. You’ve merely read about them or heard tales from other non-Mac-using PC users.
Best of luck to you.
“Ok, specifics please. What can you do with your Mac that you can’t do with a PC.”
Ummmm, many examples have been listed. You just don’t want to acknowledge them.
Here’s one from up there:
“As one example, color correction, matching, and consistency (crusial to effective Photoshop use) are much, much harder to achieve (some say nearly impossible) on a PC than on a Mac. That’s not a subjective datapoint.”
Now, please SteveJackIsOnSpaceCookies, IGNORE IT like you’ve done with all the rest!!!!
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“one word: VISTA”
News Flash: Most Windows XP users are not sitting around wishing they had Vista. It’ll get here when it gets here and won’t change our lives.
“it has not one single unique selling proposition”
Again that fixation with a company having to have a “unique product” to survive. What is unique about Dell is their execution.
“Which is a unique selling proposition. If you don’t understand that concept, go take Marketing 101”
If you had any marketing in your background you’d understand that the product is only one part of the mix.
“If Dell are so good at what they do, why is their market value sliding so precipitously.”
To get into that with you would be like trying to pour a quart into a pint jug. Suffice to say those that just look at instantaneous market cap when valuing stocks are not very smart.
“BTW, coming from a country where George W Bush can be President”
Trust me, we laugh at him where I’m from too. The funny thing is that your Prime Minister and transitively your whole country are his bitches.
Which I thought we had established does not exist.
No, I think you’ll find you’re still making a case. As a previous respondent said, Photoshop is still better on a Mac than on a PC, and I’m relatively certain that if you’re using Shake, Windows isn’t an option.
BTW, from what I can tell, in the world of bioinformatics, the Macintosh appears to be a popular platform with many of the vendors producing Mac-only software, so I’m pretty certain that there are a whole sub-culture who woudn’t agree with your premise.
And just to round off, before I go and make dinner, a conversation with a former colleague has confirmed a rumour that I heard about a former client. Having paid a fortune – post -Windows migration – to customise and implement a Windows-based replacement for their specialist core sampling and analysis program, they ultimately had to return to the Macintosh for that app because the Windows solution was simply too unreliable and they were occasionally losing days of data.
So maybe you’re wrong about it being so easy to replace a Mac with Windows.
“As one example, color correction, matching, and consistency (crusial to effective Photoshop use) are much, much harder to achieve (some say nearly impossible) on a PC than on a Mac. That’s not a subjective datapoint.”
1) Most people don’t care.
2) For those that do, go buy one of Colorvision’s products, unless you have some exacting requirements, they’ll work just fine.
“rather than how much EASIER it is on a “
Assume for a minute I mean in all cases it’s as easy, that’s just implied by the fact that something’s an acceptable substitute.
“bioinformatics” – Linux.
“core sampling and analysis program,”
And CAD/CAM isn’t mainstream…. Shesh.
Probably employed British software engineers.
SteveTool >
It’s not instantaneous, it’s a fucking 15-month observation. So don’t be a twat. And if I wanted to go further and compare Dell to Apple, IBM and HP as far back as nine years ago, Apple would still be the better investment.
Execution is not a USP. The only unique they had was delivering a BTO product at a competitive price, Now they don’t. Apple does it. HP does it. Their customer care sucks which completely negates the price advantage. Or are you going to say that customer care doesn’t matter. Or selling a product that spontaneously turns into a barbecue is a good thing.
In my twenties, I worked for a marketing services agency so I’m pretty clear on what constitutes a USP. Dell’s USP was price and configuration. Now it’s just price and that’s not a defensible position.
And just to clarify: if Vista won’t be a paradigm-shifting, life-enhancing experience and people aren’t sitting there on the edge of their seat, then Dell, HP et al are in even worse shape than we imagine given that they’re relying on it to kick start a new wave of PC purchasing. So, your position is – by implication – that if hundreds of millions ditch their old Windows XP boxes for Vista or even just pay for the upgrade, they’re paying several hundred bucks for something with no appeal which surely makes Windows customers idiots, which would explain why they’re too incompetent to configure the security for their own machines.
Hey, everybody, let’s just ignore this SteveJack fellow…. he’s just a time waster. He twists his arguments to win a point, his facts are wrong, and he’s just sooo fanatically in love with Windows… and he just keeps posting reply after useless reply.
Reminds me of those nuisance pop-up windows viruses you get on a PC, everytime you close one another one pops up.
The only solution is to shut down. Let’s just ignore him and move on. (He’ll probably reply to this too… he just can’t stand to lose and argument! But too bad I’m not going to reply.)
Your argument mate.
If you think it’s difficult making things without CNC control, it’s even harder without oil or gas.
Actually, its probably not the fact that they were British programmers as much as the fact that they were being asked to work with a sub-standard platform. Maybe working with Windows makes you stupid. Maybe that’s why people don’t seem to be able to configure their security properly.
But if the fault is with a British programming team, how does that explain why Vista, with an American programming team of several thousand and with the cream of American management (or Dances with Monkeys, as I prefer to call it) will be four years late whilst Apple will deliver its fourth major OS upgrade since August 2002 using a team of only around three hundred developers.
The only common link is Windows: shout it from the rooftops, Windows can adversely affect your intelligence.
Hmmm, it all makes sense now.
“If you think it’s difficult making things without CNC control, it’s even harder without oil or gas.”
Not Exactly, not everybody would be affected because only the dumbasses who built that software for a Mac platform in the first place would be affected. Those already running their custom apps on other Unix systems or Windows would be just fine.
But most CAD/CAM work is not done on Apples, nor could it be.
“fourth major OS upgrade”
Tweak a few apps, add a few little features, few minor changes here and there, here’s an OS upgrade. Sure. Amazing what passes for a “major” upgrade these days.
“It’s not instantaneous, it’s a fucking 15-month observation. So don’t be a twat.”
Even over 15 months, the wrong thing to be looking at.
“he just can’t stand to lose and argument! “
You have no argument in what you posted, just a bunch of statements that the posts don’t bear out.
what’s to loose, You’re not making an argument for anything.
Yep I love Windows because I couldn’t care less if Microsoft releases Vista or not and don’t think it’ll change my life one way or another, and Love Dell because I couldn’t care less whether they vanish or not.
The most useless reply posted so far is yours. It adds nothing. Absolutely nothing to the discussion.
So, Steve have you found that consumer-level HDV product for Windows yet?
Chop, chop, times-a-wasting.
You haven’t got the time to hang around here, when you should be demonstrating your point.
I wouldn’t mind, but I asked over an hour ago and you still haven’t responded – I might have to get my next customer a Mac because you can’t deliver.
Remember: HDV in, HD out, five legitimate copies for $100, has to have a photo management tool as an equivalent of iPhoto and a GarageBand equivalent. I’ll ignore iWeb as I don’t want to make it difficult for you. I was under the impression this was easy.
BTW, your impression of what constitutes a major OS upgrade is a bit self-defeating.
Your team have been working since the turn of the Millenium and, according to you, will still deliver something insipid and uninspiring and charge a couple of hundred dollars for it. Still, that’s American software developers for you.
“Your team have been working “
When did I say they were “My Team”
My point is that most people can replace a Mac with a PC and not really notice the difference, not that Microsoft is Wonderful.
But in any case, many of the things which are part of “Major OS Upgrades” for Apple have been released as “Free Updates” for Windows. So who’s bending who over on the money side?
Steve >
Lame response – particularly as you can’t prove one single word of it.
You’ve had two hours now to come up with my HDV capable consumer-level video editing software and your wasting your time and mine. Now get along and do some research or I’ll have to claim that you’re an asshat who doesn’t have the commitment to follow an argument.
Like I said, chop-chop.
BTW, I’m amending my brief as I’d like my consumer-level digital lifetstyle suite to be scriptable, either manually using something like AppleScript or using a “point-and-click” programming interface (something like Automator). That shouldn’t be too hard now, should it given that Windows is such a great product with so many thousands of applications (even though 80% of them are shit and 10% of them are games).
Now do hurry up or your friends in the Windows fan-boy community won’t allow to keep playing with them…
Oh, and I’m assuming that the patent application I pointed you to at 9:34am was sufficiently innovative and life-changing for you, given that you’re obviously the arbiter of what is innovative and life-changing and you haven’t posted a smart-ass response in the last seven hours.
“You’ve had two hours now to come up with my HDV capable consumer-level video editing software”
Because if we start arguing features of video editing products, we’ll move away from the main question.
Go ahead. Start the debate. I’ll provide some opening lines
iMovie is better than Avid because… (fill in the blank)
iMovie kicks Premiere’s butt because…. (fill in the blank)
Fact is if Apple vanished, between Adobe, Uled, Avid, Microsoft, Sony and others, between their high end products and low end products, depending on just how serious people are about your desktop video, they’d find something to suit their needs and get on with life.
The work being done by others with direct brain interfaces would seem to have much more potential.
A touchscreen you don’t have to actually touch…. Wow… We had those a few decades ago.
So, we agree that you can’t find an integrated consumer-level digital lifestyle suite that has a scriptable interface and HDV support (in) and HD support (out) at $100 for a five-user Family Pack under Windows XP, so – on that basis – it turns out that iLife is quite difficult to replace as you would have to purchase a separate video editing suite, a DVD creation suite, a photo management package and an audio tool that could produce straight music, soundtracks or podcasts which would probably cost around $500+ and if you want a family pack will probably edge closer to $1000.00
You couldn’t match the integration between the apps
You couldn’t match the features of the apps
You couldn’t match the pricing
So I think the first time you got called by a domestic Mac user wanting to switch to Windows, you’d fail because you’d want him to spend a minimum of $500 on top of his machine.
That’s it, job done, goodnight Vienna.
As for your other point on direct brain interfaces, you truly are a fully functioning idiot. We’re talking 2006, not 2026.
Don’t bother responding, you’re not worth my time or my intellect.
“That’s it, job done, goodnight Vienna.”
The job definition was to find a substitute for iMovie.
And I identified many free or cheap options, almost all vendors of which have a product which costs less than iMovie and some much more sophisticated ones.
So yes Job done.
You’re the one who started adding conditions like must be written by a lesbian black woman with a wooden leg and run on a Mac. i.e a spec so specifically tailored to iMovie.
Anyway, the real question was can you replace a PC with a Mac and provide users with the same functionality, which clearly, given that we can replace iMovie we can.
Anyway that’s the British for you. Not the smartest race.
“As for your other point on direct brain interfaces, you truly are a fully functioning idiot. We’re talking 2006, not 2026.”
Working systems exist today. They seem much more appropriate to the needs of people with disabilities than 20 year old touch screen technology. I doubt they’ll take until 2026 to fully commercialise.
Or what, you didn’t realise such systems actually exist today? I guess it’ll take until Steve Jobs launches it on a Mac, then claims he invented it for you to notice?
No, the job definition – because you’re obviously reading impaired was…
Remember: HDV in, HD out, five legitimate copies for $100, has to have a photo management tool as an equivalent of iPhoto and a GarageBand equivalent. I’ll ignore iWeb as I don’t want to make it difficult for you. I was under the impression this was easy. See my post at 3:19pm. That’s the Americans for you, unable to read understand simple sentences – never the brightest of races, and never appropriately dressed.
BTW, the point of this touch screen is that you don’t touch it. So it’s not a touch screen. And I don’t think that’s been around for 20 years, but obviously you know better because your Dad works at Area 51 and he let you go to work with him and you met an alien and he wasn’t anything like ET, because his name was Gerald.
As for commercialising brain interfaces before 2026, good luck with that. Personally, nobody’s going to stick anything near or on my brain without feeding me a whole bottle of Tequila, whereas I suspect that most people can deal with a touchscreen that accepts gestures, but it works especially well for people with sensory issues (like white finger) or arthritis.
But trust a Windows fanboy to try and over engineer a solution.
“Remember: HDV in, HD out, five legitimate copies for $100, has to have a photo management tool as an equivalent of iPhoto and a GarageBand equivalent. I’ll ignore iWeb as I don’t want to make it difficult for you. I was under the impression this was easy”
Your extra criteria not mine. I’m a happy with a product which costs less and does the same job.
“point of this touch screen is that you don’t touch it. So it’s not a touch screen.”
Actually it is, with an IR proximity sensor. That’s hardly revolutionary or alien spacecraft technology. As I said, the basic technology is over 20 years old. Amazing what you can patent these days.
“Personally, nobody’s going to stick anything near or on my brain without feeding me a whole bottle of Tequila, “
In your case I doubt if there would be much signal to pick up. But done worry, Much like the small sized Condoms which get shipped to the UK, there will likely be a small sized brain sensor as well.
As you no doubt know, one of the technologies is a non intrusive Cap. Im sure you’re just playing with me pretending that you don’t know that.
Thank you for ensuring that the Darwin Awards will continue for years to come. Hopefully, you’re procreating as much as possible.
I’m actually an Linux user who wanted to come into the forum and stir up some trouble, but thank you for being so utterly pigheaded as to forward the simplistic argument of “Apple is not substantively different than Dell is not substantively different than … ” My only consolation is that while I spent two minutes trying to see how long you pursued this folly, you obviously flushed the better part of hours away. I’m sorry to the more informed readers who felt compelled to parry your projectile vomiting excuse for argumentation.
Just one question, were you ever booted from your high school speech and debate team, and now haunt online messageboards trying to relive the glory days of sophomore year?
“forward the simplistic argument of “Apple is not substantively different than Dell is not substantively different than … ”
Again one of those useless posts that adds nothing to the debate and misunderstands the original comment.
The original MDN comment was that Dell could disappear and replacing Dell as a supplier would be easy. My comment was that that is true and the same goes for Apple. And so far nobody’s been able to come up with a reason why that’s not so.
Nor have you.
“Linux user who wanted to come into the forum and stir up some trouble”
Great, while I’m still interested in sombody explaining to me Why a Mac can’t be replaced by a PC (Which by the way includes a PC running Linux if that’s the appropriate choice for the job).
“Thank you for ensuring that the Darwin Awards ” … “Just were you ever booted from your high school speech and debate team”
As to the Darwin comment, we all sprung from the apes, clearly you just didn’t spring far enough. Read what was actually being discussed.
Gee with your comments, I now feel like I’m in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
Replacing a Mac with a PC or a PC with a Mac
Sorry all but this is a pretty silly thread. Both are computers and run programs. One runs every OS you need, the other(s) can’t. This is the main difference.
Second point: there are applications that run only on Macs and others only on PC AND Mac (since a Mac today can run Windows as well).
Malware can run and spread very efficiently only on Windows. Exponential, easy spread is way more difficult on Unix-like platforms.
Being both a Mac and a PC computers the arguments is equivalent – with distinguo – to those claiming it is silly to spend money on a luxurious car as their cheap crap on 4 tires can take them from their jobs downtown to their dormitory crap village on the same road and streets.
Indeed but you miss the point. The real question would be: Can a Mac be substituted with a PC easily and leave the average user as happy and satisfied as before?
You must be blind to think so or never used a Mac seriously before.
This is as well the opinion of all who switched from PC to the Mac that I personally know in my organization. Well over 50 now.
Can you easily take away a Mac from its user and have him or her as happy as before with a PC now? What a ridicule thought!
“One runs every OS you need”
We already established you may Want Mac OS X, but you don’t Need it.
” silly to spend money on a luxurious car “
But what you’re getting is not a luxurious car, it’s one of those kits that tries to make a VW into a Ferrari. Same mechanicals, different packaging.
The owner drives around thinking in his mind he’s in a Ferrari, everyone else sees he’s driving a VW with a different fiberglass body. Mostly they wonder why he even bothered to do the conversion in the first place.
Will that particular owner be less happy if he gets the standard VW back? Probably. Will the performance at any particular “car” task be any different? No.
I can’t believe this thread is still getting posts and SJIOSC is still playing a game where he claims that “we’ve agreed” on something when he’s the only person who’s saying it.
Seriously, you could debate with this guy forever: he’s never going to admit that Apple have ever invented anything life-changing or original (no matter how many patents you show him), he’s never going to change his opinions that there are some things that just work better on a Mac. And he’s never going to concede that adding value to the industry through real innovation (that’s real technical innovation, not finding a way to buy a chipset for 5¢ less) is the way to create a company with long-term value. And he’ll never concede that it takes more “commitment” (financial or manpower) to keep a Windows network compared like-for-like to a Mac-based network, despite all of evidence that says precisely that.
In the words of Oscar Wilde, he’s a man/boy/whatever who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Even worse, he’s labouring under the delusion that if he keeps moving the goalposts of his “debate” (if it can be so described), nobody will notice and we’ll all concede that he’s correct and if Apple went away tomorrow, sixteen million people wouldn’t be inconvenienced because Windows is good enough (the complacent acceptance of dysfunctional mediocrity that is such a trademark of those who worship the cult of Microsoft and their charisma-free monochrome ‘Chief Software Architect’) and their forced migration to Windows won’t be at all painful or expensive.
He does of course fail to appreciate that – if Apple disappeared tomorrow – Microsoft’s past behaviour as an aggressive (criminal) monopolist would undoubtedly resurface (God knows, it’s all thay can do to keep it under control now) which would, in all probability, lead to even lower quality OS software (a frightening thought for anyone relying on Microsoft software in a life-or-death situation), higher licence costs and, ultimately, to a legal showdown that will see the company broken up.
What’s particularly tragic is that – in this person’s head (which appears to be stuck up his own ass) – he’s probably accepted the propaganda that Microsoft has been responsible for all of the innovation in computing. He wouldn’t mind having Microsoft telling him what hardware he can run, what software he can use, collecting information about how he uses his computer whilst controlling how he experiences the future world of entertainment. In short, he probably believes Microsoft is a trustworthy guardian for the future of computing despite the fact that on every major development in IT (plug-and-play, GUI, the adoption of TCP/IP as a networking standard, the Internet, being able to address more than 640KB of memory without using various kludges, the list goes on) they were a day late and a dollar short.
It’s a shame we can’t send him to a parallel universe where Apple never existed, because – no matter how ass-backwards we believe Windows is now – can you imagine what it would be like if Microsoft never had Apple’s work to plagiarise/adapt (delete depending on your POV). Would we be living in a world of DOS 11.0? Would the RS-232c lead be a regular feature in every home in the world. Would anybody have invented the Web? – remember no Apple would mean no NeXT (Tim Berners-Lee’s weapon of choice at the time), would Berners-Lee have even tried to develop what became HTTP/HTML/etc. on a Windows system or even a DOS system?
It’s a shame that SteveJackOffs’ brother didn’t put on one of those extra-large condoms before sleeping with his mother/sister, but that’s the problem of not teaching kids about birth control in school.
“no matter how many patents you show him”
People have showed me one patent, for a touchscreen with an IR proximity sensor. hardly life changing.
“he keeps moving the goalposts of his “debate”
Amazing that you perceive refusing to get drawn down irrelevant blind alleys and staying focused on the original premise as “moving the goalposts”. Moving them yes, but back from where other people tried to take them.
“worship the cult of Microsoft “
yes with comments like:
News Flash: Most Windows XP users are not sitting around wishing they had Vista. It’ll get here when it gets here and won’t change our lives.
And to paraphrase “nobody could care less if Dell vanished”
Oh yes, worshiping, hear that praise, I think Microsoft plans to use my Vista comments in their next ad campaign “Buy Vista, you don’t really need it, and it won’t change your life…”. Yep Right. Worship.
“Microsoft’s past behaviour as an aggressive (criminal) monopolist would undoubtedly resurface”
Don’t doubt it, but that’s not my point. However I believe Apple vanishing would put more scrutiny on Microsoft, not less. See my initial comment, Microsoft’s antitrust guys must just Love Apple for the press it generates about being a viable alternative for Windows, they’d be one of the saddest groups if Apple vanished.
“accepted the propaganda that Microsoft has been responsible for all of the innovation in computing.”
No I haven’t and nor have I accepted the propaganda that all innovation in computing flies out of Steve Jobs Ass.
What I do accept is that most of the “Innovations” in computing come from people other than Apple or Microsoft, and most of the Innovations that many people attribute to Apple were actually invented by someone else, they were just sufficiently ignorant of the origins that they saw the idea for the first time when Steve Jobs started selling it, so thought Apple invented it.
“He wouldn’t mind having Microsoft telling him what hardware he can run, what software he can use”
Again, where with thinking this is a Microsoft love fest. I have products from Apple, ones that run Linux, Ones that run other Unix variants, ones that run Windows CE and ones that run a host of other O/S’s which I use in my daily life. ah yes, and some that run Windows too.
“Microsoft never had Apple’s work to plagiarise/adapt”
We’d be in real shit with respect to Gui’s if neither had Xerox’s work to “Inspire” them. But really, do you think if Apple vanished all GUI work by Unix vendors and Microsoft would stop? I don’t.
“TCP/IP”
I’d credit DOD’s standardisation on TCP/IP in the early 80’s for military contracts, as being a much more significant driver in this area than Apple. Client implementations on desktops just ratified what was already happening in the minicomputer space. and there were a LOT of different 3rd party TCP/IP implementations for DOS/Windows before Microsoft finally integrated a robust stack into the O/S and I’m pretty sure they pre-date Apple’s building one in. So yes, you can have the technology without waiting around for Microsoft to implement it.
“would Berners-Lee have even tried to develop what became HTTP/HTML/etc. on a Windows system or even a DOS system”
If not Windows, he would have used any other Unix box, almost all Unix workstations had windowing GUIs by the 90’s.
As I said, you’re overestimating Apple’s contribution to the world. All the things you mentioned other people invented, Apple just used. That’s the same criticism being levelled at Dell.
And when it comes back to it, even for the sake of argument if we accepted as 100% true your assertion that Apple is the source of all innovation, that every idea in the PC space comes from Apple and even if we accepted that Microsoft would make no forward progress unless Apple sent them a memo as to how to do it, none of it bears on the question as to whether TODAY you can replace an Apple system, continue doing everything you were doing on your Apple with a PC and get on with life.
That’s the question being discussed, and clearly the answer is yes, you can.
“iLife 06 can do this now and is merely awaiting the arrival of HD drives and media (you can still save the HD image on a hard drive and open it in DVD Player). “
Or you can buy a Sony laptop and and start burning Blu-Ray Disks today. Sure it’s expensive, but market leading products usually are. I guess Apple will get around to shipping HD-DVD and Blu-Ray drives sooner or later.
Actually, reading through this is thread is hilarious because the various arguments are – to varying degrees – wildly off the mark.
SJIOSC’s current arguments appear to be as follows: –
1) You may WANT Mac OS X, but you don’t need it (presumably because Windows – the brain-damaged OS of choice for people with no taste – is ‘just good enough’ to take up the slack). What he fails to understand is that, for most Mac users, their choice is that they simply DON’T WANT Windows and that, in a (growing) and significant number of cases, that choice is made based on a history of having used Windows and found it wanting (security, stability, ease-of-configuration, ease-of-use, etc.).
Furthermore, unlike in a corporate setting (the market which distorts Windows’ ‘popularity’), most Mac users are either domestic or SoHo in nature – their ‘choice’ of computer is genuinely their ‘choice’, whereas for the millions of knowledge workers who are forced to live a life of subjugation to Windows and, by implication, their IT support staff have merely had this fourth-rate operating system foisted on them by an unholy alliance of empire-building (and intellectually lazy) CIOs, one-quarter-at-a-time CFOs and mind-bogglingly ignorant purchasing managers.
2) In his post at 6:59pm yesterday, SJIOSC argues…
“But what you’re getting is not a luxurious car, it’s one of those kits that tries to make a VW into a Ferrari. Same mechanicals, different packaging.
The owner drives around thinking in his mind he’s in a Ferrari, everyone else sees he’s driving a VW with a different fiberglass body. Mostly they wonder why he even bothered to do the conversion in the first place.
Will that particular owner be less happy if he gets the standard VW back? Probably. Will the performance at any particular “car” task be any different? No.”
This is a relatively superficial analysis of what constitutes a Macintosh.
The Mac isn’t just the nice design on top of Intel mechanicals – it’s a whole integrated computing experience that is designed to be usable from the get-go by ordinary mortals (who don’t need to computer security experts) as well geekoids. Now, SJIOSC will – of course – say that this position is nonsense and Windows is also all of those things (which is probably 80-90% true), but it’s all a question of degree.
As an example, I’ve recently discovered the joy of installing ShadowBook and VirtueDesktop on my relatively old 17″ PowerBook simply for the fun (and not life-changing) capability of being able to wave at the right-hand side of my PowerBook and for it to change desktop. Now, ignoring the fact that ShadowBook uses far too much CPU on this machine, this amusing little app is made possible by the fact that Apple controls a complete product in both hardware and software terms and publishes the method by which the Ambient Light Sensor works.
Could I have this function on a Dell or a Sony? Only if their R&D function (Dell, R&D – two elements that are rarely seen on the same sentence) implement the hardware and write a complete driver set for it which may or may not be compromised by or conflict with a future Microsoft development or, more likely, the development of some other ISV or OEM.
A trivial example I know, but merely the tip of the iceberg and I’m sure I could offer more examples if I wanted like the fact that iSight output is available to all applications at an OS level (such as Delicious Library) rather than just being a simple webcam.
3) His argument with MCCFR about non-contact touch panels is hilarious: ignoring the fact that MCCFR is wrong and non-contact panels have existed for some while, the key points of interest about the patent is the ability to accept ‘gestural input’ and to display the result in the same screen. Also it would appear that Apple’s patent also implements a sort of pressure sensitivity based on the velocity of some gestures. If all of that already exists then Apple would be nuts to file a patent that will ultimately be challened and lose, but maybe SJIOSC can actually post a URL for a product where that functionality is already available as opposed to slinging brickbats.
As for wearing ‘non-intrusive’ skull caps, that sounds like an attractive option – shall I wear something that will make me look like a geek Frankenstein or shall I just go for technology that allows me to point and gesture? Of course, SJIOSC has already demonstrated that he has no concern for a user/customer’s wants, but only their needs (he’d have been a great member of the Politburo in Soviet-era Russia) – it doesn’t matter that the solution is ugly so long as it’s cheap and functional.
4) It’s an example of how pathetic this debate is when neither side can concede any ground: it doesn’t help when people don’t admit they’re flat out wrong and start chucking xenophobic crap that’s worthy of a schoolyard around.
SJIOSC could make a start here and try and explain why Microsoft have been unable to implement the security that Mac OS users take for granted within the OS, as opposed to requiring customers (many of whom have no computing experience) to choose, purchase, implement and maintain a hotch-potch of security products as a ‘tax’ on their original purchase. After all, if he wants us to accept that Windows is a worthy alternative to a Macintosh he should be able to address our concerns in a constructive manner; if not – he’s just a troll.
“As for wearing ‘non-intrusive’ skull caps, that sounds like an attractive option – shall I wear something that will make me look like a geek Frankenstein “
It was raised in the context of people with disabilities. Would a quadriplegic likely accept this kind of technology to walk again? I think so.
Will it eventually become unobtrusive? Sure. Or will it be built into a baseball cap you have to put on backwards? That would really make people look stupid.
“ability to accept ‘gestural input’ and to display the result in the same screen.”
IR sensing of a finger was used by HP in the 80’s. Pressure sensitive tablets and touchscreens have been around forever, and interpretation of gestures on a touchscreen has been used by every major pen input system ever devised from Go to Palm to Microsoft’s work. So excuse me if I don’t see the “Uniqueness” of this patent. Frankly it was a really BAD one to choose as an example of innovation.
“Apple would be nuts to file a patent that will ultimately be challenged and lose, “
The trend today is get the patent first then let people decide if they will challenge it. Then you have the option, litigate or bail out. contrary to your statement, filing broad patents that conceivably could be overturned is standard industry practice. Overturning a patent can be a difficult and expensive process even if it is meritless.
“neither side can concede any ground”
I’m not sure what more you’d like me to concede about Microsoft, Vista or Dell…
“hotch-potch of security products “
Constructively: XP SP2, Norton Antivirus. turn on the firewall, turn on automatic updates for all products (Which Windows and Norton will basically nag you until you do). Job done, no magic, no mystery.
Both Come standard already on so many PCs. For most Windows users viruses are a complete non issue. We learned how to deal with them years ago. Does it cost you $19 to $29 per year, sure. Do they affect your daily life? No. Anyway, if you hate Windows, run Linux. heck, run Windows under Linux if you want.
“Could I have this function on a Dell or a Sony? Only if their R&D function (Dell, R&D – two elements that are rarely seen on the same sentence) implement the hardware and write a complete driver set for it which may or may not be compromised by or conflict with a future Microsoft development or, more likely, the development of some other ISV or OEM.”
Clearly you’ve never seen all the goofball ways people have devised to control Windows PCs. I don’t see than any of the things you mention are precondition to implementing the same kind of things on a Windows box.
” iSight output is available to all applications at an OS level”
What, you think any App on the PC can’t use the webcam and that system level APIs don’t exist to do that? OK, you are deluded.
“It’s a shame that SteveJackOffs’ brother didn’t put on one of those extra-large condoms before sleeping with his mother/sister, but that’s the problem of not teaching kids about birth control in school.
“
All good points which really help to move the discussion forward. You’re so smart. I wish I was You.
Actually, a former colleague of mine had one of those HP machines and it was absolutely useless. Quite often inaccurate when he was using Cardfile or whatever it was called, he finally had to dump the machine when the IR emitter sub-system, which I seem to remember were scattered around the circumference of the screen, finally gave up the ghost.
Anyhoo…
It’s interesting that you address the periphery of my points without addressing the key elements: you specifically said that Windows security is easy for anyone competent to set up and maintain, and now you’ve limited that to people who have Windows XP SP2. What about the people who can’t download SP2 because they’re on dial-up only – they do exist all over the world.
What about those lucky people who still run Windows 98 or, God forbid, ME. Presumably, your customer-focussed response would be “Go and get a new machine” or “Get a CD from someone”; the former assumes that someone has the funds to do so, and the latter assumes that someone knows that Windows XP SP2 exists. But thanks for playing anyway.
And if you all learned how to deal with viruses years ago, along with all the spyware and the adware, how come services like MessageLabs exist? When you say “deal with them”, what you mean is “pay any number of small incremental charges so that they cease being a problem for that period” – they don’t go away forever, because there’s always someone who lets their Norton/McAfee subscription lapse or assumes that because they’ve got a firewall that they’re safe. Just like there are people who think that just because they have put an identifiable word into their WEP security that their wireless network can’t be hacked.
If you all learned how to deal with this crap, why am I still getting spam from what are so obviously spam bots. Is the OS at fault or the customers? According to you, it’s the customers which is odd because I think the state of Texas might tend to disagree.
Or are you saying that OS level security is over-rated and unnecessary, surely that’s one of the reasons to upgrade to Vista, except we already know that Vista’s been compromised – so after five elapsed years, and literally tens of thousands of man-years of effort and millions of dollars, all we’ve got is a pig wearing a particularly unflattering shade of lipstick. As it happens, you’ll also need to get a bigger pig pen and you’ll still have to buy antibiotics for the pig.
On another point, your response to MCCFR’s BluRay thing is only a relatively recent thing and you probably would have expected Sony to implement a BluRay drive before anyone else, but to compare the bundled DVGate software to iMovie/iDVD is like comparing a Quarter Pounder to a fillet steak, and trying to get anything better starts costing real money.
BTW, looking back, you have no right to get sniffy about the incest/condoms thing seeing as you appear to have let that genie out of the bottle with that pathetic jibe about small condoms going to the UK – what you sow so shall ye reap.
As a humorous aside, I’ve seen the most goofball way that people interact with their PC; I seem to remember it was called Windows
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SJIOSC,
When I asked for a URL of where that functionality exists in a shipping product, I did actually mean all of the functionality in a single shipping product.
Non-contact touch panels do exist – conceded
Gestural input – conceded, although I think you’ll find Newton’s system predates Palm’s bought-in Graffiti by several years.
However a non-contact touch-panel that can understand gestural input as well as somehow understand the amount of ‘pressure’ that is to be applied simply doesn’t appear to exist in a computing environment, and – unless you can point me at a shipping product – I have to assume that you’re blowing smoke.
SJIOSC,
I’ve just noticed that you’re now saying that – if I don’t trust Windows (which I don’t) – maybe I could run it within Linux or maybe just run Linux.
So now what you’re proposing is that I should take my nice clean stable secure OS with its well integrated hardware and software and replace it with some mutant combination of hardware developed to the lowest cost possible, a host operating system that certainly isn’t ready for prime time usage by computing newbies, and a guest operating system that is more full of holes than a road in Southern Lebanon.
You’re beginning to scare me. And not in a nice way.
The Mac experience comes from the marriage of the hw and the OS.
“One runs every OS you need”
We already established you may Want Mac OS X, but you don’t Need it.
Define “Need”
Do you need to do tasks that cannot be done elsewhere? No
Do you need to enjoying doing those tasks easily, effortlessly? Yes
Do you need it to look at your computer and see an efficient, valid, trustworthy tool that actually saves you time? Definitely
Would you get all the above with Windows? Nope.
One thing that for me is absolutely only achievable on OS X and nowhere else, not even Linux. Lunch a task using remote volumes and libraries for data and linkage and not having to wait for it to finish before going home: I just close the screen, go home, knowing that once there, I just need to open the screen and not losing a bit.
Do that with Linux and Windows and you have lost hours of work.
So it is very simple: I could not get this anywhere else than on OS X, hence I do need 100% it and if I was to put Linux or Windows of my MacBook I’ll have a miserable life seeing my colleagues on OS X going home while I am stuck at the lab because the other crapOS do not allow me to dynamically recover a networked configuration from home without rebooting.
Life changing feature? You BET!
@ iPodder >
Please don’t use that kind of logic on SteveJack… because a) it still won’t work and b) he’s stuck in his little world of Windows mediocrity. I suspect that the only Apple product this guy has is an iPod, because he certainly knows nothing about the Macintosh.
He’s just going to tell you that you’re going down a blind alley, because – in all honesty – he doesn’t have an argument that he can make.
He’s as good as said that Vista will not be that big an advance on XP, and yet Microsoft have been working on it for years and still keep taking bits out because they know they can’t deliver. So what he believes is that you can replace a modern, well written operating system that has delivered significant performance and functionality upgrades with each release with a piece of crap that is evolving with all the pace of Continental Drift.
However, because he’s terminally confused, he seems to think that Microsoft is one of the parties driving change in the PC marketplace. How you can drive change whilst not delivering any significant changes to your main desktop product in five years is beyond my feeble brain, but then – because I’m British – I’m apparently very stupid and have a small penis. Gives you an idea of the level of this fsckwit’s mentality that he can dish it out, but doesn’t seem to like it being aimed back at him.
MCCFR, totally agree with you. Till you use it seriously you simply can’t believe it could be that much better. Invariably the comment from all the switchers: they all came back with a comment as “I truly believed you Mac guys were just exaggerating”, “I wished I had done that before”, etc.
Anyway, the above behavior (dynamic reconnect networked volumes and dynamic restart of services and daemons – implying knowing their dependencies – ) is something you can’t have on Windows nor on Linux.
On those systems invariably you lose work, get a crash, hang the system or loose unrecoverably the networked volumes. In all cases the machine needs a reboot and the researcher has lost hours of computations and/or builds.
It changes life and no one would move back to inefficient networking handling. The Mac OS X IOKit object oriented layer is a marvel. It makes for the first time to have a truly portable, mobile Unix platform.
For people just using a computer for FPS games this is nonsense and meaningless. For people doing serious work is being in heaven. If he was to ask them to switch back to Windows or Linux for their laptops he would receive one single answer ” Are you frigging idiot? “
PS
MacBooks are now by FAR the most popular machine around. The environment makes for some 6000 heads working here.
For people just using a computer for FPS games this is nonsense and meaningless. For people doing serious work is being in heaven. If he was to ask them to switch back to Windows or Linux for their laptops he would receive one single answer ” Are you frigging idiot? “
Isn’t that remarkable? Windows users for years have bashed the Mac for being a toy computer because it lacked games and nowadays more and more one realizes that Windows PCs are just expensive toys capable of excelling just at games. Serious jobs on them get undermined and crippled.
Truly a contrappasso law on toy Windows PCs for wannabee geeks FPS shooters to upgrade their machines to get one more fps for their FPS games.
How ridicule.
On those systems invariably you lose work, get a crash, hang the system or loose unrecoverably the networked volumes. In all cases the machine needs a reboot and the researcher has lost hours of computations and/or builds.
According to SteveJerk, these people are not using their systems properly and are incompetent. A sizeable number are also probably British and therefore even more stupid.
Please note that under no circumstances can the loss of work be attributed to flaws in Windows: it is so good in its current state that a) all computing work in the universe can be executed on it, b) migration to Vista will be unnecessary and c) it will increase the productivity of your environment.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
This should be Steve’s motto: you will use Windows until you’re happy with it. Of course, by happy, I mean “willing to tolerate without whimpering into a soggy blanket”.
Just out of interest, where has Steve gone?
It’s been seven hours since his last post – I’m beginning to miss the boy.
“Actually, a former colleague of mine had one of those HP machines”
Guess what, the’ve come a long way over those 20 years. A large number of the ATM machines in service use this type of technology because it can handle the abuse of being outside in the wind/rain/snow, whatever.
“What about the people who can’t download SP2 because they’re on dial-up only – they do exist all over the world.”
1) You buy a new machine, it has SP2 already installed.
2) You buy the upgrade disks today, they include SP2.
3) You ask Microsoft, they send you SP2 on a CD.
“What about those lucky people who still run Windows 98 or, God forbid, ME.”
You really want to talk about 8yr old operating systems, OK, I’ll bite. The Mac equivalent is OS at that point is OS 9. How does an OS 9 customer run all his OS 9 Apps on his nice new Intel Mac? Answer, in case you don’t know, he doesn’t. He goes out and buys new ones. Ouch!. I bet that’s more than the $99 cost of the XP SP2 upgrade.
“But thanks for playing anyway.”
Yep, seems like the OS9 Option is MUCH better. Go Apple!
“a problem for that period” – they don’t go away forever, because there’s always someone who lets their Norton/McAfee subscription lapse”
Yep, well I’m hardly going to hold Microsoft responsible for that. That’s like holding GM responsible if you don’t put your seatbelt on and crash and get hurt.
“Or are you saying that OS level security is over-rated and unnecessary”
No, it’s a good thing, but today it’s just one line of defense. What I am saying is any issues with current Widows versions are not a major practical issue if you take the right precautions.
“ probably would have expected Sony to implement a BluRay drive before anyone else,”
No as an Apple customer I would expect Apple to implement everything before anyone else.
“but to compare the bundled DVGate software”
Yes you get DVGate, Ulead and Premiere bundled and of course the Infamous Windows Movie Maker. Take your pick. If they’re not good enough for your needs, perhaps you do need to be spending money on semi-pro software.
“Quarter Pounder to a fillet steak”
In the case of the Blu-ray drive it’s like comparing a Sony lobster and steak meal to not eating anything, and not going to be given anything to eat for some time. In one notebook you have the drive and can create Blu-Ray movies, with the other you can toss off and dream about the day you’ll be able to.
“BTW, looking back, you have no right to get sniffy about the incest/condoms thing”
Don’t worry, I’m not upset, just pointing out how totally useless that post was.
“As a humorous aside, I’ve seen the most goofball way that people interact with their PC; I seem to remember it was called Windows “
Now that IS a funny reply…
“When I asked for a URL of where that functionality exists in a shipping product, I did actually mean all of the functionality in a single shipping product.”
Given that the patent describes several different ways of doing things 1) using a standard touch screen 2) Using an IR proximity sensor coupled with a standard touch screen 3) using a capacitive proximity sensor coupled with a standard touch screen and a force sensor in the case for the “pressure” component, I doubt any one product would ever implement the whole contents of the patent.
However IR touch screens are in common usage, standard capacitive and resistive touch screens are in common usage, proximity sensing capacitive touch screens have been shipping for several years, pen based touch screens with proximity sensors for over a decade, this is really a “catch all” patent bundling together a bunch of existing technologies and claiming some “uniqueness”. See http://www.elo.com these guys have been in business forever supplying these kinds of things.
And the idea that popping up a control on a screen when you touch or get close is an “innovation” rather than something completely obvious, Please….
“However a non-contact touch-panel that can understand gestural input as well as somehow understand the amount of ‘pressure’ that is to be applied”
Read the patent: they suggest they would be doing that with a proximity sensor coupled with a standard touch screen and force sensor. Nothing magic there.
“I’ve just noticed that you’re now saying that – if I don’t trust Windows (which I don’t) – maybe I could run it within Linux or maybe just run Linux.”
Yep, whatever you prefer.
“Do you need to do tasks that cannot be done elsewhere? No”
FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY. That’s my point.
“One thing that for me is absolutely only achievable on OS X and nowhere else, not even Linux. Lunch a task using remote volumes and libraries for data and linkage and not having to wait for it to finish before going home: I just close the screen, go home, knowing that once there, I just need to open the screen and not losing a bit.”
NFS with it’s stateless protocol has been able to do this kind of thing forever. Windows has too. More likely your App is not responding appropriately to suspend/resume messages to know what to do. Sounds like an App problem not an OS problem.
“because I’m British – I’m apparently very stupid and have a small penis.”
Sounds like a pretty fair summary, yes.
“Anyway, the above behavior (dynamic reconnect networked volumes and dynamic restart of services and daemons – implying knowing their dependencies – ) is something you can’t have on Windows nor on Linux.”
Maybe on Planet Mac these features don’t exist in Windows or Linux. In the real world, they do.
For the above that would be http://www.elotouch.com
You know, you guys are jerks. You don’t know how hard it is to run a business. And it’s not right to hurt other people’s feelings you know. I don’t go around saying you’re a crappy person and screwed up Apple. But you guys hurt my feelings all the time.
Really. It hurts.
At least my friend Enderle, hasn’t left me. HE respects me. You guys are all just STUPID.
That’s right, Gil! BF4EVER!
Zune: And don’t forget me! I wuv you Gil.
Oh, I could never forget YOU little Zuney!!!
Let’s go play outside together.
NFS with it’s stateless protocol has been able to do this kind of thing forever. Windows has too. More likely your App is not responding appropriately to suspend/resume messages to know what to do. Sounds like an App problem not an OS problem.
NFS is not an issue. Not everything is an NFS networked volume. Ever heard of GRID computing?
App? You mean “application” ?
ROFLMAO, he said application. Who told you the problem happens with *an* application. You truly think in a limited way.
Let’s say more tasks sent on distributed computing, some on NorduGRID, some on EGEE, others on GRID networks in the US, distributed compilation and concurrent multi-applications environment.
Oh my, “an application”.
Thanks Stevie, it truly shows this thread is a waste of time. Go back to play with your FPS game. We’ll stay on OS X. It is a change of life wrt Windows and Linux.
“Do you need to do tasks that cannot be done elsewhere? No”
FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY. That’s my point.
Nope, your point is that people could to those tasks elsewhere without regretting the change. Which IS the point other people tried to make.
Who cares if you could do the same tasks in other OS as in OS X when in those other OSes it is a pain to achieve the same results while on OS X it is a breeze?
The problem with your point is that IT IS IRRELEVANT you could achieve the same tasks elsewhere. The issue is how flawlessly, easily, painlessly and efficiently you get those tasks.
You do not NEED an hammer to stick a nail into a wall. You could use your head.
You do not NEED an chainsaw to cut a tree, you could use a knife.
You do not NEED Mac OS X, you could use Windows.
This is your point and frankly it is simplistic and risible as the first two, which are both true by the way.
Maybe on Planet Mac these features don’t exist in Windows or Linux. In the real world, they do.
Nope, they don’t and you must know it. Hence, either you are a liar or plain ignorant. What? Only used a desktop connected to the network that never needed reconfiguration?
Nor Windows nor Linux are able to stand an abrupt disconnection off the network and reconnection on different LAN/WAN configuration without suffering big time disruptions.
In particular, when you change network configuration on Windows needs a reboot every time.
Your reply, at least for me, ends the discussion. You do not know what you are talking about.
Adios
iPodder, given that your post was barely literate and not in proper English, it’s hard to understand exactly what you were getting at (or in fact are getting at).
Can you try to explain a little better?
“In particular, when you change network configuration on Windows needs a reboot every time.”
What version are you using? Windows 3.1? You’ve just got to be kidding, Right?
“Who cares if you could do the same tasks in other OS as in OS X when in those other OSes it is a pain to achieve the same results while on OS X it is a breeze?
“
The point is that that’s not actually a real statement of the way it is. It may be your perception, but your perception does not match reality. The difference is insignificant.
“You do not NEED an hammer to stick a nail into a wall. You could use your head.
You do not NEED an chainsaw to cut a tree, you could use a knife.
“
So if the Hammer is Photoshop for Mac, is your head Photoshop for Windows?
If the Chainsaw is Office for Mac, is the Knife Office for Windows?
Your analogies just don’t add up.
“In particular, when you change network configuration on Windows needs a reboot every time.”
I mean that’s so funny, could you be more ignorant?
“In particular, when you change network configuration on Windows needs a reboot every time.”
Sorry, still can’t get over it. It’s still really funny that you think that.
“In particular, when you change network configuration on Windows needs a reboot every time.”
laughing at you still…
Stevie, again, you do not know what you are talking about.
Ask anyone if they are using Windows for GRID applications. Then just hear the laughs.
So long silly buddy. Keep laughing. By the way, how many Windows supercomputers do run Windows on the Top500?
Ahh. you guessed. They can’t stand an OS that needs to reboot so often it is laughable.
“In particular, when you change network configuration on Windows needs a reboot every time.”
Oh geez it’s still just too funny. Still laughing. Make it Stop, please please stop posting.
Windows runs on 2 supercomputers in the top 500.
Mac OS X runs on 5 supercomputers in the top 500.
Dell Has 22 in the top 500
There are 367 Linux supercomputers in the top 500.
I think the Win goes to x86 hardware running Linux (which I noted you can pick if it’s right for your application), what do you think?
Still laughing…
“In particular, when you change network configuration on Windows needs a reboot every time.”
It’s STILL Funny, oh iPodder you expert you. Get back in your cage, try not to fling dung at the tourists.
The funny thing is that – as with all trolls – you never even tried what you spout about.
And with all trolls it is a waste of time to discuss with you. Why don’t you try it for yourself simpleton. The issue is NOT just changing network configuration while doing nothing, but while the machine is fully working, lobster.
And not with single silly applications: Office! Plleeeeeeaaassse. Are you that stupid or you just troll it?
Windows cannot recover the work, period. And it is not me saying it, it is the Windows users who switched, and it is a multi-million dollars enterprise, not Photoshop or, ROFLMAO, Office tasks. What a moronic reply: talking about GRID and he comes with what? OFFICE.
ROFLMAO. Must sux BIG time to be so friggin stupid.
Again, you live in your little world of what? Clerks? Janitors?
Oh my… Office. Why not Quake, silly?
Sheeeees, single applications: is this your little $1500 job in a cubicle?
Concerning Top500: again, are you stupid or what? It is not your regular Windows that run on those. It is Microsoft Windows Compute Cluster Server. Ever tried to install that on your laptop? What an idiot.
Whatever. Keep laughing, you are just revealing how silly you are.
Wake up bimbo, the world does more than Photoshop and Office. Can’t even laugh at you: too pitiful.
Just to add something, if NFS is supposed to be part of this new architecture for Mac switchers to Windows, someone is going to have to acquire NFS client/server software. As far as I’m aware there is no ‘good’ freeware to achieve this and the commercial alternatives cost around $150.
Presumably this is just another ‘tax’ that the Macintosh users would have to pay on top of the tax to protect us from viruses, spam, adware, etc.
Wow, this Windows computing thing sure is expensive.
Yes you get DVGate, Ulead and Premiere bundled and of course the Infamous Windows Movie Maker. Take your pick. If they’re not good enough for your needs, perhaps you do need to be spending money on semi-pro software.
Are you lying or did you not simply not read the specs…
You don’t get Premiere bundled in, you get Premiere Element which – unlike iMove HD – doesn’t support HDV.
HDV isn’t a semi-pro thing, it’s now a consumer option. Or is something only good for consumer when you say it is.
Don’t tell me: you may want high-definition, but you don’t really need it (well, until Microsoft or one of their ISVs say so at which point you’ll agree).
As for expecting Apple to implement Blu-Ray first, I’m betting that you may well see options for Blu-Ray in the new Mac towers as well as the 2G MacBook Pro units when they move to Merom. Not that anybody needs a Merom-powered laptop, but they may just want one.
I wondered why this thread on Dell was so popular. How could anything about Dell be popular. LOL, Now I see why:
“Do you need to do tasks that cannot be done elsewhere? No”
FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY. That’s my point.
And you are wrong. Of course there are. Why do you think people have been doing dual-booting Linux/Windows forever? For fun?
There are tasks that are difficult or not easily accomplished on Linux (although OpenOffice is coming more and more as a solution) so that people needed to re-boot on Windows for some task, then back to Linux for their work, then back to Windows, etc. A pain in the arse.
Could they only work on Linux. Not really. Could they only work on Windows, not at all.
You are looking at the question purely from the consumer point of view.
Windows is no Unix. There are tasks, jobs, libraries, applications that are Unix only (and variants, Linux include which is not exactly Unix but from practical point of view it is very close).
Linux/Unix lacks Windows publishing applications hence difficult to work 100% on a Unix/Linux environment.
Then comes Mac OS X. Dual booters notice that they can do the primarily Windows tasks on the consumer side of OS X and, oh my, IT IS UNIX, so they can do the primary Unix/Linux only tasks on OS X as well, on its BSD Unix side.
Hence the switch. They can do all their tasks on one single OS without pampering and maintaining two OSes, storing results in a portable format so that the other OS could access them and reboot and do this many times a day sometimes.
Do they need to do that on Mac OS X? Nope. They stay on one OS, perform all the tasks there, do not need to store results elsewhere because they can even drag&drop; their stuff all over the place.
Could they do all that just on Windows? Nope.
Could they do all that just on Linux/Unix? Nope.
They do it all that on Mac OS X. They would not be able to reproduce the flexibility of a Unix OS that runs most popular consumer and desktop publishing applications concurrently and sharing the same file system in other OSes.
Today only Mac OS X allows to do that: it has accomplished what Linux has tried to be for years but never got there.
As an ex-dualbooter I could not care less if Dell was to sink and disappear. I could suffer my dual-booting on an HP, Lenovo, Acer, you name it.
Would I notice Apple disappear? You bet, I would need to go back to dual-booting time waste that have nothing to do with the job at hand.
Funny that iPodder mentions GRID and then says “No” to the question “Do you need to do tasks that cannot be done elsewhere?” when thinking about moving from OS X to Windows. You might say ‘No’ just on consumer products alone.
Of course YES. Why do you thing people in academic, research and educational world dual boot? Why do you think Apple is entering these fields like crazy and MacBooks do sell there like hot cakes?
On the consumer side the adoption of Mac OS X from Windows users is more difficult because people simply do not believe that the same tasks can be so much easier and less intrusive on the consumer side of OS X. So as Stevie said – here, have another cookie – I can do those things of Windows, why do I NEED OS X?
Apple BootCamp is there to put OS X right under the nose of these category of people. Compare for yourself then decide.
For all other category of people the issue is just evident: there are tasks that I cannot do on Windows and I do need Linux (again, Windows is no Unix), there are tasks that I cannot accomplish on Linux and I need Windows (but OpenOffice is coming to rescue).
Or I could just use Mac OS X and forget all the hassle.
Peace.
PS
Amazing, MDN word “children”. Now, that’s scary.
To all: The original premise was “Dell” vs “Not Dell” and “Apple vs Not Apple”, You’re the ones trying to limit it to Windows, Microsoft etc.
“Concerning Top500: again, are you stupid or what? It is not your regular Windows that run on those. It is Microsoft Windows Compute Cluster Server. Ever tried to install that on your laptop? What an idiot.”
Did I ever even claim Windows was a good supercomuter OS?
No, but every tried to run a 6000 node cluster built out of Mac Book Pros or iMacs?
How do you explain the really low usage of Mac OS X for an OS which in your view is so “Suitable” and the really high use of Linux, and OS which you say is completely “unsuitable”?
Either all those supercomputer builders are wrong, or you are. I don’t think it takes too much brainpower to work out which.
Now Apple is Intel based, it’s days of being a vendor of components used in supercomputers are over, it just can’t compete.
Gee, firstly the original premise was “Dell” vs “Not Dell” and “Apple vs Not Apple”, You’re the one trying to limit it to Windows.
“no ‘good’ freeware to achieve this “
HA HA HA HA That was the example for Linux. I didn’t think THAT needed to be explained, but then you’re British, so lets start again. No Free NFS in Linux? HA HA HA.
SMB will also reconnect volumes.
“HDV isn’t a semi-pro thing, it’s now a consumer option. Or is something only good for consumer when you say it is”
So use ulead, fact is HDV burning to Blu-Ray on the Sony is reality today, and a future possibility for Mac notebooks. Just exactly what Apple HDV hardware/software combo are you using on your Mac to generate either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs? Or is it exactly what you say, A theoretical “coming real soon now” “Option” not a “reality” for you.
“may well see options for Blu-Ray “
Following not leading.
As an Apple customer because Apple is on the committee I just assume Apple invented Blu-Ray. Why would they let Sony get in first with their invention. Unless Apple did’t invent it no, gaaah, can’t be true. Goes against the basic premise that Apple Invents Everything. My little Apple World is crumbling, must ignore contradictory facts, must ignore contradictory facts la la la la.
“dual-booting Linux/Windows forever?”
If just one doesn’t suit your needs, you can run Windows under Linux, or Linux under Windows – and have been able to do so – Forever. Pick the one you care to run natively as the “host” and run the other in a virtual machine..
Oh I forgot, you probably think virtual machine operating systems were invented by the Parallels guys. That honor goes to IBM and other researchers four decades ago.
“Linux/Unix lacks Windows publishing applications hence difficult to work 100% on a Unix/Linux environment.
“
Hence the qualification, “if it suits your needs” Clearly it suits the needs of people building supercomputers.
“simply do not believe that the same tasks can be so much easier and less intrusive on the consumer side of OS X. “
That’s because it’s simply not true. People have a habit of not believing things which are not true.
To all: The original premise was “Dell” vs “Not Dell” and “Apple vs Not Apple”, You’re the ones trying to limit it to Windows, Microsoft etc.
Then the thread should be closed. “Dell” vs “Not Dell” is a who-cares really? There is nothing I can run on Dell that I cannot on any other PC. So if Dell goes, who cares really? Get another PC
For Apple, if Apple goes, you cannot get another PC and run OS X or Apple-only applications.
“Concerning Top500: again, are you stupid or what? It is not your regular Windows that run on those. It is Microsoft Windows Compute Cluster Server. Ever tried to install that on your laptop? What an idiot.”
Did I ever even claim Windows was a good supercomuter OS?
I think you missed the point of the original poster. The issue is Linux as installed on those supercomputers can be installed on a laptop. Mac OS X installed on those supercomputers is the same that runs on all other products.
No, but every tried to run a 6000 node cluster built out of Mac Book Pros or iMacs?
Not on laptops but on regular towers that any consumer could buy. And since today MacBook Pros run faster than old G5 towers then the original System X of Virginia Tech if built on MacBook Pros would be faster than its predecessor.
Again, the issue implied here is that the OS is the same, not a special version that run adapted only on supercomputers.
How do you explain the really low usage of Mac OS X for an OS which in your view is so “Suitable” and the really high use of Linux, and OS which you say is completely “unsuitable”?
Could not find any poster saying Linux is unsuitable. OS X is a BSD variant so it is as suitable as all others. Linux is free, quite nice when you have to have a couple thousands installations. A saving already of what, some 100,000$ ? Not bad for a University on tight budget.
OS X is very young on the market. The fact that already 5 supercomputer installations are using it in by itself a statement. And yes, you can drive the supercomputer from a laptop, and run/check the very same applications there before sending the task to the cluster. Go read Virginia Tech reports on their system.
Either all those supercomputer builders are wrong, or you are. I don’t think it takes too much brainpower to work out which.
I guess it is clear you are wrong. No one said here Linux is unsuitable, unless proved wrong everyone said Windows is unsuitable.
Now Apple is Intel based, it’s days of being a vendor of components used in supercomputers are over, it just can’t compete.
ON the contrary. Apple is the only Intel based system supporting fully EFI. As soon as they deliver intel (Xeon Woodcrest) based Xserve others will not be able to complete. Their days as vendor of components used in supercomputers are yet to start big time. Intel based Xserves are the hot buzzword in academic world nowadays.
Gee, firstly the original premise was “Dell” vs “Not Dell” and “Apple vs Not Apple”, You’re the one trying to limit it to Windows.
Maybe because it is evident that Dell vs Not Dell is not an issue? Who cares, many other brands do provide the very same.
SMB will also reconnect volumes.
AFS (Andrew File System) would not on Windows.
“dual-booting Linux/Windows forever?”
If just one doesn’t suit your needs, you can run Windows under Linux, or Linux under Windows – and have been able to do so – Forever. Pick the one you care to run natively as the “host” and run the other in a virtual machine..
Limited on little world? That’s is just silly: If you need full hardware access virtual machine is a no-go. You need rebooting. Never read anything above first grade level?
Oh I forgot, you probably think virtual machine operating systems were invented by the Parallels guys. That honor goes to IBM and other researchers four decades ago.
The above just shows you know only buzz word. You cannot do every task on a virtual machine. Period. Hence dual-booting.
“Linux/Unix lacks Windows publishing applications hence difficult to work 100% on a Unix/Linux environment.
“
Hence the qualification, “if it suits your needs” Clearly it suits the needs of people building supercomputers.
I do not think Linux was ever a problem. You are just making this up.
“simply do not believe that the same tasks can be so much easier and less intrusive on the consumer side of OS X. “
That’s because it’s simply not true. People have a habit of not believing things which are not true.
Nope, that’s because people have the habit of believing the majority is always right. “Everybody is doing Windows, they can’t all be wrong, right?”. WRONG.
Flies really do like shit, and most of people in the US eat at fastfood. I see, hence shit is good and junk Big Mac: can’t eat better than that.
Enjoy.
Hence the qualification, “if it suits your needs” Clearly it suits the needs of people building supercomputers.
I do not think Linux was ever a problem. You are just making this up.
Hahahahah, Stevie must think then the researchers run Windows on the supercomputer on virtual machine to have the fastest Word or Excell in the world.
Here Stevie, get another cookie. BTW, what moronic comment… “clearly it suits…” blah blah blah. Is that all you are capable to say?
Yawn, what a troll.
“There is nothing I can run on Dell that I cannot on any other PC. “
Thanks for restating where we got to about 150 posts back. The real controversy is whether Apple went away could you use non Apple products to do the same things and get on with life.
“Mac OS X installed on those supercomputers is the same that runs on all other products.”
Five of the top 500, all dropping in the rankings, few more likely to ever be built. I wouldn’t call that a big win for Mac OS X in that area.
“Intel based Xserves are the hot buzzword in academic world nowadays”
Comes back to price. Every vendor will have a Woodcrest server which perfoms just about the same. Supercomputer builders won’t be running Mac OS X or Windows on it. People will choose the cheaper hardware. Even if Apple may be closer than the’ve ever been that still won’t be Apple.
“Could not find any poster saying Linux is unsuitable. “
Read iPodder’s posts again, he specifically dismisses Linux for that application.
“If you need full hardware access virtual machine is a no-go”, “The above just shows you know only buzz word”
Hence the comment, choose whichever one you’d prefer to run natively and host the other, if you even need both in the first place. If I wasn’t aware of the limitiations why would I suggest you might chose to run either as the main OS and the other as the hosted OS depending on your needs. (Or taking it all the way, set up a dual boot system each running the other in a virtual machine). For some stuff you need full access to “real” hardware, for other stuff you don’t and for that the virtual machine is just fine.
” I see, hence shit is good and junk Big Mac: can’t eat better than that.”
That’s a leap of logic unsupported by the basic facts. I doubt anyone goes to McDonald’s and says to themselves this will be like a really nice meal at a good restaurant. The analogy is McDonalds vs Burger King vs Wendy’s. You may prefer one vendor’s product, and be prepared to argue passionately why a double black Angus burger makes a big double classic with cheese look just like yesterday’s burger (look at the exquisite detail in the printing on the wrapper, it’s just GOT to be a better burger, why can’t you SEE that…), but the reality is that they’re more the same than different.
People have a habit of not believing things which are not true.
Oh my. Not at all. We would be out of business by now if that was true.
People can be made to believe everything anytime. Even that Windows is the most secure OS in the world and the reference in trusted computing.
Sheeessh, the crap we make people believe. We always laugh all the way to the bank each time.
Heard of our last one? Windows Genuine Advantage. Oh my, that was great. They still believe it. We are the Spin Masters.
ROFLMAO – What’s that short for “Rolling on Feces Licking My Anal Orifice”
Since that’s about the intellectual level of your reply…
Get back in the cage with IPodder.
“BTW, what moronic comment… “clearly it suits…” “
Yep, 367 out of the top 500, I must be really MORONIC to think that Linux is being chosen in this market.
5 out of 500 Mac OS X, Yep, but you know, we just introduced the Intel Macs, market share will grow once all those supercomputer guys just realize what a Genius Steve Jobs is and start using Apple products. I tell you this puny Linux won’t stand a chance, Also IBM, I dismiss them. they are but makers of toy supercomputers compared to the Mighty Apple….
“Even that Windows is the most secure OS in the world and the reference in trusted computing.
Yeah, like people believe that. Perhaps you believe they do, but I don’t think that they do..
Fact is, for most people, set up with good antivirus, it’s secure enough.
Would you believe it: MDN word British!
There is nothing I can run on Dell that I cannot on any other PC. “
Thanks for restating where we got to about 150 posts back. The real controversy is whether Apple went away could you use non Apple products to do the same things and get on with life.
Then again the controversy is pointless. On the consumer side there are no areas where are covered only by applications run on a specific OS.
What kind of controversy is there? It all boils down to whether some tasks are easier and more efficiently to do with one application than another or few other combined. If you take that part away than anything resemble anything and there is absolutely nothing that allows you to choose a product versus another. If your only criteria to select a sw product is whether it says it does “video editing” then you are a poor buyer.
Of course one has to get ease of use, features and how efficiently, easy, effortlessly you get to one result.
To limit on “does or not the same thing”… then everything is as good as everything else if they do the same end result.
Do all DVD authoring product in the end allow you to get your movie on a DVD. Of course. Are there some where it is a pleasure to work with and others they make you’ll never touch again? Of course.
What is your point? That the market for consumers do not have uncharted areas? You just discovered hot water.
“Mac OS X installed on those supercomputers is the same that runs on all other products.”
Five of the top 500, all dropping in the rankings, few more likely to ever be built. I wouldn’t call that a big win for Mac OS X in that area.
ALL systems are dropping in the rankings every year. This is pretty common with every system with every release of Top500. Your point is?
Virginia Tech got in the Top500 at first place as cluster based at the time. Two years later 4 more systems are using OS X. Again, OS X is a BSD Unix variant, not a funny niche beast to be adapted to run supercomputers.
Hors Simon, one of the publishers of Top500 and Director of IT department of Lawrence Berkeley Lab called the entry of Apple in that arena pretty significative. I’ll call him to tell that you disagree with him.
cont.
“Intel based Xserves are the hot buzzword in academic world nowadays”
Comes back to price.
Concerning storage, Xserves are the cheapest of all in the market. If massive storage is needed Xserves are being chosen. That is one reason of those 5: they came cheaper.
Every vendor will have a Woodcrest server which perfoms just about the same. Supercomputer builders won’t be running Mac OS X or Windows on it.
Cannot agree more for Windows. Would be stupid. For Mac OS X it is just another BSD Unix system. Pretty capable to run on supercomputers. Leopard (next OS X) is supposed to become fully 64-bit supporting and, again, will be the only one supporting EFI. Cannot predict the future about choosing to run OS X more on supercomputers but certainly it is not to be excluded that easily.
Concerning “just about the same” is not a good criteria for choosing one system/OS combo versus another. You choose the best. OS X will certainly be for certain uses the best choice. Hardly can be said of a Windows (any edition) that a consumer can buy today. And I would not hold my breath for Vista, errr, Windows XP SP3.
People will choose the cheaper hardware. Even if Apple may be closer than the’ve ever been that still won’t be Apple.
Again, consumer mentality. People will choose the hardware that will give them the best specmarks and TeraFlops with their budget, not the cheapest one.
“Could not find any poster saying Linux is unsuitable. “
Read iPodder’s posts again, he specifically dismisses Linux for that application.
You need to point me to the specific statement where he dismisses Linux for use in supercomputers. Cannot find it.
“If you need full hardware access virtual machine is a no-go”, “The above just shows you know only buzz word”
Hence the comment, choose whichever one you’d prefer to run natively and host the other, if you even need both in the first place. If I wasn’t aware of the limitiations why would I suggest you might chose to run either as the main OS and the other as the hosted OS depending on your needs. (Or taking it all the way, set up a dual boot system each running the other in a virtual machine). For some stuff you need full access to “real” hardware, for other stuff you don’t and for that the virtual machine is just fine.
So you assume to be in a world where requirements never change? Choose the one you need full access as main and the other as host. Bingo, solved.
Never thought that both could need hardware access? Pretty common. Again, since virtual machine is there since ever, why do you think people have been dual booting since ever? All stupid? C’mon, think of something else. Even you should be able to come with a better retort.
Again, virtuality is not the panacea or the silver bullet for all possible needs.
” I see, hence shit is good and junk Big Mac: can’t eat better than that.”
That’s a leap of logic unsupported by the basic facts. I doubt anyone goes to McDonald’s and says to themselves this will be like a really nice meal at a good restaurant.
Not in those terms but there are people who go to McDonald’s and say they will never spend 300$ on a meal at a good restaurant because meat is meat is meat. Where do you live? On Mars? Never heard of people saying haute cuisine is overpriced? Champagne is overpriced, caviar is overpriced, etc and food for silly rich people who do not know how to burn money faster? Hellooo? Are you theeeheree?
It happens the same and all the time. The analogy is not on fast foods (ie junk food) but food providers. Windows users say: food is food is food.
Champagne and pee are the same: both yellowish, with bubbles and a funny taste. One is much cheaper.
I’ll stick to champagne, thank you.
You may prefer one vendor’s product, and be prepared to argue passionately why a double black Angus burger makes a big double classic with cheese look just like yesterday’s burger (look at the exquisite detail in the printing on the wrapper, it’s just GOT to be a better burger, why can’t you SEE that…), but the reality is that they’re more the same than different.
Nope, the analogy is on meat. Either from a Big Mac (wow, a fuuuuul pound of meat) and a Cordon Bleu. Hey, it’s meat, they both weight the same, and it is meat. Meat is meat, right?
It is your point: Apple applications that do things that other applications elsewhere do (as final product). Meat is meat is meat?
As Windows users, I couldn’t doubt that for you it is all fastfood quality.
Or pee and champagne. Again, if your criteria for selection is: bubbles, yellowish and funny taste, then you are right: pee and champagne are just the same.
Anyway, I could not care less of all the arguments above. To me the most important thing is that I can run concurrently, on the same OS, with the same file system my Unix applications and desktop publishing applications and drag&drop; histograms from my X11 graphic output directly on my slides or my paper.
Cannot do that, and so easily, with ANY other SINGLE OS. Even on virtual machines you have to maintain multiple OSes, and for what when you can avoid that so easily with OS X?
The only reason would be the need to run a specific application that does NOT exist nor provide similar/same results but in that specific additional OS. But this is an hypothesis that you the first believe untrue.
Strangely enough, such case though does exist: Windows.
I cannot run Linux applications on it. I can on OS X. So indeed there is something I can only do on Linux and OS X but not on Windows.
There are things I can do only on Windows and OS X but not on Linux. So today while OS X could be an exhaustive solution, the same cannot be said for other major OSes. They need to be shouldered (no matter for how little %) by other applications on other OSes.
And the above it is one of the major reasons Apple is growing by more than 30% in academics and research to the point to make even Apple bewildered.
And if there is still one that insists to say that does not really matter in that I could have one, two, more computers and OSes that will do what I can on a single OS X platform than there is really nothing one could add at this point.
Looking at the recent Q2 results it is an opinion that very few share.
“Even that Windows is the most secure OS in the world and the reference in trusted computing.
Yeah, like people believe that. Perhaps you believe they do, but I don’t think that they do..
Fact is, for most people, set up with good antivirus, it’s secure enough.
Indeed, and that Windows is as secure as all others. Gates, my master, even said at shareholders that Windows is bound to be the most secure because it is the more under attack. At each attack that gets patched Windows becomes more secure. Other OSes that are not attacked do not have the chance to have their fault exposed, hence potentially more at risk than Windows. AND THEY APPLAUDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Windows users keep saying that if OS X or Linux were as popular as Windows then their users would be in ever worst situation. So indeed they do believe Windows is at least as secure if not more than others. Ever heard of the silly “security by obscurity”. It is just the same concept rephrased.
Fact is, most people, set up with good antivirus, have PCs riddled with malware and spyware and do not even updated their antivirus. BTW, one is not enough.
1) All this talk of burgers has made me very hungry.
2) SJIOSC – you keep missing out on the whole picture: iMovie HD and iDVD are capable of delivering a complete ‘creative’ HDV to HD disc solution. Sony’s solution either offers you a tragically anaemic way of transferring HDV content to a BluRay disk without any real creative control on a par with iMovie/iDVD, or you have the option of creative control (over the editing part anyway) using Premiere Elements in SD DV at which point you’re going to be a bit annoyed about buying that HDV camcorder.
I don’t want to pay Adobe or Ulead $100 just to be able do the things I can do on my Mac today, especially as Sony would like $3499 of my hard-earned cash. They would also seemingly wish me to go and get a surgical truss because the behemoth weighs 8 pounds (putting two 100GB hard drives in was inspired, presumably one 160GB drive wasn’t an elegant enough solution!)
Actually the truss will come in useful, because Sony – for reasons passing understanding – haven’t provided a TOSLink optical out for Dolby/DTS audio, presumably because someone like you said at a product development meeting “Don’t worry, everyone will have to go out and buy an HDMI-equipped cinema receiver”, so I may have to go and blow another $1500 or so if I want cinema quality audio.
As if all of this wasn’t bad enough, I don’t even get Windows XP Professional: no, instead I get the Media Center edition – in other words, XP Home after some particularly unappealing plastic surgery.
3) I’m going to offer you a compromise: I’ll concede that Microsoft and Dell are driving the PC industry, if you concede that they’re asleep at the wheel and are possibly under the influence of narcotics.
I know I’ve experienced Windows reboots when network details have changed, although I can’t remember which details have to change for a reboot to be invoked.
It used to be practically everything, then changes to DNS settings seemed to become fairly benign and I’m not certain where we are on this saga now.
In some ways, the more hilarious symptom of Windows’ constant need to be rebooted is when you go into the Display settings and swap from large fonts to small fonts and back again. Why this would need a reboot is a total mystery, but then what’s new.
“Then again the controversy is pointless. On the consumer side there are no areas where are covered only by applications run on a specific OS.”
Ok, so we’re done with discussing then, since that affirms the original position exactly?
“To limit on “does or not the same thing”… then everything is as good as everything else if they do the same end result.”
No, I’m saying does the same thing with similar ease.
“Mac OS X installed on those supercomputers is the same that runs on all other products.”
As is the Windows 2003 server that runs on one of the Windows supercomputers. But who cares? we can see that Linux owns most of this field now.
“ALL systems are dropping in the rankings every year. This is pretty common with every system with every release of Top500. Your point is?”
Yes but new Linux systems are coming in at the top, not a lot of new Mac OS X systems.
“Hors Simon, one of the publishers of Top500 and Director of IT department of Lawrence Berkeley Lab called the entry of Apple in that arena pretty significative. I’ll call him to tell that you disagree with him.”
The same group said Microsoft entering the arena was a significant development. Make of that what you will…
“”just about the same” is not a good criteria for choosing one system/OS combo versus another. You choose the best.” “People will choose the hardware that will give them the best specmarks and TeraFlops with their budget, not the cheapest one.”
Yes, but I struggle to believe that Apple will produce the fastest Woodcrest server on the planet. I tend to believe that they’ll all perform about the same, i.e. that for the main difference will not be performance or features but price.
Anyway, remember what you’re needing to argue here is “The Supercomputer world would miss Apple because…” Not “Apple XServes would make good building blocks for a supercomputer because…”
So all the above is really moot.
And here’s it’s pretty clear that they already predominantly use hardware from other people, and Apple’s hardware is now just clone of that hardware, And even if they purchased Apple hardware, they would probably use operating systems other than Mac OS X, so they wouldn’t miss Apple at all.
“Again, since virtual machine is there since ever, why do you think people have been dual booting since ever? All stupid? C’mon, think of something else. Even you should be able to come with a better retort.”
What are you even saying? Learn English or post in your native language.
Virtual machines do some things well, other things badly, not disputing that.
“Nope, the analogy is on meat. Either from a Big Mac (wow, a fuuuuul pound of meat) and a Cordon Bleu. Hey, it’s meat, they both weight the same, and it is meat. Meat is meat, right?” “Never heard of people saying haute cuisine is overpriced? Champagne is overpriced, caviar is overpriced, etc and food for silly rich people who do not know how to burn money faster? Hellooo? Are you theeeheree?”
No, the analogy is one kind of burger and another kind of burger. The products are sufficiently the same that to pretend to compare them as if a much superior product is stupid.
“funny taste, then you are right: pee and champagne are just the same.”
How would you know that they taste the same? Where I’m from we don’t roll around in our shit, OR drink our pee. Please take a shower and brush your teeth.
“The only reason would be the need to run a specific application that does NOT exist nor provide similar/same results but in that specific additional OS. But this is an hypothesis that you the first believe untrue.
“
No, you’re extending MDN’s hypothesis that Dell is replaceable (clearly true) to that the whole Windows universe is replaceable. Clearly the second is not true. There are some things you can only do on Windows today.
“Fact is, most people, set up with good antivirus, have PCs riddled with malware and spyware and do not even updated their antivirus. BTW, one is not enough.”
In your mind maybe, not in the real world.
“I don’t want to pay Adobe or Ulead $100 just to be able do the things I can do on my Mac today,”
Excuse me, which Mac notebook has an internal Blu-Ray option? I know, you Expect that product soon, and soon expect to be able to do the things with the Sony today on your Mac at some point in the future. And guess what, you’re probably right. Sooner or later Apple will catch up.
“haven’t provided a TOSLink optical out for Dolby/DTS audio”
The unit has an S/PDIF output. Who wouldn’t prefer the S/PDIF coaxial audio output to toslink? Given the choice between the two, don’t use toslink, unless you know for a fact that the units on both ends have very good transceivers and the cable is extremely high quality. .
“may have to go and blow another $1500 or so if I want cinema quality audio.”
C’mon, almost every receiver has an S/PDIF coaxial input. Why would you want to spend $1500 to solve a non existent problem?
“”Don’t worry, everyone will have to go out and buy an HDMI-equipped cinema receiver”,”
Or not, as we see above.
“I know I’ve experienced Windows reboots when network details have changed, although I can’t remember which details have to change for a reboot to be invoked.”
Probably you’re thinking about Win2k and earlier.
What are you even saying? Learn English or post in your native language.
We always said here that making such remarks is idiotic.
I am sure you would understand shit if he was to post in his native language. One more proof you are a real lobster.
MDN “water”. How appropriate for a lobster.
Chuck you, Farley.
“I am sure you would understand shit if he was to post in his native language. One more proof you are a real lobster.”
No, it’s a real problem, and I feel that I’d have a better understanding if he just posted coherently in his native language, if it’s one I coherently read then we’d probably enhance communication.
feel that I’d have a better understanding if he just posted coherently in his native language, if it’s one I coherently read then we’d probably enhance communication.
Great, so which other language you coherently read and write better than this poster showed with English?
If not better I can’t see how you could have a better communication.
“native speaker” You’re either retarded or not a native speaker.
As I suspected. You are just an single-language lobster: tail full of meat and head full of shit.
As usual when you have no answers to provide you either change topics or start calling names.
Just a troll. Thanks for confirming that dicklick.
Answer correctly in less than 5 minutes, you’ll get another cookie and you’ll be the first troll to be allowed to lament of poor english here, retard.
chupa me =
suca =
succhiami il cazzo =
suche ma bite =
fauler Sack =
alte Landsau =
Diese Troll ist eicht Scheiße =
Scheißkerl =
vaffanculo =
testa di cazzo =
arruso =
Kontneuker =
Kutding =
Teringlijder =
Hoerenjong =
Randdebiel =
Me rug op =
and finally
Loop naar de hel, Spast.
MDN “horse” like in you’re the southend of a northbound horse
that SteveJackIsOnSpaceCookies is an ignorant xenophobe – curious for someone who laughs at George W Bush, but maybe he’s from the far right of the Republican party – so the fact that he picks on people with English as a second language is hardly a surprise.
His approach to any argument is that “want” is almost irrelevant to the consumer or the customer; any aspiration to deliver a superior product, such as a Keynote presentation when compared to Powerpoint or to create a home HD/BluRay DVD with HD content that has some creative flair is merely an affectation – PowerPoint is good enough and using Ulead for DVGate (with its limited “straight-cut” functionaility) should be good enough.
If you disagree with his point of view, you are ridiculed or bullied; if you have any evidence that absolutely counters his point of view, he changes the argument.
So far his idea of mainstream has been flexible enough to embrace CNC manufacturing, but not flexible enough to include DVD production. His antipathy to the MacOS is such that he will even recommend running Windows as a guest within Linux, rather than admit that the MacOS has some level of unique appeal.
I believe this guy has been here before: I remember arguing with someone -under a different name – who had a similar Windows/Linux fetish some while ago where his view was that optical audio input/output, DVI output FireWire 800 and various other PowerBook features were nothing more than fripperies; if this is the same poster, it’s ironic that he’s now touting a Sony laptop with optical audio and the consumer version of DVI (HDMI).
This poster’s antipathy and prejudice is further confirmed by the fact that he believes that Apple shipping a digital hub suite included in all new Macs that would arguably cost $300-500 and possibly more to add to Windows XP at a similar level of capability does not in and of itself constitute a unique product.
Furthermore, elements like AppleScript (no equivalent in Windows), Automator (no equivalent), Expose (a half-hearted knock-off coming in Vista), the included Development Tools (a commercial option with Windows), the availability of BSD Unix, the programmer-extensible desktop search of Spotlight (no direct equivalent in Windows), integrated text-to-speech and VoiceOver for visually impaired users are not sufficient evidence of a unique product, because – in his view – these are just nice to have features, rather than ‘life-changing’.
His world view appears to be that Windows XP is more than capable of acting as a homogeneous solution to all desktop computing requirements. The fact that so many corporates continue to shun Windows XP in favour of maintaining a Windows 2000 environment appears to have passed him by and he never seems to have questioned why that would be the case.
His lack of empathy with the needs of real users is stunning, his intolerance of those with opposing viewpoints is unbelievably aggressive and shows a lack of maturity or flexibility.
That’s pretty juvenile,
I thought about swearing back at you in each language (lets face it the first thing you learn in any language are a few swear words), but why bother.
That would just coming down to your level.
Thanks for really lowering the tone of the postings.
You’re either retarded or not a native speaker — SJIOSC
lets face it the first thing you learn in any language are a few swear words — SJIOSC
Well, since you are a native speaker you must thence be retarded:
lets wants an apostrophe: let’s
first thing…. are ? ARE? The first thing you learn IS. The verb goes with ‘The first thing’ not with ‘swear words’ RETARD!
That would just coming down to your level — SJIOSC
That would what? As a retarded native you should be congratulated: you scored errors on 50% of the statements you wrote.
What a moron bozo
“AppleScript (no equivalent in Windows), Automator (no equivalent),”
Appescript? Automator? You’re not seriously saying that hundreds of batch and automation tools don’t exist for non Apple systems and for Windows, including WSH? Take your pick.
“expose”
3rd party equivalents exist for non Apple systems. In fact I think I saw the software which inspired this feature first in some of the PC expanded desktop products of 10-15 years back.
“flexible enough to embrace CNC manufacturing, but not flexible enough to include DVD production”
Putting words in my mouth, never defined these as mainstream or not, you were the one who asked for several examples of what Windows was good at and Mac OS X couldn’t do. That was but one of them, and as far as I can see you haven’t contradicted that, your best argument is it’s not “mainstream”, not that I’m right.
And we went along way down the DVD production discussion, and concluded that you can create a DVD on Windows or the Mac, but the only notebook today with a built in Blu-Ray drive to create the HD movies you want is a Sony, yet for some reason a Macbook is apparently still a better notebook platform for producing Blu-Ray Disks. You then got confused and went down a tangent as to whether it had digital audio output in a common format, which it does, and still seem to think that a Blu-ray MacBook exists, which it doesn’t.
“optical audio input/output, DVI output FireWire 800 and various other PowerBook features were nothing more than fripperies;”
All available for non Apple systems, what’s your point, that some OTHER guy once claimed they were worthless?
“does not in and of itself constitute a unique product. “
Because it doesn’t. The same can all be done on non Apple systems. It may be your “favorite” product for the job, but “unique” – no way.
If you say that “I want to achieve job X and the only way I want to do it is with a product that looks and works exactly like Product Y” then I guess you could claim product Y is “unique” and “irreplaceable” but only because of how narrowly you defined things.
“a commercial option with Windows”
Or free tools exist for Non Apple systems including Windows.
“Sony laptop with optical audio and the consumer version of DVI (HDMI).”
That only came up correcting your misunderstandings about that particular machine’s capability. You chose to dive into it’s feature set. I chose to help you understand where you were wrong about it. Can’t have it both ways, claim I brush over things in one instance, and then get detailed the next…
“Consumer version of DVI”,
That implies it’s more than just a different, more compact connector with audio added. HDMI to DVI “conversion” is just a matter of an adapter plug. You clearly ran right off the end of your knowledge with the Sony discussion. Kinda like watching the Coyote with his feet spinning in air.
“text-to-speech”
In Windows since the 90’s. Available in DOS/Windows forever, heck even available on an Apple II (very crude of course).
“corporates continue to shun Windows XP in favour of maintaining a Windows 2000 “
Corporates move slowly. You’d know that if you had really run IT projects to the degree that you say you have.
To counter, for the non migrators, it’d be an indication of just how well Win2k is suiting their needs that they don’t feel big pressure to update to anything newer. What it seems is that you’re putting forward evidence that even the previous version of Windows works just fine for them too.
“intolerance of those with opposing viewpoints is unbelievably aggressive and shows a lack of maturity or flexibility.”
I think if we went back and counted who had agreed with the other posters most, you’d find it was me. And if you counted who threw the first insult in any exchange, most of the time, the other person. Generally I assume if they can dish it out, they can take it.
Finally if you think there’s any topics I’ve missed, I’ll be happy to go back over them. list them out.
But remember the topic to stay focused on is “if Apple were to go away, I would be unable to do the same thing on a non Apple system because…”
And “It’s just so fricking hard for me to use the software to get the job done” would be a valid point of view, except as you can see, I just don’t buy that argument for any of the tasks mentioned thus far.
“What a moron bozo”
Either add something useful to the discussion or get back in your cage and at least go amuse the tourists.
And we went along way down the DVD production discussion, and concluded that you can create a DVD on Windows or the Mac, but the only notebook today with a built in Blu-Ray drive to create the HD movies you want is a Sony, yet for some reason a Macbook is apparently still a better notebook platform for producing Blu-Ray Disks. You then got confused and went down a tangent as to whether it had digital audio output in a common format, which it does, and still seem to think that a Blu-ray MacBook exists, which it doesn’t.
And once again the arrogance comes to the fore:
SteveJackIsOnSpaceCookies has spoken, therefore it has been agreed and concluded. No voting is necessary for he is all-knowing and all-powerful.
You can create a BluRay project on a Mac now and save it until the burners are available for a Mac. You can also create an HD-DVD project now and save it until the burners are available. Not only that, but your projects may actually appeal to someone because you’ll have access to a range of effects and edits that actually exhibit some creativity. But if you want to go and blow $3500 on your Sony brick and then blow another $500 to bring your software up to scratch, be my guest – but you should be aware that they’re actually only shipping in Japan and the USA. Europe is on a pre-order basis, and the last time that was the case, Sony EOLed the machine before it even got here – something about Apple taking all the Core Duo chips. Of course, that probably won’t happen this time – Apple are probably about to move the MacBook Pro to Merom, so Sony can have all the Core Duos they need.
If you seriously believe that a similar product to Expose existed in 1990 – the era of Windows 3.0 – then I suspect you’re tripping on something Windows 3.0 could barely handle PageMaker without exploding, and After Dark often required endless fiddling with WIN.INI, SYSTEM.INI, and CONFIG.SYS – curiously on a Macintosh, it just worked. Also, if you think that Windows Scripting Host even remotely comes close to AppleScript, you are again tripping – a scripting environment that most administrators prefer to have disabled because of security issues (what was that about security not being much of a problem) is not actually much use.
But do me a favour here: give me an idea of the percentage of Windows apps that provide a structured scriptable API to WSH out of the bo (it doesn’t count as easy to emulate if a user – who may not have your vast level of sophistication – has to go and find the functionality, assuming it exists). For instance, does the Windows version of Google Earth have the same scripting capability as it does on the Mac OUT OF THE BOX. Does Adobe Photoshop? Does iTunes?
AppleScript provides a single structured method for an application to present an API. Because it isn’t based on Visual Basic or whatever fucked-up version of Java Microsoft created, it isn’t disabled by system administrators. Of course, we then get to Automator – if you have a product that provides that functionality, show me the money. BTW, there are currently 167 contributed sets of Actions on Apple’s website alone – presumably the product you can point me to has that same level of take-up and presumably all of the applications which have an interface to Windows Scripting Host also have the capability to have Automator-like actions created for them.
As for corporates moving slowly, how come they didn’t move slowly to Windows 2000 which got adopted at a pretty prolific rate by companies desperate to move away from Windows 95, but who couldn’t use NT4 because its ability to handle docked/undocked profiles was useless.
Face it, Windows XP hasn’t been successful in the corporate marketplace because – until SP2 – it was a festering pile of shit, and after SP2 (when it was just a pile of shit) most corporates have chosen to wait on the never-ending promise that is Vista (probably not realising that it wouldn’t be ready for primetime until the start of 2008.
One of the things I enjoy about your debating style is that when you want to drag up an example of something that Windows allegedly had as a concept fifteen years ago, it was a genuine innovation (even if it didn’t work). Whereas if Apple had a concept fifteen years ago, it doesn’t matter until it’s a shipping product.
I would say ‘feel free to ignore any of these points’, but I know that would be redundant.
“save it until the burners are available for a Mac. You can also create an HD-DVD project now and save it until the burners are available. “
Are you saying you can’t author a DVD on a PC, if so, put it down here in black and white.
And with Blu-Ray you can’t create the disk on an Apple notebook today. When will you stop flogging this particularly dead horse.
If I said something like you can do this on Windows/Linux in preparation to actually do it in the future when the platform supports finishing the job, I doubt you’d let that one past.
“got adopted at a pretty prolific rate by companies desperate to move away from Windows 95, “
More evidence that they had an incentive to move in that case, so did it somewhat quickly and have less of an incentive now. keep talking, you’ll eventually make my point for me.
“similar product to Expose existed in 1990 – the era of Windows 3.0”
No I said the idea existed, and was implemented in a more limited form. Doesn’t change the fact that there is Expose like software for Windoes today, which you denied.
Some advice, when you find yourself in the bottom of a hole, stop digging.
“text-to-speech”
In Windows since the 90’s. Available in DOS/Windows forever, heck even available on an Apple II (very crude of course).
Yes, that’s why for our clients, when we have to specify a Windows system for someone with special needs, it invariably costs several thousand pounds to achieve the same thing we can achieve with the Macintosh for next to nothing.
Having text-to-speech is not the same thing as the Macintosh’s Voiceover software and, if you had any knowledge of the platform, you’d know that.
Of course, you could go and buy JAWS or whatever.
Of course, because you obviously have more money than you know what to do with, it’s not a problem to go and spend thousands bringing your Windows system to the same level as a Mac. Just as you could go and load your system with a load of add-ins that just take up more processing cycles and that have to maintained. But, thankfully, there are around users of around 20 million Macintoshes (probably around 50 million people globally) who have a more common-sense way of dealing with life and find it easier to buy something that works from the moment you take it home.
BTW, the nephew of one of my friends was recently in the US and had a computer (a Compaq Presario laptop) purchased for him by his father. He got it home and, before he’d even connected it to the Internet, it was reporting trojans and other ‘issues’. We can only assume that the dealer in the States had demonstrated its Internet abilities to someone in-store. So much for security not being a problem and so much for stupidity being a British problem. But I’m sure you’ll find a way of calling him stupid, despite the fact that he’s an Oxford honours graduate (in a proper subject, not media studies or basket weaving or whatever American ‘colleges’ are currently handing out correspondance degrees for).
Oh, the idea existed.
Oh sorry, I thought someone had actually done some work and created something. I didn’t realise that all you were saying was that some people who used Windows said “wouldn’t it be fabulous if we could do such-and-such”.
But I forgot that Windows ‘people’ have lots of ideas: they just need Apple’s developers to turn them into reality.
Thanks for making our point for us. Maybe you should stop digging now.
Also, you’re contradicting yourself: Either corporates are slow to move – in which case, isn’t five years long enough unless XP is rubbish. Or they’re quick on the uptake, in which case, XP is rubbish. Either way, XP is a failure in the corporate space – a fact that even some Microsoft people have conceded.
So the OS that you have spent this entire thread promoting is an OS that the corporate world has largely ignored, but you’d like 20 million Mac users – who are mainly private consumers/user-choosers – to give it a go if Apple should spontaneously disappear into another dimension. Why should they do something that the Microsoft ‘faithful’ are unwilling to do? I’m confused…
Here’s a thought: You’re obviously an intelligent man, why don’t you go and hang out at some CIO conventions and convince them that life would be better if they migrated from Windows 2000 and NT4 to Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 – you should have no problem getting a speaking engagement and it would have more effect on Windows XP than the lousy 40-50 million people that Apple’s user base represents. I could get some contacts for you if you’d like, but you’d have to promise to turn your charisma down a notch or two.
By the way, just for the uneducated, which is the Windows laptop that has FW800 on the motherboard?
“By the way, just for the uneducated, which is the Windows laptop that has FW800 on the motherboard?”
Firewire 400 as you know is built in on most laptops today. Firewire 800 can be added to any laptop with a CardBus Card.
What speed is it on the brand new MacBook (not pro)? How about on the new iMac?
Did Apple in their genius forget to include it?
Stop wanking off and pretending that Apple widely implements this stuff…
I guess it’ll come out on the MacBook and iMac when the Blu-Ray drive does, right? but now the OS on those machines is READY to use FW800 Right? You can probably even get READY to transfer data and video over it when it does come standard on one of those Macs… I bet you’ll tell me iLife gets READY to to this better than any other piece of software that gets READY to use non existing hardware.
So again a BAD choice for a comparison because you’re saying:
“An Apple can’t be replaced by a PC because, even despite the lack of real advantages for most people, and the fact that the Apple consumer line of Macs doesn’t bother with the technology, if I want to, I can get Firewire 800 on both….”
“Oxford honours graduate “
Yep probably let the subscription expire. Not using antivirus means sooner or later you will catch a virus on Windows, not disputing that. Not using a modern antivirus which also catches spyware means you must run a free antispyware program. not disputing that.
“Also, you’re contradicting yourself: Either corporates are slow to move – in which case, isn’t five years long enough unless XP is rubbish.”
Many corporates run XP today, some do not.
But that’s irrelevant. The fact that some corporate customers are not upgrading their Win2k, whatever the underlying reason is, is NOT an argument as to why the world would miss Apple. If anything it strengthens the argument that they would NOT miss Apple.
Right, seeing as this thread has now disappeared of MDN’s front-page (and bookmarking this thread so I can speak to an idiot like you is a waste of electrons) and you’ve had enough rope to hang yourself, let’s just put you out of my misery.
1) You’ve said eariler in this thread that security was effectively a canard and that it had been long since solved by the Windows community. However – using your rules of debating – we’ve since established that, since the element of the Windows community that can allegedly disrupt my life (i.e. the business community) has largely ignored Windows XP and are still ‘stuck’ on Win2K, they cannot use you so-called security setup since
a) They do not have Windows firewall
b) They do not have Automatic Updates
2) Even in the Small Business community where Windows XP adoption has been more successful (although not necessarily Windows Server 2003, given that a significant number of installs are achieved through Small Business Server), many companies are still running SBS 4.5 or SBS 2000 because there wasn’t enough ‘novel’ useful technology to justify SBS 2003.
Again, Automatic Updates are not available in either of these products.
3) Even if Automatic Updates were available in any of these pre-XP/2003 products, the business community doesn’t use Automatic Updates in case their systems land up downloading something from Microsoft that ‘breaks’ another application. This even applies to anti-virus definitions, which get checked against a small ‘control’ group before they’re rolled out to the whole corporate network.
I’m surprised you don’t know this, as you’re obviously far ahead of me and my knowledge of IT in business.
Instead, business customers either use SMS at the corporate end or WSUS (Windows Software Update Services) at the SME/SMB end. At that point – as a business user – you’re reliant on your IT support to keep you up to date. And most corporate IT functions are so far up their own asses – rather like yourself – that they move at a snail’s pace, and most SMBs only call on an external support function when something goes wrong, because they’re too tight to pay for a retained level of service.
Most SMEs simply allow LiveUpdate (or the McAfee equivalent) to keep them up to date for virus definitions, not realising that LiveUpdate actually only updates once a week and that – for real protection – you need to manually download and install the definitions files, otherwise you’re actually out of date for six days out of seven.
So, the long and short of it is that – far from having security dealt with in any reasonable way – the business community generally and the Small Business community specifically are probably far more responsible for the viruses, spyware and adware that permeate the Windows world and – by implication – sometimes ruin the performance of the Internet for those of us who weren’t stupid enough to enter your inbred monoculture.
4) FW800 is a pro option and, as such, only gets implemented on pro machines. I can’t imagine why it isn’t on the original 15″ MacBook Pro, but – using your logic – if you need it, you’ll buy a 17″.
5) I could buy it on a CardBus card, but then I’d probably have to power every device with its own power supply, which is why I prefer it on the motherboard. You’d know that because you’ve used it of course. Or are you just recommending things without knowing how they work? Anyway, I just wanted to check whether I’d have to pay yet more money over the stocker price to play in the Windows world of fun and you’ve just confirmed it so thanks.
6) Yep probably let the subscription expire. Not using antivirus means sooner or later you will catch a virus on Windows, not disputing that. Not using a modern antivirus which also catches spyware means you must run a free antispyware program. not disputing that.
And finally, before I wave goodbye to this thread, you’ve just proved you don’t/can’t read or comprehend simple statements.
Read what I said again (I’ll obviously have to shout, because it’s the only way you’ll hear):
IT WAS INFECTED BEFORE HE TOOK IT OUT OF THE BOX AND BEFORE HE CONNECTED IT TO THE INTERNET.
YOU CAN”T UPDATE THE SUBSCRIPTION BEFORE YOU CONNECT IT TO THE INTERNET.
SO THE IMPLICATION IS THAT THE DEALER – SOME FUCKWIT IN NEW YORK, POSSIBLY A FRIEND OF YOURS – TOOK IT OUT OF THE BOX AND USED IT AS A DEMO MACHINE AND THEN (SOMEWHAT DISHONESTLY) SOLD IT AS A NEW MACHINE. SO AN AMERICAN WHO’S BOTH STUPID AND A CROOK, WHO’D HAVE THOUGHT IT.
THE ONLY OTHER OPTION IS THAT IT WAS INFECTED WHEN IT LEFT THE FACTORY.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I’M SAYING. OR DO I HAVE TO DRAW A DIAGRAM.
between Dell and Apple is that if Apple actually got into financial trouble, somebody (or a group of somebodies) actually has a reason to save it.
Apple has…
A customer list
A portfolio of technology/intellectual property
Brand recognition
The iPod platform
A solid reputation
Dell has…
A customer list
The phone numbers of some people in Taiwan who can get components cheaply
“b) They do not have Automatic Updates”
No automatic updates on 2k? You just keep proving your ignorance.
“checked against a small ‘control’ group before they’re rolled out to the whole corporate network.”
As you point out, the mechanism exists for an IT department to vet updates first if they care, or not if they don’t choose to.
What are you saying, “The world would miss Apple because Microsoft has really flexible options for keeping systems up to date?”
Likewise, if they deem a firewall necessary for 2k systems, that’s easy to implement.
Symantec likewise has a solution to allow the pushing of definitions from an internal server, if that’s what you want to do.
“as you’re obviously far ahead of me and my knowledge of IT in business. “
Clearly, without a doubt.
Every time I hear something back from you, that picture of the Coyote comes into my head, feet spinning in air, having run past the end of your knowledge.
Almost every one of your positions contains major factual errors. Not small errors, not a difference in opinion, but major factual errors.
But like the coyote, you just keep coming back and back and back with the same result each time.
“inbred monoculture.”
Funny that a Brit would make jokes about an inbred monoculture. I know inbreeding is one of your national pastimes.
” I can’t imagine why it isn’t on the original 15″ “
Just admit it was a BAD choice of an example as to why anyone would miss Apple. Spinning feet…
“recommending things without knowing how they work?”
Funny given the ignorance you show of the products you’re discussing in your attempted rebuttals, that you would say such a thing.
” SO AN AMERICAN WHO’S BOTH STUPID AND A CROOK, WHO’D HAVE THOUGHT IT.”
Either way, that British people are stupid, or that this American dealer used a machine as a demo one then sold it as new is not a reason why the world would miss Apple computer.
“if Apple actually got into financial trouble, somebody (or a group of somebodies) actually has a reason to save it.”
Yes, those people were Microsoft, and the reason was to protect Mac Office revenues and to avoid antitrust problems.
Practically I think if Apple gets into financial trouble again, you won’t find anyone rushing in to revive it, they may pick the bones, but not revive it.
The reason is that as long as the iPod continues to be successful, then Apple probably won’t go down, and IF it becomes unsuccessful, it would be because somebody (or a group of somebodies) will have walloped them in the market, so there would be not much of an iPod business to resuscitate.
Same on the PC side, if Apple is successful with Intel Macs they won’t be in any need of resuscitation. If they are not and get into financial trouble then that part of the business is probably past hope.
Before somebody flames me because they think I’m saying Apple will get into financial trouble, read it again, I’m saying what would likely happen IF Apple were to get into financial trouble.