Back on June 9th of this year, SteveJack wrote, “The time has come for Apple to ship a two-button scroll mouse standard.” Now that Apple has announced their newest mouse, the Apple Wireless Mouse, complete with one button (again), we revisit SteveJack’s opinion article.
“I have been a Mac user since The Beginning. I have used a one-button mouse, as per Steve Jobs’ decree, until mid May 2003. That’s a long time. Then, while in Best Buy, of all places, I picked up a Kensington Pocket Mouse Pro because I wanted an inexpensive mouse that would travel well in my backpack. And, of course, I liked the retractable cord that winds into mouse’s body via its “garage door.” After three weeks with it, I can safely say, the time has come for Apple to ship a two-button mouse with a scroll wheel standard,” SteveJack writes.
Full article in the MacDailyNews Opinion section here.
HEY, THIS WHOLE THREAD WAS STOLEN FROM ANOTHER SITE!
http://old.macmilitia.com/features/micedebate.shtml
OR DID THEY STEAL IT?
IP Freely, I have to admit that was a pretty good comeback.
I gotta duck out of this crazy thread. C-ya all.
Sorry to back back again, but Seahawk – here’s a tidbit from page 70 of Apple’s Human Interface Guidelines:
“Mac OS X version 10.2 provides developers with a new �textured� window appearance (see Figure 5-4). This window style has been designed specifically for use by�and is therefore best suited to�applications that provide an interface for a digital peripheral, such as a camera, or an interface for managing data shared with digital peripherals, such as the Address Book application.
This appearance may also be appropriate for applications that strive to re-create a familiar physical device�the Calculator application, for example. Avoid using the textured window appearance in applications or utilities that are unrelated to digital peripherals or to the data associated with these devices. “
So, doesn’t Panther violate those guidelines?
Rules were meant to be broken, and in OS X’s case, this is a good thing.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/panther/
Bring on the brushed metal, the pinstripes looked weenie!
bob, good argument. But Apple could defend itself two ways.
1) The sentence you quote begins with “Mac OS X version 10.2” Panther is 10.3, so presumably new interface guidelines are free game. The interface has to be able to evolve…imagine if OS X had to stick to OS 9 guidelines.
2) Apple is trying to reposition with Finder with 10.3. The Finder is becoming more of an app than an environment. Having the ability to make hard drive icons disappear off the current Desktop makes me believe Apple wants us to stop using the Desktop as our main interface, and instead have it be a Finder window.
This has got to be one of the longest threads I’ve ever seen, you’d think they were talking about the MHz myth or something. Sheesh
I like the multi-button mice and buy one when needed. I have no problem with the Apple single button mice when I’m working with a friends Mac. I did hate that hockey puck mouse with a passion though. It kept getting turned around by it’s own cable when I would take my hand off of it.
“But why, why?” (Regarding Carlos’ msg)
I don’t understand the move away from the desktop metaphor. I do not find it easier to navigate through a finder window, in ANY of it’s view options. I think this is going to be resisted by the majority of users until something demonstrably better is created.
What a twerp Jeff Mincey is! He can shove his scroll wheel and extra buttons up his fat arse! He’s the sort of guy who would be far happier with PCs, I’ll bet at school had one of those fat pens that wrote in 12 different colors with a big pink eraser stuck on top. “a scroll wheel is not an annoyance for the users with very large monitors or dual monitors — such as graphics and video people who make up a significant niche market for Apple” DORK! Apple have the graphics market sown up and you know what?… we all have great big monitors and we all whizz along happily with our simple Apple mouse…why do you think we love Macs? I bet you even have one of those ‘work-station’ desks with a built-in coffee cup holder, a pot for paperclips and hook to hang your anorak on!
As I write this comment, it’s December of 2024, almost twenty-two years after this thread was born, and now that for many years Apple has offered a multi-function mouse, as I had called for from the beginning, what say the rest of you? Are you ready to go back to a single-function mouse with no scrolling capability? Or will you admit that you were simply short-sighted and had a lack of vision?
I’ve been following the discussion regarding compliance to Apple’s Interface Guidelines, and this is all well and good — except for one thing: is it not better to focus less on whether there is a compliance to these guidelines than on whether the guidelines are wise in this regard to begin with?
There are multiple keys on a keyboard — some of which will behave differently depending on the status of a computer. There are multiple controls on a dashboard of a car. There are even multiple controls on a washer and a dryer. And yet some people are trying to convince me that any consumer less than a “power user” or “geek” will freak out to see two buttons on a mouse. I simply cannot accept this. As I have said, even a complete novice will, upon trying one button and finding that it doesn’t do what he wants, will then try the other button — whereupon the light bulb will go over his head and the lesson is learned.
And even if I’m mistaken about this, it’s still no argument in favor of not offering a two-button mouse as an OPTION.
I just don’t understand most of you. Your reasoning is fear-based. It’s anal. All this talk of guidelines — does it occur to you that if strict adherence to guidelines were to carry the day, then the Mac would not offer the Unix shell command line interface at all? Fortunately, though, your mentality did not prevail at Apple and SOMEONE there was a voice of reason who said, “Many — probably most — users will work strictly within Aqua and will never use a Unix shell. But why don’t we provide it as an OPTION for those users who would like it. That way, those who would be confused by it would never have to use it anyway while others could still have its benefits.”
Imagine that. Options!
Jeff, if you’re going to insist on the Option route, please explain how Apple should realistically change how they package keyboards and mice in computers, and propogate those changes to resellers so that people can choose the Option whether they’re buying online from the Apple Store or buying from their local reseller.
Cause if you can’t do that practically in the business sense, then why should Apple try to either. Your answer has to be more than Apple can just “do it” because they’ll have to demonstrate ROI on making such a change to their fulfillment process.
And you didn’t address my question of what do you do as a reseller in terms of buying a certain number of each system, if they are still all packaged together. Resellers are probably still pissed about being required to carry equal stock of the 5 different iMac colors.
Look, the issue comes down to this:
For a PowerBook or iBook, we are STUCK with the silly one button built-in mouse button. I have an iMac and have bought a two-button MS mouse with scroll wheel, but the only thing holding me back from a new PowerBook is the lack of a right-mouse button.
Instead, I’ll get a PC notebook. It’s that simple.
I like my Kensington Trackball.
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I am amazed at the number of posts here just concerning an extra button. If Apple did not make a one button mouse, are they available for those who want them elsewhere? Or would the one button mouse soon become extinct. I don’t know. I haven’t actually looked at mice much lately. If they would disappear, then I strongly support Apple keeping it for those who want or need it. I would also like to see an Apple OPTION for a second button – or a trackball – I love my trackball – I think it is a good idea to keep the one button mouse alive.
Carlos, you seem to suggest that unless I detail precisely how Apple would manufacture, package, and distribute alternate mouse products, (as well as how it would present these options to its customers), my argument in favor of options fails. You lose me on this logic. I claim no expertise in the area of product packaging. But that does not invalidate the merits of my foregoing arguments.
You take the position that if Jeff Mincey can’t do it, being a person with no expertise in product packaging, then it’s unreasonable to expect that Apple Computer, a Fortune 500 company which employs thousands of people could do it. Hey, Carlos, would you care to run that one by me again?
Apple is already a company that offers a number of different models of computers — each of which carries its own packaging and distribution requirements. There are plenty of companies that provide “just-in-time” configurations. Alternatively, Apple could also measure the demand for two-button mice and it can look at industry figures for the sales of existing two-button mice in the retail channel, and based on those percentages it could prepackage some two-button mice to reflect those numbers. By posing this question to me you seem to imply that this is some insurmountable riddle for a corporation to solve. It’s not.
As for your question about resellers, I see no problem here inasmuch as they already stock peripherals (including two-button mice) from third party vendors. Thus the issue of the customer demand has already been dealt with. The only new wrinkle here is that Apple would be another vendor which offers a two-button mouse. What’s the big deal?
Unless you are prepared to tell me that no computer company, not Dell, not HP, not IBM, not Sun, etc., offers anything but ONE keyboard and mouse option for its customers, then I would say to you that this “issue” is not so daunting or perplexing as you seem to think it is.
steve jobs is a fuck tard and i blame him for this.
i want a nice apple branded mouse by my keyboard, is that too much?
fucking christ steve, think about people other then yourself you cube tossing tard.
You all may notice that Apple does not call these “Pro” accessories …
Maybe a 2-Button Bluetooth Mouse is yet to come?
An option to offer different buttoned mice costs more money and creates more confusion that no option.
Lots of Macs are bought from resellers who don’t pack the boxes as the Apple Store does. That means dual inventory must be created and kept for all stock. In essence, Apple would be doubling its computer line – six G5s instead of three. And that’s just to add a second button. I imagine that the scroll wheel fanatics would be next. Adding a scroll wheel to one and two button mice would now quadruple inventory.
Laptop designs would multiply. That’s a costly complexity for Apple. Making a split trackpad with the default that both halves do the same thing is not the same as today’s single trackpad.
There’s no way to design a two button mouse that will work as easily as the current one-button design. When the entire mouse, or any portion of it, acts like the button, one has an amazing mouse, so easy and comfortable to use. Apple making a two button mouse would be just as much a step back in usability as the hockey puck.
Every one of these additions cost Apple money (creating dual inventory boxes, designing and manufacturing new laptops and mice) and completely violate the Apple first principles of usability and simplicity. Macs are meant for the rest of us, at least that’s the corporate philosophy, and the current one-button mouse is simply the very best pointing and selecting device out there. This simplicity extends to all sorts of standardization, like built-in ethernet, firewire, USB ports, airport readiness, etc., that the custom PC world shies away from. Suppose you have no intention to go wireless. Well, you’re paying for a wireless capability in almost all of Apple’s new computers.
The option to offer the choice of mice, while it seems so consumer-oriented, is an expense Apple can do without, especially since the solution for customers who want a two-buttoned mouse is so simple. Apple is not really a consumer-oriented company in that it offers every option that all users want. That’s the Microsoft philosophy. They design their software based on the features that their users want. Sounds good, makes for a great features list, but such a philosophy, taken to extremes (an easy thing to do), results in ugly, hard-to-use, complex software. Being simple is _hard_.
So to offer an option for a two-button mouse causes confusion in the market. But to offer some computers with SuperDrives and others without does not. To offer some computers with Firewire 800 and some with Firewire 400 does not. To offer some computers “Airport Ready” and others with “Airport built in” does not. To offer some computers with the G5, others with the G4 and still others with the G3 does not.
And I’m sure that everyone in the market has a clear understanding of the differences of video cards sold in each model of the Mac and the possible resolutions supported by each monitor. I’m sure everyone in the market understands the difference between DDR and SDRAM, between PCI and PCI-X, between Aqua and X11, etc.
This is rubbish.
As for the contention that a two-button mouse would necessitate dual inventory, this too is rubbish. If you are a reseller and you already offer some peripherals on your shelves, such as trackballs, two-button mice, etc., then you already have a sense of the market demand for such products. Thus when you discover that Apple now supports a two-button mouse as an option, you simply order some Macs with the two-button mouse prepackaged and included. Now was that really so hard to imagine?
As for the supposed superiority of a one-button mouse, that’s fine. It’s superior for YOU. It’s not superior for everyone.
Does the introduction of a new product come with some costs? Sure. If a product must be free to develop before Apple will offer it, then it will go out of business and offer no products at all. I don’t suggest that Apple should not study the market and the economics before offering a two-button mouse. No one here is in a position to know whether the return on a two-button mouse would more than offset the development and marketing costs. I simply contend that this debate about which mouse is better is utterly beside the point. Provided the economics are there, (and clearly they are for a number of peripheral manufacturers), it need not be either-or.
Jeff, I posed the logistical question to you because you kept asking “what’s wrong with options”. Well, I pointed out packaging and fulfillment issues.
It seems you have put a finer point on your argument that no are no longer insisting on Apple letting you choose a 2-button mouse *instead* of a 1-button, rather you would be content to have an Apple-designed 2-button mouse, probably with scroll wheel, on reseller shelves.
Well, I agree that should be no sweat off Apple’s figurative back. I’m sure Apple has done at least one study over the years of how Mac users may react to them introducing a two-button mouse. I’m sure at least one Unix developer has asked “can we introduce a two button mouse” as they’ve been designing and building the Mac OS X interface from scratch. But as you can see, Apple still insists the average user only needs a mouse than clicks only one way, and they are designing the computer experience to go along with that.
If you do want to see what Apple is thinking about, look here.
http://www.macobserver.com/columns/devilsadvocate/2003/20030425.shtml
Diet Smith, if you want to see something demonstrably better than the current Finder winow, look at the new Finder in Panther. I agree that current Finder windows are cumbersome, which is why Apple is changing it.
Why not 3 buttons? Why not 10? One could always use extra buttons for _something_, but one button is all that a mouse needs. Hopefully Apple will continue to offer the simplicity and elegance of the one-button mouse as standard equipment. It is the Macintosh way. Windows wannabees can always buy a multiple-button mouse if they really want one.
“Third party mice are not as good looking as Apple mice. That is the problem.”
Right… so, to please everyone, Apple should offer two button mice as well as 3-button, 4- button, 5-button mice. Also, my third party speakers are not as good looking, so Apple should also sell 3-way speaker system as well as surround sound system. That reminds me of my power surge… ugly as hell. To make all things for my computer nice, Apple should design Apple-style power surge. While we are on the subject, my mouse pad needs to be Apple-designed too. Uhmm, one more thing,…
I have an idea… why don’t Apple put the optical sensor under the keyboard! That way, it can be used for typing and it has 119 buttons!! Is that enough for the people like bob?
Part 1:
I am a graphic designer, and would be qualified as a “power-user”, why? ‘cos I use my computer to do “things” as efficient as possible, since time is money! I have been a Mac user for more than 10 years now, and I can honestly say, the 1 buttoned mouse AND a 2 hand operation is the most efficient and time saving method over the two buttoned mouse [I know, because my employment change has forced me to use XP everyday at work for close to 9 months now] here are my experiences and thoughts:
Once you learn and used to the Mac short cuts [i.e. Apple/Command + x or the famous “Macintosh Claw”] is a sure way to do things right the FIRST time with out LOOKING [and consistent through out most apps]. In many instance [that I’m so used to the speed and productivity that Mac brings] I use the right-click on a PC when I want to create a new folder – which is the only “quick” way when there’s no actual “quick” keyboard shortcuts [yes, I know Alt key allows you to scroll through the menu, but is it quick? No, its slow because you have to look], that I accidentally created a short-cut instead, or when I want to rename a file it thinks I want to delete – they are one above the other!!! then I have to undo and try again… two button mouse slows me down EVERY time, because I have to be patient and LOOK at what the contextual menu SAYS. So who ever says its for the “power-users” obviously are not or not knowing what they are talking about!
Part 2
Now, as I have said my job as graphic designer has taught me not to use tools pallet or pull down menus in Illustrator or PShop most of the time, ‘cos 1] it’s much cleaner to work and see the whole page with out all the clatters; 2] it takes time to click / change a tool or pull down menus with the mouse every time; 3] 2 hand co-ordination comes naturally when you become a “power-user” just like a touch typist don’t LOOK at what he or she’s doing but concentrate on the work! a 2 button mouse breaks that concentration since you have to FIND the right command ALL the time. 4] a true “power user” do MORE with LESS clicks! 5] if you don’t believe me, look at most of the duo-platformed graphic apps on PC, 99% of their keyboard shortcuts are same as Macs’ User Guideline! except their Command key is where the Control key is on a Mac, and its painful to use long term wise because you’d have to use your pinkies instead of the thumb – making you twist / stretch your wrist TOO far [eg. to Open or Print on a PC could be painful with one hand -therefore resulting RSI… man! I’d have a Mac any day!
The scroll is USEFUL to read long vertical type of apps such as Email and Web Browsers [my question is can you read faster than you scroll? If not, then its not a necessity, think about it], but apart from that I don’t see them as necessity, remember the arrow key works just the same if you don’t want to drag with your mouse… and in the graphic apps I use and mentioned above doesn’t work with a scroll at ALL! EVEN on a PC! I’d still have to use the space bar to pane [which is more efficient anyway, remember scroll wheel is only a 2 way operation not 4 or 8 or more]. I only use contextual menus when the short cut is too far to reach without getting RSI [eg. show/hide-guide in Illustrator or selecting brush sizes in PShop… I mean its not like the Control key is too far for the “power-user’s” to reach from their usual stance: thumb on Command, pinkie on Control, ready to rock!
Part 3
In conclusion, nothing is faster than the quick Mac-Claw action and a single buttoned mouse for the TRUE power user, if you have to rely on contextual menus to do things then you are either not a “power-user” because you don’t really need the speed or productivity or you’re too lazy to actually pull-down menus or know the shortcuts, or you have been a PC user for too long that you just don’t get it. I’m sure a lot of the Mac “power-users” would agree with me, but usually they are so busy powering away doing what they do best… dancing away on their keyboard than whining about the 1 button mouse which comes standard [for good reasons!].