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Hey Nick... go find yourself a girlfriend....





sheesh...

who needs magsafe and buit in camera? more like a gimik and out of the average people no one even usues firewire 400 not alone 800. About UI?? who really cares how does the operating system looks like? as far as the programs work on it, you're not going to make a leaving out of stearing at the preaty os (omg look at that preaty picture ooooo!!)

I dont have a clue where did that price for dell come's from? even top of the line XPS lap top doesnt cost as much and you get as good of the features.

MDN Magic Word: (sssshhhh... quiet) "job", as in Nick, GO GET ONE! So you can also buy your Dell...; then your time will be occupied with keeping it running.

Andrew is ranting about "exploits" again (yes, I've read all the articles about them) and Nick seems a bit... desperate. How many comments has he had now? 7? 8? 9?
Please do get a life. And also, while you're at it, get that Dell you keep saying is so "pretty" and has "kickass graphics" because it seems to be the thing you love to evangelize the most.
And Andrew, I've counted and there have only been, like, 15 exploits found. Every operating system has exploits, nobody's doubting that, but the problem is, nobody ever takes advantage of them. They don't really matter at all.
Although I really wish they would stop posting them all over the world fror all eyes to see because although surprisingly nobody has done anything to exploit the.. exploits, it's sort of an invitation to do so.
Oh, and by the way, Mac OS NEVER had zero exploits.

It occurs to me that the M1710 with 4GB RAM running Photoshop natively in Windows would sure humiliate a MacBook Pro with 2GB running Photoshop through Rosetta. Not that anyone uses Macs for doing graphic design work or anything like that.

So what's the point then that it "humiliates" MBP?!?

See, this is the problem with those pc folks, it doesn't matter if their shity boxes run circles around a Mac, because a mac user will only use a machine that can run OS X...
I couldn't care less for the Dells and HPs of the world.

nick are you a lawyer?
because i find your pedantic nerdgasms pretty annoying...
there's no such thing as a direct comparison between
apples and oranges anyways so i think
ballpark figures are more than adequate--
you don't need to bring out your calculator...
you don't have to measure or weigh them...
you don't have to repost every revision...

article made an ignorant statement that
MDN pointed out to be assinine...
your first post made your point (the first time)
but i don't think MDN's point was diminished at all
by your squabbling... and nitpicking...
if you really own a macbook just be glad you
got a good deal...

Fantastic editorial. I'll definitely share this article with friends.

Nick, you're comments where some of the few impartial comments through out this long list of comments. You should know that this is a Mac propaganda site. Everything is slanted here and if you try and talk reason you get blasted by everyone.

If the MBP is so superior then why doesn't it support 4gb of ram? Come on! The MBP is suppose to be cutting edge performance but it's underclocked (because it's cute design can't handle the heat) and it only supports 2gb of ram.

Bottom line is that the MBP and the Dell both have their advantages and disadvantages. In the end though I choose based on the OS and that's why I chose the MBP. I would have no problem using the Dell if it ran OS X.

Here's a shoot out, between the "$2,800 17" MacBook Pro vs. $2,800 17" Dell Inspirion E1710


http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/laptop/2006/0424_lt2800.html

Whilst I don't think the MDN example is a prefect comparison, I think it's clear that Mac's are comparable in price to Windows PC's when you configure them as close as possible on the major points. Even if a MacBook Pro was to end up being a few hundred more it would still be better value because of all the extra stuff; size, design, weight, iSight, backlit keyboard and so on and so forth, not to mention the arguably higher value of the software.

Bottom line is that a MacBook Pro is a high end machine and it costs a fair chunk of change. A comparable machine from some other manufacturer is going to be similar, maybe more, maybe less, but as a percentage of the total price it's going to be close. Any difference has to be judged on how much you value the extras.

To say that a Mac is twice as expensive is just misleading and stupid. I mean you can buy 2 Dell machines for the same price of a more expensive, higher specced Dell machine. Does that make the more expensive Dell worse?

Nice poem, crayon1... Or are those lyrics?

There has been no restraint in the subjectivity and bias of Dell versus Apple laptop performance and economic comparisons, and the added bonus of "I'm geekier than thou." attitudes. No doubt, if I want a thorough, thoughtful, and objective comparative analysis I would best look elsewhere.

Windows does not use memory above 2GB at all efficiently and for a laptop application 2GB should be more than enough for anybody.

I will be editing HD on my MBP, running Shake and Motion to the max. I know 2 GB is fine for mobile work. When the Intel Towers arrive I'll fill one of them with at least 4 GB and let the vastly superior OSX make full use of it!!!!

Putting >2 GB in a PC at the moment is little more than pointless. The 3 GB switch is not always acknowledged by all applications so you'll have memory kicking round in your PC that ain't being used. You might have bragging rights, well, until someone informs you of the above.

I shall be placing my order for a 17" MBP tonight and hence forth I shall be known as Switched....

If you're allowed to use coupons on the Dell price comparisons, can we use educational discount on the MBPs? they don't check, after all...

I priced the Dull I'd buy (theorectically) at roughly $2,800, which includes the equivalent of AppleCare. On price alone, that's an additional $349 in Dull's favor.

I'd buy the Apple, but like everyone here, I'm not everyone, and I don't shop on price alone. I liked the BMW and Ford analogy, but most people do shop price, all the time. Apple is kidding themselves if they think they'll make any inroads into the Doze market with $3,600 notebooks vs.$2800 books from a marketing machine like Dull.

Windows does not use memory above 2GB at all efficiently and for a laptop application 2GB should be more than enough for anybody.

I'm gonna share a real funniy piece of pcism sukcness:
I had an AMD box to run a banking app only available for Windows.
With 256 Ram, Windows 98 would run ok, but when I upgraded memory to 512 Mb, it ran slower!!! And no, this is not a case of ram speed or parity or whatever, because I changed the chip, I took the 256 out and put a 512 in.
Go figure...

What is the going rate for a Windows wipe and reinstall due to unrecoverable spyware/malware infestations these days, anyway?

Since no one else has answered this question, I'll bring it up. My company (A small local ISP) does computer wipes and reinstalls for $80 total. That's 2 hours of labor. If the customer has data backup concerns, there could be an additional $20 tagged on for Data Backup and Restore. We have had some customers come in as many as 5 times to have their systems wiped and reinstalled, shelling out around $400+ over the last couple of years. We charge between $60-$80 for Spyware/Adware/Virus scanning & removal and downloading of all Windows updates. Some people are willing to continue to pay for this over and over again, even though I suggest to them, through their rants of frustration as they fork over 3 or 4 crisp $20 bills, that they could save money and hassle by going Mac. I've had maybe 3 people actually listen and switch because of what they've had to go through (and pay) with their old PCs. Yet, the majority of them are still willing to pay through the nose to bring in their crappy Dells, Gateways, HPs, Compaqs and Generic PCs to have us once again, clean or reinstall their software.

Go figure.

RELEASE THE HOUNDS!

Dakroland: My point exactly. Boot Camp, is not going to change the average buyer's mind. We Apple boosters are using too much passion and not enough reason. All the spyware/malware/BSD problems in the world do not make up for the fact that Dulls etc. are several hundreds of dollars cheaper in the most common configurations than Apple. All the included apps like iLife are not going to change the simple fact: people shop price.

You're correct that MOST average users are not going to be swayed-- for them computing is an afterthought. I am seeing new interest in nMacs, though-- once the new Macbooks come out, I am helping new buyers buy. One in particular cites his Dell needing five major repairs in less than a year and my enthusiasm for my computer as the reason for his switch.

Even my staunch, Windows-only brother has recently stated that the only reason he hasn't gotten a Mac is because his wife would become a computer widow while he played with it. True or not, it's the first non-bashing words from him. People ARE paying attention to Apple's computers again. Mac share will increase, no doubt.

-Nick-

"Kick-ass gaming machine...???" Oh come on, give me a break. That has very little to do with hardware (for similarly configured machines) and everything to do with game developers utilizing the power that the hardware and OS are ready to provide. The way I see it I am in fact getting a gaming quality machine, but made to do work. I recently priced some Alienware hardware out of a gaming magazine and compared it to the latest Macs, Alienware clearly more expensive for essentially the same hardware on the Mac side. Will the Alienware stuff run games faster, yes; why? Because that developers write software tweaked for that hardware and OS.

Two wrongs don't make a right

All the included apps like iLife are not going to change the simple fact: people shop price.

That is why when people call me up on my tech line and ask me honestly which computer I recommend, I always tell them I own 3 Macs, and they should consider one too. They are shocked when I say that, considering my work is basically all about dealing with Windows internet connection issues. Everything they throw at me as an excuse not to buy a Mac is now so easy to shoot down. But you are mostly right. Some, not all, people shop solely based on price alone. You will never sway them because they cannot wrap their brains around a higher price being less expensive in the long run than a cheap Dell. I try to get them to factor in expected extra costs for software restores, spyware/malware scans, downtime, etc. but it hardly ever seems to register to them. However, there are many people I've spoken with over the years who DO listen, and they are proud owners of Macs to this day. They used to call me at least once a week with problems with their internet connections, but now I never hear from them. I have called them and asked how things are, and they are happier than they ever were.

People do listen, eventually. Whether they do it before they make a mistake or after is another thing altogether. In the long run, we have to be wise, not just zealous about our Macs. Know when to not push the issue, and just put the bug in peoples ears. If they want to listen, look for the signs and then help them. I don't consider myself a Mac Fanatic, but rather a Mac Advocate. I won't blast people for articles like the one above, but I will correct misinformation when I see it. Whether it's negative OR positive for the Mac or PC. The problem is there is so much of it out there, that people don't know what to believe anymore.

wow- "I can actually agree with MDN's take because it contains logic instead of propaganda -- a rare occurrence for MDN! :~)"

The regular MDN guys must have been out of the palatial MDN office lounging around the corporate MDN swimming pool and one of their maids wrote the comment.

Even if the correct price for the dell is $1620, that is still a lot of money for a bathroom scale.

Who cares?

People buy for different reasons. These comparisons on price/performace don't really matter or people would all buy the same product. People buy for different reasons. Cost is only one of many. Why do you think that there is Ford (Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin) GM (Chevy, Buick, GM, Pontiac, SAAB ), Mercedes (Chrysler, Mercedes, Dodge), Volkswagen (VW, Audi), Toyota (Toyota, Lexus), BMW (BMW, Rolls-Royce) etc. etc.

Dell does a great job of allowing individuals to pick the exact specification that they want in a computer. Apple limits your choice. Big deal. We will each buy what WE think is good value. Nothing else.

Besides, I would hate it if everyone used a Mac. It's good to be different.

Excpet mac isnt different any more, a pc in a preaty box and mac os x

I gave used "PC's" for over 20 years.
I have been through Compaqs, Gateways, I have built my own, this message is being generated on a linux Box made by Monarch, I have a Toshiba 17" lap top next to this box....well I hope I am conveying that I do know about different quality "PC's".

The Alienware Corporate Hq is down the street from my house here in Miami. Dell just bought them because Dell does not make any true high end machines anymore.

SO my point is: When the guy that wrote the original refers to a decent Dell, I am confused. I was not aware that Dell made PC's of the same qualitiy as Apple. In fact they just bought Alienware so they could get into that market. The Alienware machines (The only Dell owned subsidiary that cranks out laptops that are comparable to Apples) prices their laptops in the same range as Apple.

The computer lab down the hall from me is loaded to the max with new Dell's. Not a one has the workmanship or fit-and-finish of my 4 y.o quick silver. The Dells have chips with clock rates 2-3 times faster than my G4. Yet my G4 performs better because it is not bogged down with 20 anti-virus suites and 400 needless Novell applets needed to make Windoze network friendly and hacker safe. Yes and my G4 has connected to the net 24/7 for 3 years. The only exception being hurricane induced net outtages.

Let's compare like with like here.

it's so annoying when fsckwits compare notebooks saying one laptop is "1.0 inch thin" while the other is "1.67 inch thick."

They both have thinness or thickness. If you must, say the MBP is .67 inch thinner.

There's a lot more than 15 exploits for Mac OS x over this time and really it only take one.

When I read articles, dare I say fantasy's, like his it makes me think that anyone can do it. The article, although spelling and grammar were great, is just trash. Did he actually research the facts and figures or did the Dell fairy deliver them to you? A very legitimate question.....

He needs to have someone read to him the MDN comments and maybe somewhere in his "how to be a journalist" handbook there is a paragraph, page, or even a chapter on "boy did I really embarrass myself this time...."

Like Moka's Uncle, I'm deeply confused by seeing the words "Dell" and "decent" in the same sentence. Actually, I'll go further and say I'm not even sure that the two words should even be in the same paragraph.

Here's the thing: just got back from a client who - before we got involved with them - purchased an Intel iMac. They also have some POS Packard Bell running Windows XP Home.

Packard Bell is buggered even after running SpyBot and AdAware because the so-called operating system has become infected with a rootkit exploit, and I can either spend a few hours trying to figure out how to get rid of it or I can - following the recommendation of an MSFT VP - "nuke it from orbit".

Following that little exercise, we tried to get both the Macintosh and PB to use the Netgear wireless router/modem as WPA-PSK clients at a moderate level of security. Surprisingly (not!), the Macintosh did it unquestioningly whilst the Windows XP box running a Belkin USB dongle thing decided it would have nothing to do with WPA-PSK. Curiously, the symptoms were the same as for a Core Duo Samsung that I delivered to a customer the other day - three-year old PowerBook configured in 20 seconds using WPA-PSK, 5-day old Samsung forced to use WEP.

My customer (or, more accurately, my customer's wife) was given a 10-minute briefing on why, despite the fact that I make no money selling Macintoshes, she should switch her entire home and she'll probably convince her husband to pay for it.

I'm not certain what the inverse is for "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts", but whatever it is Dell + Windows must qualify for the part, as would anything + Windows.

Via Digg:

New $2,800 17" MacBook Pro vs. $2,800 Dell Inspirion E1710
http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/laptop/2006/0424_lt2800.html

Seems like a fair comparison. This seems a LOT more fair than MDN or Mr. Derk.

I'm a Mac fan, but MDN loses credibility with all the Mac zealot propaganda they write.

WHAT IS ALL THE FUSS ALL ABOUT? EVERYONE, PLEASE DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GO TO DELL.COM AND HONESTLY CONFIGURE AN APPROPRIATE XPS LAPTOP THAT IS COMPARABLE TO A 17" MBP!

RESULTS?

17" MBP: $2799!

17" XPS: $3148 ... minus $200 for the superior 1900 resolution lcd? ... totalling now $2948!

Please comment if I left something out.

Oh, and did anyone notice that the Dell left out the following: Keyboard backlit, superior Apple design, iSight camera, Magsafe, advance Mac OS X, and iLife 06?

************************************************************************


XPS M1710:
Intel® Core™ Duo Processor T2600 (2MB Cache/2.16GHz/667MHz FSB)
Operating System (Office software not included):
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
Remote Control for Windows XP Media Center Edition

LCD Panel:
17 inch UltraSharp™ Wide Screen UXGA Display with TrueLife™

Memory:
1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHZ, 2 DIMM

Hard Drive:
100GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive 100GB72

Combo/DVD+RW Drives:
Featured Upgd-8XCD/DVD Burner(DVD+/-RW)w/dble-layer DVD+R write capability


Wireless Networking Cards:
Intel PRO/Wireless 3945 802.11a/g Mini Card (54Mbps)

Video Card:
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 7900 GS

Primary Battery:
80 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery

Sound Card:
Integrated Sound Blaster® Audigy® ADVANCED HD Audio
Network Card and Modem:
Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem

Wireless Personal Networking Card:
Dell Wireless 350 Bluetooth Internal (2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate)

The writer's mentality is that you can get 2 hondas for the price of a mercedes. Therefore, Mercedes should really lower their prices to kill off Honda!

As the MDN example clearly shows, the 17" MacBook pro competes quite well with a similarly appointed Dell. The writer misses that this laptop is aimed at the high end. When the intel version of the iBook comes out, he might still be able to say you can get two Dells for the price, but again, you'd have to go 3 levels down.

Dell e1705 vs. MBP 17"

Strictly speaking as a hardware to hardware comparison.
Both have:

2.16GHz Intel Core Duo Processor
Same 2.0 MB L2 cache
Same Ram and 667 FSB
Same HD
Give an edge to Dell with the Nvidia Video Card

Macbook Pro is $2799
Dell e1705 after a $750 off $1999 coupon comes out roughly to 1415

Even if you take off $200 with Apple's education price you still pay $1184 more.

We know OSX blows Winblows away but.. can someone explain strictly on a hardware to hardware comparison how the MBP is more powerful?

What do you use your computer for that Dell's specs can't do?

It's basically the same.
I have only Mac's in my house, but since the pricing of the Mac Mini, I'm getting annoyed at Apple's pricing.

Microsoft (can't stand them!!!) became the richest company in the world through software. Apple has the best OS on the planet and still all you hear is "Apple makes their money on hardware).

Apple, release OSX to the world and Microsoft's market share will take a staggering dive.
It's proof, if you release trash at the right price, people with buy it.

I just think Apple's prices don't justify their hardware.

One quickie, for a hardware company they seem to have constant problems with their hardware. From their Ibook problems, to the G5 imac and now some heat issues with the MBP.

Lower prices, and get more of the world onboard.

Apple has the chance to be what Microsoft (they still suck) is, and they are not taking advantage of it.

Again, the best software and mostly hardware around and Apple is blowing it again with their prices.

If they would've licensed their roms back in 1984 and had Mac clones from the beginning they would've owned the industry instead on having an under 5% share.

APPLE WAKE UP, YOU'RE REPEATING HISTORY!!!

This is just stupid.

jderka derka made an asinine comparison and has succeeded in getting the peanut gallery all riled up. Lets face it, he was trying to insinuate that Macs are way overpriced.

Two unspecified Dells for the price of the MBP 17?

Give it a break. Since we seem to like the car analogy... I can also buy two unspecified Fords for the price of a Chevy Corvette. It don't mean jack$hit.

The MBP17 when compared with its reasonably close rival Dell is priced similarly.

Shame on you Mr Derka Derka

The initial price you pay for an object is not the whole truth, guys. Stop whining about it. Compare the Total Cost of Ownership over say five years, and then you can really compare two items. It is a sad fact, that a Windows box will cost you -- in antivirus software, in antivirus subscriptions, in maintenance time, in configuration time, much more than a similarly-equipped Mac box. I am an ex-Windows user and dealing with all of the hassle of Windows was one reason that I switched long ago. My time is worth something. Is yours?

One other point about the Dell versus the MacBook Pro, Apple's laptop has built-in gigabit ethernet. The Dell laptop doesn't (at least in the comparisons).

From now on, anyone, online writers, people who post to MDN, anyone who posts an article this stupid will be called a .....DERK.

Has it occured to anyone that the Dell looks like it got its inspiration from a Wolff tanning bed...

...so why are people under the impression that the M1710 is the closest thing to a MacBook Pro? The E1705 is a much better match. The M1710 has 4GB RAM capacity and a graphics card designed for uber-geek game players. It's a much more capable computer than the MacBook Pro is.

Configure an E1705 to have slightly better specs than the MacBook Pro (2GB RAM, much better video card, 1900*1200 resolution), and you'll be charged $2547:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=E1705S2&s=dhs

Now instead of comparing a far stronger computer to the MacBook Pro, you're just comparing a somewhat stronger computer to the MacBook Pro.

MDN - you guys don't need to lie and cheat to defend the MacBook Pro. Come on.

MacDailyNews, you guys are usually pretty good, but you're WAAAY off base here. The thing most Mac buyers don't seem to understand about Dell is that you can make a deal there. You can find different configurations, go in through company vs. personal sites, check different days, and even buy coupons off eBay.

It would actually be fairly reasonable to expect to buy 2 similarly equipped Dells for the price of one 17" MacBook Pro if you're willing to put in a little effort. You're still left with a crappy Dell, but price is definitely VASTLY in Dell's favor.

Can someone comment on my post @ 11:27am?

When we were talking PPC vs. Intel, you could make an argument,
but now we are comparing Intel and Intel.

And if you look, at an e1705 vs. MBP 17, it's basically the same components.

Obviously, a Core Duo 2.16 from Intel is the same whether it's in a Dell or a Mac, correct?

It's the same basic chips.

Is is too far a stretch to say that the motherboards are the same or at least closely related?

So, you are paying close to $1200 (base on my previous post) for what, a built-in iSight and magsafe?

You are paying over $1200 for OSX and a little Apple logo!

Can anyone justify that?

I guess you all forgot the warm welcome you gave the guy when he switched:

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/6659/

He said this time it was "cool, lovely and fast" but you all skipped that part?

At $1,999 it would be a killer.

Random: Why can't natural selection apply to stupid people?

Why can't natural selection apply to computers? Apple would be on tip top, no?

No, the MDN take isn't biased in the least bit. I configured an HP with identical specs and it was only $1954 (the dv8000t series). I could not imagine Dell's price being twice HP's price. I also see that several other posts have an identical Dell for less than the cost of the Mac. I call BS on your $4000 price tag. You also forgot to add the price of Windows on top of the Mac, if you're really looking to try and convert any of us. This site is such crap.

Of course one can buy a couple of decent Apple laptops for $2800, too. They're called iBooks...

And fooling around with e1705 config, well, it a few hundred dollars less expensive for comparable specs. A few hundred bucks is a few hundred bucks.

Now, if your e1705 dies much before your new MacBook, then obviously the Dell becomes more expensive.

You forgot the most important point, you can't load OSX onto a PC.

IMHO, Mac laptops cost more. Probably not fair to say they cost $1000+ more. But hundreds more.

If you want OS X (supported), you buy a Mac. At least Apple puts serious work into the design. And they are among _the_most_reliable_ machines made.

Plus, Mac users get seriously cool OS and software. And now the option of running MS Windows at full speed.

You should probably make up your own mind. If you think you'll be happier with a cheaper Windows machine, do you really need **Mac**Daily News to validate your purchase? They'll say you're nuts. Oh well. Buy your clone. You'll be happier.

If you want a Mac laptop, you have a roughly a half dozen choices: consumer laptop configs, (will we get 12 incher MBPs?), MBP 15 configs, and MBP 17" configs. If you're a real hacker, you'll get a clone and hack OS X onto it.

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