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I'd like to know what AT&T;will charge with an iPhone Plan. How much in internet, etc. That is the burning ? at this point. Will AT&T;charge a premium for a iPhone plan versus other phones?

June 29th cannot get here fast enough.

"Jobs also confirmed that the iPhone is powered by Mac OS X, not a miniaturised version or a completely different operating system, as some had theorised earlier this year," Computerworld reports."

BS, of course the iPhone has a miniaturised version of OS X. I mean, how else could Apple cram an OS into that small form factor.

If you remove the user interface for the desktop and laptop versions of Mac OSX, I would imagine the resulting OS would take up a dramatically less amount of space.

maczealot, that's what SJ explained. They removed the extra stuff (desktops, sounds, etc.) to get the OS size down. I don't think that qualifies as miniaturized, as the core OS didn't change.

Who wasn't aware of that?

How is this news? And a week after the event?

Haven't we been trying to tell people this? I think that folks who are use to MS technologies don't really understand how OS X is structured, and being as it's a modular OS, it can be scaled to these types of devices. It's STILL OS X, even though the UI is different. The underlying technologies are the same. Darwin is the same. Why is this so hard to believe?

-c

"They removed the extra stuff (desktops, sounds, etc.) to get the OS size down. I don't think that qualifies as miniaturized, as the core OS didn't change"

Exactly. If you nibble around an apple and leave the complete core and stem intact, it's still an apple. The core is not suddenly smaller. Brown perhaps, but not smaller.

THE BIGGEST QUESTION IS

Since AT&T;is still upgrading to 3G network quality and we have to use the slow Edge network.

DOES THE CURRENT VERSION OF THE IPHONE SUPPORT THE UP COMING 3G NETWORK SO IT'S A SIMPLE UPGRADE OR WILL EARLY ADOPTERS BE SCREWED?

If Vista is 15 gigs you can bet the essentials of OS X are under 2 gigs.

Copying an original takes much more code remember.

If I take your clothing off, skin you alive and gut you clean.

Are you still you?

Of course not, your a corpse of course.

So is the iPhone OS really Mac OS X?

Of course not, because the iPhone is not a Mac. It's a phone. So the OS should be called iPhone OS X.

Do you really think internally at Apple the iPhone OS is called Mac OS X?

I don't think so. Chop, Chop.

It will simply require a firmware upgrade to go from 2.5G to 3G. AT&T;wanted to go with Apple to utilize and show off its' 3G network. Don't be surprised if it has 3G compatibility out of the gate.

Weird. I just realized I don't want one. No, let me restate. I want one terribly badly, but I just realized that I don't really have any use for it.

Think with me for a moment:

1. I won't use it for an iPod, i.e. at the gym, mowing the lawn (with sound isolating earbuds) because it's too precious. I won't want to scratch it or break it.

2. I won't use the photos that often, just like I don't use them that often now. Photos are just a gimmick on these things.

3. I won't watch video on it, just like I don't watch video on it now. Perhaps if I commuted to work on an hour-long train ride. Then, maybe. Or if I flew on a plane twice a week. But I don't. So I just won't watch movies on it.

4. I won't check email on it. Maybe every once in a while I care so much about an email that I *need* to check it from the car or restaurant, but... actually, nope, I never have to read email that badly. So it's a nice feature. But I'm not going to be using it.

5. Using the Phone. Yeah, I'd really want to use it as a phone. The thing is gorgeous and obviously quite easy to use, but I'm concerned about that special screen. When happens when it's up against my car keys in my bag during a 4-hour bumpy car trip? And what then after 2 years? And even the non-screen side. I freak out when my wife's negligence gets a tiny scratch on the outside cover of my powerbook almost as badly as I would if she or anyone scratched my car. Mac products are so nice that I want to care for them, and getting the whole thing scuffed and torn up makes me actually want to baby them, which means I won't use them as fully or often as I might.

6. Checking the internet. Well, besides the phone, which obviously is a useful function this is really the only non-phone feature I can think of that I might actually care to use from time to time. And even then, it would be when waiting for a few moments before some on-the-road meeting or especially for directions. I don't see myself using the mobile internet from a tiny form factor all that much. What's the purpose? Maybe for a few seconds here or there, but if I'm going through the virtual nytimes in the morning, I'm not going to be reading for 45 minutes on the iPhone, I guarantee...

So there it is. I want one, but I'm 90% sure I won't get one. And if I do, it'll be because it's a piece of art, not because I'll use it all that much.

</confession>

An OS is not a person, Chop Chop.

"If I take your clothing off, skin you alive and gut you clean. Are you still you?"

Your hyperbole went too far. It's more like just removing lots and lots of clothes. It would still be you and it's still OS X. Without getting too metaphysical, you skinned and gutted wouldn't be someone else either.

@San Niklos
I'm have the exact same feelings. I've been on Mac's since 1988 and love the products, but, do I need all features? No, I need a phone. I've got a iPod for music, a MPB for internet and email.

But, for the trolls that say the iPhone is too much money; listen up! Checking Cell Hut unlocked AT&T;compatable cell phones I found the following:
Nokia N73 sale price $459.98 (silver)
Palm 680 " " $439.98
Nokia E61l " " $529.98
Nokia N73 " " $498.98 Black Music
I-Mate Jamin " $599.98
Nokia N95 " " $764.98 MULTIMEDIA GPS PHONE UNLOCKED SILVER

Nuff Said!

Crabapple, Maczealot was making a joke.

"If I take your clothing off, skin you alive and gut you clean. Are you still you?"

My fingerprints would say, yup, it's me. If you slice off my fingers, my dental records would be a giveaway. Go beyond that, and DNA testing could still prove it's me conclusively.

It's just that I wouldn't be very fun at parties anymore (not that I ever was, but blood can really be a buzzkill).

This is the biggest trojan horse ever. Very smart move from Apple. Sell millions of cell phones with the OS X UI and watch as people come by thousands to replicate that experience getting a Mac. Very smart indeed.
Now, give developers a SDK at WWDC and suddenly you transform the iPhone into a platform, but one that replicates the OS X experience.
Those shares are going up to US$ 200 pretty soon...

Ah, but what is it about us that makes us truly individual?

Is a mystery, non?

"Does the current version of the iphone support the up coming 3g network so it's a simple upgrade or will early adopters be screwed?"

They won't be screwed. They'll get the EDGE capability they paid for.

Yeah, that was a given.

@ Descartes

Maybe we're all unfeeling automata, just like the animals you used to torture.

"It's just that I wouldn't be very fun at parties anymore"

Unless you like to party with Norwegian death-matal bands like I do. ;P

I think the point chop Chop was making is

that if you remove enough of something it's not what it was before.

for instance, if your were skinned alive and gutten you would be dead and certainly not "you" anymore. Your life spirit would have departed. your body would just be a empty shell and begin decomposing.

Apple gutten Mac OS X to make the iPhone OS, it's NOT MAC OS X.

The GUI is different totally and it's running on a completely different peice of hardware called a "phone".

The iPhone is not a "poratble Mac" at all.

Apple has changed their name from Apple Computer to Apple. So in essense they are not strickly a computer maker anymore.

Apple has changed processors from PowerPc to commonly used x86 procesors, so even Mac's are not Mac's anymore, they are PC's running Mac OS X.

Change is good, but CHANGE IS CHANGE AND YOU HAVE TO CALL WHAT IT IS WHAT IT IS AND NOT WHAT IT WAS.

iPhone OS X

And I agree with San Niklos, I don't need the iPhone, I want to have one, big difference

1: I got a 10 megapixel 10x zoom camera with enough SD cards to store thousands of pictures in high quality.

iPhone = lousy 2 mega pixel


2: I got a slim Razor that fits in my front pocket and in emergency I can use the internet for directions from Mapquest mobile.

iPhone = too large to fit comfortably and safley in front pants pocket. Screen too small for extended internet usage and way too expensive for fees for constant use.

3: I have a Mac with a large screen for my old eyes and all the abilities of a computer.

iPhone - only half assed implemented features, screen and keyboard too small for constant internet use.

4: iPod with video which holds all my music.

iPhone storage space is too small.


So that leaves the "wow" factor.

Sure I get the iPhone, "wow" all my friends and then it's a common item in a few short months like the iPod.

I spend enough money on the iPhone to buy another computer and hav eto put up with the iPhones limitations and fragilitiy.

God forbid the iPhone breaks or I drop it, lose it or gets stolen.

The cheap Razor is easy to replace and not so fragile.

"Your life spirit would have departed."

Who the hell are you, Sylvia Browne? Life Spirit? For zark's sake people, grow up.

@ Mark A Lot

Thanks for the details, we all just figured out who you are, and I think everyone will remember how we dealt with your points before.

Hope Motorola pays you well for you efforts!!!

-c

If you're wondering at home...
You remember "Worth Waiting for Rev 2"? Yeah...

-c

Have you considered that after June 29, what you've seen on the iPhone will BE the Mac user interface? I think the future is just getting started.

The problem with the iPhone is half assd convergance.

If the iPhone replaced other devices then it would be worth getting, provided one didn't have the other devices.

Then of course is the lack of a GPS.

San Niklos
very valid points. I share some of your views, but definately not the scratching concerns. After some therapy I stopped abusing my wife for touching my computer and I now let my daughter place stickers on it. This are tools and tools get worked, get two and store one if you collect object d'art The drugs are working and the sky is alwyas prettty.

This stuff is so much like the complaints about the iPod when it was coming out. "No wireless." Remember that one, guys?

Look, if you're freaked out about getting your laptop accidentally scratched, you need to check into an OCD clinic. How do you handle coffee stains or boogers, dude?

Do you think that the iPhone will not be expandable by third parties? Remember the iPod guys and the whole universe of third party accessories? Why would Apple change a good thing?

As for the people wanting to change the name, bray all day about how the name should be something else, but when the sun sets, it's still OS X. So why waste time on something you can't change? Do you really think Apple execs read MDN and change course depending on what you post? Please!

MikeR
The Nokia N73 for $450 is user programamble and it has some very powerful features as well. there is even a beta of skype running on it and many after market pieces of sotware. and of course is unlocked- that last issue is a deal breaker for many people. Locking a phone to subsidize development might be finacial practical on the surface but is shortsighted because of the penaltly on market penetration - and quick penetration is everything, ask your mate

To all people discussing the OS on the phone, let me repeat what Jobs said in January and several times since then:

iPhone has OS X. It is a full, complete OS X.
Macs have Mac OSX (notice the difference? Let me repeat: Mac OSX, as opposed to OS X).

You cannot put OS X (the one from the iPhone) onto a Mac; neither can you put Mac OS X on a phone (or any other device).

They both are, however, OS X (darwin and all).

And to all others who don't quite like the features, that's just fine. I am still convinced that this phone will sell beyond Apple's wildest expectations. Because:

1. (most important) Cool factor; piggybacking on the iPod fame, only light years cooler;
2. User interface (most intuitive ever);
3. Full browser (for most people, the screen size is large enough for normal browsing);
4. Full e-mail (for most people, this is important; that's why they bought Blackberries before);
5. Pictures (for most people, they'll love being able to show vacation pictures wherever they are, without having to carry picture albums);
6. Integrated with iPod, actually usable calendar, actually usable address book, and phone;
7. Visual voice mail (incredibly useful gimmick)
8. Right price (StarTac, RAZR and similar were more expensive when they came out)

Also, for Apple, this is an excellent trojan horse for getting people to switch.

@whatever

you are so right, think of all the people who will start to use Safari!

Nick wrote...

How else could Apple cram an OS into that small form factor...

Simply put - it's Apple Magic!

The Apple Fairies are at it again!

"This is the biggest trojan horse ever. Very smart move from Apple."

Absolutely. And I would expect the Safari browser on the iPhone to have the following URL set as the default homepage:
http://www.apple.com/startpage/

"How do you handle coffee stains or boogers, dude?"
At the same time with a giant, steaming hot cloth and vinegar. Power tools if it's serious. Some people stare. I don't mind.

"Your life spirit would have departed."

Remind me to contact "Crossing Over with John Edward" if lose my iPhone.

Mark A Lot
Apple gutte(d) Mac OS X to make the iPhone OS, it's NOT MAC OS X.

This is all revolving around semantics, which I hope to dispel with a comparison.

Is anyone else here aware that "Linux" is the kernel of an operating system, and that's all "Linux" is? KDE is not Linux, it runs on Linux. X Window is not Linux, it runs on Linux. Firefox, Netscape, Open Office, Kopete, RPM, Gnome... none of these elements that make Linux worth running *is* Linux.

OS X is a kernel, an OS upon which everything else that makes a Mac a Mac runs.

When Steve Jobs says the iPhone is running OS X, he is not engaging in deception. The actual guts of OS X is the kernel, and that can be measured in 10s of megabytes. Everything else is stuff you layer on top to allow a human to interact with the kernel.

Sure, there is probably a development name for the iPhone interface, but that interface is running on OS X. To dispute this is to lose sight of what an operating system actually is.

More detailed explanation here.

lurker

Have you considered that after June 29, what you've seen on the iPhone will BE the Mac user interface? I think the future is just getting started.

AOL

Ah, I forgot that it will probably be a PDA. Strange that that hasn't been mentioned yet by Steve or anyone. Perhaps that's because it'll take on iCal features that won't be announced until June 11th.

Now that I think about it, with the PDA it's probably going to end up bought and in my pocket.

Pretty cool that the device has/will have so many features that even if you don't use half of them the other half make it a must-buy.

'Scuze me, I've got to go buy a few more AAPL.

MW: "believe"

I'd also point out that Jobs' quote is still that it is powered by "OS X", not Mac OS X. So when Walt said, "So you could run Mac OS X applications?" Jobs sidestepped by pointing out that things like the Menu Manager and such were not available (because how are you going to pull down menus?)

Much like the Microsoft trial, it comes down to the question of "What is an Operating System?" For example, I doubt there's a Finder on the iPhone. Is the Finder part of Mac OS X? Undoubtedly. But is the Finder part of OS X? Nope.

I mean, take a look at the size of mach_kernel in the root directory (you have to go to the terminal for this one). It's a touch over 4MB. If you call that the operating system, it will easily fit on a phone. You also might remove technologies that are not applicable--do you need the DiscRecording, DVDPlayback, TWAIN, and Xgrid Frameworks? (Xgrid? Hmm...for you slashdot readers, imagine a Beowolf cluster of iPhones...) :-D

But are those frameworks "part of OS X"? Who decides what is part of OS X? Well, just like Microsoft at their anti-trust trial, Apple is the one who gets to decide what is "OS X"? So by Apple's definition, it's "real OS X" even if it doesn't include support for Xgrid and burning CDs.

So if you take a Lincoln Navigator SUV, remove the bodywork to shorten it a couple of feet, remove the navigation system, 10-speaker stereo, leather, and 3rd seat and a portion of the body insulation and electronic brakeforce distribution, but you leave in the A/C and power steering and four wheels, it's still a Lincoln Navigator?

Ya'll are crazy with this cut a person's skin off, etc.

You think just because you can come up with some illustration that it's the right illustration.

Well, how about a photograph of your mom (not to bring your mom into this): At 100 MegaPixels it's a picture of your mom, but what it you reduce the picture to 10 MP's. Still a picture of your mom? How about reducing it to 1 MP. Still a picture of your mom? Yeah. Yeah it is.

Please get a grip all you would-be logicians. Just being able to think of an analogy doesn't make it the right analogy. Certain things, by their nature, are unitary -- a song, a person, a car, but other things are not -- a stream (half the water still makes it a stream), work (serving half the number of customers at the restaurant in the same 8 hours as yesterday still makes it a day's work), etc.

Yes, it's still OSX even if it doesn't allow DVD burning. Seriously.

jay

So if you take a Lincoln Navigator SUV, remove the bodywork to shorten it a couple of feet, remove the navigation system, 10-speaker stereo, leather, and 3rd seat and a portion of the body insulation and electronic brakeforce distribution, but you leave in the A/C and power steering and four wheels, it's still a Lincoln Navigator?

No offense, but this is why I despise most analogies. They are distracting and many times misleading. If the in the lingo, "Navigator" refferred to the engine of the Lincoln, then yes, it is a Navigator.

There is not need for comparisons or analogies, the info is straight up: the iPhone runs OS X, and OS X is the basis for the Mac GUI, as well as the iPhone GUI.

> BS, of course the iPhone has a miniaturised version of OS X. I mean, how else could Apple cram an OS into that small form factor.

Not true. I have installed the real Mac OS X on a 5GB iPod and used it as a utility drive for troubleshooting Macs. If you do a customized installation and not install all the things you do not need, such as the languages and printer drivers, you can get the intallation under 3GB (including Safari, Disk Utility, and other essential apps). Now, think about all the other system components you wouldn't need for an iPhone versus a Mac, and I'm sure the installation (including apps) can get under 1GB. Try that with Windows Vista.

Ok, OS X lite, then. If it does not contain every feature on the 10.X disc, it's got to be lite.

No matter, I plan on having my own iPhone ASAP.

Is the Kernel the same as the OS X.4 Tiger kernel, or have they done something to the software AND kernel with all those OS X.5 Leopard software engineers that they pulled to work on this project?

Food for thought.

"Ok, OS X lite, then. If it does not contain every feature on the 10.X disc, it's got to be lite."

That is a ridiculous statement.

So if I don't install Asian fonts or the Dutch Language kit I don't have OS X? You are oversimplifying. Saying it over and over isn't going to make it true.
But forgive me if I take the word of, oh, say the guy who runs the company.