“Apple’s much-touted new operating system, OS X Leopard, is in some ways worse than Windows Vista, says the founder of the Linux open source project, Linus Torvalds,” Nick Miller reports for The Sydney Morning Herald. “Torvalds was in Melbourne last week for the linux.conf.au conference and was invited to pass judgement on OS X versus Windows Vista in a wide-ranging interview.”
“‘I don’t think they’re equally flawed – I think Leopard is a much better system,’ he said. ‘(But) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for. Their file system is complete and utter crap, which is scary,'” Miller reports.
Miller reports, “He poured scorn on the modern trend to treat a new version or update of an operating system as a cause for major celebration and marketing. ‘An operating system should be completely invisible,’ he said. ‘To Microsoft and Apple (it is) a way to control the whole environment … to force people to upgrade their applications and hardware.'”
Full article here.
[Thanks to MacDailyNews Reader “bioness” for the heads up.]
MacDailyNews Take: Apple is methodically making their move to ZFS. Filesystem changes must be carefully considered for platforms with large user bases – which is something that Torvalds has absolutely no experience with on the desktop. The fact is, the performance of Linux on the desktop is, to turn a phrase, “complete and utter crap.” In January 2008, Net Applications’ measure of operating system usage share online put Linux at 0.67%. Ouch, just 0.67%, after all of these years! Apple’s Mac OS X, even with its filesystem that so concerns Linus, but which also happens to work perfectly well for users, stands at 7.57%, more than 11 times that of Linux. In fact, Apple’s iPhone and iPod touch already hold 0.17%. Apple’s Wi-Fi mobile devices will likely surpass Linux on the desktop this year. Linux users, and Torvalds himself, should give up the ghost. Linux on the desktop is a pipe dream. (Linux in the server room is a totally different story.)
As for an operating system being completely invisible, Mac OS X does a much better job of getting out of the user’s way than Windows or the various Linux flavors, which, from what we’ve seen, all seem hell-bent on making ugly clones of the Windows UI failure in what seems to be some desperate attempt to keep the delusional fantasy of Linux on the desktop alive.
Hey, brother, we didn’t ask for a war, but we’re well-prepared to fight, if you insist.
Apple has shareholders and employees and infrastructure. It’s a company, not a commune. To criticize them for charging for their work is disingenuous and/or naive. Obviously, if Mr. Torvalds has proven anything, it’s that you can’t get world class user interfaces from disorganized, disconnected, and unfunded ragtag bands of volunteers. The money Apple makes goes into perfecting the experience for the end user. Linux has so much to learn in the area of UI – the most important area for people who use computers, by the way – that it’s impossible to quantify. Even Windows is better.
Mr. Torvalds won’t like to hear this (and perhaps that’s why he’s lashing out), but, usage figures prove that, of the roughly 10% who are informed about what they are buying, almost all of us would rather pay for Mac OS X than have Linux for free on the desktop.
Now, all of that said, in a way we do kinda sorta agree with Torvalds on this general concept: The perfect world has no place for the very flawed Windows, the “choice” of the uninformed.
Our perfect world? Mac OS X on desktops, notebooks, and mobile devices (in the hands of users) and Mac OS X Server and/or Linux in the server room.
[UPDATE: 2:56pm EST: Attempted to clarify in the Take that most Mac users have made an informed choice (so have Linux users), while most Windows users have not (or they wouldn’t be using Windows, they’d be using Macs). Read any random bunch of independent OS reviews and Apple Mac is the clear choice. Much more than software lock-in, Windows depends on ignorance to survive (and even thrive) today.]
I use Linux at work, and it’s okay, but nowhere near as easy or friendly as OS X. The fact that it is completely open source is nice, but in the end it’s the experience that counts.
Linux is used a lot in the visual effects industry, because of its superior memory management and 64 bit support (Only now with Leopard can Apple compete in this space).
Good ‘ol Linus! He must wish Linux was a bit more like OS X…rather than the sticking plaster covered Meccano kit(s) it still is…
As always the stats speak for themselves
While I appreciate the entire Linux micro-universe, If you want to build something from scratch and tinker your life away (remember Heathkit and the Jr. High A/V club?)… good for you. Have fun with Linux.
Me? I need to get things done. As quickly and as efficiently as possible. I’ll stick with Mac OS X, thank you.
Of course Mac OS X isn’t perfect. From what I’ve read about it, the promise of ZFS in OS X in a few years is pretty tantalizing.
Apple’s apparent plans for OS X everywhere are pretty tantalizing, too!
Well, my son (13) has installed Linux on his Lenovo PC that we were required to buy for him for school, and believe me, the experience of using Linux is FAR superior to his having to use Windows for about 6 months before he installed Linux. Just being free of the virus threat is enough reason to switch…. We’re lobbying the school hard, meantime, to go with Macbooks next time they do a laptop refresh. Fingers crossed it’ll work and he can dump both for OSX!
Did someone steal his blankey????
To say an operating system should be invisible is nonsense. You still have to interact with it on some level depending on what you’re doing. It shouldn’t be totally invisible – it just shouldn’t be needlessly visible.
Linux is a great ideal but it seems that the ideal matters above all else. At least with Apple, Macs and OS X we have a great overall system to justify our passion.
Don’t know about file systems to talk.. maybe Torvalds is right.
his email address:
torvalds@transmeta.com
Yes Linus, show us how well you understand the consumer desktop compared to Steve Jobs who brought the GUI and personal computers to the masses.
If you think you can make market share headway on desktop Linux based just upon a improved file system, go for it. Don’t let us stop you.
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Just remember we all are still friends against Microsoft, after all Steve Jobs used Linux at Pixar’s renderfarm.
Just remember your place is in the server room though, not on the desktop. Again your welcome to try though.
God knows we Mac users don’t like being tied to Apple’s limited hardware line. OS X/PC would be a better choice than Linux on the desktop.
MDN, you do a serious disservice in lampooning Linux on the desktop. Remember that WebKit — the foundation of Safari which is, in many ways, the most important component of the iPhone — is derived from part of a Linux desktop environment project.
“‘(But) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for.”
There is a huge difference in saying that “OSX is in some ways worse than Vista” and “In some ways worse to program for that Vista.”. Everyday people on the street don’t give a crap about programming, only about usability.
That being said i still hope OSX goes ZFS in the future.
@GUI Man
“God knows we Mac users don’t like being tied to Apple’s limited hardware line. OS X/PC would be a better choice than Linux on the desktop.”
Speak for yourself. I can’t find a single Mac user in our department that agrees with that assertion.
“… treat a new version or update of an operating system as a cause for major celebration and marketing…”
This is to help the programmer and user have confidence that their program will work. My apps work under Linux, but it is hard to give confidence that they will work since I can’t control the version of Linux or plugins.
Many programs require Leopard for the Core… programs, but there were equal jumps with MacOS X and MacOS 7. The amount Apple charge for the OS and the lack of registration would lead me to believe it is not the cash-cow it is for MicroWho?
Linux is good, well, getting better, but OS X still stands head and shoulders above every other OS available today.
My $0.02
I believe he’s not with Transmeta anymore, though.
While I consider Linus as a brilliant guy (I met him personally once), he’s not the most diplomatic guy.
When I met him, he was an OK guy, not flashy or anything. But he’s very blunt about his comments, and he always leaves a lot of open spaces to be bombarded when he writes comments like this.
Sure, ZFS or the Linux file system is better. Sure, the Mac filesystem is already old and needs an overhaul. But it would be enough to say: “The issue is, the file system is already old, and Linux choice of file system is much better”, instead of calling it “crap”.
He has a point… but an awful way to express it. My suggestion: Don’t crucify Torvalds. Understand his way of expression and take what’s valuable.
About better or worse:
I think Mac OS X is MUCH better on the desktop. I still like Linux on the server. I don’t like Microsoft for any of them.
I use Ubuntu at work for DNA analyses and the like. It is a nice speedy operating system (I use it on an eight core Mac Pro). However, I would NOT use it for everyday work as OSX is much friendlier and, lets face it, more fun to use.
Thanks for the comment Linus, now go back out to play.
Linux is OK on the “desktop,” but it is not nearly as refined and “comfortable” as Mac OS X. I’d probably use Fedora or Ubuntu instead of Windows if Mac OS X disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow, but that’s not saying much. If Linux has a better “file system,” I say that’s great for Linux. But I guess I don’t use Macs because of the file system.
I have lost quite a bit of respect for Linus……
As a computer science student, I fail to see how the Apples’ HFS+ file system is crap. Based on what Linus?
I think it suits multimedia files much better than the Linux file system.
I have used linux, windows, and Mac OS X…. From what I can tell HFS+ works better than the other two…..
In fact, Linux and Windows are not even comparable to overall experience of OS X. That’s why the majority of our Professors and grad students in our department have switched to Macs!
I think MDN needs to distinguish between raw Linux and Linux with a GUI glued on top. Big, big difference. Linux at the command line rocks!
If my GUI looked like Linux’s without some third party open source add-on, I would want my operating system to be invisible, too.
“Linux at the command line rocks!”
Holy shit you must have fun trainspotting in your spare time…
i’m kinda wondering the same as shinobi is – i know zfs is supposed to be somehow better, but what is actually WRONG with hfs, other than it’s been around for a long time?
Ok, I agree that HFS+ has had a nice long run and I’m glad Apple is working on the most advanced replacement for it. The last major hurdle for ZFS will be to make it bootable and stable. Then we can all relax with confidence after Apple rolls it out.
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Well, I’ve run dual boot OS X/PPCLinux and a stand-alone Linux server for years on the same cpu (a machine that was pulled from the lab because it couldn’t handle Windows’ inflated hardware requirements). Yes – the Linux filesystem was better than HFS. I’m not so sure about HFS+; Apple may have passed Linux base system. NFS still seems better designed to me.
In one sense he’s right, but substitute “file” for “operating”:
A file system should be completely invisible.
to the average user. And here the Mac far outweighs Linux – just look at partitioning requirements for an install in a lot of distros.
Before flaming Linus, remember his penchant for overstated bluntness and that English is not his first language.