MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

BB: "If you dont' spend your whole lives downloading internet porn like most of you probably do, or even if you do, and you AREN'T an idiot, then YOU DON'T GET VIRUSES."

If you think that is the only way to get a virus, YOU are an idiot. Wake the f up.

Teen: I want to webcam with MSN messenger.. You mean I can't do that on my Mac ... Hey Mom Hey Dad! This Mac Sucks!!!

I want a PC it's got a better operating system!

OH MAN,
What a big mistake, hope they they got lot's of body bags. Cause I work for Dell and what goes on in the plant and in the their products really suck bad. I feel real bad making the junk, but it a pay check.And now they is buying WHAT 15,800. Sound like future congressmen and ladies. Oh the country is in trouble now. You plant bad seeds, you weeds

Surely families which want an Apple Mac will still be able to go out buy one?? Why is this a really "the sky is falling" type of problem?

I feel sorry for those who felt and/or know that Macs are better - they're the one's who'll be frustrated over the next few years.

bisabuelo:
Don't need do do your research for you. No need for omnicience, just the ability to know the difference between two different metrics. Equating overall market share to installed user base in computer OSes is kinda like equating octane to volume in your gas tank. Sorta related but don't confuse them.

I know it's a weak analogy, don't get hung up on it

that's enough from me.

Off topic, sort of . . . I just installed Tiger onto my iBook 800 w/ 640 MB of RAM -- upgraded existing Panter without any problems.

Tiger networking and copying from a Tiger to Tiger equipped machine is faster -- Safari is faster -- everything is as fast as Panther -- perhaps a bit faster.

The only annoyance is that Spotlight is still indexing my drive, several hours later, and causes temporary pauses and spinning beach balls when trying to do some things -- Spotlight indexing will get out of your way, if it senses that you are using the computer, and there will be no slowdowns or beach balls -- but if it senses that you are not using the Mac, it starts up its indexing process -- be glad when it is done.

My iBook should be the same one that the school system has, except with more RAM. It is STILL perfectly usable for general purposes, except video or iDVD activities.

" A Dell with Windows XP "has a better operating system"

Michael Dell is gonna be scratchin' his head over that one for a while..

Dell, HP, and Sony are probably annoyed with MS these days to be running such an outdated, buggy, swiss-cheese OS.. Which is a why a few of them have been sending roses to Steve Jobs, with an OS proposal...

It is obvious to see how dependant people think they are on Office. Example:

I'm in grade 11 and bought a Mac. I've used iPhoto and the like to create slideshows, DVDs, movies, etc. Simple and easy to use.

I was asked to MC the grade 12's graduation this year and figured I could help out with the slideshow they usually do. Perfect! I could drop all the photos into iPhoto, hit Slideshow, burn in iDVD, and sell it. And it would look incredible (anyone who's ever used the combo know what I mean).

Well, I got the royal screwjob and "The Man" says they're going to do the whole slideshow in (get this!).... PowerPoint. Yes, read that again. PowerPoint. And they're showing me how much they've worked so far on: "3 hours of work and we got 5 students done!" They have 25 kids graduating this year. Anybody who's had to do a presentation in PowerPoint knows how long it can take, and how horrid the outcome is. Now compare that to iPhoto.

Then they want to burn it to a CD and sell it. Ouch. This means they're gonna force people to huddle around their ugly, 15" monitor and click through a PowerPoint presentation, while they sit at their desk. That is, if they have PowerPoint installed. This cuts out many of the people I know who are graduating who don't have Office, and people who don't have a computer. That is not entertainment.

With iPhoto I can burn a great looking slideshow to DVD, and let people watch it on their couch. That is entertainment.

The reason "The Man" said we couldn't do it in iPhoto is because it wasn't compatible with Office. Simply amazing...

To The Dark Side of the Moon,

That just goes to show how ignorant (and brainwashed) when it comes to technology and Microsoft.

Macintosh PC
Total Laptops 15,800 15,800
21,898,800 17,800,000
per unit 1,386.00 1,126.58

difference 259.42 Mac is more expensive purchase price.
We'll call this the "Mac Premium".

difference over 4 years 64.85 Mac Premium per year for each of 4 years

Question 1: Does the support-cost differential exceed the Mac Premium?
ie: how many extra support calls per year for the PC, and
at what cost per call?

Question 2: Is the software included on the Mac worth $259.42?
How about in terms of the exciting multimedia-based
educational opportunities (both in terms of delivery of
curriculum materials and student-created content)?
In other words, is the educational opportunity worth the
Mac Premium? This might not be a linear calculation.
Help fixing the question/calculation, please.

Question 3: What happens when you combine Question1 and Question2.

Question 4: Can the software included on the Mac (or similarly-capable
software be acquired for the P? If so, at what cost?


-------
MW: "them" As in, well, you fill in the blank..."

Adam Hall, a sophomore at Hermitage High School, said he is pleased with the planned switch to Dell, because it has a better operating system.

In his wildest dreams!

Bisabuelo:

Marketshare is a touchy subject among the players in the computer market (Dell, HP, Apple, etc). However, let me take a different perspective. Since we're talking about the education market, let me offer this tidbit: Apple's marketshare is more like 20-30% in the education market (exact figures, no. But much more than the 2% 'total' market).

Having said that, the Wintel makers have little to nothing to offer these kids that Apple doesn't have. In fact, Apple has more 'solutions' geared towards the education market than the wintel crowd- iLife suite, Powerschool, etc. Throw on top of that a MUCH more secure, and VIRUS FREE environment (ergo the whole 'how does one IDIOT acquire a virus' argument becomes moot).

The article above offers no hint at any real advantages that the Dell solution has over Apple (cost is measured in TCO, not just initial costs. We'll find out more about the TCO of the Dell solution in about 4 years, then compare it to the Apple solution which has just been discontinued. Only then can we discuss cost in a reasonable forum). It offers more FUD arguments ('scroll pad', 'better OS', etc), with no real tangible advantages, except Word compatibility. This is a sad state of affairs- that entire industries make long-term, expensive decisions based on things like .doc compatibility. Word is a word processor, just like any other (Pages, Staroffice, Wordperfect, etc). People happen to be stuck with Word simply because MS created this proprietary format. Problem is, the competitors don't stand a chance because of:

1. The buying mentality of institutions as described above
2. The bundling of the software at either a VERY reduced price, or free (hints of the Netscape war all over again). Dell charges the 'normal' price for MS Office on their website, but for this deal, it happens to be dramatically reduced. An unfair advantage, indeed.

Unfortunately for everyone, this is NOT good for the marketplace as a whole. All the rest of us are paying for this discount, and innovation is stifled in the meantime. Dell and MS have the $$$$ to take small hits like this, and MS has abused its monopoly in this manner in the past (this is part of the reason that MS should have been broken up, but I digress. Remember, it's NOT illegal to have a monopoly. It IS illegal to abuse monopoly power). If you can't see why this is NOT GOOD, then I can't help you any further.

Back to Apple. They provide excellent, well-built hardware, a stable, modern, robust, safe OS, and software that's second to none. TCO has been proven over and over again to favor Apple. Where's the Wintel advantage?

"The logo will change, but the FOOL is the same!"

So Dells are a bit cheaper than Apples but, as John Ruskin said: "There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey."

It sounds like they had motherboard burnout problems with the iBooks. The same happened to my iBook. Apple was terrific about fixing mine, but it is not difficult to imagine that this was a significant pain for such a large laptop deployment.

Hopefully such problems are behind Apple now.

I wonder how much this had to do with the decision...

As per NetCraft:

OS, Web Server and Hosting History for http://www.henrico.k12.va.us
http://www.henrico.k12.va.us was running Microsoft-IIS on Windows 2000 (Verizon Internet Services)
when last queried at 1-May-2005 10:28:59 GMT

Windows servers and Windows Laptops== virus writers having a FIELD DAY !! (or the magic word party for this post)

If there there is no virus/worm/spyware outbreak in this system, that can only mean one thing... a cover-up

... not speeking how ugly the Dell laptops are to look at ...

At the end of the day the decision came down to money. nothing else. Dells are cheap and nasty

Maybe they're using OS 9

bisabuelo:

My friend has a daughter in college with a 2 year old Compaq laptop running XP - I found 2,500 instances of spyware and 72 viruses. And they were not from porn sites either.

I have a daughter who has been in college for 2 years, and her G3 iBook has had 0 viruses and 0 spyware in those 2 years.

And she can do everything, and more, than any kid there with their Windows PC's - especially when the IT department goes around warning about the latest virus some student brought into the network.

And that, my dear bisabuelo, is THE REALITY.

"The logo will change, but the tool is the same. I'm sorry but you school officials are in for a very bad reality check. The Mac operating system and iBook hardware are no where near the same. The Macs just work but PC's need constant repairs and tweaks mainly because they are being attacked by viruses, spyware, trojans, and hackers. I speak with experience since I do this kind of work everyday for the past 10 years as a corporate desktop support technician. I've worked with both PC's and Macs and the Macs are way more secure with OSX and cannot be attacked nearly as easily as the current Windows systems.

Sure Dell can out price Apple in the initial sale, but watch out when you need to get all those PC's cleaned because they all got viruses that crash the applications you use or the OS itself. The teachers will suffer and the students will suffer but obviously you didn't think about that when you made your decision to save a few bucks in the initial sale.

Now you will have classes that will not be able to function because the teacher won't be able to teach what was on the schedule for that day. She will have to teach how to get rid of that spyware or virus of the day. And that's if the teacher is really knowledgable about computers.
Good luck with that 3rd world scripted support as well. You will have teachers on the phone for 2 and 3 hours with there support and they will be no help.

So count your cash because your going to have to spend it on lots and lots of tech support to fix everything.

Qman:

What i'm saying is, if your daughter actually knew what she was doing, she wouldn't get any of that crap. I've had my Dell running for almost 3 years now (I too am in college), and not once have I received a virus or spyware. If you protect yourself well and use common sense, it really is quite easy to avoid viruses and spyware. Sure, you don't have to protect yoruself with OSX, but that's just nature of being #1...by A LOT.

bisabuelo:

It's my friend's daughter (the one with XP) with the problems not mine. My daughter laughs at her PC using friends when they are disrupted with a virus or spyware and can't use the college network. (Do you remember Blaster?)

And yes, I also have a Windows XP PC at home, with hardware and software to "protect" it from all that crap. But I don't think that is anything to boast about. In fact, it's a sad state on how lousy Microsoft's OS' are.

Which to me, is the main point of all this - Microsoft allows it operating system to be sold on crappy $300 eMachines you can buy at Walmart. Or, if that's too much, you can go to your local flea market and buy a used system for $125. Great, you can save money, but you still have a lousy operating system you HAVE to supplement with extra hardware and software to guard against all the internet has to offer.

Why should we, as consumers, have to put up with that? I have a Windows XP Upgrade box in my hand - NOWHERE does it mention anything about guarding against viruses, spyware, email attachments, and so on. If Bill Gates would admit they screwed up, instead of blaming everything and everybody else, I might respect him. For a quick second anyway.

Using my Mac is a joy. I don't have to bother with any of that bullshit, and I can do more with it than I can with my XP.

I also don't believe in that "well, since they have over 90% of the market, of course they are the best, and of course they are gong to get attacked." Windows is inherently more insecure than OS X. That's a fact.

You don't believe that WalMart is the best store just because they're number one do you? If you want cheap stuff, you go there. If you want cheap PC's, you use Microsoft.

qman:

Microsoft's decision to allow "anyone" to use their OS on any platform was the smartest decision Gates and co. have made. Apple's decision to remain exclusive is what put it in the shithole until the ipod came along. Let's face it: not everyone can afford a 2000-3000 computer. There is nothing wrong with offering cheap options. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

When you refer to "hardware" to protect yourself, I'm sure as to what you are referring to. A physical firewall? If so, there is no need to use a physical firewall outside the corporate environment. There are plenty of FREE software solutions. AVG antivirus, which I use and believe is far better than any of the cost based solutions, adaware and spybot for spyware, zonealarm or now the built in windows firewall for firewall protection. Implementing any or all of those solutions protects you against 99% of intrusions without costing a penny.

Next, how did Gates screw up? It's hard to call a man worth almost 100 billion dollars a screwup. A man that gets fired from his own company, now that could be considered a screwup. Yes, his company has made mistakes. IE is a piece of crap when compared to firefox. XP has bugs and vulnerabilities. But with SP2, you will find, that from unbiased users, there are relatively few complaints. It's a continuous process to stay ahead of hackers. No OS will ever be 100% secure, not even your precious OSX Tiger. Anyone who argues that OSX is impenetrable is naive. If they can get past the mounds of security in front of many government and corporate servers that don't even run Windows, you better believe they can get past OSX on your iMac sitting in your living room. It's just a matter of simple economies of scale. Attacking Windows users produces the most results for the least amount of effort, so why not go with that?

Speaking of tiger being buggy, most unbiased sources will tell you that tiger is a buggy, unfinished, and rushed product. The fact Apple started working 10.4.1 before tiger was even released to the public should speak for itself. Apple announed a first half 2005 release date, and they stuck to it at the expense of polish. OSX is not perfect as much you would like to think it is.

Now through the course of all my posts, I have never said that Microsoft is the best as you seem to think I have. I am just arguing that touting Apple as perfect and Microsoft as crap is just a tad presumtptious. Both have their advantages, both have their disadvantages.

these guys have been using Macs until recently? and now want to switch back to Windows XP Service Pack 2 and Dells??

just what did those people from Dell tell them?

"Awww, c'mon! We're cheaper and you'll get used to the malware! Besides, if you wait about 18 months (give or take a quarter) you can BUY Longhorn and then your computers'll be almost as good as your Macs were 2 years ago!"

...they are in for one helluva asswhuppin'. just wait until those PC get crammed full o' spyware and adware.

"I have never said that Microsoft is the best as you seem to think I have. I am just arguing that touting Apple as perfect and Microsoft as crap is just a tad presumtptious. Both have their advantages, both have their disadvantages."

true dat. no one can really argue with this. i mean, you could, but the man has a valid point. the only thing i can offer by way of rebuttal is this... go to this site:

http://ciac.org/ciac/bulletinsByType/bul_vendor_list.html

in the Vendors section click on Apple Computer (Macintosh) in . scroll through the list. take a look at the dates and make a mental note of how long the list is. then go to the Microsoft section and do the same.
the list notes both known weaknesses and viruses for a variety of platforms. my point? well, in short, Windows gots a lotta "disadvantages" and more are being found or created as i type.
in this instance, Mac OS is far and away, without a doubt the lesser of two evils.

To Stiffnipples-sorry-NiffStipples, your comment was great, especially the bit about the "panter." 'Goes with your name.

"Off topic, sort of . . . I just installed Tiger onto my iBook 800 w/ 640 MB of RAM -- upgraded existing Panter without any problems."

bisabuelo wrote: "Speaking of tiger being buggy, most unbiased sources will tell you that tiger is a buggy, unfinished, and rushed product. The fact Apple started working 10.4.1 before tiger was even released to the public should speak for itself. Apple announed a first half 2005 release date, and they stuck to it at the expense of polish"

Could you give us a clue as to where these "unbiased sources" are? The most thorough review that I've ever seen of an OS was by John Siracusa at http://www.arstechnica.com on Tiger. Take a look at it, you might learn a few things about how substantial an upgrade this really is, and how it pretty much paves the way for Apple to lead the rest of the industry for the next decade or so.

As for 10.4.1, I'm sure they started that a while ago- that's just good engineering and dedication. Nothin' wrong with that at all.

Bill Gates caught the technology community off guard, as is the case most of the time when a monopoly as large as MS was built up so quickly. Basically, people were clueless (and many still are) about what computers really are. Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, and as such has been personally as successful as you can get. The rest of the industry, and especially consumers, suffer as a result. Overall, IMO, MS has NOT been successful for the tech community at all.

I do not know this for certain, but the Henrico project was running Mac OS 9 previously. I could certinaly understand why they might think XP is better. Heck, Win2k is more stable!

Now, after 4 years of dealing with OS 9 and four years of not having to deal with viruses, malware, etc., it might be easier to succumb to the Dell message of XP security and stability. Henrico may not have the mass experience of dealing with OS X and it's current cutting edge stability, productivity, and (especially) security.

Henrico got played, and played well. As so many of you have commented already, they may not have a clue as to what to expect - either from OS X 10.4 (in a positive way) or XP (in the secutiry and maintence realm).

Personally, I think the whole project is a waste of taxpayer money. They should spend it on attracting and keeping better teachers, not ephemeral technology. I know I remember and appreciate the teachers that reached me, not what kind of computers we had or multimedia that was shown. A good teacher doesn't require this stuff, the crummy ones use whatever they can for a crutch.

I just decided to scan my XP box for spyware, since I've been slumming the web for about 3 or 4 months now without any a/v protection, a/s protection, etc. I didn't find anything.

"Look kids, it may look like a rock with pretty drawings on it, but it's really a high tech computing device. Trust us, we grew up on these things and we came out just fine. We use them all the time. You won't even notice the difference. Just ignore all the hundreds of new, high-paid technicians that will be constantly at your side to fix your new rock, err…computer.

jdoc:

looks like a pretty in depth review you pointed to. From the parts I read, it looks like he has great things to say. Unfortunately, I don't have time to read it all the way through. The article I was referring to was actually at http://www.anandtech.com which MDN just recently posted on the main page. Another great review with lots of praise, but he manages to not get blinded by apple marketing and gimmicks to see a few flaws. That's all I'm saying.

It's possible for a Windows machine to be "safe". If it's not connected to the Internet and the user never shares files with anyone else. Sure it can be virus/spy/adware-free.

As I meant to add in my previous post -

...Henrico may not have the mass experience of dealing with OS X and it's current cutting edge stability, productivity, and (especially) security [including parental controls]...

But Henrico certainly does not have the negative experience dealing with Windows and its related support issues, only the (presumabley) bad experience with OS 9. I guess that's about to change!

My presumption of OS 9 was incorrect - it is "X.2.6"

You can read directly from Henrico County's website:

http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/Announcements/Dell/index.htm

http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/iBook/

There are details about the Dell laptop:(http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/inspn_600m?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs)

No details about what Apple proposed this time.

The Henrico quote about the bigger screen is off base - the Dell screen offers 1024/768 resolution. The same number of pixels as both of the iBook displays. Hey, at least you get a bigger computer....

One big thing in Dell's favor was the usage of MS Office. Perhaps Apple decided to stay with AppleWorks and not ammend the proposal to include Office? Or did Apple get forced to include Office and the "larger" screen and consequently get priced out?

I am a student at Henrico county and have had an iBook for three years. Before receiving it, I was readily exposed to large apple computer labs and other apple software. My experience with apples is comparable to that of PCs. I am incredibly exited that I will be supplied with a Dell computer next year.
The vast majority of the people leaving posts on this website seem to be loyal Mac users, and not any person who has had experience with the HCPS iBook initiative. The "help! desk" as it is called is always swarmed with too many problems. Besides broken latches, CD drives, cracked screens, and other damages directly related to the iBooks fragile nature are software meltdowns. Too many of my friends (and myself) have had terrible hardware crashes and other problems caused by a lack of training. An extraordinarily high majority of students (and teachers) in my county have home computers that run on windows based operating systems. Simply put, we understand how to run the Dells. Although the school system attempted to train us on the use of the iBooks, nothing compares to what you are used to and have years of experience with. I went through a semester of training on a class set of iBooks, yet I was handed an iBook without sufficient knowledge of how to operate the iBook. We were basically given a computer and expected to figure out how to use it. On top of all of this, an extremely limited number of loaner iBooks (if any) are available for use while our iBooks are out for repair (as they usually are). Dell has promised to provide us with a larger supply. Ultimately the Dells will be the best for the Henrico county public school students and teachers. I hope that each and every person who stumbles upon this will be able to look beyond his or her narrow views of maces and realize that this switch will be the best for us, the people affected by this important decision. (by the way-- if you are going to leave me comments saying that I have a close mind based on my age, please refrain from doing so. I am a student in the International Baccalaureate Program and have an opinion with much more valid perspective than the majority of those viewing this comment will.)

alright all you mac people out there. hi im devin i live in henrico county ok i go to deep run high and have been using the ibook for a very long time, it is a pain in the !!@# ok. it breaks all the time hard drive screan blah balh it goes on, and it comes out of my pocket. its ridiculous. apple may have a nice os but they need to get there ibooks together and there emacs. we use those 2. alright i am a pc and mac user and my pc has inevidably crashed due to viruses thats all my mac has crashed for ummm everything else. see my point im not saying macs are bad i own a ipod like eveyone else in my school cause every one is rich pretty much. so anyway the dells will be nice we need a change we have had way way to many problems with the ibooks and were sick of it. not to say that money wasant and issue but its not like were just turning on apple we have been with them forever, we were the first and largest to ever pull this off. and were still doing it for the elemtry and middle school kids thats whats gonna happen to all our old ibooks. and it doesant come out of the tax payers dollar to answer some of your questions. so its not really our parents probem if it becomes one which im sure viruses will, but it comes with the territory,. as for all of you who think that were all looking at porn are you friken crazy they have blck after blck its like impossable plus are you really that queer to look at it on your ibook we all have home computers, i have a 2000 dollar toshiba laptop i got a few months ago and a couple days ago my parental units lol just bought a brand new dell and my mom has laptops even my little brother has a computer in his room. so its not that big of a deal i mean my school is so rich the student parking lot is filled with porshes vetts lexuses benzes rovers you name it we got it, and the houses dont get me started i live right next to a house bigger that 50 cents on cribs. its ridicoulous. sorry if im bragging to all you people who were making fun of my county cause i am really not like this, but as far as you narrow minded people its all true and your little ibooks with there falling apart parts you can collect them at the mac for parts place in a couple years cause thats were there a goin. so you need to just deal cause it isant your problem.

omg, everything that "anonymous henrico stuedent" said is completely true. deep run is filthy rich, and so are a lot of the other schools in our county. noone hears all the times that people don't do stupid things on their ibooks, only when they do. i can assure you that a majority of the people are so scared to screw up their ibook that they only use it when absolutely necessary. our ibooks crash all the time, physically break, have software screwups, etc... and i know that there will obviously be problems with the dells... but ANYTHING is better than the pieces of crap that they give us now.

How much will it cost the school to pay for a virus, or whatever those guys catch?

Alright all you Macintosh fanboys. First off, I think that Apple along with all of its products suck, but I will try to leave my own personal bias out of this.

I am a junior at Douglas S. Freeman High, and I have had an iBook for three years. First off, I am sure this isn't a concern with most of their products, but the shoddy construction of the iBooks was astounding. I worked at the help desk and we would place bets on how many people would come in for broken backlights, broken mousepads, broken whatevers! Secondly, the iBooks were notoriously unreliable. All of my teachers warned my classes against keeping anything on the iBooks, and not realizing how bad the iBooks truly were, I took no precautions except to backup to the school server.

Right before a large test, I opened my iBook and to my surprise, every single document had corrupted. I depsperatley checked the server, and GASP, those files were corrupted too!

Finally, enough with the "Get a Windows computer and it will have tons of viri and spyware before you even take it out of the box" crap. Yes, there are more viri for Windows, but since you don't download much on a school laptop, that isn't a concern. Seconly, people are just as apt to search porn on a windows computer than a mac.

So finally, stop being such elitist bastards. Wake up and smell the roses, macintosh will never surpass windows in anything except fanboys.

By the way, check these out, you might find them interesting:
LinkLinkLink

Sorry, that last link is
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