“One part of last week’s column on Apple’s Boot Camp that slipped past many readers was the idea that Apple would actually start shipping OEM versions of Windows Vista with at least some of its computers. I believe that will be the case and, if so, it is a big deal, and could lead to Apple becoming the biggest vendor of Windows computers to business, which I think is a hoot,” Robert X. Cringely writes for PBS. John Dvorak’s idea “that Apple will drop OS X for Windows [is] not at all what I think will happen. Apple isn’t going to throw away its clearest point of differentiation and greatest technical advantage just to become another Windows OEM. That would make them little better than Sony and Sony can out-manufacture Apple any day. Where Dvorak is wrong is he believes Microsoft’s version of the story — that Apple will abandon OS X, at least for business, replacing it with Windows Vista. After all, isn’t that what this Boot Camp stuff is all about, enabling the choice of OSX or Windows? Not really.”
“The version of Boot Camp that will ship with OS X 10.5 will likely be very different from the version people are playing with today. The actual shipping version, I predict, will have full OS virtualization so that both operating systems can run side-by-side and a user can cut and paste data from one to the other. Apple may have already developed this capability, or maybe they’ll license or buy it from outside. Parallel Workstation 2.1 sure looks nice from Parallels, Inc. Maybe Apple should buy the whole company,” Cringely writes. “If Apple’s intent is to do virtualization, then why bother with this dual boot version of Boot Camp? My best guess is to throw off Microsoft until it is too late.”
“Don’t be surprised, either, to see that OS X 10.5 has a new kernel, finally giving up Mach and a big piece of its NeXTstep heritage. I write this for one thing — because OS X has kernel problems and needs some help, especially with swap space. I say it also because of the departure of Avie Tevanian, Apple’s chief software technology officer, and the guy who hung onto Mach for so long,” Cringely writes. “I have no insider knowledge here, but it isn’t hard to imagine an instance where Avie’s favored position with Steve Jobs was finally undermined by someone pointing out just these problems, so Avie had to go. That’s the way it is with Steve, who sees his people as either part of the solution or part of the problem.”
“So where Dvorak sees an Apple repudiation of OS X for Windows Vista, I see an Apple business strategy that combines OS X and Vista. Nearly all of Apple’s own applications, like iLife and iWork, will still be OS X-only, as will be thousands of native OS X apps, so there will be many opportunities to lure Vista users into the light,” Cringely writes. “Given Microsoft’s difficulties with data security and its long history of troubled OS introductions, there is the very real possibility that the Apple version of Vista will be by far the most stable. For awhile it might be the ONLY stable version. So Apple could, in a way, be Microsoft’s savior.”
Full article here.
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Related articles:
Cringely predicts Apple Boot Camp for non-Apple PCs to allow Mac OS X to run on generic x86 boxes – April 07, 2006
Dvorak: Will Apple ditch Mac OS X for Microsoft’s Windows? – February 16, 2006
“Sony can out-manufacture Apple any day” ? ? ? so why dont they? or do they mean quantity wise? anyway, yes this all sounds quite good, lets just hope it does all go to plan, i love it when a plan comes together!
This exactly what I thought. Have both run side by side and let the user decide which is better.
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I know my choice.
Cringely has taken some heat in this forum lately, but his take makes sense. Apple is a business, not a philosophy, way-of-life or a belief system. Apple’s core business is hardware. Selling XP or Vista at Apple stores to go with a new MacTel, for customers who want it, is good business. It’s profit with little investment and little risk.
Where is everybody?
Or is everyone just sooooo bored of Boot Camp stories already?
OK, so XP might entice a few more switchers, but big deal. It won’t create a mass migration.
But what about the iPhone?
Remember the original strategy behind the iPod? It was Mac-only, as a carrot to lure switchers. Part of the “digital hub” strategy. It didn’t work, and since the iPod was a hugely profitable little gadget, Apple decided to sell them directly to Windows users and make a fortune.
OK, so now for Round II. Apple will introduce the mobile phone we’ve all been waiting for. And it will be Mac only. If you’re a PC user, you will HAVE to get a Mac to use it.
So why does this strategy have a chance this time around? Because now the Mac can run XP. The PC user isn’t asked to switch, merely supplement. To dip a toe, if you will, into OS X.
The built-in iSight camera may be part of the same strategy. Says Joe PC user: “Wow, I can have video-conferencing that actually works, I can have the new iPhone, and I don’t have to give up Windows? Sign me up!”
Apple then sells more hardware, which is exactly the point. Taking, say, a quarter-point each from Dell, Sony, HP, and Lenovo may not seem like much, but the end result of increasing Mac’s share by a full point, profitably, is huge.
What’s sad, though, is that Apple has to innovate circles around its hardware competitors just to gain a small gains in sales. It’s not a just world, though, is it?
Andy says, ‘”Sony can out-manufacture Apple any day” ? ? ? so why dont they? or do they mean quantity wise?’
Apple strength is in design and everybody knows it. Apple’s manufacturing capacity has always been an issue. Far too often they have not been able to manufacture enough product. However, having too little supply is probably better than having too much.
Besides, I don’t really know if Apple manufactures anything in thier own factories anymore. It appears all manufacturing is farmed out to 3rd party companies that work to Apple’s standards and design. This is not a huge issue unless you need to rapidly change plans.
Eh! I don’t see there being a kernel swap. Avie probably left because OS X should be enough. He just doesn’t want any association with winblows. No matter how distant the association is.
First post!
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Andy,
He’s talking about Sony’s manufacturing prowess, not their innovation expertise. Sony is after all one of the largest manufacturing companies on the planet, many times larger than Apple in terms of the flood of product coming off their lines. Unfortunately for them they suffer some of the same problems that Microsoft does, most notably lack of focus. Like Microsoft hey’re absolutely stuffed to the gills with talented engineers but management has no idea how to harness their gifts.
F! Windows I installed boot camp “just to see” and Winders SUCKS A$$ as usual. I’m sick and tired of hearing about xp and MicroSucks and an OS that is not even shipping or might never for that matter! Let’s get back to OS X!
Kernal Panic!!! Don’t tell me your Mac has never crashed because of it.
Sony has many manufacturing plants – Apple does not. Apple knows what they want and has learned how to use 3rd party mfr to achieve low cost, flexibility and profit. Sony has lots of capability but they’ve lost their creativity. Apple has learned how to partner with other companies (like Intel) and take advantage of their engineering talents. Sony has held their nose too high in the air for too long and offended partners with their holier than thou attitude. It’s almost as though one of Apples former CEOs has taken over Sony and they are meandering around but not doing anything exciting, great or innovative. Sony has let the edge slip to Korea, Singapore and China. I looked at some new Sony Vaio PCs at CompUSA yesterday and they were looking a lot like cheap, bland mini-tower PCs without enough ram. I had a Vaio a few years ago and Sony support was much worse than Dell or Gateway. Sony might be able to out-manufacture Apple, but they don’t have any hot designs TO manufacture so none of that makes any difference in the real world. Apple has cool stuff, fair prices and a good support system in place to help customers deal with high tech gadget problems. I think Apple is hitting strong on all cylinders.
“Where is everybody?
Or is everyone just sooooo bored of Boot Camp stories already?”
Outside, away from their computers, interacting with actual humans in real time without a microprocessor interface?
I used XP from the very day it went retail until I switched to OS X in December 2004. Trust me, no real Apple user wants XP unless there is no other software option available. You have been warned.
Now, whether there are going to be that many XP users buying a presumed $1,999 and up Intel/OS X desktop, say, to “try” OS X is rediculous. At least rediculous when the option is a Vista-only $599 Dull. Maybe I’m missing something, but I still think all of the current buzz is”preaching to the choir” as the saying goes.
I’d pretty much go along with all this, especially the kernal part (Mach being lovely for muli-core (albeit somewhat ahead of its time on this front), but taking a big performance hit for servers etc.). Go Apple.
Teflon: I had NONE, ZERO, NADA NOT ONE SINGEL kernel panic with either Cheetah, Puma, nor Panther. I had one kernel panic with Jaguar and I trace that to running neither Disk Warrior nor Disk Utility before running the 10.2.8 update.
Tiger OTOH oh what a sickly beast you be. Since I bought my new Dual G5 with Tiger I’ve experienced well over a dozen gray screens of death. INCLUDING TWO YESTERDAY. A happy camper with Tiger I am not.
where are the Apple cheerleaders??
“Go Apple! Go Apple! Go Apple!”
Give me an A
Give me a P
Give me a P
Give me a L
Give me an E
What does that spell ?!
“Like any good dinner guest, President Hu will not come empty handed. The Chinese government issued a decree two weeks ago that all PCs will need to have a licensed operating system software installed before leaving the factory gates in an effort to crack down on piracy.
As a result, three Chinese PC manufacturers announced plans to buy a total of over $400 million worth of Microsoft Windows operating system software over the next three years and Lenovo Group Ltd., China’s largest PC maker, is expected to announce a similar deal on Monday, organizers said.”
Thats a lot of Windows!
MW-value. As in dubious value.
Sorry Teflon…. Never had a Kernal Panic. Just always keep on top of my routine maintenance.
I remember a rumor saying that Apple would also develop some program that would allow prgrams developed on XCode to run on Windows. This would seem to be a part of their plan, so most apps are developed for OS X first, and any programs that are still Windows-only can be run with Boot Camp. Boot Camp may turn out to less of a big deal than we originally thought.
“the Apple version of Vista will be by far the most stable”
What an idea! There will not be an Apple version of Vista.
But running Vista more or less sandboxed in an OS X virtual machine could prove to be most stable environment to run it.
I don’t believe Apple is going to swap out the kernel. Too much low level hardware support comes from the use of Mach. Not to mention the whole capability for universal binaries. I think a kernel swap is out of the question at this point. But I do wonder what is going to happen now that Apple seems to be restricting the Darwin source code. I suspect, now that FreeBSD 6 is out, that we will be seeing a lot of that work getting merged into OSX Leopard. It will be exciting to see what happens. But I am nearly 99.9% sure that Apple won’t be doing a kernel swap. And even if they did, which they obviously can’t and won’t, it would more than likely be to a BSD kernel anyway.
I (heart) Apple.
I (heart) Windows.
I (heart) Windows on Apple.
First step: get in the door, then….
Windows XP on my Mac? Is everyone so stupid?
Only PC brainwashed or ignorant people still think XP is good for humanity.
I resent even the smallest piece of MS on my machine or at work.
MS is THE VIRUS!
MS is THE FRAUD!
Kill XP!
Go, go APPLE!
Free the world from the Gates conspiracy!
MDN wanted: “BG is wanted for fraud!”
I am going to screw up this web site and Mac culture in general by porting Windows Xp to the intel based Macs.
Once I do that you are going to be spammed for weeks on end on how the quality of a Mac user’s computing experience is based upon Microsft and solely Microsoft.
I will destroy Mac culture!!!
Muaaaaahahahaha!
Apple would actually start shipping OEM versions of Windows Vista with at least some of its computers.
Apple is NOT going to ship Windows with any Mac. Let’s nix this idea right here and now.
If anything, Apple might resell XP installs. But the chances of Apple selling anything with XP bundled or pre-installed are zero.
Kernal (sic) Panic!!! Don’t tell me your Mac has never crashed because of it.
Not since 10.0!
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At least rediculous when the option is a Vista-only $599 Dull.
It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.
$599 might buy you a Vista Dull that boots to the desktop. But to do anything, aren’t you going to need 3+ghz, multi-cores, a few gigs of ram, and a top-end video card? If Dell can deliver those in a complete system for $599, yikes. But I’m thinking that Vista will be such a hog, PC makes will either have to spec up & raise prices, or have loss leaders.
Then again, by the time vista ships, those might be standard specs for a low-end system anyway. We will see.
>rediculous.
Is that a word?
>
> rediculous.
> Is that a word?
Nope. It’s a wird.
Teflon:
I have not experienced a kernel panic since OS X 10.0.
Apple running on cheap commodity hardware booting Windows XP. How INNOVATIVE!
Apple’s new motto; “Think.. Me too.”
Cringely writes. “Given Microsoft’s difficulties with data security and its long history of troubled OS introductions, there is the very real possibility that the Apple version of Vista will be by far the most stable..”
A turd is still a turd, no matter whose hand is it’s in!
The wholesale replacement of the Mach Kernel could be for real, would be welcome, but is unlikely. Re-inventing the wheel is difficult and expensive to do unless you want to license other people’s patents. Anyone who has used OS X knows that anything that hangs the finder is a dead-end and brings up the SRBBOD (Spinning Rainbow Beach Ball of Death). Network interrupts come to mind among others.
OS X is better than Windows in most things, but if far from perfect. Universal games running on OS X still lag behind Windows XP on Apple’s own Intel CPU hardware, which ought to tell you that there is work to be done. Even if you do not do games it is an issue. High end games make demands on the graphics software and hardware in a manner similar to many Pro media apps.
Note to Apple- Multi-Thread the Finder. PLEASE.
I use XP daily. I use no AV software on one of my Machines. I wipe the HD clean and reinstall the updated OS, programs and data files from a secure source daily with one click on an icon. It takes about 5 minutes to do the whole process. The machine is just behind a hardware firewall but it is connected to the internet 24/7. I do not have any stability or security problems with that machine.
Having Vista or XP running in Virtualization on OS X would work the same way. It would give the Windows OS great stability with that fresh copy every time it is used and, being in virtualization, it would have the same security as OS X has.
If true, and I think it is true, this is going to be very big.
My 2002 Dual 1GHz G4 has been running OS 10.3 since it came out. This machine was a little flakey under 10.2 (which it came with) but since upgrading to 10.3, it has NEVER KERNAL PANIC’D. Never!
This machine runs from 6AM until 10:45PM every day, 350 days a year, rock solid and reliable. I keep the machine clean because I do a lot of pro work (Photoshop, Final Cut Pro HD, ProTools, Waves plugins, various soft synths) on it and don’t want it glommed up. It’s on the internet everyday also and I’ve had no problems with that. I have not reinstalled my software in well over a year. It just keeps going and going….
The only software I’ve ever had on this machine that gave me any trouble at all is MICROSOFT OFFICE FOR MAC. About half the time, when I started any of the MS apps, it would hang or flake out. The last time I reinstalled (due to a failed original Seagate disk drive) I left out MS Office and have never had another problem since.
MS is the Virus! Truer words were never spoken.
If everyone all of a sudden loves and wants to run XP, what happens when Microsoft releases it’s own ‘Boot Camp” and allows OSX to run on PC’s? End of Apple’s computer division? Hey If Apple do it, Microsoft do it, all be it a little later. A £399 HP running XP or £2000 Mac running XP. Hhmm! Tough choice!
I am still waiting to see a kernal panic and have used 10.3 and 10.4 scince they came out
sounds to me like you have a hardware problem if you get kernal panics regularly
CG5Addict said:
>>Sorry Teflon…. Never had a Kernal Panic. Just always keep on top of my routine maintenance.
It’s kernel, not kernal. But anyway, “routine maintenance” or a lack of it, has no impact on kernel panics. “Routine maintenance” is deleting/rotating large log files, deleting temporary files and repairing permissions. None of these cause kernel panics – which are generally due to improper memory access (caused by bad drivers, other poorly written software, etc). Suggest you learn more about MacOS before spouting forth.
Ever notice how there is no Apple news here anymore?
Just Windows.
Not even iPod news anymore.
There must be serious delays or problems in Apple land.
OK, OK this place has an audience that is hard, HARD to please. “Ridiculous” Now, are you satisfied? Sheez!!
You can’t be serious. You must be a troll.
It’s not even a fair comparison, because MS is a software company.
Please, do not use the interwebs again.
I love Windows news about running on Apple computers!!! Soon we will all be one big happy computer family with OSX and Windows on all computers!
Peace and harmony for all!
“Kernal Panic!!! Don’t tell me your Mac has never crashed because of it.”
Never, ever, ever, had one! Two Macs – a Powerbook and a Cube (hence the name) and neither have ever had one from 10.2-present(10.4.5 – sorry, haven’t updated yet).
Cringley actually presents a coherent argument here (a first for him), albeit an unlikely one. Apple will keep Boot Camp (or whatever it’s called in Leopard), in some form FOREVER! (my prediction) However, they are not about to start selling Vista, XP, or doing major support for either. Boot Camp is, as MDN says, simply a (in)security blanket for fence-sitting switchers, and a REALLY smart marketing strategy!
Go for it Apple and ship new Macs with OSX and Windows. Dell & HP operate with no creativity and slim margins — they won’t know how to respond. They will start yelling to MS to get Vista out the door. The fireworks will be great to watch.
I thought a Windows experience involved a sledgehammer and a shot of Vodka…
RE:
You can’t be serious. You must be a troll.
It’s not even a fair comparison, because MS is a software company.
Please, do not use the interwebs again.
I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that name calling was apparent on this website. I am aware that Microsoft is a software company. Thank you. I am sure that you are aware that Microsoft runs on at least 95% on the world’s computer hardware. PC’s. If Boot Camp is so great that it is going to compel Windows computer hardware users to switch to Mac hardware in my opinion I think that they will release their own version of Boot Camp that will protect their partnerships with these computer manufacturers. Back to my interwbs I go!
I think Microsoft will be busy enough trying to develop workable versions of Vista to be concerned with their own “version” of Boot Camp. By the time MS releases a commercial version of Vista it is likely Apple will have offered a Mac capable of running Windows and OS X simultaneously and with seamless operation.
I posted this before, but I’ll post it here again:
What the Windows XP Start-UP chime sounds like after you have installed XP on a Mac
OK, so now for Round II. Apple will introduce the mobile phone we’ve all been waiting for. And it will be Mac only. If you’re a PC user, you will HAVE to get a Mac to use it.
—
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH you are a friggin MORON..
no way. no way. no way. a CELL PHONE that is limited to a 30 milllion userbase?!
dude.
AHAHHAHAHAHA NEVER.
I honestly don’t know what a kernel panic is since I have never had one.
Can someone post a link showing what a kernel panic looks like?
xcntric, I have some bad news for you.
Even if MS did release their own upside down, backward version of Boot Camp, it CANNOT legally run OS X.
So short story is no Dull or HP or Sony boxes running OS X.
So the choice is either an ultra-ugly, ultra-cheap crap box from Dull (and you get what you pay for) running Windows or Linux only, or a beautifully engineered Mac stocked to the gills with every technology you could ever want, running anything including Visa (if it ever sees the light of day) you like as well as or within the vastly superior OS X.
Hmmm, seems a no brainer to me.
Hey, ©,
Good thing I wasn’t drinking anything when I played that startup sound, or it’d have gotten all over my keyboard!
Thanks for a great chuckle
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Infomercials – there’s a great site on the ‘net called Google. It’s quite clever – if you type “kernel panic” into the little box at the top, you get a page of links back, and the very first one tells you all about kernel panics on MacOS. To make things even easier for you, click on http://www.macmaps.com/kernelpanic.html.
Windows never gets virus infected, it is a virus!
MS should make a version of Windows for Apple, then give their money back to the shareholders and close down
random troll:
Don’t be silly, Microsoft makes a perfectly good set top game system.
All these are not true
thanks for clearing that up
“Some people make things happen. Some people watch what happens. Some people say, ‘Hey, what the hell just happened.'” Apple makes things happen. We readers of MDN watch what happens. Microsoft…
Mach has problems with swap space? That’s news to me. ‘Course, I’ve still got 21 GB available on good ol Macintosh HD thanks to a 400 GB external drive from OWC.
And as kernel panics go… I’ve had maybe 5 or 6 in 4 years, and three of those happened in 1 day due to a reproducible bug in smb.kext trying to connect to an improperly configured Windows file share. (This was 10.2 I think). Hardly what I call a stability problem.
The spinning beach ball may or may not be a problem with the kernel design. The relevant questions are: 1) How good is kernel support for threading and asynchronous IO? 2) How well is that support exposed via various APIs (POSIX, Carbon, Cocoa)? 3) How well does the Finder or any other app take advantage of the available APIs for threading and asynchronous IO?
The issue could be at any of these layers, only 1 of which is really the kernel.
Ironically, I was ACTUALLY thinking Apple would develop a UI for the Windows usage on the Mac..
…what Kevin Rose referred to as the ‘executive layer’
Why?
So that even if you never wanted to use OS X.. you would STILL consider getting Mac hardware.. to get access to the ‘better version of Windows’ available only.. with Mac hardware..
In other words.. the very same slick GUI that Dvorak thought would REPLACE OS X.. would be an option..
Here´s my five cents on what Apple wants to achieve by launching Boot Camp…
One quite common theory is that Apple wants to lure Windows users to buy a Mac that can run both XP and OSX and by experiencing how superior OSX is make them permanent switchers. This implies that it´s Microsoft Apples going after. I think that´s wrong. Apples going after Dell and HP !….
Read more on my blog : http://www.geirwerner.squarespace.com/
Regarding the possibility that Apple MAY change from a Mach kernel to some other kernel — keep in mind that virtualization runs best UNDERNEATH the overlying operating system — a micro-kernel that controls virutalization UNDERNEATH an OS kernel, if you will.
Now that Avie is out, the question becomes one of whether Apple will continue to utilze the Mach (Avie’s baby from his Carnegie-Mellon days) quasi-micro-kernel, or go with something fresh . . . something that can handle low-level virtualization tasks competently . . .
And, then there are the Be OS folks that Apple hired a few years back . . . hmmmmm — a Be OS-like BSD kernel with a micro-kernel running underneath it all to properly control the simultaneous virtualized instances of multiple operating systems — hmmmmmmm . . .
Microsoft won the first battle for the desktop. That was about 13 years ago. The war is not with Microsoft. Increasing market share does not involve Microsoft at all. It involves other PC makers. The war is with Dell and HP etc. This is the only way to erode “Windows” market share.