“Like many Bronxites, borough president Rubén Díaz Jr. was disappointed when the Yankees lost to the Astros in this year’s playoffs. The reason extends beyond his own fanhood: One of the most significant images of the Bronx came from the 1977 World Series, when a camera looking down on Yankee Stadium captured a building that was on fire. The scene stigmatized the borough, which was experiencing a spate of arson among other symptoms of poverty. Today, crime in the Bronx is at an all-time low, billions of dollars are being invested in real estate development, and its population is growing. The last time the Yankees were in the World Series was 2009, and Díaz Jr. believes another one would give the borough a chance to showcase its recent prosperity,” Brian Josephs writes for The Outline. “Maybe then it could even get an Apple Store.”
“New York’s northernmost borough is the city’s most diverse, has the lowest income per household, and is the only borough without an Apple Store after one opened up in Brooklyn’s predominantly white neighborhood of Williamsburg last year,” Josephs writes. “This trend holds true on a national scale. That means 251 of the 270 stores, or 93 percent, are located in majority-white ZIP codes. Of the 19 that are not located in majority-white ZIP codes, eight are in ZIP codes where whites are still the largest racial bloc.”
“For context, Garden City, New York, a city with a population of around 22,000 that is 94 percent white, has an Apple Store,” Josephs writes. “Lake Grove, New York, which has a population of around 11,000 and is 89 percent white, has an Apple Store. By comparison, nearly 1.5 million people live in the densely-packed Bronx, which is only 21 percent white.”
MacDailyNews Take: Sheer population numbers don’t dictate where retailers go. Retailers go where the demographics (read: disposable income and the proven will to spend it) lead.
There’s not an Apple Store in Athens, Ohio where 84.7% of the population of 23,832 is white, 6.1% is asian, 4.3% is black, and 2.4 is hispanic, but the median income for a household is $17,122. The nearest store is an hour and a half away in Columbus, Ohio which, according to the 2010 U.S. Census is 61.5% white, 28.0% black, 5.6% hispanic, and 4.1% asian, but the median income for a household is $37,897. In other words: One location (38.5% non-white) is capable of supporting an Apple Retail Store (two stores, in fact) and the other location (15.3% non-white) is not.
The median income for a household in Garden City, New York is $112,854. In Lake Grove, NY it’s $67,174. In the Bronx, it’s $34,299. (Don’t make the mistake of comparing Columbus, OH median income with that of the Bronx. The cost of living between each place differs greatly.)
Skin color is not part of the equation.
“Apple told me it couldn’t comment on the record about what criteria it uses to decide where new stores are built or the demographics of its stores’ neighborhoods, but USC Marshall School of Business professor Ira Kalb reasoned that the company is ‘going after the high-end of the market, so their store location choices typically go after areas that are considered upscale,'” Josephs writes. “Thus, it’s likely that the racial disparity is a consequence of locating stores in wealthier neighborhoods — note how there’s no Whole Foods in the Bronx either. Apple Store neighborhoods have a median household income of about $73,475 per year; black American households earn a median average of $38,555, according to the ACS estimate for 2016. The median household income in the Bronx is $34,299.”
Josephs writes, “Aiming for consumers with more disposable income isn’t at all a new strategy, but Apple has made a point to emphasize its commitment to diversity…”
MacDailyNews Take: Yes, in hiring. Not in locating retail stores.
“Last year, Díaz signed a letter to Apple CEO Tim Cook urging the company to build a store in his borough: ‘Few brands are as recognized and admired as Apple, and an ‘Apple Bronx’ location would be another signal to the world that the Bronx is open for business,'” Josephs writes. “Díaz said he’s yet to receive a response.”
Read more in the full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: Apple only wants to put its stores where people with disposable income live.
Running to the media to play the race card likely isn’t the best method to attract Apple to invest in your community, Mr. Borough President. You’ll probably never hear from Apple CEO Tim Cook now.
If you want Apple to invest in your community, then attract employers, spur continuing education, and do whatever it takes to increase the median income to the point where it can support an Apple location profitably. Apple isn’t a charity. It’s a for-profit enterprise. It doesn’t exist to build stores in order to send a signal to the world about your area.
So, clearly, the more important question for the US is why, in 2017, does wealth remains correlated with predominantly white neighbourhoods? That is the real issue and the elephant in the room. Not the fact that Apple focuses its retail on those areas.
We could tell you but we would be called racists for speaking truth and statistics…
Ok go ahead and downvote the snot of this comment.
Have to seen what they’ve done to their kmarts. Trash inside and out. I wouldn’t build a slaughter house in a black neighborhood
When people grow up without being respected they tend to learn to not show respect in return. There’s nothing “special” about you that makes you inherently better behaved. You, like every other human, were shaped by the environment in which you learned.
That’s obviously not true. Environment doesn’t shape most of, let alone all humar behavior. Future time orientation, impulse control, IQ, are distributed differently along racial, genetic lines. Despite these differences black families were more stable and prosperous 60 years ago, before leftists social engineering in the 1960s destroyed them.
Apple may be a close to SJW-converged company, but they haven’t entered full suicide mode yet to open stores in the ghetto. Place like Palo Alto are close enough to it still that you’ll get “teens” stupid enough to drive a car through their front glass entrance to steal products. In Germany they have “Koran blocks” to prevent vehicular terror, in Silicon Valley they have “youth bollards”.
Wow, a eugenics-spouting bigotry comment gets a 4 out of 5 star rating. That’s pretty sad, even for MDN commenters. What’s going on here on this thread?
Coming from a degenerate supporter of abortion, go fuck yourself.
Dis. Gusting.
Well if you want to use truth and statistics and not be racist about it…
Statistically, people don’t change much from one economic class to another in the span of 1-2 generations. Prior to the Civil Rights Acts in the 1960s and further enforcement that went into the 70s and 80s, minorities were simply prevented from attending the same schools or living in the same neighborhoods (legally allowed until CRA, and then not necessarily enforced until much later).
Even today, you have situations where legacy points are given along with referrals that do present barriers to admissions (school, work, neighborhoods).
It’s easy to be outside of an impoverished neighborhood and claim the mantra that anyone in America can achieve anything… but those growing up in impoverished neighborhoods that go back generation after generation where slavery, segregation and other barriers held them back it’s hard to convince them that this is true… especially when their schools are financed primarily through local taxes which make them significantly sub-par.
With all of this, I’m not making excuses. I’m not suggesting there should be preferential treatment, reparations, or anything of the sort. I’m especially not suggesting Apple locate stores anyplace other than what makes sense in terms of the business.
However, to answer the question, “why in 2017 does wealth/location correlate so closely with race in America”, the primary reasons have to do with the fact that what held non-white races back for so long has only relatively speaking recently been lifted and it will take many generations before we start to see any sort of balance.
What makes America so great is that we’re at a point where opportunity is there. Personal responsibility, motivation, ambition, dedication, etc… are the biggest factors. Although yes, there are some unfair factors (in both directions in terms of advantages and disadvantages for minorities), but those are being ironed out.
TL;DR: Statistically, black kids born to a wealthy family are likely to be wealthy as adults. White kids born to an impoverished family are likely to be poor as adults. There’s no correlation to race as an inherent factor as opposed to other social-economic factors.
Very sanely formed argument. Clearly Government and local authorities amongst other bodies have a role in improving upon this and it sounds like things are on that track in the Bronx and indeed its true that companies can proactively encourage it by anticipating it in any given location and by doing so speeding up those changes, its also true that its a fine balance that a company like Apple has to consider very carefully as at the end of the day they are not a technology version of a food bank. I guess when Mercedes, BMW, Gucci et al start to open locations in the area (others can tell me if they have) then perhaps Apple could be expected to, but they can’t be expected to do so as some social experiment.
Not strictly related but perhaps an interesting example of how a useful compromise can be achieved at times is something I saw on a recent visit to Ellesmere Port near Liverpool (UK) I made. Its a terribly run down former industrial powerhouse that reeks of poverty. Yet just out of town there is a Retail Park that is the most impressive in terms of assesible upmarket, ‘street’ and fashionable names I have ever seen even in and around London. However only a few miles down the road is Chester which is at the opposite end of the wealth league and thus you have a location that can serve that demographic too while helping to drag up and improve the run down area over time. However that was a Green field site and suitable locations to do a similar job situated between high and low wealth areas are not easily obtainable.
Rather then help the impoverished with what they need, the government aka mainly the democrats gave them free money, free housing, free phones, etc, etc. all for votes. What they didn’t give them was a sense of pride, work ethic, respect for themselves or other, self accomplishment, drive to better themselves or the skills to better themselves. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a life time.
The impoverished then idolized criminals and criminal behavior through movies and music.
Violence was taught by parents as a way to resolve conflicts or when you “think” someone disrespected you. Jail is a right of passage and they were taught by the system of handouts if you want to improve your living situation just have more babies and you’ll get more money.
I don’t blame Apple for not going into these areas, they certainly don’t want their stores robbed more then they are now.
Only the impoverished can help themselves as the tools are all there. Playing the victim all the time and asking for more handouts just enslaves them more.
I’m from a broken family with no money, lived in my car, had to decide at some point in my life if I wanted to spend $1 on a meal or splurge for $1.25 and get some cheese on m sandwich. What my father did instill was a sense of pride, pride not to take free handouts when you have the ability to work and survive. Today I’m a multi millionaire through hard work and discipline, not free handouts.
i don’t disagree with some of your points but I would point out that a ‘colored’ group : American Asians are among the richest groups in USA, 40% of tech students in places like Caltech are Asians.
it’s not politically correct nowadays to point out such discrepancy ( today we buy into the politically correct myth that ALL groups — regardless of culture, upbringing inn etc — are all the same .)
asians suffered huge amounts of discrimination and abuse — indentured asians working on the railways etc we’re practically slaves who did the worse jobs like blasting tunnels in the Rockies, , ‘lucky’ asians who got out of the railways , mines etc did work no one else wanted like back breaking HAND WASH laundries i, domestic servants etc (we don’t hear a lot about abuse to asians or have it in historical records, media like movies etc because Asians seldom cause a ruckus or complain — THEY JUST WORK) . now they are among the richest americans instead of the poorest. That in spite of the fact due to low population numbers they have virtually ZERO political power vs it other ethnic minorities.
If you actually look at the FACTS there ARE cultural differences and approaches to life. No point talking more as i know i’m not going to convince any of the ‘politically correct blinders wearing apostles’ — only thing to say is actually go and really LOOK — instead of screening things through a lens of ‘belief’ ( like the belief that certain ethnic groups are down because of discrimination and NOTHING else)
BTW, i’m writing this holidaying in CAMBODIA (one of the poorest countries in the world — poor due to the Khmer Rouge killing fields — started through american bombing in the Vietnam War). The poor villages i passed through are very very clean and tidy — no trash in the compounds —WAY CLEANER than some ghetto ares in New York where i lived 20 years ago — in spite of the fact ‘poor’ Americans probably have many times the money of poor— many in Cambodia work really hard in spite of few opportunities— the young 25 year old concierge in my hotel works near 20 hrs a day — napping on a couch, the resilience is 1000 times more than some ‘poor’ (who often grossly overweight and obese, smoking drugs etc) in USA complaining continually about discrimination.
problems in USA as every where else will never get solved if people including the ‘victims’ don’t look at the true facts but look at things through a distorted lens like the falsity that certain neighbourhood s are dirty because they are ‘poor’ ( see my poor cambodian village example above)
My former roommate was a principal at Fairfax, VA high school one of the richest school districts in the U.S.
He would point out the majority of top ten students academically, year after year, were Asian.
It is sad they are not recognized for what they contribute to the greater good of the country …
“it’s not politically correct nowadays to point out such discrepancy ( today we buy into the politically correct myth that ALL groups — regardless of culture, upbringing inn etc — are all the same .) “
The opposite of that has yet to be shown in any major credible study.
You’re comparing the Asian American experience to the African American, Native American, Mexican American experience and making the assessment that Asians had it “just as bad”, but whether it was worse/better isn’t really the driving point. It was very much different with different opportunities in terms of where they could live, what job opportunities there were, and where they could go to school.
Further where Asian Americans were able to form communities with much greater choice and freedom than African Americans resulting in huge differences in subcultures and ultimately social economic classes.
My TL;DR still applies to Asian Americans as much as it does to African Americans.
your argument seems to be all asians communities are better because of some weird geographical accident and somehow they got less discriminatory hell than hispanics etc? seriously?
(if those areas where the others live are so bad then why the heck don’t they move like the asians?)
you say:
‘further asian americans where able to form communities with much greater choice and freedom”….
How did that happen? some magic asian fairy godmother that is more powerful than the Hispanic etc version ? Asians are visible minorities, shoot many didn’t even speak English when they came, many were indentured like slaves, they were forced into ghettoes called “China, Japan etc—towns”. your statement is contrary to all historical records.
like i said people like you are looking at it with “political position blinders on’
how does your logic explain this:
wikipedia
USA. HOUSEHOLD INCOME;
Asian Americans : $74,245
White: $ 59,698
so by your logic all these millions of asians somehow, although a visible minority with near zero political power, somehow landed in the ‘lucky draw’ of geographical location? SERIOUSLY? so asians have more ability to move , more opportunities than Whites? Just by luck they even earn more than white folks? they are less discriminated than not only blacks and hispanics etc but white folks???
(this income stats in spite of huge numbers of penniless ‘boat people’ etc refugees after the Vietnam war diluting salary numbers. This includes Laotians, cambodians etc. Within one generation they had risen from zero to contributing members of society. Refugees often worked as low wage labourers but made their children go to school, study like crazy— saving pennies for collage, work, Many of the second generation are now doing well — contributing to the income stats above, for insight to attitude Look at the Anthony Bourdain episode on LA Koreatown; korean parents won’t accept their kids having less than perfect’A’ scores in school)
my contention makes a LOT more sense i.e that attitude: determination, hardwork, cultural focus on education etc than your idea that asians somehow landed in lucky areas and that white folks decided to ‘love asians’ (for some reason) while. prosecuting blacks, hispanics and somehow ‘locking blacks etc in in certain areas’ so can’t move ( like asians)
shoot the Civil War is over for more than a hundred years. Blacks can move. Segregation also affected asians (a ‘Chinaman’ could NOT drink from a ‘white fountain’ in the South). decriminatory policies that affected Blacks, hispanics also affected Asians.
But I said i know i know i will never convince anyone with certain ‘Politcally Correct Beliefs” because it’s almost religious faith base belief system rather fact or observation based.
White folks having a paternalistic distorted view isn’t helping anybody. I’ve never heard any ‘diversity’ ‘welfare’ ‘descrimination’ politician, advocate etc ever say ‘best thing is to get off you butt, study , work, move if you have to” like apparently Asian Americans tell their kids (the same attitudes that poor starving irish, prosecuted Jews etc had when they came. This ‘attitude’ stuff is completely missing from the political correct position Today)
That’s not my point at all. Just to clarify…
In response to the question of why in 2017 does wealth remain correlated with predominantly white neighborhoods, and that the answer would get one called racist for speaking the truth, I wrote that the truth here doesn’t involve racism, but rather history and the statistical reality that it is rare for those in a social-economic classes to migrate more than one level within a generation or two.
Further no credible study has shown any evidence of race as an inherent factor as opposed to other social-economic factors… hence, blacks born to a wealthy family are likely to be wealthy as adults and whites born to impoverished families are likely to be poor as adults.
“your argument seems to be all asians communities are better because of some weird geographical accident and somehow they got less discriminatory hell than hispanics etc?”
No. I’m saying that each immigration group that came to America received vastly different opportunities and experiences. These statistically transfer from generation to generation and until relatively very recently, the law itself backed isolating people into these experiences.
”(if those areas where the others live are so bad then why the heck don’t they move like the asians?) ”
Because until the civil rights act, there was legal segregation. Even after the civil rights act, there was lack of enforcement followed by other issues resulting in restrictions (some to a much less degree even today). Further, you’re asking if living in a wealthy neighborhood results in a statistically much higher probability of obtaining wealth in the next generation, why doesn’t the family move to the wealthy neighborhood… uh, because they’re not wealthy?
”How did that happen? some magic asian fairy godmother”
Asian Americans were provided with vastly different opportunities than African Americans and even Hispanic Americans. While yes, what they endured was not by any means right, nonetheless, where and how they immigrated was vastly different.
There’s a huge difference between Chinatowns being indentured “like slaves” and actually being a slave and forced to live on a plantation, with virtual slavery on the plantation afterwards, followed by displacement and impoverished communities being formed that essentially trapped people into poverty while the Chinatowns ended up with immigrants who came as teachers, business people, etc…
”my contention makes a LOT more sense i.e that attitude: determination, hardwork, cultural focus on education etc than your idea that asians somehow landed in lucky areas and that white folks decided to ‘love asians’ (for some reason) while. prosecuting blacks, hispanics and somehow ‘locking blacks etc in in certain areas’ so can’t move ( like asians) ”
Your contention isn’t entirely wrong, you’re just not understanding what I’m saying and are completely discounting the impact that breaking out of one social-economic class is extremely difficult, especially when the law isn’t on your side.
You mentioned the Vietnamese boat people. I grew up in a middle class neighborhood. There were several Vietnamese who attended our school. While almost all arrived penniless, there were doctors, lawyers, teachers and other skilled/educated people. They formed communities that ended up supporting people within the subclass of every economic level. So what you’re discounting here is that although most were penniless, they weren’t the lowest social-economic class. Most importantly, they had very good schools to go to.
”shoot the Civil War is over for more than a hundred years. Blacks can move.”
Only relatively recently has the law supported this, and even more recently the enforcement. But be that as it may, can you tell me how exactly an impoverished family say in Southern Mississippi can move to a wealthy neighborhood where schools are properly funded, crime isn’t an issue, and there are plenty of business opportunities?
To address your question regarding household income levels…
Those aren’t the full numbers that show the whole story. If you break down net worth:
20th percentile
white $10,468 versus $9,319 asian
Median
white $133,236 versus $132,653 asian
90th percentile
white $1,260,430 versus $1,448,118 asian
It goes up from there. The point being that there are greater percentages of poor Asians than whites, but there are wealthier Asians as a percentage than whites. Which also correlates to the fact that Asian Americans have had large numbers of recent (and wealthy/educated) immigrants and is a much smaller demographic.
Likewise, we could point to recent immigration trends for hispanics and see huge numbers of recent immigrants coming into the US taking extremely low end jobs “that nobody else wants”… Yes, that’s going to skew the household income or net worth numbers in a major way and has nothing to do with inherent racial differences.
“But I said i know i know i will never convince anyone with certain ‘Politcally Correct Beliefs” because it’s almost religious faith base belief system rather fact or observation based.”
That’s the argumentative equivalent to me calling you a racist. I’m not, and I’d appreciate the same respect in return.
Most excellent post and agree with all your finer points …
Sorry my last comment was so long, and I failed to address this point:
“White folks having a paternalistic distorted view isn’t helping anybody. I’ve never heard any ‘diversity’ ‘welfare’ ‘descrimination’ politician, advocate etc ever say ‘best thing is to get off you butt, study , work, move if you have to” like apparently Asian Americans tell their kids (the same attitudes that poor starving irish, prosecuted Jews etc had when they came. This ‘attitude’ stuff is completely missing from the political correct position Today)”
Yes, I totally agree that anyone living in poverty should be told to get off their butt, study, work hard, keep their nose clean, and they can achieve pretty much anything the American Dream has to offer.
However, when you’re looking at large groups of people with various significant differences in opportunities and resources, it should be expected that we will see different results… and that has nothing to do with race (either as an excuse or as a solution).
i don’t want to be argumentative either but i can actually contest most of your points.
I ‘ll just give a few examples:
— your earning percentile rates actually show that the earning rates of Asians even at the lowest percentile are very close to whites , the mid near matches while the higher end exceeds them.
this shows either:
a) there is less descrimation that ‘diversity’ etc advocates are saying or
b) there is something inherent in culture and attitude of the Asians that made the difference
— you try to explain away the progress of the boat people which i mentioned besides Vietnamese also includes Loations, Cambodians etc. Most of these came penniless, from war torn countries, often traumatized, brutalized and many raped by pirates, enduring refugee camps, some for years. Most not speaking English. Even today most of the people in those countries are poorly educated, I was just in Cambodia ( typing this in Singapore now) and in Cambodia even today 80-90% are farmers. So to say these boat people rose up in less than a generation ( i don’t see a lot of them in welfare slums today) because there were a sprinkling of doctors etc among them (from your personal observation) and this is somehow GREATER than advantages of some USA born ENGLISH speaking ethnic minorities who say they are improvished solely due to descrimination without ‘attidude’ playing a significant part beggars credulatity. A handful of doctors etc among the broken boat people can raise the who group according to you in less than one generation ?— so i want to ask are there no hispanic or black doctors or teachers? these couldn’t have raised THEIR coomunities to even traumatized, penniless, mostly non english speaking boat people refugee levels? because it’s got nothing to do with attitude but geography and luck? that’s bending facts to a pretzel to fit a political view.
— you also propose the idea that ‘kids in wealthy families will grow up rich and kids in poor families will remain poor’ … so how do you explain hundreds millions of improvised Chinese becoming middle class in China and how starving Irish (from peasant uneducated backgrounds) making it in USA. According to your theory if they were poor they should remain so. Surely poverty stricken irish with no money in their pockets travelling thousands of miles sort of also shoot your ‘poor people can’t move’ theory.
— as for no racial differences, i don’t really know what to say to that. I believe all races have talents etc, they might even be similar — but i do know there are cultural differences. Just look at the countries colonized by southern hispanic countries vs those by Northern European. I am NOT saying the Spanish were ‘stupid’ ( anybody with geniuses like velazquez are not ‘inherently dumb’) but it’s irrefutable that cultural, religious views have resulted in different outcomes (more proverty etc) in their colonies than those ruled by for example the English. i’m not being racist, i’m pointing out historical facts. ( the spanish at that time actually conquered the vastly more developed and richer South America)
As for Asian communities there are significant differences in how they approach life which have resulted in greater economic wealth (their success is not due lack of descrimination against them , geographic luck etc vs other races). Take their attitude towards schools, besides near universally (even among the very poor) demanding their kids study hard they also do things like set up private schools in their communities. This is an Asian community phenomena. Parents including poor labourers in restaurants etc pool their pennies to set up these schools for extra tutoring for their kinds, a thing which few other ethnic minorities try hard to do ( wanting to spend their pennies on OTHER things)
When i asked local born Chinese kids how they learnt to read and write Chinese, they said that they all AFTER a full day of normal school attended Chinese school where besides language, they got tutoring in maths , music etc — ALL FUNDED PRIVATELY by parents ( many of home were restaurant, grocery shop workers etc). — i.e they went to 8-10 hrs of school a day ! How many of the other ethnic groups complaining do that, set up private schools and push their kids into 8-10 hrs if schooling a day — and don;t tell me asian parents do these because they are ‘richer’— they’ve done it even when they were poor ( the school my local chinatown kids go through is near 100 years old). Poverty ridden boat people who were vietnamese did the same thing almost immediately ( even illiterate non english speaking ones realize hardwork and education was the path out)
there are other examples of how different races approach life and achieve success — there has to be a reason why so many of the prominent Atomic bomb scientists in Manhattan project in 1950s were Jews for example. It’s not ‘geographic luck’ etc but the Jews culture of the love of higher education (again i’m not being racist but pointing out a historical fact) they succeeded in spite of descrimination— showing that attidude, cultural beliefs of loving education, hard work plays a huge part.
i’m not saying that descrimination does not happen but COMPLETELY OVERBLOWN for the massive abject poverty, ruined neighbourhoods of some ethnic groups — attitude plays a way larger part.
actually the many policies advocated by SJWs are often bad and desciminatory. For example polically correct diversity rules means that many qualified Asians and white males are penalized and denied tech jobs as they make up the vast bulk of tech GRADUATES (40% of cal tech undergrads are asian for example).
asians need 450 extra SAT points to get into some high end schools.
this is extremely discriminatory and leads to blizzare situations : an american born child of a recent poor Laotian needs 450 extra SAT points than the child of a recent Nigerian immigrant. They are looking at the ‘yellow skin’ vs the ‘black skin’ , to me it’s terrible, (like Nazi racial determinism) but SJW think policies like this are wonderful. Do THEY want to be that asian kid, studying to get a extra hundreds of points which basically means you have ‘no life’ (like recreation) for YEARS/? of course not but they think it’s ok to do it to asians and in fact pat themselves on the back
but of course most SJW Policies (supported by manipulators or the clueless) have NOTHING to do with facts. stats. justice or fairness , instead today it’s about political power , some ethnic groups with numbers and organized agitation have it but Asians etc don’t., perhaps asians should stop studying so hard but do more protesting..
“your earning percentile rates…”
You’re misreading the data. It’s net worth, not earnings. The point of breaking down by percentile is that your point was that Asians made significantly more than Whites. But your statistics are extremely misleading. The percentage of wealthy Asians is higher than the percentage of wealthy Whites, which is what skews the data you provided. You’re attributing this to “less discrimination” or “culture”, while ignoring the fact that Asian immigration has skyrocketed, and the overwhelming majority have been wealthy, highly educated, skilled, and/or incoming earning.
According to Pew Research (9/28/2017), 73% of adult Asians in America were born in another country. The Asian population in America grew by 72% between 2000-2015.
Keep in mind that both our statistics include Indians as Asians. And as poor as most Indians are, those who come here are very much on the high end.
You keep referring to my point as geography and luck, but that’s not my point at all. It’s about significant differences in the experiences that brought different groups to this country and significant differences in opportunities, location and treatment.
Are you suggesting everyone had everything the same to begin with or are you suggesting that these differences don’t matter?
The counter-point with the Vietnamese isn’t that there were all these doctors… the point is that you had the broad spectrum of the Vietnamese, with a disproportionate amount of “higher end” in terms of skills, education, etc… coming into a country where they were placed, with assistance, in areas where there were excellent schools and opportunities.
Any poor, uneducated, unskilled Vietnamese person who would’ve just be placed in say Southern Mississippi would’ve likely had a much different experience.
“you also propose the idea that ‘kids in wealthy families will grow up rich and kids in poor families will remain poor’”
You’re misquoting which is part of the reason why you’re missing the point. Statistically, people don’t change much from one economic class to another in the span of 1-2 generations and Statistically, black kids born to a wealthy family are likely to be wealthy as adults. White kids born to an impoverished family are likely to be poor as adults. There’s no correlation to race as an inherent factor as opposed to other social-economic factors.
The point being that if you take an entire group of people and rip them from their country, kill most of then along the way, enslave the survivors for hundreds of years (including rape, torture and other human rights abuses), then free them, but don’t allow them to go to good schools, have good jobs or live in good communities for another 100 years or so, then open the doors (but not really), you can’t expect an equal outcome to those living in good communities with good schools and already starting out with a better financial footing.
Hence the answer to the question… why in 2017 does wealth remain correlated with race.
“how do you explain hundreds millions of improvised Chinese becoming middle class in China and how starving Irish (from peasant uneducated backgrounds) making it in USA”
How do I explain economic booms such as what China experienced (within their largely homogeneous country)? That’s another topic.
As for the Irish Americans… they somewhat prove my point, not yours. Irish Americans faced discrimination and largely lived impoverished in America for hundreds of years. It wasn’t until after the Civil War when attitudes changed greatly and discrimination was reduced that things really started to change.
Irish Americans were allowed, for the large part, to take part in several significant boom times that occurred within the US since Reconstruction while Irish ghettos and poverty lingered on for quite some time after that.
Nonetheless, Irish were accepted in jobs, schools, and communities… heck even allowed to become President, long before the Civil Rights Act was passed.
Shorter answer: The Irish became White a long time ago, and even then, it took a long time for social-economic parity.
“According to your theory if they were poor they should remain so.”
First, it’s not my theory… wiki Economic Mobility or Social-Econcomic Mobility along with the Great Gatsby Curve. Additionally, that’s not what I’m saying or what these theories state at all.
“as for no racial differences, i don’t really know what to say to that. I believe all races have talents etc, they might even be similar — but i do know there are cultural differences.”
Well one thing you could say is that there is no credible study to date that shows any correlation in racial differences to income or wealth in the US. If you really want to learn more on this, read the Bell Curve, but only if you then read any of the number of counter books/articles that rip it apart.
As far as the second part, yes, I’m not arguing that there aren’t cultural differences. However, the circumstances, opportunities, and experiences have a direct impact both on income/wealth as well as what makes up the cultural differences in America.
Imagine doing this…
Go to a family in America where the mother doesn’t need to work and the father is able to provide for whatever the kids could ever want. The mother is free to join the PTA, go to parent teacher conferences, hire tutors, and enforce education and discipline on the kids so that they can make them proud… perhaps taking over the father’s business… or whatever because they can go to any university or be hired for any job… just like they were, if they study/work hard enough.
Now go to a family in America that has lived in what used to be a plantation, and for generations had no mobility, crappy schools, crime, poverty, etc… The father may be gone… shot, imprisoned, deserted, etc… while the mother has no time for any of that. Even if she did, the kids aren’t looking at the same opportunities anyway… study harder? With old ratty books and no computers?
It’s going to be a different experience and the culture in each one of those situations is going to be heavily influenced by the circumstances.
“Just look at the countries colonized by southern hispanic countries vs those by Northern European”
That’s a different subject, but I’d recommend reading Guns, Germs and Steel.
While we seem to be arguing deep into the details, there are many points of agreement here. For example, yes, native culture, religion, etc… all plays a role, but go back to my original comment. That’s not what I’m arguing against.
Further, I’ve been making no pro-SJW policy arguments. Look at my original comment where I state, “With all of this, I’m not making excuses. I’m not suggesting there should be preferential treatment, reparations, or anything of the sort,” as well as, “What makes America so great is that we’re at a point where opportunity is there. Personal responsibility, motivation, ambition, dedication, etc… are the biggest factors. Although yes, there are some unfair factors (in both directions in terms of advantages and disadvantages for minorities), but those are being ironed out.”
don’t want to debate it anymore , like i said it’s pointless
just want to add
yes i read germs guns and steel and vast number of other books on the subject
I lived in New York for a while and had friends in the bronx
I also lived four years near Detroit (years ago, some parts with burnt boarded homes are more ‘war torn’ than some third world countries
btw i didn’t learn all stuff from ‘books’
when i was younger i worked for over ten years in Asia
my bother was a tech manager in shanghai, Hanoi and Singapore
(just went to cambodia, typing this in singapore, going to malaysia next)
I’VE PERSONALLY SEEN BOAT PEOPLE LAND ON A BEACH. men Women kids waded in stunned quickly surrounded by local security troops.
(besides all trauma i’ve described previously that these people suffered i forgot to mention many of these suffered years of war, many lost half or more of their families. to anyway think that some folks whose ancestors left the plantation 100 plus years ago and are now living in the richest country in the world have it HARDER than these folks and therefore find more difficult than boat people to achieve success in usa beggars credulity. i say it one more time —attitude plays a huge part in success which is ignored)
i’ve also been held hostage for several hours by machete wielding Asian gangsters while hiking in the jungle, stumbled into a muslim riot while walking in third world country, was kicked and punched and saved by a Chinese cab drive who drove and asked me to jump into his cab, spoke to kidnap victim who was left tied up in a rubber plantation, hung out with illegal immigrants in USA some of whom had walked across the desert from Mexico ( they trusted me enough that i got to visit the house they were staying in the USA) i got along with hispanics in my younger days so much i got invited to watch illegal street racing in the Bronx —but i chickened out of the invite….. Hispanic friends would bring me food because they thought i wasn’t eating enough because i was a student ( working part time as a Mac graphics artist).
i might sound like a total asshat hating some groups, but no i’m actually on the extreme other end wanting fairness for EVERYONE and REAL not politicizied solutions. i actually think some progressive Hispanics etc agree with me and want real respect instead of politicized SJW games like diversity rules today.
You said you didn’t want to debate it further, but then went on to debate it further.
You’d have a much better understanding of the situation if you were to read through these comments again, and look at what I wrote and how you’ve misquoted me in response.
“I’VE PERSONALLY SEEN BOAT PEOPLE LAND ON A BEACH…to anyway think that some folks whose ancestors left the plantation 100 plus years ago and are now living in the richest country in the world have it HARDER than these folks and therefore find more difficult than boat people to achieve success in usa beggars credulity.”
Again, you’re ignoring several facts completely.
1) You’ve used misleading statistics to show higher income among all Asians (including Indians) and are then using the experiences of a small minority of that group.
2) You’re ignoring the fact that even of those boat people, they represented a broad spectrum of people, and not just the unskilled, untalented and uneducated. Meanwhile most Asian immigrants have come to this country recently and have been wealthy and educated.
3) You’re ignoring the fact that those boat people were relocated into communities with very good schools, community support, and job opportunities.
4) You’re describing the hardship of one group, while ignoring the much longer and worse situation of another. If you think African Americans just “left the plantation 100+ years ago” and then had equal opportunity, then you’re seriously misinformed. More likely, you’re simply just ignoring that they stayed on those plantations under virtual slavery for many years and up until very recently had legal discrimination preventing them from attending decent schools, getting jobs or moving to good communities. While the law supports moving today, there are still enforcement issues, but worse, when you live somewhere with crappy schools, you’re going to get a crappy education, and with no family wealth “moving to a better area” simply isn’t always an option.
Again, not my theory, social-economic mobility, while affecting different races statistically and with different histories and experiences, isn’t inherently a race-based issue
You seem to want to turn this into a SJW debate despite the fact that I’ve not only spoken in terms against SJW policies, but have repeatedly mentioned that none of what I’m saying should be applied to that debate.
“i’m actually on the extreme other end wanting fairness for EVERYONE and REAL not politicizied solutions.”
What makes you think I’m any different?
My argument all along goes back to my original comment.
You seem to be starting at the solution and working backwards to define the problem. I’m stating facts and citing statistics that accurately portray the problem as not inherently being race based, which is why our solutions may be the same as no where am I advocating preferential treatment or any other SJW action.
The solution for economic success must be raising black kids by white parents. This seems to be the motive of Democrat social spending except wealth transfer doesn’t include teaching personal responsibility or cultural beliefs that encourage respectful and productive behaviors.
I don’t think your question is difficult to answer and isn’t the elephant in the room. Perhaps the real question is how other groups can join the ranks of those that have greater wealth. This is where the differences of opinions are; how to facilitate this change.
It must be due to a racial bias, since those black pimps and drug dealers have pretty high incomes; just look at all the gold chains and watches they buy.
Hmmm, I’ll bet Rolex is another bigoted company since they don’t have any boutique stores in the slums either. Those bastards!
Apple has always focused on hight-traffic, high-income areas, malls, and neighborhoods. Apple will put stores wherever there is a lot of money and people.
In the early days of the Apple Stores, that was seen as a liability, i.e. the rent would be too high and the stores would fail.
Businesses, tend to put stores where they can make the most money, it’s not that hard to understand.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/Race-differences-in-average-IQ-are-largely-genetic.aspx
Strategies to raise income for the population at large will raise Apple prospects and growth for the company and our citizens -and other citizens outside of the USA
Apple only puts its stores in shopping centers like any other businesses. plain and simple.
None of the Apple stores in NYC are in shopping centres.
Most of the stores loated in cities around the US (and world) aren’t in shopping centres; they are storefronts on city streets, often, but not exclusively, in parts of the city with a lot of retail shops (5th Avenue in NYC, UES on Madison Ave in NYC).
All of the Apple Stores in Los Angeles are in malls.
The Pasadena Store is not in a mall. It is in a retail corridor within short walking distance to residences. The Americana is in a mixed-use Rick Caruso development in Glendale.
Pasadena is not el-lay …
Where the heck did you get that idea? Not true. Is any Flagship Store in a Shopping Center (enclosed mall)? No! In the US alone, SF, NYC, Houston, LA, Chicago, etc. all have Flagship stores and they are either free standing or located in a special landmark building such as NYC’s Grand Central Terminal or other such location, or they might be underground such as the Cube in NYC on 5th Ave. Other US stores may be in shopping centers (malls) that are small, can be crowded if the city has only one or two stores. But to say they are ALL in shopping centers is absolutely wrong!
Apple’s wealth and success is a magnet to absolutely every single group, government, or cause who either want a handout or just to leverage the attention everyone pays to all things Apple.
Well, surprise, surprise, surprise. Cook is White. Go figure….
Why don’t bronx residents just order online? They do have computers, right?? Or maybe not….hmm…..
As i’m white i wonder why Apple would only put its stores in white neiborhood only. Black people have no money to spend in Apple stores? Would have it be the same thing if Tim »Cock » builts his stores in LGBT neiborhood? These people have lots of money to spend! Deosn’t he know that? If that’s not a racist reason, i wonder what it is!
Apple is a global company.
Right in the headline: 251 of its 270 stores are in majority-white ZIP codes.
Wikipedia though: 498 stores across 22 countries worldwide as of July 2017 and some of those countries have a minority of Caucasians there (countries like Japan and South Korea to name a couple) not that is should make any difference.
Another article underlying the insecure status of that woeful terrorist nation desperation for attention.
Very good point. FYI there are no Official Apple stores in South Korea. However there are plenty in Japan and even China. Your point still stands.
The SJWs never stop.
It’s called market research.
Not too many Porsche dealerships in Bangladesh.
But plenty of Liquor Stores in da hood.
Crime stats probably figure a good amount in the decision.
Being as America is something like 85% white, wouldn’t we expect almost all zip codes to be majority white? [facepalm]
Non-Hispanic whites were 62.6% of the population in 2010. Given that other groups have higher birth and immigration rates, it is probably a good deal less than that now. Although minorities were only 37.2% of the general population, they included over 50% of the children under one year of age.
About 13% of the population is foreign-born; roughly 45% of those are naturalized citizens and a majority of the rest are legal US residents. About 20% of the US population speaks a language other than English at home.
The population includes something over 40% each of middle-class and working-class families, with 12% lower-class and less than 10% upper-class.
Estimates of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender population run between 3.5 and 4.1%.
About 82% of Americans live in cities or suburbs, with half of those in cities over 50,000 population.
So, the notion of the “typical American” as native-born, white, straight, middle-class, and living with small-town values is increasingly out of touch with reality.
“So, the notion of the “typical American” as native-born, white, straight, middle-class, and living with small-town values is increasingly out of touch with reality.”
That is your conflated opinion and certainly out of touch with reality …
Those are the numbers from the US Census Bureau. If you choose not to believe them, there is no helping you.
Unfortunately, you have a serious reading comprehension problem. You are also incapable of addressing my comments head on and instead deflect and somehow suggest I have a problem with the gubmint numbers and need help. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Let’s do this again:
“So, the notion of the “typical American” as native-born, white, straight, middle-class, and living with small-town values is increasingly out of touch with reality.”
My response: That is your conflated opinion and certainly out of touch with reality …
More specific: extrapolation on your part to suggest WITHOUT EVIDENCE that somehow white straights with values are, your words, “increasingly out of touch with reality.”
It is YOU, FAKE conservative, who is out of touch with reality …
Really, GoeB, I am quite serious that you need to hire a tutor and learn to read English. Anyone who speaks American as a native language, as opposed to (for example) a troll paid by the Russians to sow dissent in our society, could parse a simple sentence that says the notion of average Americans as residents of Mayberry RFD is out of touch with reality.
I never said, and no English-speaker could reasonably believe I said, that people who DO live in Mayberry are out of touch with reality… unless they think that their particular minority group is still a large majority that is entitled to exclude everybody else.
Once again, you have a serious reader comprehension problem!
Your tedious deflective excuses off topic Mayberry ASIDE, address my posts! …
Apple places its stores in areas concentrated with wealthy folk cause this is the clientele Apple is desiring.
“Willie, why do you rob banks?”
“Cuz, ‘dats where da’ money is.” – Willie Sutton
I thought Apple only placed Apple Stores where there is no parking.
I’m sure that Apple do return of investment and revenue per square foot analysis for their sites.
Even in the Bay Area where Apple are headquartered, the stores are located in the high end malls and shopping districts.
So it’s now wrong for a company to choose to have stores in locations that benefit them most economically? Pure leftist idiocy…
As much as Neo-Feudalism nauseates me, the better analysis here would be that Apple doesn’t put stores in areas of low economic wealth. To which I respond: DUH. Go study marketing 101. You sell to your market. You don’t put a store where it’s going to fail. Supply where there is demand.
Sorry Bronx. Thank you MDN for sane insight on this subject.
Time to do some ‘splanin.
1- This country is majority caucasian, so any place they were likely to put these stores would reflect that.
2- Whites statistically make more than most minority groups in the US, so if you target income, it will also be reflected.
3- Apple is a business in operation to make money selling rather high priced items to people who can afford them. They are not a do-gooder not-for-profit and must answer to shareholders along well defined legal fiduciary requirements. So, no low income, Android markets need apply.
Here is a map of NYC showing who uses what mobile OS. The Bronx is Android country
https://www.mapbox.com/bites/00245/brands/#13/40.7993/-73.9400
Maybe this is why…
http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/man-robbed-of-iphone-during-face-to-face-sale-1.3690918
We have an Apple Store, 2 Universities and a College.
Population is mostly white.
5 Steps, Available To All Americans, To Avoid Poverty:
Graduate From High School
Don’t Have Children Out of Wedlock
Get Married, Stay Married
No Matter What It Is, Get a Job
Resist Drugs and Alcohol
People who live by these five rules tend to succeed irrespective of their race, creed, gender, or sexual preference. Sadly, it seems that some pockets of our society either don’t believe in this, haven’t been exposed to this, or are being steered away from the idea that each of us can play a significant role in where we, as individuals, end up.
Well done. Smple and true regardless of race or zip code …
Apple will be having research & reviews for new stores AND upgrading existing stores. I know that the store in Tulsa is too small for the traffic they have. They could easily double the size of the store if there was a vacant store space. That his going to be the issue with a lot of stores – all attracting attention if the Stores Division.
Premier Stores, like the New York stores, consumes a lot of attention from everyone involved in designing and preparing new Apple Stores.
I have a feeling that Apple has a pretty specific plan for the next 3 to 5 years, minimum. New stores and upgrading existing stores. The Bronx is somewhere on that list.