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it's all about cost savings

First Post:

Did you notice that the old iPod 40GB slipped quietly into the night and is no longer available!!!

This means that the single platter 40GB is on its way as is the double platter 80GB!!!

I hope we will see them soon

Cheers

80% + of all iPods are sold to people using non-Firewire equipped Wintel boxes. Since all Macs have USB 2.0 now (but not my TiBook ), then why not package and distribute just one product? That makes sense from a cost standpoint (as erk said).

Right on MDN. Like I have said elsewhere, at least they should give you the choice of what cable you want with your iPod if they are intent on saving in cable bundling costs - but to charge Mac (Firewire) users $19 extra seems to me a big kick in the teeth to the Mac community and does not bode well for Apples confidence in this conectivity medium.

shame on apple!

Shame, I think the shape of FireWire ports looks much better than USB's boring rectangle hole.

I think FW800 will live on, it rocks.

The iPod shuffle is understandable because it's basically a thumb drive with a cool music player built on top.

For the other iPods, however, this is inexcusable. It doesn't cost Apple any considerable amount of money to include the FireWire cable in the box and if you've got an older Mac that doesn't have USB 2...have fun waiting for your music.....to.....synch......slowly......

Maybe that's why they got rid of the cable. They want Mac users to upgrade their computers!

Pretty sneaky, Apple.


To those who may confused, the newest iPods DO support FireWire, you just have to buy the cable separately now

java:

We'll probably see single platter 40 GB and (double platter) 80 GB models in the second half of the year. Probably/Hopefully to coincide with 5G iPods.

They are still going to push Firewire for video applications. So, it's really not "knifing" per se... maybe on the iPods and thats it, but not in the video industry.

They are definately trying to bring the cost down for the consumer by offering USB 2.0 instead of Firewire. I think if they could bring the model out with the same features and firewire they would.

Heck 60 Gigs for $449 is a hell of a lot of music and photos for the price. And in such a small form factor. It wasn't long ago when we were almost paying that same amount for a 5 gig iPod folks! So I wouldn't complain to much really.

Anyone with an older mac already has a firewire cable. As long as they don't screw with the the dock socket and make it some non-apple standard shape ( like Sony Camcorders etc)- I for one don't need another Firewire cable to add to my already huge collection of duplicate useless cables.

while this can be explained as a cost-effective move, it's still a sign that they are concerned with pleasing the majority. While not necessarily a bad thing, they must be careful that they are not swayed too much by what the majority of consumers may think they want.

As MDN states "the iPod's connectivity is being dumbed down to match Wintel PC's second-rate "standards."
- What's next, firewire removed from the Mac mini to save costs? Apple should not feel the need to match the PC world's standards even if it means saving more money and pleasing a few more people. Pushing new technology (progress) is what Apple is good at doing. They should't stop now.

Watch the price of the cable go down soon. Anyway, the extra 20 will not kill anyone, and for those with older Macs with USB 1, there is always the option of buying a USB 2.0 PCI-Card. So, essentially what Apple is oing, it is giving you choice.

Magic Word "Fine" as in "It's fine by me"

Luckily that I already have an iPod and it came with the FireWire connector as standard. If I buy an iPod sometime in the future, I'd expect a FireWire connector to come with it since none of my Macs have USB 2.0 (which is slower than FireWire anyways).

The article comes from one of those 'We have to find something bad to say about Apple today' sources.

I wouldn't even give them a hit just to read the rest of the spin in the piece.

If Apple can't use the iPod to push FireWire acceptance to the world, perhaps they should just discontinue FireWire because nothing they do will have the impact of the iPod.

It was an idiotic move, Apple, to force Mac users to ignore a superior connectivity solution or pay more to achieve it because the majority of your iPod audience are too fscking stupid to buy a PC with a FireWire connection.

If you didn't think we'd notice, you were wrong. Be careful, Apple.

Does this mean the Firewire based seperate charger is also history?

Mac users are F***ed.

First it was no Firewire in iPods. Then came the OSX port to Windows.

Microsoft responded with Longhorn for Mac.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I'm depressed.

Good for Apple. USB 2 has a much greater reach than firewire and really who cares. Apple is catering to their primary suers and I hope the contiue on this path.

I'm in complete agreement with the article, as stated. It's not about the $20, it's about supporting a clearly faster interface which ships on its own computer products.

This move will not inspire PC manufacturers to include Firewire in any of their beige boxes, which before, given the popularity of the iPod and it's included Firewire cable, it very well could have. Sucks.

"I wouldn't even give them a hit"

You just did...

Firewire has one unique advantage over USB - you can connect device to device (ie., do not need to connect to PC). Since the iPod will have to be connected to a computer (PC or Mac) there is no reason not to use USB 2 since transfer speeds are sufficient. I do not believe this is a question of Apple killing off firewire, it is just a smart decision to go with USB for this particular application. I own a shuffle and eMac. The USB 1 is just fine for moving songs and books to it. I am sure that USB 2 is fast enough to quickly fill a larger drive iPod. What is the big deal

ricki,

"Because of its design, iPod shuffle cannot be connected to the USB ports on the side of eMac computers—it will not fit." - Apple Computer.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300589

Why are you lying to us, ricki?

Since this is only on the iPod photo for now, maybe this is a part of what will connect the iPod photo to a camera. After all, most cameras ARE USB and not FireWire, so if you're getting the iPod photo as a way to store photos from your camera, why have a FireWire AND USB cable when USB will do just fine?

I'm a huge Apple fan and think this is a very smart move by Apple.

They've got no need to 'push' firewire through their ipod line just because it's theirs. They realize that usb2 more than meets the needs of speed for music transfers on the ipod, and now that most new macs ship with usb-2, they're not letting down anyone. And 'dumbing down' the ipod!?!? Then I guess they dumbed down all Macs when they put in USB-2 support.

This move just shows that Apple is a smart computer company that is not afraid to make innovative and industry-changing moves....but has the sense to adopt something if it works. USB-2 works for the ipod.

For years we all complained that Apple stuck too strongly to its NIH (Not Invented Here) approach, now when they actually have a product that brings in revenue from PC users we complain that they use a technology NIH. Whatever. After all, it was Apple who made the Intel-developed USB popular. Without Apple PC users would still be connecting printers with 1284 cables and keyboards with PS/2 cables.

Also, rickl is right. You don't need the added advantages of FireWire with an iPod. With a FireWire equipped digtital camcorder you can record directly to disk instead of tape saving the import time (a device to device connection). It isn't as if you can connect an iPod to a CD player which will transfer encoded songs to the iPod; you still need a computer and iTunes for that.

Truth detector - I guess I wouldn't know since I connect mine to the most convenient USB port - the one on the keyboard - but your comment shows that you have totally missed my point - some truth detector you are. Thanks for the irrelevent tidbit though, it may mean something to someone.

Well, I'm happy because it means one travel charger that will work for both the iPod Shuffle and the new iPod Photo I've just ordered. Time to be pragmatic - I will still probably use the Firewire cable I've got from my old iPod when synching with the computer, because in my experience it's faster and less problematic. But let's not forget that USB languished until Apple adopted it on the iMac - so USB and Macs go hand in hand.

...and as for not being able to plug it into the USB port on your eMac, well, a USB extended cable costs about $1 - in fact one came with my Apple keyboard, you can have it if you like...

I think this can be taken care of if Apple just allows customers to bring in the USB 2 cord that comes with the iPOd and exchange it for hte FIrewire cord.

I can understand Apple not including both it eats into the margin.

Good business move.

ricki,

USB2 has a burst max transfer rate of 480. Burst means a very short rush of data. The rest of the time the actual sustained throughput is MUCH slower. Firewire on the other hand is capable of sustained, continuous 400 throughput. Its MUCH MUCH faster and more reliable for transfering large amounts of data, like say 60 gig of photos and/ or music.

The basic iPod connector hasn't changed. Mac and other firewire users just have to buy a cable. Sorry, but its the same deal with buying a printer. Cable not included. Not that big of a deal for the price, HUGE deal in real life data transfer performance.

They've got no need to 'push' firewire through their ipod line just because it's theirs. They realize that usb2 more than meets the needs of speed for music transfers on the ipod, and now that most new macs ship with usb-2, they're not letting down anyone. And 'dumbing down' the ipod!?!? Then I guess they dumbed down all Macs when they put in USB-2 support.

The problem isn't that Apple is offering USB 2 as well as FireWire 400 with their iPod products. The problem lies in the fact that Apple was shipping both USB and FireWire cables with the iPods so the user had a choice out of the box, but now they're snubbing their nose to their own loyal customer base, which primarily use FireWire for high speed connectivity with external devices. Even today with USB 2.0 versus FireWire 400, FireWire is still faster as every benchmark has shown.

http://barefeats.com/usb2.html

Good move by Apple. They're listening to the market and delivering what the customers want. How can people complain about that? If you want a firewire cable, buy one.

Good move by Apple. They're listening to the market and delivering what the customers want. How can people complain about that? If you want a firewire cable, buy one.

It's as easy as saying; "you want a USB cable, buy one".

I can't believe the reaction to this. Who cares if it's USB2 or Firewire? Sure, Firewire is superior but USB2 isn't bad. Apple made an economic move. Hopefully, their stock will continue to climb...

And the question is; why buy a USB cable for $20 bucks, when you can buy a FireWire card for the same amount at your local Wal-Mart? So why do Mac users have to suffer, when PC users should just get on-board and expand their freakin' tower (since that's why they own a PC in the first place)!

MDN Magic Word; question

Gee - my third post, sorry folks. Truth Detector, according to Apple, my shuffle should not be connected to my eMac keyboard because it supposedly will not charge. However, it is doing it just fine. There may some differences in the eMac models.

Darknite - thanks for the info, however, in most cases, you will fill up as much of your 60GB ipod as you can, ONCE, and thereafter incrementally add small amounts of data (songs). USB 2 is still more that adequate. Maybe if you are using it primarily as a portable hard drive then firewire is the choice. I still think this is a non issue. And Firewire still has a great potential for the future.

"Note to Apple: be very careful with your Mac users. Do not force Mac users into substandard "solutions" just because that's what the majority of Wintel PC users happen to be stuck with. Remember the people that kept your company going for many bleak years. "

Ridiculous! Those users that stayed with Apple through the bleak years proved that Apple need not worry about them at all. They'll stick through anything. Mac users are one demographic that Apple need not be careful with.

DudeMac,

Good question. Firewire card for PC users is the same price as the firewire cable for mac users. So, it would seem that the 2% marketshare myth has struck at mac users from inside Apple itself. How is that for irony?

MDN word = tax? As in now Apple charges Mac users an Apple Tax?

ph8te wrote: "and for those with older Macs with USB 1, there is always the option of buying a USB 2.0 PCI-Card."

Unless, like the vast majority of Mac users, you have an iMac, eMac, iBook, or PowerBook.

I think people have lost sight of the fact that a 4GB mini + FireWire cable still costs $31 less today than the same thing did yesterday. And there's now an iPod at every $50 price point from $99 up to $349. The iPod family matured in a big way this morning and all we can do is complain about a $19 cable!

hey, my firewire ports are full. I am glad I have the option of using an open USB port. Do not have to diconnect the fire wire hardrive that HOLDS ALL MY ITUNES. can you say USB compatability is a feature/benefit?

This is the typical crap that happens when a loser (Al Gore) is "thieving money" form us, the Mac loyalist…

Let the herd of lemmins run wild…and feed on USB2 but, FireWire should not be ignored!

Folks, don't be silly!
Apple cut the price of these new models by some $50. The FireWire cable costs $20. Do the math. You still save, and Apple makes it easier for the the majority of non-FireWire owning PC folks to pick up an iPod.

And on another note: If you want the extra benefits of FireWire, why not pay for it?

All in all, this Apple made a good business decision. Mind you, if they nix the FireWire connectivity altogether in the non-Flash 'Pods, then I'd have concerns.

Folks, don't be silly!
Apple cut the price of these new models by some $50. The FireWire cable costs $20. Do the math. You still save, and Apple makes it easier for the the majority of non-FireWire owning PC folks to pick up an iPod.

You do the math; a FireWire card can be had for $20 bucks and PC users always tout why they like their PC, because they can expand it. Well go and get a FireWire card and expand away!!!

bdb, I agree with you. The fact that Apple has dropped prices and increased capacity on an iPod model is GREAT news.

MDN word expected .... Mac users are expected to display this sort of behavior when they feel the least bit slighted over the most trivial of $19 items.

I would understand this response if Apple nixed the FireWire interface, but not over leaving the cable out.

Dudemac Quote: "The problem isn't that Apple is offering USB 2 as well as FireWire 400 with their iPod products. The problem lies in the fact that Apple was shipping both USB and FireWire cables with the iPods so the user had a choice out of the box, but now they're snubbing their nose to their own loyal customer base, which primarily use FireWire for high speed connectivity with external devices. Even today with USB 2.0 versus FireWire 400, FireWire is still faster as every benchmark has shown."

They're not snubbing their nose to their loyal customer base. That'd be the case if they discontinued firewire support. But (like I said the first time) now that most macs include usb-2 support, they've decided to adopt that as the standard ipod interface. So what if firewire is faster. Are you gonna be that pissed that it takes 7.5 minutes vs. 6.23 minutes for your songs to load?!? Is your data transfer rate that critical. Apple computer made a good business decision for the most people (that includes mac people).

Apple's in a difficult position here. They want to support firewire over USB against an array of Intel-galvanized forces. And it is a better standard, better even then USB2. But they've also introduced firewire 800. FW800 is more than a year old and where is it? No market penetration. I think this is the death knell for 1sts-gen firewire. Apple will let it languish and fade away. It's okay though: as before there was USB and the superior firewire, soon there will again be two standards: USB2 and the superior FW800.

Question is, aside from giving in to that reality, how does this move push FW800. Maybe Apple should sell a dock connector-to-FW800 cable, for $19, promising faster transfers.

Also, can you do target disk mode with FW800? target disk mode is in my view a killer app, worth using one cable instead of another, and by itself worth using OS X instead of Windows. (Though there are of course other reasons as well...)

As I said in the other thread this is no big deal. Just about every Mac user already owns an iPod which means they already have a firewall cable that can be used with the new models. Apple knows that so stop complaining over trivial things people.

What I said in the Board of Directors Meeting:

Who cares? They're Mac users. They're used to being charged more because they're Mac users. so we'll do it to them, too. We'll make USB 2.0 standard - we have to accommodate our Wintel PC users who are buying the most iPods. Charge the Mac minority an extra $20 for the FireWire cable - they'll pay it without a whimper. Oh, we invented FireWire? Must have been while I "was away." Listen, nobody will notice that we're mistreating Mac users and charging them extra to use the standard and superior built-in FireWire connectivity that we sold them. The Mac users will just pay it. We must consider the needs of our Wintel PC iPod buyers first and foremost.

Apple is fscking up due to their GREED. It is clear that Apple is mistreating Mac users here in favor of Wintel PC users. A Mac user scorned can be quite a dangerous animal. Be very afraid, Apple. Apple needs to reconsider and fix this obvious mistake ASAP.