MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

Nov 16, 09 - 12:30 pm Comment from: Gregg Thurman

Choice isn't what its cracked up to be if it results in Windows, or Dell Service, etc.

Apple's product quality is a direct result of its control over the production and service support consumers depend on.

The ONLY ones that will cry about this are uber geeks that must tinker with everything they buy, and those that truly can't afford a Mac. There are far more of the former than there are of the latter.

Some people just don't get it. It really is amazing...

"But then again, isn't there something instinctively wrong about accepting a system or product, regardless of its quality, that reduces consumer choice?"

Only if deep down inside, you're really a cheap-ass.

"Apple's cheapest desktop model that includes a monitor, keyboard, and CPU is the 21.5-inch iMac for $1200. Psystar's base desktop bundle with OS X starts at $600, the same cost as Apple's Mac Mini, which doesn't come with either a keyboard or monitor."

Actually, it is even cheaper to break into some retail outlet and steal a Mac.
This is even better than a Psystar box, and cheaper!
And it relies on the same principle as Psystar does. stealing.

Nov 16, 09 - 12:38 pm Comment from: Big Al

MDN take,

"You want the Pontiac of personal computers and any old Windows PC box assembler will do."

Massive insult to GM in general and Pontiacs in particular.

I would have compared a cheap PC box with Windows to a Yugo myself.

Nov 16, 09 - 12:39 pm Comment from: HMCIV

Restrictions on Choice through history:

Ford Model T: Any color you like so long as it's black.

Mac OS X: Any hardware you like so long as it's Apple.

Dell/HP: Any OS you like so long as it's Windows.

Coke Machine: Any soda you like so long as it's Pepsi free.

Republicans: Any congressional bill you like so long as it's Pelosi free.

Stalin: Any gulag you like so long as it's Siberia.

Archduke Franz Ferdinand: Any country you like so long as it's <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia#World_War_I">. (What? Too soon?)

Nov 16, 09 - 12:42 pm Comment from: Mac Daddy

"...and for the foreseeable future only Cupertino will decide which hardware its operating system will run on."

How f-ing stupid. Who else should decide that? PC World?

That's like complaining about Burger King having an exclusive on Whopper sales. Just stupid.

Nov 16, 09 - 12:45 pm Comment from: chaz

Wow, hard to believe someone can print this dribble!!

If you work really and design a great product an some moron finds it "instinctively wrong" to pay your price then you should have to give your hard earned product to some other hack to sell.

On what planet does that make sense??

Ian, get your head out of your ass when you write an article about the Mac.

"Consumer choice" code words, for bash Apple, that MS has injected into the braindead.

I wonder what these same braindead think when they are offered over 100k apps in the AppStore, and compare that with the few thousand in the WinMo/Zune Marketplace? Where's all the consumer choice?

This wasn't about Psystar - it was about 3rd parties being able to take and use the Mac OS. If Psystar could do it, so could dell and HP and Acer and the whole thing falls apart because there would be no advantage for Apple to put R and D into an OS for the benefit of others. They don't want to be Microsoft. I don't want them to be Microsoft.
Consumers win because Apple makes a great OS and great products. As soon as they become Microsoft, everything turns to crap. Why does everyone think that good things should be cheap? 20 shares of Apple stock bought last year would have paid for a new computer for you. Apple Computers are Free for those who invest in Apple. It pays to invest in quality.

Apple is in a great recovery position and I think is great. Even going up so hight that it deserve all its credits. Apple now has a ton of cash and experience to make sure everything goes really smooth. I've been a Mac user for more than a decade and I managed to survive the worst years with enough satisfaction. Even so I believe Apple should stay very focused on its product lines (as it surely does). But I did not have a very good experience with Snow Leopard and I am still expecting the true 64 bit system from top to bottom. The 64 bit experience is coming, but how about the Snow Leopard failures?. It costed me a hole day reinstalling everything the way I needed with migration assistant and manual installation. And before that the upgrade was not what I had in mind, besides recovering some disk space and some other nice features. I know the first incarnation of every mayor upgrade comes with failures. But, still Snow Leopard was announced by Apple as a Performance upgrade.

I don't pay any attention at all to marketing: Apple or every other company. I do my research and that is how I pick up the solutions I think are the best for my needs. And is ok with me if Apple or any other company creates a big fancy campaign as long as they bring the quality we are expecting.

So Apple is right to defend its products and I never believed Psystar was any serious in its intentions and because we are sold to the idea of a closed system in control from the same company.

Ok Apple. But now You have a lot of resources and well deserved recognition and success. So I expect the highest quality experience from the only product from you I really care: My Mac.

Here is what I need:
I want more graphic card options and faster to marked results.
I think we should have better SSD options. All of them.
Real 64 bit from top to bottom as soon as possible including 3rd party software.
I don't care at all about cosmetic features in the OS even as a graphic artist and as a user I appreciate all the effort. I want stability, stability, stability... A water proof system that allows me to grow with comfort and reability. That is how I see the computer business today and into the future. And I hope Apple is the right company to bring me that experience for years to come.

Nov 16, 09 - 01:25 pm Comment from: hagar57

If $999 is too much, why not get last year's used MacBook for $600? It's as good and better as/than a $600 laptop using Celeron technology, and it weighs half of what our Windows brethren (am I being social or what?) have to schlepp around, with twice the battery life.
On a sad note, our G4 iBook passed away today from a broken hard drive. At six years of age, it was far too young (snif!). Survivors include my iMacSEHD (*1991), PB165 (*1994), PB1400 (*1997), and PBG3/266 (*1998).

The HARDWARE is part of the Mac experience, and should STAY that way.
Putting their OS on a cheap hardware DELL is asking for trouble,
just as Google's Android is being put on super-multiple hardware devices that are going to get cheaper and cheaper in quality.
Google's going to get some smartphone marketshare, but not without quality problems from the hardware. They simply can't control it, so I hope they get their money shortterm.

Can someone check the costitution for me? Where does it say that every person has a rite to a Mac (the closest I can see it the pursuit of happiness).

@hager
our Mac family feels your loss :(
one of our family members (early 2006 iMac) has been in ICU for a little over a week, with a bad HD, but luckly a compatible 500GB HD as been located and we expect to pick up our beloved iMac mañana

You can't get a similarly spec'd Windows PC for 2/3 the price of a Mac laptop. There aren't any made from billet aluminum, they don't have the same hardware features, or if they do have the same ports, etc., they cost as much or more in a plastic case.

You can't compare different spec'd products and declare one superior, better, or a better value when the cheaper one is missing features included on the more expensive one.

Nov 16, 09 - 01:46 pm Comment from: Twenty Benson

MDN's responses are illogical - but I'm glad the wider MSM is picking up on the points I have raised.

Customers bought into the Apple Mac experience and committed substantial amounts of their time and money in doing so. So 'Windows' (and whatever product that OS is connected with) is not an option.

The experience many people were attracted to and so committed to once included a broad Apple product range - offering choice and the ability of most users to broadly compile kit which closely met their needs.

Apple has now severely contracted its product range KNOWING that its installed OS customer base is contractually tied to it and that many of those customers have made huge financial commitments to the OS and have so become dependent upon it.

Apple now acts to close down any free-market attempt by other companies to meet customers needs by supplying the hardware options that Apple once used to sell (and through doing so gained customer commitment to its OS).

Apple's court action against Psystar may appear to be victory against a small start-up company - but make no mistake... it is really a victory against the customer - ripping away from the market any broadened alternative (for which there is a very real demand and very real holes to be filled) and further forcing the customer to buy exclusively from Apple's own tiny product range of shiney 'Pretty-Boy-Johnny' boxes.

Meanwhile, the customers whose needs are no longer met by the company are ignored - Apple knowing the customer is 'locked in'.

Why do people think they are entitled to everything the world has to offer? If you don't have the money or can't justify spending the money for a Mac, then you don't get one! It's as simple as that! Apple doesn't owe you anything and certainly shouldn't make a sub-par product just to cater you.

Please stop comparing Pontiacs to PCs. Really there were some shining examples recently. Perhaps equate PCs to something less loved and more known for breaking down. How about a Trabant?

With Apple, you can compute any way you want...as long as it's exactly how Stevie Jobs wants you to do it...think different and all that crap.

And they say Windows/Linux people are sheep...

Twenty Benson -
What the hell are you talking about? Apple has NEVER sold cheap computers. Their target market has always been the same. And Psystar was not a "free-market attempt" to offer "hardware options" Apple once offered. It was an ILLEGAL attempt to profit from Apple's biggest asset - Mac OS X. Idiot.

Nov 16, 09 - 02:06 pm Comment from: Wade Smith

"Please stop comparing Pontiacs to PCs. Really there were some shining examples recently. Perhaps equate PCs to something less loved and more known for breaking down. How about a Trabant?"

I concur. While there might be some nice comparisons of GM to Micro$oft, not even Chevrolet is served well by comparison to the tepid box assemblers. Trabant is a good match. So is the Cimarron.

Nov 16, 09 - 02:08 pm Comment from: January 24, 1984

My 12" PowerBook is still going strong despite being soaked by an overturned beer years ago.

Built to last.

Nov 16, 09 - 02:14 pm Comment from: wafflejuice

One of the guys from the Angry Mac Bastards podcast rips a similar article with the same slant to shreds in a spot-on blog post:
http://www.theangrydrunk.com/2009/11/16/ride-of-the-entitletards/

Nov 16, 09 - 02:19 pm Comment from: Twenty Benson

Tony -
Who mentioned 'cheap'? I didn't (except when pointing out how cheap the remarkable 'netbooks' are to someone who was thinking of getting one).

I would gladly still pay the free-market rate for the broad range of products Apple once used to offer its customers and now refuses to.

I think it's 'cheap' - as in a 'cheap trick' - that Apple locked in a customer-base using such a product range and then withdraws it and stops those customers using alternative suppliers to meet their needs.

You can call me an 'idiot' for championing the free-market in this way - but at least I'm not suffering from Stockholm Syndrome

i love the comments like "you can do what you want, if Jobs thinks you should".

i can write papers, make slideshow presentations, spreadsheets, databases. I can email, surf the web, video chat with my cousins overseas, I can edit my photos, edit movies, write music. I even just kicked my brother's high score in World of Warcraft.

So what is Jobs telling me that I can't do. I can't burn a blue-ray. bull. nothing is blocking me from using an external drive and my copy of Toast. Jobs and boys didn't block me from it. I can't buy a movie on itunes and burn it. well that's not Jobs, that's the studios saying no. and so on.

and I could get the same hardware for a third the price if I went PC. but I've never met a PC that lasted 8 years. Have met several Macs. And I like that I have a place to go where the people aren't talking out of their butts cause they don't want to admit they don't know and figure you are stupid and won't figure out they are making stuff up. So I'll pay that "Apple Tax" gladly.

And unlike some of you, I don't demand that Apple does things my way or it's crap.

Ok, im gonna be rude. What about this comparison: I man comes to you and says: "Hey, you don't have any exclusive rights on your wife! Either you license her to me or i take her against your will and use her with my own HARD-ware...

Why is that people have NO PROBLEM buying a Wii, Xbox 360 or PS3 and games that only work on those systems, but when it comes to computers somehow Apple is doing something wrong? I don't get it.

Nov 16, 09 - 02:53 pm Comment from: NCIceman

This article is just debate bait. Of course consumer lose some option, but then again running OS/X on non-approved apple hardware would not be the same anyway, and it would not be fair to apple for people to report issues with the operating system when not running on apple hardware. So ultimately I get what I pay for. Now, if some people can't afford a mac, well, I'm sorry, but I can't afford a Mercedes either, that does not mean I am entitled to force mercedes to sell components to others, or at prices everyone can afford.

Call me when you're ready to compromise.

Nov 16, 09 - 03:02 pm Comment from: MidWest Mac

You know, it's not Apple's fault that no other company makes a hardware/software combo that people want anymore except Apple.

Somewhere along the way, commodity pricing on Windows + ______ machines took over in terms of marketshare. If it had worked out perfectly, there would be no Apple today.

Instead, viruses and instability have made certain that a product like the Mac still has its place. Not only that, it's become a product millions now hace (and millions more crave). Millions more are waking up and realizing they absolutely can afford it — especially when savings is figured over the life of the machine.

Apple should never be forced to license OS X. It's un-American. If Apple chooses to do so, different story.

Why are we still event talking about this?

Mac's OS and hardware are a single Unit, just like the Holy Trinity is a single God. What's not to understand? Ask your priest, minister or genius.

Nov 16, 09 - 03:04 pm Comment from: Predrag

Twenty Benson,

How did Apple lock anyone in? Last time Apple sold an inexpensive desktop (I'm assuming that's what you're complaining about) was over ten years ago. Those desktops were sold with a dead-end OS 9. Customers who bought into those HAD to choose a migration path from there: OSX or Windows. There was no lock-in, except to a dying platform with support ending very soon.

Markets are as free as you can possibly get. You can ALWAYS switch to Windows.

Stockholm Syndrome is when you're held captive against your will and develop feelings and excuses for your captors, regardless of the hardship you're put through. It is impossible to own a genuine Mac and suffer from Stockholm Syndrome; you'd first suffer abuse through that experience...

TO "Jeff"
Re: the constitution and your rights.

I'll check my Constitution app on my iPhone.. Hmmm, let's see. Hey guess what, your rights are not listed in the constitution! Yeah, how about that, it just has some drivel about how you have lots and lots of rights and then mentions a few of them in particular. Kind of sounds like you have all the rights that exist. Oh.. and look, additionally, it says congress should pass no laws abridging any of your rights. Wow. What a cool document.

I guess if you wanted to live in a democracy where the government could tell you what rights you can and can't have, you should probably move to France.

Nov 16, 09 - 03:24 pm Comment from: Twenty Benson

Predrag - it's best is you read my posts before trying to respond to them.

As for the Stockholm Syndrome... not all captives are taken at gun-point - ever heard of the honey-trap?

Consumers win! Why? Because Psystar's junk wouldn't last, they wouldn't service them, there pieced together like some kit from an electronics hobby store. Name a certified Psystar service center?
That's right, there isn't any. No control over the junky hardware so OSX as good as it is wouldn't run properly and if Apple updates firmware or rom code, your Psystar turns into a giant door stop! Macs are competively priced with what comes right out of the box which by the way includes a whole suite of software that no Windows maker can provide so you can start using your Mac right away. Good riddens to all the clone makers and there put together kit crap!

Doesn't matter. Just finished putting together a kick*ss MacPro equivalent for only $1200 dollars. Used EFI-X boot loader. It screams.....

"And that's really the crux of the whole debate. A lot of people may want to own a Mac, but Apple's high prices make it hard to justify spending $1000 on a 13-inch laptop, when you can buy a similar Windows machine for two-thirds that price--albeit with downgraded specs."
This really makes me laugh! $1000 Mac or for two-thirds that price a downgraded PC. Why would you want to do that? So you can't run the apps that you want to? So you can't run the games that you want to? That kind of thinking will only lead you to spending more money on another PC in less than 6 months when you could of just bought the Mac that could do it all already.
Stupid!!!

@jecastej

I upgraded to SL yesterday on my MBP (early 2009) and my only Intel Mac. First I cloned the HD with CCC to a loose Firewire disk. It took about an hour and I walked the dog in the mean time. Returning home I wiped the HD and did a clean install. Then it was only to use the Migration Assistant and move all programs (quite a few) and documents etc. That took another hour while I had supper. Then it was just to update the system (another 500MB+) and I was up and running. Now it works perfectly! All together I used about 3 hours, not a big deal.

This is why I've been sticking to original Macs since 1990. Now it's going to be interesting to see what happens to German Pear and Russian Mac, the two other parasites.

Nov 16, 09 - 04:41 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@twenty

If money were no object, what would you buy?

@naysayers- about your 8 year old PC comment vs older Macs, I concur. I repair PCs and Macs for a living, and much of my work involves getting older hardware to "work again". Much of the time, I have to tell my clients that it's much more economical to just drop a few hundred bucks on a new machine than to pay me for time and labor to patch up an old machine that'll most likely croak again. Any Mac repairs I have to make are usually minor OS or hardware issues, such as bad memory or hard drives, and many of those Macs are 6-10 years old (old iBooks, PB G3s, etc) running Tiger.

I'm posting this on my 11 year old PB G3 "Wallstreet" running OS 9.2.2, via the Classilla browser, from a Denny's with free wireless...

@Ian Paul
"But then again, isn't there something instinctively wrong about accepting a system or product, regardless of its quality, that reduces consumer choice?""

Apple reduces consumer choice? I see. How much did Microsoft pay you to regurgitate that meme, Ian? I have to ask that question because I refuse to believe that you're genuinely stupid enough to think that a company which provides one of the precious few alternative choices to Windows actually reduces consumer choice.

For if I were to believe that, then I must also believe that you think McDonalds reduces consumer choice by refusing to let Burger King sell Big Macs. And if I were forced to contemplate that anyone could actually be that much of an idiot, I think my head would explode.


@Twenty Benson
"Meanwhile, the customers whose needs are no longer met by the company are ignored - Apple knowing the customer is 'locked in'."

Oh! Another one! And how much did Microsoft pay you, you cute little dickens? As much as Ian?

Or, at the risk of my untimely demise, are you actually stupid enough to think that Apple is creating customer lock-in because they aren't letting other companies kneecap them again by selling Mac clones, again?

In that case, just like Ian Paul if he is indeed enough of an earthsattering moron to believe what he's saying, you must also be against McDonalds and their customer lock-in of refusing to let other restaurants sell Big Macs and McMuffins.

I pray that you are simply being paid to post that insane anti-logic. Tell me you are.

MW: choice. OMG, like... Scary.

As usual, your trolling is disingenuous. You can easily install any OS on a Mac--I've got VMs running Linux and Windows, all going at once, on a laptop with 4GB of RAM, and no noticeable slow-down for day-to-day tasks. _That_ is choice. Good hardware, good OS, plus any experimental alternative I might cast a glance at--all of which reinforce to me that Mac OSX is definitely by far the best available.

So--troll away, but try to do it a bit less transparently.

Now Apple have won, can someone tell me if they are going to offer.
Longer warranties without charging for it, buy an intel processor from ant it company apart from Apple and you get 3 years warranty.
Whatever about on board raid in the mac pro included.
What about 4 core processors the price difference veteran 2 & 4 is only around $100 where is iCore 7 processors.
Were are the hot swappable removable hd's.
Where are the choices in graphic's cards.

Yes one thing I have learnt is that Apple are control freaks just ask the poor resellers out there. What is scary is that it's like Animal Farm there are Animals that are privilidged to have a Mac and then there animals that are more priviliged. Apple Corp is like the ultimate communist machine, with lost of sheep that will die for thier mac. It's scary just reading the prejudice. Apple would be buried 10 foot under if it was not for Resellers, Mac clones in the 90's, Next and that fact they stole Xerox's GUI, and used a free open computing unix os and of course having a shreud business leader like Jobs. Mac os is like ford developing a fuel that is better than anyone elses then saying they want to limit it to thier cars only. I'm all for iMacs, MacBooks and mini's but the above inconsistencies show we have some way to go to match enterprise solutions. Good luck convincing Apple as to what you want in the future.

Nov 16, 09 - 06:44 pm Comment from: Twenty Benson

@G4Dualie
"If money were no object, what would you buy?"

I'd buy Apple! Take Pretty-Boy Johnny down a peg or two, sack Monkey-Boy Al Gore and give customers back a CHOICE of hardware.

Easy.

Nov 16, 09 - 07:25 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@twenty

Nice try, but thanks for playing anyway.

Next?

Nov 16, 09 - 07:56 pm Comment from: je

@Northern cross

To be honest my experience with Snow Leopard hasn't been very good from the beginning. It was not only the failure in the upgrade to X.6.2. A lot of crashes and bugs occurred with very important 3rd party software and Apple software (Safari, Maya and Photoshop). And they were fixed with SL X.6.2 because I upgraded a Mac Book and noticed that. This proves that SL wasn't ready when it was launched and that is Apple responsibility. Remember at the time Apple was fighting a battle to win the marked over Windows 7. So, I blame Apple for this: Marketing over reability. What did Steve Jobs criticized related to Microsoft marketing man making the company's big decisions over the technical guys?. With SL the marketing was first. I hope Apple won fail to us in the future with aggressive marketing campaigns and relative poor deliveries. I prefer to wait a bit longer just when the software and hardware are ready. Or please, at least advice me not to upgrade if I depend on certain applications.

Don't think that I don't love my Macs and my iPod. I do, but I am not blind.

The point here is if we the users won anything with Psystar ruling. I agree with Apple closed system philosophy, politics and practices. But not to the point where I am missing important options and stability. What happens if in the future some other company comes with a better system?. Would you be loyal to Apple?. It does not makes sense. So I think it is better if we the users keep some pressure on the Apple side.

Nov 16, 09 - 09:27 pm Comment from: CitizenX

"There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey.

It is unwise to pay too much, but it is also unwise to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money, that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything because the thing you bought is incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot... It can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better."

- John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

Nov 17, 09 - 02:13 am Comment from: ken1w

Apple has demonstrated many times that reducing customer choice leads to higher satisfaction and sales. This is because for typical customers, having simple and obvious options is better than having dozens of confusing and similar choices. The Windows PC market is a sea of confusing and similar choices, distinguished mostly by the color of the cheap plastic panels.

Nov 17, 09 - 03:45 am Comment from: drmac

Paul says, "And that's really the crux of the whole debate. A lot of people may want to own a Mac, but Apple's high prices make it hard to justify spending $1000 on a 13-inch laptop, when you can buy a similar Windows machine for two-thirds that price--albeit with downgraded specs."

it is nothing short of idiocy that people compare Mac and Windows computers based on specs. That's all hardware. It's the software stupid!

Ironically from a hardware perspective comparing Macs to Windows is like comparing Mercedes to Yugos.

The author says it's hard to justify spending x when you can get a "similar" (it's Windows stupid, it's not similar except to the ignorant) for two thirds the price. Let's continue to apply that logic.

It's hard to justify spending $250,000 for a house when if I hang out by an appliance store long enough I can come up with a similar albeit downgraded refrigerator box.

It's crazy to spend $20 on a meal when for a quarter of the price I can eat my dog's food.

How can I justify spending $40 on jeans when this glad trash bag does the job and it's even waterproof!

Hey Paul, it's not that "apple's high prices" make it hard. It's being ignorant and cheap.

How can you say, " But then again, isn't there something instinctively wrong about accepting a system or product, regardless of its quality, that reduces consumer choice?"

When you made your last car purchase did you have any third party choices as to which transmission or engine you wanted? Or did that mean controlling car company limit your choices by only offering you a model that included all of their stuff.

From what orifice did you pull your logic? But really you do have a choice. You can choose to wear the trash bag, you can eat the dog food, and you can get a piece of crap windows computer. The only limits are your own lack of ignorance.