“According to one unconfirmed source, Federal Express may be looking to make a significant purchase of Macs to replace their current PCs,” MacRumors.com reports. “Reportedly, the move is under consideration due to the recent wave of viruses that have swept the PC world.”
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: If this turns out to be factual, it would make HP’s announcement of rebranding Apple’s iPod seem like minor news. In other words, this would be HUGE!
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Man… THAT would get the business world to investigate why their IT chimps haven’t explored mac as a viable alternative. FedEx?!?! Geez. I’m just stunned at the prospect.
HUGE? No Kidding! More like, Astronomical!
It’s from Macrumors, so take with a pinch of salt for the moment. Still, even if FedEx are just looking to insert a few Macs to keep their business running when their Windows machines are out of action, this would be incredible news for Apple if it comes to something.
Ridiculous.
Massive MCSE zombie staff.
Massive investment in Intel based equipment.
Not that it couldn’t be done, but it would require “Thinking Different” on a scale that hasn’t been seen since Copernicus tried to convince Christians that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
Would be cool but lets wait and see this it’s confirmed otherwise, a rumor will be a rumor.
I live in suburban Memphis, home of FedEx, and will keep my eyes and ears open. They are in the process of buying Kinko’s, maybe the Macs are for them.
“Not that it couldn’t be done, but it would require “Thinking Different” on a scale that hasn’t been seen since Copernicus tried to convince Christians that the Earth revolved around the Sun.”
Yeah, right, the Earth goes round the Sun does it? Ha ha, very funny. Next you’ll be telling me it isn’t flat.
MacRumors isn’t exactly the most reliable source of information and they don’t quote any particular sources as to how they came up with this, so I too will take this with a big grain of salt. However, if it did turn out to be true, this would indeed be huge. The critics certainly couldn’t use the baseless logic that Macs can’t power a large business anymore for damn sure.
“Ha ha, very funny. Next you’ll be telling me it isn’t flat.”
No, of course it is not flat. Anybody who has seen mountains and canyons can tell that. Earth is like a bumpy blueberry pancake with extra maple syrup (Hmmmm, pancake! *drool*). While we are talking science, let me tell you gravity is a myth too.
Too bad Copernicus was not part of Apple’s Think Different campaign.
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A significant purchase of Macs could mean anything. With a company the size of Fedex, switching their marketing department to Macs could involve a significant purchase.
It almost surely does not mean servers or mission-critical machines. It’s probably a group of people who receive a lot of email attachments and cannot just delete them without reading them.
Hey, who do you think they named Copertino after?
Copernicus was right there at the start of Apple…
Maybe the Macs are for Fed Ex’s IT department – that way at least they can remain online through all the viruses.
Nobody <b>”While we are talking science, let me tell you gravity is a myth too.”<b>
Oh I know that. If you look really closely, everything is covered in tiny pieces of Velcro�, except the Sun, which is kept in orbit by an enormous Jai Alai scoop.
Oh bugger, missed out a /
“The Earth goes round the Sun? That’s just not Biblically correct!”
– Jerry Falwell
I worked for Kinkos before the FEDEX takeover, the Macs there were ill-used, underused, and generally ignored. Every year there were fewer Macs in the line-up. Those that were replaced ran like crap because of all the bundled software they patched together.
If this is indeed true, it will be a few years down the road before we say a change on this front.
RE Earth/Christians etc…
God isn’t really confused about how he made the earth and universe. In fact he made it/us for a purpose. A much greater discovery than earth revolving around the sun is figuring out what that purpose is.
randall
The Kinkos angle could be at the root of this rumor.
I have always found it interesting that Kinkos has increasingly relied on Windows PCs to equip their graphic design work stations in store.
Its no wonder that most serious graphic designers have found other means to output their work than using the lame setups found at most Kinkos stores. The bulk of Kinkos DTP customers are the soccer moms and wannabe graphic designers with their ghastly clip art and green text printed on purple paper.
;o)
Wintel and graphic design is one of the biggest oxymorons I can think of in today’s world.
Guy’s, I think this is great news, however, more of this business can be had if Apple played their cards right. A problem that has plagued Apple in the business world has been perception. Apple products have been perceived as expensive and more geared for creative markets, than for business. Their products are typically more expensive than the average PC. Business’s buy in bulk, they want the cheapest computer they can buy. These computers will be used by not just one person but several. Kind of like a rental car, if it gets you from point A to point B it’ll work. Buy the cheapest ones possible. (That’s one reason you don�t see very many BMW rental cars.) They want to buy as many as they can as cheaply as they can. Quality doesn�t matter. They don’t care about the enclosure being aluminum, they would rather have cheap plastic and a more conservative box than an incredibly cool looking machine. That’s business. I can’t imagine seeing G5’s or iMacs sitting at your local bank or wherever computers are used. They just don�t fit in. That is the first issue.
The second issue is the perception that Macintosh computers are “cutsie” and “cool”. Businesses don�t want their employees getting caught up in “cute” or “cool” machines, It would be more of a distraction than anything else. Why do you think Windows is so bland, yet businesses snap them up. Businesses were very resistant to the Windows XP GUI when it first came out because they didn�t like all the frills and colors. Windows added the option to go back to the more conservative feel of Windows 98 and most businesses chose that option. Why??? Who knows. Apple is the epitome of frills and cool. Businesses are the opposite, unless of course your business relies on creativity like marketing, print media etc. Then cool is a prerequisite and therefore required. This is where you see all the Macs. Continued . . . .
. . . . continued. My idea is this: Apple needs to do for business what it did for education. A completely new machine dedicated to business, marketed for business. (Remember the eMac?) Cheaper components, more conservative look and feel, plastic black enclosure possibly? A boxier, cheaper to produce enclosure and monitor would suit business just fine. They don�t need, nor want all the frills. I think this is one of the biggest issues with corporations overlooking the Macintosh and considering an inferior and bland OS like Linux? The Mac is ready now, Linux is not and may never be. Besides, it�s impossible to use as a desktop OS. Why even consider it? Probably because it�s cheap and appears to be a similarly conservative alternative to Windows. We all know it doesn�t compare to the Mac yet business�s continue to overlook Apple as a computer supplier. Why, why why??? This is why I think the Mac is overlooked by business. It�s all in perception. I think they need to market to big business with a cheaper, more conservative machine, dedicated to business with an OS that lacks all the frills, a watered down OSX possibly, to begin to attract these large corporations. A completely different marketing approach with dedicated hardware & software solely for corporations. Based on OSX of course. Opinions anyone?
I don’t know about you, but people in business already add their own colors, and “coolness” to the Windows app. I think if anything, it would make the bank more modern looking and less like sweatshop.
Jesus Christ is your savior.
Hey I’d settle for FedEx’s shipping software just working on a Mac.
Heck, I’d settle for FedEx’s website working on Safari.
MacRumors actually has a VERY good record.
That means they tend to judge things accurately–knowing what to present with a grain of sale and what to present with certainty.
They call this rumor “unconfirmed,” so that’s all it is. An interesting possibility but a long way off. Even if such a thing is being considered, there’s no certainty the plan will go forward.
It certainly makes sense though!
Won�t ever happen. It would be such a huge change and investment for fedex worldwide.
Only thing I see them doing is adding a Mac as a test at Kinkos to compliment the windoze
A much greater discovery than earth revolving around the sun is figuring out what that purpose is.
You be sure to let us know when you find out now, you hear?
I thoiught it was Galileo…earth…sun.
RE: You be sure to let us know when you find out now, you hear?
We were made to be loved by God and to love him – and Jesus is the way. Everything else leaves us looking for more or something else. That’s all I know.
There are two issues about the machines for the bank. For the front of house, an iMac would be ideal. The cashier/teller can easily turn the display for a customer to see etc, they have a small footprint and they look nice. Banks like to look nice to their customers.
But behind the facade, in the cubicles in the office blocks, they don’t want to pay for style. They want headless so that the monitor and system unit can be replaced independently. You have a monitor die in an eMac, you change the whole unit. You have a monitor die on a Dell, you just swap out the monitor.
Cheap and cheerful headless low end mac is needed.
Jesus Saves.
But Forsberg gets the rebound, shoots…and SCORES!
Actually I believe in the second coming of Steve Jobs,
damm that sounded perverted…
Second comming of Jesus, oh shit I’m headed to hell for sure now!
Flame away!
Could it be, just like with the invading martians in War of the Worlds, that Microsoft, so seemingly all powerful, is laid waste to the hands of mere viruses.
I used to be a major flamer on Christian topics, but then the weirdest thing happened: I became a Christian. It’s like one of the movies where someone is underwater drowning and suddenly are able to get to the surface and breathe. That’s what your former life looks like when God has mercy on you: like you were drowning.
Well, FedEx revolutionized shipping, and they had to do that by doing a lot of small things right, so if anybody can do it by adopting Mac, why wouldn’t it be them? The most logical candidate.
God always knew the Earth revolves around the Sun. The fact that everyone on Earth at some time in the past got it wrong, then found out the truth and changed their way of thinking just illustrates what can happen when we listen to what God has been saying to us all along.
Re: Fallwell. Yeah, like you really expect us to believe Fallwell said something like that? You want us to believe that,no doubt, because you must have some big thing against him, but I would suggest that you just get a life. Try asking God to bless your life, and he will. Won’t happen overnight, just start with little things. If He wants you to have what you asked for, you will get them, and you will recognize them. Then go for bigger things.
“Oh I know that. If you look really closely, everything is covered in tiny pieces of Velcro�, except the Sun, which is kept in orbit by an enormous Jai Alai scoop.” – Dave H
No way, Velcro is a modern discovery. The universe can’t be covered with Velcro, unless the Velcro inventor actually patented something that had prior art. What is a Jai Alai, anyway?
Brought this rumor up to my buddy who is IT for Fed ex. He said they are testing servers now. They need software written for their day to day. He said it was a huge secret so , everyone at fed ex knows.
You guys should go see the “Passion of Christ”, and see just how Christ suffered, bled, and died and beared the burden for all our sins. Then make ridiculous comments about him. No flames, just forgiveness. If he was able to forgive the soldiers putting the nails in his hands and feet, then surely I can forgive you. This movie is not entertainment, it is an experience.
here come the self righteous christians.
remember the thread topic guys?
They won’t be sorry with the new G5 servers, and the X Server OS is much improved. The real win will be the cost savings over Windows server implementations. IIS is trash and SQL Server is laughable – compared to Apache and MySQL. Go FedEx!!!!
“You be sure to let us know when you find out now, you hear?”
Without a universe (or multiverse), can there be a god? It sounds like that question about falling tree and nobody around.
Jai Alai is the answer to a crossword puzzle question.
RE: here come the self righteous christians.
That’s a criticism real Christians hear a lot, but the truth is that anyone who is really a Christian knows what a wreck his life is and is only “righteous” (his relationship with God) by what God has done – not anything they have done themselves. Sharing a truth (whether it’s about macs or God) doesn’t make you self-righteous. I don’t know about you, but I ask for help from others (that know something I don’t through experience) all the time.
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RE: what is Jai Alai
jai alai[hI�lI��] Pronunciation Key, handball-like game of Spanish Basque origin, now also popular in Latin America and Florida. It is also called pelota. Jai alai is played on a three-walled court with a hard rubber ball that must be hurled against the front wall with the cesta, a wicker basket attached to the player’s arm. The court is about 175 ft (53 m) long, 40 ft (12.2 m) wide, and 40 ft (12.2 m) high. Spectators sit behind a wire fence or plexiglass wall on the fourth side. To their right is the front wall, or frontis. The object is to hurl the ball against the front wall in such a way that it cannot be returned. The ball may hit the side or rear wall, but not the spectator wall, before striking the frontis. The ball, which reaches speeds of 150 mph (240 kph), is caught in the cesta and thrown in a continuous motion. Jai alai is played as either singles or doubles with scoring similar to that of court handball. Betting on games is popular; parimutuel wagering is legal in a few U.S. states. It is also popular in parts of Europe, the Caribbean, and the Philippines.
Those who do not understand the principles of the true religion, which is Messianic Judaism, have no legitimate claim to disparage the faith. Be intellectually honest and open minded, if you dare. Diligently seek how a personal relationship with the Almighty has been provided and you will not be disappointed. But please spare us your prejudices and ignorance, it is repetitive and boring.
This is great news if it can become true. Tokyo University just switched to all Macintosh recently.
But I am a bit confused. What the heck does FedEx have to do with religion?
This is kinda wierd. Amazing how some subjects can be tied in with anything.
e.g.
“Nice day today.” “Yes it is, and do you know why? Because God loves you”
or
“Nice day today.” “Yes it is, and do you know why? Because I use a Mac so I don’t have to worry about viruses.”
Please remember the topic here. Religious zealots, take your crutch elsewhere… hey, maybe to a fundamentalist christian forum. I don’t want to be preached at on this forum.
Go away.
Respect to everyone who gains peace from following Christianity. For those who criticise, I’d just like to make one point. Never confuse a church, a group of people who through sharing a common belief help and support each other like a family, with The Church, a political organisation with two thousand years of very dodgy actions to account for. You may have not believe yourself, but it obviously works for a lot of people, and that is pretty much a positive thing in my book.
Anyway, now I’ve been all serious for a bit I need to lighten up, especially as I’m still reeling from Nobody’s desecration of my entire belief system about Velcro�. He doesn’t yet realise, but I will have him burned as a heretic for that comment. All I need is for the Velcro� faithful to increase in number above zero, and he is ashes.
(Note to FBI. That isn’t a serious death threat. I am joking.)
Didn’t God disappear in a puff of logic ?
Christ did exist, but he wasn’t the son of God, he was a Buddhist and is now buried in Kashmir.
Oh. And think evolution is where it’s at rather than any of this religious nonsense. If it helps people cope with that fact that they’re not immortal, then fine, but they’re just kidding themselves.
Dave H,
I’m sorry to let you know this, but the FBI is already after you. They left as soon as they read the threat. They’ll finish reading your comment after they bring you in.
Wow, cool. I’ll be a martyr to the Great Velcro� Cause! Do I get to wear an orange jumpsuit?
I’m always amazed at the amount of vocal anti-Christians there are in Mac forums. I’m a big time Mac user but find it funny that many other Mac users don’t find the irony in bashing someone else because he believes Jesus is “the way” to go! By the way, God can’t be explained away by logic. That statement doesn’t make sense. In fact this is logical: you would have to be God to know that there was no God. In other words, if you were God, you would have the ultimate ability to reveal yourelf or not to your creation. And if you chose not to reveal, then no one would find you. But look around- God’s work and love are revealed a thousand times over. You must not be looking!
The thing is that people, like me, who are atheists, think all you religious people, Christians or otherwise, are a bunch of deluded nutters.
So no amount of of your words will do a thing to pursuade us otherwise.
There may be an incident in our lives which induces this delusion, but I’m afraid I don’t believe in God, magic, heaven, hell or anything that can’t seen or touched or scientifically proven.
If I see or experience something that I don’t understand, I don’t automatically thing it’s the work of the lord, I just figure that I don’t understand it yet.
We are controlled by our DNA. We are vehicles for our DNA. We are devices that allow our DNA to propogate. Nothing more. This is why people are less horrified when a parent dies than when a child dies. The child represents the future of the DNA, that our bodies have done their job. The parent doens’t matter any more. It’s also why granparent go so nuts about their grandchildren.
What I can’t figure out is why Christians get just as upset when someone dies. They should be rejoicing, but deep down, they know they’re just soul-less wormfood.
Hywel, from my point of view it sounds like you’re preaching. Atheism is a religion too remember, complete with it’s evangelists.
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Hywel,
I can say that I used to say things like you just did (mostly to the tune of “people embrace religion because they are weak and need some kind of false hope”). It was only after I asked God to show me if he was really there that things in my life started to change – and through real experience of answered prayers and pieces of the puzzle falling into place, I started to believe. If you think people are a DNA motivated coincidence, then I challenge you to something:
Say something like this outloud and mean it as much as you can “God, I don’t believe you exist and this guy on the macforms is an idiot, but just in case I’m wrong, please come into my life and show me”. If you sincerely ask God to reveal himself to you he will. And it won’t be in ways you expect!
And if you have a really hard time saying something like that outloud sincerely, then you might stop and wonder why it is so hard to do it – if we are all just worm food.
What you ask is utterly impossible to do. “If you sincerely ask God to reveal himself to you he will”. For one, it is impossible for me to be even remotely sincere about saying that. And I already said I’m an Atheist. I didn’t say I was an Agnostic. I can’t say “just in case”. I can’t hedge my bets like that. It’s like Douglas Adams said to the American Atheist Society – It’s not that I don’t believe in God, it’s that I am convinced that there is no god. Adams had to call himself a ‘Radical Atheist’ just so that people understood that he meant it.
When you say, “It was only after I asked God to show me”, that quite obviously became what one of those “people embrace religion because they are weak and need some kind of false hope”. Well I don’t need hope. I have children and my parents have grandchildren. I hope to have grandchildren too. I want to die before my children, or at least for my children to have children before they die. This is also why parents are so judgmental of their children’s choice of partner. It is also I think a reason why otherwise liberal open parents have a tough time when their kids turn out to be gay. The disappointment isn’t that they’re gay, it’s that the likelyhood of procreation and the propogation of the genetic line is lessened (that’s thankfully changing it seems with IVF and turkey basters).
Hey Jesus! Can you save me from these idiotic theology wars on a FRICK’IN MAC FORUM?
Christians: fine. believe what you will. go dump it in a forum where people *want* to read it.
Everyone else: please ignore them and they’ll just SHUTUP.
Yeah,
It’s ok to talk about everything else in a mac forum but not God.
Why is it that the loudest people on mac forums assume that there are no Christian mac users? If one of your family members came up for discussion negatively in some forum wouldn’t you defend them?
This rumor makes good publicity regardless of its validity. As more large(r) companies start considering migration more developers have opportunities to write software necessary to support them. Even when it’s discouraging that many “traditional” businesses have gone Windows-only there’s a growing potential for that to be reversed in Apple’s favor (e.g. this rumor); making it reality is the ongoing challenge. The media has brought more attention to anti-Windows arguments, with Linux often highlighted as the major alternative. Soon Apple/Mac may get more of that type of “viable alternative” recognition.
PS: I prefer the Church of the Least Fixed Point… Alonzo Church. 😀
I don’t think “Not that it couldn’t be done, but it would require “Thinking Different” on a scale that hasn’t been seen since Copernicus tried to convince Christians that the Earth revolved around the Sun.” was particularly negative.
If it was the Falwell comment, I’ve just looked him up (never heard of him before). Looks like a nutter to me. Anyone who believes literally in the bible is positively unhinged. I can at least understand that some people need to believe in something, but taking that stuff literally is no more sane than believing literally in the legends of ancient Greece.
Alonzo Church … Haha! Nice! He’s a
Hywel, being an Atheist is based on faith. I see you and randall as two sides of the same coin. But when you say you don’t need hope and two sentences later you say ” I hope to have grandchildren too”, I get confused. Oh, and by the way, did DNA exist before they were discovered and “scientifically proven”? and has this:
The child represents the future of the DNA, that our bodies have done their job. The parent doens’t matter any more. It’s also why granparent go so nuts about their grandchildren.
been scientifically proven?
Anyone interested in a provocative “science of life” perspective might enjoy Johnjoe McFadden’s Quantum Evolution.
Hywel, it is impossible for anyone to take the Bible literally and appear at ease with themselves. It contradicts itself so often that it can pretty much be used to prove your point on any argument. You also have the problem in that the emphasis of some passages has changed through subsequent translations and editions to please the particular branch of Christianity doing that version. Some would say that it is the work of God guiding the change, I say that it’s man attempting to mould God in his own image (which personally I don’t think She’s particularly happy about).
However, there is no way you can say that the Bible has no value as a guide to life. If you read The Gospels, you will find a lot in them that will make you think. Douglas Adams described Jesus as someone who was nailed to a tree for asking why don’t we start being nice to each other for a change? It does just about sum up the core message of Christianity. Love, Respect and Understanding, all extremely worthy attributes. You don’t have to believe in God to appreciate that.
I have to say that Hywel looks more like a “deluded nutter”, in denial of his own faith. (Plus he’s arrogant and preachy.)
How about all you folks, christians, atheists, buddhists, etc. take “that discussion” to another forum…
If anyone from FedEx reads this thread you’re gonna scare ’em back into using PCs!
It has always amazed me how the most liberal minded and tolerant of society aren’t every time the topic of G-d is presented. Well, if you feel better by remaining ignorant don’t complain to me about it. I don’t wanna hear it.
I want to apologise for being arrogant and preachey. Those observations are fair. I just get sick to death of the God squad, so I thought I’d give a strong athiest point of view instead of the usual tolerant one.
I do firmly believe that any faith based belief system is based of self delusion and a need for grand explanation that simply isn’t needed. I really do see no difference in a belief in a Christian God and a belief in Zeus or Odin. It’s the same ballpark. It fulfils the same need.
I have less of a problem with what I’d call hippy Christians, who have taken the good bits, which were described earlier by Dave as Love, Respect and Understanding and, say the Christian Right, which stands for none of those things. But I really don’t want to be converted or saved thank you very much.
As for the bible not having any value as a guide, I don’t think I said that, and if I did, I was wrong or phrased what I said badly. The bible has many stories that have value, just like the legends of ancient Greece (that’s pre-Disney Greece) or Aesop’s fables have value and have elements that we can learn from.
And sorry for losing it a little there.
This FedEx thing would be huge ! Of biblic…. ooops!
Hywel,
This will be my last response, so if you want to feel free to have the last word.
Don’t you use faith in all parts of your daily life? I’m sure when you get in the car you have faith that the steering will work reasonably well, and that if you eat food in a restaurant that the preparer didn’t poison it. Even though you have no absolute assurance that either of these things won’t happen, you still trust through experience and what others have told you enough to both drive and eat out some. Faith always has an object and in the case of Christians our faith is placed in Jesus. I haven’t seen him in person yet, but I have seen things that he has done in my life and others, and I have faith that he is who he says he is in the bible.
Jesus didn’t leave any way out for people to just take bits and pieces from the bible, and makes it clear that he is the only way to have a relationship with God. Like I’ve heard from others, Jesus left no middle ground: either he was a complete lunatic, or he was exactly who he said, God as a man. The bible says that God is long suffering and patient, not wanting any person to perish and that he stands at the door waiting for you to knock. I can only restate my hope for you to take a chance and ask God to reveal the truth to you. If I am wrong, and deluded, it won’t hurt at all will it? But if I’m right……….then you can have a whole life waiting for you that is better than any of us can imagine.
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Take care
Randall
theloniusMac rather pejoratively stated “…hasn’t been seen since Copernicus tried to convince Christians that the Earth revolved around the Sun.”
This is obiviously meant to troll for comments from Christians (and it is working;-). Had Thelonius used some other word than “Christians” (like say, “atheists”) it would be atheists who would be typing furiously right now.
The irony is that Copernicus was a.) himself a Catholic Canon, and therefore most likely a Christian, b.) was championed by a Lutheran Scholar named Rheticus, c.) was incorrect in his theory of heliocentricity, and d.) was not just trying to convince Catholic Church officials but anyone who would listen.
So to say that this Canon was trying to convince “Christians” about some valid view of the universe is wrong on many levels, not the least of which is that it implies that non-Christians had no problem with his theories and that it was only “Christians” who did. This is not the way things work in either the scientific community or the public at large. Do any of you assume that everything you currently believe about the way the universe works is actually TRUE? If you do you are no better than the pagans who thought Isaiah was a crackpot for writing that the Earth was a sphere.
The reality is that scholars had theorized that the Earth revolved around the Sun for some time but it was Copernicus who first theorized the retrograde motion of the planets. He was building on Ptolemyic constructs which led to his more correct theories which led to other, even more robust theories.
The supreme irony in this whole subject is that modern science, as we know it, was first developed by Christians. Nearly all of the “Fathers of Science” were Christians like Copernicus who were fascinated by God’s creation and set out to figure out how it worked. They believed that the creation was designed and thus, could be understood. Many of these fathers of science scoured the Bible to find clues to the mysteries of “Life, the Universe, and Everything” and found them.
Non-Christians are certainly free to believe in whatever alternative they so choose but in a forum that seeks to clear up misconceptions about ideal computing platforms it only seems right to make sure that new misconceptions are not propagated.
If we keep it civil and don’t care about getting too off-topic once in awhile, understanding results.
cheers,
-B
Don’t tell us you believe there is a god and expect us to believe your ignorant lies. And don’t expect us to not call bullsh*t on you when you do.
If you don’t want us telling you stupid, self-righteous, zealot churchies that you are WRONG, then don’t F’ing bring it up.
Why can’t YOU be open mined enough to realize that YOU don’t know the truth?
It is so obvious that your religions are MAN MADE FABLES designed to control the ignorant masses. it has happened in every culture throughout the history of man.
Now that this is a global society, we can look back at history and see how the populous has been DUPED by the churches. Yet you STILL cling to that garbage.
Fools.
Stop PREACHING and we will stop beating sense into you. WE DON’T WANT TO HEAR IT! Sell crazy someplace else.
You stupid, smug god zealots make me sick.
sigh. Randall, I don’t think you understand. I am an atheist. This means I’ve thought about this and I’m convinced that there is not God. I repeat that I can’t ask God to show himself because I firmly believe he ain’t there. If I did ask, I would no longer be an atheist. And I’m perfectly happy being an atheist thank you very much. I’ve been an atheist for maybe 15 years and agnostic before that. Despite going to church and sunday school as a child, I don’t remember a time when I ever believed any of the bible was literally true.
You can find out what your faith system is here at the belief-o-matic
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
I came out as a Secular Humanist.
As for faith. Faith in something that has been demonstrated and proven is completely different to having faith in something that I fundamentally don’t believe exists. I don’t have ultimate faith in chairs or chefs. I’m taking a chance. I could be poisoned or fall on my arse, I just don’t know. What I do know is that if I get sick after going to a restaurant I won’t go back there. If I injure myself because a chair hasn’t been built correctly, I might sue.
In fact, I regularly go to a bar near work. It’s a dingy place badly in need of renovation. But the have really nice beer and the owner’s a really nice guy. And there’s a really nice Thai couple who rent the kitchen and do really nice food. They’ve never poisoned me, so I go back. The chairs though could really with being replaced. Some are literally falling apart. They wobble a little. I don’t have much faith in them, so before I sit on them, I test them. I put s little wight on the backrest and give them a little twist to make sure I’ve got a solid one. This is knowledge from experience, experimentation, observation. It’s just going for a beer and some food at lunchtime, but there’s still room for a little practical physics.
Aackk!! I’ve been condemned to hell by Velcro people. But wait, wasn’t Jobs himself told people that hell froze over. Hah! Once again, I escape the wrath of Velcro people. And now that hell froze over, does that mean there are snow bunnies there? Hmmm!
You know, this debate about trying to convince oneself about God’s existence is a bit like what people told me when I said I hated Blair Witch Project and it wasn’t scary: I had to try hard to imagine scary things that could happen to those people [to which I replied it wasn’t my job to convince myself that the movie was scary. I paid money to be entertained (scared) by the movie, why should I do the job myself?]
Bottom line is, religion can’t/shouldn’t be imposed on others. Either you believe or you don’t. Either you have faith in the existence of (a) Deity(s) or you don’t. You can try to discuss it with people who are interested to hear what you say, but the moment you try to force the discussion, you force many people away from what you are trying to accomplish.
seriously guy’s believe but you will…….. BUT…
this is a Mac forum…….
which im sure welcomes all religions………
but for christ sake…..
no preaching please…….
there is enough religious vomit elsewhere……
thank you…….
Nobody said: “…but the moment you try to force the discussion, you force many people away from what you are trying to accomplish.”
These are wise words and so I hope those who agree with Nobody would never try to force their view of Mac vs. PC or PC vs. Mac on others who don’t agree with their position.
To my thinking, the same reason that Mac zealots (in the best sense of the word) evangelize for the Mac is the same reason that Christian zealots (same best sense) evangelize for Jesus Christ. Mac proponents know that PC users would be much better off if they were to switch from the dark side.
I find that Windows users generally don’t want to hear anything a Mac user has to say to them. The Mac advocate wonders why the Windows user prefers to live their life of pain when they could simply choose to take a different path. This is essentially the same view held by most evangelical Christians. Evangelicals often wonder why anyone would turn down the gift of eternal life but then, those of you who are Mac-loving secular humanists (who would prefer to never hear a Christian share the Good News) probably wonder why any Windows user would turn away from the opportunity to own the best computer on the planet.
People have their own reasons for why they make such choices, and often this ends up meaning that even the very best of solutions for them, be it an OS or a spiritual awakening, are not welcome.
-B
It’s not Velcro, it’s Velcro�, pronounced vel-crot-um. If you want to know what He looks like, browse to here
Now I’m laughing to myself because I’ve unintentionally invented a deity that rhymes with scrotum. I am so childish at times
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No one complained when “Christians” were insulted and maligned by ignorant and prejudicial people, but when a believer shares his or her faith in G-d listen to the howls and wailings. Talk about your hypocrites. Be assured that everyone will one day bow before G-d and acknowledge all who He is.
Encyclop�dia Britannica 1:666, 1992, reflecting the usual definition in philosophy, begins:
�Atheism, the critique or denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings. As such, it is the opposite of theism, which affirms the reality of the divine and seeks to demonstrate its existence. Atheism is to be distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open the question of whether there is a god or not, professing to find the question unanswered or unanswerable; for the atheist, the nonexistence of God is a certainty.�
The entry on �atheism� in the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, probably the preeminent reference tool for philosophy, begins:
�Atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. It proposes positive belief rather than mere suspension of disbelief.�
From a logical point of view, how could God�s non-existence be proven? The atheist would need to have complete knowledge of all time and space, and all dimensions, to know for sure that God does not exist. However, an atheist with such properties would be virtually �divine� himself.
[url=http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/negative9-5-2000.asp]http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/negative9-5-2000.asp[/url]
“From a logical point of view, how could God�s non-existence be proven? The atheist would need to have complete knowledge of all time and space, and all dimensions, to know for sure that God does not exist. However, an atheist with such properties would be virtually �divine� himself.”
Did I get it wrong? Should It be atheists that disappear in a puff of logic?
American Atheist: Mr. Adams, you have been described as a �radical Atheist.� Is this accurate?
Douglas Adams: Yes. I think I use the term radical rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as �Atheist,� some people will say, �Don�t you mean �Agnostic�?� I have to reply that I really do mean Atheist. I really do not believe that there is a god – in fact I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one. It�s easier to say that I am a radical Atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it�s an opinion I hold seriously. It�s funny how many people are genuinely surprised to hear a view expressed so strongly. In England we seem to have drifted from vague wishy-washy Anglicanism to vague wishy-washy Agnosticism – both of which I think betoken a desire not to have to think about things too much.
People will then often say �But surely it�s better to remain an Agnostic just in case?� This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. (If it turns out that I�ve been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would chose not to worship him anyway.)
cont…
Other people will ask how I can possibly claim to know? Isn�t belief-that-there-is-not-a-god as irrational, arrogant, etc., as belief-that-there-is-a-god? To which I say no for several reasons. First of all I do not believe-that-there-is-not-a-god. I don�t see what belief has got to do with it. I believe or don�t believe my four-year old daughter when she tells me that she didn�t make that mess on the floor. I believe in justice and fair play (though I don�t know exactly how we achieve them, other than by continually trying against all possible odds of success). I also believe that England should enter the European Monetary Union. I am not remotely enough of an economist to argue the issue vigorously with someone who is, but what little I do know, reinforced with a hefty dollop of gut feeling, strongly suggests to me that it�s the right course. I could very easily turn out to be wrong, and I know that. These seem to me to be legitimate uses for the word believe. As a carapace for the protection of irrational notions from legitimate questions, however, I think that the word has a lot of mischief to answer for. So, I do not believe-that-there-is-no-god. I am, however, convinced that there is no god, which is a totally different stance and takes me on to my second reason.
I don�t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me �Well, you haven�t been there, have you? You haven�t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid� – then I can�t even be bothered to argue. There is such a thing as the burden of proof, and in the case of god, as in the case of the composition of the moon, this has shifted radically. God used to be the best explanation we�d got, and we�ve now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining. So I don�t think that being convinced that there is no god is as irrational or arrogant a point of view as belief that there is. I don�t think the matter calls for even-handedness at all.
It was neither my desire nor intention to convince anyone that G-d exists. I do not think that I could do a better job of revelation than the Almighty Himself. Knowing G-d, people, is an individual journey. I simply want to share my experience. Whatever decision you make is your choice, your decision, your destiny.
D.A.: God used to be the best explanation we�d got, and we�ve now got vastly better ones.
Personally, I’m “convinced” that this a widely held secular humanistic myth. But it makes sense that many would hold this belief.
1 Corinthians 1:18,19 says: “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.'”
This is exactly how so many people who are widely regarded as being wise can claim, and be believed by many other intelligent people, that faith in God is so much foolishness.
But faith is something that does not require logic. And that is a believer’s supposed weakness. So, go ahead and call me weak. Call my faith a crutch. Tell me my belief is not logically sound. Okay, you’re right. But be sure that you understand that I’m convinced (there’s that word again) that because I’m not perfect, I NEED a crutch. And I praise God for giving that crutch to me so that I will not be counted among the lost in eternal separation from Him.
You see, Christians appear to have the logically inferior position – according to convinced atheists (is that term redundant?). And Christians consider the undeniable reality of God through His intervention in their lives to be unassailable by even logic – if the two should come into conflict. Continued…
…It is one thing to be convinced. It is quite another to throw out the possibility that what we’re convinced of could ever be demonstrated to be incorrect (sometimes called closed-mindedness, intolerance, or bullheadedness). I’m sure that at some point in our lives we were all convinced of something that turned out not to be true. Maybe some were convinced that Santa Claus or the tooth fairy really existed; maybe others were convinced that saccharin ingested in normal amounts caused cancer in humans; both were demonstrated to be untrue. I don’t find many intelligent, mature adults that when shown the evidence, still cling to those beliefs. And that’s fine. They were all open to the notion that what they were convinced of once has been overridden by fact and evidence.
To which some of you are jumping up and down wildly, screaming and yelling: “but that is exactly what Christians do – they continually affirm what has been demonstrated to be false!” But not so fast – remember what I wrote above about evidence of God’s intervention in one’s life being impervious to logic. So a Christian’s response should be expected – and so should and atheist’s. For a Christian’s god is GOD, and an atheist’s god is LOGIC. A Christian will not affirm the power of LOGIC (a creation of God) over it’s Creator. But an atheist easily could.
One last note: For this post, I have assumed the possibility of a logical argument that can directly refute a Christian’s fundamental beliefs. But I have not been convinced by ANY logical argument that can claim logical superiority over my belief; nor will I ever. Any such argument would have presuppose that logic could contradict Truth – something that I do not hold and cannot accept.
1 Cor 3:18,19: “Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.” (this makes sense to a Christian, but seems to contradict itself if the reader is “convinced” that he does not need God’s salvation)
Why is that the most religous people are the most violent? Moderation bible thumpers. Too much of good thing makes you a nut case.
Yah right. Try to back up that statement without using B Movies for reference.
While I enjoy a good debate, even an off topic one, I like it best in these forums if it has, at least some connection to the Mac. So, for “defender of my faith”, while your points are well taken, I have a problem with them:
1. They are WAY off topic in that they don’t really address the original comment about copernicus or FedEx, and
2. I don’t know that one can simply say that a Christian faith is illogical. The faith must AT LEAST have an internal logic. There are divisions in Christian denominations for this reason. One group says the Bible teaches baptism and another says it doesn’t. One has to be incorrect. Furthermore, Faith comes through knowledge. I don’t have any faith in things about which I know nothing. In this sense, “Faith”=”Trust”. A secular humanist could argue that an answer to a prayer is just blind luck and not really the work of a Deity. So there must be more to prove that God exists and cares for His creation. If no such proof is available then the secular humanist/atheist could have a point. But Christians can point to several very compelling proofs that the atheist simply cannot logically assail. Just like the Windows user eventually has to tell the Mac evangelist that the facts be damned, so must the atheist.
-B
P.S. Certain religions certainly do preach violence (hence the term “Jihad”) while others preach peace (hence the phrase “turn the other cheek”). As for the phrase “moderation bible thumpers”, I think you mean “moderation Quran thumpers”.
Beeblebrox, don’t jump on the Islam-bashing bandwagon. There are extremists for every movement on the planet. Just as something as unreligious as vegetarianism has it’s radical followers who only eat fruit and nuts, Steve Jobs amongst them (Hooray, a Mac connection!!), there are thousands of peaceful muslims for every one that considers suicide bombings to be legitimate. The Koran, BTW, states that the biggest sin you can commit against Allah is to take your own life, which sort of makes you wonder just how twisted are the minds of the terrorists if they can reconcile themselves in their own heads.
As I’ve sort of said above, the problem with organised religions is that sooner or later they get to the size when people play politics and control games over the faithful. That more than anything explains why there are so many denominations in Christianity. But just because The Vatican is telling Africans that using condoms won’t help prevent them catching HIV, it doesn’t mean that you can stand up and say “all Catholics are bad”. The same goes for Islam.
If anything breeds religious extremism, it is poverty. And that sadly is available the world over.
Dave, your points are well taken but not entirely aligned with the facts.
I agree there are some Muslims who honestly argue that Islam is a religion of peace such as Yusuf Islam (my Apple reference in this post) but these voices are VERY few and far between. I don’t even recall the last time a Muslim cleric in this country publicly decried the fundamentalist Muslim terrorism going on right now in Iraq against the people of that country. The reason for this is that these religious leaders know what the Quran teaches:
“The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” -Surah 5:33
There are many such passages in the Quran which these clerics can point to for support of their Jihad. On the other hand you will find NO such passages in the New Testament, and in fact, rather quite the opposite.
As for the poverty angle, Novelist Salman Rushdie agrees with you when he wrote about people like Bin Laden: “Poverty is their great helper, and the fruit of their efforts is paranoia. This paranoid Islam, which blames outsiders, “infidels,” for all the ills of Muslim societies, and whose proposed remedy is the closing of those societies to the rival project of modernity, is presently the fastest growing version of Islam in the world.”
Of course, one of the richest families in the world is the Bin Ladens so it is hard to say that poverty is the root of Jihad. UBL is a true believer and he believes the West needs to be crushed. He and others like him are fundamentalist believers who see Christianity and Judaism as the enemy. There will be no changing of that viewpoint even if every Muslim had a nice home in the suburbs with an Airport wireless network and one 12″ G4 Powerbook for each member of the family.
-B
P.S. There were good Germans too but that did not prevent us from waging a war against Hitler. We need to be careful to look at the movement as a whole rather than individual people who may not agree with the movement. In this case, fundamentalist Islam is on the rise and our options are limited in preventing its spread.
good point beeblebrox. You have a really good way of explaining your point(s).
Hmmm. That’s the ticket beeblebrox. A crusade is just what we need.
Steven Weinberg: “With or without religion, good people behave well and bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion”
Some guy I never heard of said: “With or without religion, good people behave well and bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion”
In the sense that Islam is a religion I would have to agree. However, Christianity is not a religion, it is a “Faith”. This is not to say that there is not a Christian teaching about religion however.
If I recall my New Testament correctly, I think it was James who wrote:
“Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress…”
In other words a true religion is one that promotes good works for those who cannot help themselves. This is a Christian teaching but not central to the Faith. Christianity is first and foremost about following Jesus Christ and adhering to his teachings, one of which is to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. I am wondering if Secular Humanism has such a tenet.
-B
P.S. Methinks someone is not familiar with the history of the Crusades lest he would not be using the mention of it as an attempted insult. The crusades were a response to 400 years of Islamic slaughter of Christians in the Middle East and Southern Europe.
sigh. So you dismiss it, but then try to make sure Christianity wheedles out of it anyway.
Do you have to have heard of someone for them to have a valid opinion or point ? I don’t know who this James guy you’re talking about is.
I’m sick of the random quotes from the bible. It has some good stories, but you can’t take it literally because it’s full of contradictions.
Secular Humanism doesn’t simply dismiss anything Jesus may have said as a bad idea simply because of what he represents. Some of the Ten Commandments are simply good rules for social order, and we need social order as a species because of our genetic make-up. Without it, we would not reach adulthood.
The do unto others stuff is top drawer stuff. Can’t argue with it.
Largely the problem with Christianity is that the majority of people who profess to being Christians don’t know the first thing about how to be a Christian. I’d say to the extent that it’s probable that Secular Humanists are actually better Christians than the majority of so called Christians. That is if you regard the attitude and approach to life and others (your orphans and widows stuff) as the main thing. You’d probably have to exclude the whole of the ‘Christian right’ for starters, because the eye of that needle’s gonna be WAY too small, especially after they’ve taken as much as they possible can from non-Christian countries who may be a bit pissed at the way they’ve been treated.
So what about the ‘Christians’ who murder abortion doctors and their chauffeurs ? Aren’t they just as bad as Islamic fundamentalists ?
Hywel said:
So what about the ‘Christians’ who murder abortion doctors and their chauffeurs ? Aren’t they just as bad as Islamic fundamentalists ?
Yep.
-B
Thanks for putting the quotes around “Christians”.
beeblebrox, nicely put post. I hope that your knowledge of the Koran is from actually reading it, which I believe more people in the West should do, especially our so-called leaders.
The Surat you quote from is linked into the story of Cain and Abel from the Old Testament, and is meant to convey how the Children of Abraham (or Keepers of The Book) should not wage war on each other. Both this Surat and others, however, are very clear about how muslims should respond when their faith is threatened. Allah frowns on violence, except when used in defence, at which point it is no holds barred. I know that my post is now going to stray from religion to politics, and possible upset a few people, but when you think about it, throughout history plenty of others have strayed in the same direction. At least this time, nobody gets killed.
The occupation of Iraq is considered by many in the West to be an outright attack on Islam, so considering the POV the Arab media are going to put across on the subject, the bombings there are an inevitable consequence of the invasion. I’m certain the people at The Pentagon knew this, so the current 500+ US deaths since the end of hostilities must have been factored in as a necessary loss. They may even be considering themselves to have got off easy. Awful, I know, but when you strike a hornet’s nest, you are going to get stung, and unlike politicians, military people aren’t stupid and know this.
As to the Bin Ladens, they have managed to amass their fortunes through the brokering of arms deals to the various governments and (Western-sponsored) autocracies in the region. Arms dealers will sell to anyone, even opposing sides in a conflict, so you do have to wonder exactly what knowledge Osama has been privy to before rejecting his old life and heading for the mountains, and whether this knowledge was finally too much at odds with what he was being taught at the Mosque.
cont’d
On a side note here, I’m glad you bring up Hitler and the Nazis. There is a prominent American arms dealing family with links to both the Nazi party, and the Bin Ladens, a family that have not only previously had their assets frozen by the US Government for selling arms both to the US and Nazi Germany during WW2, but have also been heavily involved in at least one illegal arms deal during the Iran-Iraq war, lining their pockets by prolonging a war that killed millions. Bad guys mean profits in their industry, so creating them is just an investment in the future. Islam is the perfect bad guy for them, because in Islam you are sinning by not striking back when attacked. For every muslim terrorist that gets killed, another ten angry young men sign up, and the US Army needs more and more guns and bullets.
Lastly, Salman Rushdie hits the nail on the head. The only way that the muslim world can fully move away from mass radical Islam is through wealth and education. Unfortunately too many religious leaders have too much to lose if this happens. Religion gets blamed for a lot of the problems in the world, but it really all comes down to politics and power.
Right. So the problem is religious fundamentalism, not Islamic fundamentalism. Islamic leaders in the UK have certainly been outspoken against such behaviour and denounce it at un-Islamic, just as many Christians will denounce the killing of an abortionist as un-Christian.
The conflict in Iraq of course has absolutely nothing to do with Bin Laden, Al-Qaeda or Islam (fundamental or otherwise). The Bin Ladens are Saudi. They have distanced themselves from Osama and are chums with Bush. After all, while no flighs were allowed in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, he allowed something like 18 Bin Ladens to fly out of the US without even questioning them.
The conflict in Iraq is first and foremost about oil. Then it’s about regime change. It was never about WMD, because there never were any. It was never about terrorists. If it was revenge for 9/11, it was sadly misplaced because there are no proven links or even any tenuous circumstantial links between Saddam and Osama.
“Religion gets blamed for a lot of the problems in the world, but it really all comes down to politics and power”
Religion IS politics and power.
Beeblebrox’s (valid) get-out clause that Christianity is a faith, not a religion is particularly relevant here. I would guess that it’s true of most faith systems too, in that many are able to pick and choose which bits they think are relevant or true. It’ll be a personal choice. But nobody can know if they are right or wrong, so many will listen to turn to their religious leader for guidance. And that’s where the church has the opportunity to get its political claws into you.
Thanks Dave and Hywel for your comments. I do not agree with any of them but that’s the beauty of America. I would contest them in detail but this is a Mac Forum and we are seriously off topic.
However, the one thing I must outright challenge is the notion that the problem is a general religious fundamentalism. Jesus was the first Christian fundamentalist. If more people followed exactly what he said were the fundamentals we would have a world of peace. Ghandi was a Hindu fundamentalist and most people consider his teachings to be worthy of consideration. Both of these men were trying to show how to achieve peace as a basic tenet of their respective Faiths.
The current problem IS Islamic fundamentalism. The 911 attack was an offensive one done by well funded Jihadists and had nothing to do with oil nor was our response (as an aside, the free flow of oil out of Iraq will be tremendously damaging to Bush’s Texas oil baron friends so the nonsense about Bush going into Iraq for oil is just sophistry).
But here’s the rhetorical question; if the Qur’an actually makes no mention of Jihad then the logical conclusion would be that Muslim terrorists are NOT fundamentalists after all. By definition, fundamentalism is the strict following of the theology of the Faith in question. If Jihad is not a fundamental of Islam then it is simply inaccurate to call those who are being called Islamic Fundamentalists, “fundamentalists”. Either they are or they are not. What makes them one or the other is how closely they are following the original teachings of Islam.
Cheers,
-B
Bush/America is looking long term on oil. America want to use up everyone else’s oil first. It’ll make a killing on its own produce then. Nothing particularly wrong with that, unless you count ruthless greed as wrong. America wants to profit from the war. The problem is that ordinary Americans will pay for it up-front in taxes and multinationals will reap the benefits.
A large number of Americans believe that there is a link between Saddam and Osama/Al-Qaeda, despite never being offered any evidence of a link. This is the result of twisted reporting on Fox and misleading comments from Bush.
I’m not trying to defend Saddam or Osama or Al-Qaeda. I’m just saying there was no particular terrorist threat from Iraq. This isn’t like Osama and the Taleban, where there was very much evidence of a link. The illegal treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo and the conflict in Iraq have made the world less stable than it was two years ago. The conflict in Iraq was started on a false pretext against the wishes of the UN and its weapons inspectors. It was badly (though swiftly) executed and there was no coherent exit strategy (and there still isn’t).
beeblebrox
Quite right. A muslim friend of mine frequently objects to the use of the “fundamentalist” tag to describe terrorists, because going on the attack is against the fundamentals of Islam. She refers to herself as a fundamentalist muslim, because she follows the words and rituals of the Koran, and worships Allah. She also agrees with you that the only justification for Jihad is when the Islamic faith, and a muslims right to practice it, is under attack.
One question I would like you to try and answer is “Who funded the 911 attackers?”. I for one am convinced that my earlier comments about arms dealers are close to the truth here. Too many links to the same faces.
I put ‘christians’ in quotes very deliberately. What’s done in the name of Christianity, just as what’s done in the name of Islam isn’t necessarily Christian or Islamic. But the organisations – churches and government and sects definitely believe themselves not only to be Christian or Islamic, but believe that they are good and just. As all are equally convinced of their righteousness, it would be impossible to pick anyway. So even if I had a single spiritual bone in my body, there would be no point wasting it on a religion, because the chances are I’d get the wrong one. And a terrible waste of time that would be when I’m expecting to see the pearly gates and suddenly find myself on the banks of the Styx with no coins to hand.
Hywel, okay, now you’ve got me going (although not regarding religion as that seems to be a dead-end topic).
Bush MUST be thinking “long term” since known oil reserves stand right now at over 100 years. “Reserves” represent places where oil has been found and is ready to be extracted. This does not include the 500+ years of oil resources estimated to be in world oil shales nor does it account for conventional oil resources in, as yet unexplored regions of the planet such as most of Russia, ANWR, Antarctica, and the 99.9% of the ocean floor as yet untouched.
If Bush thinks that he can wait until the rest of the planet runs out of oil he will be waiting until at least March of 2604.
By then, my guess is that the planet will be running on some form of solar or nuclear power and Liberals will be whining about how George W Bush XIV is in the backpocket of the Solar Industry.
It’s a little academic but still a worthwhile read to go to the ncpa.org website are read the white paper called Are we running out of oil?
Cheers,
B
P.S. I wonder how much oil is used in the production, packaging, and shipping of a single iPod? Might Bush be making iPod production possible?
THAT BAST*RD!
Or maybe it isn’t oil itself that Hywel is making a point about, but rather the need to control the supply as a means of leverage over other groups of nations.
By controlling Iraq, Bush has leverage over the EU, which unlike the US, depends on Middle Eastern oil. If he cuts supply, oil gets more expensive for Europe. On the other hand, he can control the OPEC nations by threatening to increase supply and drive the price down. Personally, however, I don’t think it is about oil, it’s about ensuring a hegemony by surrounding China before it gets too rich. And of course using up America’s stockpile of weapons so The Pentagon has to buy more from companies such as those within The Carlyle Group’s portfolio.
Too bad the US proactively defends itself. Sigh….if only Carter would run again….
I just can’t wait until Hillary makes a run for office so that this country will really prosper and learn how to defend itself without stepping on anyones toes…
Dave H wrote:
Quite right. A muslim friend of mine frequently objects to the use of the “fundamentalist” tag to describe terrorists, because going on the attack is against the fundamentals of Islam. She refers to herself as a fundamentalist muslim, because she follows the words and rituals of the Koran, and worships Allah. She also agrees with you that the only justification for Jihad is when the Islamic faith, and a muslims right to practice it, is under attack.
Hmm. Jesus does not agree that there is a justification for war…for we see that Jesus, while on the cross and being insulted by many people there did not call to his Father for war against these people but instead said, “Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.” [Luke 23:34] And he calls all who follow him to do likewise.
God does not call people to defend Jesus with the sword. It is written, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay.” [Deut 32:35] He is the one who will judge the living and the dead. That’s not our job.
Interestingly, much of this discussion has centered around the followers rather than the leader which can lead us in all sorts of directions. e.g., if all Windows users generalised the Mac as being ‘only good for people in the Arts or graphics‘ or if all Mac people were ‘pleasant individuals‘…what meaningful truths can we draw from this about Apple or Mac computers? Each of those statements were generalisations of generalisations – and can sometimes be based on a grain of truth (or individual experiences), othertimes not.
So if half the people who claim to follow Jesus show no real signs of understanding him by their lives – what meaningful truth can be taken from that about Jesus? Surely, it can be plain to see that we’ve started with the wrong questions. Jesus said, while on trial before Pontius Pilate, “Everyone on the side of truth listen to me.” [John 18:37]
Hywel wrote:
I put ‘christians’ in quotes very deliberately. What’s done in the name of Christianity, just as what’s done in the name of Islam isn’t necessarily Christian or Islamic…
Right…
Hywel continued:
… But the organisations – churches and government and sects definitely believe themselves not only to be Christian or Islamic, but believe that they are good and just.
You are of course making a large sweeping statement (which is very problematic) but, nevertheless, we agree that any conclusions drawn from individualistic experiences are misrepresentative. e.g., In Australia recently there’s been in the news a lot talked about regarding a certain football club whose players are being investigated for some rape charges. The question is being asked, ‘Is this indicative of the game in general?’ Well, we might say that there could be a culture being fostered in some clubs where ‘boys will be boys’ is seen as acceptable but what conclusions will this bring about the game of football?
Certainly many people do like to think of themselves as ‘better than others’ and so your observations here are valid concerning people. Anyone claiming to be better than others, however, or indeed a person who claims the right to pass judgement on others _has not_ understood Jesus. For Jesus said, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be used to you.” [Matthew 7:1ff]
Jesus does not teach nor practice these things that you object to. The Bible instead states that, “There is no one righteous, not even one.” [Romans 3:10] Or as Jesus puts it, “No one is good – except God alone.” [Luke 18:19]
Jesus said,
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharasee and the other a tax collector. The Pharasee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men — robbers, evildoers, adulterers — or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
I agree that sweeping generalisations are problematic. So here’s a specific: George W Bush is not a Christian. He just thinks he is.
Whether you agree with his actions or not, he’s plainly not a Christian. I’m an atheist and I can see that.
Another thing that puzzles me is that for all Jesus is said to have said about they veils of money, America dares to put ‘In God We Trust’ on its bank notes. I mean, I just think the hypocrisy is funny, but I’m surprised more Christians don’t campaign to have it removed.
Hywel,
In reading your posts I think I can confidently state that I don’t think you have ANY IDEA of whether W is a Christian. By your own words you have demonstrated a complete lack of familiarity with what it means to be a Christian so I fail to see what value there is in you making such a proclamation.
Now, you can prove me wrong by telling us in 25 words or less what it takes to be a Christian. If you can do that I will provide a mea culpa on my previous statement about your apparent ignorance of the subjec.
And what does “they veils of money” mean?
-B
t
Hey Hywel,
How’s things?
You wrote:
Whether you agree with his actions or not, he’s plainly not a Christian. I’m an atheist and I can see that.
Are you saying, then, that you identify with the Pharasee above?
I’m not an American and so have no alliegience to Mr Bush. I don’t agree with his policies and my own concerns pre-war have proven post-war to be of merit. Whether Mr Bush is a Christian or not, however, I cannot say. That is not mine to judge. What Jesus makes clear, however, is:
“Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
<…>
“Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”] [Matt 10:32ff]
So, if your assumption is that he’s not because he’s done bad things – then by that assumption _no one_ can be a christian for as mentioned before, “There is no one righteous, not even one.” The message of Jesus is not that people are held as followers of him because of their goodness – far from it – but because of his mercy. Consider the following from Matthew 9:9ff…
As Jesus went on from there (his own town), he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and “sinners” came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?”
On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ (Hosea 6:6) For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Hywel also wrote:
Another thing that puzzles me is that for all Jesus is said to have said about they veils of money, America dares to put ‘In God We Trust’ on its bank notes. I mean, I just think the hypocrisy is funny, but I’m surprised more Christians don’t campaign to have it removed.
Later they [the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders] sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not? Should we pay or shouldn’t we?”
But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?”
“Caesar’s,” they replied.
Then Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”
And they were amazed at him.
Btw, I don’t disagree with the irony you mention… but we need to acknowledge that the God that America claims to follow is in fact no God in particular lest they be seen as politically incorrect. But certainly, hypocrisy is nevertheless easy to find – even in ourselves. I’m intrigued, however, as to whether or not you see that your opposition to various hypocrites is distracting from the real thing…Jesus.
oops, forgot to mention that the last quoation was from [Mark 12:13ff].
From: Mrs praise williams
Attn: Please,
I am the above named person from abidjan captal of ivory coast. I am married to Mr. Lobi Williams who worked with abidjan embassy Ivory Coast for nine years before he died in the year 2003. We were married for eleven years without a child. He died after a brief illness that lasted for only four days. Before his death we were both born again Christian.
Since his death I decided not to remarry or get a child outside my matrimonial home which the Bible is against. When my late husband was alive he deposited the sum of US$5,000 000 (FIVE MILLION, UNITED STATES DOLLARS) LEFT IN A LOCAL BANK HERE IN ABIDJAN. Recently, my Doctor told me that I would not last for the next Eight months due to cancer problem. The one that disturbs me most is my stroke sickness. Having known my condition I decided to donate this fund to a church that will utilize this money the way I am going to instruct herein. I want a church that will use this fund for orphanages, widows, propagating the word of God and to endeavour that the house of God is maintained. The Bible made us to understand that “Blessed is the hand that giveth”.
I took this decision because I don’t have any child that will inherit this money and my husband relatives are not Christians and I don’t want my husband’s efforts to be used by unbelievers. I don’t want a situation where this money will be used in an ungodly way. This is why I am taking this decision. I am not afraid of death hence I know where I am going. I know that I am going to be in the bosom of the Lord. Exodus 14 VS 14 says that “the lord will fight my case and I shall hold my peace”. I don’t need any telephone communication in this regard because of my health hence the presence of my husband’s relatives around me always. I don’t want them to know about this development. With God all things are possible.
As soon as I receive your reply I shall give you the details of the Bank where the money was deposited to enable you contact the bank for the transfer of the money into your acount in your country. I will also issue you an authority letter that will prove you the present beneficiary of this fund. I want you and the church to always pray for me because the lord is my shephard. My happiness is that I lived a life of a worthy Christian. Whoever that Wants to serve the Lord must serve him in spirit and Truth. Please always be prayerful all through your life,any delay in your reply will give me room in sourcing another ministry or organisation for this same purpose. Please assure me that you will act accordingly as I stated herein.
Hoping to receive your reply.
Remain blessed in the Lord.
Yours in Christ,