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Steve Jobs: Microsoft copied original Apple Mac with Windows 95, now they’re copying us again
Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 09:57 AM EDT

In his first extended interview since undergoing surgery for pancreatic cancer last summer, Apple CEO Steve Jobs talked with Fortune Magazine's Brent Schlender.

"As we'll see, software wizardry is how Steve brought Apple back from oblivion and even breathed new life into the Mac, which turned 20 years old the day we sat down to talk. Software, in a word, is the genie in Apple's multibillion-dollar hardware business... Think back about just how irrelevant Apple seemed even two years ago. Its share of the personal-computing market had shrunk inexorably throughout the 1990s to a tiny 2%... By the late 1990s, Apple was making even its most loyal users doubt the point of sticking with the company. Its operating system was an unstable patchwork, and programmers were growing ever more reluctant to write for Macs or adapt their PC programs to run on the machines. Apple knew it needed help. It turned to a man who had started it all: Steve Jobs.

Some interesting tidbits come to light in Schlender's article:
- That deal where Microsoft bought $150 million of non-voting Apple stock is now worth well over $1 billion.
- Schlender describes Mac OS X as "the software equivalent of a cross between a Porsche and an Abrams tank: an operating system with sleek, animated graphics and an abundance of useful and novel features built on top of industrial-strength code."
- Adobe blew it: "In a 1998 meeting in which Jobs asked Adobe Systems executives to develop a Mac version of their consumer video-editing program changed his mind. 'They said flat-out no,' Jobs recalls. 'We were shocked, because they had been a big supporter in the early days of the Mac. But we said, 'Okay, if nobody wants to help us, we're just going to have to do this ourselves,'" Schlender reports.
- That started Apple's Applications Software Division which is now a 1,000-engineer-strong group.
- Schlender writes, "Jobs sees applications like iLife as the centerpiece of his marketing strategy, which is to differentiate the Macintosh from Windows PCs by positioning it as a complete multimedia machine. Right out of the box, the Mac with iLife gives users (especially the creative types) everything they need for creating, editing, managing, and playing digital content. While comparable applications are available for Windows machines, matching what Apple initially throws in free costs hundreds of dollars, and the various Windows programs don't interact easily with one another. "Everyone in every corner of the software business could learn a lot from iLife," says Bill Joy, the legendary computer scientist, now a Silicon Valley venture capitalist."
- "'I felt like a dope,' says Jobs, thinking back to summer 2000, when his fixation on perfecting video editing on the Mac distracted him from noticing that millions of kids were using computers and CD burners to make audio CDs and to download digital songs called MP3s from illegal online services like Napster. Yes, even Jobs, the technological visionary of his generation, occasionally gets caught looking in the wrong direction. 'I thought we had missed it. We had to work hard to catch up,'" Schlender writes. Apple did more than catch up, as we all know.

There's so much information in the full article - it's an embarrassment of riches. There are the stories of how iTunes came to be (started from scratch and pounded out in less than four months), how the iPod was born in November 2001 (another crash project that yielded the iPod in just nine months), and the enormous challenge of creating the iTunes Music Store.

Schlender reports, "Merrill Lynch analyst Steve Milunovich predicts that the iPod business alone will hit $6.2 billion in fiscal 2006, roughly as big as all of Apple when Jobs took over."

"Apple has cast a shadow over Microsoft too. Jobs likes to say that the upcoming Tiger version of OS X will have everything that Bill Gates and Microsoft are promising in Longhorn, the often delayed major upgrade of Windows, now due in mid-2006. 'They copied the original Mac with Windows 95,' Jobs gloats, 'and now they're going to be copying us again,'" Schlender reports. "Mac OS X is so solid that Apple is beginning to sell Macs into markets that never before would even consider them, like the military and university supercomputer centers. Most tantalizing of all is scuttlebutt that three of the biggest PC makers are wooing Jobs to let them license OS X and adapt it to computers built around standard Intel chips. Why? They want to offer customers, many of whom are sick of the security problems that go with Windows and tired of waiting for Longhorn, an alternative."

This article just keeps going, a highly-recommended read, (subscription required for full article) here.

Related MacDailyNews articles:
iPod success opens door to Mac OS X on Intel - March 04, 2004

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Feb 08, 05 - 11:38 am Comment from: MacMan

Great read...I wonder where we are going next?

Magic Word: Use

Feb 08, 05 - 11:49 am Comment from: George

For a good laugh, go read what our favorite idiot (Paul) has to say about this.

Feb 08, 05 - 11:51 am Comment from: lenzcap

damn supscriptions

Feb 08, 05 - 11:59 am Comment from: Keith in Tokyo

Someone post the whole thing somewhere, please . . .

Feb 08, 05 - 12:07 pm Comment from: Tommy Boy

"Most tantalizing of all is scuttlebutt that three of the biggest PC makers are wooing Jobs to let them license OS X and adapt it to computers built around standard Intel chips."

Before the Lenovo deal I would say IBM, sure (IBM should be selling OS X and not Linux). HP, definitely (HP should be offering OS X and not HP/UX). Sony Vaio laptops running OS X, absolutely.

Sure the last time that the Mac OS was licensed it was bad, but that was because Apple didn't license to a player with a built-in base that would give the Mac OS instant credibility.

Do not under any circumstances ever license to Dell. That would be a sure way to cannibalize, rather than grow, sales just like the 90s licensees did.

Feb 08, 05 - 12:09 pm Comment from: Less is More

Stevie is a deal maker; Billy a deal breaker -- who would you rather deal with? And when the deals are done and translated into product or service, the man in the black turtleneck will take to the stage and sow shock and awe.

I wonder where are we going next?

Fasten seatbelts.

Feb 08, 05 - 12:15 pm Comment from: num_flux

"scuttlebutt that three of the biggest PC makers are wooing Jobs to let them license OS X" - That would then be IBM, Sony, and HP, don't you think so?

And the less Apple becomes dependent on its own mac hardware sales (which is where they are going to, selling iPods like nuts), the more likely this option gets. - Time will tell...

Feb 08, 05 - 12:26 pm Comment from: Bill

num_flux, the beautiful thing about mac hardware is that it's beautiful. I wouldn't want to lose that.

Feb 08, 05 - 12:30 pm Comment from: ken

License OS X? That might have been on the table (at least for the PC makers) before the Mac mini, but very strong sales of the mini will force a rethink.

The challenge is identifying the markets that a license would be viable. Forget the $399 with KMD - putting out crap computers would only hurt OS X and the Mac when they crapped out in a few months.

The interesting point about Sony is that their new PlayStation 3 is going to use an IBM chip. Apple has invested sufficient millions in the Gx chips to have a say (and receive royalties) from any one who wants to use it.

Lots of "what ifs" to think about, but if anything happens you know Steve J will come up with something we didn't think of.

Should be fun to follow.

Feb 08, 05 - 12:31 pm Comment from: Blair

Can anybody please supply the full article

Feb 08, 05 - 12:43 pm Comment from: Harry

Oh no, Apple should not make the same mistake by liscensing OS X...

Feb 08, 05 - 12:58 pm Comment from: JJ

I think it would be very interesting if Apple did license OSX.

Imagine how many Windows developers would do a double take!!!

Feb 08, 05 - 12:59 pm Comment from: Duck0987

I can see apple licensing to HP and IBM for business level machines such as servers running OS X server, but I don't see the whole sony consumer market. I think this is something that Steve will want to keep for himself. Sony make a very nice laptop and I think this would cut Powerbook sales.

Laptops are free advertising for apple, That is why they have a glowing apple logo on the back of the screen, when you are walking in the airport or into a coffee shop you can spot the apple users with in seconds.

Letting HP and IBM deal in the heavy metal will open a host of in routes for business who would never think about running a Apple OS on their servers.

Feb 08, 05 - 01:09 pm Comment from: steve m

Here's a thought....

What if sony makes laptops with Cell chips? or desktops with it....It's a powerpc chip at it's heart, maybe they'd want to run the Mac OS? It'd be a big move for apple, and would help sony...who knows.

Feb 08, 05 - 01:10 pm Comment from: NoMacForYou

Can someone tell me exactly what MS copied from Mac OS ?

Feb 08, 05 - 01:12 pm Comment from: Willie G.

Well, thanks for the synopsis MDN. Irritating as hell that i have to pat $10.00 to read the article. I guess I will have to go to Borders and read it off the rack wink

Feb 08, 05 - 01:13 pm Comment from: Willie G.

To NoMacForYou...

The entire GUI for starters.

Feb 08, 05 - 01:15 pm Comment from: Charko

There's something a'brewing betwixt Sony, IBM, and Apple, methinks.

Feb 08, 05 - 01:19 pm Comment from: ndelc

The licensing situation is getting interesting. A year ago I'd have said no way in hell will it happen, but there are a few differences now. This article is the first time I've ever seen so much attention to the fact that, yes, Apple is very much a software company. They've always been considered a hardware company that makes software only to sell the hardware, but that may be changing. Those of us in the know realize that it's always been the software that makes the Mac so great, but along with that is that Apple controls the whole widget, so the experience is better. That's where the problem with licensing comes in - if they don't control everything, they could potentially have many of the problems that Windows deals with, like plug and play not working, weird crashes, etc. Perhaps they will do something more like what they do with HP and they iPod, where Apple manufactures it for HP, but HP supports it. There are some really interesting possibilities here.

Feb 08, 05 - 01:22 pm Comment from: simple1

Apple isn't going to license os X @ least not the consumer market as someone already stated it makes no sense @ all. OS X running on a computer without the apple logo on it?? u guys are crazie! His Steveness shalt not allowth it to cometh to path! lol

magic word result- as a result of the mac mini we have so called journalists making even more stupid predictions about apple death! osX on x86 omG i think i'm having a heart attack!

Feb 08, 05 - 01:32 pm Comment from: NoMacForYou

Willie: Yeah? Which elements of the UI did they RIP? Contextual menu's?
Overlapping windows? Comon, tell me how you would have expressed those features? If I remember correctly the courts decided they were features that werent copywritable. And that gui came from Xerox anyways...So what did they copy?

Feb 08, 05 - 01:47 pm Comment from: Nobody

- That deal where Microsoft bought $150 million of non-voting Apple stock is now worth well over $1 billion.

The article would have been much more credible, had he never mentioned that. The subject of Microsoft buying $150M of non-voting shares always surfaces again and again, but almost everyone forgot that Microsoft had sold all the stock for profit. Microsoft owns nothing of Apple.

From Wikipedia:
Microsoft bought a $150 million non-voting share of company as a result of a court settlement between themselves and Apple. (Microsoft has since sold all Apple stock holdings.)

Feb 08, 05 - 01:48 pm Comment from: I HATE DELL

To the PC World who laughing now.It's good to be the King. Nobody believe me from where I live. Now I can show the article and laugh at them. But I wonder why they drool so much at my powerbook. I guess cause It works and theirs don't. Na It's a Mac. That for kids. Well let me be a kid for life. Thank you Mr. Jobs

Feb 08, 05 - 02:08 pm Comment from: Richard Scalzo

"Think back about just how irrelevant Apple seemed even two years ago. Its share of the personal-computing market had shrunk inexorably throughout the 1990s to a tiny 2%... By the late 1990s, Apple was making even its most loyal users doubt the point of sticking with the company."

I just want to say, for the record, as a graphic designer, earning a living by using an Apple computer as myu main tool: the company NEVER was 'irrelevant' to me two years ago. I NEVER doubted why I was using a Mac or the Mac OS.

Feb 08, 05 - 02:19 pm Comment from: bamboozled

I own stock in Apple! Yay!!

grin

Feb 08, 05 - 02:23 pm Comment from: Jeff

Everyone says Apple is a hardware company. But based on whats happened since Steve Jobs returned, I'd have to say their software has been much better than their hardware. It seems that every model of computer has had problems. OS X, on the other hand, is awesome. iLife is awesome. Final Cut is awesome. Not bad for a hardware company.

Feb 08, 05 - 02:24 pm Comment from: Chad

I was able to get the full article through Factiva in my school's database online, maybe that will work for some others.

Feb 08, 05 - 02:28 pm Comment from: Joe McConnell

The facts are, if there were only apple computers would still cost $5000 each, and if there were only MS we would still be typing c: to start the day. The world of computing is competitive and nearly perfect, now that apple has come off their high horse with the mini.

Feb 08, 05 - 02:43 pm Comment from: iMaki

I think licensing OSX to 3rd parties would be the beginning of the end of Apple making PCs. I've never quite understood why Apple would sell rival PCs to PC Makers it licences its own OS to. I suppose the PCs would have to meet specific standards or something. I would imagine Sony, for example, coming up with a concept PC that would cut dramatically into Mac sales, and then what? If OSX is the prize, what difference does it make to put it into someone else's box (Yes, I remember UMAX)? It would make a big difference to me, but what about the average Joe/Jane? Is Apple evolving into a software-specific company with an eventual split with its electronics division? I hope Apple will always control both the hardware and software, not necessarily exclusively, but in control nonetheless.

Feb 08, 05 - 03:25 pm Comment from: dennis

NoMacForYou wrote: "Yeah? Which elements of the UI did they RIP? Contextual menu's?
Overlapping windows? Comon, tell me how you would have expressed those features? If I remember correctly the courts decided they were features that werent copywritable. And that gui came from Xerox anyways...So what did they copy?"

1) The court did not say those elements were not copywritable.
2) The Xerox gui was very, very, different from MacOS. (One example: icons were mostly used for actions, not documents and apps.)
3) One tiny example: If you were given the task of designing a pointer for a gui, what do you think the chances are that your design would be exactly--pixel for pixel--like the Mac's? Windows 95's was, just reversed black and white (incidentally, a much worse choice for seeing it against a typical white document).

Feb 08, 05 - 03:37 pm Comment from: NoMacForYou

So you're saying that a mouse pointer is what all of the fuss is about? Well shit man..Fast User Switching was copied from XP, so whats the big deal about a friggin mouse pointer..You've got to do better than that...So in that case..Every OS copied the mac pointer right...Linux, AIX, OS/2, Windows...Etc..So how would you have made the pointer...I would have used a middle finger at this point...

Feb 08, 05 - 03:40 pm Comment from: NoMacForYou

You know, Ive also heard that Steve came up with apple and the logo from Xerox aswell...That may be BS though...

Feb 08, 05 - 03:46 pm Comment from: ndelc

NoMacForYou, why are you arguing such a stupid point? Everyone and their mother knows damn good and well that MS ripped Apple off. It's been to court on numerous occasions and found that, under the agreement they signed, they had the RIGHT to do it. MS doesn't even try to deny it, in fact, it's basically seen as a brilliant coup in the business world. You're just trying to rile people up. Isn't it time for your afternoon nap? If not, surely Teletubbies is on. Go play and leave the adults to their mature conversation!

Feb 08, 05 - 03:49 pm Comment from: Manner

What if...

Sony and Apple get together and each make Cell-based PCs that can run Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X... at the same time. I believe that's one of the things that Cell is able to do well. Talk about Trojan Horse for Apple. Businesses and consumers buy these amazing new Cell based machines that can run any OS, with the intention of running Windows as usual (albeit quicker than on Intel) and in there is also Linux and Mac OS X. On that level playing field, imagine which OS would succeed? I can already imagine PCs bogged down with viruses etc switching to Mac OS X with a flip of an imaginary switch and continuing on their way getting their work done... It might be worth it for Apple to have to compete with Sony for this whole new hardware business... it'd not be like they'd be competing with Cell Based Dells if they don't want to. And Sony is a lot like Apple in wanting to make great hardware and not have to be brought down to the lowest common denominator to compete in comodity machines... it could work couldn't it?

Feb 08, 05 - 03:51 pm Comment from: AI_Joe

NoMacForYou, if it was left up to Gate's vision of the future - everybody would still be doing DOS line code. MS incorporated those GUI changes to compete with Apple. If you look at the operating systems from both companies, year to year, Apple has always been one step before, and it sure looked a hell nicer. Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_GUI

I got a "theory".

Feb 08, 05 - 04:35 pm Comment from: Peter

I'd also point out that, in one case, one built on the other.

Fun example: Aliases. Apple had them "first" (yes, Unix people, I know, they were in Unix...) in System 7.0, circa 1991. Apple made one mistake in presentation, though: in the Finder, aliases used italic type for the name. This was the only visual way to tell if something was an alias instead of an original. Unfortunately, not all languages support an italic typeface--namely, Japanese. Thus, Japanese users had no way to visually discover whether something was an alias or not--they had to "Get Info" on the file.

When Microsoft introduced "Shortcuts" in Windows 95--essentially ripping off Aliases (okay, they both stole from Unix)--they added the little arrow badge.

In Mac OS 8, Apple also added the arrow badge to aliases, stealing from Windows.

Frankly, this is the way of the world and the nature of competition. Someone comes up with a good idea, someone else comes along, sees that idea, and improves on it. I'm sure Apple looked at the nature of MP3 players before coming up with the iPod. IBM looked at what everyone else was doing with PCs before they came out with the IBM PC.

This has happened for years in the hardware business and is happening in the software business, too. If you will, Apple comes up with the good idea. Everyone else copies it a few years later. If you want the good idea first, you buy Apple. If you're willing to wait, buy a PC.

Feb 08, 05 - 04:58 pm Comment from: Ed

NoMacForYou

If you have a big problem trying to swallow the GUI story, then let me give you another one; this would be a lot easier to go down.
MS stole the codes of Quicktime to build their very own media player for Windows 3.1
When Apple approached them, they flat out denied it, so Apple brought them to court. In the court, Apple engineers took apart the codes of the windows media player (called video for windows I think) and showed that almost everything was copied right out of the quicktime player's codes.

Here's some links for you to read if you're that interested.

http://www.pa.msu.edu/~hamlin/facts/1stltr.html
follow it up with
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,16141,00.html
and maybe this one too
http://www.aldridge.com/redirect_newslink22

Feb 08, 05 - 05:03 pm Comment from: Mac the Spoon

The beautiful irony of who copied who, is you can't copy SECURITY. It has to be coded and built-in the hard way. MS has fallen totally on its face in this regard.

From the article:
"By the late 1990s, Apple was making even its most loyal users doubt the point of sticking with the company. Its operating system was an unstable patchwork...Apple knew it needed help."

Sounds like MS of today, no?

Feb 08, 05 - 05:14 pm Comment from: NoMacForYou

Thanks for the links Ed. I wasnt aware of that little tid bit of info..I dont really have a hard time swallowing the GUI thing...The mouse pointer thing just seems like nit picking..Like a car with a steering wheel...(How else would you do it? a Joystick? LOL)..So does that apply aswell to WMP? I wouldnt blame MS for ripping off quicktime..Its still superior to anything i've seen from redmond..But as Peter so elequently put it...

"Frankly, this is the way of the world and the nature of competition. Someone comes up with a good idea, someone else comes along, sees that idea, and improves on it. I'm sure Apple looked at the nature of MP3 players before coming up with the iPod. IBM looked at what everyone else was doing with PCs before they came out with the IBM PC."

Feb 08, 05 - 05:19 pm Comment from: Mac & PC Guy

>Joe McConnell wrote: The facts are, if there were only apple computers would still cost $5000 each, and if there were only MS we would still be typing c: to start the day.


What crystal ball did you pull this fact from? Did you shake a little extra this time?

Feb 08, 05 - 05:22 pm Comment from: BSOD

"..Like a car with a steering wheel...(How else would you do it? a Joystick? LOL)..." - NoMacForYou

Yes. Actually, very early versions of the automobile did not use a steering wheel. They used steering levers. In fact, as an early measure against auto theft around the turn of the century (1900), the Leach Motor Carriage actually had a removable steering lever.

And as to your last assertion, theft is not the way of the world. It's only the way of the unscrupulous.

Feb 08, 05 - 05:28 pm Comment from: NoMacForYou

I like this one
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,16058-2,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1

BSOD
"And as to your last assertion, theft is not the way of the world. It's only the way of the unscrupulous." -

I agree..Peter wrote that - not me...

Feb 08, 05 - 05:35 pm Comment from: Mac & PC Guy

>Ndel wrote: Those of us in the know realize that it's always been the software that makes the Mac so great...

I've used the Mac for years and I can only agree with this statement if you started out with "Since OSX". The OSX/G5 homerun made the Mac a viable platform for many.

Feb 08, 05 - 05:41 pm Comment from: loki

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life......

Feb 08, 05 - 06:05 pm Comment from: Matt

For all of you bitching about subscriptions go to http://bugmenot.com

Feb 08, 05 - 06:19 pm Comment from: dennis

NoMacForYou wrote: "The mouse pointer thing just seems like nit picking..Like a car with a steering wheel...(How else would you do it? a Joystick? LOL)"

The point is that: yes, anyone should be able to design a pointer. Except, apparently, Microsoft, because they couldn't even do that one little thing on their own. I didn't say it was the most egregious ripoff. It's just that it is one thing that you can point to that couldn't possibly be just a case of parallel development. It's pixel-for-pixel!

Also, not being able to come up with an original idea yourself is not an excuse for ripping off someone else's original idea.

Feb 08, 05 - 06:38 pm Comment from: ndelc

Mac & PC Guy, I couldn't disagree more. The operating system has always been what makes the Mac so great, regardless of which version it was. Obviously comparing System 6 to OS X is laughable, but every version of the Mac OS was brilliant in it's time. Things only started get tired in OS 9 (IMHO) but I think that had a lot to do with making the transition to X as painless as possible.

Feb 08, 05 - 06:45 pm Comment from: Hazard's Dad

I can see an advantage of Apple licensing OS X to manufacturers of PowerPC builders, ike they did with the clone makers, but not to x86 makers.

x86 is a broken and fragmented platform with too many standards problems. IBM may now be having trouble getting enough G5 chips out, but Apple wins on quality of design.

Making a x86 Mac will confuse the price/quality issue even more. People will be confounded by the choice of PowerPC or x86 and thinking they are getting more for the money with x86 they will lose and wonder why they got a "Mac".

Apple needs to stick with IBM and PowerPC. It would be nice to see a Power4 or Power5 server/workstation running OS X, but not x86.

Open up the platform. Apple can compete very well on price and design. More open manufacturing will encourage more third-party hardware developers (video esp) to bring more products to the Mac. We'll see more user-configurable options too.

Apple should allow users to configure their systems more. When they do that they will see an explosion of demand from computer enthusiasts. Home PC tinkers are dying for a Mac they can mod. Truely mod, not just replace a hard drive and up the RAM.

Just look at the mini mods. People love it for what you can do. Small, quiet and cool. Rock solid OS. The mini is going where Jobs probably never expected. Open it up and see where it goes!

Open it up Apple! But not to Wintel.

Feb 08, 05 - 06:53 pm Comment from: Hazard's Dad

Microsoft should port Windows to Pow .. oh never mind. People will figure it out soon enough.

Feb 08, 05 - 07:09 pm Comment from: KennyLucius

bugmenot doesn't work for this one--it's a paid subscription service.

Feb 08, 05 - 08:16 pm Comment from: pete

Bugmenot worked for me. Haven't gotten to read it thoroughly though.

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