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And as I said yesterday, as soon as the Pre loses it's ability to sync to iTunes, and the users call Palm for tech support, Palm management will point the finger at Apple, claiming that Apple "broke" iTunes.

May 29, 09 - 12:41 pm Comment from: REALTORben

Palm is flirting with Disaster, although it would be nice if apple opened up iTunes with some sort of API and restrictions so that other device don't corrupt your itunes library. Then people couldn't complain apple was monopolizing music with its industry controlling iTunes music store that only works on an industry controlling iPod. (even though they are the best product combination that exists anywhere and ever)

May 29, 09 - 12:49 pm Comment from: Jubei

Apple makes very little profit with iTunes. iTunes drive their hardware sales, which Apple relies on for revenue. Which funds their R&D;. Palm is a thief, a hack and has no class violating iTunes/Apple IP to steal away hardware sales.

I wonder if Palm will start getting funding from the same folks putting money into companies like Psystar. With these attempts to undermine Apple's business model, it's not much of a stretch to say that Palm are trying to make the Pre into an "iPhone clone".

In fact, who was it that recently bailed out Palm? Might want to start investigating them, see if they're dabbling in Mac clone companies on the side, too.

May 29, 09 - 12:57 pm Comment from: breeze

Apple is destroying manybusiness models that stagnantly ruled for years... I guess everyone is just throwing whatever they can at Apple as a pathetic resistance to change....

@Jubei

That old tired argument that Apple makes very little profit with iTunes is just that - old and tired. MDN likes to reference (flog) that dead horse occasionally too but the fact is times have changed and what was once a vehicle for iPod sales has turned into its own sales entity. Particularly now that the non-DRM'd tracks will play on just about anything worth owning. How many times must we look at music sales figures that illustrate how iTunes is mopping the floor double-time with every other competitor out there before that years-old argument is put to bed?? As for your comments regarding the Pre... as many have already said on this site and others, as early as iTunes 8.1.2...

So, am I missing something here? I thought you could use pretty much any MP3 player with iTunes.

Aside from protected AAC files from the ITMS, I would expect non protected ones to be fine. (I don't have a 3rd party player or I would have tried for myself)


From the iTunes help.

Connecting an iPod, Motorola phone featuring iTunes, or another music player

You can connect any iPod, a Motorola phone featuring iTunes, or a third-party digital music player to your computer and then sync it with songs from your iTunes library.

For all other devices, connect the device to your computer using the cable that came with the device.

iTunes works with several music players, but songs purchased on the iTunes Store play only on iPod and iTunes-enabled mobile phones.

@XLM

Yep, how about that.

Players compatible with itunes:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172?viewlocale=en_US

huh.

May 29, 09 - 01:26 pm Comment from: LordRobin

@XLM
Exactly! I fail to see what the issue is here. Is there any sign at all that Apple gives a sh*t that the Pre can sync up? I remember that people used to use Rio players with iTunes. I mean, it's not like iTunes integration is somehow going to make people want a Pre instead of an iPhone.

------RM

May 29, 09 - 01:52 pm Comment from: LLIB SETAG

BRICK THE PALM Apple!
Update iTunes so that Palm Pre will not work with iTunes on PC / Mac.

May 29, 09 - 01:54 pm Comment from: Gordon Horne

If Palm is emulating Apple code, Apple can break it. If Palm copied actual Apple code, Apple can seek an injunction to stop sales until the Pre is redesigned.

It's much safer for Palm to go the emulation route. But it's safer still for them to just be compatible with iTunes like so many other players and not get caught up in a game of sync-or-not with Apple.

May 29, 09 - 02:09 pm Comment from: macslut

I'm sick of all of the "Seamless syncing with iTunes" reporting. The Pre won't be able to sync tv shows, movies, older iTunes music, and most importantly apps from iTunes.

All it does, is what many 3rd party devices have been able to do...sync non DRM music. Nokia does this, Blackberry does this, a whole host of MP3 players do this. Apple bundles a whole list of devices plugins by default. 3rd parties can install their own device plugins by following Apple's own SDK that allows for this.

@mcslut

You're making stuff up, the Pre has full seamless media sync, meaning it can sync, Photos, Movies, Videos and Music. The only limitation is that it can't handle older DRM-laced files. If you were paying attention, you would have learned the Pre does not use 3rd party coding. iTunes treats the Pre as if it's an iPod or iPhone.

May 29, 09 - 02:37 pm Comment from: Gordon Horne

@oneAwake,

Most movies and videos still have DRM.

May 29, 09 - 02:47 pm Comment from: Gordon Horne

Also@oneAwake,

If the Pre does not use 3rd party coding, that presumably means it uses Apple code. That's illegal. You can write code that has the same effect as the original—make the Pre look like an iPod to iTunes in this case—but you can't use the original code unless it is open source. If Palm doesn't want to be served a stop trade injunction on the Pre, they better be using 3rd party coding.

The 1st party is Apple. The 2nd party is the customer using Apple software. The 3rd party is any developer adding on to Apple software.

May 29, 09 - 02:48 pm Comment from: Demon

With no more Music DRM in the iTunes store Apple might just toss the iTunes Music Store doors open to everyone with an open device spec.. Suck in all the PMP and smart phone manufactures to use iTunes for music management and watch the customers start to switch to iPods and iPhones so, that they can also put Movies, TV shows and Apps on their device from the iTunes store too. It would be a brilliant and twisted move. Not only that but all the smaller on-line music retailers (Napster, Zune Market Place, Wal-mart, Tesco, etc.) would be sucked right down the drain. Apple would then have the Record Labels right where they want them.

@Gordon Horne

I understand that, however, there are software for a PC where you can "get around DRM", and I was pointing out that "macslut" was incorrect about the Pre having to use 3rd party coding like a Blackberry and other 3 party devices and only having the ability to sync music.

May 29, 09 - 02:53 pm Comment from: Demon

Not to mention the drain of customer's for all the other device makers.

Brilliant and twisted but I think it's now time for Apple to drop the other shoe for a bigger market share.

@Gordon Horne

Heres what's going on here, the Pre may be using a code similar (not the same) to the code found in the iPod or iPhone, which makes iTunes think it's an iPod or iPhone. We do not know, on the other hand, Apple could have simply given a license to Palm, Apple has done it in the past.

Did someone just smile in Apple's Legal Department?

May 29, 09 - 03:29 pm Comment from: Gordon Horne

@oneAwake,

If Palm is using code similar (not the same) to the code found in the iPod or iPhone, that is 3rd party code. That's legal. But Apple has no ethical obligation to support that code in any future updates of iTunes. They do have an ethical obligation to support 3rd parties using code they released to aid compatibility with iTunes, even if just to say "this is the new way of doing it."

@onAsleep: Wake up man. Apple would not have given a license to Palm. The Pre will be able to sync NON-DRM music only. Anything else violates Apple's as well as the Music/TV/Movie studios legal rights. Apple will be legally required to alter their code within a certain (30 day?) period to prevent further syncing.

For Palm to sync to the iTunes store and play any DRM content is a flagrant criminal action and as such, Palm would open themselves to a lawsuit they cannot win.

Simply expect the Palm to try and showboat the Pre in hopes that Dell will purchase them. Really, at this stage, that is their only life line and will slow down Dell's descent.

The Pre will likely be able to sync movies, TV shows, etc., but NOT the ones purchased from iTunes. Those have DRM as required by the studios.

However, if you burn a DVD or have the video file imported into iTunes via some other method than purchasing through iTunes, there should be no restriction (from Apple) on syncing it with the Pre.

So what's with the MDN take ? Are you suggesting that DVD Jon is consulting for Palm ?

@Dunce-so Bunnose

Apple has licensed iTunes to other companies in the past, Palm has been one of those companies. Do you have any information to back up your comment, "Apple would not have given a license to Palm"? I don't think so! The Pre will not be able to sync older DRM files, it *CAN* sync Movies, Video and Photos. You have no idea what you're talking about.

@Gordon Horne

Third party code, meaning the Pre does not need any special software to seamlessly sync with iTunes. Everything would happen right at the USB connection, after that the Pre is acting like an iPod or iPhone. Assuming, that is what's going on.

May 29, 09 - 09:27 pm Comment from: macslut

@oneAwake,

"You're making stuff up, the Pre has full seamless media sync, meaning it can sync, Photos, Movies, Videos and Music. The only limitation is that it can't handle older DRM-laced files."

Read what I wrote again. I said that it won't sync tv shows, movies, older iTunes music, and most importantly apps from iTunes...in other words, it won't sync things with DRM. It's not just older movies and tv shows with DRM, it's the current ones being sold on iTunes with DRM...and more importantly, the apps, which wouldn't be compatible anyway. Apple has only removed the DRM on iTunes Plus music files.

My statement is correct, the only content it will sync **from iTunes** is newer (non-DRM) MUSIC, which is something that many other devices such as those from RIM and Nokia have been doing from the beginning.

The reporting here is total BS, it's incredibly misleading to say there's "seamless" syncing when users are going to find a lot of content available from iTunes won't sync at all with the Pre.

HOW Palm achieves this is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it uses a plugin that's the same as others or spoofs an iPod product. The result is the same as DRM is a no-go, and the only content you can buy from iTunes without DRM is iTunes Plus music.

Content, not purchased from iTunes such as ripped CDs, home videos, etc... can be synced to the Palm, but again this still isn't anything new.

Palm's statements come very close to false advertising, and many reporters are eating it up as the thought of Palm "getting over on Apple" is a sensational thought, but...

There's nothing to see here.

@macslut

Your comments are based on YOUR personal opinions and YOUR assumptions not fact, click here and here As you see the second link is from an Apple dedicated site, it appears the writers know how to write an unbiased article. Also, many folks have seen the syncing demonstrated, the only files it can't handle are copyright protected. Why are you being so damn stubborn? The Pre is MAC friendly, a lot of MAC lovers interested in the Pre will love that, if you don't that is your problem.

May 30, 09 - 05:31 am Comment from: macslut

@oneAwake,

"Your comments are based on YOUR personal opinions"

I have not written one opinion here whatsoever about the Palm Pre. You point to Engadget and AppleInsider, but they're copy & pasting from Fortune/CNET. I used to write and produce for CNET. I'm ashamed to say that they blew it big time on their reporting here.

FACT: As I've said all along, the Palm Pre can NOT sync movies, tv show, apps and music bought from iTunes that is not iTunes Plus. This is not "seamless syncing". Seamless syncing would mean you plug in the Pre, it shows up, and everything syncs with the same experience you'd get with an iPhone.

FACT 2: The Palm Pre does NOT offer any new 3rd party syncing compatibility that hasn't existed for years. It doesn't matter if they used the plugin architecture Apple provides in the SDK, or spoof an iPod, the functionality is the same. By implying there's something new here, which there isn't, there's confusion that it's more than just iTunes Plus music from the store that can be synced.

"Also, many folks have seen the syncing demonstrated, the only files it can't handle are copyright protected. "

Right, as I've said all along, movies, tv shows, music videos, apps, bought from iTunes can't be synced. Most music that has already been purchased can't be synced (since the DRM music files to date outnumber the iTunes Plus files purchased to date).

1) How is this considered "seamless" syncing when only some things can be synced?

2) How is this any different from any of the other 3rd party devices that provide this functionality?

"Why are you being so damn stubborn?"

Because I hate seeing bad journalism and even worse, copy & pasting of bad journalism by bloggers.

"The Pre is MAC friendly, a lot of MAC lovers interested in the Pre will love that, if you don't that is your problem."

You mean Mac, not MAC, and what does this have to do with anything? Nothing I have said is intended as a criticism of the Palm Pre itself. If there is criticism here, it's that Palm has hyped the Pre with statements such as "seamless syncing" and reporters ate it up because it's sensational to pit the Pre against the iPhone. But I don't blame Palm for that (everyone, including Apple hypes their products), I blame the poor reporting for contributing to the hype instead of analyzing the statements and reporting on their findings.

Title from AppleInsider:
"Palm Pre syncs with iTunes on a Mac just like an iPhone"

Except for all of the various ways it does not sync like an iPhone that makes it just like a Blackberry or Nokia, or any number of MP3 devices that have done this for years.

May 30, 09 - 02:02 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

macslut,

You're shouting into the wind if you expect reporting, and especially tech reporting to be factual, accurate, and responsible.

May 30, 09 - 03:10 pm Comment from: macslut

twilightmoon,

Maybe, but I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!

The Pre's ability to connect with iTunes is not an infringement of any type. Apple has a tech note on THEIR website that lists a number of non-Apple MP3 players that iTunes will support:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172

Connecting other MP3 players to iTunes actually makes perfect sense for Apple. When music purchased through iTunes was locked by DRM, it could only be put onto iPods for mobile listening. Now that iTunes music is DRM free, Apple has opened their platform up for a huge number of non-iPod users that can now purchase all their music through Apple's terrific platform.

Sure Apple could shut down the Pre's ability to connect and sync music in a future release of iTunes. But why? Why would they cut off that potential revenue stream? Spite? I doubt it.

This is terrible, reactionary reporting. Do a little digging and report a little fact before going the lazy route and just reporting pure speculation.

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