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Apologies all around? Not likely to happen I'm sorry top say.

There are only 10 reasons to be in business. The first is to make a profit, and the other nine don't count.

Anybody that went Windows only made a business decision to do so, just like those that produced Mac products. There is no room for emotional decisions in business.

That firms are coming back to the Mac platform should be celebrated, not denigrated, because the business case for developing Mac products now makes sense.

This is good news for Mac users and investors alike.

MDN MW = size, as in size of market share is very important to those making Mac products. That share is now growing. Welcome it, and those that are changing their business model to exploit it.

In the end we all benefit.

I'm sorry. Now please let me have my iMac back.

SteveJack: "We'll take you guys and gals back with semi-open arms, but we want to hear some real contrition first. And how about promising not to abandon us again at the first sign of a patch of rough road?"

I agree. Ithink we deserve at least that much, too.

I say let them drink the special kool-aid...

Apple Stores do exist every other retailer does not make in my radar. Not only that, I actually have started to reply differently than before to MANY Windows users how life is on a Mac and if they should switch now that Mac NOW looks really good.

What I say to them is that they must have suffered Stockholm syndrome for years, this is the only explanation for their will to be screwed and screwed and screwed repeatedly without even considering that since we Mac users were VERY happy with our experience there must have been something in those Mac platforms and OS. OS X is out since 5+ years. We still have to see a malware that deserves to be called malware and not doobie shit good for morons, err, Windows average users.

I reply that they spent so many years with Windows I do not believe they should switch now. They deserve to die with Windows. They always look at me now with a very funny look and I explain them: Look, I have been talking to you about Mac OS X and trying to really do you a favor by taking you out of your misery. I now do not care if you do switch, actually, it would bother me you would switch now. I am convinced that after having drank pee for so many years you could not understand champagne. So I am really tired from trying to make you taste champagne for so many years. Do what you think but do not bother me. Mac did not need you (general you) as customer before, it shows it does not need you now. What Mac will enjoy is new users, new comers, people not corrupted by Windows so long as you are. Stay on Windows, you deserve it!

Yeah, that would be smart-just when Apple has made its case, and made the world see how great Macs and OS X are, we current users should act like jerks towards people who show renewed interest in the product. Smart, real smart.

I'll take a wait and see approach 'cause it's too early to see how this plays out. But in the mean time I say we still hold their feet to the fire by pointing out the flawed thinking in their rhetoric and factual errors in their talking points.

When they can talk the talk then they can begin the walk...

The first time I went into a Circuit City store was in 1998. I didn't realize they did not carry Apple products. When I asked a salesman to show me the Macs, he gave me a disgusted look and said "We don't carry that crap!". Needless to say, I walked out and never went back. And I think it's safe to say that I never will.

We should welcome them will full open arms. Only recently has the price and perfomance comparison clearly shown Mac's superiority.

Not at all. This isn't a cult. If Windows was a better system than Mac, I'd use it.

In fact, as with all "chosen people", we will wind up doing the heavy lifting to help the hapless newbies incorporate. Fortunately, that's relatively easy on a Mac. I've done it on almost every system I've "sold" - it takes a couple of weeks until the recovering Win user starts walking for him- or herself.

We destroy our enemies by making them our friends. Each copy of XP that goes dark and inactive is a victory and a burden at the same time. The world becomes a (slightly) better place.

The ignorant leaders of the ignorant masses will carry a special shame - having to play catch-up. Kommando and Dvorak and all their ilk look like fools every time they open their mouths vis-a-vis Mac. That's $, folks. Likewise, the fools in the box stores who are missing the resurgence of the Mac market.

Of course we let them back in, and we won't be smug, smart asses about it either, otherwise we just prove them right. Mac users should be out rejoicing over all the converts, not demanding retribution. A happy convert often makes the best evangelist, just ask Paul.

It's a fuss about nothing.

Those who don't already know about Macs aren't buying them because they're not on sale in ordinary stores. Therefore they'll buy what's on offer and it isn't a Mac.

Unless Macs are sold in a variety of outlets there will be loads of people who don't come across an easy opportunity to buy one. There needs to be a broad mix of outlets, mail order, Toys-R-Us, major department stores, big supermarkets and computer dealers, specialist Apple stores and all the others too.

Mac die-hards might not like the buying experience that they would get if they carried a boxed Mac to a supermarket checkout, but such customers already know where to buy Macs. So long as a broad mix of outlets is provided, each customer can buy in the way that suits them best.

Of course it would be wonderful if everybody who could benefit from a Mac got to purchase one from a fully trained Apple specialist, dressed in a smart black outfit with a stylish logo, inside an air-conditioned temple to all things Apple, but ultimately it's much more important that they buy a Mac somewhere than simply get another PC because it's too hard to find a Mac.

SteveJack,

Not just beautiful writing, but an excellent question:

They left us for dead, now they want us to patronize their businesses?

Really, should we Mac users just run back blissfully thankful that they're back to the Mac or should we expect something from companies whose representatives once sneered at or ignored the Mac platform for so long?

Maybe we should just spend our money at Apple Retail Stores and with others who kept the faith instead?

Let's not lose the real point of this article:

They left us for dead, now they want us to patronize their businesses?

I have been mistreated for years as a Mac user. Literally laughed at buy co-workers, friends, family, retailers, media outlets, etc. for using a Mac. I, for one, cannot so easily forgive.

Best Buy, Circuit City, PC Rag, Komando, etc. would do well by me to be a little contrite as they announce they'll be catering to Mac users again.

I've been a Mac user all my life, and have had to deal some pretty harsh criticism about it. I'll let all those jerks in, but I'll also always know they are just Intel Mac pansies that are only doing it because it is the fad now. True Mac users know that the OS is where the Mac is, whether it is running on a PPC, 68k or X86.

Those of us who have been Mac users for a while know where we can and cannot find good help on Mac products. We know that the best places are those who are serious about it.

By serious, I mean a sales force that is knowledgeable and passionate about the products. Just having them on the shelf, no matter how popular they are, doesn't mean they're going to sell well.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. If Circuit City and anybody else puts their sales force through appropriate training (which is an investment) and can accurately sell a Mac to a customer - switcher or not - then they'll do well.

If they don't, and they just put the products out their without the training to go with it, they'll fail. And they'll wonder why they can't hop on the Mac bandwagon.

It all depends on just how serious they really are.

Speaking as an Apple customer for 28+ years - my advice is to get over it and welcome the new Mac users into the community.

I say be cool, they will eventually figure out themselves that they were wrong. No need to be an eltist prick (like most of the writers here on MDN), that just scares away potential mac lovers.

Kim Komando? I thought that was just a statement about her choices in knickers?

spend your money an Apple Stores, physical and online stores. Windows switchers: I do not see them as prodigal sons nor I am going to make a party for everyone that does it because NOW Macs are a serious thing.

Sure, I won't be smug and all but I will point out that the Mac is not good NOW, was good and was better even before. They were just too blind to see it. Too much kool-aid from Microsoft and brain-washed by Windows techies pretending to be IT professionals.
The only reaction I am having these days when (and there are) switchers comes to me is a aseptic "Good for you. What took you so long? Was a no-brainer since years, if one had a brain that is".

Fact is, I am happy only because their money is making Apple more able to be even more an industry leader and innovator. I am happy because their money will allow Apple to achieve more and I'll take profit from that. But in terms of forgetting the debates, quite vitriolic at times, sorry: I'll always make them remember how idiotic their position was at the time. "Now you see why I think you die-hard Windows users are morons"

I have Windows switchers come and praise how good is this, how good is that, etc. I reply that for us Mac users it has been pretty normal for years that way and that we expect even better and push Apple to be better all the time. The fact is you Windows users are too much used to crap. As Mac users you are of little use as you will just praise Apple for everything and take everything with a Ohhhh, Ahhhhh, Wow. Pretty silly to me. It actually shows once more how clueless you are. What have you been doing with Windows all these years: screwed and ask for more? I'd say Apple is too good for you and if it was for you ex-Windows users Apple could close all its R&D;department and stop innovating for 20 years before you realize that something better could be done.

I have a relative in Apple: sales are AMAZING. Over 70% more YoY in education market. It is just ridiculous. Apple will soon have 20 Billions in cash.

Macintosh users are no more a cult than people who use Hasselblad or Leica cameras, Gibson or Martin Acoustic guitars, Mark Levinson Stereo Amps, or shop at the local farmer's market. Some people simply appreciate stuff that performs well, is well made and handled by people who know how to treat customers.

I use the Mac OS because of what it is, not because of the label on it. If the sh*t OS was from Apple and the good one was from MS I would buy the geed one. I am of the generation that grew up with computers and have owned: Apples, Commodores, TI's, Bowmars, AT&T;'s, and a host of others. I have used midi & minicomputers from Burroughs, Sperry, Data General, Digital, Wang, IBM. I have used Scientific Workstations from SUN & SGI. I have also had to tolerate every version of Windows from jump street to XP Pro. Otherwise- I have seen my share of OSes and User interfaces and know what is out there.

Windows XP is an unstable & insecure mess. No UNIX system I have ever seen has ever had the security problems that Windows users have to tolerate and put up with. In most places the IT 'solution' is to lock down the OS so tightly that instead of being a real computer it is little more than a dedicated terminal with a MS GUI. Even with draconian lock-downs, malware gets in the system. The ONLY reason to use Windows is because some specialized software that you needs runs only on Windows. My question to any pro vendor that drags a demo unit in running Windows is this-- "Why did you build a mission critical app on the least secure and most unstable platform available?"

Mac users are not a cult-- they just have a low tolerance for bullsh*t.

Uh... Wow... It's a computer.

Those who bought a Mac did so because you were making an informed decision about which computer to purchase and chose Apple. Let me repeat this for you, SteveJack: you CHOSE Apple. I am lefthanded, and feel much more left out because of the complete lack of lefthanded things, for instance, guitars (which I play). I did not choose to be lefthanded, nor would I change if I could (just like many wouldn't change to Windows), but I deal with it. Apple has always sold Mac Software as has, say CompUSA, which is where I bought my first Mac, oh, 13 years ago.

It does seem rather cultish-slash-illogical to expect apologies from businesses who are now carrying mac software. That doesn't even make sense. I respect your opinion and respectfully disagree. Only to fanatics whose entire life revolve around their computer would even conceive of the idea that someone should apologize to you for not carrying your software.

Think about your statement, SteveJack. It is nonsensical.

For example, where is the retraction from the so-called security expert with the "60-sec wireless hack on MacBook". Retracted? Nope. Just let the story die as the BS it was and no further comments. Jerks before, jerks now. When you live as an idiot you have good chances to die as one.

Forgive and forget? Never.
I will patronize Apple and other vendors who supported the platform in good times and bad.

As for the others? Well, they can go **** themselves.

Me bitter? Never.

: )

Right, then why Mac users have always had to stand the hateful speech from Windows users. We are the idiots who spend tons of money on toys, fag, tree-hugger, Apple is dying and you are too stupid to see it etc.
Indeed. We made an informed decision and saw that Apple was a better option in computing. It is the TROLL in every Windows user that make Mac users go ballistic. You have been IDIOTS for excruciatingly many years. Do not expect much respect. ALL those who trolled and bashed and worst than that are not going to be welcomed by me as new-found brothers. The apologies goes in the sense of acknowledging that they were wrong. The "Now Macs are worth to be looked at" is the new TROLLISH politically correct take. That kind of remarks will get a "You were an idiot before, you are an idiot now. One more time a clueless dildo going with the mass"

When it comes to software, I'm willing to forgive and forget, as long as the software is something I need and not just more bloat to clog up my hard drive.

When it comes to users, I'll welcome them into the fold and be happy to provide any help they need in making the adjustment.

But when it comes to so-called "computer experts", it's "Where have you been, LOSER?!?!?!?!?"

It aint us these bozos need to apologize to or convince, it's Steve Jobs. There's no way he even *wants* every craptastic bottom-feeding PC dealerto sell Macs- are you kidding me? Why has he spent lo these many billions on the Apple Stores, only to let every POS electronics store sell Macs? Having Walmart and K-mart selling Macs means the Apple Store brand is worth no more than theirs, and is no more cool-- he wants to see Macs sold next to MegaBundles of toilet paper?

No Way.

The whole idea is to come up with the most kick-ass product imaginable, and to have the whole world come crawling thru the doors of the Apple Store, tails dragging between their collective legs... "we're not worthy, Steve Jobs, but PLEASE let us buy your cool sh!t!"

If or when Vista becomes generally known to be more and more irrelevant and kludgy and uncool, so too does the entire ecosystem of Komando, Thurott, Dvorak et al. The worm of public opinion can turn at any moment, as we all know.

Don't believe for a second that they don't realize it as well.

Whoa! Why so angry? I'm not angry. Anyway, it is unseemly to hate the truly retarded.

Remember, these guys have always suppressed the price of AAPL with their bearing of false witness against Apple. In other words, they created buying opportunities for those of us who saw the Mac's potential. I've had a good dose of vengeance by investing in Apple. I will soon get a lot more, as I laugh my way to the bank, made rich by Apple.

Success is the best form of vengeance.

Forgive? Sure, but make them earn it! The next time I'm in the market for a new Mac, I'll go into one of these places, load up on any other merchandise I'm interested in, and then ask about the Macs. If they try to discourage me, or don't know about Macs, I'll put the merchandise down in front of them and leave the store.

Give them sun-shades.

I agree that I'm amused by some of the commentators, like Kim Komando and their ilk, who never had anything good to say about Macs. Now we have what I called "The Butters." When they say things now, it usually starts with, "I always thought that Macs were interesting, but..." It's pretty transparent and all you can do is laugh at them.

But when it comes to actually buying products, I don't really care. If Best Buy starts selling Macintosh software and they sell it for a reasonable price, I'll buy it there. I don't really care.

But Software Companies thinking of supporting Macs, we'll see. I remember big companies like Software Publishing Corporation (mid-80s) "supporting" Macintosh with crappy products. I remember Ashton-Tate's flailing around before finally buying dBase:Mac--too little and too late. I remember AutoDesk doing a straight port of AutoCAD--crappy DOS-like interface and all--to the Macintosh II and then couldn't figure out why it wouldn't sell and deciding that it was because there just "weren't enough Mac-using architects."

A company that wants to develop Mac software? More power to 'em! A company that figures they'll port their Windows software to the Mac in the the cheapest way possible? I'll pass, thanks.

I said nothing that you implied I believed. I am merely stating my belief that this idea that some retailer should apologize for not stocking a product is silly. I do not divide the world, like so many here, into "Mac User" and "Windows User" as if it were a religion or race (neither of which should be used as divisive criteria, as well). Some company not stocking software for you seems like an odd thing to take personal offense for. It is this same mentality that tempts so many (BUT NOT ME) to trash-talk "Mac Users" as a whole (which I have NEVER done).

I repeat my first comment:

"Uh... Wow... It's a computer."

>Apple specialist, dressed in a smart black outfit with a stylish logo,>

Don't you believe it. In the San Diego Apple store, nearly all the sales clerks are scruffy, some with rings in their noses and holes in their jeans. The only thing that is a little bit professional is the t-shirt, and some of those look to be smelly.
Most of them prance around as if they are something. One or two of them are very helpful, but if you're over 50 the rest will give you the waiter look.

1: Microsoft releases a near final stable version of Vista. Implications being to derail a Apple holiday season from potential switchers.

2: SteveJack goes nuts.

3: Note to SteveJack: Relax, let Steve Jobs and Co. figure out what to do, they are the marketing experts.

I don't remember Apple apologizing for denigrating Intel processors over the years before they switched their whole product line over to Intel.

And I'm sure SteveJack called all of his PC-using friends and apologized and asked for forgiveness before buying an Intel Mac.

The hypocrisy never ends.

Is this piece serious?

Just when Apple is starting to make inroads into the mass consumer consciousness for the first time in twenty years, SteveJack thinks we should get all precious and display a massive chip on our shoulder with regards to those who haven't treated us 'fairly'.

What a load of sanctimonious crap!

If I'm looking for an apology from anyone, the first group of people I'd like to talk to would be Apple's management in the mid-Nineties (Sculley, Spindler et al) who comprehensively deserted people like me who were trying to promote Apple in the corporate marketplace.

Here in the UK, we had Cable & Wireless, BP Exploration, CAP Gemini Sogetti and a host of other corporates who were committed Macintosh users, and - because Apple displayed the same snotty attitude that SteveJack is promulgating with this piece - they deserted the Macintosh and I was forced to manage projects that migrated corporates to the Windows/Office platform against the wishes of many user communities and middle managers and despite the presence of well-packaged products like the Power Macintosh 6100 and 8500.

There are other people high up on the Apple food chain who also owe us an apology and they never even left the community: Adobe's Bruce Chizen deserves an enormous kick up the arse for failing to develop Macintosh versions of many Adobe products and for that advert pandering to his new friends at Dell. And Microsoft should apologise for only ever doing enough for the Mac platform to keep it alive as opposed to treating it as an equal and helping it to progress.

Compared to those two 'fifth-columnists' and Apple's historical capacity for self-immolation, the actions of a second-rate retail chain or a journalist of whom I've never heard are pretty inconsequential.

Steve and company better surprise everybody with Leopard because Vista is looking to be a huge improvement over XP and closes the feature gap even smaller between OS X. Just check out the review and screenshots at http://www.pcmag.com

dennis,

Your argument is fatally flawed.

Intel haven't always made the best processors. Lately, they do.

Fanatic Realist,

You wrote: "There are other people high up on the Apple food chain who also owe us an apology and they never even left the community: Adobe's Bruce Chizen deserves an enormous kick up the arse for failing to develop Macintosh versions of many Adobe products and for that advert pandering to his new friends at Dell. And Microsoft should apologise for only ever doing enough for the Mac platform to keep it alive as opposed to treating it as an equal and helping it to progress."

So, you agree with SteveJack, you dope. Even if you're too stupid to realize it.

I teach many technology courses to undergrads and graduate students. Everyone in the grad class I have now were PC users when they began the masters program. Everyone sees the difference and are happy on Macs. A large majority of the students have purchased their own Macs. One has purchased an iMac and a MacBook Pro.

It does take experiencing the Mac difference and using all of the components of iLife to make the switch. Otherwise it's easier to stay with what is known.

Those who have switched have become our biggest salespeople! Yes, let's welcome those who choose to switch!

It's simple . . . LET THESE BASTARDS DIE! Our local computerworld shoved Macs into a corner and most had no power or info. Mac software was half a shelf at the end of the row. It's simple . . . LET THESE BASTARDS DIE! I'll dance outside the empty shop. Apple stores need to move to Apple shops and be present on every high street. In the UK we could use a few million bucks spent on promotion, I'm doing my best but could use a little backup.

Wow, this one of most pathetic news bits I've seen at MDN. When Macs were reeking up the town, I switched to PCs. When Mac OS X matured, I switched back. When PowerBooks were way too slow for what I needed, I ditched Mac again to go with an Athlon64 box. When MacBook Pro came out, I grabbed one and ditched my Athlon64 box.

Use the best tool for the job. Fan boys can suck it.

Welcome to the world of big biz. There will be no apologies. As we already see in some of the forums there's a huge variety of folks using Macs now - no longer just a small, rather liberal (heavy on the arts) group. Might as well welcome them all and also welcome the businesses we formerly couldn't stand.

It's finally turning into a Mac planet, thank God!

There's Windows sheep out there, they're welcome in our flock. They didn't put us down, some hardly realized the Mac was anything but an expensive PC.

Then there's the ones who would have if they could have, now they can and they have. How can you be bitter about someone forced by another's choice?

There are a few more categories, then you get to the two I can live without:
a) the ones who put us down
b) the ones who always sell crap
Point A should be obvious ... if you trash-talked Apple - even if it deserved it - you can go stew in your own juice. I may not be able to force you to live in a Windows-only world, but don't try to address my MUG.
Point B is less obvious. We're talking CompUSA and BestBuy, here. They put hardware on the shelves and tell you whatever you want to hear to get you to buy it. The Mac folk at MicroCenter - at least the one in Cambridge - are Mac users and know the product. Maybe not as well as the geeks at the Genius Bar, but they definitely have a clue. But, then, they never LEFT!

Icon…

No I don't, so please don't even try to tell me what I'm thinking.

SteveJack's piece says we should piss off the very people who may help broaden the appeal of the Mac or the people who have the ability to communicate the message of the Mac to a broader community by asking them for an apology before we'll let them into our gang.

My point is that the people who owe the long-term Macintosh user community (I'm a 1987 guy myself) an apology are Apple (for being witless for the years 1985-1997), Adobe (for failing to maintain a commitment to the platform: this does touch slightly on Jack's point, but my problem with them is not that they left the Apple market, but that - instead of acting as a cheerleader for Dell - they could have acted as a bellweather and pathfinder for the ISV market - Christ knows, it's the least they could have done considering Apple gave them life) and Microsoft for mediocrity, duplicitousness and general complacency.

When Apple, Adobe and Microsoft apologize for treating us like crap for various periods (concurrent and consecutive), that's when you should expect an apology from smaller organisations who had bills to pay or readerships to satisfy. Our problems were developed a lot closer to home than the targets SteveJack talks about and - if you don't realise that - you're a fool.

Fanatic Realist,

"For example, I'd have no problem shopping for Macs at a retailer who dropped Macs because they (and Apple) couldn't figure out how to sell superior personal computers running a superior operating system to people back in the late 1990's, if and only if, they first [apologized]." - SteveJack above.

Did you miss the "(and Apple)" part of SteveJack's sentence?

You have to read each word - they all mean something. In other words, they're there for a reason.

You agree with SJ more than you seem able to recognize.

Mr. STEVEjack, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent article were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this page is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


BTW- This is exactly the kind of crap that so many people site in reference to "smug" apple users; a notion I didn't really subscribe to until after the 5 minutes of my life I waisted on this article.

oops - "wasted" not waisted