“Apple VP of Inclusion and Diversity Denise Young Smith on Friday issued an internal memo to clarify and apologize for comments made during a business summit last week, reiterating that Apple is committed to creating an inclusive and diverse workplace,” AppleInsider reports. “”
“At the One Young World Summit in Bogota, Colombia, last week, Smith joined Black Lives Matter activist DeRay Mckesson and KPMG International’s Global Head of Corporate Citizenship Lord Michael Hastings on stage in a panel discussion covering racial injustice,” AppleInsider reports. 
“As noted by TechCrunch, which procured a copy of Smith’s letter, the statement appeared to suggest diversity of thought is a suitable stand in for proactive hiring practices adopted by a variety of tech firms, including Apple, to foster racial and gender diversity,” AppleInsider reports. “‘I regret the choice of words I used to make this point. I understand why some people took offense,’ she said in a letter to employees. ‘My comments were not representative of how I think about diversity or how Apple sees it. For that, I’m sorry.'”
Read more in the full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: The irony is draped all over this one.
Diversity is certainly good, but getting the absolute best should remain the goal. Forced diversity carries its own set of problems. Would the group be comprised of the best-qualifed people possible or would it be designed to hit pre-defined quotas? Would some employees, consciously or unconsciously, consider certain employees, or even themselves, to be tokens meant to fill a quota? That would be a suboptimal result for all involved.
The best and desired outcome is for this to work in Apple’s favor. Truly looking at qualified people from a larger pool would result in delivering different viewpoints and new ways of looking at things and tackling problems than a more homogenized workforce would be capable of delivering.
Regardless and of course, someday it sure would be nice for everyone to just be able to evaluate a person’s potential, not measuring and tabulating superficial, meaningless things like skin color and gender. — MacDailyNews, August 3, 2016
—
Smith’s full letter, verbatim:
Colleagues,
I have always been proud to work for Apple in large part because of our steadfast commitment to creating an inclusive culture. We are also committed to having the most diverse workforce and our work in this area has never been more important. In fact, I have dedicated my twenty years at Apple to fostering and promoting opportunity and access for women, people of color and the underserved and unheard.
Last week, while attending a summit in Bogota, I made some comments as part of a conversation on the many factors that contribute to diversity and inclusion.
I regret the choice of words I used to make this point. I understand why some people took offense. My comments were not representative of how I think about diversity or how Apple sees it. For that, I’m sorry.
More importantly, I want to assure you Apple’s view and our dedication to diversity has not changed.
Understanding that diversity includes women, people of color, LGBTQ people, and all underrepresented minorities is at the heart of our work to create an environment that is inclusive of everyone.
Our commitment at Apple to increasing racial and gender diversity is as strong as it’s ever been. I’m proud of the progress we’ve made, but there is much work to be done. I’m continually reminded of the importance of talking about these issues and learning from each other.
Best,
Denise
SEE ALSO:
Apple’s first ever VP of diversity and inclusion says she focuses on everyone, not just minorities – October 11, 2017
James Damore: Why I was fired by Google – August 12, 2017
Street artist mocks Google in ads posted outside company offices following Damore firing – August 12, 2017
Here’s why the tech industry doesn’t need more female software engineers – August 9, 2017
Apple’s new Vice President of Inclusion and Diversity will report directly to CEO Tim Cook – May 24, 2017
Apple’s board has urged shareholders to reject proposal to tie executive compensation to racial diversity quotas – February 27, 2017
Apple Inc. fights shareholders group demand for more diversity – February 15, 2017
Apple touts diversity of recent hires – August 3, 2016
Apple inches toward workforce diversity – January 20, 2016
Diversity report shows Apple’s U.S. workforce still mainly white and male – January 19, 2016
Apple’s Board of Directors says a call for diversity is ‘unduly burdensome and not necessary’ – January 15, 2016
Apple leads Facebook, Intel, Cisco, Google on gender diversity among Bay Area companies – November 17, 2015
Apple’s latest diversity report shows progress – August 13, 2015
Tim Cook is ‘personally involved’ in improving diversity at Apple Inc. – July 14, 2015
Apple donates over $50 million to diversity efforts – March 10, 2015
Apple CEO Tim Cook met privately with Jesse Jackson regarding diversity – December 9, 2014
Apple adds Vice Presidents, more diversity to Executive Leadership Team – August 15, 2014
A message from Apple CEO Tim Cook on diversity – August 12, 2014
Jesse Jackson calls on Obama to scrutinize tech industry’s ‘lack of diversity’ – July 28, 2014
Tim Cook: Apple will release diversity data ‘at some point’ – July 9, 2014
Jesse Jackson targets tech’s lack of diversity; sends letter to Apple, Google, HP, others – March 19, 2014
Apple changes bylaws after facing criticism about lack of diversity on board – January 9, 2014
Diversity of thought need not apply.
Denise has clearly been put in her place. She’d better stay there, shackled in the chains of political correctness, or she will be quickly expunged by Apple’s thought police who are captained by the Chief SJW himself, Tim Cook.
That’s utter nonsense. And it’s easy to throw around the term ‘political correctness’ when you’re a member of a group that has benefited for a very long to for some very politically incorrect behaviors.
There’s a reason people of color don’t have much of a presence in various types of jobs–just as there is that women are underrepresented in many technology-orientated fields–and that has nothing to do with your nonsensical definition of ‘political correctness’ though what it does have to do with is an effort to ostracise-whether deliberate or not–people who aren’t white males.
Ah, do you mean the “white males” who built this country?
Delusional much?
Because they didn’t.
On the backs of the Native people, and the Africans and the Chinese and Irish immigrants because the couldn’t do the job themselves?
The native Americans just got in the way and were dealt with, the Africans picked cotton and were mainly relegated to the South, the Chinese – who the hell cares, and believe it or not the Irish immigrants were actually WHITE!
The development and industrialization of the U.S. happened due to the work and innovation of white European immigrants. You snowflakes can try to rewrite history all you want but it doesn’t change the facts.
I have been watching the ratings on this post for the last five hours, hoping against hope that it would eventually receive more negative than positive votes.
Screen this… begins by dismissing the First Peoples as useless and praising their ethnic cleansing. Genocide is good, because white supremacy is all about Blood and Soil.
He then ignores the substantial population of free persons of color in both the North and South, and the role of African-Americans beyond agriculture. They provided most of the labor that built the Antebellum South (most of the public buildings in the District of Columbia, for example). Beginning in the 1930s, African-Americans provided a major share of industrial labor in the North. But we have to ignore all that that because black accomplishments, like the Holocaust, have to be denied. White guys with really deep tans must have done all that.
He goes on to dismiss the largest ethnic group on the planet, which built most of the transportation infrastructure in the American West, with a “who the hell cares.” Evidently he thinks all those guys with odd eyes, pigtails, and coolie hats working the railroads and mines and the entrepreneurs who built prosperous Chinatowns were white.
He wraps it all up by suggesting that the Irish Catholics who inspired “No blacks or Irish need apply” signs in the mid-19th century were regarded as more than dirt by their white Protestant contemporaries. They were actually among the major targets of the first KKK in the 1800s; Catholics were THE primary target of the second KKK in the 1915-35 era.
His conclusion that the development and industrialization of the US was solely due to white European immigrants is simply untrue. Having fabricated this completely false “historical” narrative, he then accuses his opponents of rewriting history.
And all that gets at least a 70% favorable rating. As GoeB might say, “Nuff said.”
Counsellor, do not expect statistical portents of the future from isolated posts. The temperature of this bloodshot forum doesn’t represent that of the voting population. But if it did, you and I might be packing provisions into a boat bound for a faraway, uncharted island.
The only ‘snowflake’ is you. And obviously, you ridiculous tool, Irish people are white though they certainly weren’t treated as such for quite awhile.
Keep worshipping you twisted little fantasy. After all, outside of it you literally possess no value, and know it.
Yeah the reason is biology you anti-science bigot.
Re ScreenPhiles
Go over to the local University and drop by the Engineering Building. Take a look at who is in the classes and labs- those are the people who should be running the tech companies in the future. Not too many women- it is a sausage fest. Not too many of certain groups that shall remain nameless but are constantly aggrieved.
I would call that self selection.
Read the prior post to understand what that literally proves nothing.
why? (DavGreg is saying that just by looking at a engineering class you can see that only certain people are interested in studying tech which is borne out by statistical studies. We can’t let discrimination etc in other areas and history confuse THAT issue of tech schools)
Is there any indication whatsoever that (besides tech schools trying to limit Asians and to a lesser extent white males because there are so many of them) that there are barriers to prevent women and other ethnic races from signing up? High end schools actually have lower enrolment standards for certain minorities.
Forbes:
“According to a study from the National Center for Education Statistics, four of the ten most popular Masters degrees taken by men in 2011-12 (Electrical/Electronics/Communications Engineering, Computer Science, Mechanical Engineering, Computer and Information Sciences) were what I’d call technology focused. For women, there were none (they chose other types of courses)…. The real reason why there are so fewer women in tech isn’t because of discrimination, harassment or unequal pay (although like I said these factors do exist and need to be fixed). The real reason is that most women clearly aren’t as interested in technology-related work as men are. It’s a choice.”
“Diversity of Thought Not OK, Finds Apple VP of Inclusion and Diversity”
There, fixed headline.
Hah!
“Diversity of thought need not apply.”
Says the guy with a narrow gauge single track mind.
#Laughable_irony_fail
MakeAmericaGetaclueAgain
Forced to publicly apologize like the silly token pawn she so obviously now is.
Apple can make up whatever definition of diversity needed to promote whatever agenda is desired for the moment. Diversity is just another word used by libtards to support quotas and discrimination. Surely, Apple needs to determine what is best for its long term health: hiring the best people or not.
“Hey, honey, you like those AAPL RSUs? You’d better toe the company’s multi-culti line or you’ll be out on your ass lickety split!” – Tim Cook
Tim Cook himself, as a gay white man, should know that Denise had nothing at all to apologize for. Obviously, “there can be 12 white blue-eyed blonde men in a room and they are going to be diverse too because they’re going to bring a different life experience and life perspective to the conversation.”
There’s plenty of room for everyone at Apple’s huge, shiny, new HQ. All those windows ain’t gonna wash themselves ya know.
White men don’t know how to properly wash windows. I’ve seen it myself: they are essentially helpless. They need Latinas for that. And they need Chinese to keep their chinos pressed, and African Americans to polish their wingtips. And they need me, the Irish washerwoman, to slap ’em upside the head when they become too presumptuous, which is every five minutes.
I’m sure she got a good verbal-whipping by her oppressive White Gay Plantation owner Master Tim.
Maybe she should take a knee at the next Keynote…
hah!!! Love it!
Maybe I’m too damn old but WTH in that statement was the least bit controversial? Anybody care to fill me in?
It shouldn’t have been, but these days some people wear their nerves outside their skin; just as they display their beliefs on their shirts and bumperstickers. Snowflakes.
You’re going to wait a long time. This is yet another MDN ‘needle’ piece to provoke the entitlement brigade here which embraces nutters, malcontents, misogynists and unemployable_ deplorables. It’s a toxic mix but totally irrelevant in the real world.
Yessiree, this was a story made for MDN !
You can see the phenomenon at work in the fact that a high percentage of the comments critical of Cook in MDN’s forums imply that whatever the problem they’re jawing about, it’s somehow related to the fact that he’s gay (otherwise why mention it in the posts? Over and over and over and….).
There’s plenty to criticize about Apple’s CEO (hand-chosen it can be added by one Steven P. Jobs), but his love life isn’t one that has a thing to do with whether the iPhone has a headphone jack, the price of its new speaker or the design cycle and product plans for Macs….
Except for one detail. Before he was outed as gay, and later admitted it, Cook was already being attacked for all the other reasons. The gay factor was just more free ammunition. Rabid detractors are all about decimation, reduction, and humiliation. They don’t hear any grace notes in the melody of life, only power chords.
Those that were upset, were so because ‘thought and mental diversity’ is not good enough. There must be diversity in physical attributes as well; sex, gender, race, and other social metrics. They were upset because she implied that 12 white men could be acceptable, and that is not what some people want to hear from a diversity manager.
Hmmm….my fiancé is blue-eyed and blond hair. Of course she is female, and of Russian descent, but she also happened to be raised in a Muslim society (yes, a LEGAL immigrant) and therefore has Muslim culture in her thinking, so if the high-heels were on the other foot, hence females instead of men, would the “downtrodden” females who weren’t white judge her because of her color? Is there no diversity other than skin color? To me, the main difference between me and many others is not the COLOR of our skin, but the THICKNESS of it.
Its a shame that the very valid point she was trying to make has been lost in her choice of words. I guess the only criticism could be that that particular choice of words allowed those who want to see and exploit differences for their own motives to play the race card rather than take in her very sensible take. I think her apology actually shows her frustration with herself in allowing that divisive exploitation to take over the true message which is that true diversity has wider perameters than the narrow ones some like to portray it as which has the capacity to simply readjust prejudices rather than truly expand opportunity beyond the purely visual. It’s a narrow line to tread trying to vocalise it however.
You can’t win for losing. If she went in the other direction, there’d be a whole new group of people outraged by her words.
There can be 12 white blue-eyed blonde men in a room and they are going to be diverse too because they’re going to bring a different life experience and life perspective to the conversation.
The true racists are those who are offended by that sentence.
The other day when so many were cheering Smith’s original words that diversity was actually more ‘open’ and based on ability etc, I said it was all B.S and politics will rear it’s head. And yes, almost immediately she has to retract her words as pressures from various political groups like Black Lives Matter bite.
Diversity Rules as it is applied in many places today makes hiring SUBJECTIVE and rife to abuse. No longer is Qualifications key but some STRANGE subjective balancing act (Look how CONFUSED Smith is, Apple’s VP of diversity, she’s not even sure of her own mind and has to retract her words. Imagine the confusion of the H.R managers under her.. ! . ) .
I had said that Diversity and Inclusion is actually political B.S and hypocrisy, it’s unevenly demanded among industries and actually discriminates against certain groups.
1) UNEVENLY DEMANDED
The NBA’s players are 80% African American, yet diversity groups do not make the same demand on it as it does Apple.
NOTE: BOTH the NBA and Apple are BUSINESSES, the NBA is a multibillion dollar industry with millionaire franchises yet the same rules do not apply.
let me repeat that : they are BOTH BUSINESSES.
Why is it that NBA is allowed to be NOT diverse ? Do pressure groups like Jesse Jackson who protested against Apple or Black Lives Matter not know that the NBA (which is on TV screens near constantly) exists?
Why is it that one BUSINESS can say : ” we select DUE to ABILITY and NOT USA DEMOGRAPHICS” but the other Apple can’t.
No one gave me any good reason why this is so.
(I want the best Players in the NBA and criteria should be ability but I want the SAME rules applied everywhere. If an H.R manager in a company like Apple is biased and won’t hire qualified minorities then FIRE his AZZ but not weird gerrymandering diversity rules not based on ability which Even CONFUSES SENIOR MANAGEMENT LIKE SMITH)
2) SELECTIVE DISCRIMINATION BASED ON POLITICAL POWER OR LACK OF IT
when we have weird social engineering like this Diversity and Inclusive B.S some people gain while others are going to get discriminated against.
How can Apple a tech company reflect general demographics when some groups are not interested in studying tech as stats show. There are fewer women than men and way fewer African Americans than Asians or Whites in tech schools . These are just statistical FACTS, Just like there are very few qualified Asian BASKET BALL PLAYERS. I’m not being racist , just pointing out facts).
(i’ll talk About Asians to get the White component out of the way and Asians are ALSO a minority like African Americans. but they are treated way differently )
Apple a tech company can’t reflect general demographics when tech school stats are like this:
Look at Caltech enrolment:
CALTECH ENROLMENT UNDERGRAD 2016- 2017: 42 % ASIAN.
here let me repeat that :
CALTECH ENROLMENT UNDERGRAD 2016- 2017: 42 % ASIAN.
(in grad stats the Asian component drops and White Males increase)
This is similar to near all high end tech schools in spite of discriminatory SAT requirements (Asians need about 450 SAT points more than African Americans to get into Ivy League schools due to ‘Diversity’ rules etc,) except for those schools who keep EXTREME quotas against Asians due to political pressure (i.e limit Asians to 10% or whatever. I.E your SKIN COLOUR COUNTS more than YOUR SCHOLASTIC ABILITY. This is politically correct ‘diversity’ in many schools ).
(I’ve spoken to Asian Grads before, they laugh derisively about the ‘diversity’ policies in colleges , tech enrolment in companies (controlled by politically motivated ‘inclusion’ HR managers) as ‘TOTALLY RACIST’ )
They did stuff like that back in the day to JEWS, limiting qualified Jewish students from many centres of higher learning, denying qualified Jews for jobs to to their ethnicity and now due to ‘Diversity’ rules we are applying it again.
Again PLEASE NOTE THAT BOTH ASIANS AND BLACKS ARE MINORITIES.
but Since Asians are a POLITICALLY POWERLESS minority : no one, not the pressure groups or the diversity bleeding hearts GIVES A SHIT about them (I use language like that because people including those supposed caring ‘social liberals’ don’t seem to REALLY care and I want to emphasize the issue)
Some White folks are well meaning, perhaps carrying ‘White Guilt over Slavery’ like Tim Cook but there are actually fostering and encouraging discriminatory policies. But again perhaps its just politics and the Asians don’t have any political power while others do. Companies aren’t worried about Asians, they seldom cause violent riots.
A couple weeks back HISPANIC media personalities angry over their lack of recognition for Academy awards vs African Americans said they were tired of being nice and will start AGITATING , perhaps in USA everybody including tech workers need to agitate.
like I said the other day:
I’m going to get one starred again but that’s just the psycho social babble poppy cock we live in. The only lesson I get is that if you don’t have political power (like the Asians) you are f-ucked, they supposedly ‘diversity’ folks would happily discriminate against you and pat themselves on the back. Hypocrisy.
I’ll surely run my own company again and when I do I’ll have the HR manager collect the resumes and redact anything from them that would or could identify someone.
Personally, I don’t care about your skin color. If it turns out that I hired a cockroach with exceptional coding skills, then those that didn’t get the job can go home and cry on their mom’s shoulder.
I agree with your post. You would prosper as you would get the best talent.
I was thinking redacting non qualification info too, employers can also do skill tests and assessments. (I remember taking tests where a serial number was inserted instead of my name).
People today are not stupid, it’s a hyper competitive society, when you are risking your own money on a business you want the best.
—-
For those who read my post, let me be clear I’m not against any ‘group’. I just believe that talent and qualifications should be foremost whether it’s pro ball or tech.
There are only a few specific instances where ‘qualification’ might be ethnicity, for example you might need a muslim to market halal (muslim kosher) food in the Middle East , but most technical skill jobs should be color blind — diversity would appear by itself (if you just search for talent).
(if there are societal problems like schools being unfunded in certain ethnic areas etc . then it’s politicians who need to deal with it. When you have companies trying to step in all kinds of strange things and confusion starts to happen as seen by Denise Smith’s retraction. Subjective criteria like ‘what sex orientation, what race etc’ leads to all kinds of abuse ).
As a woman, I was on the receiving end of engineering bro culture for enough years to understand the fine structure of the word ‘resentment’. It is a powerful feeling that exists on both sides of the power divide and is extremely difficult to overcome to the point of exasperation. Once a hire is made, the feelings persist like molasses. The pressure to fit in is intense. To my shame I found myself deferring to male group leaders, even when I felt like objecting.
Once I became an independent contractor, the situation reversed itself. I was tempted to choose team members (subcontractors) based on camaraderie or like-mindedness, but forced myself to use established industry rubrics instead, provided by my old HR department. I picked a team based on statistics.
It turned out for the best. The team I assembled, especially Phil, were terrific and we did good work over a several year period. I might have had more fun with a gang I could party with.. but I’d rather have the money we made together.
It is all but guaranteed that this kind of thinking will only further erode Apple. Not being permitted to hire the best people for the job, regardless of who they are, and having to consider people’s ‘feelings’ will bring progress and real innovation to a complete halt, eventually. At some point, if we don’t come to our senses, true professionalism will disappear, too.
I do not respect Tim Cook’s Apple, I refuse to bow to the ludicrous PC police, I will not treat millennial kids as though they are fully-formed adults nor will I accommodate their fragility (that was their parents’ job, they failed miserably) and if Apple quality slips too much, I *will* take my business elsewhere.
Tim Cook is the biggest profit-monger masquerading as a hero I have seen in a very long time. There have been times over the past several years when all that kept me with Apple was their privacy policies. That is still enough . . . for now.
Pure racism from Apple’s head racist.
if we are now apologizing for comments like [i]’Diversity is the human experience’[/i] and [i]There can be 12 white blue-eyed blonde men in a room and they are going to be diverse too because they’re going to bring a different life experience and life perspective to the conversation.'[/i] then, we have become truly, deplorably asinine. mindless halfwits. we belong in the tress among the bush babies and marmosets. we no longer deserve to inherit the earth, to aspire to greatness, to imagine things that might be, to form governments with check and balances. every primate gets a nobel prize wrapped in banana leaves.
[i]“Apple VP of Inclusion and Diversity Denise Young Smith on Friday issued an internal memo to clarify and apologize for comments made during a business summit last week, reiterating that Apple is committed to creating an inclusive and diverse workplace,” [/i]
oh, for the love of god, ms denise smith, get some backbone. we are human beings. we are a world of individuals that recognize our community of human brothers and sisters. there is a universe inside each of us, a glorious universe of ideas, of abstraction, of self-correction. don’t apologize for how you really feel. you are not stupid. you are whole and powerful and wonderful beyond measure. you are no ceo’s lackey. you do not serve the mob. stand up tall and do not apologize for addressing us as a human community and not a world of communities of special interests.
“Remember that stuff I said about diversity including white men that I received applause for? I didn’t mean any of it, diversity is only for the select few.” – Denise Smith
Here’s what’s so screwed up about her skin color way of thinking. 12 white men can’t be diverse?
1. Tim Cook, outspoken gay activist, white male
2. Lost both legs in car accident, disabled white male
3. Served his country in war, veteran white male
4. Transitioned gender from female, transexual white male
5. Autistic, mentally challenged white male
6. Steve Jobs, adopted Syrian refugee
I just gave you a group of 12 white males which is 50% discriminated or protected classes. But she can’t see diversity past their skin color and gender. She may as well admit she’s only interested in diversity for the gay back female.
Here is the most discriminated against individual today – straight, white, Christian male.
Morgan,
Here’s how your scenario would work out in practice:
#1 and #4 are diversity hires because they are LGBT.
#2 and #5 are diversity hires because of disabilities
#3 is a diversity hire because of a veteran’s preference.
#6 is probably not a diversity hire, but can get a job on his own merits.
Where did you get the idea that the VP for Diversity at Apple is only interested in skin color and gender? All she said is that seeking “diversity of thought” is no substitute for aggressively recruiting underrepresented minorities as part of an overall strategy for promoting an inclusive company.
so if they have all the same qualifications which one do you choose, which one has ‘more points’?
e does a Black person trump a Mixed White/Black who is Gay? What about a One quarter black who is a Female AND Gay?
Which has more points: Black person with LESS qualifications or a White Male Gay, or White FEMALE what about a White Jew?
10 points extra for the Black, 15 for the White Male Gay? (that goes up to 25 for Black Gay)…. etc ??? White Jews are rich so minus 5 points like your comments that Asians control the tech world and should be given shit.
you see how ridiculous it is?
when get into the toxic stew of subjective political based reasoning you are screwed. No wonder Smith is going twits in circles.
Quite soon you will REQUIRE DNA TESTS and people will be parsing exactly how many percent you are Black, Asian, American Indian , White etc. It’s like the Nazis.
(I’m an Asian person all I can see is diversity racism. Like the other person said do YOU want to need to have to get an extra several hundred SAT points due to diversity rules to get into school like Asians need to . FU*K people like you. Asshat. and you call others racist.)
HAVE A LEVEL FREAKING PLAYING FIELD.
She shouldn’t have to apologize for anything. The ones who need to apologize are the ones who are forcing the diversity issue by discriminating against those who may be more qualified for the job at hand! Apple owes Denise Young Smith an apology ASAP for being wrong on this one!!!
I have really been trying to keep my mouth shut. If somebody honestly believes that straight, white, Christian males are now or ever have been discriminated against in America, no conceivable volume of facts are going to convince him (it is always a “him”) otherwise.
What drew me out was the notion that Apple’s diversity program is somehow “discriminating against those who may be more qualified for the job at hand.” The intent, at least, is exactly the opposite: to find those who might be most qualified for the job at hand, but who might not be hired because they don’t fit a preconceived notion of what a successful employee looks like.
When a white or (South or East) Asian male from Caltech or Stanford working with other white or Asian males from high profile engineering schools interviews new employees, he is going to favor candidates who fit that pattern unless he consciously fights his natural bias. Hiring non-diversity is a bad idea, because if everybody has a common background, they won’t catch one another’s mistakes.
In a particular case, the person who will bring the most to the job—the most qualified—might be female, or African-American, or graduated from a foreign university. They might even be a Syrian-American college dropout who builds things in his garage.
Yes, it’s the opposite, but Pavlov has the upper hand.
first TxUser I usually enjoy your posts and you seem a very intelligent and a ‘nice’ guy who wants to help minorities but I have to put a counter argument to what you say today:
“When a white or (South or East) Asian male from Caltech or Stanford working with other white or Asian males from high profile engineering schools interviews new employees, he is going to favor candidates who fit that pattern unless he consciously fights his natural bias”
That statement brings up a point…
In the old days most tech companies like IBM, HP etc were basically WHITE.
so if BIAS existed/exists in such a great extent as you describe HOW DID THOSE (SOUTH OR EAST) ASIAN MALES GET HIRED IN THE FIRST PLACE, that they are so prevalent today? If what you say is true the white managers wouldn’t have hired any Asians or very few of them. Isn’t it more logical there wasn’t so much bias (I admit there had to be some) but at the end Quality triumphed and hard nose business sense (“we need the best people”) won.
but today in this politically charged atmosphere it seems less about quality and fairness but political pressure by certain groups to hire CERTAIN people and not truly ‘justice for EVERYONE’ (I’ve described differences in how different minorities are treated in post on pg one. Asians are penalized while African Americans get extra for example ). The policy seems not to regard qualifications but just diversity weighted for certain groups — notice that Smith didn’t mention QUALIFICATIONS at all , she (like Tim cook as well) just keeps talking about “to foster racial and gender diversity,” which is vague, subjective and prone to bias .
Unlike what you are arguing they are trying to get “the most qualified”… there is NOT ONE WORD about ABILITY in her multi paragraph retraction statement , just that she wants diversity i.e reflecting more USA pop. stats (Again like I said in my earlier post why doesn’t demographic diversity apply to other multi billion dollar BUSINESSES like the NBA ? Why don’t pressure groups like Jesse Jackson who complained about Apple complain about the NBA? Tim Cook the champion of diversity actually made Beats ads with the NBA… )
Qualifications , Ability do NOT get mentioned because Diversity advocates know that if they did so their objectives of diversity based on general demographics would be thwarted, because like I pointed out tech school stats do NOT MIRROR general USA demographics. In many schools where Asians are 30-40%, African American numbers are so small they are listed as ‘others’. Whether we like it or not the reality that up to 2017 relatively very few African Americans (and some other minorities) seem interested in studying science or other tech company skills at the highest levels. And this is not Anti African bias in schools, (just the reverse) as I pointed out Asian Americans need about 450 extra SAT points vs African Americans for some elite schools.
if people don’t get what I’m saying the numbers of certain groups like African Americans are so low in Apple etc NOT because of BIAS but due to the STATISTICALLY LOW NUMBER of QUALIFIED APPLICANTS. And today there’s a political push to adjust the numbers up regardless of talent pool.
(my long post on page one talks more about this so I won’t repeat)
This subjectiveness and playing to the political gallery has made Smith (and Apple) so confused that she doesn’t even know what she is saying anymore.
Davewrite.
I have spent several hours pondering how to reply. Best I keep it short:
If I were “a ‘nice’ guy who wants to help minorities” it would make me a paternalistic asshole. That is better than being an overtly racist asshole, but an asshole nonetheless.
I am hopefully a nice guy who wants minorities to have the same opportunity as members of the majority to help themselves. They don’t need my help, because they are every bit as qualified as anybody else. They do, I think, deserve my support in removing the artificial obstacles to their success.
i had a polite post and you had a hard response implying others with different fact based vies are ‘racist assholes’ .
So keeping it polite:
you did NOT ANSWER THE BIG FAT HOLE IN YOUR ARGUMENT
here let me repeat it…
—————-
you said
“When a white or (South or East) Asian male from Caltech or Stanford working with other white or Asian males from high profile engineering schools interviews new employees, he is going to favor candidates who fit that pattern unless he consciously fights his natural bias”
That statement brings up a point…
In the old days most tech companies like IBM, HP etc were basically WHITE.
so if BIAS existed/exists in such a great extent as you describe HOW DID THOSE (SOUTH OR EAST) ASIAN MALES GET HIRED IN THE FIRST PLACE, that they are so prevalent today?
——
SO WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER?
you didn’t answer that because you can’t answer that can you?
so you are just repeating it:
“I am hopefully a nice guy who wants minorities to have the same opportunity as members of the majority to help themselves”
If minorities don’t get the same opportunities how did all those Asians get hired by White (you said both South AND East Asians) folks in the past ?
But today it’s political pressure to adjust figures to mirror general demographics regardless of stats like talent pool from schools etc.
I gone through it in detail so I won’t repeat myself but
HERE is THE YOUNG STEVE JOBS WITH STAFF AT APPLE
look at that bias… s/
“Michelle Quinn wrote for for Silicon Beat that Jobs “didn’t care about the gender of his colleagues, just as long as they could get the job done.”
Eye opening. I thought these “diversity” programs were an insurance for white liberals to buy being left alone by racial agitators. In the case of this lady, she really meant diversity of thought. That won’t do at all. White Liberalism needs an excuse to remain on top.
Hope she lands well. I admire her.
I think Young’s original words were perfectly calculated to assuage the fears of the group most affected by the idea of “diversity”: white males. Young likely never thought that, as a black female, that she would be open to the wrath SJWs. All of the sudden the impact of Apple, the globes largest ($) company, having created a position in HR to assure diversity hiring is of no consequence. Any comment meant to assure fairness to any one specific group is immediately decried as a slight by other groups. She is discovering just how thin is the tightrope she is walking on. I wouldn’t have her job for the world. Totally thankless.
I feel for her. This is a difficult conversation to have. There are minefields everywhere.
that’s just it, john. it’s the craziest thing. it shouldn’t be regarded as a minefield, not by anyone of principle and common sense.
it isn’t easy, though, especially, when you want so badly to keep your job, or get the next role in a harvey weinstein produced film or please the ceo of apple or blm.
we’re so afraid we’ll be hurt or wounded or unfriended or insulted. we have this need to be liked, we seek approval. we so want to be accepted and we want to avoid the risk we’re marginalized by our peers. it takes strength and conviction to say what’s right, unpopular and all be damned and then to stfu and consider another’s point of view. either we lead or we fall in line and do wtf we’re told.
diversity is the human experience. all lives freakin matter.
Just to clarify, do you really think the following two things are equivalent?
(1) For the VP for Diversity at a major corporation to follow the CEO’s directions to do the job she was hired to do—promoting a diverse workplace where people are hired for their qualifications, rather than because they look like the workers who are already there.
(2) For an actress to allow a producer to sexually molest her outside the office in order to avoid the dreaded “you’ll never work in this town again.”
One is legitimately work-related. The other is a crime. They are not the same.
that’s a ridiculous question. and what does ‘diverse workplace’ mean to you. are we really talking about the most qualified regardless of race, gender, creed, persuasion. obviously, it meant something to ms smith other than what she may have been directed to understand from her boss since she walked it back. that’s fine. she wants to keep the job even if it means towing the line for tim cook and articulating principles she may believe to be unsound. so, explain it simply. maybe, i’ll learn something if you do that, otherwise, the actress is just looking for work, ms smith, on the other hand, is being asked to communicate a philosophical position as though it’s her own when it is not, it’s the position of the ceo, the guy who wants to spend apple’s karmic currency as though it’s his own. it’s going to give ms smith an ulcer.
I’ve puzzled over this moral quandary for some time. You are a rich, powerful, and influential person. Do you try to impress your social values and religious beliefs onto a captive audience, or do you keep them to yourself?
It’s actually difficult to imagine the consequences of either choice in any detail, because that requires rational thought and empathy. We all like to think we are rational and empathic, but we aren’t, not hardly. We use social checklists rather than thinking and feeling; it’s easier.
What most all of us do is go with our gut feelings. And our gut feeling is that a powerful person should never tell us what to do.. that is tyranny.. unless, of course, we agreed with that powerful person in the first place. Then we carry their banner.
So if I were royalty, would I say “Off with their heads!”? Or would I say “Let them eat cake!”? Or like Constantine, make Christianity the official state religion? So many choices.. and we’ve seen how each played out.
“Do you try to impress your social values and religious beliefs onto a captive audience, or do you keep them to yourself?”
Steve Jobs kept them to himself.
Solid observation, that. Unfortunately, he was one in a million, like Joe Dimaggio. Whatchagonna do? Whine forever? Naw, just go out and get another Joe. They’re standing under every lamppost on every corner in America. Speaking of which, your Yankees could use one of these infinite Joes right about now.
we were down two against the Tribe and came back…next three games at Yankee Stadium.
I want Yanks and Dodgers in WS so bad! What a great October that would be.
If the Yanks obliterate the Dodgers, I would come and serve you a sumptuous dinner. 😉
🙂
Not necessary, your learned eloquence is a moveable feast.
Yes, I understand that you would require a taster. One can’t be too careful.
solomé,
A “diverse workplace” is one that includes some semblance of the diversity of ideas and backgrounds included in a company’s customer base. In order for the company to address the desires of its customers, it needs to understand those desires. Software written by a team of white male electrical engineers from Caltech is probably not going to anticipate how the rest of the population might approach it. When every member of the team has the same blind spots, the blindness reinforces itself. When people with those same blind spots are hired or promoted, those are not the most qualified people.
A team of people from a wide range of backgrounds is much more likely to produce approachable software. So, that sort of diversity isn’t just social justice warfare; it is good business. It is not good business to assume that assume that any employee who isn’t a white male from an elite background must necessarily be less qualified for their position than somebody who came off a cookie-cutter assembly line. They may be considerably more qualified.
That is the infuriating thing about so many of the comments here: they assume, with no proof, that if a company is hiring more than token numbers of women or persons of color, they must be passing over more qualified white men to do so.
In addition: everybody here seems to be assuming that Tim Cook directed Denise Young Smith to walk back her comments. She says in her memo that some of her coworkers in HR took offense, so she needed to clarify her remarks for their benefit. She might have been lying, because black women can’t make decisions unless white men tell them what to do, but I don’t think so.
There is no proof—none, nada, zero—that Ms. Young Smith does not believe both her initial statement and her clarification. While the end result she is seeking is “diversity of thought,” which theoretically could come from a bunch of blue-eyed men, the most practical means for reaching that result is to aggressively recruit qualified people from diverse backgrounds. That is what her department does, not engage in some etherial quest for deep thoughts from great minds. You may disagree with that approach, but she clearly supports it.
Frankly, I don’t think Denise Young Smith gives a damn about whether what she says is politically correct or might lead to being marginalized by her peers. What she cares about is running a department that is focused on providing Apple with the most qualified workforce possible.
So, to repeat, I think it is offensive to compare (1) a woman who supports her company’s official policies, which she has been implementing throughout her years with the company, with (2) a woman who lets a producer pleasure himself in front of her to get her face in pictures.
The True Faces of The Pedophile Party:
The DNC’s new slogan for 2020:
“Hey, Little Girl, Want Some Candy?”
TxUser,
the iPhone is sold in more than 40 countries each of which embraces a wider branching of diverse backgrounds and traditions. os sierra, too. but, isn’t having a community workforce of developers and their apps a broadway to diversity for both os environments.
who, anyway, is suggesting apple’s recruitment efforts, heretofore, have been racist or xenophobic or narrowly defined as hiring white folk. i would think someone of your social concerns would be more vocal regarding slave labor at foxconn or censorship in china. if HR took offense at ms smith’s comments i shouldn’t be surprised. look around, students and faculty need safe zones to shield themselves from conservative thought. many of my own friends can barely function due to opinion that differs from their own and, if any of them are in apple’s HR, then HR may be the real problem. if applicants qualify, i don’t care what they look like or where they came from.
yes, i agree with you, txuser, apple should hire qualified applicants no matter their background or ethnicity or persuasion. they build the hardware and create a digital environment for developers around the world who are tasked to generate unique apps for unique peoples of unique backgrounds with unique interests. where am i going wrong.
years from now, this generational epoc will be referred to as the modern dark age. world war lll will take place on the battlefield of reason. ideas, the artillery that with every wavelength will illuminate the modern dark age. all wavelengths matter. 🙂
Years from now, this generational epoch will be labelled not the Modern Dark Age, but the Modern White Age, for the resurgence of social and ethnic theories once thought defunct. Some think this is only a flash in the pan, but so did the first modernist analysts in the 1920s when fascism got its sea legs.
my God, Pipeline Timmy is an idiot.
While we’re on this kick of making everyone feel shameful and have everyone apologize for every little thing I apologize for being a human being, an imperfect atrocity that should feel shame for it’s very existence. Hopefully the left will accept this apology, as they are apparently the judges in this whole thing.
Bitch’s James Brown wig be on too tight!
…wellllllll…the first thing ya’ know ol’ Maxi’s a millionaire,
the kinfolk said, “Maxi, move on outta there!”
They said, “your own district ain’t the place ya’ oughta be.”
So, she loaded up her Cadillac and moved to Bever-lee…
Hills, that is.. movie stars! Pervy Weinerstein!
The Beverly Racebaiter.
(fade-out to banjo pluckin’.)
I guess botvinnik can say that sort of thing because he is African-American… oh, wait…
Any time you libtards get depressed, you can always re-play Felonia von Pantsuit’s inspirational Inaugural Address.
oh, wait…
bwahahahahahahahahahaha
MAGA
PS: That bastion of liberalism, pornographer Larry Flynt has just offered $10 Million for information leading to Trump’s impeachment.
The Pedophile Party is doomed. A democrat will never occupy the White House again…
ever.
Ten million, pfft. The bidding starts at one billion. Russians don’t fsck around.
Hustler Playmate Bio:
“I like long walks on the beach, a glass of wine by a crackling fireplace and taking my clothes off for money for a crippled sleazebag.”
Sounds like you, it does
MDN says “Diversity is certainly good” without ever saying why. Just because that’s what liberals want you to say?
Actually, if you read the MDN Take and comprehend what you’ve read, MDN explained why “diversity is good” thusly:
Truly looking at qualified people from a larger pool would result in delivering different viewpoints and new ways of looking at things and tackling problems than a more homogenized workforce would be capable of delivering.
Your argument is a non sequitur. “Qualified people from a larger pool” is not the antithesis to “a more homgenized workforce.”
Certainly, searching through a larger pool of talent is a good idea but that, in no way, means you will not end up with a homogenized workforce once you choose the best people.
For the first time in recorded history, I just gave a post from First2014 five stars. Diversity is a good thing because it produces better outcomes and makes Apple more money.
Glenn, companies are not in business to “hire the best people,” but to produce the best products. A team composed of identical genius individualists may have all the best people, but be unable to produce any deliverables.
We might all want to go back and reread the 1954 decision in Brown v. Board of Education. Separate is inherently unequal, because it deprives both the minority and the majority of the opportunity to learn from one another. Homogenized workplaces, like homogenized schools, are inherently inferior to the diverse alternative.
Step 1, Prove it.
Step 2, You can’t.
Step 3, there is no step 3.
OH what wonderfully flowery liberal words! I think I want to go hug a diversity!
Starting with “Diversity is good” is starting at the wrong place. Anyone who says otherwise should just donate their job to diversity.
Isn’t it amazing how a person of color can now get away with outright in your face racism, but if a blue eyed white man said the reverse, he would be roasted alive by the social media PC police and more not than likely, lose his job and be ostracized. No wonder Trump got elected.
So.. Trump got elected because diversity sucks. Is that right?
Yes
“A significant number of them saw the 2016 election as a chance to turn back the clock (“MAGA”).”
There you go again!
Not a day goes by where you again drift off topic back to denigrating possibly the greatest presidential victory in history.
The Libtard rallying phrase “turn back the clock” is inaccurate, racist, political and plain STUPID. It means NOTHING positive or constructive. It is used 100% of the time to DIVIDE and DENIGRATE groups.
Nuff said …
Sorry, response meant for TXuser …
Herself,
As I think you recognize, anybody who doesn’t think that one factor in the Trump victory was a backlash to diversity, and specifically to racial diversity in the Oval Office (the “Magic Negro”) and a disinclination to extend it to gender diversity (“Felonia Pantsuit”) isn’t paying attention.
The changes to US society since 1964 have greatly increased the influence of women, racial minorities, sexual nonconformists, non-Christians, and immigrants. That has led many white Americans (including some white women) to look back with nostalgia on the days before the Civil Rights Act made affirmative action a real thing. A significant number of them saw the 2016 election as a chance to turn back the clock (“MAGA”).
It certainly wasn’t the only factor or even the dominant factor (Clinton was a bad candidate running a terrible campaign), but it did make a difference in some close states.
Can HR handle the diversity stuff ?… an executive for that seems overkill
I guess that the greater your income, the less likely you are to experience negative attitudes based upon your ethnicity or sexual orientation.
Her comments reek of “I’m alright Jack”
Can HR handle this? Why do you need a diversity executive? This lady is overkill to me